Something I'd point out, if you use Spiritual Weapon from the Cleric, it will run on wisdom. If Sorcerer is your main class and you're focusing on Charisma it might be more beneficial to pick up Spiritual Weapon as a Sorcerer spell as well, otherwise you will probably miss more often. Additionally, I find it is generally more effective to take 14 dexterity and run Medium Armor rather than 15 strength for full plate. If you take Half Plate + Shield it's still 19AC, but having the dex also makes your saving throws better and your initiative better. It's preference to be sure, but something to consider. For sure the most important thing in multi-classing is getting Armor + Shield proficiency. I would say if you wanted to play a Sorcerer, multiclassing a Hexblade Warlock 1 level might be a better option for mechanical synergy reasons. My main beef with the Life Domain cleric, is everything past 6th level is pretty boring IMO. My favorite Life Domain multi class is Circle of Shepherd Druid. The Unicorn Spirit Totem synergy with Disciple of Life is bonkers, AND both class run off of wisdom. P.S. I see you already made this video, gonna go watch that next.
agreed on the whole heavy armor vs. med armor + dex preference. i prefer med armor too as the ac is still decent but you have better initiative, dex saves and stealth. i rarely run heavy armor in my own builds. plate + shield= 20 ac half plate + shield + 14 dex=19 ac, +2 dex saves, + 2 init, +2 dex skills
You've been putting out some top notch stuff lately. Keep it up. If you haven't already, would you consider a deep dive on the Eldritch Knight? I've recently discovered just how deadly that class can be, and I was curious if you think a player would be better off going straight up Eldritch Knight, or dual class into something like Warlock for Hex, or maybe Paladin to add in the crazy smites.
EKs (and pretty much almost every other class) is better multiclassed. it's just a question of when and how much. i wouldn't be sure of whether to recommend paladin, warlock or another class until i get a better idea of how you want to play the EK. but to be honest though, EKs are better as dip classes than main classes. alot of their higher level abilities are very meh.
i think fighter is still a great choice is if you're after con save prof and armor + shield profs. getting action surge (the value of this imo on a caster is as good as the 2nd highest spell slot you can cast and possibly more if you're reliant on spell combos as a core tactic) and a fighting style (either defense for +1 ac or superior technique-ambush for initiative bonus). there's also this big misconception that delaying spell progression by a little is such a big deal. it's more nuanced than that. it really depends on your core tactics. It depends at what level you're starting and ending the campaign. for example if i'm focused on spirit guardians then i should delaying spell progression to get to that will hurt. but if i multiclass after getting spirit guardians and any other core spell i'd need that's 4th level or higher, then it isn't a big deal. another example is people tout the possibility of losing out on 9th level spells or not even getting it to begin with. let me ask, are you pretty sure you're campaign will get to level 17? are you pretty sure it won't be good for just 1 battle even if you reach that point? are you sure the DM won't nerf and twist your wish if it's not the cast 8th level or lower spells? would you not be able to solve challenges you've been able to solve until now without access to those 9th level spells? most people build around level 5 spells or lower as it's foolish to build around higher level spells that you will get too late and have very limited uses of. there are very few spells i'd delay multiclassing for such as simulacrum (if it isn't banned at the table). the last important thing to keep in mind here when it comes to delaying spell progression is what's the tradeoff? are you trading off for increased action economy (like the aforementioned action surge)? if yes, that's a good tradeoff. are you trading it off for pieces of a spell combo (like trading off 1 clockwork sorc level to dip celestial warlock 1 for pact slot and sacred flame for the wall of force + sacred flame combo) that's your main tactic? if yes, that's a good tradeoff. are you trading it off for a spell/abiity that doesn't increase your action economy or help your core tactic, like for the sake of versatility? then nope. go with spell progression.
