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Can Liberal SDA's Find Common Ground with an Extreme Conservative?
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- Опубликовано: 19 авг 2024
- Polarized is a new series that explores the divide. Our goal is to see if we can find common ground despite our differences, both on the “right” and “left”.
In episode one, we sit down with Gerry Wagoner, founder of the highly-controversial Adventist news site-Fulcrum7.
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Have a question you want us to discuss? Comment? Maybe you disagree with something we said? Either way, we'd love to hear from you! Shoot us a DM on Instagram or an email at: seekingwhattheysought@gmail.com
I really enjoyed this podcast and believe that more conversation like this is vital for our witness as a church.
Today in society with an increasingly polarised climate where most people just hang with their people and live in an echo chamber - as a church we need to
Demonstrate that we can ‘agree to disagree’ and still have fellowship together.
Thanks to the hosts for the excellent questions and thanks to Gerry for being willing to go on and share openly and thoughtfully his perspective.
As a church we need more conversation
Appreciate your thoughts Adam, thanks so much for listening!
Since looking at Fulcrum 7 I've been in deep prayer for God's people. I've lived my faith in both environments, conservative and liberal. My parents were missionaries and my husband was a minister/dentist (we r retired). I dislike turmoil. But I really dislike complaining and whimpering (remember what God did to the children of Israel in the wilderness?) May I suggest that as church leaders we focus on Jesus and sharing the gospel. We, personally, have endured thru the tempest/sin of secularism in church admin. and observed unchristian behavior on all participants, including ourselves. 🙏We need to focus on sharing the gospel. Love involves communication, especially to listen when our selfishness (reaction to hurts) blurs God's image. 🙏Friends, Jesus is coming soon! I think this channel is needed especially for young people at this time. They see adult "Christians" reflect the world and they r deciding what is truth. This forum is productive for our Youth at this time. Keep on listening to each other but most of all repent personal sins that hinder the work of the Holy Spirit. Pray. Pray. Pray. Let's keep our eyes on Jesus.
A fundamental issue is that each "side" sincerely believe their understanding is correct. However, our minds are so finite compared with God's infinite mind. There needs to be an environment where we can all sit together, study and pray through issues without building a wall between us. We are all fallible and need to agree on the things we can agree.
I, too, think there is restlessness. It's been apparent since 1888. Conservative or liberal can have a self/fear motivated drive if the character and law of God is not understood. The romanised view of the Father and His law is what creates the darkness and causes misapprehension about God. God is love, His law is love, and love requires freedom. God seeks the response of love. I love the Lord for His brave subsitionary sacrifice. I hate and am saddened that so many have accepted the penal view of it. Brother, the church was changed. It happened in 1888, and then they shipped E. White off to Australia. Thankfully from my perspective, because that's the place that she wrote my favourite books. Read what she has to say to the conservative administrators of that time.
Perfectly said…the whole crux of the problem.
Hmm, very well said. I'm glad you're seeing it from a design law perspective.
All roads lead to Adventism. Gerry is a core Adventist, and is at least honest with what the organization believes as a whole. Everyone else may have a different flavor, or play “Adventist à la cart.” This breeds confusion and part of the reason that up to 45% of those baptized into the world church leave. Their names may not always, but that’s a different topic. 😉
People get brought in to the church with seminars and publications that teach what Gerry holds true, directly or indirectly, then move to an “SDA Mecca”church and wonder why everyone is a heretic.
Case in point, get 10 Adventists from different churches/age groups and ask them who God is, and what the Gospel is. You will get 10 different answers, but they will know about the end times! Get 10 different people who regularly attend various Protestant churches and you will get pretty much the same answer on those two main topics. The issue is, the Adventist church majors in the minors and claim to have all the answers about all things (through EGW), which no other orthodox religion does.
Adventism has added and subtracted things from God and the Gospel for so long that its members don’t even know what’s true anymore more. When a group or person comes along that’s on the right track on those things, but differ from the SOP, then they get trashed and eventually run out of the church and called a heretic crazy person.
Whether you are liberal or conservative, the organization doesn’t care. As long as you are going to church on Saturday, putting money in the offering plate, and receiving a message that is approved, you are good to go. Doug Batchelder and Ty Gibson have the same over arching message at the core, it’s just tweaked for different audiences. The GC does have a line that can’t be crossed, however. You can see that with the likes of Love Reality and the “Theological Stewardship” document that has recently come to light.
