Loft conversion without steel beams
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- Опубликовано: 23 июл 2024
- How do you support a loft conversion without steel beams? Discover multiple options using Glulam, LVL beams, timber truss, timber box beam and lightweight steel truss. In this video I discuss each option and show how it works to support your loft floor and rafters.
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The way you explain the concepts and use the model as you are doing is brilliant. Thanks very much and I really hope you continue making these videos.
Thanks Liam - much appeciated!
@@RobindeJongh what graphic software are you using. love the way you move elements around to demonstrate the various options.
Thanks. Interesting video. I like the idea of the truss and ply faced box beam.
Hey Robin!. great video to illustrate the other options.
I'm a Structural Engineer and I particularly liked the site built steel angle and timber truss options.
Thanks Tony!
In one rough cut garage from 60+ years ago, it's a regular wood framed wall studs, and as you showed with plywood, it was done with boards. 1x8" boards. Both sides. Rows and rows of wood. I'm amazed at the strength of a beam, created with nails, and wood, where it's boards nailed to studs.
The only consulting engineer I knew who would even consider all timber loft conversions, said he would usually recommend timber box beams, for most of our local needs. Most CE’s don’t like to put their names to timber conversions because of the” difficulty” of calculating the strength of the project. Lightweight steel !! my Engineering mate has never heard of it !! What it is is”keep my professional indemnity safe at all costs”. don’t get me wrong ,the guys I know have given me a lot of good advice over the years !
great videos Robin and very informative for the layman. looking forward to more videos. Personally hoping that you delve into basement conversions/ excavations! maybe look at underpinning vs benching? Don't see many of those in the UK!
Galvanised steel C section. This is a light weight material and provides a degree of rigidity. For a longer run this can be premade in shorter sections and bolted end to end with welded in plates on the abutting ends and M12 bolts as the fasteners. or with fish plates. Galv C section can come in a variety of dimensions. It is already used in industrial buildings or sheds... some years ago I helped my uncle (in Aust) build an 80' by 40' (10' at the eaves) galv steel structure which became a six bay automotive workshop with two extra bays for parts storage and office space.
The whole thing came in premade sections that bolted together... It did get exciting bolting the roof pitch sections together and then with a single bolt attached to the opposite uprights swinging them from hanging down in a shallow v to upright in the shallow ^ shape. diagonal bracing at each end bay on both sides and long wooden purlins bolted in provided the rigidity needed to withstand the winds in the flat plain area the workshop was located. The corrugated galv roof then of course fitted to the roof purlins. The roof went up and on first then the galv trimdeck profile walls afterwards. with one end concreted firmly at the base of the posts it was quite easy to square up the posts for each bay and concrete in. The interior concrete floor was poured afterwards and helicoptered and floated off. Still standing some 30 years later.
Our engineer just had us run the new loft floor joists from the external wall plate to a mid way point where there was a load bearing wall and the same from the other side and then the stollage walls were built up from the floor joists. There was no need for any steels or Party Wall Agreement. There is also another system i beams made from metal/timber which is very strong and lightweight for long spans.
Great videos! Im embarking on an attic conversion for my timber frame semi-d
Been thinking about doing this for a while to get more use of the wasted space in my loft, before seeing your video was working along the lines of the ply walls etc as ease of access for material, not an engineer but been in the building trade as a chippy for too long now.. Great videos only came across them by accident... Pleased I did...Thanks
Thanks for visualisation of your knowlege. Very informative.
Very interesting video. I did a similar thing a few years ago in a loft where the roof was a full hip but made with trusses. I put uprights in at 400ctrs on the double girder trusses then 18mm staggered ply to the face effectively creating a 6ft high beam which was the full length of the roof. All the ceiling joists were hung off this. I was a bit nervous cutting out the existing truss members and had laser measure to ridge after each cut. Fortunately it didn't drop even by one mm.
Very cool! Thanks for sharing 👍
😱
Thanks Robin, really useful. we have similar trusses in our roof- thick timbers on the floor and at hip height, with diagonal timbers running along the eaves. we do however have 2 cross beams resting on the trusses -about 4ft high. to remove these and use the space, what additional supports would we need- ideally in timber? the house was built on 1906, and the floor joist are 7in thick.
also to add a staircase up to the loft, are 6.5in joist ssufficient as trimmers?
