Why you should HONDA VTEC swap an INDY CAR!
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- Опубликовано: 22 янв 2020
- Casey Putsch talks about possibly swapping the motor in an INDYCAR to a Honda S2000 VTEC derivative and why that is a good idea instead of an LS. Also, the technological history of 1990s Indy and Champ cars as well as engines in the American Indy Car Series. MERCH BABY! www.redbubble.com/people/case...
Follow Casey on IG! Instagram @caseyputsch / caseyputsch
Genius Garage www.geniusgarageracing.com 
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If you’re going to Vtec swap it, grab a F20C and shove that in there!
And maybe throw in a shorter stroke crankshaft, some valve springs and a turbocharger and have a baby F1 car that’ll rev to over 11K reliably!
That or throw in a built and balanced 13B - or maybe even a 20B - and have something that sounds like a baby 767B!
That’d be totally badass!
CarNutz that or a k20 boosted would smash it
Paul C - Which one? The F20C, 13B or 20B?
If you’re talking about an F20C; I totally agree. Their weird cylinder liners have a limited power ceiling, but I was thinking their larger displacement over many F-series motors would lend itself better to the Indycar.
If you’re talking a fully build 5th-gen 13B or a 20B however; the K20 would have one hell of an uphill battle to compete with a rotary, as rotaries take to racing applications like ducks do to water.
Rotaries are significantly lighter, have a lower center of gravity, are smaller and can make more power (reliably) in racing applications thanks to their reduced moving part count.
I’ve seen NA 13B’s make over 1,000 Horsepower on methanol when naturally aspirated. Turbocharged, they can hit 1,500+ with not much strain. And 20B’s have an extra rotor and 600cc’s more displacement.
It’d be really difficult for a Honda motor to compete with a well-built rotary.
It would be awesome with a 20b but they are stupid expensive and tend to be a little unreliable. It would sound amazing tho.
Rotary Indy Car would be AWESOME!
Rotary Indy... does sound wicked
VTEC Turbos can be like an 80s F1 car if you play your cards right presumably
13b turbo rotary swap? Mega potential for power to weight, cool factor over 9000
I second this. And it will he able to rev high enough to take advantage of the gears.
that's exactly what i thought
The power to weight of 13b engines is overrated. They're dense sure, but I think most of the plates are made of iron. A K20/24 weights the same or less I believe
You can get a blow'd up RX-8 for CHEAP...
could also do a rad NA 13b, 20b, or 26b and sound like a 787b...theres aluminum CNC-ers out there that do the housings for strength and iron cores you can swap out during a rebuild
Have you thought about reaching out to Honda to see if they will donate a Civic Type R (2.0-liter DOHC direct-injected i-VTEC Turbo) Crate Motor?
Good idea. May try it...
Yeah I would go that route that is the engine that dai yoshihara is running in his new AE86 build
@@CaseyPutsch Or how about normal k20A or even k24 because they are dirt cheap and they are kit solutions for every problem you stated ( drysump pan with internal chain driven pump and 500-1000hp of the shelf turbo kit).
@@CaseyPutsch no ur gonna end up with 7000rpm max with those. You need to get the pre 2010 k series motors if you want to build them for 13k rpm. call 4piston racing or one of those head cutting companies they will build you a motor for 10kish that can be rebuilt for pennies and will suit the gearing.
@Bud Smokegood a drag motor won't be suitable. This one will need to handle sustained maximum rpm for extended periods of time. The build is a bit different for a circuit motor, but the same power goals are definitely achievable.
Great food for thought and interesting design possibilities!
So late in the day I thought there was no video today also u think yesterday
i would go with the k24 over the f22 or f20
Hit up the Boostedboiz and pfi speed. Great you tube channels and they love stuff like this. Will be a great resource and probably have parts.
Maibe uce a stock PGM 2.0L V8 Sportbike Engine.. put out around 500Hp on 12000Rpm
The guys over at Boostedboiz YT channel have cars with 2.4l Honda motors running over a thousand horsepower for drag racing, but I bet a build like theirs tuned down to 7-800hp would be fairly reliable!
