This channel is super underrated, great content man, subbed. After watching most your vids, it would be cool if you made a tier list for all the classes you did episodes on and possibly future ones too. Would be hype, but keep up the good work 👍
Thanks friend! I've been thinking about that, actually. At the very least, I'll probably need to start separating my "Master Sustained Damage" builds since that makes up the bulk of the episodes so far, and it's a little tougher to compare 10-12 builds on a graph than 5-6. I'm running out of colors! :)
The first character that I've made on dnd was a bladesinger and I've played it with the same logic, it was a pain in ass for the dm (I even inspired him to make an enemy npc like the bladesinger), it's extremely fun. I wasn't planing on playing anything else other than a wizard, but since my first game I play only bladesingers! LOL! P.S. Get an Amulet of Health!
I stumbled across Bladesinger when I rolled up a Wood Elf Wizard that used a Shortsword instead of Staff. My DM suggested Bladesinger and I really enjoy it. I’m Level 4 right now and using Shadowblade/Short Sword. Thanks for the guide; it reinforces the choices I’ve already made and shapes what to take at higher levels. I enjoyed your conversational style and have Subscribed.
Thanks! Still my favorite :). The only thing that makes me a little sad about the sub class is that, as you get higher level, it starts to feel a little less unique and a little more like other Wizards - the reality is, those high level spells are so strong, it's hard to justify not using them and just sticking with your Shadowblade/melee focus. Of course, using Animate Objects as a bonus action and still being in the mix hitting stuff with a rapier with a super high AC is still fun and devastating, and being able to take better advantage of things like Tenser's Transformation than other Wizards is also pretty cool :).
Currently playing a bladesinger, and I have to say it's pretty amazing! We rolled for stats and I was lucky enough to be able to take 2 lvls of paladin on my bladesinger build. Using shadow blade and smites with the versatility of the wizard spell list has made for a very enjoyable experience.
Oh wow. A legit Jedi. And those numbers are nuts! Keep up the good work! I am enjoying these. Would love to see your number crunching on the coffee-lock meme.
Thanks! You know, I almost got into the coffee-lock in my last episode, because it's doable with the Eldritch Sorcerer, but it gets so much hate from the community that I decided not to stir the pot :P. Maybe I should revisit...
Most Wizards become fun at level 5, Bladesingers are fun from level 2. if your campaign is likely to end at around level 12 play a bladesinger if it's going to 20 play any other subclass except necromancer obviously. That said, 17 levels of Bladesinger and 3 levels of Rogue is one of my favourite builds.
Loving your channel! 3 levels of Assassin or Arcane trickster works well with Bladesinger, and flaming sphere combos nicely with booming blade; damage if they move, damage if they don't. I know it treads on the toes of shadow blade but it works.
Yeah, there really are some great multi-class options for my beloved Bladesinger - Fighter is an easy one, giving action surge and duelist feat for an easy two levels, or darkness/devil's sight warlock for permanent advantage ... every time I consider multi-classing though I always just look at those higher level spells and... just can't make myself do it :).
Great advice from Homelander, I love it 🥰 I'm a bit proud I already hit the big points into playing a Bladesinger, but regrettably except taking Shadow Blade 😢 Definitely taking that now
Spells like Protection from Evil/Good and Warding Wind are great defensive options to make you even harder to hit, but they eat up your concentration. Elemental Bane is a good higher end pickup if you have an elemental weapon, and Greater Invisibility gives you advantage on all your attacks on anything without True Seeing.
I've been playing a bladesinger and it's been by far my favorite character I've played. Ended up rolling insane stats for him and with the Tough and Mobile feats he's hard as hell to hit and can take a few hits to boot. He's a Valenar wood elf so he has a 45ft base speed with Mobile, 55 when he's singing
Been watching this again trying to make a themed build and I had this idea: 3-4 levels of Fighter(Champion). Would that improve the build or take away from it? I'm thinking 9th to 11/12th level.
Every time I think about or play this build I'm tempted to take Fighter levels. You get so much for not a big investment, but I never end up doing it because delaying all those great things like extra attack and higher level spells really really hurts. If I were to do it, I'd probably only go 1 level. If I went as high as 3, I'd personally go Rune Master, though Champion isn't a bad idea since you'll often have triple advantage and with a crit on a 19 or 20 you'll be critting a lot.
My bladesinger (int 20) is using defensive duelist (using only one weapon instead of two), which gives me a reaction that enhances my AC by 6. This saves me from using the shield spell. I have offset the lack of attacks by taking 2 levels of fighter (for action surge). He wears simple studded leather, has armored fighting style. During bladesong, with defensive duelist, I have an AC of 27 against melee attacks. Probably the best tank I have ever played.
Defensive duelist is a trap. Ac increase of proficiency bonus, for that one attack only. A creature with multi attack then can hit you easier after that first attack. Shield is infinitely better, and it doesn't take up a feat to use. Do what you like, but it certainly isn't optimized.
@@Jk-zv6tz Here's my problem with the Shield spell: you only have a finite number of spell slots, while the Feat can be used every single time I have a free reaction, an infinite number of times per day. No rest required. That said, there is something to your comment. That's why 5E is such a good system for me: we all have our own preferred combat actions and the game allows you to adapt it as desired.
@@edh9999 I've never really had a problem with running out of shield with a BS. Naturally high ac means you only have to use shield very rarely. Add arcane recovery into the mix along with most dms don't do the 4-8 combat encounters per day the books suggest... Just really isn't a problem. If most of your campaign is back to back combat without rest, I see a place for DS. How most games a run, it's a wasted ASI/feat that would work better. Mobile, better than defensive duelist. "Best block Daniel son, No be there" -Mr Miyagi. Being able to dart in and out of combat is better than using DS for one attack only, which also eats up your reaction. No more counterspell for you, but at least you blocked 1 single attack lol. If it was a free feat, then sure, it can be useful IF you've somehow run out of 1st spell slots. But eating up a feat or asi for it? Absolutely horrible if optimizing.
just done some maths... its insanity... it consistantly outdamages powerbuilt hexblade warlocks at lv 9 and 13 by 10dpr, and hexblades take at least 1 action to set up
@@krunchyfrogg I think going forward almost all builds will be strongest with the "custom lineage" option, unless you have little use for a free feat, which is hard to imagine :). The nice thing about it is you can be a Tortle under that option if you want, at least for role play and aesthetic purposes (you just wouldn't get the things like a starting 17 AC if you did).
I noticed when you mentioned the Familiar you left out that you can also have them cast spells with a range of touch. I've used my owl to cast Dragon's Breath on a crowd of enemies and invisibility to my companions. Wizard is my favorite class for their versatility; playing one currently.
If your DM is permissive, you can talk him into casting glyph of warding in the bag of holdings with glyphs of haste and shadow blade and anything else your hear desires. The downside is that it is costly at 300 GP per glyph
For a level 7 spell, there's Crown of Stars which can give you something to do with your bonus action. If all you are doing is an offhand attack with a regular weapon anyway, this gives you 7 rounds of ranged attacks at 4d12 radiant damage instead. Something to think about. BTW I really like your channel, optimization is one of my favourite things to do in D&D, so I can come here and get a educated second opinion on builds I've been thinking about as well.
Thank you! I love the Crown of Stars idea as well. Admittedly, when number-crunching I'm upcasting Shadow blade to 7th level (where it caps), but once you also have an 8th level slot, this would obviously be a big bump to sustained damage. Really though, at that point, you're probably *not* going to be using a 7th level+spell slot to upcast Shadow Blade, as there are just so many powerful options, but for the sake of the spread sheets, I might need to add Crown in to a level 17 damage report :).
With Tasha's book out, I'm about to start playing a campaign as a Drow Bladesinger Priestess of Eilistraee. DM approves and I accept the roleplay difficulty, but this will be fun!
My focus on spells will be a few defensive spells - Absorb Elements, Shield, Mirror Image - Shadow Blade, and the rest will be utility spells for outside of combat. Brings a TON to the table instead of being just another boom-caster
I agree with almost everything, very nice guide. I would just to point out that haste has much more value than you said +2 to AC, dex save advantage doubling your movement and than giving you an extra action with limitations but you can still use the dodge action, disengage and so on and last but not least you can up cast it to affect more party members soooo much more value than shadow blade at least in my opinion, and you're right only if you consider only your personal dmg as a melee char but an extra hit from your barbarian/rogue/paladin/fighter should balance the scales.Goblins are awesome bladesinger if they are allowed, and i'm uncertain if you can dual wield while bladesinging maybe i'm wrong but i kinda remember that you need to have an hand free to bladesong
Haste definitely has a lot of advantages, though if you’re using it just for your own concentration, your damage will be less. Also, it has a big down side: if you lose concentration, you lose an entire turn! As for up-casting, If you’re up casting it to affect more players then you must be playing with home brew rules or playing a sorc with twin spell meta magic 😉
@@DnDDeepDive Ah silly me i was certain that you could up cast haste to add other targets, so i think that haste vs shadow blade showdown changes a bit now shadow blade is fantastic for raw damage but on the right build i still think that haste performs better if used for example on a bladesinger with mobility feat or a goblin with disengage as bonus action so you can dart in and out of melee range with an high level monk like speed without getting any AoO. Sure you lose some damage (kinda more than some) but you can gain a butt load of defence capabilities and we both know that dead/fainted wizards do no damage, so for me it stays as a toss up between the two spells and so the combination of foes and/or battlefield and party status would change which one is the most useful for the fight. Thank you for fact checking me on haste i can't believe i was so wrong about it. May you clarify me a thing? The bladesong feature says that you can't attack with both hands does it refers only for 2h weapons or it applies to dual wielding too? Just because i discarded the dual wielding possibility on my bladesinger because of that
@@Shamalaya311 No worries! My understanding is that you just can't attack using two hands for a single weapon - so even, say, if you tried to go two hands on a versatile weapon, like longsword, you'd lose the benefit, as it says "if you use two hands to make an attack with *a* weapon" (as opposed to, say, "use both hands to make weapon attacks" or something). That said, the damage you get from your "off-hand" is very slight, especially since you're so often using your bonus action for other things. Yes, haste has a lot of great strengths, no doubt. That said, in practice, I find my Bladesinger so tanky, between the shield spell, absorb elements, mirror image, and a great chance to make my dex saves and concentration saves, that I prefer to just stand in the fight and go toe to toe with the baddies, but I've always preferred the high-risk high-reward playstyle :).
Thoughts on starting as a level 1 fighter for concentration saving throws? Do it, don't do it? Going to start Icewind Dale this Saturday, and it has players go from level 1-12. I rolled super good, 17, 17, 16, 13, 12, 9. So with eladrin elf, dex is 19, int is 18, will take warcaster and then elven accuracy dex 20. So I won't really need the extra ASI at 12th level. Thanks, loved the video, super helpful!
Glad you liked it! This is such a tough call - I often waiver back and forth between multiclassing Fighter or not. On the one hand, proficiency in Con and extra HP plus a fighting style (probably Duelist) is really great. On the other, delaying your Shadowblade, your higher level spells, and maybe most painfully, your extra attack (which you already have to wait until 6 for... so now it's 7) is *so* painful. Also, if you're going 1 level in fighter, it so tempting to go 2, because Action Surge is really strong, and if you're going 2, might as well go 3, because picking up an archetype is great, and if 3, then just one more level for an ASI... lol. I tend to just go straight Bladesinger when I do, but maybe just one level in Fighter is totally viable. I'd be even more tempted to do it if I started the campaign at, say, level 7 :).
@@DnDDeepDivethanks for your input! lol yeah that action surge is so tempting, but I agree delaying spell progression and extra attack is brutal. I guess in your experience, how often do you feel you lose concentration? Because not only would the con save with warcaster be nice, but I was thinking the extra +1AC from defensive fighting style might help avoid getting hit in the first place. I'd probably take extra levels of fighter only after getting to bladesinger's extra attack, and maybe even after elven accuracy. Thanks again!
diaster blade from rime of the frost maiden is the best 9lvl spell for this build bonus action to cast, crits on 18 and up, doe 4d12 force dmg standard, does 12d12 force dmg on a crit, bonus action move the spell and make two attacks.
@@DnDDeepDive Can you please help settle this as it is an issue that is starting to ruin both the game experience and friendships. The older players of the group are arguing against the newer players in the group about the rogue sneak attack. The older players say "When using Sneak attack you only use sneak attack dice and ntn else." Example level 5 rogue hits with bow and wants to use sneak attack so they only deal 3d6 damage. The newer players say "when using Sneak attack you add the sneak attack dice on top of the damage your attack already does." Example level 5 rogue hits with bow and wants to use sneak attack so they would deal the bow damage + 3d6
Hey, I loved your video, and I was hoping to make a request. Could you make a follow up video for this build that includes the revisions of Bladesinger, Shadowblade, and the SCAG cantrips seen in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything?
Absolutely planning on it - stay tuned for Tasha's episode 1 this week, then the week after I'm planning on releasing my Bladesinger 2.0 :). Glad you're enjoying it!
Sorry a little late to the party, how are you dual wielding with a rapier and shortsword without dual wielded feat? Rapier isn’t light so can’t be used to dual wield without the feat. Shadow blade however is light so can be used with a shortsword so long as you have proficiency for it.
Yep that was my mistake :). I think someone corrected me earlier on - admittedly, your BA later is so often used between Shadowblade, Bladesong, Misty Step, Animate objects, etc, that I find I rarely even get an off-hand attack anyway, but still important to know, esp early.
You can use Shadowblade and Booming Blade following this steps 1) Have Two-Weapon Fightingstyle and Dual Wielder feat, and use your weapon of choice and Shadowblade when dual wielding. First attack: Shadowblade Second attack: Weapon of choice + Booming Blade Offhand attack: Shadowblade When taking the attack action and having extra attack, you can use whatever the hand you want to attack, but to make this you would have to spend 2 ASI into Dual Wielder + Two-Weapon Fighting. Maybe it would be worth it to take that 1 fighter level to get the fightingstyle.
Confused by what exactly you mean about absorb elements.. are you referring to up casting it for the extra damage? Because regardless of the level of spell triggering it, you’re still reducing it by half; which is why you cast it... the bonus damage is just icing. And if you’ve already burned all your 1st levels on shields/whatnot, you’re still getting increased benefit.
I’m trying to piece through a system for more complete comparisons. Rather than damage per swing or damage per swing times swings per round I feel like there should be set encounters for the day at a given level. * pair of creatures for 5 battles per day. One with high AC and one with low AC. Ideally one with medium to high saving throws and one with low to medium saving throws. (I don’t know what the XP/CR value of these should be per level tier) * group of 5 creatures for 2 battles per day. (This gives an opportunity for AOE focused builds to shine) (some assumptions need to be made for how far apart creatures are in each type of fight. Sometimes things with be adjacent, but that isn’t all the time in every fight) * 7 total battles per day as per the DMG. People can house rule any way they like but the basic comparison might as well show intended balance. * assumed 4 player party (tricks like darkness and devil’s sight are supremely selfish and not conducive to being in a party because the selfishness robs the other players of the ability to contribute) * assume a primary tank who takes 50% of attacks. A secondary tank who takes 25% of attacks and two squishies who take 12.5% of attacks. Melee type characters would always be tank or secondary tank. (I think this needs more thought) * assume reaction attack once per 10 rounds. (Unsure of this. There should be some value to reaction based builds while keeping in mind how rare they typically are …. I can go months of D&D sessions without seeing a single one). * general goal is to find out how many rounds it takes to kill everything or how many rounds before the build dies. There needs to be a version to track DPS, damage mitigation, healing output, and support based options (reduced enemy damage from paralysis or whatever) (I think this needs a lot of work) * assumptions need to be made on anything that only has a chance to trigger. Statistically you know how often a build will crit or kill a thing for great weapon master. That’s easy. Polearm master is harder. With only one reaction and multiple targets some percentage of the time you’ll get to use a reaction on both. Other times they will both trigger the same round and you can only do it once. This includes things like elven accuracy and things that trigger from advantage. I feel like a thing like sneak attack can be relied on 80-90% of the time, and the occasions where the rogue doesn’t get it need to be accounted for … because that happens in games. I don’t know what the key levels are but I think doing that for every level is a bad idea. 3, 5, 8, 10, 12 That’s what I’m leaning towards. Personally, I have no value for what happens at higher levels because I’ve been playing since the 90’s and games just never seem to run that long.
