This is his channel! It's an on screen link at the end of the video but for some reason it seems like people either have those turned off or aren't seeing it. ruclips.net/channel/UC5iQbzytP3DN5eZhKiUVNsg
I agree with the analysis, but I would have framed it a little more polite. It's a good question for thought experiments, so no need to be rude. I would have started off defining the parameters and definitions first and then go into every kink in the question. Also, another consideration that your engineer friend missed is that the explosion that would have ejected our poor dino friend into orbit would have destroyed our dino friend long before air resistance got to do its job. Anything that would have been ejected would no longer be recognizable as dino bone and/or tissue.
@@craigh5236 Actually, there have been examples of non-fossilized, with some rare cases even potentially having soft tissue! So, depending on your definition, there are still Dino bones in space!
@@noneuklid Jurassic Park Luna! Seems a lot more secure since it's a 3 day trip by rocket back to Earth, and surely it's a hell of a lot easier to keep things on Luna than it is to keep something on an island.
I wasn’t expecting Science education on this channel. But here we are, and I’m entertained. I love the way he shuts down stupid click bait questions with an abrupt “NO!”
Engineers brains overheat when not calculating at a rate inversely proportional to the rate at which non-engineer brains overheat when they -do- calculate.
@@draconis307 The exact value can be simplified to 66,673.4*15, which can then be plugged into 8 bit binary with the last missing digit being substitued for a zero.
I literally just finished thermodynamics and fluid mechanics. You'd be surprised how often an object just gets estimated as a sphere or cube for drag calculations.
This is why my GMs have learned that seemingly innocent questions like "Is it an oil or alcohol based perfume? " or "Is the chicken frozen & will it fit in the pipe?" are just subtle signals that his carefully planned scenario is about to go off the rails. The suspicious "Why?" I get as a reflexive response gives me that warm-fuzzy feeling, evwn if I'm just trying to get a wall color to distinguish areas for a mental map. My groups also have learned to fear my power! Puns, Dad Jokes, & the latest insights from my 7 y/o can be just too much for their young twenties to thirties brains... Btw. Pro GM tip: when a player asks what is on the shelves in the high school chem lab in your game (modern setting); the answer is NOT an inventory. It is "What are you looking to do? Why? Exactly how?" Unless you want to find out who understands basic chemistry, stayed awake in class, remembers it & and had a really fun teacher. (Also, Iron-Aluminum is not the only reaction called thermite. CO2 is heavier than air. And actually reading the warnings on Material Data Sheets is both educational & terrifying. )
Ah yes, become the reason your table bans something. I got explosives banned because I used them to one shot a BBEG. Backpack full of grenades + fireball = Ash.
If a player ever asks you to explain what exactly happens to the light hitting an illusory mirror…. I had _so_ much fun that session. Especially because a little while later the GM asked my opponent _how_ invisible he wanted to be, and he replied “very invisible. Like 95%.”
You need a mat 20 for that, then I'll let you roll a percentile die. 95 or higher you get it. I got a 97 .............fine............Space dinosaurs exist, and you did meet one.
Engineer here: According to “ Trajectories and distribution of material ejected from the Chicxulub impact crater: Implications for postimpact wildfires” around 12% of the mass thrown by the impact had escape velocities. That is *a lot* of mass. It was primarily crust of the earth. You know what is in the crust of the earth during the age of dinosaurs? Dinosaur bones. While most of the crust ejected turned molten, some of it may not, and large chunks of rock could have contained dinosaur bones. The velocities may have oblated the rock and not the bone, thus preserving the bone at escape velocities. So, yes, it is theoretically possible in a large chunk of earth that during the Chixulub impact dinosaur bones were jettisoned into space.
I was thinking about bones contained in the earth making it to space. Using ice as an example when it's more logical to use earth as an example put me off the explanation. Seems like bias to me.
Yeah that’s what I was thinking. Considering how much people like to throw the “panspermia” theory around for the origin of life on Earth, I didn’t think it seemed that unreasonable to have a few small fragments of dinosaur bones that were buried in the earths crust be in the right size chunk of rock to survive ejection and still make it to space. I doubt they were complete bones, but maybe a couple cm of material might be in an asteroid somewhere.
I will be completely honest I highly doubt that any of that crust made it to space at any reasonable temperature. Given that the impact if I recall correctly vaporized stone. I feel like you'd actually have to show your work that something could remotely survive after being hit by the meteor and then ejected into space. There are glass spherules littered along the boundary layer, the explanation for them is superheated rock that was ejected falling back to earth and cooling before impact, like hail.
@@thewingedporpoise More a thought exercise the mathematical proof... the entire earth was not vaporized, so obviously there was a change point where the energy exerted went from vaporization to moving rocks. That point a millionth less of a joule under vaporization level still had an insane amount of energy dumped into moving a mass of material.
@thewingedporpoise Mars meteorites are a real thing that apparently survived the initial ejection from Mars and the atmosphere and impact on Earth. No idea how big of a hit Mars took for any of them but it does confirm that meteorites can knock pieces off some planets at escape velocity.
Paleontology professional here. Excellent stuff! The physics aspects were enlightening, some new stuff there for me. A correction on that last part for your engineer friend--dinosaur bone fossils are almost always still dinosaur bones. Contrary to popular belief, the permineralization process does not replace the entire bone with rock. It only fills the vacant spaces of the bone, the parts that are empty after fluids have dried/drained and most of the soft parts have rotted out. Our bones are full of holes, they are like sponges made of calcium phosphate and collagen. During life that mineral sponge is filled with lots of blood and soft tissues. In death, if a bone is lucky enough to fossilize, most of those things have drained or decomposed away before the bone is preserved through permineralization. Water draining through the bone sponge, laden with its own minerals, deposits crystals on the remaining latticework of bone. Over time, as more water drains through the soil and picks up its minerals, these minerals are redeposited inside the bone sponge until all of its holes are completely filled with crystal (mostly quartz). It's the exact same process that forms geodes and agates--or, less romantically, the crust on your showerhead that gets deposited over time by hard (mineral heavy) water. Either way, the soft parts of the bone decompose, leaving hard parts and empty space. Over time, hard minerals grow to fill in that empty space. It's as if you soaked a dish sponge in cement, and then let the cement dry. The sponge is full of cement, sure. But it's still a sponge. All that to say, when that Maiasaura bone went to space, it was still a dinosaur bone. Just a bone whose empty spaces had been filled with crystal growth. The bone's calcium phosphate and any remaining collagen were still original--the same ones that were in the animal while it lived. So yes, in that ONE category of situation, dinosaur bones have been in space. But the other stuff--fantastic! Thank you for teaching me some cool things about physics. I hope it's not too obnoxious that I return the favor with a cool thing about dinosaurs.