The Disciples & Apostles and many martyrs and saints who came after them gave their lives defending their faith. I've never heard of an Adventist Martyr (losing physical life). There have definitely been "Martyrs,' unfortunately, Spiritually, and Emotionally/Psychologically.
I experience Gerry as *seething*. He puts off a strong angry “colonizer” vibe, which speaks volumes about the fading power of people in his demographic.
Lol wut 😂😂
Ellen White says the Church will split in the last days.
“You can succeed, but it depends on you, on your passion, your motivation, and your work ethic. The limiting factor is you, not some racist system that no longer exists, and hasn’t for a long time. That is reality, and that is the empowering message we should be sending to black young people, not this garbage about George Floyd and supposed police brutality.”
Does this sound like the Gospel?
This was published in Fulcrum 7, a Christian website.
“34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
John 13:34-35
How are we doing folks?
yeesh... so much to say, but Im just going to say: The fact you guys were able to get 2 hours... Man... I applaud you guys. (I wont explain why )
17:39 so powerful from Gerry!
I have not watched the other videos in the series “Polarized”. Hence, the scope of discussion may of intentional been limited
The SDA church in NA is polarized from multiple angles. During the discussion there were only allusions to any one of the divisions that exist today.
Political division, doctrinal division, gospel message division, church governance division, and single issue divisions (WO, abortion, music style, dress, worship styles, organizational divisions).
The discussion was not what I had hoped. There was no analysis on the root causes for the division. What divisions are healthy and what is unhealthy. But would have primarily interested in gaining a better understanding of the root primary causes of the disunity in SDA NA church membership.
The Fulcrum7 was brave to go into a three against one format. And he appears overly thoughtful. It was difficult to understand if this was due to personality, defensiveness, or even at times disinterest.
He was speaking often at the big picture level. It was so high level it was difficult to apply.
The interviewers also didn’t help to clarify any of the drivers of division in the church. Their approach was building relationships with different lifestyles that assumed meant change the policy on who could serve as elder, pastor, conference leadership roles etc…. the woke messaging framed as building relationships.
What was disappointing is you had the various individuals from the different perspectives of the divide but the discussion produced no additional clarity on the why.
Excellent comments. I wholeheartedly agree with your critique but I would add that the major problem with Fulcrum7 is that they reduce or define all our Seventh-day Adventist internecine conflict as partisan political. No matter what the problem is, they argue that the source of the problem is liberal Democrats.
You may agree or disagree with a theological position -- such as women's ordination as Pastors and Elders or LGBTQ issues -- but the resolution or even conversation about these issues for the Seventh-day Adventist Church must be a "Thus saith the LORD." The problem with Fulcrum7 is that it seeks to argue their position on a cultural/historical basis. I personally am a very theologically "conservative" believer, the problem with Fulcrum7 is that they believe political, economic, religious, cultural, doctrinal, governance, and theological conservatism are and must be the same thing.
@@williamthomas1811
Good points.
"Religion," in general is participating in an experience of being a part of something bigger than oneself ~~~
Is there a space for moving forward? ❤
Gerry Wagoner doesn’t get to talk much. The person questioning is doing most of the talking.
In reality, there is NO LIBERAL or other Adventist.
These ads are ridiculous. Way to many.
One of the participants keeps using the word "Progressivism" as a way to describe the movement away from clear Bible truth. This label (progressivism) is misleading because it implies that moving away from the clear teaching of the Scriptures is going in the direction of something even better than what we have now.
Gerry comes across to me, as arrogant, but speaks with a humble tone. I may be wrong, but something about him is very off-putting and almost creepy. He does come aross as passive-agressive. Many questions weren't really answered, but deflective with "humble" talk. He never addressed the issue of EGW and women pastors. More deflection on his part.
Addressing your comment about Gerry...he may come across with some different mannerisms...but I can assure you of his humility.
I personally know him and have known him for almost 20 years.
He did premarital counseling with my wife and I and it was such a blessing.
We have spent time in their home and he and his wife have spent time in our home...
So I think you are incorrect in your assessment of him based upon this 2 hour video.
He is not only humble but is gentle and has a kind heart.
So take this from someone who has firsthand knoweldge of the kind of person he is.
@@bobhenricksen248 Thank you for your response. It's good to hear first hand experience.
