What's a Grognard?
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- Опубликовано: 22 июн 2023
- Why it's the best word in wargaming and d&d fandom.
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People use it to describe, and sometimes self identify as a sort of older, more grizzled, wargamer/roleplayer who has been in love with the hobby since the beginning 
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"Bear in mind: anything may be attempted"
"You can certainly try"
The ancient wisdom is preserved
Grog(nard) would like to rage.
Embrace tradition by embracing modernity
Also *adjusts glasses 'are you sure?'
Last Christmas my players gave me a cup that says you can certainly try. They gave me this because I say it all the time.
@@roninanwarnow whenever they ask you can just tap the cup instead of saying it.
"Bear in mind the principle that anything can be attempted." Wow that's powerful. If any one sentence could be the DNA of what the DnD is, it's that.
You can certainly try
Should be DNA of any RPG**
I had the exact same reaction, thinking what a verbose phrase that connects to the soul of the game today.
@@therowlet3979 It's basically the 19 hundreds version of this scentence, and it's amazing.
Chills!
I teared up a bit from this. 41 year old player here who played with some older friends in their 50's for a long time. Not grognards in the literal sense, but very much so in spirit. Some of them aren't around anymore and I couldn't help but think about them while watching this and thinking that they would have enjoyed this video a great deal. Good work on this.
I Am So There With You right now! I'm 50, come end of summer, and I still vividly remember "our" oldtimer teaching us how to play his favorite milsims on a sheet of mm-format graph paper… and how grouchy he was about that "silly, boring new stuff" that we liked to play, but still played with us and hell he was a harsh AND imaginative GM
And now I'm harshly tripping down memory lane, asking myself were did we take the wrong turn and left ourself behind… hunting after the m00n3ys, instead of following our hearts
I so need a wholesome gaming session right about now…
Seriously, F**K Depression, memorys hurt
@@LuziferneFor real. Depression taking my happy memories and making them hurt instead because "those times are gone" is some serious BS. It's something I've specifically had to get help with and practice at.
@@Luziferne My grandmother believed that if you were craving a specific food it meant it contained some nutrient you were currently lacking. If you're hungry for gaming with old friends, then call any old friends who might still be around to talk AND find some newer younger friends to game with. You may have to bend and accept their newer games but that's okay. Maybe it's just your turn to be the wiser older gamer now. Be in their memories when your time is passed.
And reuse your old GM's tricks and ideas on them!
39 here, and same; I remember our DM even followed “the grognard” of our our group for advice, who was also HIS Dm in another game, and well… he was a very good friend, though rough around the edges sometimes 😅
@@ArchArturoI am 39 as well. My experience is not with Dungeons and Dragons though. I started with Live Action Roleplay. I played this in my basement with my brother. Characters from The Super Mario Super Show and the Sega Genesis game Shinobi among a few original characters were among the first in the story. That story was later adapted into Text Roleplay online. It was used in Freeform Pencil and Paper Roleplay. I have done literally everything that is Dungeons and Dragons but have not actually played the game itself.
I got a chance to play D&D with Dave Arneson. We played Castle Blackmoor. He didn't do saving throws, you had to describe how you were avoiding whatever was trying to hurt you. It was clear to see he was a story first, mechanics second type of DM/GM.
How was it decided if you took damage? What was the threshold of “good enough dodge”? And how did it work the npc opponents? For example, if you had cast a spell, how would their Save Vs Spells come into play? Would they just be described as dodging it?
That is awesome!
@myrdelgonway5119 Those are attack rolls, not saving throws.
Some of the best clues to how old school grognards played the game differently are in the parts of the core books that have been reprinted unchanged in every edition. Look at the equipment list and try to figure out why there is a ten foot pole standardized and priced out in every edition of D&D.
The ten foot pole has always been in the phb because grognards slowly walked behind the pole while one party member used it to tap sections of the floor and ceiling from ten feet away.
They used the ten foot pole instead of rolling saving throws.
@@CitanulsPumpkin yeah, I get the ten foot pole. So in combat they switched the Save Vs Spells of Magic Staff, Save Vs Wands, Save vs Stone or Paralysis, and Save against Dragons Breath into attack rolls? What would the AC become then?
Oh that is honestly pretty cool.
That's kinda inspiring. I'll quote BlackPantsLegion here: "These guys, nerding about neat shit they like, build an empire". Don't forget that our massive hobby was built by a bunch of nerds.
Those guys don't give themselves enough credit.
Nothing, literally nothing in history wasnt invented by nerds. That weirdo caveman that decided to hit stuff with sticks, while others thought "dumbass, just use your hands", till they got their asses handed to them when they tried to bully him... The bookworm that decided you gotta have a way to find things in books, instead of just having them thrown in haphazardly. The maniac who decided 'electricity goes bzzzz, hihi, lemme throw it through a wire and chuck a magnet at it and see if it can move a piece of paper (invention of speaker)'. People will always make fun of people, calling them nerds, because they try things nobody else has, then hail them as geniuses when they finally see what they were up to.
A bunch of white men, but don't worry, they'll _make_ you forget.
I mean most roleplayers are nerds
Its still carried by a bunch of nerds
Grognard is an amazing Barbarian name as well
I swear I've heard someone be named that at some point.
