The intangible sensibilities of someone who had grown up in a certain culture / country creating the media is what is missing in many games that call themselves JRPGs but are produced by people from elsewhere. For example, Jackie Chan and Jet Li have stared in a number of Hollywood films doing what they do best, but you could never call those movies Hong Kong action movies.
@jsteimel This is why I personally don't use the terms Western or JRPG. They're too vague to provide any clarity of what the actual game is. I just stick to the subgenre descriptors.
Tactical/Strategy and Classic Turn-Based are definitely my personal favourite sub-genres of RPGs. There's a couple of ones on this list I didn't even think about or realise which could fall under the RPG umbrella, but it's so cool to see so many different kinds!
My favorite of the following genres: Tactical: Unicorn Overlord Real Time Role Based: Xenoblade DE Monster Taming: Monster Sanctuary Traditional Turn Based: Ruined King
I’m giving you a like simply for praising FF6 - one of my all time favorites. It’s a great list too. I don’t think I’ve seen a video like this grouping all the different RPGs into useful categories.
LOVED these sub genres and this topic as a whole. Also I was positive that “Western Shooting RPG” meant the Wild Arms series and I felt like an idiot when you finally said Mass Effect 😂😂😂
A funny story about the Chinese food joke. In Korea, there's a dish called Jjamppong, which is marketed to other Koreans as "Chinese" food. In actuality, it's Korean-ified Chinese food. A few years ago, I went to an authentic Chinese restaurant and noticed Jjamppong on the menu. Under it is described "Korean Sea Food Soup". Chinese people do not recognize our attempt as anywhere close to Chinese, lol.
I might've said this in a comment at some point, but I do not consider "JRPG" a genre unto itself. It's a super-category that's more about having a "Japanese-ish" aesthetic and design philosophy. It's almost as broad and vague as "RPG" itself, but JRPGs definitely have a distinct look and feel to them that is distinct from traditional Western RPGs. There are JRPG versions of just about any RPG subgenre you care to name, from traditional turn-based to action to strategy and more. The "J" part of the name is largely historical due to their origin. But in modern times you do see JRPGs being made all over the world, from Korea and China to various Western developers. By the same token, you also have more Japanese-made RPGs that do not fit under the JRPG umbrella - Dark Souls and the rest of Fromsoft's output, Dragon's Dogma, etc. I've heard the food analogy before, and it is an apt comparison. I know some people continue with a definition based on strict national boundaries, but this is wrong, wrong, WRONG! While I'm not completely against labeling say, Sea of Stars as JRPG-inspired, calling Elden Ring a JRPG is just not right.
I mentioned this in another comment, but the old definition of JRPGs describes most action and turn-based games and I feel that’s a bit antiquated. I’ve also thought heavily about the reclassification of Souls-likes as one apart from its inspirations, especially when you look at the state of open world RPGs in the West. The TLDR; is that combat in western RPGs closest to Souls-likes usually take a back seat to the build diversity that these games allow. Games like Skyrim and Outer Worlds come to mind, especially when you compare those to a Japanese made game like Dragon’s Dogma, whose combat is more interesting than those games. That’s not to say, of course, that Western RPG developers can’t make great action RPGs, as I’ve shown in this video. But the reality is that aside from the often used thematics, Souls-likes are rooted in a Japanese style design. Anyway, that’s just my justification!
When it comes to action jrpg's, I usually split it into encounter-based and seamless. Tales and FF7R go into encounter-based while Ys and Nier Automata go to seamless. The latter has no encounter transitions that significantly change the controls while traversing the field as if you're playing a traditional turn-based without the turn-based.
I definitely get the need to do something like that! From my perspective, the thought is similar to games like Chrono Trigger and Chained Echoes in the turn-based realm. Fundamentally, while there are differences in the way controls function in and out of combat, the combat style is where the common threads are based on in these subgenres I've created. THAT SAID, what complicates games in the NieR franchise for instance is the presence of OTHER types of gameplay within the action genre! I've actually been writing an action RPG specific video for months now that further breaks down everything in that genre into four buckets that I want to get done soon! I've been thinking a lot about this genre stuff for years, so I'm happy I'm finally getting around to expressing some of these ideas!
@@BacklogBattle The ability to use most of your character's skills while outside of battle as if it's like a character action game is why I like to separate them. In an encounter-based action rpg, you can't really play around on the field attacking nothing the same way with what I call seamless action rpg's. If tactical rpg's get to be separated for lacking dungeon/field traversal, a distinction between having separate field traversal to battle encounters, and having no virtual separation between the two is valid to me.
@@BacklogBattle As for Nier, since the presence of other types of gameplay only account for a small portion of the entire thing, these can probably ignored for the classification. It is similar to ff7r requiring you to play a combat racing minigame or dance rhythm game, suikoden having tactical rpg-like battles and rock-paper-scissor duels, the many fishing/card/whatever minigames across games some of which are required in the story at least once... Let's just add those as additional game modes that can be ignored in the genre but not necessarily defining them
Really nice genre classifications. I like that you have carve outs for Farming and Taming, as they both have really unique play loops and experiential goals. It's a hard topic to tackle, and I think a large part of the problem is that the term 'RPG' is just too big to be helpful anymore. Harvest Moon and Vampire Survivors don't need or warrant common terminology if genres are going to be useful classifications at all, and if all RPG means is numerical stat progression + some plot, that's more or less every modern release. I mean, aren't we just a tiny jump from Ys 8 to Devil May Cry 5 now? From Bloodborne to Resident Evil 8? I'd always thought of JRPGs as anything clearly in the Dragon Quest 1 design lineage... not as a blanket term for anything made in Japan, but that was just helpful for me, and broke down at a certain point regardless. Anyway, the only omission here for historical importance feels like first person dungeon crawlers, like Wizardry, Etrian, Might and Magic, Strahd's Possession, etc. They could sit in traditional turn-based, but they bring enough unique mechanics to the fore (mapping, location-based puzzles, etc.) that they seem like they deserve a spot and sit apart, even though they are few and far between now.
