I've been using five subs in a distributed bass array ever since learning about Geddes research many years ago. Great video, but two things unmentioned that are very hard to convey and get anyone who hasn't done this to believe: one, with four subs placement becomes much less important to the point it is trivial. Four subs results in so many much lower level modes being distributed around the room that bass becomes flat even without doing anything. Especially if you are able to locate them asymmetrically, that is, each one a different distance from a corner, and also different than the mains. And two, the smooth articulate and effortlessly powerful low bass produced by a DBA creates a sense of spaciousness and envelopment that is impossible to believe. You just have to experience it for yourself. When I first did mine there was one time I put on Tracy Chapman to enjoy the terrific low bass, only the first track I thought had no low bass- yet it sounded completely different! Tremendous sense of space and envelopment that simply was not there when the DBA was off. As if the room walls melted away and you were there in the studio instead. This even in spite of the fact there was no discernible low bass! Finally, when using just one or two subs their quality and power is very important. When using four each sub is putting out so much less power that this is just not all that big a deal any more. You didn't explore this, but you are much better off using four small cheap subs than one or two much bigger more expensive and powerful subs. Hard to believe but test it and you will see, er hear, for yourself!
Thanks Ron. Excellent tutorial for peak integration and performance.of subs with mains. Two caveats that some may need to consider. #1 For those using smaller bookshelf speakers (4-5.5" single bass driver on speaker) the sub crossover may need to be set at 100-110hz in order to deliver more bass impact (sub placement will be quite tricky at such a high cross over). #2 Caveat: For those who want a large scale dynamic presentation of their music, while using speakers that start distort above 85 dbs, crossover on both subs and mains at 100-120hz (mini dsp or amp with built in sub management will be required) .
I've had my REL T0 sub between open baffles for a while now -- it's raised about 18" from the floor on a wooden stool where its downward-facing driver is on a level with the centre of the 15" full range drivers for the O/B's. For me, the benefit of a sub isn't just for the bass. I think it makes for better, more holographic, engaging and atmospheric sound right across the frequency range. Don't know why that should be, but it's my subjective observation.
I've watched many, many videos on this topic and Ron's brings this to a new level. Thank you for your presentation! I learned a great deal and having the sound clips, presenting as you did were very revealing.
The thing is that most people dont understand how to set up Subwoofer correctly and what (for example) is the sense behind an Double Bass Array, Single Bass Array or Multi Sub Config is (and how you calculate it). Subwoofers (when set up via DSP correctly) acting like Active Roommode Compensation Devices. Thanks for the video, wish more ,,Stereo,, Channels look a little bit deeper in different Setup Types & Concepts. I had this week an discussion with an Hifi / High End Dealer wich also have an RUclips Channel, and his mindset about DSP, Measurements/REW, Subwoofers are so far behind that you cant argue sometimes with those people about ,,newer,, tech and ways of music listening.
I’m in the same boat as you, my friend. Took my 4 subs and moved from corner loading to a DBA and have zero desire to look back. The absolute best bass you could ever have is only possible through either hundreds of thousands of dollars in specific room construction and treatments or a DBA. I literally had my setup reconfigured in about 45mins to a usable DBA. I’ve since retuned it multiple times to eke out every bit of performance I can just to see what’s possible. My bass from 20hz-150hz decays 50db in under 125ms and has a ruler-flat response in unsmoothed graphs in REW. You literally can’t beat a DBA.
Setting up "a" sub is a process, a challenge, and ultimately never gets the job done. Ever. Setting up four subs is simple, easy, and always produces stellar SOTA results. Choose wisely.
I use an Atmos Pre Amp / DAC with 4x Sub Outputs. From there XLR to the Speakers (Active) and XLR to the ImgStage Line PA Amp for the Subwoofers (DIY Scan Speak). Works perfectly. Without any Pre Amp outputs, just an Stereo amp where you just can plug in a Pair of Speakers its difficult. Its not easy with normal Stereo Based Amplifiers. When you buy Pre Made Subs you can use High Level Input but its not the best option
Good question I am also interested to know Ron’s setup - line level, channel splitter or seperate outs from DAC, minidsp, sub pre-outs etc etc - lots of options that can influence approach. I use second set of line outs to left and right sub and amplifier for mains from my benchmark dac3L
I've caught quite a few bass , they make a really deep thump when they the hit the floor of the boat. And I have treble hooks on all my lures. Used to have a state of the art boat but I sold it and bought something more mid range. When I get my depth sounder facing in exactly the right direction its image opens right up and becomes almost holographic.
