Yes! The black and white is really cool and his graphic shapes are a lot of fun to look at. The book doesn't take itself too seriously and that must have been hard to do with all that pressure.
Yeah, there is no shortage of Batman comics with the traditional style of American superhero drawing. I like to see something novel and interesting once in a while.
Beautiful. I love an artist going further into their own crazy abbreviated language. I find this stuff incredibly masterful and graceful (for real!) ~Normies get irked...let them ... most Artists can see this guy is clearly in his own zone, on his own level......and theres no stopping him. I love it.
I stand by the idea that the colors were intentionally weird and over the top. Miller . He had Lynn approach it like a complete novice trying to appeal to think like what an non-artist would come up with if given access to all these tools.
I think you're onto something here Tom. I dig it more without the colors, but I've never thought of it as a complete waste either. It's a wild ride without any regard for the rider.
I just finished reading DK2 today, for the very first time. I loved it. I don't think I would have if I read it two decades ago though (and I was already an adult collector at the time). But after 20+ years of horrible computer color in your average comic, Lynn's work here really pops for me, and it's because it's so garish. It's like a punked up version of what was going on at Image, much like the new generation presented in DK2. So much of this book was tricky to navigate but I think it probably feels even more timely now than if I had read it when it was first published. Sure it's not the masterful work of DKR, but how many masterpieces does a person have in them anyway? I think after all the dust has (mostly) settled DK2 is a solid Frank Miller comic.
In black and white, it looks like graffiti art. And despite the deliberate attempt to make it ugly, there are times his skills still come through. I've always seen this as a Superman story, though. The character arc is his.
Honestly, the story is what's best about this book. The artwork is better in black and white but it doesn't keep it from looking awful... just not completely awful like it is in color. Plus what was with the Green Lantern in this?
Thanks for doing this! I went in thinking I was totally going to disagree with you. As a colorist with a crazy palette myself I’m a huge apologist and fan of DK2 from the word jump. But I see now how sublime and leaps and bounds better it is in black and white. And that’s my argument for the new FM covers that have been largely roasted. I think it’s a natural progression in the de-evolution of distilling his own art in a constant pursuit of deconstruction. The genius is there-it’s the colors that are dragging it down. Miller is best in b&w and should really be colored correctly if at all. Bad choice to do any kind of modern technique or rendering. (But I have affection for those crazy colors still!)
Fantastic video! Thanks so much for sharing this and your thoughts here. What a difference the colors/lack of colors makes this work. I love DK2 for everything that it is (other than the 2 page spread of the "bat-signal" and triangle cut out batman...I can't even capitalize those while writing, lol).
I really love DKII especially Varley’s work here, she’s really pushing the boundaries and the fact that it pisses off the traditional comics fans is part of what makes it so effective
Miller is reaching for transgressiveness here as well and leaning more into his cartooning style and instead of matching with Varley or her with him it creates a juxtaposition of styles
Aw it's so great in black and white. It's an absolute work of art. It's an artist just going for it and it's beautiful. Adding the colour is just making it into a comic book to sell. I like it in colour too.
This was my first read on the story. I didn't even know DK2 exists so I never knew about the terrible reviews. I thought it was really good. After reading I looked for reviews and only then I saw the bad feedback and hate comments about the book saying DK2 stands for Donkey Kong 2. This is a good book, a good Frank Miller book, Batman story by Frank Miller and that's all it is. It really is good.
Fascinating stuff. Though I thought this was a disappointing disaster when it came out, in a way it’s more interesting to analyze than TDKR-even if TDKR is vastly superior. Btw Grant Morrison made an interesting defense of DK2 on a podcast once, (I think it was fat man on Batman) that made me appreciate it a little more.
I'm in the minority in preferring ALL of Miller's mature self-drawn works over his works where he was only the writer. His artwork is fearless and inimitable and fits his writing voice perfectly. Tier 1 works: The Daredevil run, Ronin, Dark Knight Returns 1 & 2, Elektra Lives Again, Sin City, Holy Terror [the story is controversial, but the artwork is a tour de force], 300, Xerxes... Tier 2 works: Batman Year One, Elektra Assassin, Daredevil Born Again, Martha Washington, Hard Boiled, All Star Batman & Robin, Superman Year One etc.
Excellent video topic and great comparisons. I'm a big fan of Frank Millers work and style, but when DK2 came out, it stopped me cold. It was 2 different. The coloring was 2 garrish. The character designs were 2 simplified and almost like characatures. It didn't feel like a completed project. It felt like an early draft. Or it felt like the artist had a stroke. As worst, it felt phoned in.
No, but it reads better if you take the words away! Okay, seriously, I reread it recently and it's still a mess, but there are good things in it I had forgotten I saw there first, like Wonder Woman acting like someone from an Ancient culture, or the Question written as Ditko's version with no apologies.
The writing was awful on DK2, much too anti-heroic. Lots of comics try to "innovate" by turning their backs on the concept of the hero. Grisly color, naked Justice Leaguers, and hot chicks talking politics COULD work if the heroism works. I was disappointed.