Could also be an Orc holiday
I'm actually surprised Pratchett never used it, best to my memory, as such. Would definitely have fit on Discworld.
real. I thought the "rumbling" referred to someone being hungry, which that would especially tie into
@@nikolaiandersson6024 Modern fallout has Grognak the barbarian i think that sounds similar
It's also a decent dwarf name. The concept of a venerated group of still active veterans defined and lifted in status by their constant grumbling is the most Dwarf thing I can imagine.
Even back in those old days, "the rules" weren't always followed. There were games played in Prussia -- back when there _was_ a Prussia -- they simulated the war games with detailed lists of precisely what did what, an attempt to use German precision to exactly replicate reality in the simulation. What they found was that the _best_ war games, the ones that generated the best war planners, were the ones that *didn't* follow those precise rules but instead let the players attempt new things, to run risks, to gamble on the unknown outcome, and this served them very well on the battlefield in the future.
It's essentially what's still happening right now with war games that are used in various militaries to train officers. They have a bare set of rules and the adjudicator who's usually a veteran who has enough experience to tell whether a maneuver is actually good or not.
Kriegsspiele was the Prussian game you allude to. The first edition was too crunchy but the author of the game published a second edition. This 2nd edition was simpler and leaned more into the judgement of the game's Umpire.
The international Kriegsspiel Society is trying to bring this method of wargaming back to life! Grand Waterloo with perhaps 90+ players is next month!
Then why is there no Prussia
@@gormauslander Cause they essentially united the entire Germany under their banner?
For April Fools you should make a video much like an old animated spellbook but you're talking about some incomprehensible mechanic of Strategos N. "The grenadiers fall into formation along the bluff while the culverins are loaded behind them. General Skenk L'Genk runs up and down the line on horseback, looking to the next hill for the flag to signal them to advance. He draws his falchion when suddenly (dice roll sound) one of the culverins misfires, Skenk's horse rears up, and the excited army is about to charge... Hi, welcome to the animated codex where we will be talking about resolve rolls versus fortitude score and how YOU can keep your armies IN formation and OFF of Prussian bayonets"
Thank you for this micro fanfic.
I love it!
Is General Skenk L'Genk a cousin of Pepé Le Pew? 🤔
You have a youtube account and clearly a creative mind. I'd give you a like share and follow if you make that video yourself.
@@kellenbigman I have lots of ideas and no animating abilities 🤡
"What, for the definition of this tactic, is a formation?"
"It's an arrangement of soldiers on a battlefield."
"Does artillery count as soldiers?"
"Well no, but--"
"Can a formation include trees?"
"No."
"It worked against Macbeth, seems pretty consistent to me."
"...pass."
"Is mayonnaise a formation?"
"Bear in mind that anything can be attempted" sounds like a good advice to new players and Dms
Bard: "Can I seduce the dragon?"
DM: "Anything can be attempted. But some things only once."
I guess this is basically codifying "you may certainly try" into the rulebook because, like that book said, "anything can be attempted"
Back in the 90ies I had the privilege of Gary Gygax answering a few of my questions via e-mail. As an etymology aficionado I asked him about the word "dweomer", which he used on occasion in spell descriptions, and which I failed to research at the time. He referred me to a book of forgotten words he used: Poplollies and Bellibones - A Celebration of Lost Words by Susan Kelz Sperling. Somehow I managed to get a hold of a copy of this out-of-print book, which is a treasured part of my library now. Since "grognard" isn't mentioned in there, I am grateful for your enlightening video. Thanks, mate.
Holy shit! Someone in my family gave me that book when I was in my teens, and I'm sure it had been in their library for sometime as it was already one of those old, crusty, coarse brown paper kind of books. Loved it and also still have it! Though I gotta admit, our current age is the absolute best time to be a language nerd. I can absolutely understand the pitfall of knowing something but just not knowing *where* you know it from; double-checking yourself via the web is way more accessible than 100s of books you might have read.
Upon reading your comment I immediately sought out a copy of this book. Aside from being into weird language trivia in general, I also do a lot of feywild stuff in my games and that's a goldmine for names.
I love the anecdote, but dude... you gotta share the usage as defined in Poplollies & Bellibones! Googling "dweomer" just references d&d!
@@drdrake17hard agree, please illuminate us mate
Probably my favorite example of gygax using traditional language is him using the traditional version of race
My favourite Wargaming fact is that Peter Cushing (Moff Tarkin) was an avid wargamer, and there's pictures of him moving his little lead mans around tabletops and sometimes floor battlegrounds.
There is nothing grander than commanding vast armies, without actually having to deal with the reality. :D
Total War is the modern version.
So was the original Equalizer himself, Edward Woodward. His earlier character, Callan, was a wargamer in the UK television series of the same name.
I like to think that he would have been super excited to get his hands on a Grand Moff Tarkin model.
Here's another cool thing; when D&D was first coming out, the Dracula movies with Peter Cushing were very popular. And since the undead were a possible enemy, it was decided you needed a Van Helsing type to turn them away. So, he inspired the Cleric
I bet he’d love the fact he is now a unit in many a boardgame and war game.
I lost it at the "if makebelieve spiders scare..." line.
I hope we get a dedicated spin off series about this guy.
This guy is my spirit animal
Love how oxymoronic complaint 1 and 2 are. You believe in immersion (real feelings from fake things), yet fear can't be one of those feelings somehow?