Thanks Ron. I do think the room dominates, to the point that any placement scheme is likely not the ideal way to go. Personally using measurements for placement was a total game changer for me. This included doing real time analysis using pink noise, with the measurement mic in the listening position, while moving the sub around on a dolly to find best candidates 😊Then follow up with sweeps to find “the one”(position), being mindful of the time domain in addition to amplitude curves. But first I really need to find the best listening position for bass, which was done by placing a single speaker in a corner and walking the room swinging the mic in a small pattern, again while playing pink noise and using the real time analyzer. With everything in the Goldilocks position, exact crossover point and sub gain becomes so much more forgiving and no more constantly turning the sub up and down, depending on program material. Now, I’m a subjectivist all day long, but moving my setup into a small bass challenged room, sent me down this path after trying maybe 6 different dual sub setups. In the end my bass is better than it’s ever been and honestly I could do without the 2 sub, which was a total necessity with the more “analog” approach to placement.
Good video overall. A measurement based approach is the best thing you advocated for in the video. Ultimate? No way. Ultimate is a sub in each corner of your room optimized with Multi Sub Optimizer and a Minidsp ( or one of the new wave forming solutions). My systems bass is epic as a result of the approach above. This also optimizes for multiple seats unlike your approach Ron. This means any seat on my listening couch has tight, punchy, extended, musical bass.
Absolutely fantastic video Ron! I have been searching all over the place trying to find something like this and to no avail, nothing. Now I’m really not sure if I’m ready to spend over $5000 on a pair subwoofers to get the achieved results, but if I start saving up now, as long as I only have 1 foot in the grave, my ears will still be above ground. Thanks again.
@@PP-nh1lv I meant the single sub worked best in the audio examples, at least the most noticeable. When I placed the sub in my friend's studio I did simulations and the optimal place would have been behind his chair, but that wasn't an option. Second best option was in the corner with the woofer aimed at the side wall, the speakers pretty close to the back wall (was also necessary because of space reasons). You can use REW to simulate your room and move the speakers and sub around to see what would happen more or less. Also measure of course
To me, it sounded like a good deal of clarity in the mids and highs got lost with subwoofers. Everything but the lows sounded a little muffled. I think I would have turned down the subs a tiny bit more. Preferred the double troubles, the Arendals were a bit overpowering for my taste. Great video, and marry Christmas. 🥳
The thing is that most people dont understand how to set up Subwoofer correctly and what for example is the sense behind an Double Bass Array is. Subwoofers (when set up via DSP correctly) acting like Active Roommode Compensation Devices. Thanks for the video, wish more ,,Stereo,, Channels look a little bit deeper in different Setup Types & Concepts. I had this week an discussion with an Hifi / High End Dealer wich also have an RUclips Channel, and his mindset about DSP, Measurements/REW, Subwoofers are so far behind that you cant argue sometimes with those people about ,,newer,, tech and ways of music listening. I use four Subs (thinking about more) and its awesome to hear the ,,unlimited,, power from the whole setup because the main speaker dont need to work hard (and i use Neumann KH150 for Music & Hometheatre, wich can go extremly loud for their size but still prescise)
Hi Ron, I have main stereo speakers that are about 50 litres per cabinet with twin 8 inch drivers. The cabinets are dual chamber bass reflex and I have them in an extensively acoustically treated listening room. The bass is fantastic quality and very extended. I don't feel the need for a sub woofer. Some time ago my neighbour complained that my system made her whole house shake. What is your opinion on dual chamber bass reflex? My speakers were designed by Dr Paul Mills.
If you understand and appreciate the full "audio" spectrum then having +20 db at 16Hz should be seriously considered. Aside from REW you should also be familiar with "Multi-Sub Optimizer". Latest release is Version 2.1.1: Released 2024-12-04
I question the overall relevance and accuracy because of the common settings and crossover point required for LFE and THX/high definition surround sound. That is 80 Hz for the subwoofer. And you can use Dirac for the surround sound speaker setup, and a mini dsp box for the subwoofers. I have always used the 80 Hz setting crossover point for all subwoofers with no issues.
What if you have subs with opposing woofers? Do you face them with one towards the listening position (and the other facing away) or turn the sub 90 degrees so the woofers are pointing sideways from the listening position? Or...is it just a matter of taste (or maybe measurements)?
A few questions 1.For measuring the subwoofer/speaker do you keep the noise at "pink random" or "pink periodic" in the generator tool? 2. Also do you use full range or sub cal or speaker cal while measuring the 'Subwoofer' in the generator tool? TIA. Regards.
Every stereo audiophile system should use a subwoofer. Playing with subwoofers for 4 years founded how much spacial information we lost without them and how IMPORTANT is time alignment or phase alignment.
Great video. I have never heard open baffle before and I was impressed by the lack of boominess. Very fast and articulate. How were the subs connected to the source components? Also, I would love to see the track listing used for the demos.