@@ashdaniels2332 Sorry, Booming blade now requires a weapon worth at least 1 sp. The blade in shadow blade does not have a value so it cant be used as the weapon in the spell. It would be up to your DM to say you could use it for booming blade/green flame blade.
Ash your fun bubble may be restored. Jeremy Crawford’s tweet about the issue seems to indicate that the change to a weapon worth 1 sp was to prevent the material component from be substituted with an arcane focus. It is now a debate between RAI and RAW.
That's why I never dump Wis and rarely play characters who aren't proficient in the save. Incidentally Rogue get it at level 15, Monks at 14, Samurai and Gloomstalker at 7.
I've done a build very similar to this(it's not restricted to Elves in my DMs setting, so Variant Human with 1 level dip of fighter at the beginning) and it is the most fun character I've played in combat. It's not even close with any other character that's not some off the wall monstrosity I created.
Been playing a bladesinger, 1-8. Its freaking awesome. Absolutely my favorite chatacter to date, and my personal favorite wizard. I also played a necromancer 1-10. Which is also great because wizard.
post-tasha, I really like the tortle for this. You can choose whether to use dex or str to attack (or add 3 levels of battle smith artificer and completely run off INT). Or choose goblin, which is almost like multiclassing rogue because you can bonus action disengage. It's kinda crazy, the best subclass in 5e just got better.
Interesting take, I went with 4 lvls warlock, 4 assassin, 12 blade singer. I play dual wield , focus on darkness as I got devil sight and shadow armor. Most of my spells focus on teleporting around battle field via misty step, dimension door, steel wind strike, far step etc etc I got mage slayer feat so my go to is counter to other spell casters. Love darkness and shadow of moil always have advantage.
Might be worth thinking about a Shadow Blade build for Sorcs. The two key ideas are twin spell and quicken spell, use them with Booming Blade to double your attacks for your action and attack again with Booming Shadow Blade as a bonus action. This not only gets you additional attacks, but adds quite a bit of scaling damage as well. I realize Sorc points kind of mess with sustained damage, but if you liquidate your spell slots (above lvl 1 - keep those for shield) into points, you can keep it up for quite a while. Possibly worth taking one level in CFV Ranger to start. You get 10 starting HP, a D10+1 Temp HP, a shield for your off hand, and non-concentration Hunters Mark. I realize this gives up the advantage owl, but Sorc subclass features like Shadow Sorc or Wild Magic could get non-dim-light advantage back.
I really like this idea - I do have some reservations about sustainability like you mentioned, and the lack of AC bump and concentration bump Bladesinger gets is *somewhat* mitigated by a shield... definitely has potential for burstier damage, if it's not *totally* sustainable.
I have loved bladesinger since 2e and 5e is the best version. I would note that at levels 2-5 you get more out of Flaming Sphere. About 25% more damage on a single target. More of you can position it next to more than one target. It also sets up a wonderful lose-lose situation for the target. Stand still and eat more damage from the Flaming Sphere or move and trigger the extra damage from Booming Blade and potentially opportunity attacks.
In Our Game, I Play A Half-Elf BS, Our DM Allows The +2/+1/+1 To Be Put On Any 3 Stats Of Our Choice, I Put The +2 On DEX, +1 On INT & +1 On CON... Makes For A Great Character Build... & I Like Magic Missiles Instead Of Find Familiar...
Another fun build you might wanna look at is kobald battle smith artificer. Now I'm doing a multiclass but honestly the 3 lvl of fighter I plan to take at lvl 12-14 is just for char concept but there some good benefits. I took medium armor master at lvl 4 and will be taking mounted combatant at lvl 8. At lvl 7 I have a 23 ac and cast blur at round 1. Blur is huge till lvl 11. Once I get my spell storing item at 11 tactics change to having my defender cast warding bond on me. At that point my concentration spell will be haste. So basically I'll have an ac of 28 (25 without any spell due to infusions. Add 1 from warding bond and 2 from haste.) Plus you now have resistances to all damage and double your hitpoints due to sharing your mount hitpoints from warding bond(which never gets hit due to mounted feat). So at lvl 11 you got 3 attacks. Very high ac. Now I want to get calvalier subclass so that I can give even more disadvantages to enemies besides just my defender. That's the jest of it. If you want more info let me know
@@DnDDeepDive it is. now technically optimized would be gnome instead of kobald and probably dont need to take medium armor master but I love the permanent advantage when not in direct sunlight.
Ha ha - I don't think of it as game breaking... more like... challenging your DM :P. And I'm sure there's better stuff out there... I'm actually anxious myself to see how the GWM Fighter/Barbarian deep dive I do for the next episode stacks up here... I have a feeling it will largely surpass the damage at low AC but not sure beyond that...
the haste argument is purely on the other things it provides. 2 AC, double movement, ADV on DEX saves. the extra attack is a nice additive but the ability to disengage with that movement is nice as well especially in situations where you cant misty step.
1 extra attack that your bladesinger deals might pale compare to shadow blade. But how about allowing the rogue to do a second sneak attack? would his sneak attack pale compare to yours? what about if he's a arcane tricker with shadow blade+booming blade+sneak attack, do his second sneak attack pale compare to yours? What if you use haste to buff teh nova bursting paladin? or the raging barbarian using a powerful magical weapon? And haste is not only 1 extra weapon swing, it's also double your speed, you you might reach your target without requiring the dash action. It's also +2AC and advantage on dex saving throws. If that 2AC and advantage allow you to avoid more damage, that mean more round attacking (and less damage = less chance to fail a concentration check, even with war caster do enought and you are bound to fail one eventually. Dismissing Haste is easy on a theorical character like on your show, where the ennemy are nicely lined up waiting for your character to slice them up. My DM like to scatter them (so I cannot ut fireball them all) Then hold person/monster? allowing the entire team to do all critical hit on the target? does your shadow blade does more damage then shadow blade? As for weakness, remember you are still just a d6 HitDice wizard. so if you get hit by a few attack/AoE you can quickly go down. your dex saving thrown isn't that great (+5 if you got a 20 dex) your constitution saving throws isn't that higher neither, so poison cloud spell, cone of cold, fireball work great against you. If you cannot see the target cast the spell (use an item like a staff or a wand, sorcerer with subtle spell, or target siply around the corner so no line of sight etc...) you cannot counterspell it, Remain at range, the Bladedancer abilities are all focused around being in melee, so if the target is at range (or flying) you are force to drop shadow blade to get flying and reach them, or to revert to a normal wizard (still bet class in game) and shoot range spell without any tradition benefit Absorb element only have a limited amont of eleent it can absorb, so you can bring different elements
A comment on Absorb Elements. I think many people misunderstand this spell. The spell gives Resistance (which is 50% damage reduction) regardless of what level it’s cast at. The level cast only affects the reflected damage. So, the spell doesn’t only absorb 1d6, it absorbs 50%, quite good and scales very well for a 1st level spell.
you're absolutely right - I should've given more time to that instead of just focus on shield. I also failed to mention the nice little bump in damage it gives you as well :).
It does not absorb 1d6 damage and confer a 50% damage resistance. You gain 50% damage resistance to the triggering type of elemetal damage, correct. The 1d6 comes in the form of damage added to the next melee strike you make. This 1d6 increases by 1d6 when upcast, but it does not further reduce the damage you take.
@@joshraney5723 Yes. That's what I said. In the video, he mentioned that it only absorbed 1d6 damage. I was correcting him that it is 50% reduction, much better than a flat 1d6, especially at higher levels.
You remind me so much of myself... Just optimize it all. I think you can actually do this in Adventurers League, you must first buy the shadow blade as a scroll and then copy it over... A recommendation for your channel to appeal to more people is to append your guides with a few minutes of adventurers league adaptations!
I like that idea - I've never done an AL game myself, as I have a regular group I enjoy playing with, but I'm sure there would be some strong appeal - thanks for the tip!
@@DnDDeepDive The additional restrictions are sure to push your optimization skills even further. I believe a new season and its associated rule changes are coming out in a week or so. I recommend waiting on this to see what restrictions are imposed for the next season. Good luck with your channel and enjoy getting lost in thought!
Nice video! I have indeed an ideia of a build that peeerhaps could do even more damage? Have you tried to crit-fish (elven accuracy+19-20 crit range) and then double smite your enemies (Eldritch+divine smite). That could be even more bursty with hold person/monster. I was thinking about a champion 4/hexblade 5/paladin 2/shadow sorcerer 9 kind of build, GWM feat and half-drow for extra darkness and faerie fire paired with Devil's sight invocation.
Would be super fun and nice burst - I built this one more with sustained damage in mind - i.e. reliable damage I could count on every round without spending a lot of resources, but double smite would hit *hard* on a crit!
Cool video/build. The only small problem I had with the build was the dual wielding which you addressed mostly in another comment. Something to remember, on top of not being able to dual wield a rapier and short sword together, is that you would only have proficiency with one of the two weapons. So, if you wanted to dual wield you would either have to pick short sword proficiency at level 2 or just pick rapier and forget about dual wielding. You could get around this by being a non Aereni High Elf as then you would have Elven weapon proficiency, or by multi-classing. Two spells I would highly recommend checking out though are the level 5 spell Steel Wind Strike and the level 6 spell Tenser's Transformation. Both are very cool and fit the Bladesinger well. A final thing to consider would be starting out as either a level 1 Fighter, for weapon proficiencies, hp boost, con save, and dueling/dual wielding fighting style, or a level 1 Rogue, this is actually what I did for my character, for a ton of skills, expertise, weapon proficiencies, and an extra 1d6 damage from sneak attack which can be applied to booming blade/green-flame blade or your shadowblade attacks. Anyway, sorry for the long comment. I really enjoyed the video and keep up the good work.
Thanks - all good suggestions! I love what multi-classing brings to the table for bladesingers, I just hate delaying those higher level spells and extra attack :P.
Something for your consideration. If you are really leaning into the melee aspect of this build, with your 7th level spell selections, with one of your choices try picking up.....Simulacrum. By having an extra "you" to control you double up on your ability to concentrate on certain spells. So while you prime can wade into battle with shadow blade, beta you can concentrate on Haste for Prime. This will give you double movement, a +2 bonus to your AC, and a sweet extra attack for your shadow blade. In addition, because of this benefit (Pre Tasha's release and I imagine at least at certain tables) you would be able to cantrip booming blade and still make an attack with shadow blade in the same round of combat. There are a few other minor tweaks here and there that could net you more overall dps with this particular build. I have a similar build to this, but instead of bladesinger I went with Abjuration Wizard. It yields a very hilarious playstyle and an exceedingly tanky wizard.
Yeah I didn’t want to lengthen the episode too much by getting into all the options with higher level spells, but needless to say, there are lots of great ones - your DPR will generally be better with animate objects, tenser’s transformation, and simulacrum, etc. All good suggestions!
great video thanks for sharing, one thing i noticed nobody else metion is the 6th level spell tensers transformation which blew my mind. You endow yourself with endurance and martial prowess fueled by magic. Until the spell ends, you can’t cast spells, and you gain the following benefits: - You gain 50 temporary hit points. If any of these remain when the spell ends, they are lost. - You have advantage on attack rolls that you make with simple and martial weapons. - When you hit a target with a weapon attack, that target takes an extra 2d12 force damage. - You have proficiency with all armor, shields, simple weapons, and martial weapons. - You have proficiency in Strength and Constitution saving throws. - You can attack twice, instead of once, when you take the Attack action on your turn. You ignore this benefit if you already have a feature, like Extra Attack, that gives you extra attacks. Immediately after the spell ends, you must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion.
Tenser's is great, for sure. I plan on doing a 2.0 episode in the next couple of weeks to update this for Tasha's and go more in depth on what you should be doing with your spell slots/concentration after you hit level 7 (hint: it's no longer use Shadow Blade :) ) and Tenser's will for sure be part of the conversation!
I played a bladesinger in a recent campaign and i'm kicking myself for not using shadow blade after seeing the numbers. It gets a bad rap from some people but I enjoyed playing nearly every minute of it. I could switch out to a bow, as an elf, for a stealth mission and thanks to decent dex actually hit with it. I had spells for when I needed to blow stuff up and best of all I had an ac of 20+ most rounds. Stuff like that combined with the fact you are full spellcaster really let's you interect with all aspects of the game not just combat. If you can't find a reason to do something as a blade singer you are playing it wrong. Great videos been on a tear watching them. Keep up the good work. I know you focus on dpr but have you considered doing a series for tanks? I know it's harder to quantify what makes a good tank but I think it would be good for those of us who like to tank up a few enemies while our team mates dish out the damage. My vote would be Bear Totem barb/moon druid with gnome race for the advantage on magic saves.
Glad you're enjoying them! I do have two tank vids so far, one on the Bear Barb and another on the Paladin - check 'em out! And yes, Bladesinger is amazing. Sadly, the reality is that, once you hit level 9, Animate objects becomes a much better use of your concentration for pure DPR, unless you run into something with a very high AC and/or resistance to non-magical damage. I still love Shadow Blade though and use it when I don't have the spell slots for Animate Objects :).
With Tasha's coming out and the class being open to all the races as well as being able to move ability increases what do you think would be the best race now? I was thinking maybe hill dwarf for the extra health? Or would variant human or elf still be the best? Half elf probably gets better as well for being able to move the +2 and increase dex, con and int.
I think it will depend on whether or not free feats are available to all, and if "Elven Accuracy" (or its renamed equivalent) will be... I'm not super clear on either point (mostly because I've held off on reading up on the "leaked" details, preferring to wait for the actual release). Ultimately, Elven Accuracy will probably dictate, since the build is so often getting advantage...
So the math on Haste isn’t that far off of Shadow Blade. Especially if you are in bright light. In bright light haste vs AC 10 is 31.95 vs 32.7 and you get a +2 to your AC. Flaming sphere if you upcast to level 3 is 36 dpr if everything hits vs 36.5 if everything hits with shadow blade. Flaming sphere also pushes the booming blade to trigger. So depending on the situations one route may be better or at least as good as Shadow Blade.
@@frankieyuen9363 yes. Attack action 1 hit with short sword 6.5, booming blade 20 if they move, extra attack from haste 6.5, bonus action attack 3.5. (36.5) Vs shadow blade 2 attacks with shadow blade 16.5 +16.5, bonus action attack 3.5. (36.5). The difference is you get more damage from Crits with the shadow blade. So it has a slight edge. But on a creature with 45 hp it would still take you two rounds to kill it with either set up so the difference of one or two dpr doesn’t really matter a whole lot. Shadow blade wins with damage but haste gives you the +2 to AC so balance that how you will. Haste also comes with the risk of being stunned for one round if you lose haste.
Interesting concept with Flaming Sphere - nice find. I wonder though - the spell description says that anyone *within* 5 feet of it at the end of their turn takes damage. To me that would indicate that, if you ram it into your enemy that's standing next to you as your bonus action, you would then be within 5 feet, meaning you'd need to move back, risking an opportunity attack. I wonder if that's the correct interpretation...