Great videos thank you, I’m trying to weight up between ecoloft and the above options, how much as an engineer would you charge to do specific workings for a loft converstion. Trying to weigh up all costs incurred against the ecoloft system. Are we talking hundreds or thousands for the drawing work and workings? Not asking for an exact amount just a rough idea on what you would charge for this. Thanks
Thank you Rob, you answered most of my questions. I'm really interested in plywood, timber option. Do I need structure engineer to design this? . Would it allow to construct some storage cu behind?
Hey this is such an informative video. Great content. I wish i had seen this before i began the loft conversion journey. With UK timber prices going through the roof, i do have some S. American wood available to me but not sure how they convert over to British standards like C16/24. I have an excel sheet with approx. 25 species. Do you know where i could find this information?
Great video, many thanks Robin. A future video on how the beams should be let into the gable walls would be interesting, considering such things as: Beam expansion/contraction, pad stones & slip membranes, and gable bracing and restraint from the beam. Also for a conversion with simple dwarf stud support does the plasterboard provide the diagonal restraint? (And in that case how does BCO consider and check that). Solutions for long span roofs would be a good video. Also another video just on non converted truss roofs and building them properly would also be great in your you tube format.
Thanks John. Great suggestions!
Thanks so much! I have a Victorian terrace with purlins. I saw a steelless conversation on RUclips where they had a triple timber beam on top of the central wall and then they laid deeper joists between that central beam and the front and back walls of the house. They doubled up the roof timbers and installed timbers from the purlins down to the floor. Does this seem like a good solution in theory? Thank you
This is fantastic, I love the alternative options to steel!
I was wondering if you would be able to do a calculation and design for a box beam for my loft conversion?
Many thanks.
Hi Sean. Submit some details on this form and I'll see if I can help: forms.gle/R9QMY3zu4AMDe6r86
Hi ! Robin interesting video how do these methods compare against the Eco-Truss system please.
Thank you Robin for great video.
Is their details on how to tie the top beam to the diagonal timber?
Does the ply faced box beam have to be attached to gables. Thanks . Enjoyed your video. DIY fanantic
Hi Robin, I love your videos, thank you for sharing them. Please can ask, if I used the timber truss method instead of steels would I need to knock holes in gable walls to position the top and bottom timber beams? And would those beams need to be one beam to cover the full length or could they be joined? Thank you
Hi Robin great video , tried hundreds your is the first I can understand easily
Question if I put in the trusses as suggested , does that mean I can remove the internal roof supports ( diagonal)
All best thanks Ian
Good video Robin, what software you use for sketch?
Great graphics and explaining concepts. Building control has other ideas sometimes and so do structural engineers, risk adversity seems to be key.
Yes, generally people want to use the tried and tested details. Some of that is to do with "real" issues, some of it imaginary.
I was hoping to convert the loft in my three storey Victorian house but have found out I would need to change all the doors near all the stairs to fire-doors, plus have a corridor made from the bottom of the stairs to the front door. Is there a way around this? It's not listed but it could be in time.
Hello Robin, I have used light gauge steel roof framing on pair a of New build semidetached cottages ( 10 years ago) Similar to eco joist, except that most of the construction is already in panels. By a company called U-Roof (Yorkshire). We are now about to build a detached version (i.e. one half but extra gable end wall). The structural engineers say the deflection rules have been tightened. Thus we would have to put in a 203x203 steel beam ( 6.1 m long), which I hate the idea of! There was no problem with "floor bounce" in the two cottages. I am searching for a solution. Would welcome your thoughts. Have lots of photos of the previous construction.
Great video
Nice video, it would be helpful if you used pics along side the vid to show how these steels and timbers are fixed together to the beams. Eg screw placements, bolts, brackets.
Thank you so much . could you please advise what in your opinion is the cost effective best way to build a loft . i live in a terraced house looking to convert my loft and stuck between whether to steel beam , telebeam or traditional route . i just find the traditional route quite cumbersome and feel like the steel or the telebeam is the way to go . Could you please let me know your thoughts . cost wise would have imagined there is no much difference anymore between steel , aluminium and timber ?I am in London .
I was wondering if you had done an episode where the roof was taken off including all timbers and new trusses built that would enable a loft conversion to be fitted ? The reason is the old trusses do not give enough headroom to enable a conversion. It maybe that the original outside walls be raised slightly and a hip to gable structure be undertaken.