Very good video even if it's not "fair" to judge for example among one sealed sub vs two open baffle subs.... It would have be obviously more difficult and time demanding comparing one sealed vs one open baffle vs two sealed vs two open baffle. I'm not mentioning four sealed vs four open baffle, I care for your back 😂. Thanks for sharing this and especially to focus on measuring the various configurations. Personally I preferred the 2 subs, not boomy and very accurate. Thanks again!
Good question, he did not explain this. I was assuming the mains had no crossover and he just worked with their natural high pass behavior, but maybe not
a good starting point, hope this video helps a lot of people in hifi and bass :) i have a mic and rew, use it and still i end up with tune by ears in the end. but i do have Realtime dsp from listening position. with online tone generator for gain matching and some punchy bass music for phase adjustment you can get far. anything sensible graph my UMIK-1 draws is not what my ear want to hear so i am putting that out there in case anyone else benefit from this. my ear tuning sound better is my point. all depending on the room, speakers and preferences/references of course. and while you are at it with dual subwoofers are they in stereo? because in that case if you can put high pass on those stand mount speakers, increasing the work the subwoofers do up in frequency is the holy grail for that large speaker sound. so it wont sound like a small speaker at 50hz and then huge subwoofer below that. there are some amazing guitar music that tingles the bones high up in the 120hz that small mains and large subwoofers wont get right until you let subwoofers play up high. the large main speaker effect if you will.
Great video and quite informative. Big difference with no subs vs with subs. Very little difference between 1, 2 or 4 subs that I could make out. Maybe the Arendal subs gave a slight increase in depth. Probably a different story listening in room. I will chalk that all up to either your mastery at integrating them into the system or the dreaded youtube compression algorithm. It could not possibly be my 52 yr old ears with a lifetime of loud music and working with heavy equipment, listening on Bose QC 35 headphones. Your vocals were pristine though. Yay mids!!
To my ears the single sub had the most effect, it could even be turned down a little compared to the examples with more subs. Two subs seemed to cancel out a bit more or something. Four subs sounded most controlled but didn't have the same boom as the single sub (on the dummy head at least)
best place for subwoofer is over a trampoline. same as shockmount for mics you want to minimize the transmission of sound through solids don't cause noise pollution to your neighbors.
@TriAmpMyFi wrong. the transmission of your steps soundwaves vibrations to the mic stands causes unwanted low noises, reason why we use shockmounrs like rycotte. similarly the speakers should be holded with elasticity in order to make music only to the air instead of travelling through the solids. personally i use sorbothane full strike insoles under my home studio speakers and trampoline in my garage. and my neighbour can tell the difference. i place rubber sandals to my washing machine so my neighbour won't get the noise pollution. the floor is not absorbing that much because of the elasticity that is decoupling. when i put elastic feet on all my pine furniture, then i get the reverb because they stop absorbing the sound because poor solid contact. the harder you bite the headstock of guitar the more the transmission through solids happens. i am expert on noise pollution. i don't use subwoofers because the only way to reduce lows is with activated carbon, otherwise it passes through everything, like the contaminationbi do suffer from a bassist 2 houses away, but houses touches to each other, adding mass hence sustain and acoustic chambers. if using a simple rebouncer trampoline, the disturbing pollution of bass would be reduced substantially. haven't you built at school when kid a telephone with cord and 2 plastic glasses? you want to tight the cord in order to work. the tension is more efficient. loosen is like elasticity, poor conductor of the waves. if you and the rest of the world would add elasticity between the speakers of tv and your furniture, then your neighbors wouldn't suffer that much intrussion of sound. you could add rubber washers between the drivees and the screws so the box doesn't vibrate that much in the first place. you could build the cabinet so lacks front pannel which is what creates the lows so hold the driver by its magnet instead. or you could have a front pannel made of rubber. you do can prevent your furniture to vibrate in sympathy in euphonia by using elasticity. i solved the question of the title of this video. where to put the subwoofers. if you don't believe me, test it likevi already did my homework. it is measurable fact, objective. yours is just an opinion. test with sonometer, room eq wizard, measurement mics, long cables, recordings manipulated with daw to make only the low frequencies. go ahead then reply again when you did it. until then, chances you've been bothering your neighbours without caring, without putting in their shoes. go to your neighbour house when your subwoofer without elasticity is playing loud. dare to see what happens if adding a elastic dampener shockmount. test it then we talk. this is the inventor of the law of music harmony (1995). the wiser musician on earth. i did research on university doctoral thesis about the noise pollution in my entire neighborhood. and check out Acoustic Fields to learn why activated carbon is the only known substance that absorbs the lows between 20 and 40 hertzs.
Thank you. Really appreciated information. I got job to do. I have a stand-alone house with solid concrete floors. How about yoga mats underneath speakers?
@@G3rain1 Look up HRTF. Dummy head recordings work best on in-ears by the way. Even better when the dummy head has the exact shape of your specific ears and distance between them.