Not a fan of Miller's art-work,at all. DkRs art was-OKAY-for me,but,the whole concept of a retired Batman,female Robin,etc,etc,..is what intrigued me. DK2's art-work was hot-GARBAGE-was surprised Miller's art actually got worse than Returns art-work. I don't know if it's because Miller has gotten older or not,but,his work has taken a major nose dive.
I love you Tom, but this is cope. Frank is drawing like he has a marker in his fist; it's sloppy, it's crude, it's ugly. This was done, largely, on purpose; he was high on a lot of the work he was seeing at SPX and wanted some of that kinda punk aesthetic in the book. Varley is matching that aesthetic of crude, primitive, sloppy and ugly. The whole thing feels like a punch in the mouth. Also, we can't discount the unknowable situations behind the scenes. It's a possibility that Frank was already well in the bottle *before* 9/11. It may have been a direct dictate that the coloring look as garish as it does. I mean, this period is not something Frank discusses, so we'll never know, but laying the bulk of the blame on Varley seems like a bad take, imo.
Welcome back Tom. Weve missed you. Here's hoping for many more videos! Hope you're well.
I didn’t even know about this Noir version. Looks cool in black and white.
Both versions are great in my eyes, but I was really into scene/graphics packs and stuff in the 90s and the color version has that vibe
Love hearing your insight on works like this!
Yes! The black and white is really cool and his graphic shapes are a lot of fun to look at. The book doesn't take itself too seriously and that must have been hard to do with all that pressure.
That Martian Manhunter sketch reminds me so much of something Jeff Lemire would draw
This looks amazing in black and white!!
I think the drawing of Lois Lane in the locket is based on Shuster's original portrait of Lois Lane.
The black and white colors fit Frank's art style.
Looks incredible in black and white.
Wow. What a difference with the B&W. Thanks for sharing.
This is my favorite video I've seen of yours. I love the honesty, and your own edits to illustrate the points you're making- kudos
I love Miller's style here. It's infinitely more interesting to look at than some basic house style cape pamphlet.
Yeah, there is no shortage of Batman comics with the traditional style of American superhero drawing. I like to see something novel and interesting once in a while.
Beautiful. I love an artist going further into their own crazy abbreviated language. I find this stuff incredibly masterful and graceful (for real!) ~Normies get irked...let them ... most Artists can see this guy is clearly in his own zone, on his own level......and theres no stopping him. I love it.
That's a great way of putting it a bit like the artist Henri Matisse
I stand by the idea that the colors were intentionally weird and over the top. Miller . He had Lynn approach it like a complete novice trying to appeal to think like what an non-artist would come up with if given access to all these tools.
I think you're onto something here Tom. I dig it more without the colors, but I've never thought of it as a complete waste either. It's a wild ride without any regard for the rider.
I’ve always loved DK2. He was never going to top the original. This was the right way, just go balls out gonzo madness
Hope you color this one with your pallet! It really is a whole different experience without the early digital color.
i like Tom's colors in other works (Super Powers, others). it would be cool to see a version colored by him.
I just finished reading DK2 today, for the very first time. I loved it. I don't think I would have if I read it two decades ago though (and I was already an adult collector at the time). But after 20+ years of horrible computer color in your average comic, Lynn's work here really pops for me, and it's because it's so garish. It's like a punked up version of what was going on at Image, much like the new generation presented in DK2. So much of this book was tricky to navigate but I think it probably feels even more timely now than if I had read it when it was first published. Sure it's not the masterful work of DKR, but how many masterpieces does a person have in them anyway? I think after all the dust has (mostly) settled DK2 is a solid Frank Miller comic.
In black and white, it looks like graffiti art. And despite the deliberate attempt to make it ugly, there are times his skills still come through. I've always seen this as a Superman story, though. The character arc is his.
I actually loved DK2, mostly because if his character designs. This looks even better though
A lot of what makes the first DKNR work is the color job.
This is worth 2 million to me. It's extremely memorable and iconic. And the art is great, it just has more indie comic sensibility than super hero.
Honestly, the story is what's best about this book. The artwork is better in black and white but it doesn't keep it from looking awful... just not completely awful like it is in color. Plus what was with the Green Lantern in this?
Excellent, work, Tom! Love the analysis!
Thanks for doing this! I went in thinking I was totally going to disagree with you. As a colorist with a crazy palette myself I’m a huge apologist and fan of DK2 from the word jump. But I see now how sublime and leaps and bounds better it is in black and white. And that’s my argument for the new FM covers that have been largely roasted. I think it’s a natural progression in the de-evolution of distilling his own art in a constant pursuit of deconstruction. The genius is there-it’s the colors that are dragging it down. Miller is best in b&w and should really be colored correctly if at all. Bad choice to do any kind of modern technique or rendering. (But I have affection for those crazy colors still!)
Fantastic video! Thanks so much for sharing this and your thoughts here. What a difference the colors/lack of colors makes this work. I love DK2 for everything that it is (other than the 2 page spread of the "bat-signal" and triangle cut out batman...I can't even capitalize those while writing, lol).