@@DnDDeepDive Hmm, I think the sphere has its own space so it does not share the space with the creature, like a 5 foot beach ball that is on fire. So you stand in front of the creature, the flaming sphere is behind it. So you end up 10 feet away from the sphere. I looked for a sage advice to confirm but couldn't find it so there is some room for interpretation there. I didn't figure out how to combine the damage calculation of DC/save for half with the weapon damage yet. Need to spend some time with excel. Shadow Blade in dim light still comes out ahead but in bright light or cases when the flaming sphere could damage multiple enemies it could be better. That is why I love the bladesinger so much. Great DPR and AC plus the versatility of a wizard.
Unfortunately, unless your DM bends the rules, you cannot use a short sword and rapier for 2 weapon fighting. Both weapons need to have the light property, which is why you see a lot of scimitar or short sword wielders.
I built a War Mage: Mountain Dwarf, Wizard (War Magic). All my spells were pretty much devoted to buffing me. High STR and CON, Medium INT. Low DEX , WIS, and CHA. As Mountain Dwarf I could wear Medium Armor, as well as get the AC bonuses from my School of Magic.
I gotta say, this definitely scratched off what I need. a wizard who can just weave in and out of battle with magic and swords is just fantastic! I definitely will be using this in my next game!
I do love this build! Familiars increase your passive percseptionn by 5 using the help action. Bats have blindsight to protect from invisible foes. My alternate "bladesinger" is a divine sorc lv 3 and lv 17 Warmage. The bonus to saves and quicked/split spells along with spiritual weapon and shadow blade give me amazing dps. And in the long run gfb or bb do greater damage than just shadow blade even with 2 attacks. Also an alpha 3 attacks of shadow blade at lv 3 is crazy... Add illusionist bracers to this build and the sustained damage is ridiculous.
I suppose it depends on whether or not they move (or have an ally within 5 ft. for GFB) after, and what level you're upcasting Shadow Blade at... at 17th level, assuming you're using Shadow Blade as a 7th level spell, you'd get 5d8 for the initial attack, plus 3d8 for the booming blade attack. Obviously you'd be better off with just 2 attacks in that case unless the target moved... I do like the Sorc dip for Spiritual weapon and quickened spell, I just hate delaying the higher level spells and the level 14 Bladesinger bonus, but yeah, Booming blade then Quickened spell Booming blade would be devastating (if not sustainable with 3 levels of Sorc...)
@@DnDDeepDive the illusionist bracers make it sustainable . And lets you have 3 rounds of split spells to boot. We rarely get to lv 15 in our adventures tho. So I kind of build them with that in mind.. Your build definetly feels more fun and powerful. Our campaigns tend to go against a lot of spell casters and the Warmage defense abilities combined with the favored by the gods ability makes it more survivable for me.
@@shirak8 When I played this character I ended up getting a cloak of displacement... between that, mirror image, shield spell, and an innately high AC (plus a cleric that basically always kept divine shield on me), I was almost unhittable :). Sooooo fun!
@@DnDDeepDive UA Metamagic feat is a thing. With a permissive GM a Variant Human Bladesinger (or an Elf if everyone gets a free feat) can get it at level 1 and not sacrifice an ASI slot.
Is it bad that my character who I thought was very well optimised is doing half the damage that bladesinger is doing if my maths is correct? At level 9 my barbarian rogue is making 2 attacks with advantage and 2 sneak attack dice for a dpr of 28 vs an AC of 16.
Hey man - sorry I haven’t responded to the email - I just read it and I like the build. Lots of versatility. That said, yeah, it’s really hard to compete, Damage-wise, with any build that doesn’t use either GWM or sharpshooter. The only reason the Bladesinger can get close is because Shadowblade hits so hard. The greatest weakness for Rogues is that, while sneak attack is good, they only get it on one attack per round, which is why it always feels to be like, if you’re trying to optimize their damage, it should be done in a way to try and get big bursts, usually at the beginning of combat (ideally with surprise). Barb levels give you lots of things like grappling, damage resist, etc, which are great (it’s not *all* about DPR), but without access to *multiple per round* big hitting attacks, they’ll typically fall behind in sustained damage. But if you’re having fun playing the character, then you should absolutely continue doing so! They are viable and have plenty of strengths :).
@@DnDDeepDive thanks for the response. Yes I am having lots of fun and he is partially a tank and a grappler rather then focusing on dpr. Was cool to follow your method for calculating dpr though. His damage should scale pretty well as he gets more sneak attack dice. Looking forward to taking quarter damage against big hits with resistance and uncanny dodge.
@@StarKnightZ You're right of course - the reality is, you are only without shadow blade for such a short time (levels 1 and 2) that I tend to forget that the rapier isn't considered light, only a finesse weapon. So yes, at levels 1 and 2, you'd be dual wielding short swords (or, more likely, casting firebolt from afar just to stay alive). The rapier would come in to play later when you are high enough level to cast animate objects, using that for both your bonus action and concentration, using the rapier for two extra attacks in melee.
First off, love your videos. Second, love the 2.0 video. Third, I have to say that longbow would be better for an eleven blade singer until level five than a firebolt, which gets mentioned a lot.. Only until level five though. I know this is really minor difference, but I love the flavour of being a badass with a bow on top of being a melee fighter. Given that, can you think of any ways to augment bow attacks at range and higher levels before we enter melee range and engage bladesong? The only thing I can think of flame arrow but by then a firebolt is already better and doesn’t waste a spell slot.
Thanks! Yeah, not really outside of taking feats like crossbow expert and sharp shooter, but that's a heavy investment that I'd probably only make if I were planning on staying with ranged throughout the character's career...
@@DnDDeepDive currently my DM is using the dungeon dudes starting stats 17,15,13,12,10,8. I chose a high elf and I put the 15 into Dex (+2), 17 into Int (+1) and Wisdom is my dump stat. I will really on my familiar for perception cheques and hopefully not starve to death in the woods with my pathetic survival roles. I’m eagerly awaiting Elven Accuracy at 4th followed by maxing out Dex and Int at 8th and 12th. I like the idea of sharpshooter. With a longbow and a fly spell you could do a lot of damage from a 400’ above. Also, I greatly appreciate your dedication to replying to all comments. Don’t beat yourself up when you can’t do it anymore, your videos are awesome, you are going to get A LOT more popular before you even know it.
Nah - it didn't depend on twinned spell, obviously, and the Warcaster/Booming Blade loss, which is sad, was never part of my DPR calculations. It was definitely a "nice to have," and I'm a little confused at the nerf, but it's not a huge loss. Opportunity attacks weren't something you were going to get a ton of anyway, and when they come, you can still make them with your Shadow Blade, you just can't use Booming Blade too for extra damage.
@@DnDDeepDive Yeah I was mostly worried about the Booming Blade+Shadow Blade loss. But it sounds like you're saying thats not a big impact to overall DPR. I thought it was still a good chunk of it. Does the updated 6th level bladesinging feature improve DPR in anyway? I don't think it will but maybe I missed something. Yeah I'm very confused why this errata came out now FIVE years after SCAG came out. Thanks for replying to my comment!
@@PakmanPulse Of course! :) - I think it probably will be a DPR bump, but to be honest, I've only heard the rumors and haven't spent a *lot* of time digging into all the leaked details - I'm pretty sure I'll need to do a post Tasha's "Bladesinger 2.0" episode after the book officially comes out next week :P.
Awesome video, thanks for the tips, I really like how you built this around shadowblade & Elven accuracy. What are your thoughts on taking a fighter 1 dip at lvl 1? The con saves, fighting style & second wind + hp seem great for early survivability and later for warcaster saves, but it does delay your progression...
Thanks! Every time I think about/play this build, I always want to take a 1 level Fighter dip for all the reasons you state. It's just so hard to wait even longer on that extra attack (which already doesn't come until level 6) and the higher level spells! That said, it's absolutely worth considering.
@@DnDDeepDive thanks for getting back to me - was able to join a campaign at lvl 7 this week, ran your build but w the 1st lvl fighter (just bc I came in at a perfect time for it, 6/1 split).... Totally understand why you said you felt like a god, I wasn't hit once across 3 battles with monsters of 19 and 20 AC, and missed only a single attack the whole session, averaging like 40 dpr while everyone else was getting smoked lol - very excited to get to that 5th level shadow blade :)
@@valmoisand Nice! You know, playing this right now at level 11, and the saddest thing about hitting level 9 was that I knew I should be using Animate objects instead of Shadow Blade for my concentration :). Don't get me wrong, Animate Objects is also a lot of fun, and if the enemy has resistance to non-magical attacks (or a fireball for you coins) it doesn't work as well, but otherwise, the damage is just better, and I'm sad not having my lightsaber anymore - lol.
@@DnDDeepDive 100% understand, my DM let me wall flip into an attack to kill a drider yesterday and I totally felt like an elven jedi. Will def hit you up as I lvl up for that sweet optimization advice 😁
Odds are good this is just an issue of pedantic semantics on my part! If so, totally ignore this. If not, I may see an error. Are you backing out the chance to crit from the chance to hit? For example: * If you have a 50% chance to hit (hit on 11 or higher) * And if you have a 5% chance to crit .... * Your actual chance to hit is 45% because 5% of that time you got a critical hit rather than a regular hit. You miss on a roll of 1-10, you hit on a roll of 11-19, and you crit on a roll of 20. I'm reading your description of the math and I am certain I don't see it. It doesn't really matter if the description lacks a tiny dumb detail as long as the math includes it. I'm looking at the math in your spreadsheet and I don't think I see this represented. 1-(((15-(5+1))/20)*((15-(5+1))*((15-(5+1))/20))
Your graph's level 6 damage va AC 15 shows 41. I ran my algorithm and I got 34.34. The first time I ran it I accidentally included offhand dexterity modifier damage and didn't decrease the die size and I got the same 41 you had (41.595). As I went in to correct for the offhand damage on the shortsword I realized, this shortsword isn't the shadowblade. It wouldn't have advantage due to darkness which would rob this attack of both advantage and the elven accuracy bonus. (my errors that lead me to your number: included dex modifier on offhand, rolled 1D8 instead of 1D6, included advantage and elven accuracy on a shortsword that doesn't inherently get advantage in dim light) That dropped the average damage per swing of this attack from 7.949 down to 2.45. (from 1D8+3 with elven advantage, down to 1D6 with no modifier to damage and no advantage or elven accuracy) This also dropped the full round's damage from 41.595 down to 34.34. This still compares favorably to a greatsword wielded by a halforc with great weapon fighting style and great weapon and an ASI into strength for an extra +1 to hit and damage. That version would output 10.668 per swing dealing roughly 21 in a regular round and roughly 32 on any round when they get their bonus action attack for great weapon master. The blade singer is still poised to deal almost 7% extra damage per round (which sounds like a lot ... but it's about 2 damage per round) This also means that virtually any 6th level character with two greatsword swings and the fighting style and feat can match the damage output at level 6 assuming the bonus attack does trigger, and assuming shadow blade concentration is never lost). Now, what this damage output doesn't do is take ANY chance for losing shadow blade into account. Even with a bonus to your concentration and advantage on the roll it's possible for it to drop even in the first round (just like it isn't likely but it's possible to miss even with elven accuracy and +7 to hit AC 15).
I’d be happy to share my JavaScript files for this stuff with you. It may be possible to duplicate the functionality in something like Google spreadsheets. Most of the math isn’t very hard. I’m not sure how to do all of it in there though. For example to calculate accuracy I do use a random number generator to roll the die in question hundreds of thousands of times. Then tally those up. In the case of the Halfling if the original roll value is 1 it will trigger a reroll and only the second roll is tabulated. That gives me the odds that a given number will be rolled on a D20. So, then I calculate the hit chance and back out the crit chance and you have an idea for how many attacks out of 100 would do a regular hit of damage. Calculating damage isn’t too hard. You need four version of each weapon damage die. No modifiers, great weapon fighting style, savage attacker feat, and both great weapon and savage attacker feat. Then you use the average result of that die and multiply by the number of dice and then add in the modifier. Each source of damage is calculated separately so if you have a slashing sword that has extra fire damage and also radiant damage you can track each of those separately to take residence and immunity and vulnerability into account. The half orc racial just requires you to look at each die involved in the total attack and take immunity and the rest into account then use the one with the most benefit (so a 1D12 great axe dealing fire that also does 1D4 radiant damage would leave the halforc doing an extra 1D4 radiant damage to the fire immune source … but only on a critical hit). At some point I’ll build a front end for it and serve it from a backend. That will let anyone type in numbers and pick options to calculate the damage for an attack. Right now it’s just the raw functionality.
I encountered a problem: it's so squishy. Can you do an Eldritch Knight version of this build? Quick question though, would it be better for an EK to dump Dex rather than Str?
Will take a look! That said, having played it to level 11 so far, I'll say that I'm tankier than most of my teammates - between a high dex, mage armor (or studded leather+1), and Bladesong, I'm typically running a 21 AC , which I can bump when needed to 26 with Shield spell. Between that and Absorb Elements/Mirror Image I almost never get hit and if I do with magic, I can make myself resistant. Works great!
If my halfing swashbuckler dies in TOA, I'm planning to come back as a Bladesinger (but also eyeing Eldritch Knight). I think dumping STR on EK and focusing on DEX (rapier) would be how I built it. 14 DEX and using medium armor probably.
@@DnDDeepDive was thinking taking Toughness could help with squishiness? I'm thinking a Bladesinger, and taking toughness will increase their HP to be equivalent of a single classed fighter, more or less, depending on CON.
@@MarcusArtorius More HP is always good! I'd personally want to max Int for the bump Bladesinger gets to both AC *and* damage (after level 14), not to mention DC on their other spells etc...
Add Paladin Smite to Shadow Blade. BOOM BOOM upto + 5D8 Radiant Damage, on each attack. Also I heard you can use Great Weapon Master on any melee attack to get an extra Bonus attack so no need for a short sword...
I believe the extra attack would only come if you crit *or* get a killing blow - granted it would happen somewhat regularly and would be much stronger than a short sword with no bonus to damage, so worth considering. I love the pally smite idea I just... can't bring myself to delay those high level spell slots, extra attack at level 6, adding bonus damage to each attack at level 14, etc. etc. :).
@@DnDDeepDive Hey i have a build for you based on the new changes to Blade Singer from Tashas Couldron. I use War Magic from Eldritch Knight to get another attack after the Cantrip is cast giving 2 attacks and Cantrip every round. docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12tc0L6pyw-GNlCdWNeE7URj-L3bhbhObYg8Es8eD95o/edit?usp=sharing
@@nickfallonphotography3764 I couldn't get into see the doc :). But I'm assuming you'd be going EK to 7 and Bladesinger to 6, yes? so this would theoretically kick in at level 13? It's definitely interesting, but keep in mind that, RAW, you can't use Shadowblade with Booming Blade anymore... also, these two statements from EK and BS seem to be in conflict - from EK: "Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action." and from BS: "You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks." It seems like the one kicks in when you use your action to cast a cantrip, and the other when you use your action to take the Attack action. I can definitely see a DM allowing it, but it *seems* like RAW you have to choose one or the other... Still, I like the way your brain is going here :).
@@DnDDeepDive Yes but you can hold a Rapier in your off hand, and cast booming blade on it. Pick up 2 Weapon Fighting, Booming Blade is an extra 3d8+3 at 13th lvl. You should be able to see it now.