Hi Robin, thank you for your extremely helpful videos. I have learnt so much from you so far, and keep learning the more I watch. As a self-builder, I was looking for an alternative to universal steel sections that I could lift up to the loft on my own. I have seen that flitch beams can be used in some cases. Do you think these could provide an equivalent amount of strength to universal beams or do you tend to sacrifice too much vertical space? (Just for reference our maximum span is 3.6 metres).
Hi Peter. A flitch beam is a good choice but provides less strength than a UB or UC section for the equivalent depth. However, if it is laterally restrained then it is excellent - see ruclips.net/video/xDddwHq68QE/видео.html
I’m really intrigued by this video, thanks. As an alternative to a steel UB, how strong do you think an 8”x 3” C24 timber, with lightweight 201x65mm C section bolted either side be (similar to ecotrus’s method)? Almost like an inverted flitch beam. If this could be spliced, perhaps with an interlocking scarf joint in the timber, and offset bolted fish plates on the steel, it could be a game changer for roof purlins and ridge beams.
It shouldn't cost you a lot to get some calculations done, and then you can see if this is effective for what you need. Let us know how you get on!
What sketch software are you using? It looks really good.
Hi Robin, great video. For the fabricated truss design, would the welder need to be coded to pass inspection or just a compentant welder?
Hi Jordan. Everything would need structural calculations and to be passed by UK building control. Steel has to be Excecution class 2, I believe, which means for site welding you would need to be coded.
Hi. Would you be able to do a dormer without steel ridgebeam.
Presumably you could also bolt a timber wall plate onto the top of the steel angle to tie it to the rafters so that you wouldn't have to tie this back in the eaves?
Hi Robin could we use timber beam as the ridge beam for a dormer roof? Thanks for sharing this alternative option but I think it's probably easier to have 1/3 rd spliced steel beams for ease of installation if a complete length is not an option for some.
Hi Asif. Yes, I think a spliced steel beam is still the best option for most people. I have seen timber beams, box beams and timber trusses used for ridge beams. Buckling needs to be overcome.
is possible we can lift up the loft roof only the portions we are making for use.
have you done a video on supporting and removing a chimney, currently planning our own loft conversion and the party wall side has a chimney to remove , wish i had your cad skills
I haven't done a video on removing a chimney yet - but it's a good idea. Essentially you will need a steel beam to support the stack you leave in, unless you remove it entirely.
great videos - really useful...are you using Sketchup ?
Great info Robin. Would you consider covering a loft conversion where the pitched roof at the front of the house stays the same, but the back becomes a flat roof from the ridge ?
Thanks, Martin. Yes, I hope to do a dormer in future.
Robin de Jongh
Hi Robin, if the loft conversion is already as depicted within your video, but then you wanted to add in dormer Windows but closer to the outside wall, could you use the process described here to create another bracing point between the existing brace and the wall plate ?? Thus allowing the dormer wall to now be supported on the new brace. Assuming the maths are worked out correctly this would then allow for the original brace to be removed.
Hi my roof has trusses which is like a M how do I make space in the attic removing the V in the middle and making it strong . My walls are all low bearing . I don't want to open up the roof but would like to make the roof stronger do it doesn't come down once the V is removed. Can u help thanks
Hi,
Very useful tutorial Robin,
I have a lift 10m by 15m. I'm willing to converted to a habitable area.
I'm structural engineer, but I don't know how to sort it out.
Appreciate any sort of support
i have 3x2 ceiling joists in my loft spaced about 14in apart and i want to board it out for storage but want to strengthen the floor , i was thinking about screwing 3x2 on top of the existing 3x2 to add strength making them 6x2 does this sound ok , or is doing a criss cross method better +
Hi. Generally if you want to create a composite member from two members, you will need to use a glued joint also, with screws to keep the two surfaces together. Would be better to go with 6x2 next to them. Criss cross method not recommended as it's nowhere near as strong.
does anyone know what software he is using to demonstrate in this video?
Very interesting 👌
Do you have to create a new floor coming off the beam or do you brace to the existing floor? Thanks for the informative video.
Yes, you usually create a new floor suspended from the beam.
Hi Robin great video. if I were to create a loft conversion using timber I.e the plywood box method; is it possible to have a splice/join somewhere along the span (the building is 8m long) it would ideally be done using steel but access makes it very difficult. Thank you
Or is it possible to add some sort of flitch beam in between the timbers?
Hi Michael. Yes, a truss or box beam can be spliced, usually at third points. The splices would need to be structural engineer designed.