The answer I didn’t know I was looking for! Follow up thought… are there currently any birds in space? Like on the ISS? Because birds TEND to have bones, and you can’t exactly evolve out of a clade.
@@ConnorisrealAs far as I’ve researched (NASA had a page on all the animals in space) there haven’t been any birds in space, (though there have been some zero g experiments with them on airplanes).
Well technically, there are no ENTIRE dinosaur bones in space. But some of the atoms that were dinosaur bones are most likely in space. You can also say: "My bones are partially made of dino bones"
@@thundersheild926the editor wouldn't let it through, because if it was true, it would be an admission that they and others had intentionally acted falsely and thus open them up to litigation.
It absolutely has been shown to be wrong wtf? Multiple studies have looked at it and found that it’s close to half and half, and if anything, leans toward “yes”
as in aliens that look like dinosaurs or dinosaurs that somehow got transplanted to another world and have since developed a means of getting to space?
The problem with the reply is that it assumes math based on reentry, not a departure from the atmosphere. The air and it's molecules get thinner the higher you go up, not the converse as in the math. Does that mean I think there are dinosaur bones in space? NO!
Less of an issue than you propose, because the dinojectile will be at it's highest velocity when the air is thickest, so it's going to light up DAMN fast.
This reminds me of Randal Monroe's "What if" books which tries takes stupid questions and answers them scientifically. In fact, the first book also includes a section about launching things into orbit and is where I first learned about the 8 km/s thing. It's a really interesting read if you're into that kind of stuff.
@@HaloInverse There's pretty severe weight limits. Either he smuggled it on board, or he sacrificed bringing something else just so he could say he brought a fossil to space.
This is exactly what I want when I say said stupid questions. Not just "is there?" but also "what would need to happen FOR there?".. it's the Mythbusters way.
I think the same. Years ago my mom was annoyed at my brother for asking what she considered stupid questions, and as an example she asked him "what if the moon was purple?", to show him how pointless his questions sounded. But then that got me thinking: what if the moon was purple? What would have to change to allow that? And what would change as a result? Maybe the material of the moon itself is purple, which would suggest a drastically different origin of not just the moon, but the solar system as a whole, because the very composition of the solar system would have to be different because in its current composition I'm pretty sure there's not that much purple stuff to make a moon out of. Or maybe the sun itself emits mostly purple light that the moon then reflects, which has even wilder implications because due to what wavelengths are possible in blackbody radiation, purple stars can't exist. So our sun (and by extension moon) being purple would require completely different laws of physics and that changes everything. I suspect culture, mythology, language, and perhaps economy would even change to some extent. Silver is often associated with the moon in mythology and literature, which affects language. But if it was purple, that wouldn't be the case, because silver obviously isn't purple. And this cultural difference might also change how we value certain materials. In conclusion, so-called stupid questions can result in the most interesting thought experiments.
@@KingNedya-- At some point un the past, before green plants took over, the ocean was probably dominated by purple algae. There may have been enough to see the dark side of the moon lightly tunged with purple, and this purple reflection may have been visible during a solar eclipse. The Moon may already have looked the slightest bit purple.
@@KingNedya Dunno if it counts, per se, but there was a series of photos that captured moon image year-round, showing an interesting spectrum of colors we perceive of it over time. I was lowkey mesmerizing for me to look at. Then again, perhaps color relativity may have something to do with it too, but I like the photo itself alot.
@@KingNedya Funnily enough, I remember hearing that it would be more common for alien plant life to be purple than green due to it being more likely that plants would feed off infrared radiation due to its abundance, causing purple pigments.
This is true. If we go to space, and there are no bones there, where are we supposed to get our bones? There need to be bones already there, and if there aren't, we have a responsibility to put them there. (I am being facetious.)
This was spectacular and enjoyable. Much fun was had by all! Great voice work, great delivery, great art. Also, perfect topic for a stupid lil engineer rant. Loved every second of it.
I know a lot of engineers and i guarantee if i asked this question to any of them their first thought wouldnt be "no" it would be "we could make sure thats true" and then theorize how they could make a contraption to get a dinosaur bone into space
Bro, I didn't know how much I wanted an animation about the science behind some crazy D&D shit till now. What a niche. Do the math behind the peasant railgun next.
@@micahwest3566 Fun fact: There's an entire web comic series published by the man himself called "what-if". They are effectively longer form XKCD comics with way more words on them. If that sounds even remotely appealing to you, I highly suggest checking it out.
As a dino nerd i admit i had never thought of this before. Thank you for peaking my interest and then crushing my enthusiasm on thinking about it in one video 🤣 🤣
I love this video. Something about your friends dynamic and your framing and "ooo" after he kind of destroy it, feels really relatable. Honestly love to see more videos like this of just silly ideas.
If the title of an article is a question, the answer is no. That´s a really useful rule of thumb, and definitely something more people should remember. If only to save themselves from wasting time on those kinds of articles
I'm an engineering student, the first sentence made my brain reboot then my next thought was "anything getting enough energy to be ejected into space is getting vaporized first."
You might notice there is minor but non negligible difference between shape, size, composition and attack angle of a diplodocus carcass compared to a Saturn V
As mentioned in a separate comment, this is precisely incorrect. The shock wave is faster than the rate of any thermally-driven phase change. It's why meteorites (and failed spacecraft) disintegrate rather than vaporize.
There's a _lot_ of ejecta going to space in such an impact. Would it not be possible for all that rubble to punch a massive shockwave through the atmosphere, and some poor mangled creature to "survive" the trip to space?
I've played enough Kerbal Space Program to know that atmospheric drag will tear into you like a crackhead looking for copper wire if you don't treat it with upmost respect
I like how the argument to kill this idea isn't anything about the mechanics of sending a dinosaur into space, but rather the fact that their bones would not survive a Chicxulub-Rocket Jump.
I guess a better worded way to say this would be "Could an already fossilized dinosaur bone have been thrown into space by the impact of the asteroid 66 million yeas ago and sent it outside of earth's orbit and into space." And the answer is.... maybe.