@@twinostrich8045 How is it contradictory though? If someone is letting their personal phobia get in the way of playing their character in a fantasy game, then they're doing a terrible job at immersion. Immersion isn't used as just feelings from fake things, it's used to talk about placing yourself in the shoes of a character.
@@Fluffysbeans Partially contradictory, then. Also, with phobias (true phobias, at least) there's no "letting" it happen. There's no control over it, it just gives you panic attacks. It's no more aviodable than someone with epilepsy having a seizure.
Moreover, enjoyment should be first and foremost the goal of these kinds of games, so if someone's enjoyment or comfort is ruined by certain things or subjects being explored in those games, the game has failed its intended purpose.
It's not possible to distance you from yourself completely. There's a splash of you in every character you play. This is a known principle of acting. It's not just a character, it's your version of that character. Playing that character (and by extension, immersion) is in fact a series and combination of feelings, perpetually influenced by your real feelings, regardless of how the written character might act. So, I stand by my original point.
TIL what a Grognard was, that it was used, and what the early history of war gaming was. Fascinating.
and all in under six minutes!
Yeah, we all did. You're just describing the video we just watched
The history of wargaming is fucking amazing.
That was always my ace in the hole for a technical writing paper in high school and college
And TIL that a grognard was basically a French kvetch.
TIL, TIL
This video reminds me very much of my dad.
At 70+ years old, although he isn't really in the role-playing scene anymore, he still regularly plays games like Baldur's Gate.
And, I owe my involvement in the hobby to him, as seeing the confusing but compelling rules of old 2e on display in that game inspired me to want to pursue it myself.
I think to a greater or lesser extent, all of us in the hobby now owe that to all the old guards who came before us.
So, I salute the Grognards out there. Thank you.
...Session Zero is still important tho it's not *just* about arachnophobia Larry.
I love that about historical advancement on striking the balance between "The Old Wisdom" and "what the hell were they thinking that's a terrible idea"
@@agustinvenegas5238 Measure the wisdom of the ancients against the foolishness of their knaves.
Holy god. He's lived to see Baldur's Gate 3.
Wow. I'm jealous. My span won't reach so far. At least I don't expect it to.
@@JoshSweetvale Good news - guess what game he got for Christmas this year.
Talking to a Grognard for a while at a convention, and hearing him talk with tenderness about his roots in the hobby, really gave me a feeling for how much TTRPGs have moved over the years.
I imagine that when we're all old, TTRPGs probably will have moved so far away from what it is now to the point it's barely recognizable. Appreciate the tables you play in while you're in them, because when you're a Grognard yourself in the future, it might be next to impossible to find something like it again.
Also, appreciate your Grognards, and maybe try out their favorite games. Older people are genuinely great and you'll probably have a fun time. They're the only link younger people like us have to that older generation of TTRPGs, and we should appreciate them for as long as we can.
"Older people are great!" Older people sent people like me to jail for being gay. Or burned us alive. They can rot in their care homes and know the world they loved died a generation ago.
@@MeepChangeling Consider for a moment, that there were older people like you back then, too.
There's a true "René" from Disco Elysium vibe here. A tough cookie attitude, a nostalgia for the old worlds, the resistance to new change. It's really unexpectedly beautiful, with the swelling music.
Less monarchist/fascist support tho
*INLAND EMPIRE:* The figurine is heavy in your hand, not just with lead but with past regrets and could-have-beens. The cold metal is a dead ember of a burnt-out dream.
*PHYSICAL INSTRUMENT:* This is some nerd shit. Chuck it in the river.
@@FanOfMostEverything DRAMA: What-ho sir, finally our chance to prove those asinine Grognards wrong - now onwards General!
Volition: this would probably be a good social activity if we had more time on our hands and more people to play it with.
Harry would be the best worst best player at the table
2:52 this is a perfect example of The Butterfly Effect. That single sentence, written by a single hypernerd who wouldn't know what an air conditioner was for another _30-40 years,_ has led to the founding ideology of a nerd hobby so large whole STORES are dedicated to it, and groups of hundreds of people get together to play out thorough, in-depth stories. Over 1.6 million copies of ONE CORE RULEBOOK have been sold for a game whose founding philosophy can trace its roots to this one, single sentence, probably written by hand.
IDK why but the moment you read the rule "Bear in mind the principle that anything can be attempted." That left me feeling awe, as in...the realization of the roots of TTRPG were so clear that even a relative novice like myself (just started playing online with friends during the lockdown in 2020) could SEE it for what it was.
I'm an X-er so maybe that's why when I hear "grognard" I think of it as a term of endearment. The most negative connotation that I might think of is someone who's a long-time player of strategy games and a real stickler for the rules.
I've seen it used for people who gatekeep excessively, basically if you weren't into the hobby before them they don't want you there.
When I came into the hobby in the late 80s it was definitely a perjorative for gatekeeping old 1st generation gamers who didn't see anything in the new edition or even 1st edition AD&D after Unearthed Arcana as worthy. Their legacy, emboldened by the OSR lives on and is just as righteously moronic as it was then
It is a term of endearment.
@JustMe-tc8qd except its not. I've only heard it used like that in more recent times with the full chested commitment ppl unironically do now
@@JasonKingMonkey cool story..cope harder.
I am a child of such a grognard.
They still get together, with their armies of little lead men. They even have a convention every year on Memorial Day weekend in my state. Dad brought home an entirely new army from this year's con. And hiding somewhere around my parents' house, exists my dad's copy of Chainmail, alongside our copies of AD&D. (Yes: Second Edition is visible in the house.)