Bruh I can’t afford a bucket seat settle down
A stone is just a stone unless you use it as a tool. When something sits unused it is a waste of its own potential. In other words you're on the right track. Make it usable and make it useful. I love your way of thinking on this particular project.
What about Rotary motor from something like an RX-7 or RX-8. You could possibly tune it to high revs to make use of the gearing that wants 10K+ RPM
I didn't see this comment until after I had posted the same suggestion. A 3 or 4 rotary with a nice sized turbo on it would be something I'd like to see. It'll also rev high and be able to utilize the high revving gears! It would also sound amazing!
Call tavarsh ask him for the 3 rotor wankel.
Those motor are very cost prohibitive and very and I mean very touchy. I know many people that build Honda motors and many people that build rotaries and even the rotary guys will admit them have blown way more of them up than their Honda counterparts. You could easily build 2 Honda race ready k20 or 24s for the price of a single fully built 13b. The reliability simply isn't there for the rotary
I love the idea, and the F20 engine is a great choice, but I think a K20A would also be a good choice, although I'm not sure how the flywheel/clutch situation would work.
I do think your crazy but it has nothing to do with the fact a vtec swap is a great idea!
928 and S2000 owner...you’re my spirit animal! I have a S2000 with 200,000
..new head and it runs like a new car. Local racer had 20,000 race miles on one....baby NSX motor, bottom ends are virtually indestructible. . Go for it. Talk to mid-Ohio..they ran them as class cars, might have spares sitting around.
Cool idea Casey. I know PFI Speed here on YT is working on a SC2000 for drag racing. They're building the drive train and using the VTech engine. Although they're turbo charging theirs. They're some really good fabricators and engine builders.
Do it!
Or... continue your 80’s theme and grab a turbo v6 from a grand national?
J30 v6?
Getting a GN 3.8 turbo to rev over 6000 rpm is a bit of work. This transmission wants over 10,000, something any pushrod engine has trouble doing.
@@MrWaffleinc small displacement v6s like the VG series of Nissan engines that start from 2L to 3.5 I believe, then you have the vq and vr
Glad you mentioned that its wet sump. I oil starved my s2000 on my 2nd track day. On this beast a dry sump or baffled pan would be a must.
Loved "Big Mo's" Hollywood Pacwest paintjob from the mid 90's. Putting in a realiable, small, hi-reving motor sounds like a very smart idea. I add to the vote of a rotary If it's feasible to put in something like Mazda 4 or 3 rotor, you would retain a lot of that Indycar sound with the high revs of the engine. I don't know how you would retain having a stressed engine though with something that small.
Ok i see i wasnt the only 1 who thought 13b. How about the new mazda variable compression enigne. I love the honda idea. Just trying to brain storm potential options
Probably best to get an F20c or F22c from an S2000
Dry stumps are commonly available for those engines
www.todaracingusa.com/catalog/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=202&a..
I'm so glad your doning this ! A friend and I are going to build our own open wheel cars using Honda twin cam vtec motors to run in scca Auto x
Hardcore Ls guy, and I whole heartedly support the Vtec idea. Since the engine is stressed, could you build a chromoly subframe to bolt the engine into and let that be the stressed member?
lots of racing support for rotaries. compact, simple, and they scream :D
As a longtime Honda fan, I love the idea. Hope it comes to fruition. Look forward to seeing how this progresses.
I'd love to come build cars and work on that garage some day. That would definitely be an interesting swap with plenty of parts support for the engine and definitely reliable
Pls Caesy MAKE IT HAPPEN
If you are thinking about anything Honda get in contact with Brent from PFI and Boosted Boiz. Ask Cletus McFarland and he will give you a recommendation on how fantastic they are with building and tuning turbo Honda motors. They even built a hondaru. They replaced the Subaru WRX engine with a Honda k series and turbod it. These guys can reliably make over 800hp and some of their builds of the K24 are pushing over 100hp to the tires. I'm sure they would help you because they are just a great group of guys.