I have done a similar thing you are asking using a double girder truss then plying it. Theoretically you could make and use the dwarf walls as your beams if you build the end section into the blockwork or maybe even on hangers. Make them from timber with smallish ctrs (300 or 400mm) then its just a case of creating yourself a glulam beam by fixing enough 18mm ply to it. One downside of this method is you lose all access into the eaves as obviously you cant cut a hatch opening in it without compromising the strength.
Hi Robin quick question. I worked for a company installing metal structure systems into lofts and have left and wanting to go on my own. However not using so much steel. My question is would it be possible to use c section steel to run the length of the loft to build the stud walls on or does it have to be I beam? Thank you and great videos
Hi. It all depends on the loadings, thickness and shape of steel, and whether it is held in place or can buckle. You could probably make up a compound section of two or four c-sections.
What program are you using here? Im an engineer and would like to plan a dorma on my house but cant find a suitable program to use. Also, Love your video's
An excellent video just a quick query usually the floor joist aren’t strong enough for a floor whats the solution for that do we have to put a steel beam for floor joist with hangers still ?
Hi. The new floor joists are shown here in green, and would be supported by the truss/beam going gable to gable.
What was the drawing package you were using, it looks quite quick to use?
I've read few more responses sketch up pro!!!
Hi Robin, is it possible to construct the gluelam sections in situ using timber and epoxy at all?
Hi Ian. Interesting thought. Glue is usually toxic so I wouldn't want to use a lot of it in a confined space like this.
Please what software do you use for your 3d modelling? I like the presentation of the models, it looks hand drawn.
Is there a way to build the beam in the attic from smaller parts? - it seems you suggest so via steel i Beams that can be spliced (or welded) to form one large beam.
Can it be done with wood? (or does the wood truss still require a full length single beam piece on the top and bottom of the truss)?
Hi Jon. A timber truss can be installed in seperate pieces, as can a steel truss. The connections need to be carefully designed.
I know this is 2 years old, but still it's a good video showing options I hadn't even considered. I have heard of another option though, called a "Filtch Beam"? From what I understand it's two timber beams sandwiching a steel plate with bolts through holding them together, which could be used in place of an RSJ?
Hi Dave. Yes, this is a form of steel beam, and can be a good option.
What software are you using to make your sketches? I am a electrical engineer, but it was a close choice between it and structural engineering. As I a person who loves to build things I love watching videos because you keep it technical,yet simplified enough that anybody could understand it. Thank you sharing knowledge with the world!!
Thanks - much appreciated! The software is sketchup pro, see bit.ly/3uyOUpd
Hi Robin, I am due to have a two story side extension fairly soon and after watching your videos on loft conversions which I’m planning to have in the future (I don’t have the budget after the side extension) and I’m starting to think it would be a good idea to ask the builders to install steels into my existing loft (and new loft above the extension) whilst they have the scaffolding up and would essentially block the side of the house making it difficult in the future. Would I still require an SE if all I wanted for now was the steels installed and the trusses left in place?
Hi Simon. Yes you would need calculations, because it's possible that later you will find that the steels weren't right, and then you would need to replace them, costing you even more.
@Robin de Jongh Thanks Robin, makes sense, we had just paid for SE calculations for an open plan kitchen so I was hoping I wouldn't need to again, but definitely better safe than sorry and spending more in the future. I've really enjoined watching your videos by the way. They have really helped me with my extension plans.
Hi i had a loft conversion done a number of years ago which has left the steel exposed in the rooms below. It's boxed off but looks unsightly.
The ceiling is quite high in rooms below & windows are fairly large but dropping ceiling would interfere with the window space.
My question.
Is possible to make window space smaller to accommodate lower ceiling .
Hi Howard. Yes you can. Get a detailed reply here: geni.us/askrobin
Hey Robin
Thanks for your reply & for getting back so quickly about lowering ceiling to cover loft steel
My house is timberframed house and almost everyone told me I need steel beam for attic conversion, but now one company came with quote which is almost twice cheaper than others and they said that they don't use steel beams for doing this attic conversion, and they already did about 10 others. My concerne here is what are my risk? Can my roof fall down or house loose structure? :S
Out of curiosity is simply replacing the ceiling joists with suitably sized engineered (I or webbed) joists an option?
Hi Alex. Not usually, as the depth would be prohibitive to headroom, and you would also need to support the roof somehow.