They are old - the old man is near 70. And they remember.
Those who can, still play.
And those who can't... Grumble.
HG Wells was a war gamer and made up his own, true story. It was called
Little Wars: a game for boys from twelve years of age to one hundred and fifty and for that more intelligent sort of girl who likes boys' games and books
Little Wars, much like Strategos, is one of the big 'heralds' of Tabletop wargaming. Though the tag line including 'more intelligent sort of girl'...woof that has aged like milk in modern terms but people forget that, at the time, it was actually seen as incredibly progressive.
I cannot believe HG Wells is calling out teenage me for thinking she's 'Not Like Other Girls' from two centuries ago. Get dunked on young Liz, you're not better than other people.
@@luketferIt's very clever marketing, though. What little girl doesn't want to think themselves "the more intelligent sort" and prove it by begging her parents to buy a set for her?
@@luketferespecially when the “intelligent sort of girl” turns out to be incredibly autistic and ends up mutilating their bodies in the name of the “progressive” cult
@@legateelizabethWells is chuckling from beyond the grave
I'm in my 20s, new at the rpg hobby with absolutely no nostalgia on the subject. I absolutely teared up when the guy was missing the old times and his friends and gaming sessions. What a well made video, capable of steering such emotions
I'm 20 too, I've only been half a decade into the hobby and play with people much older than me by a waaays shot. This sorta gave me a new perspective on calling people grognards, since in our circle it's been mostly used as a derogatory term for the latter category of people he mentioned. Maybe not everyone who still plays Battletech in the Succession Wars isn't a grumbly old fart lol
SF Debris has a great series about how Strategos and its predecessors not only led to the creation of DnD, but how those early simulationist wargames actually had an impact upon human history. It's called "The Time of Dragons" for those interested.
I will check it out
My Godfather started me on tabletop gaming back in the 90s. He and his group of friends used the word Grognard as an endearing term for the Old guard. I've become that Grognard as I've gotten older and am known in my current group of players, who all started within the past 3-5 years with the games, as the Grognard of the group.
This is the way.
I consider myself one despite being fairly young due to being raised in TTRPGs. As soon as I could write and count to 20 I was playing Pendragon and D&D with my dad and his friends. Now I'm trying to play with people who have only been playing since 5e was released and it is certainly different
@tx7140 Gotta raise the young bucks right 😉
'Grognard', as I'm most familiar with it, is mostly a way for older gamers to remind themselves that they were young once, and the hobby as we knew it was - and is - supposed to be open for anyone who wants to get involved in it. It's a way to say 'I already knew half of that stuff you just "discovered", and am not sure I want to take the time and effort to learn the _other_ half, but - if that's important to how you play, then I can appreciate that. From over here. Where I'm sticking to what I already know I enjoy, because I'm old now and have so much other stuff to worry about.'
It's not, overall, a bad thing to have self-awareness about.
We owe a lot to that historical wargame boom. My favorite game, Battletech, simply does not exist without the historical wargames that came before it and their DNA is very prevalent in the game's style and structure. It's very much a historical wargame for a history that never existed.
It's good to see Balttletech regaining some popularity, after the mid 2000s dark age that came in the wake of Mechwarrior 4
@@suburban-mech2107 I think it's back in that dark age when Hairbrained Schemes gave up on the PC Battletech. Sad times. There was some brief resurfacing of interest then nothing.
Fr. O. G. It's not that they gave up on Battletech, its that they got bought by Paradox who has them making other stuff now.
On the bright side, Mechwarrior 5 got pretty substantial support the last few years and I've heard Mechwarrior 6 is in the works. So the IP isn't totally dead in the videogame sphere right now.
@@Fr.O.G.You can thank Paradox for that, as for the IP as a whole it is thriving, the mercenaries Kickstarter was massive. The new IlClan era has loads of interesting stories all happening concurrently in all corners of the Inner sphere. Mechwarrior 5 Clans is coming out this year as well
Session 0 is nice to get along with others you don't know too well yet, or brainstorm about character relations, as well as having the DM help new players (or players whose INT score is too low to remember all the numbers that have to go into a character sheet, like me) make their characters playable.
Most importantly for me, it helps everyone get on the same page with expectations about the campaign. Both thematically (e.g. the seriousness factor), mechanically (monster types, what skills won't be as useful), and socially (how much story and RP will happen).
Sometimes your elders are insightful, sometimes they are outdated and stubborn about it. Grognards don't necessarily know better.
It is essentially a formalization of what most players would have done anyway back in the day - talk to each other about the kind of game they want to play and who they would like to play in that game.
It's good sometimes to formalize things we do so that they don't get taken for granted.
@@keldencowan
The thing with the dislike of session 0 is mainly due to the the accepted conversion that grognards had, which was every session is a session 0.
Also, for most of the problems that NEED a session 0 now, Grognards didn't have much. There was no division between Story, RP and Mechanics, there are only a handful of skills that Mechanically matter and all where useful (except for fuckimg barbarians), and considering it was a group of nerds in the 80s, they all wanted a thematic and serious game. As for preventing trauma or making sure everyone is happy.... again, it was the 80s, they where likely treated far worse at school, or had thicker skin.