Thanks for the comment, and I'm glad you enjoyed the classifications! Truthfully, the 10 here isn't all encompassing, and the larger taxonomy I'm building even has added considerations (like an "MMO" or "Online" modifier, which are *different* by the way). I'm trying my best to figure all of the nuances out, but for the time being, I thought the ones I featured here were truly ones that I enjoy! And as someone who is currently playing through the Wizardry remake, yes, first person dungeon crawlers are definitely a category of its own!
great idea! 10. real time with pause - DA Inquisition/FF12 9. farming - no idea as I don't like Harvestella and don't play other games here. maybe make farming/crafting into one, in which case I'd put Atelier here, as well as my lil underrated gem Marenian Tavern Story 8. shooter Western RPGs - I do not like this gameplay style at all haha but I did just buy the ME Legendary Edition so maybe I will enjoy this! 7. tactical - Triangle Strategy and FE3H 6. action roguelikes - my choices are yours, Hades and DEFINITELY Vampire Survivors
Thanks for the reply! This was super fun to read! So FFXII being part of #10 is because of the fact that all of the games talked about in #5 have cooldowns. Normally, RPGs that feature skill cooldowns have that because they're either doing away with a secondary metric (like MP) or they don't want you to be able to abuse said ability. FFXII's magic and skills are mostly governed by MP, which is not so dissimilar to BioWare's games. I also surmise that Matsuno was inspired by BioWare's gameplay when designing FFXII's combat! The genres here are just a sampling of the taxonomy I'm working on, so crafting RPGs are definitely up there for me! That said, I think that there needs to be more games that push that genre forward apart from Atelier. I think Sophie 2's the best that genre's got, and more experimentations in that department are something I'm looking forward to seeing!
Oooo, this is a fun list! It reminds me why I love RPGs so much, they're so varied among subgenres, it's like a whole world unto itself. Also, I kinda came up with my own name for Xenoblade-esque combat RPGs, I do believe it was Active Time Recharge.
My list 8.Farming: Rune Factory Frontier 7.Tactical: Final Fantasy Tactics 6.Roguelites: One Way Heroics 5.Real-time Role-based: Didn't quite catch what games go here, so I'll say my favorite Xenoblade Chronicles is 3. 4.Action JRPG: Star Ocean 6 The Divine Force 3.Soulslike: Dark Souls 1 2.Monster Taming: Pokemon, generations 1 and 2 specially. 1.Turn-based: Final Fantasy 6 As I didn't put Shooter Western RPGs and Real Time With Pause, because I haven't played much of those. I'd like to add two different categories of RPGs Dungeon Crawler: Etrian Odyssey 3 Shop Simulator: Recettear
How about 1st person dungeon crawlers like Wizardry or Etrian Odyssey? I guess they can be considered turn-based, but they have a lot of unique mechanics of their own. Cheers!
A good tactical RPG that I love (though I wouldn't necessarily call it best, it's just close) but that doesn't get mentioned much is Wild ARMs: XF. I consider it to be the spiritual successor to FFT, with a solid class based system. Sadly, so far as I know, it's only been released on the PSP.
Tactical - Triangle Strategy Monster Taming - Persona 5 Royal Action - Tales of Arise Turn-based - Like A Dragon: Infinite Wealth Real Time Role Based - Xenoblade Chronicles 3 Action with pause - Baldur’s Gate 2: Shadows of Amn
This is pretty much similar to the anime vs cartoon argument. Anime doesn't necessarily have to be made in Japan to be considered an anime. While yes, anime technically just means animation, it's a term that specifically refers to a type of distinct art style/vibe imo, similar to the differences between Western RPGs and JRPGs. Anyway, very interesting sub-genres mentioned here!
This looks like a pretty good way to classify gameplay types. But don't things like art style, story, and target audience play a large role in genre too? Like with movies, a romcom is totally different from a western or a noir, even if they're the same length and meant for the same aspect ratio. Are you gonna include these aspects of genre or is it better to just keep that question completely separate and focus on gameplay?
Great video Alex! Some not-so quick picks from me: RTwP: Neverwinter Nights 2. I haven't had a chance to play BG3 yet, but as a tabletop enthusiast the robust adaptation of a system I already knew was fantastic. Shoutout to SW: KOTOR as well! Farming: Limited experience, but Harvestella is easily my favorite of the ones I have played. ShooteRPGs: Borderlands series. Couch co-op is a MUST for me in games like this. Tactical: FF Tactics is probably the GOAT here, but my favorite is SMT Devil Survivor. Where's ma DeSu 3, ATLUS? 😂 Rogue-like: Azure Dreams. If we could get a spiritual sequel to this with Hades-level story it might be my favorite game ever. Hades itself is my most played game of the decade by an order of magnitude. 😅 RTRB: Final Fantasy 12, although if I ever get around to playing the Xenoblade games I suspect one of them would take this spot. Action: Ys series, with a nod to the Mana games. Really excited for Visions; hopefully it can meet our expectations! Souls: Bloodborne. So, SO good. I argued in favor of including them, thanks for that! I could, and still might, write a novella-length treatise on all the reasons why I see them as being closer to 1980s RPGs than nearly any other branch of the tree. Taming: Nocturne is my true love here, and as a sub-genre this is probably my overall favorite, despite never having played a Pokemon! Traditional: Phantasy Star 4 is still my favorite, even 30 years and hundreds of games later. I'd definitely agree that it is the easiest place to recommend games for new players, with my choice for that being Square's 90s output (FF 4-7, Chrono Trigger especially).
I also loved Triangle Strategy for SRPGs. I'd add Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia as well. I rarely replay games but I replayed that one. For Monster Catchers my favorite hands down is Ooblets. It might be more casual than your tastes. I loved that you never actually hurt the Ooblets, they just dance battle each other! I can't go back to traditional monster catchers after playing them this way. Plus the humor is perfect, even better than Borderlands 2 for me.
Some of these were really easy, some were really hard, but this is mine. 10. Real Time with Pause - Dragon Age Origins/FFXII 9. Farming - ??? (Cult of the Lamb???) 8. Shooter Western RPGs - Mass Effect Trilogy 7. Tactical - XCOM: Enemy Within/XCOM 2 War of the Chosen 6. Action Roguelikes - Hades/Hades II 5. Real-Time Role-Based - Xenoblade Franchise 4. Action JRPG - Final Fantasy VII Remake Trilogy/Yakuza Series/Kingdom Hearts Franchise/Nier Replicant & Automata (genuinely can't decide) 3. Souls-Likes - Bloodborne 2. Monster Taming - SMT: Devil Survivor Duology/Persona 2 Duology 1. Traditional Turn-Based RPGs - FF7/FF9/DQ11/Chrono Trigger/Xenogears. (this one is impossible)
I really hope some JRPG developer out there decides to get inspired by Vagrant Story and FFXII cause I would love more games with battle systems like those. Also, almost any RPG where you don’t control the whole party would be improved by a gambit system…
I have this weird problem that I need to be in control of my whole party, so tactical and turn based rpgs end up at the top. Real time with pause I enjoy only if i can program my party like in DAO or ff12 and I wish more games had that system. Action rpgs i like only when i'm alone or the "party member" is in a minor support role such as in Monster Hunter.