I must admit I listened through my speaker system QUAD ESL 57 and two passive 15” DIY dipole subs (in 100 cm deep H frames made of recycled oak): But the boxed subs were terrible timing wise. The bass was smeared all over the music. Like drawing using a spray can rather than a sharp pencil. The dipole subs sound very accurate, like I prefer. And they stop on a dime, as they should. But I would prefer more complex music than the audiophile but musically in intersting stuff you used. The full range system should be able to play stuff like Queen loud, or jazz like Ben Webster At the Rennaisance or Decca operas convincingly. Why not demonstrate that?
. Sub-Woofers aren't for musical instrument playback. They're for synthetic sounds & low frequency movie effects. Ron's using them here at a cross above 40Hz, which is adding Mono bass (no imaging) to non-full range 2-way stand mounts. Go back and watch Ron's review of the GR-Research 3-way 'Brutes'. They are full range and need no subwoofer to fill-in the missing bass, including stereo imaging, for instrument playback. Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass🔈🔉🔊
I find subs distracting. Give me a well-designed full-range speaker, and I'm happy. There isn't anything musical below 30Hz I'm interested in. Theaters for sound effects, sure.
Agreed. Only if you reeeally can only fit small bookshelf speakers between you and the wall and need to put a sub someplace else it makes sense, or like in case of a 5.1 surround system or soundbar because the spouse hates speakers. If you can fit 2 subs in your room and budget, you can fit 2 full-range speakers in them.
If subs are distracting then they are not set up correctly. You can tune subs to be seamlessly integrated with mains. Sure many people are good without bass slam. Not me or many others. Most small medium size towers can’t play 30-40 HZ with authority. I like that lower octave to have some guts. Like you said room size has a lot to do with it. My bedroom system stand mounts have enough bass. My listening room has two 12s ported tuned to 35HZ and most music you don’t know they are on. listening to metal, EDM or rap they come alive. Fully pressurizing the room.
@ That's one way of looking at it. I would say, what's wrong with your full-range speaker that you need a sub? Having said that, if EDM and Rap are your thing, then the body vibrations you get from a sub make perfect sense.
Holy crap, double sub approach already sounded amazing. This was super helpful! Looking to add a sub (for two subs). Side question (please forgive but) will we get a comprehensive review of the new NX-Bravos? Curious about how that planar sounds in that configuration 🙏🏼
How much latency does the DSP incur? If it's a few milliseconds, you might actually want to place the subs closer than the bookshelfs for time alignment
Happy holidays, Ron! Hope you and the family have a wonderful Christmas and a happy New Year. 🔊🥳🎶🎄💜🎅 “Randy Neuman” 🤣 Not sure I’ve heard his last name before. He just keeps getting more handsome with age…. Thanks, Ron. Another home run of a vid. Appreciate you, man.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
I've been using five subs in a distributed bass array ever since learning about Geddes research many years ago. Great video, but two things unmentioned that are very hard to convey and get anyone who hasn't done this to believe: one, with four subs placement becomes much less important to the point it is trivial. Four subs results in so many much lower level modes being distributed around the room that bass becomes flat even without doing anything. Especially if you are able to locate them asymmetrically, that is, each one a different distance from a corner, and also different than the mains. And two, the smooth articulate and effortlessly powerful low bass produced by a DBA creates a sense of spaciousness and envelopment that is impossible to believe. You just have to experience it for yourself. When I first did mine there was one time I put on Tracy Chapman to enjoy the terrific low bass, only the first track I thought had no low bass- yet it sounded completely different! Tremendous sense of space and envelopment that simply was not there when the DBA was off. As if the room walls melted away and you were there in the studio instead. This even in spite of the fact there was no discernible low bass!
Finally, when using just one or two subs their quality and power is very important. When using four each sub is putting out so much less power that this is just not all that big a deal any more. You didn't explore this, but you are much better off using four small cheap subs than one or two much bigger more expensive and powerful subs. Hard to believe but test it and you will see, er hear, for yourself!
00:00 - Start
05:04 - Double Trouble
06:08 - Arendal 1723 2S
07:23 - Mains First
09:10 - Sound Demo: Mains Only
10:47 - One Subwoofer
17:17 - Sound Demo: One Subwoofer
18:54 - Two Subwoofers
22:50 - Sound Demo: Two Subwoofers
27:04 - Four Subwoofers
28:37 - Sound Demo: Four Subwoofers
34:50 - Final Thoughts
bass is love, love is bass
I expected another dummy called Randy.
😂 😭🤭🤫
Thanks Ron. Excellent tutorial for peak integration and performance.of subs with mains. Two caveats that some may need to consider. #1 For those using smaller bookshelf speakers (4-5.5" single bass driver on speaker) the sub crossover may need to be set at 100-110hz in order to deliver more bass impact (sub placement will be quite tricky at such a high cross over).