The issue is not them knowing better or not, but an inability to fathom that things changed enough to reach this point in the first place. Said changes are mainly because DnD as a franchise has carried out so many experiments and innovation, that while half are near godly, the other half is dogshit or actively worse.....
Tldr, it's a uniquely DnD problem, and you won't need a session 0 if you're playing other ttrpgs like "Traveler".
@@jasonfurumetarualkemisto5917 I dunno man, I can't QUITE agree about that. Because the problem is, is that a lot of folks have different expectations of when they wanna play an RPG. I agree that some folks can probably go without a session 0 if they've BEEN with a group for a long time, but like... Here's one example.
I myself love rogue-likes. Death of my characters and starting over is not a big deal to me. But everyone else in my group, save for the GM and his wife? Fucking HATES character death. They can't STAND the idea of losing a character they put so much time, effort, and love into. Don't get me wrong, I love my characters too, but I am FINE with the thought "If I die, I'm an adventurer and not all of us always make it." thought process. But no one else at my table likes that or has fun with that. And so what came up at session zero?
"How do players feel about character death?" And like... I don't -like- that my fellow players feel like they got safety mitts on. Buuuut me and the GM also have an understanding, that if MY character specifically dies, that he knows I won't, as a player, feel down and out about it. The others might be a little freaked out (Cus much as I love them, they ARE marshmallows, save for the GM and his wife), but it sets that expectation. Then again, my thought when it comes to RPG is Studio Ghibli level of fantasy meets Through the Breach. Or another example? I freakin' LOVE horror. Two of the other players? Get the absolute heebie jeebs. I cater a bit and try to keep the creepier shaz at bay, but ultimately when I GM, I try to know my crowd and keep'er going so that everyone at the table has fun, ya know? That said, we known eachother for years now, so Session Zero doesn't really happen. We just go "Have yer character sheets done by this time and off we go."
Final example is one that -definitely- gives people the willies, is sexual themes. My personal stance is that yeah, things can get a bit raunchy, but if it's clear folks are about to bone? Fade to black. Pure and simple. Bad puns, silly one-liners, or shaz like that, too easy. Usually when the GM for our DnD makes a bawdy character, we'll crack some jokes, and they might hit on a character, and 90% of the time it gets rebuffed as our characters are up to shaz anyway, but a few times, I was like "..Yeah screw it, Gleam here could use a win." and say "Yeah they take her up on her offer." and the two vanish behind a door... aaaaand that's it. Comes out later, silly one-liner or two. But some other folks at the table? They -hate- being hit on in real life, and having the GM, even in-character, "flirt" with them makes'em extremely uncomfy, ya know? I mean ya gotta remember, not everyone's a great actor, and some folks just can't, frankly, roleplay worth a shite. They're there to wargame without the wargame I guess. But hey, we're all there for fun, right? So it's better to just ask "Hey. Some shit here might be sexually explicit, like folks being nude n' possibly monster-mashin'. We cool if that's there even if we fade to black, or would that put y'all off your game entirely? Or you good with it so long as you don't gotta be around that?", than to just go into that and later find out one of your players became super detached and just wanted out but was too awkward to say, yeah?
So I'd say for a new group, when ya don't know folks? A session zero ain't a bad thing. Once ya know how they are as players and have had 2-3 months of once-a-week sessions, or something like that? I think it's safe to say you can skip session zero -IF- you actually communicate with your players regularly. Personally, I got no beef with however folks wanna run a campaign so long as it's not a clear "GM vs the Players" kinda bullshite, I'd just play a damn board game at that point. But otherwise? Like anything, a Session Zero is a tool, and it should just be used as necessary, pure and simple.
TL;DR - Session Zero has it's place. If you know folks long enough, ya can probably skip it if you all communicate regularly anyway, but with new goobers, doing it a time or two has its uses.
As a resident of MN, there are so many people I know that invest half of their personalities on historical events. My high school literally had what we called a 'history tour' which was a two week class trip where we went to different historical sites along the East Coast. You had to pass a history class just to go. But the Gettysburg tour guide had the best stories about other tour groups that were more... Urban than our school just being allowed to frolic in long grass.
Ok so this is only slightly related to tabletop wargaming and it's history but I always found this story great, even though it may be apocryphal.
Essentially Wargames were used to help train officers before and during World War 2, the women were the ones pushing the pieces around, taking orders from the officer to their commander in the field and taking the reports from the commander in the field back to Officer who was sat in another room with their own, smaller, table representing the state of the battle as they had guessed it from the reports (which was meant to teach the Officer of 'you will never have enough information, a lot of it isn't going to be very accurate, do the best with what you've got').
Now those same women, unlike the Officers, were there day in day out, learning tactics. Some of them even stayed late and begun playing the wargames themselves. The higher ups realized this and thus if one particular Officer was cocky he would be put against 'The Girls'. Now most Officers would laugh this off, what did these women know about war? They proceeded to get absolutely stomped because these women were, as mentioned, in there day in, day out, through all kinds of scenarios, they saw all the faults that these Officers were making during training, they had been listening, learning and refining the entire time.
The lesson for the Officer in training was this, don't underestimate anyone during war, you may think them some upstart nobody but even those upstart nobodies, with enough experience, can outdo all your book learning because they have 'in field' experience. Essentially 'you're not the hot shit you think you are and thinking that way is going to cost you the lives of your troops and probably the battle'.