Yep and regardless of how he projects here the content of his website is often hateful and passive aggressive. I'm not buying the "nice guy" portrayed here when his work online points to something very different
While i dont always personally agree with everything on Fulcrum 7...when it comes to Gerry as a peson and his character...what you see is what you get...I have personally know him for close to 20 years and how he came across in the interview is how he has always been since I have known him.
I know him, his wife and adult kids well enuf ti know that he is not putting on a nice guy show here and then a different person another time.
Hello - I am not finding a RUclips Channel for Fulcrum 7 - Do you have one, or plan to start one, please?
Fulcrum7 is a website, not a RUclips Channel.
Garry Wagoner is self-deluded. Theologically, I am at least as conservative as him; having been called a Last Generation Theology (LGT) adherent, although I personally prefer the term "historic" Adventist. The problem with Fulcrum7 is not its theology: although you may even strongly disagree with their collective theological understanding. The problem with Fulcrum7 is that, in spite of Garry Wagoner's false protests to the contrary, the website is explicitly political. For example, they delude themselves into thinking that Ivermectin is a cure for Covid and that Donald Trump is the greatest President of our time. Those are just a couple of 'political' positions that I have personally read and promoted in articles -- not just user comments but articles -- on Fulcrum7.
The problem is not simply that I strongly disagree with them -- although, make no mistake, I do strongly disagree with them -- the problem is that they delude themselves into believing that their positions are not political. Fulcrum7 is a very political, even as in Republicans vs. Democrats, website. To deny that is to lie and deny reality.
What about Ellen G. White? She held a ministerial license? She was a preacher and a teacher so why take a stance against woman's ordination or whether we have it totally right when it comes the denomination's stance on LGBTQ issues? It could be argued she was a feminist. I believe she wrote that there is more enlightenment to come so I don't take that to mean a liberalism indicative of a pagan cultural influence or a watering down of values. A case in point is that once slavery was accepted in Biblical times-and a lot of the old Levitical law we don't adhere to but some conservative folk like to use scriptural texts of Biblical times and select them as a weaponization against others who may have discovered a truth that sets them free and more loving.
By conservative you mean those who follow the word of God? How can light walk with dark? How can you not follow ALL of God's word and say that you know God?
I don't think that's what they're saying. Both progressive and conservative could say they want to follow the word of God, but it's the practical approach that they agree on. It's almost like writing left handed vs right handed.
@@robking12697 If the result of whatever you do is not in alignment with the word of God it will be an issue when the judgement takes place. So to have two labels to achieve the same result is not necessary.
"Head Janitor" is a good title, Fulcrum7 is a gutter of an echo chamber.
this was so hard to listen to 😅🙃
💛
This is a conversation taking place primarily without scripture, but rather a debate between cultural views.
Might have been for the best, might. Both sides could use Scripture to back up their points cancelling each other out leading to a stalemate
Actually, that's the problem with Fulcrum7.
@@williamthomas1811in what way?
@@PastorShayne Despite its claims, Fulcrum7 is primarily a site about cultural and political conservatism, not religious conservatism. The real problem is that they conflate the two.
For example, they were pushing Ivermectin as a Covid vaccine or cure. That was not a religious or even medical stance, it was a political one. It would have been one thing if they argued to not get vaccinated but just follow the Eight Natural Laws, but there were articles and posts supporting the use of Ivermectin to combat Covid. Again, right or wrong (and personally, I do think it was wrong), the idea for using Ivermectin to combat Covid was not based on Scripture.
@@PastorShayne
I have read Fulcrum7 for years. They are not focused on being a theological based website attempting to do biblical in-depth studies.
They seem to be more focused on the Adventists organization - including governance, cultural, and the politics of the church.
This does not mean they don’t run articles on theology- it just isn’t their primary focus. But they seem to be firmly in the historical Adventist theological position (Bohr, etc).
What they seem to focus on is how the worldly philosophy is making in roads into the church. They write more from a political standpoint than directly Biblical. For example, they seek to educate what Critical Theory is founded on and how that does not align with Christianity.
That is my impression of them. I don’t believe it is a criticism of them, rather it acknowledges a different approach they chose to take.
Trouble in paradise? I thought it only last days remnant church was free of strife and division. Babylon means confusion. The devilish cultists are conflicted. Happy probation day.