I really love DKII especially Varley’s work here, she’s really pushing the boundaries and the fact that it pisses off the traditional comics fans is part of what makes it so effective
Miller is reaching for transgressiveness here as well and leaning more into his cartooning style and instead of matching with Varley or her with him it creates a juxtaposition of styles
I love the Noir edition- so much better!
I love this episode -- thank you! I had no idea this b&w edition existed.
Looks GREAT in B&W!!! Thanks for the heads-up Tom!
On it's way to me now!
Aw it's so great in black and white. It's an absolute work of art. It's an artist just going for it and it's beautiful. Adding the colour is just making it into a comic book to sell. I like it in colour too.
Great video, Tom!
i aways remember my friend saying: men, this guy drew this shit with the foot! LOL
i love the millers art in this book! XD
This looks fabulous. Great video.
I adore fetishistic discussion of mark making, that's what I call top tier content.
This was my first read on the story. I didn't even know DK2 exists so I never knew about the terrible reviews. I thought it was really good. After reading I looked for reviews and only then I saw the bad feedback and hate comments about the book saying DK2 stands for Donkey Kong 2. This is a good book, a good Frank Miller book, Batman story by Frank Miller and that's all it is. It really is good.
Fascinating stuff. Though I thought this was a disappointing disaster when it came out, in a way it’s more interesting to analyze than TDKR-even if TDKR is vastly superior. Btw Grant Morrison made an interesting defense of DK2 on a podcast once, (I think it was fat man on Batman) that made me appreciate it a little more.
Nice use of the word "scabrous"!
Tom have you viewed the live stream, ‘Jack Kirby: A Farewell to the King’ ? Recommended!
Yeah I agree with this analysis.
I’m not a fan of DK2 for the story but I’ve always loved Miller’s artwork
Are these books oversized or standard size?
Noir editions are oversized.
It's like Golden Age comics.
I'm in the minority in preferring ALL of Miller's mature self-drawn works over his works where he was only the writer. His artwork is fearless and inimitable and fits his writing voice perfectly.
Tier 1 works: The Daredevil run, Ronin, Dark Knight Returns 1 & 2, Elektra Lives Again, Sin City, Holy Terror [the story is controversial, but the artwork is a tour de force], 300, Xerxes...
Tier 2 works: Batman Year One, Elektra Assassin, Daredevil Born Again, Martha Washington, Hard Boiled, All Star Batman & Robin, Superman Year One etc.
Interesting
I like DK2
It’s really another book in bw
Wow, I much prefer this mess of a series in B&W. Who knew?
Excellent video topic and great comparisons. I'm a big fan of Frank Millers work and style, but when DK2 came out, it stopped me cold.
It was 2 different. The coloring was 2 garrish. The character designs were 2 simplified and almost like characatures.
It didn't feel like a completed project. It felt like an early draft.
Or it felt like the artist had a stroke.
As worst, it felt phoned in.
I don't think the colors matter. As much as I loved Dark Knight Returns, I liked nothing about this series. I don't know what Miller was thinking.
Dark Knight Strikes Again is a brilliant book. Stands up to re-reading better than Dark Knight Returns
I can’t tell if this is a joke, or a true statement.
No, but it reads better if you take the words away!
Okay, seriously, I reread it recently and it's still a mess, but there are good things in it I had forgotten I saw there first, like Wonder Woman acting like someone from an Ancient culture, or the Question written as Ditko's version with no apologies.
The writing was awful on DK2, much too anti-heroic. Lots of comics try to "innovate" by turning their backs on the concept of the hero. Grisly color, naked Justice Leaguers, and hot chicks talking politics COULD work if the heroism works. I was disappointed.
Not a fan of Miller's art-work,at all. DkRs art was-OKAY-for me,but,the whole concept of a retired Batman,female Robin,etc,etc,..is what intrigued me. DK2's art-work was hot-GARBAGE-was surprised Miller's art actually got worse than Returns art-work. I don't know if it's because Miller has gotten older or not,but,his work has taken a major nose dive.
I love you Tom, but this is cope. Frank is drawing like he has a marker in his fist; it's sloppy, it's crude, it's ugly. This was done, largely, on purpose; he was high on a lot of the work he was seeing at SPX and wanted some of that kinda punk aesthetic in the book. Varley is matching that aesthetic of crude, primitive, sloppy and ugly. The whole thing feels like a punch in the mouth.
Also, we can't discount the unknowable situations behind the scenes. It's a possibility that Frank was already well in the bottle *before* 9/11. It may have been a direct dictate that the coloring look as garish as it does. I mean, this period is not something Frank discusses, so we'll never know, but laying the bulk of the blame on Varley seems like a bad take, imo.
He may this, he may that...therefore, Lynn Varley is blameless about her work on this book.
The story is what ruins it
Terrible Artwork, terrible story. DK2 is easily Miller's weakest work imo.
The colors are terrible, the story is bad and the art doesn't help at all.