@@DnDDeepDive but on the flip side I think at level 6 bladesinger can now chose 2nd attack or cast a cantrip, so reactive damage is nerfed, but direct damage on your turn is a bit higher now with greenflame or booming. I haven't seen the exact wording of all bladesinger changes, so we'll see.
@@Tyrgoth99 this change could also allow a double wielder bladesinger to attack three times in a turn in lvl 6, one of those attacks being a SCAG cantrip. Or even better, just wield one weapon, attack twice (one of those being a booming blade) and use your bonus action to attack with a flaming sphere. Now the target needs to choose whether they move on their turn and take the extra damage from booming blade, or stay in place and take extra damage from flaming sphere. It's straight up evil
@@quetzalcoatlus1892 sadly, no. Casting these cantrips is an action. Which means at level 6 it would replace the two attacks. So oddly enough these cantrips become situational for bladesingers. But for another single melee attack caster (cleric) they are still pretty powerful. No more spell sniping with a polearms, or hitting mooks with boomingblade reactions when they move away.
*great* question. As much as it pains me (because I'm usually so anxious to get into the fight), I'll typically start my Bladesong first, because the bonus you get to concentration saves is big and it *really* sucks to go Shadow Blade first, then before round two take damage and lose Shadow Blade lol. Plus AC bump from it is important, and, as we all know, a dead Bladesinger does 0 DPR :). My first round of combat is typically (depending on how many spell slots I have) Cast Mirror Image (or throw a fireball if the enemies are grouped up nicely), start singing, then round two is summon Shadow Blade and attack.
D&D: Optimized That was my guess regarding blade song first. I like the mirror images also. Need to keep those limited HP. My character is a level 2 fighter and level 2 BS. So my HP are not a complete dumpster fire :)
@@bryankia Nice - dueling fighting style (or two-weapon) combined with action surge make shadow blade that much more powerful! I just hate delaying my higher level spells and, especially, extra attack and song of victory, so I can never bring myself to multi-class...
D&D: Optimized Long story short I am “evolving my character”. He was a 3rd level battle master and I asked the GM if I could go in a different direction. We decided on selling one level back of fighter and adding 2 levels of BS. I will have the option to sell the other two levels of fighter back. Not sure what I will do. That said at 4th level I sure which I had the shadow blade....
I had a realisation: a swing of Shadow Blade(3rd level) would be 3d8+mod psychic but 3 shortsword attacks would be 3d6+*3*mod piercing damage. Which would prolly make Haste slightly better? Or more consistent at least.
Well, keep in mind that Haste just gives you one additional weapon attack. Both the Shadowblade user and the haste user get to make an off-hand short sword attack if they want. So Really haste is just 2d6+8 (assuming 5th level, and that we took EA for free at level 1 with Custom Lineage) compared to 3d8+4 - 15 vs. 17.5. Advantage Shadowblade. And, of course, if you're fighting in Dim Light or Darkness...
Hm... let's see... Shadowblade+Shortsword off hand at level 6 = 6d8 for shadowblade (2 attacks) + 1d6 for Shortsword (Bonus Action) = 30.5 on average if everything lands (not counting Dex bonuses here). Spirit Shroud would be 3d6 and 3d8 for all of your attacks combined, for a total of 24 if everything lands. The problem with upcasting, is that it only gets bumped at spell level 5, and at level 5 you should probably be using Animate Objects unless the enemy is resistant to non-magical attacks... but let's say they *are* resistant to non-magical attacks, in which case a 5th level Shadowblade would do 8d8 total (two attacks) plus 1d6 for the off hand for 39.5 total damage, whereas Spirit Shroud would be 3d6 plus 6d8 for 37.5. Still off by two. What am I missing?
With the errata Bladesinger's can cast a cantrip with extra attack, replacing one of their attacks. GFB and Booming Blade doesn't work with Shadowblade, although you may be able to handwave that. Otherwise you would miss out on a scaling d8 damage, plus it's potential for secondary damage. You also forget the possibility of magic weapons, while not as good as advantage, can make a difference. Spirit Shroud isn't great at 3rd level, it's a spell that really shines when upcast. It will beat out Shadowblade when upcast to 4th - simply because Shadowblade doesn't scale at 4th. The difference being 7 average damage - 37.5 vs. 30.5, and goes up by 4.5 with a SCAG cantrip. Upcast at 5th level is +3d8 to all your attacks, so with extra attack and bonus action attack that's +9d8 - meaning 44 average damage, compared to Shadowblade's 39.5. With a SCAG cantrip the difference goes up to 4.5 and 9 damage respectively. Neither beats Animate Object, but very few things do. There is potential however with Contingency and Haste, letting Spirit Shroud upcast to 6th - assuming 18 dex, two shortswords - with one at +1, and SCAG cantrip - that's 2d8 + (4d8 x4) + (1d6+5 x3) + (1d6) = 110 average damage. Animbate Object would be around 78 average damage if upcast at 6th, but for less resources. Shadowblade is still best at 2nd and 3rd level, even if you can't cast SCAG cantrips with it.
@@Vatis93 Yes, wasn't considering the BB/GFB "buff" (feels like a red herring but only because it doesn't work with Shadow Blade which makes me sad :) ). But I think you might be misreading the way it upscales: it goes up 1d8 for every *two* levels above 3rd. So at 5th level it's an extra 2d8 per attack for a total of 6d8. That said, I think the new summon spells might be even better... check out Summon Fey or Construct cast at lvl 4...
@@DnDDeepDive Ah, alright - I see. My bad. I didn't account for the change from UA to Tasha's. I'm looking forward to your take on summons in that case.
When I look at the tier 1 sustained DPR the damage I see for the Bladesinger that is the new 2.0 with custom lineage or the normal elf one? We don't allow elven accuracy with custom lineage in my group
Good question and reminder - I haven't yet updated all of the numbers on the spreadsheet to account for it, though admittedly I don't *think* it will have a huge impact on Bladesinger, but it will bump it down just a titch.
Indeed - it is a tragedy! Planning on doing a 2.0 sometime in the near future, but honestly from levels 3 to 8 you're probably just making 2 attacks with Shadowblade instead of casting a cantrip (the cantrip thing is only optional). I *think* you can use your off hand short sword to booming blade opportunity attack (via War Caster) if it ever comes up... I can't think of why you couldn't, at least. Once you hit 9 your concentration goes to Animate Objects and you booming blade action with a rapier. Stay tuned for details :)
@@DnDDeepDive Another interesting option is Mobile, possibly instead of warcaster. You get 50 feet of movement, poke 1-2 targets that wont get AoO against you while you move in, stike and back out again. You will more or less be a swashbuckler, only better. Pair this with other character with sentinel and your own booming blade and you will get hit way less. That of course helps with concentration and defensive spell management. And perhaps flaming sphere is a good substitute for shadow blade?
Jeremy Crawford commented on this. And this may not prohibit shadow blade and booming blade. “This change has nothing to do with prohibiting or allowing Shadow Blade to combine with Booming/Green-Flame Blade. It's about fixing those two cantrips. As DM, I'd allow those them to combo, since I make liberal use of the rule on improvised weapons.” Consult w/ your DM. Happy singing.
Crawford’s comment seems to indicate the change to a weapon worth 1 sp was meant to prevent the weapon from being substituted with an arcane focus or component pouch. Not sure how you could sub out the weapon and still have the spell work but D&D players are creative.
Am I missing a step here? Why are you able to dial wield a rapier and short sword? A rapier isn’t a light weapon. Loved the video otherwise! Great work.
@@DnDDeepDive You're welcome. I appreciate the quick reply, sorry for wasting your time I didn't see any comments mentioning it, guess I didn't look hard enough.
@@daniel-z9q2f no worries! Glad I have people double checking and keeping me straight :) ps version 2.0 of this build is out tomorrow and I talk about this little errata.
Hm... I assume you mean Gloom Stalker? I can see some synergies, though I personally prefer to play my Bladesingers as straight Bladesingers, so as not to delay extra attack, higher level spells and spell slots, etc. Unless, perhaps, you were most interested in Burst/Nova damage, but in that case I feel like a Fighter dip might serve a little better...
I absolutely love your guides, man. Just discovered your channel. Are you taking into account the number of fights per day with these things? DMG page 84 days 6-7 medium to hard fights per day. Most tables play “wrong” and do so accidentally. This unintentionally makes players stronger and makes enemies feel weaker. For example the blade song you get starts with 2 uses per day. You have that for 6-8 fights. Meaning you get it for 25-33% of encounters. That’s the intention. That AC is outstanding. But, you aren’t designed to have it for more than half of your encounters until you get +4 proficiency bonus.
Thanks and welcome! Right, I explain this a little better in later videos, I think, but generally, when I crunch numbers for "sustainable" DPR, the threshold is that they are capable of doing that level of damage for *at least* one entire combat encounter per day. I appreciate that that's a very low bar to set, and *most* builds are capable of hitting those numbers for multiple encounters per day. Very few, however, are getting up to 6-8, and the reason for that, I think, is, like you said, the fact that most tables (based on what I've read and polling I've done amongst my audience) are typically only seeing 2-4 encounters per long rest, with 1-2 per short rest. That's how it's always been at our table as well. So, yes, if your table is seeing a lot more than that number of combats per day, then the Fighters of the world get a lot stronger (though Barbarians, by contrast, tend to be in the same boat as spell casters in that scenario, since they are limited on Rage use).
@@DnDDeepDive I hear you. I built a tool that does damage calculation. It determines accuracy for about 13 different conditions (from Halfling reroll on a 1 to disadvantage and every combination). And it covers damage modifiers (from great weapon fighting style to savage attacker feat). When I compare damage output I calculate damage per swing. Assuming 100 attacks on the same target and combining average hit, miss, and crit damage taking accuracy and crit chance into account. I tend to calculate the damage you can expect to deal per swing and then look at what resources you have to spend to maintain that. For example at level 3 the blade singer doesn’t have enough second level spell slots to cast the shadow blade in every fight. When you compare that to a greatsword wielding character that feels important. If you assume 7 fights per day the disparity grows. I think it boils down to consistency. If you make your numbers totally consistent it feels like the safest comparison.
@@DnDDeepDive totally looking forward to diving into your spreadsheet! I don’t know how many of me there are. But, I’ve gotta be your target audience. 🤣
Shadow blade gives a 2d8 damage during your bonus attack and attack action in the first round. What about the second round of combat, can it still be used in bonus attack action?
Actually, you summon it as a bonus action, and from that point, it's your weapon and functions essentially like other weapons. So the first round you summon it, you'd make your attack(s) with it as your action. From there, each turn you'd just attack with it using your action, and do something else with a bonus action (most likely an "off hand" attack with a short sword, etc.)
Why are you buying this stuff? Wizards can't use the weapons or armor (yet) and need a spellbook and other things that are expensive. The standard stuff given will give them a spellbook, a pack, a dagger or a quarterstaff and a component pouch or an arcane focus. Their background will give them other stuff like clothes and cash. A gold buy will give them 4d4 x10 GP, which might not be enough to get everything they need. Wait to buy stuff you need at second level after you have earned some money. I find the blending of cantrips and spells under the heading spells to be annoying. Even now I don't always recognize the difference in the writeups. The whole "spells" category is really inadequate for Wizards. Do you mean spells in the spellbook or spells prepared? Why purchase armor? Because you can get an AC of 15/18 without spending any spell slots, OR you can get an AC of 16/19 for eight hours by spending a spell slot. That is too high a price at low levels. I would take Elven Accuracy and save Warcaster for 8th level. Increasing your Dex to 18 and giving you three d20s to roll when you have advantage seems to be better for a melee character. You can sheathe your shortsword when you won't be Bladesinging. As far as having a hand free to cast spells, have you ever heard of sword knots?
Come join the conversation at reddit.com/r/DnDoptimized/
Why is Homelander talking about D&D?
Because it helps me seem less terrifying. It's a PR thing.
This channel is super underrated, great content man, subbed. After watching most your vids, it would be cool if you made a tier list for all the classes you did episodes on and possibly future ones too. Would be hype, but keep up the good work 👍
Thanks friend! I've been thinking about that, actually. At the very least, I'll probably need to start separating my "Master Sustained Damage" builds since that makes up the bulk of the episodes so far, and it's a little tougher to compare 10-12 builds on a graph than 5-6. I'm running out of colors! :)
I just found this page and I wholeheartedly agree!!
For sure, basically the same content as other min/max channels but way easier to listen too.
This video inspired me to make my favorite character I've played to date. Thank you!
Awesome! And, you're welcome! :)
same lol
The first character that I've made on dnd was a bladesinger and I've played it with the same logic, it was a pain in ass for the dm (I even inspired him to make an enemy npc like the bladesinger), it's extremely fun.
I wasn't planing on playing anything else other than a wizard, but since my first game I play only bladesingers! LOL!
P.S. Get an Amulet of Health!
I stumbled across Bladesinger when I rolled up a Wood Elf Wizard that used a Shortsword instead of Staff. My DM suggested Bladesinger and I really enjoy it. I’m Level 4 right now and using Shadowblade/Short Sword. Thanks for the guide; it reinforces the choices I’ve already made and shapes what to take at higher levels. I enjoyed your conversational style and have Subscribed.
Thanks! Still my favorite :). The only thing that makes me a little sad about the sub class is that, as you get higher level, it starts to feel a little less unique and a little more like other Wizards - the reality is, those high level spells are so strong, it's hard to justify not using them and just sticking with your Shadowblade/melee focus. Of course, using Animate Objects as a bonus action and still being in the mix hitting stuff with a rapier with a super high AC is still fun and devastating, and being able to take better advantage of things like Tenser's Transformation than other Wizards is also pretty cool :).
Currently playing a bladesinger, and I have to say it's pretty amazing! We rolled for stats and I was lucky enough to be able to take 2 lvls of paladin on my bladesinger build. Using shadow blade and smites with the versatility of the wizard spell list has made for a very enjoyable experience.
That will make for some pretty sweet nova damage!
Oh wow. A legit Jedi. And those numbers are nuts! Keep up the good work! I am enjoying these. Would love to see your number crunching on the coffee-lock meme.
Thanks! You know, I almost got into the coffee-lock in my last episode, because it's doable with the Eldritch Sorcerer, but it gets so much hate from the community that I decided not to stir the pot :P. Maybe I should revisit...
Lol, if you don't want to stir the pot I'm sure you will find something. People get a little too upset about white-room dnd I think.
Most Wizards become fun at level 5, Bladesingers are fun from level 2. if your campaign is likely to end at around level 12 play a bladesinger if it's going to 20 play any other subclass except necromancer obviously. That said, 17 levels of Bladesinger and 3 levels of Rogue is one of my favourite builds.
Loving your channel! 3 levels of Assassin or Arcane trickster works well with Bladesinger, and flaming sphere combos nicely with booming blade; damage if they move, damage if they don't. I know it treads on the toes of shadow blade but it works.
Yeah, there really are some great multi-class options for my beloved Bladesinger - Fighter is an easy one, giving action surge and duelist feat for an easy two levels, or darkness/devil's sight warlock for permanent advantage ... every time I consider multi-classing though I always just look at those higher level spells and... just can't make myself do it :).
I understand. I've rebuilt the "same" bladesinger a half dozen times during quarantine and still can't make my mind up.
Great advice from Homelander, I love it 🥰 I'm a bit proud I already hit the big points into playing a Bladesinger, but regrettably except taking Shadow Blade 😢 Definitely taking that now
Spells like Protection from Evil/Good and Warding Wind are great defensive options to make you even harder to hit, but they eat up your concentration. Elemental Bane is a good higher end pickup if you have an elemental weapon, and Greater Invisibility gives you advantage on all your attacks on anything without True Seeing.