Track day, vTec swapped, indycar?
Or maybe a rotary?
I'm all over this Casey, god I hope I get to help!
I was surprised to learn at one of the vintage Indy events years ago that Indy Roadster “tributes” use a contemporary Alfa Romeo Spyder in-line four as an alternative to the Offy. It is less temperamental, parts are easily available and it has nearly the same output! Wish I could post a pic because the Alfa looks right at home in the roadster engine bay.
Doesn't Tavarish have a rotary engine that would work for it?
Exactly what i was thinking! lol
It would be awesome to see it with an S2K motor or even a Rotary motor since they rev out so high. I think your kids are lucky to have someone like you helping them. Wish I was that lucky.
hell yeah you will love the f20c on boost. 9250rpm stock block on 20psi with race gas is 500hp easy. Ive built alot of them for people.
i would like to see it done as a project with a Honda S2000 VTEC Engine in it, as it would be a awesome project for the kids at Genius Garage to get stuck into and work out all the problems as they come across them in the build, i am looking forward to it!
Do it!!! I can’t wait to see the results 😎
i love the single take style of your channel
Sounds like a very logical idea Casey. Your right it’s a paper weight now so anything is better than nothing to bring this beauty back to life.
Make a coffee table out of the motor with the story cut in to the glass (good parts of the story) it’d be cool and sell it as art for genius garage. Use it to raise money? Idea I don’t know...
fryrear technology it’s probably a $20,000 motor still. 800 hp + no turbo....
I think you should do it. Would be pretty cool to see.
It might even give you something close to a period correct sound. The S2000 sounds a lot like a flat-plane V8.
When the vtec kicks in yo! That’s funny and awesome. The Honda motors are really cool. They are not as awesome as a BMW motor but still they are everywhere and cheap. Think it’d be possible to make it street legal with some kind of top? Also the BMW S65B44 motor is rev happy in its stock form and the P65B44 was a race motor for the 2008-2016 M3/Z4 GT cars. Just a idea BMW fan...
I am not a big Toyota fan but as a thought the Toyota engine used in the Lotus Elise ,I am not familiar with them other than a friend of mine has an Elise and the engine sounds good and pulls well. I really don’t care what brand would go in I would love to see it back on the track. Wishing you well.
I have always thought about putting an s2k engine in an indy or an f1 car, glad that someone is going to do it.
Must you convert it to dry sump or could you use baffling to keep the oil flowing even in high G turns?
Sound logic Casey. The only other "cheap and simple" engine that comes to mind is the Oldsmobile Aurora IRL V8. It would fit your rpm needs and easy to get.
I've been searching for rolling chassis single seater cars to do something like this with. Something I've never been able to figure out is how to assemble the transaxle and the monocoque together with an engine that was meant to hang from traditional engine mounts. Maybe a cradle? Idk
A nicely built N/A f series engine would sound great and feel amazing in that, whether turbocharged/supercharged or not, it would still be a great heart for the chassis
Also, can you share where you would most likely be able to shop/search for these 80's open-wheel racecars?
Epic idea! Would be a great project and way to use the car. Could start a trend, never know
This is a great idea, I'd want to say look into the k 24 honda with the k 20 head is a popular option to swap on those engines, they do make dry sump kits for these hondas and if you lock out the vtec you'll have an engine that will rev over 11k and with turbos you could see 1000hp. There are honda people out there doing that in drag hondas.
Hey Casey I'm in the same situation as you. I have a roller dp01 with no engine. The issue I'm having is crank centerline to bellypan distance. It's 3". I did some measuring and I found that the 4g63 with just an 1/8" flat sheet of aluminum for the oil pan might just work out height wise. That's the direction I'm currently thinking. The iron block should also be able to be partially stressed.