@@SikerMinecraft You just need it to be in a bigger chunk of rock initially. We have pieces of Mars that landed in Antarctica, so we know that stuff can be ejected into space from impacts. Just not a living thing bigger than a microbe is all. But a fossil? I don't see why not.
@@SikerMinecraft I seem to remember us finding rocks on earth from mars at some point called "martian meteorites" which granted are ultra rare, but do apparently exist from asteroids or comets knocking bits of mars up into space. I'm assuming that the opposite would be possible as well, leaving earth and then just going off into space in a direction that doesn't hit another planet. I can't prove it either way, martian meteorites may just be misclassified terrestrial rocks for example, but it's an interesting thought experiment IMO.
@@sleadaddy Not really. Dinosaurs went extinct at 66MYA when the meteor hit. But we had our first known dinosaurs as early as 230MYA (but possibly as early as 240MYA but i'll hedge my bets with the more conservative estimate) So that's about a 164 million year window. It takes about 10,000 years for a bone to fossilize in good conditions. So that window can be reasonably estimated to be about 16,400 times the duration required. It's weird to think of the world in geologic time, but those dinosaurs were here for a good long while.
Holy crap I was LOCKED IN from the moment he started talking. Excellent breaking down of the science, excellent storytelling, subbed as soon as I saw the link to his channel.
the fact that be brought up being in orbit as a requirement sticks in my craw because nobody said anything about trying get it to orbit the planet, but ultimately it would take more energy to leave the planet's gravitational pull than to be in orbit anyway so it doesn't technically make a difference. but STILLLL
Been thinking about this, and there are a few edge-cases worth exploring. The answer is still probably no. Numerical inconsistencies like the choice of escape velocity are "reasonable to within a margin of error". At an escape velocity of 10Km/s, with the Karman line transition to space at 100Km above sea level, you really need to survive exposure to extreme temperature for about 10s. Most of the atmosphere is below this level, and above this, you're dealing with heat you soaked up, but that's it. First effect worth considering is the Leidenfrost effect. This goes a little closer to the ablative heat shield mention, but the idea is if the temperature differential is significant enough, the decreased thermal conductivity of the gas phase of a liquid can shield a solid from further harm. This allows someone to survive dunking a wet hand into molten lead without injury. The key is the gradient MUST be hot enough. This would not be interesting if the duration of the exposure was significantly longer than 10s, but with such a short time, it becomes interesting. Second, there is the concept of phase change material stabilization. Wrapping something in a material undergoing a phase change can lock the maximum temperature the stored material is exposed to at that of the phase change. As was noted, the sheer amount of energy involved is such that if there were a fraction of a percent of inefficiency (several percent is likely), it would be sufficient to ablate everything involved. Third, bones still count as bones if they're buried, so the container does not need to be a fleshy dinosaur to allow this to work. You could start with a dead dinosaur encapsulated in mud, sand, or tar. You could have a partially developed dinosaur inside an egg. There are combinations of materials here that lend themselves more to absorbing the heat in the form of a crust. Some options are better than others for thermal barriers, but you don't need to rely on the argument that it's flesh acting as a shield. If you have a layer of sand, you get some benefit of a silica shield, which is what actual space tiles are made of. These are not the same quality as shuttle tiles, but it's better than expecting a flash-frozen dinosaur to survive the trip. Finally, bones turn to ash over 1250 degrees F, so you have some margin if you have layers of materials absorbing, stabilizing, and re-radiating the heat as you go. If there were to be bones in space, I'd expect at a minimum you would need to effectively nest bones inside layers of material that take advantage of the sum of these effect. The likelihood of bones encased in alternating layers of thermally absorptive rock, sand, and temperature stabilizing materials probably excluding water (which likes to explode when it boils in a confined space) necessary to protect it is slim to none, but it's worth calling out the directions to dig if there's the slightest possibility of a "Yes". That said, that type of layering is not unlike where we find fossils today.
Yeah. Same thing annoys me about myth busters. Idk why the exercise starts from a literal dry bone by itself getting launched somehow. The bone could be embedded in who knows what, frozen or fossilized. Even the question of: have dinosaur bones reached escape velocity such that their remains are in space is also pretty interesting IMO
I'm guessing he made a call on the plausibility and then looked up the numbers to back his case. Or he's a literal rocket scientist and he has things like escape velocities and reentry temperatures on tap.
@@schonnj ...It's not that hard to estimate escape velocities as "Really fast (somewhere around a couple km/s)" and "really hot" (idk, they use special ceramic shit for heat shields so that's gotta be hot enough that other materials wouldn't do, and we're asking if a material would hold up)
My sister-in-law once wrote a short paper on whether Godzilla's biology was scientifically feasible for the hell of it, so I understand the reasoning for this.
The real problem is that at the kind of speeds we're talking about, the force of the air itself would have a shredding effect that rapidly increases the dinosaur's surface area, which allows faster energy transfer. It's the same thing that happens to a fireball meteor (like the one at Chelyabinsk); the solid mass breaks into pieces and then the pieces break into pieces, and eventually each tiny fragment is small enough to turn to plasma essentially instantly.
Counterpoint: What if dinosaurs were smarter than we believe? What if an ancient civilization of intelligent dinosaurs built a rocket and went to space?
We would have found way more interesting fossils than _bones._ Our descendants will be mystified by such relics as "roads" and "styrofoam", and theorize that we must have been made of plastic.
@@Sleepy12ftPanda No. If dinosaurs had technology we'd see it in the fossil record. There's plenty of junk humans have already left in layers of rock such that in millions of years there would be no question that we were here. From plastic and ceramics to radioactive isotopes and lead, we have left a distinctive mark on the fossil record. Those last two are literally distributed globally thanks to atomic tests and leaded gasoline.
I'm glad this didn't get to just be a short. This was incredibly well animated, charming, and amusing. Then again, I married an engineer. I know very well how deep this logic rabbit hole goes.
I love how the answer isn't "no, the impact wasn't that big", it's "no, dinosaur bones don't have the structural integrity to be catapulted through the atmosphere into outer space."
It depends. If we use the definition used in physics to refer to the "fabric" of space itself, then yes, but answering the question that way is lame because then the answer for everything would be yes and it would suppose the question itself is meaningless and so I don't like that answer. But if we instead use the more colloquial version of the term, which is the near-vacuuous region outside of the atmosphere (or crust if there is no atmosphere) of celestial bodies, then the answer is no, because all dinosaur bones are and have remained within our planet's atmosphere and therefore never entered space. The atmosphere is part of the Earth, so the Earth is in space, but everything within the atmosphere is not. Essentially, only the second interpretation answers the question as the person asking it intended, and therefore is more valuable and relevant as an answer.