For a similar experience, look up 'the story of the U-boat wargamers' which had the Wrens be instrumental in countering the U-boat threat during WW2 via the use of wargaming.
Women, gotta love em
Officer A: "You fight like a girl!"
Officer B: "Oh please, I can only _dream_ of being so ruthless and omniscient."
Yeah, I remember hearing that the term “hit point” originated in US Navy war games where it referred to how many 16-inch shells it took to sink a ship. Every human being has one hit point.
That’s very cool I hope that it actually happened
The book "of dice and men" is one my personal favorites for a great lore book, plus a fun way of writing, and lastly written by a TTRPG player refinding the love for the hobby again.
Absolutely love this direction. Your VO, storytelling and animation skills come together for truly unique content that I always come back to
Amen
This is one of my favourite episodes of yours Zee! Loving the etymological history deep dive
When describing a Grognard, all I could think was
"That's a Dwarf. You're describing a Dwarf right now."
Grognard the French Dwarf. You're welcome for your next character concept XD
Comparing a good honest dawi to one of those foul treacherous cowardly frogs, now THATS a grudgin
I'm now imagining Dwarf Barbarian in a mime outfit silently raging as he goes around knocking people out with a stale baguette.
As someone who plays dwarfs in everything and as someone who played whfb i agree but also hate the idea of being compared to a bretonnian player in anyway.
Honestly if we follow Warhammer lore the Grognards just sound like the dwarfs “Longbeards”, ancient skilled warriors who famously complain and grumble. Now I want to make an old dwarf PC who is a archetypical Grognard
Not 'The Little Corporal'?
"We walked up the ThAC0 both ways" is such a wild quote when you know what it is 😂
To Hit Armor Class 0?
@@giraffedragon6110 precisely
Before my FLGS shuttered its doors, I was known as The Young Grognard. My obsession at the time was RPG history, and I was passionately convinved, that while the mechanical side of things had clearly improved over the decades, that we had lost something along the way. I would spend hours in the game store's library of AD&D books and magazines, buying just enough to not get kicked out. I would scour cons for old and obscure RPG books and built up quite a library.
This was when 5e was still rumors and speculation, so I struggle to call myself young anymore, but I'm proud to have worn the title.
I've more than softened on the 'older is better' attitude, but I learned some valuable lessons along the way, and made a few old wargamers' day with my passion for their hobby.
I first got into the tabletop gaming hobby through WH40k back in 2004. It was the tail-end of 3rd ed, and even now I can remember that first GW store that I've been to in the mall. I was 12 at the time, and the space was small with only two or three tables. Movie soundtracks and Rammstein were blasted on the speakers. I even remember the smell of all the paint and glue, the books, and of whatever the terrain pieces were made of. The staff were awesome and would go the extra mile for special events--I remember one where someone was actually melting and stamping wax seals while we played a narrative battle to hand out as rewards--and even the older regulars were always patient and nice, and they were all just fun and hilarious.
That was almost 20 years ago. It's all gone now. The location closed before 2010, if I recall. I never saw any of those people since, nor has any other gaming store elicited the same feeling. Maybe it's because it was my first, and because I was just an impressionable kid, and I'm sure if I could go back to it now as an adult, I might see it all differently. But every now and then I'll wonder whatever happened to those people I played with.
50 year old ex-player here. I've become so disheartened in the last 5 years, but this video gave me hope again. Thank you Zee! Maybe I can "get the band back together" and we can see who is and who isn't a Grognard these days!
The history of wargames and RPGs is facinating. I hope you do more!
How this got started being used as a gaming term is easy to research. As someone who started wargaming (minis, Avalon Hill, SPI, etc.) in the early 1970s and added D&D to the gaming mix when it was first released in 1974, this story is well known. To quote from actual websites in the know . . .
""The term 'grognard,' as applied to veteran wargamers, was first coined back in the early 1970's by John Young. He was, at that time, an employee for [the board] wargame publisher SPI, and the use of the term around the office (and among the local play testers) soon led to 'grognards' being mentioned in one of SPI's magazines (Strategy & Tactics). Several hundred thousand board wargamers picked up the term from that publication and it spread to computer wargamers, as the the board wargamers (the ones with PCs, of course) were the first people to snap up computer wargames when they appeared."
I salute all the grognards that helped lay the foundations for our ttrpgs. May creativity and collective storytelling prosper evermore.
This is one of my favorite nerd culture-related story, what with the way it connects culture and language across hundreds of years through this one bizarre through line. I've told it many times and I love the way you told it. 😃
GM Word of the week is one of my favourite podcasts while I'm painting miniatures. Touches on all sorts of things relative to the hobby. I'd recomme d the Gelatinou Cube, the Ten Foot Pole and the Barbarian episodes for starters!
Jon Paterson's "Playing the World" has one of my favorite little stories of how Gygax became enamored with TTRPGs and Blackmoor
I must make a character around this now for modern D&D and compain the whole time, cause man... we old.
I was a lucky one in that my old timer, RIP Rey, was just as much a fun guy as the 20 somethings that made up our FLGS group. His characters were what you expected of a veteran player of many additions and systems, and he was always willing and ready to assist with any issue that arose either on the player side or the DM side. He was a great man and though the time I knew him was short, I will fondly remember it and him always.
Heard the word many times before, never knew all this. Thanks for the etymology!
