Since the flaps are down and the throttle is closed, the plane will continue to lose airspeed due to the drag of the flaps and lack of thrust. After a bounce, the elevator might not have enough authority to prevent a second (and generally worse) bounce. You must add some power to regain some of the lost airspeed before attempting to touch down again. If you go to full throttle to do a go-around, the flaps are going to make the nose pitch up. You have to push forward on the yoke pretty hard while raising the flaps to 10 or 20 degrees and then trim the plane for a safe climb speed. Looks like his instructor never had him practice going around with full flaps at 1.3x the stall speed.
The school solution to go around after bouncing when lots of runway remains for a second, perhaps soft field type, landing leads to many unnecessary go arounds. The ACS test requirement to first establish a positive rate of climb on go around leads to high pitch attitudes without the required (for climb) zoom reserve airspeed. Wolfgang taught us years ago about the law of the roller coaster. On go around, airspeed is much more critical than positive rate of climb. And as in normal takeoff, thousands of feet of free ground effect energy is given up by pitching up early. I understand the need for certification standards, but if we just teach flying first the outcome of the maneuver is not in doubt.
My flight school taught to go around after a bounce because of the risk of porpoising. But when I soloed I kind of ignored some of that advice. I think if you bounce sufficiently enough you should probably go around because you do risk a nose gear collapse or a prop strike if you try to salvage it. If you simply made a hard landing with some bounce, just keep the nose up, add maybe a little power, and salvage it that way. If you bounced enough to make your teeth rattle, I would suggest just going around before you make it worse. You really need to know how to do a go-around properly, though. You're right that it's important to get students out of the instinctive reflex of pitching up and instead pick up airspeed and raise one notch immediately to assist in that.
@@aviation_nut The round out and hold off technique gives up a very important control for exact glide angle and rate of descent. By closing the throttle, we eliminate dynamic throttle control. But we are going too fast. requiring a closed throttle. Decelerate on short final enough to sink with full flaps a bit causing us to need to bring the throttle into dynamic control of glide angle. Now coming into high ground effect, do not let the apparent rate of closure with the numbers speed up. Use the elevator to further decelerate to maintain an apparent brisk walk rate of closure with the numbers. 1,3 Vso is no longer needed for safety. Vso is no longer needed for safety. We are trying to slow to the very, very low ground effect stall airspeed. This is necessary to not bounce. This is necessary to quit flying in one inch ground effect. This adjusted apparent rate of closure, same as when we decelerate into an intersection with our car, allows us to touch down slowly and softly every time on the exact desired spot. We need to know how to land safely, managing energy, both potential and kinetic, properly. Yes, we need to know how to emphasize airspeed over altitude and even use ground effect to go around properly. We also need to know how to take off properly, safely using ground effect to accelerate to cruise airspeed when thousands of feet of runway remain. Neither Vx nor Vy are ever appropriate on long runways and the concept/requirement to pitch up early while slow is the beginning of the problem. The principle, the law of the roller coaster, says this is a gross error. Airspeed is altitude. Yes, altitude is also airspeed, but we need potential energy of altitude in order to convert altitude into airspeed. If we have no potential energy of altitude, no altitude, we have to have fuel energy and ground effect energy to get potential energy of altitude most efficiently. We have to have airspeed first. Low altitude orientation is that airspeed, not altitude, is life.
To fly gliders (sailplanes) you're taught to actually recover from bounces and land further afield, and trained to not induce PIO/porpoising. It seems to work well. Sometimes being too reliant on having an engine to save you can lead to worse outcomes.
@@alirezanejati9712 Yes, certainly. And we have power available to ease down the second time. It is unfortunate we don't just teach energy management to begin with, but the best ACS book short field takeoff is actually the soft field technique using ground effect. And the best book short field landing is the soft field technique. If we're not landing until a thousand feet down a fine runway, we might as well ease it down with power. I actually teach hover taxi in airplanes to give students, more than just a second every landing experience with flying slow enough to land.
As a glider pilot, am I to understand that it would be better, after a hard, bouncing touchdown, to get control (level), power up and reduce flaps, then climb out? With some limited flap training, I can understand how the increased flaps and decreased speed for landing are set for landing, and that applying power without reducing flaps, will make the plane pitch up (because of greater lift generated by the wing and flaps deployed). Too bad this happened on his first solo. Very good the student made it out without serious injury. I agree that the CFI's need to cover as many 'What ifs' (as I call them), to ensure the student has the background to call on should the unexpected happen, before signing off.
The flaps in this airplane, as with a the vast majority of modern GA airplanes (except bush planes, STOL planes, etc.), are electric. So, you can't just "get rid" of the flaps, because they move too slowly for that to be an effective strategy. Also, you can't effectively "level out", because powered planes have more drag than gliders, so you're constantly losing energy and would only have a second or two of level flight if you started at typical touchdown speeds. There are two ways to save a bounced landing. The first is to use a touch of power to arrest your descent, then try again. The second, safer way is to go to full power and go around. Yes, you're going to get a pretty heavy nose-up moment at full power in landing configuration, but you should have practiced that multiple times before you're allowed to solo so you'd be ready for it. Once you've established a positive rate of climb, you can start retracting flaps one notch at a time.
It is not the touch and goes he needed to improove....it would be the lack of go-around training that he needed. Before every student initial solo, they should make several go arounds before solo flight...so the go around is fresh on the brain. Full power and full nose up trim will get them every time.