Actually no, because any dinosaur bones would be destroyed by now or turned into fossils, which aren't bones. There are not currently dinosaur bones in the universe. :p
@@eclipserepeater2466 Given we have direct dinosaur descendants *and* creatures that have survived (if slightly evolved) to the modern day from millions of years ago, we can argue dinosaur bones are very much in the universe right now. Crocs are a thing, after all.
@@eclipserepeater2466Actually yes because birds are all technically dinosaurs and they are full of bones and the earth exists in space so there are dinosaur bones in space.
This is his channel! It's an on screen link at the end of the video but for some reason it seems like people either have those turned off or aren't seeing it.
ruclips.net/channel/UC5iQbzytP3DN5eZhKiUVNsg
Thank you! this video was amazing
I agree with the analysis, but I would have framed it a little more polite. It's a good question for thought experiments, so no need to be rude. I would have started off defining the parameters and definitions first and then go into every kink in the question. Also, another consideration that your engineer friend missed is that the explosion that would have ejected our poor dino friend into orbit would have destroyed our dino friend long before air resistance got to do its job. Anything that would have been ejected would no longer be recognizable as dino bone and/or tissue.
As an engineer myself, 100% loved this and would like more content similar. TBH all the stuff that makes it on your channel is quality.
Suck it "Peasant Rail Gun"!
It was honestly a damn good question for engineers to contemplate
"did scientists-"
No. They didn't.
"Did scientists find the cure for cancer?" Nope, everytime.
did wizards though?
@@twicedeadmage i mean scientists have found very effective treatments for MOST cancers.
Name me one time, ONE TIME, that scientists have done anything in the history of the universe. You can't. It's impossible!
@@mercaius Nukes were pretty nifty
Hey now, the Earth is in Space! Therefore all dinosaur bones are in space!
Were in space. There are no bones right now
This is the objectively optimal answer.
"What is space?"
@@craigh5236 Actually, there have been examples of non-fossilized, with some rare cases even potentially having soft tissue! So, depending on your definition, there are still Dino bones in space!
@craigh5246 all time that was is and ever will be is always everywhere! 😉
I love the astronaut's face, like what was his sinister plan for that fossil lmao
Okay hear me out. Jurassic Park was trying to isolate the dinosaurs from the general public by putting them on an -island-.
@@noneuklid Jurassic Park Luna! Seems a lot more secure since it's a 3 day trip by rocket back to Earth, and surely it's a hell of a lot easier to keep things on Luna than it is to keep something on an island.
I wasn’t expecting Science education on this channel. But here we are, and I’m entertained.
I love the way he shuts down stupid click bait questions with an abrupt “NO!”
Don't blame the engineers, if they stop calculating their brains will overheat and catch fire.
Engineers brains overheat when not calculating at a rate inversely proportional to the rate at which non-engineer brains overheat when they -do- calculate.
@@draconis307 The exact value can be simplified to 66,673.4*15, which can then be plugged into 8 bit binary with the last missing digit being substitued for a zero.
@@Handles_AreStupid I'd tell you two to stop, but... you know.
@@cj6498 don't want them overheating.
It's true. If I don't calculate the square root of ten-figure numbers by hand every morning, how do I even know I'm alive?
Ahh yes the perfectly cubic, 0 deegrees celsius and with no air resistance -Rex. The engineer favourite dinosaur
The Engineerex
Meanwhile, the physicists' favorite dinosaur is the point-mass-asaurus
I literally just finished thermodynamics and fluid mechanics. You'd be surprised how often an object just gets estimated as a sphere or cube for drag calculations.
don't forget they need to assume air resistance is negligible
I love spherical cow-esque answers
This is why my GMs have learned that seemingly innocent questions like "Is it an oil or alcohol based perfume? " or "Is the chicken frozen & will it fit in the pipe?" are just subtle signals that his carefully planned scenario is about to go off the rails.
The suspicious "Why?" I get as a reflexive response gives me that warm-fuzzy feeling, evwn if I'm just trying to get a wall color to distinguish areas for a mental map.
My groups also have learned to fear my power! Puns, Dad Jokes, & the latest insights from my 7 y/o can be just too much for their young twenties to thirties brains...
Btw. Pro GM tip: when a player asks what is on the shelves in the high school chem lab in your game (modern setting); the answer is NOT an inventory. It is "What are you looking to do? Why? Exactly how?" Unless you want to find out who understands basic chemistry, stayed awake in class, remembers it & and had a really fun teacher.
(Also, Iron-Aluminum is not the only reaction called thermite. CO2 is heavier than air. And actually reading the warnings on Material Data Sheets is both educational & terrifying. )
Ah yes, become the reason your table bans something.
I got explosives banned because I used them to one shot a BBEG. Backpack full of grenades + fireball = Ash.
If a player ever asks you to explain what exactly happens to the light hitting an illusory mirror….
I had _so_ much fun that session. Especially because a little while later the GM asked my opponent _how_ invisible he wanted to be, and he replied “very invisible. Like 95%.”
That is... the single worst thing I have ever heard, and my gratitude is immeasurable. Thank you, I owe you my life.
I cant imagine getting constantly um actuallyed in a made up game is very fun
@@MrWrathkun Ah, but getting yes anded is awesome.
Realistic answer: "no"
ttrpg answer: "You can certainly try"
You need a mat 20 for that, then I'll let you roll a percentile die. 95 or higher you get it.
I got a 97
.............fine............Space dinosaurs exist, and you did meet one.
"Ok what I roll for?"
"For how hard you fail"
Nat 20!
For a score of?
“Bare in mind, anything can be attempted”
Warframe is a Tencent game.
This feels like the kind of conversation that comes up when the Wizard in your Spelljammer campaign just learned Polymorph.
More like, during week long trip through Flogiston, where there's nothing to do
Clearly the Wizard has the power to make the answer, "There WERE no dinosaur bones in space."
"are their dinosaur bones in space? No. Lets change that"
@@Raghetielis this named for the debunked scientific concept of phlogiston
That last "no". Mathematically perfect comedy.
Engineer here:
According to “ Trajectories and distribution of material ejected from the Chicxulub impact crater: Implications for postimpact wildfires” around 12% of the mass thrown by the impact had escape velocities.