I've been playing a bladesinger and it's been by far my favorite character I've played. Ended up rolling insane stats for him and with the Tough and Mobile feats he's hard as hell to hit and can take a few hits to boot. He's a Valenar wood elf so he has a 45ft base speed with Mobile, 55 when he's singing
Been watching this again trying to make a themed build and I had this idea: 3-4 levels of Fighter(Champion). Would that improve the build or take away from it? I'm thinking 9th to 11/12th level.
Every time I think about or play this build I'm tempted to take Fighter levels. You get so much for not a big investment, but I never end up doing it because delaying all those great things like extra attack and higher level spells really really hurts. If I were to do it, I'd probably only go 1 level. If I went as high as 3, I'd personally go Rune Master, though Champion isn't a bad idea since you'll often have triple advantage and with a crit on a 19 or 20 you'll be critting a lot.
My bladesinger (int 20) is using defensive duelist (using only one weapon instead of two), which gives me a reaction that enhances my AC by 6. This saves me from using the shield spell. I have offset the lack of attacks by taking 2 levels of fighter (for action surge). He wears simple studded leather, has armored fighting style. During bladesong, with defensive duelist, I have an AC of 27 against melee attacks. Probably the best tank I have ever played.
Defensive duelist is a trap. Ac increase of proficiency bonus, for that one attack only. A creature with multi attack then can hit you easier after that first attack. Shield is infinitely better, and it doesn't take up a feat to use. Do what you like, but it certainly isn't optimized.
@@Jk-zv6tz Here's my problem with the Shield spell: you only have a finite number of spell slots, while the Feat can be used every single time I have a free reaction, an infinite number of times per day. No rest required.
That said, there is something to your comment. That's why 5E is such a good system for me: we all have our own preferred combat actions and the game allows you to adapt it as desired.
@@edh9999 I've never really had a problem with running out of shield with a BS. Naturally high ac means you only have to use shield very rarely. Add arcane recovery into the mix along with most dms don't do the 4-8 combat encounters per day the books suggest... Just really isn't a problem.
If most of your campaign is back to back combat without rest, I see a place for DS. How most games a run, it's a wasted ASI/feat that would work better.
Mobile, better than defensive duelist.
"Best block Daniel son, No be there" -Mr Miyagi.
Being able to dart in and out of combat is better than using DS for one attack only, which also eats up your reaction. No more counterspell for you, but at least you blocked 1 single attack lol. If it was a free feat, then sure, it can be useful IF you've somehow run out of 1st spell slots. But eating up a feat or asi for it? Absolutely horrible if optimizing.
Defensive Duelist? What?
@@ninjasquirrels A feat that allows you to use your reaction to add your profieciency bonus to your AC if you only use a single one-handed weapon.
I would like to see how the new Tasha’s Guide to Everything material changes this build.
just done some maths... its insanity... it consistantly outdamages powerbuilt hexblade warlocks at lv 9 and 13 by 10dpr, and hexblades take at least 1 action to set up
Working on a bit of an overview for this week's episode, then plan on doing a Bladesinger 2.0 the week after - stay tuned!
@@DnDDeepDive What do you think of going with a different race? Tortle lets you dump DEX if you want to.
@@krunchyfrogg I think going forward almost all builds will be strongest with the "custom lineage" option, unless you have little use for a free feat, which is hard to imagine :). The nice thing about it is you can be a Tortle under that option if you want, at least for role play and aesthetic purposes (you just wouldn't get the things like a starting 17 AC if you did).
@@DnDDeepDive Please don’t keep us hanging 👍🏻
Since shadow blade you are summoning a weapon are you allowed to add your dex mod to it?
yes! It's considered to be a finesse weapon, so works just like other finesse weapons in that regard :).
Thanks for your thoughts. I have heard some negative things about this sub class. I think I am going to give it a try.
I noticed when you mentioned the Familiar you left out that you can also have them cast spells with a range of touch. I've used my owl to cast Dragon's Breath on a crowd of enemies and invisibility to my companions. Wizard is my favorite class for their versatility; playing one currently.
If your DM is permissive, you can talk him into casting glyph of warding in the bag of holdings with glyphs of haste and shadow blade and anything else your hear desires. The downside is that it is costly at 300 GP per glyph
4k views suddenly after Tasha's came out. Sus. get away from my new main
lol - admittedly, I was up to like 3.8k last I checked... but still, I'm going to need to put out a 2.0 Bladesinger guide very soon I think.
For a level 7 spell, there's Crown of Stars which can give you something to do with your bonus action. If all you are doing is an offhand attack with a regular weapon anyway, this gives you 7 rounds of ranged attacks at 4d12 radiant damage instead. Something to think about.
BTW I really like your channel, optimization is one of my favourite things to do in D&D, so I can come here and get a educated second opinion on builds I've been thinking about as well.
Thank you! I love the Crown of Stars idea as well. Admittedly, when number-crunching I'm upcasting Shadow blade to 7th level (where it caps), but once you also have an 8th level slot, this would obviously be a big bump to sustained damage. Really though, at that point, you're probably *not* going to be using a 7th level+spell slot to upcast Shadow Blade, as there are just so many powerful options, but for the sake of the spread sheets, I might need to add Crown in to a level 17 damage report :).
They way you talk about these things is incredibly seductive from time to time.
Ha ha - thanks! D&D can be sexy... right? :P
@@DnDDeepDive Indeed it can. Also sexy is the apparent change to the blade singer in Tasha's: cantrip + weapon attack.
@@JoschiChr can’t wait!
O.o
@@DnDDeepDive I second this
With Tasha's book out, I'm about to start playing a campaign as a Drow Bladesinger Priestess of Eilistraee. DM approves and I accept the roleplay difficulty, but this will be fun!
awesome! I plan on putting out an updated Bladesinger guide in probably 2 weeks - stay tuned :)
My focus on spells will be a few defensive spells - Absorb Elements, Shield, Mirror Image - Shadow Blade, and the rest will be utility spells for outside of combat. Brings a TON to the table instead of being just another boom-caster
Lol Im not playing Drow but sammme. Yout watch that mrRhex vid too
I agree with almost everything, very nice guide. I would just to point out that haste has much more value than you said +2 to AC, dex save advantage doubling your movement and than giving you an extra action with limitations but you can still use the dodge action, disengage and so on and last but not least you can up cast it to affect more party members soooo much more value than shadow blade at least in my opinion, and you're right only if you consider only your personal dmg as a melee char but an extra hit from your barbarian/rogue/paladin/fighter should balance the scales.Goblins are awesome bladesinger if they are allowed, and i'm uncertain if you can dual wield while bladesinging maybe i'm wrong but i kinda remember that you need to have an hand free to bladesong
Haste definitely has a lot of advantages, though if you’re using it just for your own concentration, your damage will be less. Also, it has a big down side: if you lose concentration, you lose an entire turn! As for up-casting, If you’re up casting it to affect more players then you must be playing with home brew rules or playing a sorc with twin spell meta magic 😉
@@DnDDeepDive Ah silly me i was certain that you could up cast haste to add other targets, so i think that haste vs shadow blade showdown changes a bit now shadow blade is fantastic for raw damage but on the right build i still think that haste performs better if used for example on a bladesinger with mobility feat or a goblin with disengage as bonus action so you can dart in and out of melee range with an high level monk like speed without getting any AoO. Sure you lose some damage (kinda more than some) but you can gain a butt load of defence capabilities and we both know that dead/fainted wizards do no damage, so for me it stays as a toss up between the two spells and so the combination of foes and/or battlefield and party status would change which one is the most useful for the fight. Thank you for fact checking me on haste i can't believe i was so wrong about it. May you clarify me a thing? The bladesong feature says that you can't attack with both hands does it refers only for 2h weapons or it applies to dual wielding too? Just because i discarded the dual wielding possibility on my bladesinger because of that
@@Shamalaya311 No worries! My understanding is that you just can't attack using two hands for a single weapon - so even, say, if you tried to go two hands on a versatile weapon, like longsword, you'd lose the benefit, as it says "if you use two hands to make an attack with *a* weapon" (as opposed to, say, "use both hands to make weapon attacks" or something). That said, the damage you get from your "off-hand" is very slight, especially since you're so often using your bonus action for other things. Yes, haste has a lot of great strengths, no doubt. That said, in practice, I find my Bladesinger so tanky, between the shield spell, absorb elements, mirror image, and a great chance to make my dex saves and concentration saves, that I prefer to just stand in the fight and go toe to toe with the baddies, but I've always preferred the high-risk high-reward playstyle :).
Thoughts on starting as a level 1 fighter for concentration saving throws? Do it, don't do it? Going to start Icewind Dale this Saturday, and it has players go from level 1-12. I rolled super good, 17, 17, 16, 13, 12, 9. So with eladrin elf, dex is 19, int is 18, will take warcaster and then elven accuracy dex 20. So I won't really need the extra ASI at 12th level. Thanks, loved the video, super helpful!
Glad you liked it! This is such a tough call - I often waiver back and forth between multiclassing Fighter or not. On the one hand, proficiency in Con and extra HP plus a fighting style (probably Duelist) is really great. On the other, delaying your Shadowblade, your higher level spells, and maybe most painfully, your extra attack (which you already have to wait until 6 for... so now it's 7) is *so* painful. Also, if you're going 1 level in fighter, it so tempting to go 2, because Action Surge is really strong, and if you're going 2, might as well go 3, because picking up an archetype is great, and if 3, then just one more level for an ASI... lol. I tend to just go straight Bladesinger when I do, but maybe just one level in Fighter is totally viable. I'd be even more tempted to do it if I started the campaign at, say, level 7 :).
@@DnDDeepDivethanks for your input! lol yeah that action surge is so tempting, but I agree delaying spell progression and extra attack is brutal. I guess in your experience, how often do you feel you lose concentration? Because not only would the con save with warcaster be nice, but I was thinking the extra +1AC from defensive fighting style might help avoid getting hit in the first place. I'd probably take extra levels of fighter only after getting to bladesinger's extra attack, and maybe even after elven accuracy. Thanks again!
Hoan Chung right - with the bonus from blade singing and war caster, you won’t lose concentration very often, even without proficiency.
diaster blade from rime of the frost maiden is the best 9lvl spell for this build bonus action to cast, crits on 18 and up, doe 4d12 force dmg standard, does 12d12 force dmg on a crit, bonus action move the spell and make two attacks.
It's a good one and I plan on discussing in my 2.0 version video releasing this week!
@@DnDDeepDive Can you please help settle this as it is an issue that is starting to ruin both the game experience and friendships. The older players of the group are arguing against the newer players in the group about the rogue sneak attack.
The older players say "When using Sneak attack you only use sneak attack dice and ntn else." Example level 5 rogue hits with bow and wants to use sneak attack so they only deal 3d6 damage.
The newer players say "when using Sneak attack you add the sneak attack dice on top of the damage your attack already does." Example level 5 rogue hits with bow and wants to use sneak attack so they would deal the bow damage + 3d6
@@codyscherer6930 Your older players are idiots 😂 Of course you add weapon damage to sneak attack. Tell them to read the damn phb.
Hey, I loved your video, and I was hoping to make a request. Could you make a follow up video for this build that includes the revisions of Bladesinger, Shadowblade, and the SCAG cantrips seen in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything?
Absolutely planning on it - stay tuned for Tasha's episode 1 this week, then the week after I'm planning on releasing my Bladesinger 2.0 :). Glad you're enjoying it!
ok colby is a straight up snack.
Ha ha - thanks! ☺️
Sorry a little late to the party, how are you dual wielding with a rapier and shortsword without dual wielded feat? Rapier isn’t light so can’t be used to dual wield without the feat. Shadow blade however is light so can be used with a shortsword so long as you have proficiency for it.
Yep that was my mistake :). I think someone corrected me earlier on - admittedly, your BA later is so often used between Shadowblade, Bladesong, Misty Step, Animate objects, etc, that I find I rarely even get an off-hand attack anyway, but still important to know, esp early.
You can use Shadowblade and Booming Blade following this steps
1) Have Two-Weapon Fightingstyle and Dual Wielder feat, and use your weapon of choice and Shadowblade when dual wielding.
First attack: Shadowblade
Second attack: Weapon of choice + Booming Blade
Offhand attack: Shadowblade
When taking the attack action and having extra attack, you can use whatever the hand you want to attack, but to make this you would have to spend 2 ASI into Dual Wielder + Two-Weapon Fighting. Maybe it would be worth it to take that 1 fighter level to get the fightingstyle.
Confused by what exactly you mean about absorb elements.. are you referring to up casting it for the extra damage? Because regardless of the level of spell triggering it, you’re still reducing it by half; which is why you cast it... the bonus damage is just icing. And if you’ve already burned all your 1st levels on shields/whatnot, you’re still getting increased benefit.
Yep I misworded that, as others have pointed out :). Resistance is huge and extra dmg is icing!
I’m trying to piece through a system for more complete comparisons. Rather than damage per swing or damage per swing times swings per round I feel like there should be set encounters for the day at a given level.
* pair of creatures for 5 battles per day. One with high AC and one with low AC. Ideally one with medium to high saving throws and one with low to medium saving throws. (I don’t know what the XP/CR value of these should be per level tier)
* group of 5 creatures for 2 battles per day. (This gives an opportunity for AOE focused builds to shine) (some assumptions need to be made for how far apart creatures are in each type of fight. Sometimes things with be adjacent, but that isn’t all the time in every fight)
* 7 total battles per day as per the DMG. People can house rule any way they like but the basic comparison might as well show intended balance.
* assumed 4 player party (tricks like darkness and devil’s sight are supremely selfish and not conducive to being in a party because the selfishness robs the other players of the ability to contribute)
* assume a primary tank who takes 50% of attacks. A secondary tank who takes 25% of attacks and two squishies who take 12.5% of attacks. Melee type characters would always be tank or secondary tank. (I think this needs more thought)
* assume reaction attack once per 10 rounds. (Unsure of this. There should be some value to reaction based builds while keeping in mind how rare they typically are …. I can go months of D&D sessions without seeing a single one).
* general goal is to find out how many rounds it takes to kill everything or how many rounds before the build dies. There needs to be a version to track DPS, damage mitigation, healing output, and support based options (reduced enemy damage from paralysis or whatever) (I think this needs a lot of work)
* assumptions need to be made on anything that only has a chance to trigger. Statistically you know how often a build will crit or kill a thing for great weapon master. That’s easy. Polearm master is harder. With only one reaction and multiple targets some percentage of the time you’ll get to use a reaction on both. Other times they will both trigger the same round and you can only do it once. This includes things like elven accuracy and things that trigger from advantage. I feel like a thing like sneak attack can be relied on 80-90% of the time, and the occasions where the rogue doesn’t get it need to be accounted for … because that happens in games.
I don’t know what the key levels are but I think doing that for every level is a bad idea.
3, 5, 8, 10, 12
That’s what I’m leaning towards. Personally, I have no value for what happens at higher levels because I’ve been playing since the 90’s and games just never seem to run that long.
Anyone else hyped to add booming blade to every other attack after Tasha's coming out?
/raises hand
@@DnDDeepDive To bad it wont work with shadow blade. But you could use your short sword for the booming blade.
@@davidjohnson4657 YOU BROKE MY FUN BUBBLE
@@ashdaniels2332 Sorry, Booming blade now requires a weapon worth at least 1 sp. The blade in shadow blade does not have a value so it cant be used as the weapon in the spell. It would be up to your DM to say you could use it for booming blade/green flame blade.
Ash your fun bubble may be restored.