Can a gluelam beam be manufactured in situ in the loft? 🤔
Hi Robin could you do a dormer conversion which retains as much head height as possible? or how you can gain height i.e lift ridge or lower ceiling
Very good idea, Stephen. Headroom is the no.1 problem usually.
You would require planning permission to raise the ridge.
Hi will This work 35mm wide joice ?
Lovely Man
What drawing software do you use? It looks quite easy or you make it look easy.
Hi Chinedu. SketchUp Pro. It is quite easy, and I also make it look more easy than it is 😀
Hi Robin, i am about to convert my loft diy style and i am closely following your suggestions for supporting the roof. My question is I've been asked whether i am cross bracing my existing loft floor joists and i didn't know this was something that needed done. I've been told it's as simple as screwing cls across the way from one to the next at staggered intervals almost like a shed floor. Is this going to significantly strengthen the floor or is there a better way to do this? My loft is about 7m long x 4m wide.
Hi Scott. No this would not increase the strength of your floor. All it does is spread the weight around, but your floor covering (plywood or chipboard is already doing this. It's a common myth though!
@@RobindeJongh thanks Robin.
Great video, my builder said it would be impossible get 6 meter beams into my loft.
He did however say he could bring in 2 x 3m beams and join them.
Should I be worried?
If the beams are steel, then you should only be slightly worried.Steel beams can be joined at third points usually, not in the middle. If it is a timber beam, then you should be very worried, yes.
@@RobindeJongh thanks for getting back to me. This is what has been proposed:
• Installing four new 9x6 steel beams jointed in the middle with 15mm plates
• Adding on additional 7x2 timbers to the existing roof rafters to compensate for removing the existing trusses
• New 7x2 roof collars which will create the ceiling
• Erecting new load bearing stud partitions on top of the steel to take the weight of the roof
• Installing new 9x3 floor joists every 400 centres
• laying osb structural plywood on all floor area
• additional structural plywood on stud load bearing walls for extra strength
FYI - My house is a 5 year old timber frame house.
Thoughts?
Hi Robin, interesting video explaining the different options. Would love some more calculation design based videos. Spliced connection (hand or quick joint) including detailing, bearing details (padstones/steel plate) plus any other design checks when doing a loft conversion. All the best 👍🏼
Thanks Cory. That's great feedback. Perhaps one explainer video a month and then 3 calculations videos would be a good mix. What do you think?
@@RobindeJongh that sounds good to me. So like a high level over view and then a deep dive into the more detail design elements. Sounds a perfect mix to me
@@corytierney9318 great idea - so the high level one would form the basis for a few detail design tutorials to follow it.
Hi Robin, I would love to do a loft conversion on my house & your videos are a massively helpful source of information along with watching “build it with Rob” as well. One of his recent videos shows him making his only “laminated “ beam which I thought was a fantastic idea, is it feasible to do this & have it structurally strong enough to be used as habitable floor structure. I have a 2x5 joist running from party wall to gable wall & was wondering whether that could be the “meat” of a timber sandwich by bolting some heftier 2x6 or bigger to the original beams & pocket the ends of the additional timbers into the party wall & gable effectively bulking up the original beams to hang a new loft floor from. If the concept of feasible I would commission a structural engineer to calculate it. What’s your thoughts?
Hi. Sounds interesting. Do you have the link to the laminated beam video?
@@RobindeJongh here it is,
ruclips.net/video/co4oD-n6erg/видео.html
It piqued my interest because I thought if it’s a feasible thing to achieve i could do it myself by bolting several lengths of 2x6 or bigger together, sandwiching the main beam. I did message ecotrus about the strength of it for a habitable floor but they suggested using their ecotrus steel beams.
Hi Robin, I was wondering whether you had had a chance to view “build it with Rob”s video yet & what your thoughts on the feasibility of beefing up an existing beam to support a habitable room floor are?. I look forward to hearing from you.
Cheers
Hi - it looks like three 6" timbers bolted together, which would not be sufficient for a normal loft conversion with habitable space.
@@RobindeJonghthanks again for your response. I did ask them about that & they said the same, I was wondering wether it would be a viable or possible option to beef up an existing beams to to make them suitable for a habitable floor. I would pay for a structural engineer to do all the necessary calcs but I would need to know if it’s a viable option before I commission one.
Cheers
How do you do the calculations? Where would I find resources for that.
Hi Joseph. I have numerous videos on how to do calculations, although a loft conversion is well beyond the capabilities of most non-structural-engineers.