#2 Caveat: For those who want a large scale dynamic presentation of their music, while using speakers that start distort above 85 dbs, crossover on both subs and mains at 100-120hz (mini dsp or amp with built in sub management will be required) .
Great job, Ron! I’ve been holding off doing this but now you’ve inspired me. Really appreciate it.
I've had my REL T0 sub between open baffles for a while now -- it's raised about 18" from the floor on a wooden stool where its downward-facing driver is on a level with the centre of the 15" full range drivers for the O/B's.
For me, the benefit of a sub isn't just for the bass. I think it makes for better, more holographic, engaging and atmospheric sound right across the frequency range. Don't know why that should be, but it's my subjective observation.
I've watched many, many videos on this topic and Ron's brings this to a new level. Thank you for your presentation! I learned a great deal and having the sound clips, presenting as you did were very revealing.
The thing is that most people dont understand how to set up Subwoofer correctly and what (for example) is the sense behind an Double Bass Array, Single Bass Array or Multi Sub Config is (and how you calculate it). Subwoofers (when set up via DSP correctly) acting like Active Roommode Compensation Devices. Thanks for the video, wish more ,,Stereo,, Channels look a little bit deeper in different Setup Types & Concepts.
I had this week an discussion with an Hifi / High End Dealer wich also have an RUclips Channel, and his mindset about DSP, Measurements/REW, Subwoofers are so far behind that you cant argue sometimes with those people about ,,newer,, tech and ways of music listening.
I’m in the same boat as you, my friend. Took my 4 subs and moved from corner loading to a DBA and have zero desire to look back. The absolute best bass you could ever have is only possible through either hundreds of thousands of dollars in specific room construction and treatments or a DBA. I literally had my setup reconfigured in about 45mins to a usable DBA. I’ve since retuned it multiple times to eke out every bit of performance I can just to see what’s possible.
My bass from 20hz-150hz decays 50db in under 125ms and has a ruler-flat response in unsmoothed graphs in REW.
You literally can’t beat a DBA.
Setting up "a" sub is a process, a challenge, and ultimately never gets the job done. Ever. Setting up four subs is simple, easy, and always produces stellar SOTA results. Choose wisely.
Those folks are the same who peddle REL subs. They live in the Model T era of audio. .
How did you connect speakers and subs? Did you use any kind of preamp/receiver? What did your setup and connections look like? Thanks
I use an Atmos Pre Amp / DAC with 4x Sub Outputs. From there XLR to the Speakers (Active) and XLR to the ImgStage Line PA Amp for the Subwoofers (DIY Scan Speak). Works perfectly. Without any Pre Amp outputs, just an Stereo amp where you just can plug in a Pair of Speakers its difficult. Its not easy with normal Stereo Based Amplifiers. When you buy Pre Made Subs you can use High Level Input but its not the best option
Good question I am also interested to know Ron’s setup - line level, channel splitter or seperate outs from DAC, minidsp, sub pre-outs etc etc - lots of options that can influence approach. I use second set of line outs to left and right sub and amplifier for mains from my benchmark dac3L
Thanks very helpful video.
I've caught quite a few bass , they make a really deep thump when they the hit the floor of the boat. And I have treble hooks on all my lures. Used to have a state of the art boat but I sold it and bought something more mid range. When I get my depth sounder facing in exactly the right direction its image opens right up and becomes almost holographic.
Thanks Ron. I do think the room dominates, to the point that any placement scheme is likely not the ideal way to go. Personally using measurements for placement was a total game changer for me. This included doing real time analysis using pink noise, with the measurement mic in the listening position, while moving the sub around on a dolly to find best candidates 😊Then follow up with sweeps to find “the one”(position), being mindful of the time domain in addition to amplitude curves. But first I really need to find the best listening position for bass, which was done by placing a single speaker in a corner and walking the room swinging the mic in a small pattern, again while playing pink noise and using the real time analyzer. With everything in the Goldilocks position, exact crossover point and sub gain becomes so much more forgiving and no more constantly turning the sub up and down, depending on program material. Now, I’m a subjectivist all day long, but moving my setup into a small bass challenged room, sent me down this path after trying maybe 6 different dual sub setups. In the end my bass is better than it’s ever been and honestly I could do without the 2 sub, which was a total necessity with the more “analog” approach to placement.
Good video overall. A measurement based approach is the best thing you advocated for in the video. Ultimate? No way. Ultimate is a sub in each corner of your room optimized with Multi Sub Optimizer and a Minidsp ( or one of the new wave forming solutions). My systems bass is epic as a result of the approach above. This also optimizes for multiple seats unlike your approach Ron. This means any seat on my listening couch has tight, punchy, extended, musical bass.