That is *a lot* of mass. It was primarily crust of the earth. You know what is in the crust of the earth during the age of dinosaurs? Dinosaur bones. While most of the crust ejected turned molten, some of it may not, and large chunks of rock could have contained dinosaur bones. The velocities may have oblated the rock and not the bone, thus preserving the bone at escape velocities.
So, yes, it is theoretically possible in a large chunk of earth that during the Chixulub impact dinosaur bones were jettisoned into space.
I was thinking about bones contained in the earth making it to space. Using ice as an example when it's more logical to use earth as an example put me off the explanation. Seems like bias to me.
Yeah that’s what I was thinking. Considering how much people like to throw the “panspermia” theory around for the origin of life on Earth, I didn’t think it seemed that unreasonable to have a few small fragments of dinosaur bones that were buried in the earths crust be in the right size chunk of rock to survive ejection and still make it to space. I doubt they were complete bones, but maybe a couple cm of material might be in an asteroid somewhere.
I will be completely honest I highly doubt that any of that crust made it to space at any reasonable temperature. Given that the impact if I recall correctly vaporized stone. I feel like you'd actually have to show your work that something could remotely survive after being hit by the meteor and then ejected into space. There are glass spherules littered along the boundary layer, the explanation for them is superheated rock that was ejected falling back to earth and cooling before impact, like hail.
@@thewingedporpoise More a thought exercise the mathematical proof... the entire earth was not vaporized, so obviously there was a change point where the energy exerted went from vaporization to moving rocks. That point a millionth less of a joule under vaporization level still had an insane amount of energy dumped into moving a mass of material.
@thewingedporpoise Mars meteorites are a real thing that apparently survived the initial ejection from Mars and the atmosphere and impact on Earth. No idea how big of a hit Mars took for any of them but it does confirm that meteorites can knock pieces off some planets at escape velocity.
This is like XKCD's What If from a parallel universe where Randall doesn't care if he makes you feel bad.
Yeah that's exactly what it felt like
Submissive vs dominant XKCD
I sent XKCD this question asking for their take and provided this video. I'd like to see how they would handle it.
@@jackielinde7568 Probably with a LOT MOAR math.
More is MOAR in space, cause KSP. :)
Randall _doesn't_ care if he makes you feel bad. He just usually makes you feel good afterwards.
Tobo, thank you, not just for the in depth answer, but for all the lovely portmanteaus like "dinojectile"
add a -dysfunction.
@@artistpoet5253 dinojectile dysfunction.
@@TheDoc_KNew band name acquired.
Paleontology professional here. Excellent stuff! The physics aspects were enlightening, some new stuff there for me. A correction on that last part for your engineer friend--dinosaur bone fossils are almost always still dinosaur bones. Contrary to popular belief, the permineralization process does not replace the entire bone with rock. It only fills the vacant spaces of the bone, the parts that are empty after fluids have dried/drained and most of the soft parts have rotted out. Our bones are full of holes, they are like sponges made of calcium phosphate and collagen. During life that mineral sponge is filled with lots of blood and soft tissues. In death, if a bone is lucky enough to fossilize, most of those things have drained or decomposed away before the bone is preserved through permineralization. Water draining through the bone sponge, laden with its own minerals, deposits crystals on the remaining latticework of bone. Over time, as more water drains through the soil and picks up its minerals, these minerals are redeposited inside the bone sponge until all of its holes are completely filled with crystal (mostly quartz). It's the exact same process that forms geodes and agates--or, less romantically, the crust on your showerhead that gets deposited over time by hard (mineral heavy) water. Either way, the soft parts of the bone decompose, leaving hard parts and empty space. Over time, hard minerals grow to fill in that empty space. It's as if you soaked a dish sponge in cement, and then let the cement dry. The sponge is full of cement, sure. But it's still a sponge.
All that to say, when that Maiasaura bone went to space, it was still a dinosaur bone. Just a bone whose empty spaces had been filled with crystal growth. The bone's calcium phosphate and any remaining collagen were still original--the same ones that were in the animal while it lived.
So yes, in that ONE category of situation, dinosaur bones have been in space.
But the other stuff--fantastic! Thank you for teaching me some cool things about physics. I hope it's not too obnoxious that I return the favor with a cool thing about dinosaurs.
The answer I didn’t know I was looking for! Follow up thought… are there currently any birds in space? Like on the ISS? Because birds TEND to have bones, and you can’t exactly evolve out of a clade.
@@Connorisreal That's a good question--to which I don't know the answer lol 🤷♀️ But it would be interesting to find out!
@@ConnorisrealAs far as I’ve researched (NASA had a page on all the animals in space) there haven’t been any birds in space, (though there have been some zero g experiments with them on airplanes).
Well technically, there are no ENTIRE dinosaur bones in space. But some of the atoms that were dinosaur bones are most likely in space.
You can also say:
"My bones are partially made of dino bones"
“We are made of star-stuff.” - Carl Sagan
"I've got di-no D-N-A-"
"-No!"
The atoms that were once dinosaur bones were turned into rocket parts and are now orbiting earth
"Any time a headline is a question, the answer is no."
This is called Bettridges Law, named in 2009, it hasn't been shown to be wrong since.
What if the headline is "Is Betteidges Law true?"
@@thundersheild926paradox
@@thundersheild926No
@@thundersheild926the editor wouldn't let it through, because if it was true, it would be an admission that they and others had intentionally acted falsely and thus open them up to litigation.
It absolutely has been shown to be wrong wtf? Multiple studies have looked at it and found that it’s close to half and half, and if anything, leans toward “yes”
Okay, but hear me out here: alien dinosaurs.
as in aliens that look like dinosaurs or dinosaurs that somehow got transplanted to another world and have since developed a means of getting to space?
Or, hear me out, dinosaur astronauts.
No
@@vanhoras3082 the correct response
Well done, you are now a writer for the SyFy channel..
The problem with the reply is that it assumes math based on reentry, not a departure from the atmosphere.
The air and it's molecules get thinner the higher you go up, not the converse as in the math.
Does that mean I think there are dinosaur bones in space?
NO!
Less of an issue than you propose, because the dinojectile will be at it's highest velocity when the air is thickest, so it's going to light up DAMN fast.
@@blarghchan If only every mathematician just ball-parked their numbers as you imply.