Nice software
Could this be achieved just my making the ceiling /floor rafters thicker and then sistering them ?
Possibly for the larger floor load, but you would still need to find a way to support the roof also.
@@RobindeJongh The roof I have is unusual in that it has a 60 degree pitch so the bending load is not so great .My plan is to cross brace the rafters about one meter down from the apex effectively reducing the rafter length by a third .The ceiling joists are 4x2 .I am going to piggy back 6x2 s on to them so they effectively become 10x2s and then sister on a 9x2 on every third rafter.I think this would be able to take the load of a dwarf wall.
Hi Robin, interesting video. I am in a new build and want to convert my loft into a storage area, this would involve removing the “W” trusses but most people say it can’t be done with wood.Anyway someone has suggested similar to your ideas in this video only difference being cripple studs are used in the rooms below to support the oxter walls thus taking the load down. Structural engineer is confident it can be done. Perfect world I would rather we didn’t need to open up a channel in each of bedrooms below. Would be interested to hear your opinion on this ?
Hi. My reservation with providing timber support below the ceiling (if that's what you are suggesting) is in case a future occupant removes it. People tend to think timber stud is automatically non-structural.
@@RobindeJongh Hi Robin , yes that’s what I’m suggesting. Would be interesting to see if the structural engineer could get it to work without the cripple studs - EG using the ply or similar material on the oxter walls thus not disturbing below.
I have done a similar thing you are asking using a double girder truss then plying it. Theoretically you could make and use the dwarf walls as your beams if you build the end section into the blockwork or maybe even on hangers. Make them from timber with smallish ctrs (300 or 400mm) then its just a case of creating yourself a glulam beam by fixing enough 18mm ply to it. One downside of this method is you lose all access into the eaves as obviously you cant cut a hatch opening in it without compromising the strength.
Would you need to support the roof towards top too? Right at the tip of the roof
You would need collar ties in most cases.
Hi, Do you do loft conversion structural calculations?
S
Hi Shane. I do, though I don't always have space for more consulting work.
Very interesting. I don't believe that you mentioned that the beams should be supported at either end by building into the masonry walls as some viewers may believe that the ceiling joists can support the roof load on their own via the box beam and alike.
You are correct. I always assume a beam or truss is supported at the ends, because that's what a beam is, but it seems this is not obvious to everyone. I will make that clearer in future. Thanks for the heads-up!
Excellent point. Really feel that this would not be obvious to lots of people.
For the upper beam, how is it connected to the roof timber? Do you cut out a slot in the roof timer for it to rest under?
Hi Robin! Excellent video as usual. Can you make a short video showing the structural options of a loft conversion where the existing loft is constructed using king post trusses? I’ve had an alleged structural engineer look at mine, scratch his head and tell me that it can’t be done!? I’m sure you will dispute his claim! 😆👍🏻
Hi John. Thanks for the compliment! Yes, there's always ways to go about a loft conversion no matter what the existing support.
Great video. John, I wondered if you had any joy as I have the similar issue. A King post and diagonal props below rhe purlons which we are trying to remove without steels (we are trying to avoid the expense and hassle of party wall agreements that the steels would bring) Cheers, Jason
I used flitch beams in mine. Dont know why their not used more often.
What computer application do you use?
Hi Emily. It's SketchUp Pro: bit.ly/3uyOUpd
When u do the timber trust one at 5 mins do the timber have to be all one piece.
They do, but your structural engineer might be able to design a splice connection.
@@RobindeJongh thank u.
What the software your using
SketchUp Pro geni.us/sketchup
can anybody tell me what is the name of the application?
Hi. It's sketchup pro geni.us/sketchup
none of these solutions work for me. But loved this video
Can I do a dormer without steel ridgebeam
Hi David. Sometimes you can use a timber beam if the span is small enough. For larger spans there are alternatives such as flitch beams or box beams.
💥Get my timber floor joist span tables here: geni.us/timbercalculation
Hi Robin, all of the chord members (rafters and ceiling ties) would also need reinforcing, as they will in the vast majority of trussed rafter roofs the chord sizes are far lighter than in a conventional cut roof structure. As you are removing the triangulation of the trussed rafters, this is effectively what you are left with. Also the beams / support trusses assembled on site would need to be designed to deflect less than the original truss design, to ensure there isn’t settlement of the roof onto the walls below. As the trusses have already deflected into their designed deflected state you should consider jacking the rafters and ceiling back up to their pre loaded position to ensure the beam / girder is taking the permanent load and deflecting no more than the original design when the load is released back onto it. I have been designing trussed rafters for over 40 years so I do understand how they work. Only fully qualified personnel with a comprehensive understanding of timber structure design should be engaged to do this kind of work. If done wrong and not signed of by a recognised designer, it could leave your house insurance null and void if you were to have any issues in the future. Be very careful.