Wow, this absolutely captivated me for this. I've always been interested in the history of ttrpgs and wargames but with things that have such a long and fascinating history it's difficult to know where to start and what's useful and a rabbit hole of pointless bullcrap. This is a good bouncing point not even for the term Gorgnard, but for the history of ttrpgs and wargames as a hole.
Good video Bashew, keep it up!
I appreciate how this is animated opposed to just several pngs, makes me immensely nostalgic for old flash videos on newgrounds. And by animated, I mean animated! That's some expression right there, Lindybeige would be in awe of those gestures.
I loved this vid !!! 52 year old Grognard here playing since 80’ and DMing the same Campaign since 86’. Although I think my generation grumbles far less than the current internet troll. Happy TTRPGs (TT meant something else in my day) is alive though wish there was more variety. Cheers to us all and now you kids should GET OFF MY LAWN BATTLE-MAP !!!!
I get teary eyed whenever I get to thinking about about how much history there is in these hobbies. How wargames and ttrpgs are a confluence of so many forms of human expression and entertainment. How every thing is connected.
I'm gonna name a orc character Grognard and make them all frustrated and grumpy. They're the grizzled veteran who's seen it all and they've long ago stopped caring about coming across as polite to their superiors.
History major here, been playing since 1991 so we have the sweet spot here:
"Of dice and men" David M Ewalt
"Slaying the Dragon "Ben Riggs
"Designers and Dragons" -Cant remember
First one is more on the business and has an actual interview with Lorene Williams. Second is an exhaustive history of the collapse of TSR and how Wizards saved it. Third is more of a general overview of all TTRPGs in the 70s and early 80s. All are fascinating I love the subject of TSR can't get enough of the history of RPG games.
This deep cut of lore in our hobby is one of my favorites you've ever done. Well done Zee!
You’re such a great storyteller I didn’t feel like I was learning history I felt like you were telling a story and I was intrigued and my attention was held the entire time. I’m sure the visuals help but the way you tell your tales is profound to me.
that fire scene with simply "the grumblers" honesty gave me goosebumps. the respect of the OG grumblers.
I loved this video and how you separate the good and the bad of the grognard. People who just miss the games of their youth and want to reminisce and play them again. And people who get mad at the new wave of games being played. As someone who really enjoys the older elements like minmaxing and building in game resources i salute you
It's incredible how influential the Napoleonic Wars are in the roleplay space. I actually play an ARPG that's set in the NW with a group of friends. We form a regiment, and battle other regiments of the same. Sometimes we re-enact historical battles as they happened, other times we go down that road of infinite possibility, "What if...?"
I enjoy your content Z! Wish people in my country played DND so i can give it a shot lol.
Thanks for this very amusing video. I'm a 1.5 gen Gamer, having learned to play D&D from OG (original Grognards) gamers. I have fond memories of the couple of gaming mentors who have passed on to the great dice lands. While I won't say I agreed with their opinions on new rules and change, I will say I miss their presence. They were a special breed, one that I doubt we will see again.
Playing old war games with a bunch of old grumblers sounds pretty funn
Glad you're still making videos
I've been hit in the Grognards, and damn it hurts.
This was also what made old school Battletech so awesome. The history of Battletech was played out and later recorded.
Bear in mind the principle that anything can be attempted. Oh so very true with how unbelievably out of the box some players think to get out of a situation.
Never been so early! Happy to see this random burst of recent video uploads.
Hey, Zee, I know it would be a long and timely endeavor, but have you thought about doing anything similar to the Cold Road again? A story that comes out in litte episodes was really cool and i often find myself going back to rewatch them either indidivudally or the full story video.
Given 5th Edition is going out, and 'One D&D' is coming in the next year, prepare for a whole new generation of Grognards
I'll be real. I fucking love grognards. They're grumpy old bastards, but if you manage to get on their good side (which is honestly much easier than one would expect) you can expect to be invited to the most entertaining games of your life, be they one off war-games, RPG sessions, or expansive campaigns.
Now I have a beautiful video to point people to when they ask what the hell I mean! Thanks Zee :D
That apocrypha about Napoleon is weird to me.
Because "grognard" is a super old French word meaning "old/retired warrior". It came to mean "complainer" in modern French because during the Napoleonic wars, the old warriors would return and bitch about the conditions and whatnot.
So to have some apocryphal story make Napoleon the origin of the modern definition is like 6 layers of strange.
So in other words, even back then there were grognards, and over time they changed the meaning of the word by complaining too much!
That's a much better story than that famous general of perfectly average height coming up with it.
Ahhh, good ol' folk etymology and semantic shift
Oh thank goodness. I always knew the word to translate to "old soldier." So Zee's story, while enjoyable, did make me start to question a few things.
I'm curious, do you have a source for 'grognard' meaning 'old warrior' before the 19th century? Grammatically speaking, the word derives from 'grogner'/'to grunt' which can be linguistically traced all the way back to the Latin 'grunnire' with the same meaning: I can't find any instances of its use to described soldiers prior to the Old Guard, regardless of whether Napoleon coined the term himself.
(Sorry if I seem a bit like a modern grognard, I just love this stuff😅)
What is your source ? According to the wiktionnary, it's the other way around : grunnire (growl in latin) -> gronir (old french) -> grogner ( grumble in modern french) -> grognard ( old warrior who grumble during napoleonic wars)
Seriously appreciated you made a video that actually put grognards in a good light.