I'm curious about how the engine and trans align on the current engine you have in there? Is that a standard small block? and is the crank centerline really that low?
thedp01 on ig if you want to see some pics
I didn't even think about the 4G63T! I was thinking rotary. However, you could change the connecting rods, drop it to a 1.8L screamer and it would rev to around the 10k mark
Great idea! However the 4B11t would be a slightly better option than the 4G63t. Less weight, and much more reliable. However you do have a point about the iron block helping with stress, but seeing as he's considering an F20 he could clearly make a 4B11t work aswell.
You do know that stroke and rod ratio is not what determines the rev limit? Its easy to make a engine rev, but to make it produce power out there is the difficult part. Most engines run into valve float before the rods or anything else fails. Destroking a motor just for revs is not always the best option.
Good opportunity to get with PFI Speed for tuning... Turbo, with a well built motor, and you could see well over 600 whp reliably.
I like where your head is at, but maybe a rotary would be a better solution due to size/power/RPM considerations. Rotaries handle forced induction very well, and it would be a unique opportunity to teach different styles of ICE operations. There was a story that I remember reading with a rotary driven formula? Car maybe? The major issue that they had was asymmetrical cornering due to gyroscopic issues with the high RPM rotary. If I remember correctly, the oil pan had to be modified to drop the engine like 2 1/2 inches in the body to mitigate gyroscopic issues. Also, even though it is old tech, it would be a really cool opportunity to teach fuel management, spark management/ignition timing of both pre and post combustion firing as you would probably want to do standalone vs. factory solutions. Anyway, I thought it would be cool. I like the Honda solution as well though.
I totally approve of the VTEC idea. This would be an awesome platform to learn to race on.
As an S2000 owner, I approve 100%! S2000 motors are fantastic and respond really well to boost if you want to go that direction.
Have you also considered just K swapping it? A good number of S2000 owners swap to a built K24 and can make them rev over 10k. Also if you do blow up a motor (which you will at some point) a K24 is cheaper to replace
Any opinion on the honda new l15 turbo engine? I heard from smoking tires it can make 380 wheel horsepower with stock internal and modified indictions. Ah nevermind it doesnt rev high enough maybe
Sounds like a great plan. You can always swap in something else at a later time. Another question sometimes overlooked......does the Honda turn the same direction as the SBC? Example: Fords turn opposite of GM. Curious how the valve covers look like they have dents where the rocker arms are. Was it severely over revved at some point......or? I wish I lived closer to you, I'm in upstate NY.
If nothing else, designing a functional stress-cage for the V-Tec within the limitations and constraints of that setup would be well worth the engineering experience.
European support championship for F1 known as GP2 today had H22 engines back in the 90s. Same engine was used in BTCC and WTCC cars winning races. Basically the same engines in Honda Prelude or Accord type R euro. F20C it's an evolution from F20B which is basically some de-stroked H22. Maybe F20C with compressor will behave like N/A F20 as power delivery but of course with double the power. People talking about turbo engines on these kind of racing cars know nothing about track competitions where it's all about time/lap, preserving the tires, aerodynamics, cornering speed and those stuffs
It IS a really cool idea. I think you should enlist other schools to make a similar commitment to build collegiate-level competitive car and get together and run them. If it gets off the ground, I can see Honda sponsoring the whole show.
Not to discount how cool a Honda motor would be but a rotary would be a very interesting choice. Certainly could provide a healthy learning curve to Genius Garage students and give some good engineering challenges. As long as you can keep a rotary cool it'd be a sweet little ripper.
If you do install the motor from an S2000. Look into the 2003 F20c from an AP1. It retains the 9k redline... But has some of the upgrades from the 2004 AP2.
I am sure you would crack it open and build it. But to start it will have some benefits...and the 9k
I love the idea. Definitely consider the 2005-2011 Civic Si motor. The K20Z3 has plenty of support, they're cheap and easier to find than the S2000 motor, and I know there are dry sump kits available. Not to mention you can keep it naturally aspirated and still get great power out of them, to the extreme of 400+bhp. There are even crazier ones out there, but it all comes down to how much you'd want to put into it. Great idea though. Makes me want to find one of these myself
I think your spot on with the s2000 engine swap. What do you think about throwing that 350 in the boxster chassis for the lyken build? Is it possible or would it once again make it overcomplicated and abysmal?