This reminds me of Randal Monroe's "What if" books which tries takes stupid questions and answers them scientifically. In fact, the first book also includes a section about launching things into orbit and is where I first learned about the 8 km/s thing. It's a really interesting read if you're into that kind of stuff.
I adore the evil look on the face of the Astronaut as if he's doing something naughty by bringing a fossil into space
...is he _not?_
@@HaloInverse There's pretty severe weight limits. Either he smuggled it on board, or he sacrificed bringing something else just so he could say he brought a fossil to space.
@@MrDj232 Exactly. Totally naughty. Right there, in space. Astronaughty.
unrelated but is your pfp ... magikarp Dan Dan? I hate that I even recognize that but it's gonna haunt me if i don't know the real answer
@@NoxiousAffection That's it exactly
This is exactly what I want when I say said stupid questions. Not just "is there?" but also "what would need to happen FOR there?".. it's the Mythbusters way.
I think the same. Years ago my mom was annoyed at my brother for asking what she considered stupid questions, and as an example she asked him "what if the moon was purple?", to show him how pointless his questions sounded.
But then that got me thinking: what if the moon was purple? What would have to change to allow that? And what would change as a result?
Maybe the material of the moon itself is purple, which would suggest a drastically different origin of not just the moon, but the solar system as a whole, because the very composition of the solar system would have to be different because in its current composition I'm pretty sure there's not that much purple stuff to make a moon out of.
Or maybe the sun itself emits mostly purple light that the moon then reflects, which has even wilder implications because due to what wavelengths are possible in blackbody radiation, purple stars can't exist. So our sun (and by extension moon) being purple would require completely different laws of physics and that changes everything.
I suspect culture, mythology, language, and perhaps economy would even change to some extent. Silver is often associated with the moon in mythology and literature, which affects language. But if it was purple, that wouldn't be the case, because silver obviously isn't purple. And this cultural difference might also change how we value certain materials.
In conclusion, so-called stupid questions can result in the most interesting thought experiments.
@@KingNedya-- At some point un the past, before green plants took over, the ocean was probably dominated by purple algae. There may have been enough to see the dark side of the moon lightly tunged with purple, and this purple reflection may have been visible during a solar eclipse.
The Moon may already have looked the slightest bit purple.
The Mythbusters way would be to construct an orbital cannon and go looking for dead elephants whose bones they could use.
@@KingNedya Dunno if it counts, per se, but there was a series of photos that captured moon image year-round, showing an interesting spectrum of colors we perceive of it over time. I was lowkey mesmerizing for me to look at. Then again, perhaps color relativity may have something to do with it too, but I like the photo itself alot.
@@KingNedya Funnily enough, I remember hearing that it would be more common for alien plant life to be purple than green due to it being more likely that plants would feed off infrared radiation due to its abundance, causing purple pigments.
The quick and decisive "no" that cuts off the ethereal background music sends me every time XD
LOL @ "dinojectile". That "the answer is no" rule of thumb reminds of Betteridge's law of headlines. Wise words.
Well obviously if there aren't any bones in space we need to put bones there
This is true. If we go to space, and there are no bones there, where are we supposed to get our bones? There need to be bones already there, and if there aren't, we have a responsibility to put them there.
(I am being facetious.)
There are bones in space, they're just in the astronauts
be the change you want to see in the space and whatnot
That’s how you get cosmic zombies
How about fossils that might have been ejected into space sometime during the past? Like that mars rock people thought was proof of alien life.
I love when hypothetical questions get definitive answers with a thorough explanation.
Short answer: No. Long answer: No, with work shown.
This was spectacular and enjoyable. Much fun was had by all! Great voice work, great delivery, great art. Also, perfect topic for a stupid lil engineer rant. Loved every second of it.
This is the best moment of my Friday.
Not because it was a bad day, mind you. Cheers!
I hope this leads into each person getting their own handful of episodes, like larry
Yeah i really enjoyed this episode. The friends crew expands! Loooore!!!
I know a lot of engineers and i guarantee if i asked this question to any of them their first thought wouldnt be "no" it would be "we could make sure thats true" and then theorize how they could make a contraption to get a dinosaur bone into space
That part is actually pretty easy. Just put a chicken on the next moon mission.
@@globin3477 If we're willing to count avian dinosaurs, we've already sent dinosaurs to space.
Problem: There are no dinosaurs bones in space
Solution: Put one there
...New Problem: There are no dinosaur bones, just like, generally
@@NoxiousAffection Birb
@@thundersheild926 Oh, neat. In that case, the answer is yes.
I love this character and hope we see more of him.
Yay! Fun. Good job. (I’m really really sad this week, really sad, your video has done really important work this week. Thank you 🙏)
The popsicle stick on the dinosicle asking the question as well is such a cute touch
If you look close, you can see the "No" answer in the ice for after you eat the dinocicle
“Let’s do that Socrates shit that Zee loves.” Awesome quote 😁
This is a quote from a man who has spent a significant portion of his life being Zee's friend. I love it.
Bro, I didn't know how much I wanted an animation about the science behind some crazy D&D shit till now. What a niche. Do the math behind the peasant railgun next.
"Dinojectile"
That made my day a little better.
Finally we get this guys voice, the zee-nimatic universe expands
Zee Bashew channel shape-shifting into an XKCD channel. I'm so here for it
I was gonna say this is the exact kind of Question Randall Munroe would absolutely love to answer with his What If? Videos he’s been doing recently
@@micahwest3566 Fun fact: There's an entire web comic series published by the man himself called "what-if". They are effectively longer form XKCD comics with way more words on them. If that sounds even remotely appealing to you, I highly suggest checking it out.
I like how even in the rant you can still feel the passion for science.
Let's assume a perfectly spherical dinosaur made of ice.
As a dino nerd i admit i had never thought of this before. Thank you for peaking my interest and then crushing my enthusiasm on thinking about it in one video 🤣 🤣
*piquing
@ninjalectualx Whoops, my bad. Leaving as is.
I love this video. Something about your friends dynamic and your framing and "ooo" after he kind of destroy it, feels really relatable. Honestly love to see more videos like this of just silly ideas.
I love asking questions in earshot of knowledgeable people and waiting for the chaos to unfold.
I just learned there's a name for this: Betteridge's Law of Headlines, and that got me right back to this video
Your engineer buddy has a great voice and delivery style
Is Zee not currently trapped in a basement dungeon animating? No.