Insanely compelling video, this was beautiful to watch
This was a great video. I find the history of this hobby to be fascinating. If people want to learn more I would recommend the book “of mice and men’ by David Ewalt (sorry of dice and men)
do you mean "of dice and men" by David Ewalt?
Yes sorry editing error on my part
@@patriciaschonrock2929how many dice will we have on our farm George?
@@patriciaschonrock2929 thats alright
Thanks for adding a disclaimer to avoid links! The comment sections on RUclips are prone to spam, and this should help people remain alert.
Stay safe, everybody!
As a French, History buff and relative newcomer to the hobby, I was so surprised to hear people identify as grognard. It fits so perfectly. The complaining, the self importance, the sense of respectability.
Was always curious as to why they chose to identify with Napoleon's veterans, thank you for the enlightening video.
If people want to know more:
Pre-D&D History - "Playing at the World" by Jon Peterson although it can be hard to find a copy.
The creation of D&D up until Gygax's ouster from TSR - "Game Wizards" by Jon Peterson.
How players took the hobby and made it their own - "The Elusive Shift" by Jon Peterson (Really anything by Jon Peterson, even his youtube channel is awesome).
Everything TSR from Gygax's ouster till the Wizards Purchase - "Slaying The Dragon" by Ben Riggs.
Ever since you moved your videos to the friendly local game store, your videos and lore have massively improved. I am serious when I say you need to construct a pilot for an actual show set in this world and start pitching it. Get some cool people from the RPG community to voice characters in it, and throw in a bunch of easter eggs.
Streaming services with the success of Critical Role, and inevitably the success of The Adventure Zone, are goign to want more and more RPG shows, this would be a relatively cheap show compared to a lot of the adventure based ones... I really think it could sell. You probably wouldnt get MAX (lets be real, Fool's Gold is going to get to be the one on Max when someone there scoops it up)
But you could be the netflix show, since they are being cheap right now and on the downturn!
I love rewatching this video. It’s fantastic and heartwarming.
The history of the hobby is INCREDIBLY interesting!
I have a lot of family from Minneapolis, and one relative of mine (albeit distant) was actually a friend of Arneson's - Stephen Rocheford. He played the part of D&D's first real arch villain in The Temple of the Frog, the formidable St. Stephen the Rock. I didn't know any of this myself until after I had gotten into the game myself. This is a wonderful video!
As a Minnesotan its amazing how often I find out so many ideas, concepts, and talent came from here.
As a man that made the absolute *leap* from D&D 2e to 5e... I often feel like a Grognard. I often look at the simplifications, the shortcuts, and say "That doesn't make sense. Back in 2e, we-blahblbabhblabblah". I think almost everybody that has played a "previous edition" has preferred it over the newer ones. I still remember trying to get into 3.5, and *hating* it because it changed so much from 2nd Edition. Not a month prior, I complained about THAC0, but during the tryout, the entire group said they kinda missed it.
Thankfully, the people I've been playing with via FoundryVTT are pretty chill and have let me homebrew and mod the shit outta my 5e games to make it more... I dunno, one of them called it "crunchy"? Never really looked into that word, but a quick bit of research tells me that it can be both a positive and negative thing... Either way, be patient with your Grognards, with your Old Guard. Sometimes, you just need to slowly convince them to at least give it a shot.
I find the classic line, "Look, if you don't like it, you NEVER have to try it again." works pretty well.
Holy cow. This concept should be a podcast.
Playing at the World: A History of Simulating Wars, People, and Fantastic Adventure from Chess to Role-Playing Games from Jon Peterson is a great resource for the history of our hobby.
I love grognards, their war gaming roots, their passions. They push you to think on your feet and face consequences.
The animated typing is weirdly impressive
Went in thinking I was getting a term clarification.
Got a history lesson on the humble beginnings of TTRPGs. And I'm ABSOLUTELY all for it 😁😁
"Battles with Model Soldiers" by Donald Featherstone is a great introductory point to the history of tabletop wargaming, Featherstone also has many many many other books on the subject. But Battles with Model Soldiers is the jumping in point.
As a wargamer I admit I remember times I will never get back, painting minis till like 10pm to be ready for a torniment I bottomed in only to get a trophy or rolling 99% 1s and 2s in game 1, but still smiling after. A hobby should always bring joy first.
Respect to the person who keeps up with the GW rules schedules. I don’t know how you do it.
Ah man I never used em but I still own a few of my dad's old lead figures I'm proud to call myself a grognard as my forfather was
This is probably my favourite Zee Bradshaw video. I don’t really care about the subject, so any inaccuracies are fine by me, but the storytelling is top notch and that *made* me care.
Glad you pointed viewers to Secrets of BlackMoor
Thank you for not pooping on oldies.
Great video. Really brought into pathos on this one.
The 'Designers & Dragons' books are a great overall history of the industry.
this was immensely interesting!!!! this kinda talking informative video was so entertaining to watch! thank you for trying something like this Zee, i love your kinda long form videos like this with all the others :) I regularly go back and listen to the cold road again and again.
I do like how music was used in this video, it is very effective
As someone from the twin cities, I'm honored to have such a wonderful RPG history
It was a funny moment at the hobby shop when my little brother described asking the owner for paint recomendations as “asking the great Grognard his wisdom” he seems to mainly use it as a term of respect for people who’ve been in the hobby longer then us.
I love the idea of soldiers being so formidable that they're allowed to complain...