I like the To do list on the whiteboard
Sounds like a ton of fun
I would check out 4-piston racing if I were doing this. They modify K-series honda engines for dry sump systems and they build some of their motors to rev over 11k and make 480HP naturally aspirated. Normally I'd say just put forced induction in there, but if you need revs to make the gearbox work, their k20-330 or k24-480 engines seem like they'd suit your purpose.
They all sell modified F20 and F22 Hondas as well but the K-series engines they sell rev higher.
Honestly, I 100% agree. 300hp at 9000 rpm is plenty for a car that light weight. You're a genius.
One of your main concerns with the SBC was the gearing ratios combined with engine RPM. How do you plan to address that with an S2K motor making less power and roughly same RPMs?
My buddy has an s2000 and those engines not only rev like hell but are super reliable which would only improve on that Champ cars drivability and reliability. Great Idea Casey excited to see what you do but you also have 2 other car projects going on😂
since that is a V8 is there space enough for a wrx sti engine? that might a have a little more power. but this seems like a cool project.
Should look up the onpoint dyno 350z... it's a 4.2L vq35hr making 532whp naturally aspirated. Potential swap. Or 1uz or 3uz Toyota engine. Able to produce over 500whp.
Dailey engineering make drysumps for both.
Hey Casey, i don't know much about building cars but you said the S2000 engine would work because its smaller, you can work around it needing to be stressed, and you need it to rev higher. Theoretically a rotary engine fits all of those criteria and its very light. I would love to hear how you feel about that, I'm assuming it wouldn't be as good for a ton of reasons.
What 11* heads does the SBC have? Would you be interested in selling those, I am semi-local is SW Michigan.
A Honda F20/K2X is a good candidate for this project, also a rotary would be interesting given their compact and high revving nature.
Gugelmins car looks sick especially with the Hollywood decals 👌
love the idea, go k series. stock k24 with a turbo can reliably make 450hp and they are CHEAP. modified with internals and a 4piston head with cams and you can make over 600hp and rev to 10 grand. i have always wanted to take an old indycar and make it into a can am car with bodywork. that would be a nice idea for an aero project to learn from.
Great idea.. It has been my dream for years to do something like that...
What about putting a turbo charged rotary engine in it? Maybe a 3 rotar, or get crazy and do a 4 rotar. It would definitely be different and interesting. Not to mention it would be high revving and capable of utilizing the high rev gears. It would also sound awesome!
Have you consider the Honda K series motors as well?. Cheaper than an F20C, and with bolt ons and a tune, they make similar horsepower numbers as an F20C. Getting them to rev to 9000 isn't difficult either.
How about a 4 pot turbo Duratec?, it has a huge support network for upgrades off the shelf, including dry sump etc. I have a similar project, which is a Reynard 88D F3000. Essentially a year old F1 car back in the day. Like yours, the DFV was worth more than the car, so mine will be running a Cosworth YB which can be made to produce similar bhp to the original engine, easy to run and secure components for. I will be using the new YB lightweight alloy block as well, so the whole thing will weigh next to nothing with 500 bhp on tap. I look forward to following your progress. Meant to ask, but from memory the S2000 crank turns the opposite way to conventional engines, will that have an effect on the transverse box internals?
Look into a ford 4cyl. Those are amazingly versatile. From industrial to truck, to sports car use.
Great idea! Something That the school can use over and over. Also they can learn something that they will see way more common.
I absolutely love it, this is a GREAT idea. I also see a lot of people suggesting going Rotary, that would be cool as hell, but I think I like the production Honda motor better.
I'll counter with my own crazy idea, though. Hear me out.