He does enjoy his Socrates gimmick though
This is what we need, somebody who can seriously and scientifically answer all the stupid questions.
I love the usual content on the channel. But this science informative short? Excellent too.
If the title of an article is a question, the answer is no. That´s a really useful rule of thumb, and definitely something more people should remember. If only to save themselves from wasting time on those kinds of articles
I'm an engineering student, the first sentence made my brain reboot then my next thought was "anything getting enough energy to be ejected into space is getting vaporized first."
Rocket payloads usually manage to avoid that problem.
You might notice there is minor but non negligible difference between shape, size, composition and attack angle of a diplodocus carcass compared to a Saturn V
@@klasodethThat's because rocket thrust lasts for longer than a second
As mentioned in a separate comment, this is precisely incorrect. The shock wave is faster than the rate of any thermally-driven phase change. It's why meteorites (and failed spacecraft) disintegrate rather than vaporize.
There's a _lot_ of ejecta going to space in such an impact. Would it not be possible for all that rubble to punch a massive shockwave through the atmosphere, and some poor mangled creature to "survive" the trip to space?
So technically, birds are dinosaurs and birds have been sent to space. Thus, dinosaurs have been to space.
I've played enough Kerbal Space Program to know that atmospheric drag will tear into you like a crackhead looking for copper wire if you don't treat it with upmost respect
I like how the argument to kill this idea isn't anything about the mechanics of sending a dinosaur into space, but rather the fact that their bones would not survive a Chicxulub-Rocket Jump.
Hear me out, a Dino tower of Babel, but they did reach heaven. No burn up speed if they made a cretaceous space elevator! 😜
@@kyleepratt The asteroid wasn't a coincidence. It was punishment for Dino hubris. Humans got off easy in comparison.
I guess a better worded way to say this would be "Could an already fossilized dinosaur bone have been thrown into space by the impact of the asteroid 66 million yeas ago and sent it outside of earth's orbit and into space."
And the answer is.... maybe.
No, for the same reasons the dinosaur would vaporize. It's be like a reverse meteor, and it'd burn up well before it reached orbit.
@@SikerMinecraft You just need it to be in a bigger chunk of rock initially. We have pieces of Mars that landed in Antarctica, so we know that stuff can be ejected into space from impacts. Just not a living thing bigger than a microbe is all. But a fossil? I don't see why not.
Except for the fact that fossils are so rare to begin with, and dinos were only around for a short period of time not that long ago, of course.
@@SikerMinecraft I seem to remember us finding rocks on earth from mars at some point called "martian meteorites" which granted are ultra rare, but do apparently exist from asteroids or comets knocking bits of mars up into space.
I'm assuming that the opposite would be possible as well, leaving earth and then just going off into space in a direction that doesn't hit another planet.
I can't prove it either way, martian meteorites may just be misclassified terrestrial rocks for example, but it's an interesting thought experiment IMO.
@@sleadaddy Not really. Dinosaurs went extinct at 66MYA when the meteor hit.
But we had our first known dinosaurs as early as 230MYA (but possibly as early as 240MYA but i'll hedge my bets with the more conservative estimate)
So that's about a 164 million year window. It takes about 10,000 years for a bone to fossilize in good conditions. So that window can be reasonably estimated to be about 16,400 times the duration required.
It's weird to think of the world in geologic time, but those dinosaurs were here for a good long while.
Holy crap I was LOCKED IN from the moment he started talking. Excellent breaking down of the science, excellent storytelling, subbed as soon as I saw the link to his channel.
Amazing video, question, answer and animation. Your quality is already a work of art routinely
the fact that be brought up being in orbit as a requirement sticks in my craw because nobody said anything about trying get it to orbit the planet, but ultimately it would take more energy to leave the planet's gravitational pull than to be in orbit anyway so it doesn't technically make a difference. but STILLLL
One of my Spelljammer players is playing a living tar pit plasmoid. So in my game at least, there are dinosaur bones in (wild)space.
I need a friend like that: seriously cobsidering my stupid questions and grounding me with math.
Thank you so much for this. Speaking as an engineer here. So happy this exists.
Been thinking about this, and there are a few edge-cases worth exploring. The answer is still probably no. Numerical inconsistencies like the choice of escape velocity are "reasonable to within a margin of error". At an escape velocity of 10Km/s, with the Karman line transition to space at 100Km above sea level, you really need to survive exposure to extreme temperature for about 10s. Most of the atmosphere is below this level, and above this, you're dealing with heat you soaked up, but that's it.
First effect worth considering is the Leidenfrost effect. This goes a little closer to the ablative heat shield mention, but the idea is if the temperature differential is significant enough, the decreased thermal conductivity of the gas phase of a liquid can shield a solid from further harm. This allows someone to survive dunking a wet hand into molten lead without injury. The key is the gradient MUST be hot enough. This would not be interesting if the duration of the exposure was significantly longer than 10s, but with such a short time, it becomes interesting.
Second, there is the concept of phase change material stabilization. Wrapping something in a material undergoing a phase change can lock the maximum temperature the stored material is exposed to at that of the phase change. As was noted, the sheer amount of energy involved is such that if there were a fraction of a percent of inefficiency (several percent is likely), it would be sufficient to ablate everything involved.
Third, bones still count as bones if they're buried, so the container does not need to be a fleshy dinosaur to allow this to work. You could start with a dead dinosaur encapsulated in mud, sand, or tar. You could have a partially developed dinosaur inside an egg. There are combinations of materials here that lend themselves more to absorbing the heat in the form of a crust. Some options are better than others for thermal barriers, but you don't need to rely on the argument that it's flesh acting as a shield. If you have a layer of sand, you get some benefit of a silica shield, which is what actual space tiles are made of. These are not the same quality as shuttle tiles, but it's better than expecting a flash-frozen dinosaur to survive the trip.
Finally, bones turn to ash over 1250 degrees F, so you have some margin if you have layers of materials absorbing, stabilizing, and re-radiating the heat as you go.
If there were to be bones in space, I'd expect at a minimum you would need to effectively nest bones inside layers of material that take advantage of the sum of these effect. The likelihood of bones encased in alternating layers of thermally absorptive rock, sand, and temperature stabilizing materials probably excluding water (which likes to explode when it boils in a confined space) necessary to protect it is slim to none, but it's worth calling out the directions to dig if there's the slightest possibility of a "Yes". That said, that type of layering is not unlike where we find fossils today.