Strangely enough, I don't mind not being able to fully control my whole party! And I've found that some action games do some "magic" in the background to determine how the rest of the party behaves, which is a bit much to cover in a comment. I mentioned in a different comment for instance that I actually played Persona 4 and 5 with AI party members and that was a different enough challenge that felt fun and different than being able to control everyone! And honestly, I was too lazy in those playthroughs that I didn't mind if the AI messed up a few times just so I can just mostly sit back and focus on my protag LOL
I like most the Turnbase RPG. It is Chess on a Battlefield, and i have Time to plan my next Turn. With a great Story i love this Games. Sory for my bad Englisch but i am from Austria and my Fist Language is German.
My favorite thing about JRPGs is team building where each role is critical to combat success. Can be as simple as 3-4 man of Final Fantasies/Octopath or as complex as Persona or Fire Emblem, or crazy many like The Last Remnant. Solo JRPGs like Crisis Core, MMOs, and some who has AI teammates can be a turnoff for me sometimes
I actually *like* having AI teammates! When I played through Persona 4 and 5, I used AI exclusively! It made for a fun and often times unnecessarily challenging experience, but it made me appreciate the engine more!
My favourite subgenre of RPJs is The strategic bullet hell RPJs Which I only know one game of this genre Knights in the nightmare which is probably one of my favourite games ever and my favourite RPJ please check it out if you can Also I challenge anyone to name a more niche game than this
IMO, Persona series aren't really monster taming RPGs because demons give protagonist cards so that s/he can fuse 2 different type demons to get new Persona. Rune Factory series do both monster taming and farming.
Surprised to not see dungeon crawlers rpgs, as they are their own thing. My favourites: Real time with pause: baldur's gate 2? Farming: rune factory 3 Shooter western rpgs: borderlands 2? Tactical: fire emblem (a ton of them), triangle strategy, mario+rabbids, smt overclocked Action rogue-like: hades Real-time role based: xenoblade saga Action jrpgs: ys lacrimosa of dana, seiken densetsu 3 Souls-like: no idea here... Monster taming: smt 4, persona 3 and 5 Traditional turn based rpg: ff6,7,10, octopath traveler, dragon quest 11...
F***in' RUclips auto-play deleted my damn essay. twice. Just gonna list... 10. FF7 Remake. Haven't finished Rebirth, which may be objectively better, but I feel has less pausing in combat. 9. Sakuna. Haven't played much of this genre (Or Sakuna). I do like base-building mechanics, to some degree. I'm probably forgetting something... 8. Deus Ex. (Fallouts are fine too. Not a big fan of shooting something, and for it to shrug off lots of damage, generally) 7. Gladius. (Am digging Jeanne D'arc. Played it a billion years ago on PSP but didn't finish. Gonna finish this time) 6. Hard to beat Hades. I'll mention Rogue Legacy 2. 5. FF12. I've been out of the Nintendo ecosystem for a while, so I missed Xenoblade games. I know you listed this under 10, but I think the gambit system is more real-time than pausing. 4. I adore Scarlet Nexus, but outside of that, I'll mention Kingdom Hearts. I've only finished Ys Origin, currently. 3. If I'm going off the beaten path, Asterigos. If I'm a little more mainstream, Jedi: Fallen Order. (It's not so abusive as other Souls-likes) 2. Only monster-tamer I've played is old-school Persona 3. I'm gonna start SMT V soon (vengeance arc). 1. I want to take a moment to mention Star Renegades. Really challenging Turn-based Rogue like. The fights are finite, and highly curated. The difficulties can be increased with each successful run, and are meaningful. If you really want to challenge yourself, and aren't afraid of 3-hour runs that can end in failure, try it out.
My picks for games in your genres: RT with pause - I don't have a pick for this one. I disliked BG 1 and 2, and Dragon Age Origins which is all I can remember from this genre. You have Vagrant Story in the B-Roll during this segment, but I don't recall it having elements like that. Maybe Spellforce? I only played 2 or 3 stages of it so it feels wrong to call it a "favorite" but I really got nothing else. Farming - Again, no good pick for me. I didn't like old school Harvest Moon back in the day, and I didn't like Rune Factory 4 when I tried it a couple years ago. I do want to try Harvestella, but I have yet to actually play a farming game I enjoyed. Shooter Western RPGs - Not only do I not have a good pick, I've never played one. I don't enjoy or play shooters. With rare exception, I don't play first person games either, which most shooters are. Adding RPG to a shooter is not going to help. Tactical - Disgaea 2 hands down. Love that game, need to catch up on the series. I haven't played as much of this genre as I would like. Partly because of the time commitment, partly because half the time they are just too hard for me to enjoy. The general gameplay loop is right up my alley though and there are many in my backlog. Action Roguelike - Never played one, unless you count Dead Cells or 20XX. Anyway, roguelike is in my top 3 most disliked.... mechanics? Game design paradigms? Subgenres? Whatever you call it, I hate roguelikes with a passion. Some are definitely RPGs though, can't argue that. RT Role-based - This is hard. I don't play online games anymore, but I used to be pretty hardcore into WOW circa WOTLK. Rift at launch was amazing - a better WOW than WOW at the time. FF14 ARR had a lot going for it as well, but I didn't like the combat and dropped it after running out of content. I can't think of much in the way of offline games that I've played that fit this category. I did like .hack//INFECTION (the first game) but never maintained interest to finish the quadrilogy. Action JRPG - Ys VIII for sure. Most of the Ys series is excellent. Trials of Mana remake also deserves special mention. Actually, just the Mana series in general, thought Trials is the best of them. There's a lot of great games here that could be listed. Souls-likes - Code Vein tops my (admittedly short) list of souls-likes I've played, with Little Witch Nobeta not too far behind. Monster taming - Again, not one I have extensive experience in. I liked Pokemon but grew bored of the formula. Disliked Persona 4 and SMT. I guess technically Lufia 2 has monster taming, but I wouldn't say there's enough focus on it to call it a monster taming RPG. But if you want to count it, that would be my pick. Traditional Turn-based - Of course classics like FF6 and CT deserve mention here. After some thought, I think I might give Atelier Escha & Logy the top spot. I really enjoy many of the Atelier games, and this entry is in my opinion the best. Though I do think of crafting RPGs as more of a separate subgenre distinct from traditional RPGs.