Absolutely fantastic video Ron! I have been searching all over the place trying to find something like this and to no avail, nothing. Now I’m really not sure if I’m ready to spend over $5000 on a pair subwoofers to get the achieved results, but if I start saving up now, as long as I only have 1 foot in the grave, my ears will still be above ground. Thanks again.
One sub worked better than 2 subs IMO
That’s good news. Where did you place your single sub in your room?
@@PP-nh1lv I meant the single sub worked best in the audio examples, at least the most noticeable. When I placed the sub in my friend's studio I did simulations and the optimal place would have been behind his chair, but that wasn't an option. Second best option was in the corner with the woofer aimed at the side wall, the speakers pretty close to the back wall (was also necessary because of space reasons).
You can use REW to simulate your room and move the speakers and sub around to see what would happen more or less. Also measure of course
To me, it sounded like a good deal of clarity in the mids and highs got lost with subwoofers. Everything but the lows sounded a little muffled. I think I would have turned down the subs a tiny bit more. Preferred the double troubles, the Arendals were a bit overpowering for my taste. Great video, and marry Christmas. 🥳
Great video! Thank you.
Your videos are best watched at +1.25 speed...
Great video. I have been using multiple subs for 15 years now.
I do think and active crossover with a highpass would take it even farther.
The thing is that most people dont understand how to set up Subwoofer correctly and what for example is the sense behind an Double Bass Array is. Subwoofers (when set up via DSP correctly) acting like Active Roommode Compensation Devices. Thanks for the video, wish more ,,Stereo,, Channels look a little bit deeper in different Setup Types & Concepts.
I had this week an discussion with an Hifi / High End Dealer wich also have an RUclips Channel, and his mindset about DSP, Measurements/REW, Subwoofers are so far behind that you cant argue sometimes with those people about ,,newer,, tech and ways of music listening.
I use four Subs (thinking about more) and its awesome to hear the ,,unlimited,, power from the whole setup because the main speaker dont need to work hard (and i use Neumann KH150 for Music & Hometheatre, wich can go extremly loud for their size but still prescise)
Hi Ron, I have main stereo speakers that are about 50 litres per cabinet with twin 8 inch drivers. The cabinets are dual chamber bass reflex and I have them in an extensively acoustically treated listening room. The bass is fantastic quality and very extended. I don't feel the need for a sub woofer. Some time ago my neighbour complained that my system made her whole house shake. What is your opinion on dual chamber bass reflex? My speakers were designed by Dr Paul Mills.
Hey! What are the cabinets you have for your vinyl on both sides of the room?
If you understand and appreciate the full "audio" spectrum then having +20 db at 16Hz should be seriously considered.
Aside from REW you should also be familiar with "Multi-Sub Optimizer". Latest release is Version 2.1.1: Released 2024-12-04
Amazing video
I question the overall relevance and accuracy because of the common settings and crossover point required for LFE and THX/high definition surround sound. That is 80 Hz for the subwoofer. And you can use Dirac for the surround sound speaker setup, and a mini dsp box for the subwoofers. I have always used the 80 Hz setting crossover point for all subwoofers with no issues.
What if you have subs with opposing woofers? Do you face them with one towards the listening position (and the other facing away) or turn the sub 90 degrees so the woofers are pointing sideways from the listening position? Or...is it just a matter of taste (or maybe measurements)?
A few questions
1.For measuring the subwoofer/speaker do you keep the noise at "pink random" or "pink periodic" in the generator tool?
2. Also do you use full range or sub cal or speaker cal while measuring the 'Subwoofer' in the generator tool?
TIA.
Regards.
I hate periodic pink noise 😅
Every stereo audiophile system should use a subwoofer. Playing with subwoofers for 4 years founded how much spacial information we lost without them and how IMPORTANT is time alignment or phase alignment.
What standmount speakers are you using?
My guess is that this is a first glimpse of the new collaboration between Ron and Danny? The upper driver looks like his LGK wide-bander.
You can also notice how clean mids and highs get when you add a subwoofer.
Great video. I have never heard open baffle before and I was impressed by the lack of boominess. Very fast and articulate. How were the subs connected to the source components? Also, I would love to see the track listing used for the demos.
Very good video even if it's not "fair" to judge for example among one sealed sub vs two open baffle subs.... It would have be obviously more difficult and time demanding comparing one sealed vs one open baffle vs two sealed vs two open baffle.
I'm not mentioning four sealed vs four open baffle, I care for your back 😂.
Thanks for sharing this and especially to focus on measuring the various configurations.
Personally I preferred the 2 subs, not boomy and very accurate.
Thanks again!
Do the arendals handle the crossover? Like are your speaker cables running into the subs first and then to your speakers?
Good question, he did not explain this. I was assuming the mains had no crossover and he just worked with their natural high pass behavior, but maybe not
Hey, Ron, what is the difference between the UMIK-1 and the UMIK-2 aside from price?