Jeremy Crawford’s tweet about the issue seems to indicate that the change to a weapon worth 1 sp was to prevent the material component from be substituted with an arcane focus. It is now a debate between RAI and RAW.
Dm tips: Hold person and wisdom save spells will get ya!
That's why I never dump Wis and rarely play characters who aren't proficient in the save. Incidentally Rogue get it at level 15, Monks at 14, Samurai and Gloomstalker at 7.
I've done a build very similar to this(it's not restricted to Elves in my DMs setting, so Variant Human with 1 level dip of fighter at the beginning) and it is the most fun character I've played in combat. It's not even close with any other character that's not some off the wall monstrosity I created.
Been playing a bladesinger, 1-8. Its freaking awesome. Absolutely my favorite chatacter to date, and my personal favorite wizard. I also played a necromancer 1-10. Which is also great because wizard.
post-tasha, I really like the tortle for this. You can choose whether to use dex or str to attack (or add 3 levels of battle smith artificer and completely run off INT).
Or choose goblin, which is almost like multiclassing rogue because you can bonus action disengage.
It's kinda crazy, the best subclass in 5e just got better.
Interesting take, I went with 4 lvls warlock, 4 assassin, 12 blade singer. I play dual wield , focus on darkness as I got devil sight and shadow armor. Most of my spells focus on teleporting around battle field via misty step, dimension door, steel wind strike, far step etc etc I got mage slayer feat so my go to is counter to other spell casters. Love darkness and shadow of moil always have advantage.
Might be worth thinking about a Shadow Blade build for Sorcs.
The two key ideas are twin spell and quicken spell, use them with Booming Blade to double your attacks for your action and attack again with Booming Shadow Blade as a bonus action. This not only gets you additional attacks, but adds quite a bit of scaling damage as well.
I realize Sorc points kind of mess with sustained damage, but if you liquidate your spell slots (above lvl 1 - keep those for shield) into points, you can keep it up for quite a while.
Possibly worth taking one level in CFV Ranger to start. You get 10 starting HP, a D10+1 Temp HP, a shield for your off hand, and non-concentration Hunters Mark.
I realize this gives up the advantage owl, but Sorc subclass features like Shadow Sorc or Wild Magic could get non-dim-light advantage back.
I really like this idea - I do have some reservations about sustainability like you mentioned, and the lack of AC bump and concentration bump Bladesinger gets is *somewhat* mitigated by a shield... definitely has potential for burstier damage, if it's not *totally* sustainable.
I have loved bladesinger since 2e and 5e is the best version. I would note that at levels 2-5 you get more out of Flaming Sphere. About 25% more damage on a single target. More of you can position it next to more than one target. It also sets up a wonderful lose-lose situation for the target. Stand still and eat more damage from the Flaming Sphere or move and trigger the extra damage from Booming Blade and potentially opportunity attacks.
Can I ask if you are straight, bi, or gay?
You can! I’m straight :)
@@DnDDeepDive Sad for me, but happy for you being you!
This is the best shit ever!! A pdf would be even better tho
In Our Game, I Play A Half-Elf BS, Our DM Allows The +2/+1/+1 To Be Put On Any 3 Stats Of Our Choice, I Put The +2 On DEX, +1 On INT & +1 On CON...
Makes For A Great Character Build...
& I Like Magic Missiles Instead Of Find Familiar...
Another fun build you might wanna look at is kobald battle smith artificer. Now I'm doing a multiclass but honestly the 3 lvl of fighter I plan to take at lvl 12-14 is just for char concept but there some good benefits. I took medium armor master at lvl 4 and will be taking mounted combatant at lvl 8.
At lvl 7 I have a 23 ac and cast blur at round 1. Blur is huge till lvl 11. Once I get my spell storing item at 11 tactics change to having my defender cast warding bond on me. At that point my concentration spell will be haste. So basically I'll have an ac of 28 (25 without any spell due to infusions. Add 1 from warding bond and 2 from haste.) Plus you now have resistances to all damage and double your hitpoints due to sharing your mount hitpoints from warding bond(which never gets hit due to mounted feat). So at lvl 11 you got 3 attacks. Very high ac. Now I want to get calvalier subclass so that I can give even more disadvantages to enemies besides just my defender. That's the jest of it. If you want more info let me know
Nice, will have to check it out - sounds near impossible to hit!
@@DnDDeepDive it is. now technically optimized would be gnome instead of kobald and probably dont need to take medium armor master but I love the permanent advantage when not in direct sunlight.
i never thought you could break the game this much... i mean the eldritch sorcerer was pretty good but this is kinda game-breaking. i love it.
Ha ha - I don't think of it as game breaking... more like... challenging your DM :P. And I'm sure there's better stuff out there... I'm actually anxious myself to see how the GWM Fighter/Barbarian deep dive I do for the next episode stacks up here... I have a feeling it will largely surpass the damage at low AC but not sure beyond that...
the haste argument is purely on the other things it provides. 2 AC, double movement, ADV on DEX saves. the extra attack is a nice additive but the ability to disengage with that movement is nice as well especially in situations where you cant misty step.
New blade singer in Tasha makes this even better!
can't wait for that book!
1 extra attack that your bladesinger deals might pale compare to shadow blade. But how about allowing the rogue to do a second sneak attack? would his sneak attack pale compare to yours? what about if he's a arcane tricker with shadow blade+booming blade+sneak attack, do his second sneak attack pale compare to yours?
What if you use haste to buff teh nova bursting paladin? or the raging barbarian using a powerful magical weapon?
And haste is not only 1 extra weapon swing, it's also double your speed, you you might reach your target without requiring the dash action. It's also +2AC and advantage on dex saving throws. If that 2AC and advantage allow you to avoid more damage, that mean more round attacking (and less damage = less chance to fail a concentration check, even with war caster do enought and you are bound to fail one eventually.
Dismissing Haste is easy on a theorical character like on your show, where the ennemy are nicely lined up waiting for your character to slice them up. My DM like to scatter them (so I cannot ut fireball them all)
Then hold person/monster? allowing the entire team to do all critical hit on the target? does your shadow blade does more damage then shadow blade?
As for weakness, remember you are still just a d6 HitDice wizard. so if you get hit by a few attack/AoE you can quickly go down. your dex saving thrown isn't that great (+5 if you got a 20 dex) your constitution saving throws isn't that higher neither, so poison cloud spell, cone of cold, fireball work great against you. If you cannot see the target cast the spell (use an item like a staff or a wand, sorcerer with subtle spell, or target siply around the corner so no line of sight etc...) you cannot counterspell it,
Remain at range, the Bladedancer abilities are all focused around being in melee, so if the target is at range (or flying) you are force to drop shadow blade to get flying and reach them, or to revert to a normal wizard (still bet class in game) and shoot range spell without any tradition benefit
Absorb element only have a limited amont of eleent it can absorb, so you can bring different elements
A comment on Absorb Elements. I think many people misunderstand this spell. The spell gives Resistance (which is 50% damage reduction) regardless of what level it’s cast at. The level cast only affects the reflected damage. So, the spell doesn’t only absorb 1d6, it absorbs 50%, quite good and scales very well for a 1st level spell.
you're absolutely right - I should've given more time to that instead of just focus on shield. I also failed to mention the nice little bump in damage it gives you as well :).
It does not absorb 1d6 damage and confer a 50% damage resistance. You gain 50% damage resistance to the triggering type of elemetal damage, correct. The 1d6 comes in the form of damage added to the next melee strike you make. This 1d6 increases by 1d6 when upcast, but it does not further reduce the damage you take.
@@joshraney5723 Yes. That's what I said. In the video, he mentioned that it only absorbed 1d6 damage. I was correcting him that it is 50% reduction, much better than a flat 1d6, especially at higher levels.
You remind me so much of myself... Just optimize it all. I think you can actually do this in Adventurers League, you must first buy the shadow blade as a scroll and then copy it over... A recommendation for your channel to appeal to more people is to append your guides with a few minutes of adventurers league adaptations!
I like that idea - I've never done an AL game myself, as I have a regular group I enjoy playing with, but I'm sure there would be some strong appeal - thanks for the tip!
@@DnDDeepDive The additional restrictions are sure to push your optimization skills even further. I believe a new season and its associated rule changes are coming out in a week or so. I recommend waiting on this to see what restrictions are imposed for the next season. Good luck with your channel and enjoy getting lost in thought!
Nice video!
I have indeed an ideia of a build that peeerhaps could do even more damage?
Have you tried to crit-fish (elven accuracy+19-20 crit range) and then double smite your enemies (Eldritch+divine smite). That could be even more bursty with hold person/monster.
I was thinking about a champion 4/hexblade 5/paladin 2/shadow sorcerer 9 kind of build, GWM feat and half-drow for extra darkness and faerie fire paired with Devil's sight invocation.
Would be super fun and nice burst - I built this one more with sustained damage in mind - i.e. reliable damage I could count on every round without spending a lot of resources, but double smite would hit *hard* on a crit!
I have never liked playing a wizard...but this one looks fun! Thank you!
Cool video/build. The only small problem I had with the build was the dual wielding which you addressed mostly in another comment. Something to remember, on top of not being able to dual wield a rapier and short sword together, is that you would only have proficiency with one of the two weapons. So, if you wanted to dual wield you would either have to pick short sword proficiency at level 2 or just pick rapier and forget about dual wielding. You could get around this by being a non Aereni High Elf as then you would have Elven weapon proficiency, or by multi-classing. Two spells I would highly recommend checking out though are the level 5 spell Steel Wind Strike and the level 6 spell Tenser's Transformation. Both are very cool and fit the Bladesinger well. A final thing to consider would be starting out as either a level 1 Fighter, for weapon proficiencies, hp boost, con save, and dueling/dual wielding fighting style, or a level 1 Rogue, this is actually what I did for my character, for a ton of skills, expertise, weapon proficiencies, and an extra 1d6 damage from sneak attack which can be applied to booming blade/green-flame blade or your shadowblade attacks. Anyway, sorry for the long comment. I really enjoyed the video and keep up the good work.
Thanks - all good suggestions! I love what multi-classing brings to the table for bladesingers, I just hate delaying those higher level spells and extra attack :P.
Something for your consideration. If you are really leaning into the melee aspect of this build, with your 7th level spell selections, with one of your choices try picking up.....Simulacrum. By having an extra "you" to control you double up on your ability to concentrate on certain spells. So while you prime can wade into battle with shadow blade, beta you can concentrate on Haste for Prime. This will give you double movement, a +2 bonus to your AC, and a sweet extra attack for your shadow blade.
In addition, because of this benefit (Pre Tasha's release and I imagine at least at certain tables) you would be able to cantrip booming blade and still make an attack with shadow blade in the same round of combat.
There are a few other minor tweaks here and there that could net you more overall dps with this particular build. I have a similar build to this, but instead of bladesinger I went with Abjuration Wizard. It yields a very hilarious playstyle and an exceedingly tanky wizard.
Yeah I didn’t want to lengthen the episode too much by getting into all the options with higher level spells, but needless to say, there are lots of great ones - your DPR will generally be better with animate objects, tenser’s transformation, and simulacrum, etc. All good suggestions!
great video thanks for sharing, one thing i noticed nobody else metion is the 6th level spell tensers transformation which blew my mind.
You endow yourself with endurance and martial prowess fueled by magic. Until the spell ends, you can’t cast spells, and you gain the following benefits:
- You gain 50 temporary hit points. If any of these remain when the spell ends, they are lost.
- You have advantage on attack rolls that you make with simple and martial weapons.
- When you hit a target with a weapon attack, that target takes an extra 2d12 force
damage.
- You have proficiency with all armor, shields, simple weapons, and martial weapons.
- You have proficiency in Strength and Constitution saving throws.
- You can attack twice, instead of once, when you take the Attack action on your turn. You ignore this benefit if you already have a feature, like Extra Attack, that gives you extra attacks.
Immediately after the spell ends, you must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion.
Tenser's is great, for sure. I plan on doing a 2.0 episode in the next couple of weeks to update this for Tasha's and go more in depth on what you should be doing with your spell slots/concentration after you hit level 7 (hint: it's no longer use Shadow Blade :) ) and Tenser's will for sure be part of the conversation!
I played a bladesinger in a recent campaign and i'm kicking myself for not using shadow blade after seeing the numbers. It gets a bad rap from some people but I enjoyed playing nearly every minute of it.
I could switch out to a bow, as an elf, for a stealth mission and thanks to decent dex actually hit with it. I had spells for when I needed to blow stuff up and best of all I had an ac of 20+ most rounds.
Stuff like that combined with the fact you are full spellcaster really let's you interect with all aspects of the game not just combat. If you can't find a reason to do something as a blade singer you are playing it wrong.
Great videos been on a tear watching them. Keep up the good work.
I know you focus on dpr but have you considered doing a series for tanks? I know it's harder to quantify what makes a good tank but I think it would be good for those of us who like to tank up a few enemies while our team mates dish out the damage. My vote would be Bear Totem barb/moon druid with gnome race for the advantage on magic saves.
Glad you're enjoying them! I do have two tank vids so far, one on the Bear Barb and another on the Paladin - check 'em out! And yes, Bladesinger is amazing. Sadly, the reality is that, once you hit level 9, Animate objects becomes a much better use of your concentration for pure DPR, unless you run into something with a very high AC and/or resistance to non-magical damage. I still love Shadow Blade though and use it when I don't have the spell slots for Animate Objects :).
With Tasha's coming out and the class being open to all the races as well as being able to move ability increases what do you think would be the best race now? I was thinking maybe hill dwarf for the extra health? Or would variant human or elf still be the best? Half elf probably gets better as well for being able to move the +2 and increase dex, con and int.
I think it will depend on whether or not free feats are available to all, and if "Elven Accuracy" (or its renamed equivalent) will be... I'm not super clear on either point (mostly because I've held off on reading up on the "leaked" details, preferring to wait for the actual release). Ultimately, Elven Accuracy will probably dictate, since the build is so often getting advantage...
So the math on Haste isn’t that far off of Shadow Blade. Especially if you are in bright light. In bright light haste vs AC 10 is 31.95 vs 32.7 and you get a +2 to your AC.
Flaming sphere if you upcast to level 3 is 36 dpr if everything hits vs 36.5 if everything hits with shadow blade. Flaming sphere also pushes the booming blade to trigger. So depending on the situations one route may be better or at least as good as Shadow Blade.
Does this maths include the blade singer change that allows you to cast booming blade on bonus action
@@frankieyuen9363 yes. Attack action 1 hit with short sword 6.5, booming blade 20 if they move, extra attack from haste 6.5, bonus action attack 3.5. (36.5)
Vs shadow blade 2 attacks with shadow blade 16.5 +16.5, bonus action attack 3.5. (36.5).
The difference is you get more damage from Crits with the shadow blade. So it has a slight edge. But on a creature with 45 hp it would still take you two rounds to kill it with either set up so the difference of one or two dpr doesn’t really matter a whole lot.
Shadow blade wins with damage but haste gives you the +2 to AC so balance that how you will. Haste also comes with the risk of being stunned for one round if you lose haste.
@@davidjohnson4657 ok thanks for explaining the maths real help since I’ll probs play one next
Interesting concept with Flaming Sphere - nice find. I wonder though - the spell description says that anyone *within* 5 feet of it at the end of their turn takes damage. To me that would indicate that, if you ram it into your enemy that's standing next to you as your bonus action, you would then be within 5 feet, meaning you'd need to move back, risking an opportunity attack. I wonder if that's the correct interpretation...
@@DnDDeepDive Hmm, I think the sphere has its own space so it does not share the space with the creature, like a 5 foot beach ball that is on fire. So you stand in front of the creature, the flaming sphere is behind it. So you end up 10 feet away from the sphere. I looked for a sage advice to confirm but couldn't find it so there is some room for interpretation there.