Watching this makes it feel like even the subgenres need subgenres (Hades and Vampire Survivors lumped together when they're so different). All games are RPGs. XD
Japanese style action RPGs could easily be the best genre if they nail the combat system right, they are pretty much single handedly keeping the stylish hack n slash genre alive in modern gaming but my heart broke when i saw you putting Soulslikes above them...
It absolutely does! Genres are meant to be a short-hand to give players an expectation of what they're about to experience. Imagine handing a Tales game to someone who loves Souls-likes and telling them they belong in the same genre. By the way, this *has* happened - I've gotten at least three comments saying they thought Tales was an action game like Elden Ring and were completely disappointed by it!
@@BacklogBattle I agree in principle and am all for genres being clear pointers to what the games will be like but where do we draw the line? As a Disgaea fan I know for a fact I recommended the series to FE and TO fans and they did not even think it played the same at all (being focused on character customization and loot). I am completely sure most of my Xcom fans friends would not like any grid based TRPG, yet we call all those games from the same genre. Why would it be different with Dark Souls and its adjacent?
@@nerdzone we draw the line when there is too much specificity, like calling Rune Factory a monster taming RPG as well despite it being known for farming and crafting. Genres that are too broad don’t help people either, and there is a balance to be had on a case by case basis.
Those are pretty goid distinctions. I don't play all of them, of course. I don't have any interest in Rogue-likes, Souls-likes, farming, ot (most) monster raising games. I would define "JRPG" as being created by Japanese developers. Otherwise, it would be "JRPG Inspired."
@BacklogBattle It's not a perfect definition, admittedly. It could also be argued that, perhaps, there doesn't need to be the "J" at all as the distinction becomes less specific. Dragon's Dogma, for example, plays more like a Western RPG than Japanese. I obviously don't have anything approaching a good argument one way or the other.
Genres are definitely in a strange spot, for sure. And with gameplay constantly evolving, the styles are always ever changing. To your point about Dragon's Dogma, I can argue that it plays more Japanese than Western because action RPGs in the West closest to its style (open world RPGs like Skyrim, Fallout, and Outer Worlds for example) are often criticized for having lackluster gameplay, with its action combat being less pronounced in favor of making impressive builds! And that's really what's important - is to identify the commonality between all of them and using genres to help make general sense out of all of them as opposed to being overly specific, lest it loses all meaning.
@BacklogBattle I hadn't considered that. I look at Dragon's Dogma being closer to something like Dragon Age or Kingdom of Amalur. It's not exactly the same, obviously, but it feels like it's "of a kind." As I stated earlier, I don't really have a strong argument for one way or another. It's just how I personally define it.
I would add that when an authentic chinese meal is modified to fit the tastes of the people in an another country, it loses its status of true chinese food. American pizza is nothing like an italian pizza, still it's a pizza (and not bad, it's not a difference of quality but of authenticity). Still, there are lots of japanese inspired rpg around the world, as there are lots of meals inspired from other countries or culture. But I get your point. I just think the food analogy doesn't work perfectly.
"JRPG" to me is "Japanese RPG," and not "Japanese-like RPG" or "inspired by Japanese RPG." My major criteria: 1. Recognizable as RPG; the game play should involve and be heavily influenced many of the typical RPG and historical JRPG mechanics. 2. Made by a Japanese company; at least the lead company developing the game should be. 3. The major leaders on the team are Japanese, or mostly Japanese. (Writer, software engineer, graphic artist, producer, etc.--the team's working language should be Japanese.) 4. Targets Japanese consumer as the primary or at least as one of the primary audiences. Of all of the criteria, #4 is the most important and non-negotiable: a "Japanese RPG" must be an RPG for Japanese people.
I'd go further (this is a recent change of mind, by the way). Since few of us westerners enjoy playing games with Japanese text, I'd say JRPG = RPG (if we can ever agree on what that covers!) we can play thanks to a fan-made translation patch for the text (menu text as the minimum) but retaining Japanese voice acting (if there is any). A useful category for certain retro games (if for nothing else). @Backlog Battle, I thoroughly approve your idea of genre sub-classifications across western and Japanese, regardless of origin. Though in the way that "JRPG" (your traditional ones) was once synonymous with "console RPG", shouldn't we now be asking whether games written for mobile phones require their own sub-category?
Any time people get hyper defensive about JRPGs having to be made in Japan, remind them that FF9 was made in Hawaii. ;)
@@jsteimel I think Square Enix’s CG group is still based there too!
The intangible sensibilities of someone who had grown up in a certain culture / country creating the media is what is missing in many games that call themselves JRPGs but are produced by people from elsewhere.
For example, Jackie Chan and Jet Li have stared in a number of Hollywood films doing what they do best, but you could never call those movies Hong Kong action movies.
I have always thought of it as a style of rpg rather than just made in japan
@jsteimel This is why I personally don't use the terms Western or JRPG. They're too vague to provide any clarity of what the actual game is. I just stick to the subgenre descriptors.
What a fabulous idea for a video! Loved this!
Glad you liked it!
Tactical/Strategy and Classic Turn-Based are definitely my personal favourite sub-genres of RPGs. There's a couple of ones on this list I didn't even think about or realise which could fall under the RPG umbrella, but it's so cool to see so many different kinds!
There really are a ton of different kinds out there, definitely much more than what I’ve listed here!
My favorite of the following genres:
Tactical: Unicorn Overlord
Real Time Role Based: Xenoblade DE
Monster Taming: Monster Sanctuary
Traditional Turn Based: Ruined King
You are a distinguished scholar and gentleman, a professor of RPGs
i feel like dragon quest monsters are so underrated when it comes to the monster taming genre
Well that's a cool notification to get! Can't wait to watch this Alex! 🎉
I hope you enjoy it!
@@BacklogBattle LOVED it! Very similar tastes, that's for sure 🔥🔥
I’m giving you a like simply for praising FF6 - one of my all time favorites. It’s a great list too. I don’t think I’ve seen a video like this grouping all the different RPGs into useful categories.