yes, on paper this sounds ridiculously good, especially if you combo it with half-elf variants that can gain +1 stat and extra spells through feats the one problem I see with this multiclass is not being able to be stat optimized in the point buy system in strict 5e play without rolling for stats (and getting lucky), you can be very gimped in your core 3 stats in having to do 13 wisdom to open sorcerer to cleric and 13-15 str to get rid of your armor penalty now you could always race this as one of the dwarves, whom have a starter feat to negate the needed strength score to move around in heavy armor but still that limits your meta play for this class combo so if you do your traditional half-elf variant (like +drow) - you can point buy 12-14-14-8-12-17 as a starter than grab a +1 cha feat like fey touched as your first ASI substitute, or as your vanilla feat if DM is allowing it this would give your divine soul sorcerer misty step and hex plus the dancing lights cantrip and a one-use faerie fire and darkness as free casts per long rest which gives this caster even more utility with little investment but this would only give you at most 4 ASI (or 3 in strict play) for 6-8 extra stat points in a 17:3 build and 4 of those points would be needed to get wisdom to 13 to multiclass into life cleric and strength to 15 to avoid the -10 movement penalty with its heavy armor feature edit: or you can just ignore heavy armor and just wear breastplate and shield for 18 AC, which is nothing to scoff at as a full caster also realized during the ride to work that 19:1 divine soul sorcerer / life cleric is the better combo because you are only trading a single sorcery point, 1 7th level slot, and a bonus feat to regain 4 sorcery points on a short rest for all that a divine soul build gains with that single cleric level in 3 cantrips, 2 1st level spells, ritual casting for your cleric spells, proficiency in medium and heavy armor + shield, and the life domain stuff of bless, cure wounds, and bonus healing of 2 + spell level so at best your stats could look something like 15-14-14-8-13-18 with an extra 2 (or 4) points to spare at the end game level and to me - that seems to be a gap this multiclass combo can't ever seem to fill... without DM help because a player will have to sac 'something' like HP and con saving throws or the dex benefits casters need edit: actually more meta'ing this multiclass out, a half-elf or tiefling could end up with a statblock of 9-14-20-8-14-20 with a 19:1 build if you ignore the heavy armor bonus as you'd still have 18 AC without movement penalty or 20 with a -10 now hill dwarves can sorta work around this by just ignoring their strength stat in the purposes of this multiclass and even gain extra HP to boot however your stat pool is still subpar to other meta options edit: not really on second glance with the 19:1 build but dwarves can start off 8-14-16-8-13-15 and can just ignore their strength stat now the RP may not flow as well in being a stout looking character instead of a trim one with extra flavor of an elf or tiefling background but you only need 2 ASI's to get to 8-14-16-8-13-19, with the third being a +1 cha feat and the fourth and fifth ASI getting your con to 20 ... just my 2 cents here edit: the 19:1 divine soul sorcerer / life cleric build seems very solid with lots of candy thoughts? or has anyone ever really gamed this out in sessions?
Good points. I think that what stat system you use can definitely affect what build you want to use. There have certainly been campaigns where I knew I was using point buy and went with builds specifically because I wanted things like having two 16's for starting stats while going variant human, for example. If I were playing that campaign using standard array, I may not have played that character. Or maybe I would have just done it differently, who knows. I do think the stats are a bit of an issue, but if you plan on playing to high level, these things tend to work themselves out. Especially in a 1/19 type build, where you'll still have your full compliment of ASI's to work with. I like your idea of ditching strength and wearing medium armor though - there's nothing wrong with that. I think having 15 or 16 str is doable, but as you say, it may not be worth the investment. Also, I've seen characters who never bothered to max their main stats. I always try to personally, but I've seen people who didn't, and the difference is less than people seem to think. Sure, an extra +1 to hit/dmg is pretty nice, or an extra +1 to spell save DC is pretty important, but having an 18 isn't the end of the world, even if personally I always try to max my main stat. Great comment and questions though, I like it.
while i haven't played a life cleric + divine sorc, i have played divine sorc tons of times (one of my fave sorc subclasses) and i've done a couple of sorc + cleric builds. the common denominator though is i never worried about stats even with point buy. the difficulty being experienced here is the desire to wear heavy armor. personally, i try to avoid heavy armor as much as i can as i prefer +2 dex saves, +2 dex skills like stealth and +2 initiative over +1 ac of heavy armor. for example for my custom lineage divine sorc 9, peace cleric 1 controller i had a stat spread of: str 8 dex 14 con 12 int 8 wis 14 cha 15+2 for my custom lineage fighter 2, tempest cleric 6, divine sorc 2 blaster i had a stat spread of: str 8 dex 14 con 12 int 8 wis 15+2 cha 14 so its essentially the same stat spread and it just a question if cha or wis is the main stat. both builds performed very well. so imo without heavy armor, stats shouldn't be an issue.
You actually can dump strength and still get the full benefit of heavy armour, you will suffer a -10ft movement and that will hurt a lot, but its a small price to pay for 20 AC (Assuming you use a shield, which you really should).