This is exactly why hobbies that can easily become life and death are not for everyone. The amount of children that are being rushed through schools is ridiculous all so someone can get their hours as q CFI or bank on students
Since the flaps are down and the throttle is closed, the plane will continue to lose airspeed due to the drag of the flaps and lack of thrust. After a bounce, the elevator might not have enough authority to prevent a second (and generally worse) bounce. You must add some power to regain some of the lost airspeed before attempting to touch down again. If you go to full throttle to do a go-around, the flaps are going to make the nose pitch up. You have to push forward on the yoke pretty hard while raising the flaps to 10 or 20 degrees and then trim the plane for a safe climb speed. Looks like his instructor never had him practice going around with full flaps at 1.3x the stall speed.
The school solution to go around after bouncing when lots of runway remains for a second, perhaps soft field type, landing leads to many unnecessary go arounds. The ACS test requirement to first establish a positive rate of climb on go around leads to high pitch attitudes without the required (for climb) zoom reserve airspeed. Wolfgang taught us years ago about the law of the roller coaster. On go around, airspeed is much more critical than positive rate of climb. And as in normal takeoff, thousands of feet of free ground effect energy is given up by pitching up early. I understand the need for certification standards, but if we just teach flying first the outcome of the maneuver is not in doubt.
My flight school taught to go around after a bounce because of the risk of porpoising. But when I soloed I kind of ignored some of that advice. I think if you bounce sufficiently enough you should probably go around because you do risk a nose gear collapse or a prop strike if you try to salvage it. If you simply made a hard landing with some bounce, just keep the nose up, add maybe a little power, and salvage it that way. If you bounced enough to make your teeth rattle, I would suggest just going around before you make it worse.
You really need to know how to do a go-around properly, though. You're right that it's important to get students out of the instinctive reflex of pitching up and instead pick up airspeed and raise one notch immediately to assist in that.
@@aviation_nut The round out and hold off technique gives up a very important control for exact glide angle and rate of descent. By closing the throttle, we eliminate dynamic throttle control. But we are going too fast. requiring a closed throttle. Decelerate on short final enough to sink with full flaps a bit causing us to need to bring the throttle into dynamic control of glide angle. Now coming into high ground effect, do not let the apparent rate of closure with the numbers speed up. Use the elevator to further decelerate to maintain an apparent brisk walk rate of closure with the numbers. 1,3 Vso is no longer needed for safety. Vso is no longer needed for safety. We are trying to slow to the very, very low ground effect stall airspeed. This is necessary to not bounce. This is necessary to quit flying in one inch ground effect. This adjusted apparent rate of closure, same as when we decelerate into an intersection with our car, allows us to touch down slowly and softly every time on the exact desired spot. We need to know how to land safely, managing energy, both potential and kinetic, properly.
Yes, we need to know how to emphasize airspeed over altitude and even use ground effect to go around properly. We also need to know how to take off properly, safely using ground effect to accelerate to cruise airspeed when thousands of feet of runway remain. Neither Vx nor Vy are ever appropriate on long runways and the concept/requirement to pitch up early while slow is the beginning of the problem. The principle, the law of the roller coaster, says this is a gross error. Airspeed is altitude. Yes, altitude is also airspeed, but we need potential energy of altitude in order to convert altitude into airspeed. If we have no potential energy of altitude, no altitude, we have to have fuel energy and ground effect energy to get potential energy of altitude most efficiently. We have to have airspeed first. Low altitude orientation is that airspeed, not altitude, is life.
To fly gliders (sailplanes) you're taught to actually recover from bounces and land further afield, and trained to not induce PIO/porpoising. It seems to work well. Sometimes being too reliant on having an engine to save you can lead to worse outcomes.
@@alirezanejati9712 Yes, certainly. And we have power available to ease down the second time. It is unfortunate we don't just teach energy management to begin with, but the best ACS book short field takeoff is actually the soft field technique using ground effect. And the best book short field landing is the soft field technique. If we're not landing until a thousand feet down a fine runway, we might as well ease it down with power. I actually teach hover taxi in airplanes to give students, more than just a second every landing experience with flying slow enough to land.
As a glider pilot, am I to understand that it would be better, after a hard, bouncing touchdown, to get control (level), power up and reduce flaps, then climb out? With some limited flap training, I can understand how the increased flaps and decreased speed for landing are set for landing, and that applying power without reducing flaps, will make the plane pitch up (because of greater lift generated by the wing and flaps deployed). Too bad this happened on his first solo. Very good the student made it out without serious injury. I agree that the CFI's need to cover as many 'What ifs' (as I call them), to ensure the student has the background to call on should the unexpected happen, before signing off.
The flaps in this airplane, as with a the vast majority of modern GA airplanes (except bush planes, STOL planes, etc.), are electric. So, you can't just "get rid" of the flaps, because they move too slowly for that to be an effective strategy. Also, you can't effectively "level out", because powered planes have more drag than gliders, so you're constantly losing energy and would only have a second or two of level flight if you started at typical touchdown speeds.
There are two ways to save a bounced landing. The first is to use a touch of power to arrest your descent, then try again. The second, safer way is to go to full power and go around. Yes, you're going to get a pretty heavy nose-up moment at full power in landing configuration, but you should have practiced that multiple times before you're allowed to solo so you'd be ready for it. Once you've established a positive rate of climb, you can start retracting flaps one notch at a time.
It is not the touch and goes he needed to improove....it would be the lack of go-around training that he needed. Before every student initial solo, they should make several go arounds before solo flight...so the go around is fresh on the brain. Full power and full nose up trim will get them every time.
After additional go-around and stall training will the student pilot be “more” or “less” nervous on his second solo attempt?
they landed on someone's porch? lucky they weren't sitting out on it
This is exactly why hobbies that can easily become life and death are not for everyone. The amount of children that are being rushed through schools is ridiculous all so someone can get their hours as q CFI or bank on students
Let’s add that this is all Obama’s fault!