Thank you so much! Be sure to check out some older lists too - they're just as thought provoking and interesting as this one!
LOVED these sub genres and this topic as a whole. Also I was positive that “Western Shooting RPG” meant the Wild Arms series and I felt like an idiot when you finally said Mass Effect 😂😂😂
@@yochrisnelson a part of me thought about this, to be fair
So accurate. There's a ton of genre bleed over these days. Makes it kinda confusing to sort things out at times.
A funny story about the Chinese food joke. In Korea, there's a dish called Jjamppong, which is marketed to other Koreans as "Chinese" food. In actuality, it's Korean-ified Chinese food. A few years ago, I went to an authentic Chinese restaurant and noticed Jjamppong on the menu. Under it is described "Korean Sea Food Soup". Chinese people do not recognize our attempt as anywhere close to Chinese, lol.
Tactical RPG squad where you at!? 👀
That’s right! Where y’all at?!
I love this video. Such a cool concept! I'm with you, nothing beats those traditional turn-based JRPGs.
Couldn't agree more!
I might've said this in a comment at some point, but I do not consider "JRPG" a genre unto itself. It's a super-category that's more about having a "Japanese-ish" aesthetic and design philosophy. It's almost as broad and vague as "RPG" itself, but JRPGs definitely have a distinct look and feel to them that is distinct from traditional Western RPGs. There are JRPG versions of just about any RPG subgenre you care to name, from traditional turn-based to action to strategy and more.
The "J" part of the name is largely historical due to their origin. But in modern times you do see JRPGs being made all over the world, from Korea and China to various Western developers. By the same token, you also have more Japanese-made RPGs that do not fit under the JRPG umbrella - Dark Souls and the rest of Fromsoft's output, Dragon's Dogma, etc. I've heard the food analogy before, and it is an apt comparison.
I know some people continue with a definition based on strict national boundaries, but this is wrong, wrong, WRONG! While I'm not completely against labeling say, Sea of Stars as JRPG-inspired, calling Elden Ring a JRPG is just not right.
I mentioned this in another comment, but the old definition of JRPGs describes most action and turn-based games and I feel that’s a bit antiquated.
I’ve also thought heavily about the reclassification of Souls-likes as one apart from its inspirations, especially when you look at the state of open world RPGs in the West. The TLDR; is that combat in western RPGs closest to Souls-likes usually take a back seat to the build diversity that these games allow. Games like Skyrim and Outer Worlds come to mind, especially when you compare those to a Japanese made game like Dragon’s Dogma, whose combat is more interesting than those games.
That’s not to say, of course, that Western RPG developers can’t make great action RPGs, as I’ve shown in this video. But the reality is that aside from the often used thematics, Souls-likes are rooted in a Japanese style design.
Anyway, that’s just my justification!
When it comes to action jrpg's, I usually split it into encounter-based and seamless. Tales and FF7R go into encounter-based while Ys and Nier Automata go to seamless. The latter has no encounter transitions that significantly change the controls while traversing the field as if you're playing a traditional turn-based without the turn-based.
I definitely get the need to do something like that! From my perspective, the thought is similar to games like Chrono Trigger and Chained Echoes in the turn-based realm. Fundamentally, while there are differences in the way controls function in and out of combat, the combat style is where the common threads are based on in these subgenres I've created.
THAT SAID, what complicates games in the NieR franchise for instance is the presence of OTHER types of gameplay within the action genre!
I've actually been writing an action RPG specific video for months now that further breaks down everything in that genre into four buckets that I want to get done soon! I've been thinking a lot about this genre stuff for years, so I'm happy I'm finally getting around to expressing some of these ideas!
@@BacklogBattle The ability to use most of your character's skills while outside of battle as if it's like a character action game is why I like to separate them. In an encounter-based action rpg, you can't really play around on the field attacking nothing the same way with what I call seamless action rpg's.
If tactical rpg's get to be separated for lacking dungeon/field traversal, a distinction between having separate field traversal to battle encounters, and having no virtual separation between the two is valid to me.
@@BacklogBattle As for Nier, since the presence of other types of gameplay only account for a small portion of the entire thing, these can probably ignored for the classification. It is similar to ff7r requiring you to play a combat racing minigame or dance rhythm game, suikoden having tactical rpg-like battles and rock-paper-scissor duels, the many fishing/card/whatever minigames across games some of which are required in the story at least once... Let's just add those as additional game modes that can be ignored in the genre but not necessarily defining them
Really nice genre classifications. I like that you have carve outs for Farming and Taming, as they both have really unique play loops and experiential goals. It's a hard topic to tackle, and I think a large part of the problem is that the term 'RPG' is just too big to be helpful anymore. Harvest Moon and Vampire Survivors don't need or warrant common terminology if genres are going to be useful classifications at all, and if all RPG means is numerical stat progression + some plot, that's more or less every modern release. I mean, aren't we just a tiny jump from Ys 8 to Devil May Cry 5 now? From Bloodborne to Resident Evil 8?
I'd always thought of JRPGs as anything clearly in the Dragon Quest 1 design lineage... not as a blanket term for anything made in Japan, but that was just helpful for me, and broke down at a certain point regardless.
Anyway, the only omission here for historical importance feels like first person dungeon crawlers, like Wizardry, Etrian, Might and Magic, Strahd's Possession, etc. They could sit in traditional turn-based, but they bring enough unique mechanics to the fore (mapping, location-based puzzles, etc.) that they seem like they deserve a spot and sit apart, even though they are few and far between now.
Thanks for the comment, and I'm glad you enjoyed the classifications!
Truthfully, the 10 here isn't all encompassing, and the larger taxonomy I'm building even has added considerations (like an "MMO" or "Online" modifier, which are *different* by the way). I'm trying my best to figure all of the nuances out, but for the time being, I thought the ones I featured here were truly ones that I enjoy!
And as someone who is currently playing through the Wizardry remake, yes, first person dungeon crawlers are definitely a category of its own!
great idea!
10. real time with pause - DA Inquisition/FF12
9. farming - no idea as I don't like Harvestella and don't play other games here. maybe make farming/crafting into one, in which case I'd put Atelier here, as well as my lil underrated gem Marenian Tavern Story
8. shooter Western RPGs - I do not like this gameplay style at all haha but I did just buy the ME Legendary Edition so maybe I will enjoy this!