![Divine Soul (Sorcerer) Build Guide in D&D 5e - HDIWDT [REUPLOAD]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wmJ5JlxP8hI/mqdefault.jpg)
The reason you don't want to go three lvls to learn spiritual weapon is because knowing it as a cleric means it scales off wisdom not charisma
Something I'd point out, if you use Spiritual Weapon from the Cleric, it will run on wisdom. If Sorcerer is your main class and you're focusing on Charisma it might be more beneficial to pick up Spiritual Weapon as a Sorcerer spell as well, otherwise you will probably miss more often. Additionally, I find it is generally more effective to take 14 dexterity and run Medium Armor rather than 15 strength for full plate. If you take Half Plate + Shield it's still 19AC, but having the dex also makes your saving throws better and your initiative better. It's preference to be sure, but something to consider. For sure the most important thing in multi-classing is getting Armor + Shield proficiency. I would say if you wanted to play a Sorcerer, multiclassing a Hexblade Warlock 1 level might be a better option for mechanical synergy reasons. My main beef with the Life Domain cleric, is everything past 6th level is pretty boring IMO.
My favorite Life Domain multi class is Circle of Shepherd Druid. The Unicorn Spirit Totem synergy with Disciple of Life is bonkers, AND both class run off of wisdom.
P.S. I see you already made this video, gonna go watch that next.
agreed on the whole heavy armor vs. med armor + dex preference. i prefer med armor too as the ac is still decent but you have better initiative, dex saves and stealth. i rarely run heavy armor in my own builds.
plate + shield= 20 ac
half plate + shield + 14 dex=19 ac, +2 dex saves, + 2 init, +2 dex skills
Thanks for the Info, that heal on tap spell selection from multiclassing is sweet
Playing this multiclass in my next game, super excited to see this breakdown.
You've been putting out some top notch stuff lately. Keep it up. If you haven't already, would you consider a deep dive on the Eldritch Knight? I've recently discovered just how deadly that class can be, and I was curious if you think a player would be better off going straight up Eldritch Knight, or dual class into something like Warlock for Hex, or maybe Paladin to add in the crazy smites.
Alright, I'll get to work on it :) Thanks for the suggestion.
EKs (and pretty much almost every other class) is better multiclassed. it's just a question of when and how much. i wouldn't be sure of whether to recommend paladin, warlock or another class until i get a better idea of how you want to play the EK. but to be honest though, EKs are better as dip classes than main classes. alot of their higher level abilities are very meh.
i think fighter is still a great choice is if you're after con save prof and armor + shield profs. getting action surge (the value of this imo on a caster is as good as the 2nd highest spell slot you can cast and possibly more if you're reliant on spell combos as a core tactic) and a fighting style (either defense for +1 ac or superior technique-ambush for initiative bonus).
there's also this big misconception that delaying spell progression by a little is such a big deal. it's more nuanced than that. it really depends on your core tactics. It depends at what level you're starting and ending the campaign. for example if i'm focused on spirit guardians then i should delaying spell progression to get to that will hurt. but if i multiclass after getting spirit guardians and any other core spell i'd need that's 4th level or higher, then it isn't a big deal. another example is people tout the possibility of losing out on 9th level spells or not even getting it to begin with. let me ask, are you pretty sure you're campaign will get to level 17? are you pretty sure it won't be good for just 1 battle even if you reach that point? are you sure the DM won't nerf and twist your wish if it's not the cast 8th level or lower spells? would you not be able to solve challenges you've been able to solve until now without access to those 9th level spells? most people build around level 5 spells or lower as it's foolish to build around higher level spells that you will get too late and have very limited uses of. there are very few spells i'd delay multiclassing for such as simulacrum (if it isn't banned at the table).
the last important thing to keep in mind here when it comes to delaying spell progression is what's the tradeoff? are you trading off for increased action economy (like the aforementioned action surge)? if yes, that's a good tradeoff. are you trading it off for pieces of a spell combo (like trading off 1 clockwork sorc level to dip celestial warlock 1 for pact slot and sacred flame for the wall of force + sacred flame combo) that's your main tactic? if yes, that's a good tradeoff. are you trading it off for a spell/abiity that doesn't increase your action economy or help your core tactic, like for the sake of versatility? then nope. go with spell progression.