IINM, the UMIK-2 is required for the DIRAC enabled miniDSP devices, while the UMIK-1 or Dayton UMM-6 are quite adequate for the standard versions.
a good starting point, hope this video helps a lot of people in hifi and bass :)
i have a mic and rew, use it and still i end up with tune by ears in the end. but i do have Realtime dsp from listening position.
with online tone generator for gain matching and some punchy bass music for phase adjustment you can get far.
anything sensible graph my UMIK-1 draws is not what my ear want to hear so i am putting that out there in case anyone else benefit from this. my ear tuning sound better is my point. all depending on the room, speakers and preferences/references of course.
and while you are at it with dual subwoofers are they in stereo? because in that case if you can put high pass on those stand mount speakers, increasing the work the subwoofers do up in frequency is the holy grail for that large speaker sound. so it wont sound like a small speaker at 50hz and then huge subwoofer below that.
there are some amazing guitar music that tingles the bones high up in the 120hz that small mains and large subwoofers wont get right until you let subwoofers play up high. the large main speaker effect if you will.
Great video and quite informative. Big difference with no subs vs with subs. Very little difference between 1, 2 or 4 subs that I could make out. Maybe the Arendal subs gave a slight increase in depth. Probably a different story listening in room. I will chalk that all up to either your mastery at integrating them into the system or the dreaded youtube compression algorithm.
It could not possibly be my 52 yr old ears with a lifetime of loud music and working with heavy equipment, listening on Bose QC 35 headphones. Your vocals were pristine though. Yay mids!!
What are the main speakers you are using during this video?
I thought CheapAudioMan was gonna make an appearance 🤣
What audio tracks?
Yep, the Double Troubles sound amazing. Life goals.
Surround yourself in a cocoon of subwoofers and you will be in bass heaven. 😂😂😂😂😂
I am and have been, fully subscribed to this channel for YEARS. WHY RUclips am I NOT GETTING new video notifications!!! 😡😡🤯
That’s concerning.
To my ears the single sub had the most effect, it could even be turned down a little compared to the examples with more subs. Two subs seemed to cancel out a bit more or something. Four subs sounded most controlled but didn't have the same boom as the single sub (on the dummy head at least)
best place for subwoofer is over a trampoline.
same as shockmount for mics
you want to minimize the transmission of sound through solids
don't cause noise pollution to your neighbors.
Microphones produce no sound pressure. Subs over a tramp still excite the neighbor's wall.
@TriAmpMyFi wrong. the transmission of your steps soundwaves vibrations to the mic stands causes unwanted low noises, reason why we use shockmounrs like rycotte.
similarly the speakers should be holded with elasticity in order to make music only to the air instead of travelling through the solids.
personally i use sorbothane full strike insoles under my home studio speakers and trampoline in my garage. and my neighbour can tell the difference.
i place rubber sandals to my washing machine so my neighbour won't get the noise pollution. the floor is not absorbing that much because of the elasticity that is decoupling.
when i put elastic feet on all my pine furniture, then i get the reverb because they stop absorbing the sound because poor solid contact.
the harder you bite the headstock of guitar the more the transmission through solids happens.
i am expert on noise pollution.
i don't use subwoofers because the only way to reduce lows is with activated carbon, otherwise it passes through everything, like the contaminationbi do suffer from a bassist 2 houses away, but houses touches to each other, adding mass hence sustain and acoustic chambers. if using a simple rebouncer trampoline, the disturbing pollution of bass would be reduced substantially. haven't you built at school when kid a telephone with cord and 2 plastic glasses? you want to tight the cord in order to work. the tension is more efficient. loosen is like elasticity, poor conductor of the waves.
if you and the rest of the world would add elasticity between the speakers of tv and your furniture, then your neighbors wouldn't suffer that much intrussion of sound.
you could add rubber washers between the drivees and the screws so the box doesn't vibrate that much in the first place. you could build the cabinet so lacks front pannel which is what creates the lows so hold the driver by its magnet instead. or you could have a front pannel made of rubber.
you do can prevent your furniture to vibrate in sympathy in euphonia by using elasticity.
i solved the question of the title of this video. where to put the subwoofers. if you don't believe me, test it likevi already did my homework. it is measurable fact, objective. yours is just an opinion. test with sonometer, room eq wizard, measurement mics, long cables, recordings manipulated with daw to make only the low frequencies. go ahead then reply again when you did it. until then, chances you've been bothering your neighbours without caring, without putting in their shoes. go to your neighbour house when your subwoofer without elasticity is playing loud. dare to see what happens if adding a elastic dampener shockmount. test it then we talk.
this is the inventor of the law of music harmony (1995). the wiser musician on earth.
i did research on university doctoral thesis about the noise pollution in my entire neighborhood.
and check out Acoustic Fields to learn why activated carbon is the only known substance that absorbs the lows between 20 and 40 hertzs.