7. tactical - Triangle Strategy and FE3H
6. action roguelikes - my choices are yours, Hades and DEFINITELY Vampire Survivors
Thanks for the reply! This was super fun to read!
So FFXII being part of #10 is because of the fact that all of the games talked about in #5 have cooldowns. Normally, RPGs that feature skill cooldowns have that because they're either doing away with a secondary metric (like MP) or they don't want you to be able to abuse said ability. FFXII's magic and skills are mostly governed by MP, which is not so dissimilar to BioWare's games. I also surmise that Matsuno was inspired by BioWare's gameplay when designing FFXII's combat!
The genres here are just a sampling of the taxonomy I'm working on, so crafting RPGs are definitely up there for me! That said, I think that there needs to be more games that push that genre forward apart from Atelier. I think Sophie 2's the best that genre's got, and more experimentations in that department are something I'm looking forward to seeing!
Oooo, this is a fun list! It reminds me why I love RPGs so much, they're so varied among subgenres, it's like a whole world unto itself.
Also, I kinda came up with my own name for Xenoblade-esque combat RPGs, I do believe it was Active Time Recharge.
That’s a very specific reference!
My list
8.Farming: Rune Factory Frontier
7.Tactical: Final Fantasy Tactics
6.Roguelites: One Way Heroics
5.Real-time Role-based: Didn't quite catch what games go here, so I'll say my favorite Xenoblade Chronicles is 3.
4.Action JRPG: Star Ocean 6 The Divine Force
3.Soulslike: Dark Souls 1
2.Monster Taming: Pokemon, generations 1 and 2 specially.
1.Turn-based: Final Fantasy 6
As I didn't put Shooter Western RPGs and Real Time With Pause, because I haven't played much of those. I'd like to add two different categories of RPGs
Dungeon Crawler: Etrian Odyssey 3
Shop Simulator: Recettear
For me:
1. Turned Based JRPG
2. Action JRPG
3. Tactical JRPG
How about 1st person dungeon crawlers like Wizardry or Etrian Odyssey? I guess they can be considered turn-based, but they have a lot of unique mechanics of their own. Cheers!
A good tactical RPG that I love (though I wouldn't necessarily call it best, it's just close) but that doesn't get mentioned much is Wild ARMs: XF. I consider it to be the spiritual successor to FFT, with a solid class based system. Sadly, so far as I know, it's only been released on the PSP.
im getting into triangle strategy! been seeing a lot of youtubers at the top of their list and im interested in playing that style of game!
Tactical - Triangle Strategy
Monster Taming - Persona 5 Royal
Action - Tales of Arise
Turn-based - Like A Dragon: Infinite Wealth
Real Time Role Based - Xenoblade Chronicles 3
Action with pause - Baldur’s Gate 2: Shadows of Amn
This is pretty much similar to the anime vs cartoon argument. Anime doesn't necessarily have to be made in Japan to be considered an anime. While yes, anime technically just means animation, it's a term that specifically refers to a type of distinct art style/vibe imo, similar to the differences between Western RPGs and JRPGs. Anyway, very interesting sub-genres mentioned here!
Thank you!
This looks like a pretty good way to classify gameplay types. But don't things like art style, story, and target audience play a large role in genre too? Like with movies, a romcom is totally different from a western or a noir, even if they're the same length and meant for the same aspect ratio. Are you gonna include these aspects of genre or is it better to just keep that question completely separate and focus on gameplay?
Great video Alex!
Some not-so quick picks from me:
RTwP: Neverwinter Nights 2. I haven't had a chance to play BG3 yet, but as a tabletop enthusiast the robust adaptation of a system I already knew was fantastic. Shoutout to SW: KOTOR as well!
Farming: Limited experience, but Harvestella is easily my favorite of the ones I have played.
ShooteRPGs: Borderlands series. Couch co-op is a MUST for me in games like this.
Tactical: FF Tactics is probably the GOAT here, but my favorite is SMT Devil Survivor. Where's ma DeSu 3, ATLUS? 😂
Rogue-like: Azure Dreams. If we could get a spiritual sequel to this with Hades-level story it might be my favorite game ever. Hades itself is my most played game of the decade by an order of magnitude. 😅
RTRB: Final Fantasy 12, although if I ever get around to playing the Xenoblade games I suspect one of them would take this spot.
Action: Ys series, with a nod to the Mana games. Really excited for Visions; hopefully it can meet our expectations!
Souls: Bloodborne. So, SO good. I argued in favor of including them, thanks for that! I could, and still might, write a novella-length treatise on all the reasons why I see them as being closer to 1980s RPGs than nearly any other branch of the tree.
Taming: Nocturne is my true love here, and as a sub-genre this is probably my overall favorite, despite never having played a Pokemon!
Traditional: Phantasy Star 4 is still my favorite, even 30 years and hundreds of games later. I'd definitely agree that it is the easiest place to recommend games for new players, with my choice for that being Square's 90s output (FF 4-7, Chrono Trigger especially).
I also loved Triangle Strategy for SRPGs. I'd add Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia as well. I rarely replay games but I replayed that one.
For Monster Catchers my favorite hands down is Ooblets. It might be more casual than your tastes. I loved that you never actually hurt the Ooblets, they just dance battle each other! I can't go back to traditional monster catchers after playing them this way. Plus the humor is perfect, even better than Borderlands 2 for me.
Some of these were really easy, some were really hard, but this is mine.
10. Real Time with Pause - Dragon Age Origins/FFXII
9. Farming - ??? (Cult of the Lamb???)
8. Shooter Western RPGs - Mass Effect Trilogy
7. Tactical - XCOM: Enemy Within/XCOM 2 War of the Chosen
6. Action Roguelikes - Hades/Hades II
5. Real-Time Role-Based - Xenoblade Franchise
4. Action JRPG - Final Fantasy VII Remake Trilogy/Yakuza Series/Kingdom Hearts Franchise/Nier Replicant & Automata (genuinely can't decide)
3. Souls-Likes - Bloodborne
2. Monster Taming - SMT: Devil Survivor Duology/Persona 2 Duology
1. Traditional Turn-Based RPGs - FF7/FF9/DQ11/Chrono Trigger/Xenogears. (this one is impossible)
Suikoden, Persona, Dragon Quest, Legend of Legaia,Jade Cocoon, Brave Fencer Musashi, Front Mission,Final fantasy, FF tactics, Vandal Heart ,Chrono Cross and Devil Summoner
Which genres do these fall into?