I didn't figure out how to combine the damage calculation of DC/save for half with the weapon damage yet. Need to spend some time with excel.
Shadow Blade in dim light still comes out ahead but in bright light or cases when the flaming sphere could damage multiple enemies it could be better. That is why I love the bladesinger so much. Great DPR and AC plus the versatility of a wizard.
Race: Elf or Half-Elf (Bladesinger is Elven tradition), Eladrin(+1 int and Misty steps) or Aereni High Elf(Fill out rogue role in party)
Equipment: Gold buy. Spellbook, rapier, short sword, leather armor (Possibly a trap)
Stats: 15 Dex (17), 15 Int (16), Con
Rec Spells: Booming Blade, Firebolt, Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor (Better than leather armor until studded leather +1 at the cost of a spellslot), Find Familiar(Owl)
Level 2: Bladesinging
Level 3: Misty Steps, Mirror Image, Shadow Blade
Level 4: Feat - Warcaster
Level 5: Upcast Shadowblade, Fireball, Counterspell
Level 6: Extra Attack
Level 8: Elven Accuracy
Level 9: Upcast Shadowblade
Level 12: ASI (Dex)
Level 13: Upcast Shadowblade
Level 14: Song of Victory
Level 16: ASI (Int)
Level 17: Level 9 spells, Wish etc etc.
Unfortunately, unless your DM bends the rules, you cannot use a short sword and rapier for 2 weapon fighting. Both weapons need to have the light property, which is why you see a lot of scimitar or short sword wielders.
Correct! Hashed this out in some other comments.
I built a War Mage: Mountain Dwarf, Wizard (War Magic). All my spells were pretty much devoted to buffing me. High STR and CON, Medium INT. Low DEX , WIS, and CHA. As Mountain Dwarf I could wear Medium Armor, as well as get the AC bonuses from my School of Magic.
What are your thoughts on starting with 15 con (15 dex / int / con) and then picking up resilient: Con instead of warcaster?
Not sure why I never saw this before, but I actually recommend that in my 2.0 version just posted this week :P.
This Video is exceptional! Outstanding!, thank you!
You're welcome - glad you enjoyed it!
Good content! Keep up the nifty work Colby
I gotta say, this definitely scratched off what I need. a wizard who can just weave in and out of battle with magic and swords is just fantastic! I definitely will be using this in my next game!
Excellent! Glad you liked it ;)
I do love this build!
Familiars increase your passive percseptionn by 5 using the help action.
Bats have blindsight to protect from invisible foes.
My alternate "bladesinger" is a divine sorc lv 3 and lv 17 Warmage. The bonus to saves and quicked/split spells along with spiritual weapon and shadow blade give me amazing dps. And in the long run gfb or bb do greater damage than just shadow blade even with 2 attacks.
Also an alpha 3 attacks of shadow blade at lv 3 is crazy...
Add illusionist bracers to this build and the sustained damage is ridiculous.
I suppose it depends on whether or not they move (or have an ally within 5 ft. for GFB) after, and what level you're upcasting Shadow Blade at... at 17th level, assuming you're using Shadow Blade as a 7th level spell, you'd get 5d8 for the initial attack, plus 3d8 for the booming blade attack. Obviously you'd be better off with just 2 attacks in that case unless the target moved... I do like the Sorc dip for Spiritual weapon and quickened spell, I just hate delaying the higher level spells and the level 14 Bladesinger bonus, but yeah, Booming blade then Quickened spell Booming blade would be devastating (if not sustainable with 3 levels of Sorc...)
@@DnDDeepDive the illusionist bracers make it sustainable . And lets you have 3 rounds of split spells to boot.
We rarely get to lv 15 in our adventures tho. So I kind of build them with that in mind..
Your build definetly feels more fun and powerful.
Our campaigns tend to go against a lot of spell casters and the Warmage defense abilities combined with the favored by the gods ability makes it more survivable for me.
@@shirak8 When I played this character I ended up getting a cloak of displacement... between that, mirror image, shield spell, and an innately high AC (plus a cleric that basically always kept divine shield on me), I was almost unhittable :). Sooooo fun!
@@DnDDeepDive UA Metamagic feat is a thing. With a permissive GM a Variant Human Bladesinger (or an Elf if everyone gets a free feat) can get it at level 1 and not sacrifice an ASI slot.
@@destroyerinazuma96 Would love to start with a free feat as an elf :) - once a day Quickened Spell would be *really* nice on this build.
I subscribed thanks for the pleasant video
This one sounds very cool! Jedi wizard!!!
Is it bad that my character who I thought was very well optimised is doing half the damage that bladesinger is doing if my maths is correct? At level 9 my barbarian rogue is making 2 attacks with advantage and 2 sneak attack dice for a dpr of 28 vs an AC of 16.
Hey man - sorry I haven’t responded to the email - I just read it and I like the build. Lots of versatility. That said, yeah, it’s really hard to compete, Damage-wise, with any build that doesn’t use either GWM or sharpshooter. The only reason the Bladesinger can get close is because Shadowblade hits so hard. The greatest weakness for Rogues is that, while sneak attack is good, they only get it on one attack per round, which is why it always feels to be like, if you’re trying to optimize their damage, it should be done in a way to try and get big bursts, usually at the beginning of combat (ideally with surprise). Barb levels give you lots of things like grappling, damage resist, etc, which are great (it’s not *all* about DPR), but without access to *multiple per round* big hitting attacks, they’ll typically fall behind in sustained damage.
But if you’re having fun playing the character, then you should absolutely continue doing so! They are viable and have plenty of strengths :).
@@DnDDeepDive thanks for the response. Yes I am having lots of fun and he is partially a tank and a grappler rather then focusing on dpr. Was cool to follow your method for calculating dpr though. His damage should scale pretty well as he gets more sneak attack dice. Looking forward to taking quarter damage against big hits with resistance and uncanny dodge.
I thought rapier doesn't count as a light weapon so how can you use a shortsword alongside it? Don't both weapons have to be light?
Feat : dual wielder
@@ihsanabdurrohmannashrulloh1915 I know but he never mentions giving up an asi for it.
@@StarKnightZ You're right of course - the reality is, you are only without shadow blade for such a short time (levels 1 and 2) that I tend to forget that the rapier isn't considered light, only a finesse weapon. So yes, at levels 1 and 2, you'd be dual wielding short swords (or, more likely, casting firebolt from afar just to stay alive). The rapier would come in to play later when you are high enough level to cast animate objects, using that for both your bonus action and concentration, using the rapier for two extra attacks in melee.
@@DnDDeepDive Ah that makes sense, thanks for clearing it up for me. I'm gonna try out your build starting from level 1 next month! I'm pumped!!
Stark night let me know how it goes - hope you enjoy it as much as I have 😉
First off, love your videos. Second, love the 2.0 video. Third, I have to say that longbow would be better for an eleven blade singer until level five than a firebolt, which gets mentioned a lot.. Only until level five though. I know this is really minor difference, but I love the flavour of being a badass with a bow on top of being a melee fighter. Given that, can you think of any ways to augment bow attacks at range and higher levels before we enter melee range and engage bladesong? The only thing I can think of flame arrow but by then a firebolt is already better and doesn’t waste a spell slot.
Thanks! Yeah, not really outside of taking feats like crossbow expert and sharp shooter, but that's a heavy investment that I'd probably only make if I were planning on staying with ranged throughout the character's career...
@@DnDDeepDive currently my DM is using the dungeon dudes starting stats 17,15,13,12,10,8. I chose a high elf and I put the 15 into Dex (+2), 17 into Int (+1) and Wisdom is my dump stat. I will really on my familiar for perception cheques and hopefully not starve to death in the woods with my pathetic survival roles. I’m eagerly awaiting Elven Accuracy at 4th followed by maxing out Dex and Int at 8th and 12th.
I like the idea of sharpshooter. With a longbow and a fly spell you could do a lot of damage from a 400’ above. Also, I greatly appreciate your dedication to replying to all comments. Don’t beat yourself up when you can’t do it anymore, your videos are awesome, you are going to get A LOT more popular before you even know it.
wait you can't two weapon fight with a raiper right ? in raw ruling it's not a light weapon
correct! Been hashing this out in some other comments :).
How much can you squeeze out of the Tiny Servant spell?
Haha.... "Fools!".
How does the new SCAG Eratta affect this? Is this build basically dead now?
Nah - it didn't depend on twinned spell, obviously, and the Warcaster/Booming Blade loss, which is sad, was never part of my DPR calculations. It was definitely a "nice to have," and I'm a little confused at the nerf, but it's not a huge loss. Opportunity attacks weren't something you were going to get a ton of anyway, and when they come, you can still make them with your Shadow Blade, you just can't use Booming Blade too for extra damage.
@@DnDDeepDive Yeah I was mostly worried about the Booming Blade+Shadow Blade loss. But it sounds like you're saying thats not a big impact to overall DPR. I thought it was still a good chunk of it.
Does the updated 6th level bladesinging feature improve DPR in anyway? I don't think it will but maybe I missed something.
Yeah I'm very confused why this errata came out now FIVE years after SCAG came out. Thanks for replying to my comment!
@@PakmanPulse Of course! :) - I think it probably will be a DPR bump, but to be honest, I've only heard the rumors and haven't spent a *lot* of time digging into all the leaked details - I'm pretty sure I'll need to do a post Tasha's "Bladesinger 2.0" episode after the book officially comes out next week :P.
@@DnDDeepDive I look forward to it!
J. Crawford comfirmed you can still use booming blade with warcaster for OA. twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1326596181560942593?s=21
If you roll for gold you can’t add your background gold.
Uh is this canon?
Awesome video, thanks for the tips, I really like how you built this around shadowblade & Elven accuracy.
What are your thoughts on taking a fighter 1 dip at lvl 1?
The con saves, fighting style & second wind + hp seem great for early survivability and later for warcaster saves, but it does delay your progression...
Thanks! Every time I think about/play this build, I always want to take a 1 level Fighter dip for all the reasons you state. It's just so hard to wait even longer on that extra attack (which already doesn't come until level 6) and the higher level spells! That said, it's absolutely worth considering.
@@DnDDeepDive thanks for getting back to me - was able to join a campaign at lvl 7 this week, ran your build but w the 1st lvl fighter (just bc I came in at a perfect time for it, 6/1 split)....
Totally understand why you said you felt like a god, I wasn't hit once across 3 battles with monsters of 19 and 20 AC, and missed only a single attack the whole session, averaging like 40 dpr while everyone else was getting smoked lol - very excited to get to that 5th level shadow blade :)
@@valmoisand Nice! You know, playing this right now at level 11, and the saddest thing about hitting level 9 was that I knew I should be using Animate objects instead of Shadow Blade for my concentration :). Don't get me wrong, Animate Objects is also a lot of fun, and if the enemy has resistance to non-magical attacks (or a fireball for you coins) it doesn't work as well, but otherwise, the damage is just better, and I'm sad not having my lightsaber anymore - lol.
@@DnDDeepDive 100% understand, my DM let me wall flip into an attack to kill a drider yesterday and I totally felt like an elven jedi.
Will def hit you up as I lvl up for that sweet optimization advice 😁
Odds are good this is just an issue of pedantic semantics on my part! If so, totally ignore this. If not, I may see an error.
Are you backing out the chance to crit from the chance to hit? For example:
* If you have a 50% chance to hit (hit on 11 or higher)
* And if you have a 5% chance to crit ....
* Your actual chance to hit is 45% because 5% of that time you got a critical hit rather than a regular hit. You miss on a roll of 1-10, you hit on a roll of 11-19, and you crit on a roll of 20.
I'm reading your description of the math and I am certain I don't see it. It doesn't really matter if the description lacks a tiny dumb detail as long as the math includes it. I'm looking at the math in your spreadsheet and I don't think I see this represented.
1-(((15-(5+1))/20)*((15-(5+1))*((15-(5+1))/20))
Your graph's level 6 damage va AC 15 shows 41. I ran my algorithm and I got 34.34. The first time I ran it I accidentally included offhand dexterity modifier damage and didn't decrease the die size and I got the same 41 you had (41.595). As I went in to correct for the offhand damage on the shortsword I realized, this shortsword isn't the shadowblade. It wouldn't have advantage due to darkness which would rob this attack of both advantage and the elven accuracy bonus. (my errors that lead me to your number: included dex modifier on offhand, rolled 1D8 instead of 1D6, included advantage and elven accuracy on a shortsword that doesn't inherently get advantage in dim light)
That dropped the average damage per swing of this attack from 7.949 down to 2.45. (from 1D8+3 with elven advantage, down to 1D6 with no modifier to damage and no advantage or elven accuracy)
This also dropped the full round's damage from 41.595 down to 34.34.
This still compares favorably to a greatsword wielded by a halforc with great weapon fighting style and great weapon and an ASI into strength for an extra +1 to hit and damage. That version would output 10.668 per swing dealing roughly 21 in a regular round and roughly 32 on any round when they get their bonus action attack for great weapon master. The blade singer is still poised to deal almost 7% extra damage per round (which sounds like a lot ... but it's about 2 damage per round)
This also means that virtually any 6th level character with two greatsword swings and the fighting style and feat can match the damage output at level 6 assuming the bonus attack does trigger, and assuming shadow blade concentration is never lost).
Now, what this damage output doesn't do is take ANY chance for losing shadow blade into account. Even with a bonus to your concentration and advantage on the roll it's possible for it to drop even in the first round (just like it isn't likely but it's possible to miss even with elven accuracy and +7 to hit AC 15).
I’d be happy to share my JavaScript files for this stuff with you.
It may be possible to duplicate the functionality in something like Google spreadsheets. Most of the math isn’t very hard. I’m not sure how to do all of it in there though.
For example to calculate accuracy I do use a random number generator to roll the die in question hundreds of thousands of times. Then tally those up. In the case of the Halfling if the original roll value is 1 it will trigger a reroll and only the second roll is tabulated.
That gives me the odds that a given number will be rolled on a D20. So, then I calculate the hit chance and back out the crit chance and you have an idea for how many attacks out of 100 would do a regular hit of damage.
Calculating damage isn’t too hard. You need four version of each weapon damage die. No modifiers, great weapon fighting style, savage attacker feat, and both great weapon and savage attacker feat. Then you use the average result of that die and multiply by the number of dice and then add in the modifier. Each source of damage is calculated separately so if you have a slashing sword that has extra fire damage and also radiant damage you can track each of those separately to take residence and immunity and vulnerability into account. The half orc racial just requires you to look at each die involved in the total attack and take immunity and the rest into account then use the one with the most benefit (so a 1D12 great axe dealing fire that also does 1D4 radiant damage would leave the halforc doing an extra 1D4 radiant damage to the fire immune source … but only on a critical hit).
At some point I’ll build a front end for it and serve it from a backend. That will let anyone type in numbers and pick options to calculate the damage for an attack. Right now it’s just the raw functionality.
How do you feel about the control shadow cantrip? I think it's a must have for a bladesinger
I'd love to see an updated video on my favorite 5e class!
coming soon!
How does the bladearmor no-armor requirement thing work with warforgeds' natural armor?
I encountered a problem: it's so squishy. Can you do an Eldritch Knight version of this build? Quick question though, would it be better for an EK to dump Dex rather than Str?
Will take a look! That said, having played it to level 11 so far, I'll say that I'm tankier than most of my teammates - between a high dex, mage armor (or studded leather+1), and Bladesong, I'm typically running a 21 AC , which I can bump when needed to 26 with Shield spell. Between that and Absorb Elements/Mirror Image I almost never get hit and if I do with magic, I can make myself resistant. Works great!