Thank you. Really appreciated information. I got job to do. I have a stand-alone house with solid concrete floors. How about yoga mats underneath speakers?
Wear headphones to get spatial effects? Joking right?
splice.com/blog/what-is-binaural-audio/
Are you joking? Do you think your phones speakers are going to recreate the sound as recorded in his environment?
Nope, that’s what I mentioned to wear headphones 4-5 times in the video.
@@Newrecordday2013 That doesn't work. The music is still 100% inside your head.
@@G3rain1 Look up HRTF.
Dummy head recordings work best on in-ears by the way. Even better when the dummy head has the exact shape of your specific ears and distance between them.
SVS had that technology years ago.
I must admit I listened through my speaker system QUAD ESL 57 and two passive 15” DIY dipole subs (in 100 cm deep H frames made of recycled oak): But the boxed subs were terrible timing wise. The bass was smeared all over the music. Like drawing using a spray can rather than a sharp pencil. The dipole subs sound very accurate, like I prefer. And they stop on a dime, as they should.
But I would prefer more complex music than the audiophile but musically in intersting stuff you used. The full range system should be able to play stuff like Queen loud, or jazz like Ben Webster At the Rennaisance or Decca operas convincingly. Why not demonstrate that?
Once you have subwoofers you will never go back
One thing he didn't talk about was your center image just locks in the place.
. Sub-Woofers aren't for musical instrument playback. They're for synthetic sounds & low frequency movie effects. Ron's using them here at a cross above 40Hz, which is adding Mono bass (no imaging) to non-full range 2-way stand mounts.
Go back and watch Ron's review of the GR-Research 3-way 'Brutes'. They are full range and need no subwoofer to fill-in the missing bass, including stereo imaging, for instrument playback.
Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass🔈🔉🔊
@@TriAmpMyFi Obviously you've never owned a sub
- At least 2 subs
- Get them OFF the FLOOR!!!
- Preferably at different heights.
I use an active electronic crossover to integrate my subs. Makes sub integration quite easy.
I find subs distracting. Give me a well-designed full-range speaker, and I'm happy. There isn't anything musical below 30Hz I'm interested in. Theaters for sound effects, sure.
Agreed. Only if you reeeally can only fit small bookshelf speakers between you and the wall and need to put a sub someplace else it makes sense, or like in case of a 5.1 surround system or soundbar because the spouse hates speakers. If you can fit 2 subs in your room and budget, you can fit 2 full-range speakers in them.
If subs are distracting then they are not set up correctly.
You can tune subs to be seamlessly integrated with mains.
Sure many people are good without bass slam. Not me or many others. Most small medium size towers can’t play 30-40 HZ with authority.
I like that lower octave to have some guts.
Like you said room size has a lot to do with it. My bedroom system stand mounts have enough bass. My listening room has two 12s ported tuned to 35HZ and most music you don’t know they are on. listening to metal, EDM or rap they come alive. Fully pressurizing the room.
@ That's one way of looking at it. I would say, what's wrong with your full-range speaker that you need a sub? Having said that, if EDM and Rap are your thing, then the body vibrations you get from a sub make perfect sense.
okay Ron - What gives??? - This is the second video with GR-Research 'LGK Studios?' - So, now - maybe a video on the monitors; Please
From the title I thought this was subwoofer placement for mastering 😂😂😂
can i borrow randy ?
He can be a real handful.
Dig into your couch cushions, shouldn’t be too hard to finance the KU100. 😵💫
For deep hyperdynamic bass PLUS a crystal clear female voice check out Svanrand by Heilung. But be careful with the volume 😅😅😅
Nice video of a beginners guide, but having more than 2 subwoofers on the floor is a waste of energy & money. Next level End Game is SubStacking 👍
A swarm of subs…and then I wake up
unsubbed
Damm Ron. Those new stand mounts do sound great. When will you present your baby?
Ah! Thanks man! I hope it should be early in the year! I’m very excited.
Holy crap, double sub approach already sounded amazing. This was super helpful! Looking to add a sub (for two subs). Side question (please forgive but) will we get a comprehensive review of the new NX-Bravos? Curious about how that planar sounds in that configuration 🙏🏼
I still think one sub is better than two
How much latency does the DSP incur? If it's a few milliseconds, you might actually want to place the subs closer than the bookshelfs for time alignment
I can‘t do this to my neighbors … it’s an overall bad idea. But I would really like to have at least 1 sub
Happy holidays, Ron! Hope you and the family have a wonderful Christmas and a happy New Year. 🔊🥳🎶🎄💜🎅
“Randy Neuman” 🤣 Not sure I’ve heard his last name before. He just keeps getting more handsome with age….
Thanks, Ron. Another home run of a vid. Appreciate you, man.