I really hope some JRPG developer out there decides to get inspired by Vagrant Story and FFXII cause I would love more games with battle systems like those. Also, almost any RPG where you don’t control the whole party would be improved by a gambit system…
I have this weird problem that I need to be in control of my whole party, so tactical and turn based rpgs end up at the top. Real time with pause I enjoy only if i can program my party like in DAO or ff12 and I wish more games had that system. Action rpgs i like only when i'm alone or the "party member" is in a minor support role such as in Monster Hunter.
Strangely enough, I don't mind not being able to fully control my whole party! And I've found that some action games do some "magic" in the background to determine how the rest of the party behaves, which is a bit much to cover in a comment.
I mentioned in a different comment for instance that I actually played Persona 4 and 5 with AI party members and that was a different enough challenge that felt fun and different than being able to control everyone! And honestly, I was too lazy in those playthroughs that I didn't mind if the AI messed up a few times just so I can just mostly sit back and focus on my protag LOL
Welp, I guess I resisted that thumbnail long enough. 🥰
I like most the Turnbase RPG. It is Chess on a Battlefield, and i have Time to plan my next Turn. With a great Story i love this Games. Sory for my bad Englisch but i am from Austria and my Fist Language is German.
My favorite thing about JRPGs is team building where each role is critical to combat success. Can be as simple as 3-4 man of Final Fantasies/Octopath or as complex as Persona or Fire Emblem, or crazy many like The Last Remnant. Solo JRPGs like Crisis Core, MMOs, and some who has AI teammates can be a turnoff for me sometimes
I actually *like* having AI teammates! When I played through Persona 4 and 5, I used AI exclusively! It made for a fun and often times unnecessarily challenging experience, but it made me appreciate the engine more!
instead of x-com, I like Marvel Midnight suns more. And yes, I also loved Mass Effect Andromeda! :))
curious, where do you put Monster Hunter mainline games? or they aren't RPGs ?
Definitely action JRPGs!
My favourite subgenre of RPJs is The strategic bullet hell RPJs
Which I only know one game of this genre
Knights in the nightmare which is probably one of my favourite games ever and my favourite RPJ please check it out if you can
Also I challenge anyone to name a more niche game than this
IMO, Persona series aren't really monster taming RPGs because demons give protagonist cards so that s/he can fuse 2 different type demons to get new Persona. Rune Factory series do both monster taming and farming.
What is the name of the game at 10:52?
This one! Chained Echoes Review (PC, also on PS4, Switch, XB1) | Backlog Battle
ruclips.net/video/QlmLjG09TSw/видео.html
Surprised to not see dungeon crawlers rpgs, as they are their own thing.
My favourites:
Real time with pause: baldur's gate 2?
Farming: rune factory 3
Shooter western rpgs: borderlands 2?
Tactical: fire emblem (a ton of them), triangle strategy, mario+rabbids, smt overclocked
Action rogue-like: hades
Real-time role based: xenoblade saga
Action jrpgs: ys lacrimosa of dana, seiken densetsu 3
Souls-like: no idea here...
Monster taming: smt 4, persona 3 and 5
Traditional turn based rpg: ff6,7,10, octopath traveler, dragon quest 11...
There are more than 10 types of RPGs, and first person dungeon crawlers are definitely one of them
@@BacklogBattle ah! Ok xd
So, what category would Skyrim and the rest of the Elder Scrolls series fall in?
Most likely Western open world RPG
Agreed
Shouldn't the FF7R Trilogy be classified as Real-Time with Pause?
The game isn’t technically paused - time just moves very slowly!
Hahahaha fair enough 😅
F***in' RUclips auto-play deleted my damn essay. twice. Just gonna list...
10. FF7 Remake. Haven't finished Rebirth, which may be objectively better, but I feel has less pausing in combat.
9. Sakuna. Haven't played much of this genre (Or Sakuna). I do like base-building mechanics, to some degree. I'm probably forgetting something...
8. Deus Ex. (Fallouts are fine too. Not a big fan of shooting something, and for it to shrug off lots of damage, generally)
7. Gladius. (Am digging Jeanne D'arc. Played it a billion years ago on PSP but didn't finish. Gonna finish this time)
6. Hard to beat Hades. I'll mention Rogue Legacy 2.
5. FF12. I've been out of the Nintendo ecosystem for a while, so I missed Xenoblade games. I know you listed this under 10, but I think the gambit system is more real-time than pausing.
4. I adore Scarlet Nexus, but outside of that, I'll mention Kingdom Hearts. I've only finished Ys Origin, currently.
3. If I'm going off the beaten path, Asterigos. If I'm a little more mainstream, Jedi: Fallen Order. (It's not so abusive as other Souls-likes)
2. Only monster-tamer I've played is old-school Persona 3. I'm gonna start SMT V soon (vengeance arc).
1. I want to take a moment to mention Star Renegades. Really challenging Turn-based Rogue like. The fights are finite, and highly curated. The difficulties can be increased with each successful run, and are meaningful. If you really want to challenge yourself, and aren't afraid of 3-hour runs that can end in failure, try it out.
Where does Monster Hunter belong to? I am on the soulslike part of your video when i ask this
Interestingly enough, I’m making a video dedicated to action RPGs that… gasp… blends both?! You’ll just have to wait until I finish it!
@@BacklogBattle goodluck with that, boss!!
My picks for games in your genres:
RT with pause - I don't have a pick for this one. I disliked BG 1 and 2, and Dragon Age Origins which is all I can remember from this genre. You have Vagrant Story in the B-Roll during this segment, but I don't recall it having elements like that. Maybe Spellforce? I only played 2 or 3 stages of it so it feels wrong to call it a "favorite" but I really got nothing else.
Farming - Again, no good pick for me. I didn't like old school Harvest Moon back in the day, and I didn't like Rune Factory 4 when I tried it a couple years ago. I do want to try Harvestella, but I have yet to actually play a farming game I enjoyed.
Shooter Western RPGs - Not only do I not have a good pick, I've never played one. I don't enjoy or play shooters. With rare exception, I don't play first person games either, which most shooters are. Adding RPG to a shooter is not going to help.
Tactical - Disgaea 2 hands down. Love that game, need to catch up on the series. I haven't played as much of this genre as I would like. Partly because of the time commitment, partly because half the time they are just too hard for me to enjoy. The general gameplay loop is right up my alley though and there are many in my backlog.