yes, on paper this sounds ridiculously good, especially if you combo it with half-elf variants that can gain +1 stat and extra spells through feats
the one problem I see with this multiclass is not being able to be stat optimized in the point buy system
in strict 5e play without rolling for stats (and getting lucky), you can be very gimped in your core 3 stats in having to do 13 wisdom to open sorcerer to cleric and 13-15 str to get rid of your armor penalty
now you could always race this as one of the dwarves, whom have a starter feat to negate the needed strength score to move around in heavy armor
but still that limits your meta play for this class combo
so if you do your traditional half-elf variant (like +drow) - you can point buy 12-14-14-8-12-17 as a starter than grab a +1 cha feat like fey touched as your first ASI substitute, or as your vanilla feat if DM is allowing it
this would give your divine soul sorcerer misty step and hex plus the dancing lights cantrip and a one-use faerie fire and darkness as free casts per long rest
which gives this caster even more utility with little investment
but this would only give you at most 4 ASI (or 3 in strict play) for 6-8 extra stat points in a 17:3 build
and 4 of those points would be needed to get wisdom to 13 to multiclass into life cleric and strength to 15 to avoid the -10 movement penalty with its heavy armor feature
edit: or you can just ignore heavy armor and just wear breastplate and shield for 18 AC, which is nothing to scoff at as a full caster
also realized during the ride to work that 19:1 divine soul sorcerer / life cleric is the better combo
because you are only trading a single sorcery point, 1 7th level slot, and a bonus feat to regain 4 sorcery points on a short rest for all that a divine soul build gains with that single cleric level in 3 cantrips, 2 1st level spells, ritual casting for your cleric spells, proficiency in medium and heavy armor + shield, and the life domain stuff of bless, cure wounds, and bonus healing of 2 + spell level
so at best your stats could look something like 15-14-14-8-13-18 with an extra 2 (or 4) points to spare at the end game level
and to me - that seems to be a gap this multiclass combo can't ever seem to fill... without DM help
because a player will have to sac 'something' like HP and con saving throws or the dex benefits casters need
edit: actually more meta'ing this multiclass out, a half-elf or tiefling could end up with a statblock of 9-14-20-8-14-20 with a 19:1 build if you ignore the heavy armor bonus
as you'd still have 18 AC without movement penalty or 20 with a -10
now hill dwarves can sorta work around this by just ignoring their strength stat in the purposes of this multiclass and even gain extra HP to boot
however your stat pool is still subpar to other meta options edit: not really on second glance with the 19:1 build
but dwarves can start off 8-14-16-8-13-15 and can just ignore their strength stat
now the RP may not flow as well in being a stout looking character instead of a trim one with extra flavor of an elf or tiefling background
but you only need 2 ASI's to get to 8-14-16-8-13-19, with the third being a +1 cha feat and the fourth and fifth ASI getting your con to 20
... just my 2 cents here
edit: the 19:1 divine soul sorcerer / life cleric build seems very solid with lots of candy
thoughts? or has anyone ever really gamed this out in sessions?
Good points. I think that what stat system you use can definitely affect what build you want to use. There have certainly been campaigns where I knew I was using point buy and went with builds specifically because I wanted things like having two 16's for starting stats while going variant human, for example. If I were playing that campaign using standard array, I may not have played that character. Or maybe I would have just done it differently, who knows.
I do think the stats are a bit of an issue, but if you plan on playing to high level, these things tend to work themselves out. Especially in a 1/19 type build, where you'll still have your full compliment of ASI's to work with. I like your idea of ditching strength and wearing medium armor though - there's nothing wrong with that. I think having 15 or 16 str is doable, but as you say, it may not be worth the investment. Also, I've seen characters who never bothered to max their main stats. I always try to personally, but I've seen people who didn't, and the difference is less than people seem to think. Sure, an extra +1 to hit/dmg is pretty nice, or an extra +1 to spell save DC is pretty important, but having an 18 isn't the end of the world, even if personally I always try to max my main stat.
Great comment and questions though, I like it.
while i haven't played a life cleric + divine sorc, i have played divine sorc tons of times (one of my fave sorc subclasses) and i've done a couple of sorc + cleric builds. the common denominator though is i never worried about stats even with point buy. the difficulty being experienced here is the desire to wear heavy armor. personally, i try to avoid heavy armor as much as i can as i prefer +2 dex saves, +2 dex skills like stealth and +2 initiative over +1 ac of heavy armor.
for example for my custom lineage divine sorc 9, peace cleric 1 controller i had a stat spread of:
str 8 dex 14 con 12 int 8 wis 14 cha 15+2
for my custom lineage fighter 2, tempest cleric 6, divine sorc 2 blaster i had a stat spread of:
str 8 dex 14 con 12 int 8 wis 15+2 cha 14
so its essentially the same stat spread and it just a question if cha or wis is the main stat.
both builds performed very well. so imo without heavy armor, stats shouldn't be an issue.
It does mention your SPELLCASTING feature, wizard has a spellcasting feature, can u take 1 dip in divine soul and go full wizard for cleric spells?
You actually can dump strength and still get the full benefit of heavy armour, you will suffer a -10ft movement and that will hurt a lot, but its a small price to pay for 20 AC (Assuming you use a shield, which you really should).
True, good point. It's not like you NEED the 15 Str, you can just lose some movement.
why not 4 levels for the ability boost or feat
Because if you take 3 cleric you can still get 9th level spells on Sorcerer. 9th level spells hit at 17th level.