I think what this has really proved is that the answer is "only if the dinosaurs had spaceships".
If reading Calvin & Hobbes has told me anything it's that they only managed fighter jets.
Could a dinosaur fossil be in space, in a chunk of rock lobbed into orbit by the impact would have been my follow up
There are plenty of Martian rocks being discovered in Antartica
Yeah. Same thing annoys me about myth busters. Idk why the exercise starts from a literal dry bone by itself getting launched somehow.
The bone could be embedded in who knows what, frozen or fossilized.
Even the question of: have dinosaur bones reached escape velocity such that their remains are in space is also pretty interesting IMO
Then the zoologist gets involved and we check if any bird has been to space because they are taxonomically dinosaurs.
And the answer is yes! Quail aboard the Soviet space station Mir
I'm loving this new "The Animated Engineer" series.
As a random engineer friend, that's too high of expectations. No way I'm pulling random numbers like that off the top of my head.
I'm guessing he made a call on the plausibility and then looked up the numbers to back his case. Or he's a literal rocket scientist and he has things like escape velocities and reentry temperatures on tap.
@@schonnj ...It's not that hard to estimate escape velocities as "Really fast (somewhere around a couple km/s)" and "really hot" (idk, they use special ceramic shit for heat shields so that's gotta be hot enough that other materials wouldn't do, and we're asking if a material would hold up)
My sister-in-law once wrote a short paper on whether Godzilla's biology was scientifically feasible for the hell of it, so I understand the reasoning for this.
The answer was NO.
That's just what the alien troodon overlords want you to think
As an ARK player, fuck troodons.
@@Dukayn66 you’ll be happy to know that, as of present, Troodon isn’t considered a valid species.
This is the type of content that keeps me going. Unexpected but DAMN entertaining. Keep it up Zee!
The real problem is that at the kind of speeds we're talking about, the force of the air itself would have a shredding effect that rapidly increases the dinosaur's surface area, which allows faster energy transfer. It's the same thing that happens to a fireball meteor (like the one at Chelyabinsk); the solid mass breaks into pieces and then the pieces break into pieces, and eventually each tiny fragment is small enough to turn to plasma essentially instantly.
This is like 3 Body Problem explanations applied to silly questions. I love it
Counterpoint: What if dinosaurs were smarter than we believe? What if an ancient civilization of intelligent dinosaurs built a rocket and went to space?
We would have found way more interesting fossils than _bones._
Our descendants will be mystified by such relics as "roads" and "styrofoam", and theorize that we must have been made of plastic.
@@sempersolus5511 boooo let me dream lol
@@Sleepy12ftPanda No. If dinosaurs had technology we'd see it in the fossil record. There's plenty of junk humans have already left in layers of rock such that in millions of years there would be no question that we were here. From plastic and ceramics to radioactive isotopes and lead, we have left a distinctive mark on the fossil record. Those last two are literally distributed globally thanks to atomic tests and leaded gasoline.
This was a great episode! I love these videos.
I would love more episodes with him that was really good
"THERE'S LITERALLY EVERYTHING IN SPACE MORTY!!!"
"In space" means "beyond the bounds of the Earth's atmosphere", not "within the fabric of spacetime"
@@PlatinumAltaria Is the Earth in space?
I'm glad this didn't get to just be a short. This was incredibly well animated, charming, and amusing. Then again, I married an engineer. I know very well how deep this logic rabbit hole goes.
Birds are dinosaurs, and birds have been taken to space. Living birds have bones, ergo, dinosaur bones in space.
The “engineer” depicted here looks exactly like my electrical engineering professor.
What an unexpected and fun episode.
I love how the answer isn't "no, the impact wasn't that big", it's "no, dinosaur bones don't have the structural integrity to be catapulted through the atmosphere into outer space."
What's funny is that this notably *wasn't* the answer given in the video, but it *is* the correct answer nevertheless.
Please make this an entire series
This sound like the usual 2 hour conversation that always takes place before every gaming session.
This felt like an angry Hank Green lol. I loved it.
Honest-to-God.This is probably one of the best videos of what it's like to live around me
"The answer is No." I love this! This is generally my response too!
I’m glad this wasn’t a short, most people Mark shorts as “do not show”, we would have never seen it as a short and this is gold Zee
Cat: "Can I has cheeseburger?"
Answer: "No."
But what if...
No 😂
That was honestly a fascinating answer to a fascinating question.
That was pretty great! They even got the intonation and everything spot on.
Definitely Dinosaurs in Space, statistically.
It do be like that.
I was expecting "fossil got ejected" but this is so much better.
If not for my horse
I wouldn’t have spent that year in college
oh and great video man, been loving your stuff for a long time
Everything is in space.
It depends. If we use the definition used in physics to refer to the "fabric" of space itself, then yes, but answering the question that way is lame because then the answer for everything would be yes and it would suppose the question itself is meaningless and so I don't like that answer.
But if we instead use the more colloquial version of the term, which is the near-vacuuous region outside of the atmosphere (or crust if there is no atmosphere) of celestial bodies, then the answer is no, because all dinosaur bones are and have remained within our planet's atmosphere and therefore never entered space. The atmosphere is part of the Earth, so the Earth is in space, but everything within the atmosphere is not.
Essentially, only the second interpretation answers the question as the person asking it intended, and therefore is more valuable and relevant as an answer.
Everything is made up of mostly empty space.
You two should collab more often. His delivery with your animation style is hilarious.
As somebody who has done this kind of thing to my friends many times, I approve of this video.
technically everything is in space, including the earth and everything on it
so yes, dinosaur bones are in space
technically
Actually no, because any dinosaur bones would be destroyed by now or turned into fossils, which aren't bones. There are not currently dinosaur bones in the universe. :p
@@eclipserepeater2466 Unless aliens set up a preserve on their world
@@eclipserepeater2466 Given we have direct dinosaur descendants *and* creatures that have survived (if slightly evolved) to the modern day from millions of years ago, we can argue dinosaur bones are very much in the universe right now. Crocs are a thing, after all.
I mean a modern chicken is just a really tiny T-rex after all, are there chicken bones in space?
@@eclipserepeater2466Actually yes because birds are all technically dinosaurs and they are full of bones and the earth exists in space so there are dinosaur bones in space.
Now we wait for the cooperation with XKCD.
Asking stupid questions within earshot of an engineer is basically just the premise of "What If"
Player:I would like to rol-
DM: *NO* you can’t do it