Hi Aidan, thanks for the valuable advice. I agree, any of these options would need full calculations by an experienced chartered civil/structural engineer, or under supervision of the same.
❤
what about using flitch beams?
Hi Dean. I agree that's also a good option.
@@RobindeJongh i guess that would be using steel though, which was the whole point of the video!
@@RobindeJongh there is something beautiful about flitch beams though, a perfect compound solution which harnesses the strengths of wood and steel.
Flitch beams are a good alternative to heavy steels but seem to be little used
Hi Andy, yes flitch beams are great but would be heavier than steel I-beams.
@@RobindeJongh are they? Really? I have used 50 X 200 timbers with a 10 mm steel plate between and it was far easier to install and handle than a equivalent 5m steel. I think it was also lighter. Certainly since all components can be lifted up separately the individual components are lighter
@@andykostynowicz Hi Andy. Yes, there is definitely a case to be made for Flitch beams.
No chance you'll be getting full length members up through the loft hatch, and even if you do, impossible to install as the beam is longer than the space between walls (as it needs to extend into the walls). We've run the calcs on box beam solutions and bearing/shear at the supports is problematic for all but short spans. In reality, steel beams are nearly always the most sensible and cost effective solution - especially as they are easy to splice. If you want to take the structure up through the loft hatch, a steel beam, spliced into 3 pieces is the only practical option. Finally, regarding restraint of box beams against lateral torsional bucking, the rafter is already doing exactly that far better than the brace you indicate would.
Hi Martin. I agree, steel beams spliced into three is nearly always the best way to go, for the reasons you stated 👍
Structural engineer, who uses sketchup.
... This is extremely rare. A welcomed change!!!
Just found your channel Robin in the last couple of days. I'm a revit power user and I'm very impressed with your videos Robin. Do you have an email address..?
Hi Mark. Check out the contact form here: forms.gle/H38VVqDW5xDYu3ja7
At 17:53 the vertical thin wall wants to bend IN THE MIDDLE so why is the support piece to prevent buckling attached TO THE TOP? Thanks.
Also I am not sure why some long beams are easier to get up inside the building than others - unless it is because some are wider - is this going to make that much difference? Maybe in a tight squeeze place. But even the last one, the thin steel one, even that needs to get up the staircase & 'round the corner'. Also, why remove a BRICK and not a ROOF TILE if you have to get it in from the outside?
Can’t find a engineer who will do it without steel all want steel when I have supporting walls it’s a nightmare one end is into brick where neighbours are and other in a hip part of the roof
Hi Andrew. If you have architect’s drawings, email them and we could probably design it for you.
@@RobindeJongh I do have architect drawings I’m currently awaiting a reply for a guy and then I’ll let you know who can I email please?
if all these options why are people always using the steel beams?
The dormer roof may be lighter in weight, so you could potentially reduce the loadings.
Glue lame. Suffering delamination .....
Not one of your best vids Robin. Any structural engineer worth his salt would design splice joints in universal beams at one third centres. UB’s sections would be easy to lift up into the loft via the proposed stairwell opening. Never seen any of the other methods you discuss in 25 years of designing loft conversions.
A lot of people want to avoid steel, so here are some options. Of course a steel can be spliced, and usually is, but the design and fabrication increases cost.
@@RobindeJongh I just don’t see how you would overcome the problem of getting long glulam beams in if you can’t get UB’s in Robin. These, firstly are more expensive and secondly difficult to join along the length. You vid starts by clearly pointing out how difficult it can be to get steels in which is where I’m coming from. UB’s all the way for me mate. Take care.
He s just exploring other options , surely you have a big ego as a builder mate. positive criticism is welcome though
@@py_tok5589 I’m not a builder ‘mate’ I work in the same sector as Robin. The options he discusses have buildability issues and I picked up why he was looking at other options when he said long lengths of steel can be problematic to install.
@@paulbrigham9287 you cant even upload a video, old fashion guy, go to facebook where surely you must belong to