Also, assuming Heavy armor, prob Dex dump imo.
If my halfing swashbuckler dies in TOA, I'm planning to come back as a Bladesinger (but also eyeing Eldritch Knight). I think dumping STR on EK and focusing on DEX (rapier) would be how I built it. 14 DEX and using medium armor probably.
@@DnDDeepDive was thinking taking Toughness could help with squishiness? I'm thinking a Bladesinger, and taking toughness will increase their HP to be equivalent of a single classed fighter, more or less, depending on CON.
@@MarcusArtorius More HP is always good! I'd personally want to max Int for the bump Bladesinger gets to both AC *and* damage (after level 14), not to mention DC on their other spells etc...
Add Paladin Smite to Shadow Blade. BOOM BOOM upto + 5D8 Radiant Damage, on each attack. Also I heard you can use Great Weapon Master on any melee attack to get an extra Bonus attack so no need for a short sword...
I believe the extra attack would only come if you crit *or* get a killing blow - granted it would happen somewhat regularly and would be much stronger than a short sword with no bonus to damage, so worth considering. I love the pally smite idea I just... can't bring myself to delay those high level spell slots, extra attack at level 6, adding bonus damage to each attack at level 14, etc. etc. :).
@@DnDDeepDive this works well with Hold Person / Monster, which gives an automatic crit, but then you cant cast your shadow blade.
@@DnDDeepDive Hey i have a build for you based on the new changes to Blade Singer from Tashas Couldron. I use War Magic from Eldritch Knight to get another attack after the Cantrip is cast giving 2 attacks and Cantrip every round.
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12tc0L6pyw-GNlCdWNeE7URj-L3bhbhObYg8Es8eD95o/edit?usp=sharing
@@nickfallonphotography3764 I couldn't get into see the doc :). But I'm assuming you'd be going EK to 7 and Bladesinger to 6, yes? so this would theoretically kick in at level 13? It's definitely interesting, but keep in mind that, RAW, you can't use Shadowblade with Booming Blade anymore... also, these two statements from EK and BS seem to be in conflict - from EK: "Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action." and from BS: "You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks." It seems like the one kicks in when you use your action to cast a cantrip, and the other when you use your action to take the Attack action. I can definitely see a DM allowing it, but it *seems* like RAW you have to choose one or the other... Still, I like the way your brain is going here :).
@@DnDDeepDive Yes but you can hold a Rapier in your off hand, and cast booming blade on it. Pick up 2 Weapon Fighting, Booming Blade is an extra 3d8+3 at 13th lvl. You should be able to see it now.
Sadly no more warcaster + booming blade once Tasha`s comes out.
:'(
@@DnDDeepDive but on the flip side I think at level 6 bladesinger can now chose 2nd attack or cast a cantrip, so reactive damage is nerfed, but direct damage on your turn is a bit higher now with greenflame or booming. I haven't seen the exact wording of all bladesinger changes, so we'll see.
@@Tyrgoth99 this change could also allow a double wielder bladesinger to attack three times in a turn in lvl 6, one of those attacks being a SCAG cantrip. Or even better, just wield one weapon, attack twice (one of those being a booming blade) and use your bonus action to attack with a flaming sphere. Now the target needs to choose whether they move on their turn and take the extra damage from booming blade, or stay in place and take extra damage from flaming sphere. It's straight up evil
@@quetzalcoatlus1892 sadly, no. Casting these cantrips is an action. Which means at level 6 it would replace the two attacks. So oddly enough these cantrips become situational for bladesingers. But for another single melee attack caster (cleric) they are still pretty powerful. No more spell sniping with a polearms, or hitting mooks with boomingblade reactions when they move away.
@@Tyrgoth99 didn't the new bladesinger from Tasha's got the option to replace one of the attacks of the attack action with a cantrip?
Quick question. Shadow blade and blade song are both bonus actions. Which do you do first in a fight if you are not able to prep?
*great* question. As much as it pains me (because I'm usually so anxious to get into the fight), I'll typically start my Bladesong first, because the bonus you get to concentration saves is big and it *really* sucks to go Shadow Blade first, then before round two take damage and lose Shadow Blade lol. Plus AC bump from it is important, and, as we all know, a dead Bladesinger does 0 DPR :). My first round of combat is typically (depending on how many spell slots I have) Cast Mirror Image (or throw a fireball if the enemies are grouped up nicely), start singing, then round two is summon Shadow Blade and attack.
D&D: Optimized That was my guess regarding blade song first. I like the mirror images also. Need to keep those limited HP. My character is a level 2 fighter and level 2 BS. So my HP are not a complete dumpster fire :)
@@bryankia Nice - dueling fighting style (or two-weapon) combined with action surge make shadow blade that much more powerful! I just hate delaying my higher level spells and, especially, extra attack and song of victory, so I can never bring myself to multi-class...
D&D: Optimized Long story short I am “evolving my character”. He was a 3rd level battle master and I asked the GM if I could go in a different direction. We decided on selling one level back of fighter and adding 2 levels of BS. I will have the option to sell the other two levels of fighter back. Not sure what I will do. That said at 4th level I sure which I had the shadow blade....
I had a realisation: a swing of Shadow Blade(3rd level) would be 3d8+mod psychic but 3 shortsword attacks would be 3d6+*3*mod piercing damage. Which would prolly make Haste slightly better? Or more consistent at least.
Well, keep in mind that Haste just gives you one additional weapon attack. Both the Shadowblade user and the haste user get to make an off-hand short sword attack if they want. So Really haste is just 2d6+8 (assuming 5th level, and that we took EA for free at level 1 with Custom Lineage) compared to 3d8+4 - 15 vs. 17.5. Advantage Shadowblade. And, of course, if you're fighting in Dim Light or Darkness...
loved this video :)
Thanks!
Spirit Shroud is the new go to instead of Shadow Blade, it is much stronger when upcast. Only issue is advantage.
Hm... let's see... Shadowblade+Shortsword off hand at level 6 = 6d8 for shadowblade (2 attacks) + 1d6 for Shortsword (Bonus Action) = 30.5 on average if everything lands (not counting Dex bonuses here). Spirit Shroud would be 3d6 and 3d8 for all of your attacks combined, for a total of 24 if everything lands. The problem with upcasting, is that it only gets bumped at spell level 5, and at level 5 you should probably be using Animate Objects unless the enemy is resistant to non-magical attacks... but let's say they *are* resistant to non-magical attacks, in which case a 5th level Shadowblade would do 8d8 total (two attacks) plus 1d6 for the off hand for 39.5 total damage, whereas Spirit Shroud would be 3d6 plus 6d8 for 37.5. Still off by two. What am I missing?
With the errata Bladesinger's can cast a cantrip with extra attack, replacing one of their attacks. GFB and Booming Blade doesn't work with Shadowblade, although you may be able to handwave that. Otherwise you would miss out on a scaling d8 damage, plus it's potential for secondary damage. You also forget the possibility of magic weapons, while not as good as advantage, can make a difference.
Spirit Shroud isn't great at 3rd level, it's a spell that really shines when upcast. It will beat out Shadowblade when upcast to 4th - simply because Shadowblade doesn't scale at 4th. The difference being 7 average damage - 37.5 vs. 30.5, and goes up by 4.5 with a SCAG cantrip.
Upcast at 5th level is +3d8 to all your attacks, so with extra attack and bonus action attack that's +9d8 - meaning 44 average damage, compared to Shadowblade's 39.5. With a SCAG cantrip the difference goes up to 4.5 and 9 damage respectively.
Neither beats Animate Object, but very few things do. There is potential however with Contingency and Haste, letting Spirit Shroud upcast to 6th - assuming 18 dex, two shortswords - with one at +1, and SCAG cantrip - that's 2d8 + (4d8 x4) + (1d6+5 x3) + (1d6) = 110 average damage. Animbate Object would be around 78 average damage if upcast at 6th, but for less resources.
Shadowblade is still best at 2nd and 3rd level, even if you can't cast SCAG cantrips with it.
@@Vatis93 Yes, wasn't considering the BB/GFB "buff" (feels like a red herring but only because it doesn't work with Shadow Blade which makes me sad :) ). But I think you might be misreading the way it upscales: it goes up 1d8 for every *two* levels above 3rd. So at 5th level it's an extra 2d8 per attack for a total of 6d8. That said, I think the new summon spells might be even better... check out Summon Fey or Construct cast at lvl 4...
@@DnDDeepDive Ah, alright - I see. My bad. I didn't account for the change from UA to Tasha's. I'm looking forward to your take on summons in that case.
@@Vatis93 I’m finding a lot of things changed that I didn’t catch on my first pass :)
When I look at the tier 1 sustained DPR the damage I see for the Bladesinger that is the new 2.0 with custom lineage or the normal elf one? We don't allow elven accuracy with custom lineage in my group
Good question and reminder - I haven't yet updated all of the numbers on the spreadsheet to account for it, though admittedly I don't *think* it will have a huge impact on Bladesinger, but it will bump it down just a titch.
Thank you!
Hexblade is by far my favourite but I think this might give it a run for its money
Don't forget that shadow blade does not stack with booming blade now. Would love to hear your thoughts and update on that situation 🙏
Indeed - it is a tragedy! Planning on doing a 2.0 sometime in the near future, but honestly from levels 3 to 8 you're probably just making 2 attacks with Shadowblade instead of casting a cantrip (the cantrip thing is only optional). I *think* you can use your off hand short sword to booming blade opportunity attack (via War Caster) if it ever comes up... I can't think of why you couldn't, at least. Once you hit 9 your concentration goes to Animate Objects and you booming blade action with a rapier. Stay tuned for details :)
@@DnDDeepDive Intriguing! Sure do look forward to that!
@@DnDDeepDive Another interesting option is Mobile, possibly instead of warcaster. You get 50 feet of movement, poke 1-2 targets that wont get AoO against you while you move in, stike and back out again. You will more or less be a swashbuckler, only better.
Pair this with other character with sentinel and your own booming blade and you will get hit way less. That of course helps with concentration and defensive spell management.
And perhaps flaming sphere is a good substitute for shadow blade?
Jeremy Crawford commented on this. And this may not prohibit shadow blade and booming blade. “This change has nothing to do with prohibiting or allowing Shadow Blade to combine with Booming/Green-Flame Blade. It's about fixing those two cantrips. As DM, I'd allow those them to combo, since I make liberal use of the rule on improvised weapons.”
Consult w/ your DM. Happy singing.
Crawford’s comment seems to indicate the change to a weapon worth 1 sp was meant to prevent the weapon from being substituted with an arcane focus or component pouch.
Not sure how you could sub out the weapon and still have the spell work but D&D players are creative.
Am I missing a step here? Why are you able to dial wield a rapier and short sword? A rapier isn’t a light weapon. Loved the video otherwise! Great work.
Thanks! And no, was a brain lapse that we've hashed out in other comments :P.
@@DnDDeepDive You're welcome. I appreciate the quick reply, sorry for wasting your time I didn't see any comments mentioning it, guess I didn't look hard enough.
@@daniel-z9q2f no worries! Glad I have people double checking and keeping me straight :) ps version 2.0 of this build is out tomorrow and I talk about this little errata.
Would Doom Stalker Ranger work as a multi class option?
Hm... I assume you mean Gloom Stalker? I can see some synergies, though I personally prefer to play my Bladesingers as straight Bladesingers, so as not to delay extra attack, higher level spells and spell slots, etc. Unless, perhaps, you were most interested in Burst/Nova damage, but in that case I feel like a Fighter dip might serve a little better...
@@DnDDeepDive it's actually refreshing to see a mono class build not requiring multi class for optimization. I see that as truly optimized.
@@dominicdwk ha ha - don't get used to it on *this* channel :P
Doesn’t the Pol Mas lock still do more dmg?
I absolutely love your guides, man. Just discovered your channel. Are you taking into account the number of fights per day with these things? DMG page 84 days 6-7 medium to hard fights per day.
Most tables play “wrong” and do so accidentally. This unintentionally makes players stronger and makes enemies feel weaker.
For example the blade song you get starts with 2 uses per day. You have that for 6-8 fights. Meaning you get it for 25-33% of encounters. That’s the intention. That AC is outstanding. But, you aren’t designed to have it for more than half of your encounters until you get +4 proficiency bonus.
Thanks and welcome! Right, I explain this a little better in later videos, I think, but generally, when I crunch numbers for "sustainable" DPR, the threshold is that they are capable of doing that level of damage for *at least* one entire combat encounter per day. I appreciate that that's a very low bar to set, and *most* builds are capable of hitting those numbers for multiple encounters per day. Very few, however, are getting up to 6-8, and the reason for that, I think, is, like you said, the fact that most tables (based on what I've read and polling I've done amongst my audience) are typically only seeing 2-4 encounters per long rest, with 1-2 per short rest. That's how it's always been at our table as well. So, yes, if your table is seeing a lot more than that number of combats per day, then the Fighters of the world get a lot stronger (though Barbarians, by contrast, tend to be in the same boat as spell casters in that scenario, since they are limited on Rage use).
@@DnDDeepDive I hear you. I built a tool that does damage calculation. It determines accuracy for about 13 different conditions (from Halfling reroll on a 1 to disadvantage and every combination). And it covers damage modifiers (from great weapon fighting style to savage attacker feat).
When I compare damage output I calculate damage per swing. Assuming 100 attacks on the same target and combining average hit, miss, and crit damage taking accuracy and crit chance into account.
I tend to calculate the damage you can expect to deal per swing and then look at what resources you have to spend to maintain that.
For example at level 3 the blade singer doesn’t have enough second level spell slots to cast the shadow blade in every fight. When you compare that to a greatsword wielding character that feels important. If you assume 7 fights per day the disparity grows.
I think it boils down to consistency. If you make your numbers totally consistent it feels like the safest comparison.
@@DnDDeepDive totally looking forward to diving into your spreadsheet! I don’t know how many of me there are. But, I’ve gotta be your target audience. 🤣
Shadow blade gives a 2d8 damage during your bonus attack and attack action in the first round. What about the second round of combat, can it still be used in bonus attack action?
Actually, you summon it as a bonus action, and from that point, it's your weapon and functions essentially like other weapons. So the first round you summon it, you'd make your attack(s) with it as your action. From there, each turn you'd just attack with it using your action, and do something else with a bonus action (most likely an "off hand" attack with a short sword, etc.)
@@DnDDeepDive of you are using booming blade you can't off hand attack.
Sorlock. Nuff said.
Not really, you didn't make a case for it at all.
Why are you buying this stuff? Wizards can't use the weapons or armor (yet) and need a spellbook and other things that are expensive. The standard stuff given will give them a spellbook, a pack, a dagger or a quarterstaff and a component pouch or an arcane focus. Their background will give them other stuff like clothes and cash. A gold buy will give them 4d4 x10 GP, which might not be enough to get everything they need. Wait to buy stuff you need at second level after you have earned some money.
I find the blending of cantrips and spells under the heading spells to be annoying. Even now I don't always recognize the difference in the writeups.
The whole "spells" category is really inadequate for Wizards. Do you mean spells in the spellbook or spells prepared?
Why purchase armor? Because you can get an AC of 15/18 without spending any spell slots, OR you can get an AC of 16/19 for eight hours by spending a spell slot. That is too high a price at low levels.
I would take Elven Accuracy and save Warcaster for 8th level. Increasing your Dex to 18 and giving you three d20s to roll when you have advantage seems to be better for a melee character. You can sheathe your shortsword when you won't be Bladesinging.
As far as having a hand free to cast spells, have you ever heard of sword knots?