Action Roguelike - Never played one, unless you count Dead Cells or 20XX. Anyway, roguelike is in my top 3 most disliked.... mechanics? Game design paradigms? Subgenres? Whatever you call it, I hate roguelikes with a passion. Some are definitely RPGs though, can't argue that.
RT Role-based - This is hard. I don't play online games anymore, but I used to be pretty hardcore into WOW circa WOTLK. Rift at launch was amazing - a better WOW than WOW at the time. FF14 ARR had a lot going for it as well, but I didn't like the combat and dropped it after running out of content. I can't think of much in the way of offline games that I've played that fit this category. I did like .hack//INFECTION (the first game) but never maintained interest to finish the quadrilogy.
Action JRPG - Ys VIII for sure. Most of the Ys series is excellent. Trials of Mana remake also deserves special mention. Actually, just the Mana series in general, thought Trials is the best of them. There's a lot of great games here that could be listed.
Souls-likes - Code Vein tops my (admittedly short) list of souls-likes I've played, with Little Witch Nobeta not too far behind.
Monster taming - Again, not one I have extensive experience in. I liked Pokemon but grew bored of the formula. Disliked Persona 4 and SMT. I guess technically Lufia 2 has monster taming, but I wouldn't say there's enough focus on it to call it a monster taming RPG. But if you want to count it, that would be my pick.
Traditional Turn-based - Of course classics like FF6 and CT deserve mention here. After some thought, I think I might give Atelier Escha & Logy the top spot. I really enjoy many of the Atelier games, and this entry is in my opinion the best. Though I do think of crafting RPGs as more of a separate subgenre distinct from traditional RPGs.
@obake6290 RT with pause: my first RPG (western, on PC) was Dungeon Siege (I). Fond memories.
Watching this makes it feel like even the subgenres need subgenres (Hades and Vampire Survivors lumped together when they're so different). All games are RPGs. XD
Genres are like branches on a tree. It’s not a wholly linear classification
Japanese style action RPGs could easily be the best genre if they nail the combat system right, they are pretty much single handedly keeping the stylish hack n slash genre alive in modern gaming
but my heart broke when i saw you putting Soulslikes above them...
There are other genres that didn’t even make the cut! Be happy that action JRPGs are in the Top 10!
Souls-likes are Action RPGs, just slower and more methodical. I don't think it is justified to split them as a separate thing.
It absolutely does! Genres are meant to be a short-hand to give players an expectation of what they're about to experience. Imagine handing a Tales game to someone who loves Souls-likes and telling them they belong in the same genre.
By the way, this *has* happened - I've gotten at least three comments saying they thought Tales was an action game like Elden Ring and were completely disappointed by it!
@@BacklogBattle I agree in principle and am all for genres being clear pointers to what the games will be like but where do we draw the line?
As a Disgaea fan I know for a fact I recommended the series to FE and TO fans and they did not even think it played the same at all (being focused on character customization and loot). I am completely sure most of my Xcom fans friends would not like any grid based TRPG, yet we call all those games from the same genre.
Why would it be different with Dark Souls and its adjacent?
@@nerdzone we draw the line when there is too much specificity, like calling Rune Factory a monster taming RPG as well despite it being known for farming and crafting. Genres that are too broad don’t help people either, and there is a balance to be had on a case by case basis.
Those are pretty goid distinctions. I don't play all of them, of course. I don't have any interest in Rogue-likes, Souls-likes, farming, ot (most) monster raising games.
I would define "JRPG" as being created by Japanese developers. Otherwise, it would be "JRPG Inspired."
@@drewtheunspoken3988 so Chinese food in the West should be called “Chinese inspired” then?
@BacklogBattle It's not a perfect definition, admittedly.
It could also be argued that, perhaps, there doesn't need to be the "J" at all as the distinction becomes less specific. Dragon's Dogma, for example, plays more like a Western RPG than Japanese.
I obviously don't have anything approaching a good argument one way or the other.
Genres are definitely in a strange spot, for sure. And with gameplay constantly evolving, the styles are always ever changing.
To your point about Dragon's Dogma, I can argue that it plays more Japanese than Western because action RPGs in the West closest to its style (open world RPGs like Skyrim, Fallout, and Outer Worlds for example) are often criticized for having lackluster gameplay, with its action combat being less pronounced in favor of making impressive builds! And that's really what's important - is to identify the commonality between all of them and using genres to help make general sense out of all of them as opposed to being overly specific, lest it loses all meaning.
@BacklogBattle I hadn't considered that. I look at Dragon's Dogma being closer to something like Dragon Age or Kingdom of Amalur. It's not exactly the same, obviously, but it feels like it's "of a kind."
As I stated earlier, I don't really have a strong argument for one way or another. It's just how I personally define it.
I would add that when an authentic chinese meal is modified to fit the tastes of the people in an another country, it loses its status of true chinese food. American pizza is nothing like an italian pizza, still it's a pizza (and not bad, it's not a difference of quality but of authenticity). Still, there are lots of japanese inspired rpg around the world, as there are lots of meals inspired from other countries or culture. But I get your point. I just think the food analogy doesn't work perfectly.
"JRPG" to me is "Japanese RPG," and not "Japanese-like RPG" or "inspired by Japanese RPG."
My major criteria:
1. Recognizable as RPG; the game play should involve and be heavily influenced many of the typical RPG and historical JRPG mechanics.
2. Made by a Japanese company; at least the lead company developing the game should be.
3. The major leaders on the team are Japanese, or mostly Japanese. (Writer, software engineer, graphic artist, producer, etc.--the team's working language should be Japanese.)
4. Targets Japanese consumer as the primary or at least as one of the primary audiences.
Of all of the criteria, #4 is the most important and non-negotiable: a "Japanese RPG" must be an RPG for Japanese people.
I'd go further (this is a recent change of mind, by the way). Since few of us westerners enjoy playing games with Japanese text, I'd say JRPG = RPG (if we can ever agree on what that covers!) we can play thanks to a fan-made translation patch for the text (menu text as the minimum) but retaining Japanese voice acting (if there is any). A useful category for certain retro games (if for nothing else).
@Backlog Battle, I thoroughly approve your idea of genre sub-classifications across western and Japanese, regardless of origin. Though in the way that "JRPG" (your traditional ones) was once synonymous with "console RPG", shouldn't we now be asking whether games written for mobile phones require their own sub-category?