I haven't seen anyone suggest an EV swap yet, basically make this thing a DIY Formula E. I know, I know, I know, a ton of car guys our age will just roll their eyes at that idea, but seriously think about it. An electric motor can get way up there in RPMs, and offer a ton of torque right off the shelf with no extra work. Guys our age have decades of nostalgia built up around engines and oil and gasoline, but kids today don't have those attachments yet, and they're way more into EVs than we are.
The one big problem is short track day time because the batteries run out, but if you build a handful of batteries and find a way to swap them out, then Genius Garage would basically embarrass Formula E as a whole since they're supposedly a real racing series and they still can't seem to figure it out. If you can get a magazine to notice and run a story on that, then you can draw in a ton of eyeballs and get Genius Garage and your message of real, true enthusiasm for cars out there to even more people.
And yes I know it'll make it heavier, and you won't get any cool sounds out of it, and a thousand other things that are different that our generation doesn't like. But if your goal is to connect with young people and draw them in to this sort of thing, then I think it makes a lot of sense.
Rotaries are cool as hell and dont get me wrong, i love everything about them. But there is no motor out there that is less reliable in the world, especially after building it for high revs or hp. It would run great and in a instance it just runs crap or die then the seals failed.
Ev sounds amazing. I was kind of intrigued by a ev type vehicle myself.
For what Casey wants with this car, you need a reliable engine, thats cheap, and revs to atleast 9k rpm and make reasonable power at that rpm range. The only engines apart from a toyota 4age that revs like that is any honda vtec, and then a 4g63. A sr20det with a neo vvl head could do well too. Im a sucker for a lexus 1uz vvti. But it wont ever see 9k rpm and live to tell the tale. I say k24A1 for the win.
Casey, contact Brent from pfi speed. Just google them. Real nice guys.
What about the ariel atom v8 engine? That thing revs to like 10500 rpm
Honestly this is the coolest idea I've heard in a while. It beats the hell out of just letting sit
A high revving, well balanced F20 would be so fun.
Ninja edit: In Europe they do a lot of cool things with the Ford Duratec engine, but that might be a pain to work with in the states.
Would it be an effective swap to go rotary? Like a 13b? Its a pretty light engine high rpm and a little more like how it was in the 80s.
output shaft too high.
Vtec would be sick!! Also the K24Z from 4pistonracing would be a cool alternative.
What about the rotary out of Tavarish’s SLC?
I think it's a great idea Casey. You probably know more about this than me, but I thought it might be worthwhile to also consider other Honda engine series and perhaps a certain maybe famous Mitsubishi 4-cylinder.
For all the reasons you mentioned, I think it's a great idea.
F20C is a fantastic choice but have you considered the 2006-2008 K24A2? These are very receptive to boost and are extremely durable. Or even possibly a K20A2 or K20Z1. Those are both higher revving and can handle lots of boost.
could also do a k20 or k24 also people make dry sump for those engines and i think people do it for F20C
You could even do a common shaft F20 engine not sure who builds them but they are out there. No turbos needed and it would rev to 10k and be a v8
How about a k-series? They're cheaper and easier to find parts for.
K20a2 is another good (probably cheaper) alternative for a high rpm VTEC Honda. I think you're definitely thinking along the right track for a good way to turn that paperweight into a race car!
Great idea, go for it!
maybe try throwing in a volvo b5452 they can take some serious power on stock internal;not to mention how awesome they sound at 5krpm.
I know this video is a year old,and im new to the channel, but a k20 out of an RSX might be similar performance and just as upgradeable, but WAY cheaper than an F20 out of an s2000
What about Lotus/Toyota V6 engine with a supercharger?
Casey how much is this car making hp stock?How much do you want ur vtec to make? Why dont u use a powerful stock engine like a Lotus 918 or RB25? Something different and cool you know...
How about a big bike engine from a zx14 or similar? I'm not really into bikes but at least they rev high already and you could build one for some decent power...
I have no clue how they mount or how you'd go about attaching the transaxle though...
You could possibly do the same with a K-series but that might require some building. Either way it’s a great idea.