This is when you know you don't need to hear anyone else's account of what happened. This is as close to the fact of what happened as you're going to get. Rare these days that it wasn't captured on camera by someone, but all the more valuable a reliable witness account of what exactly happened is.
Without a doubt, that was literally "just the facts ma'am." With a couple of witnesses like this on scene at every crash and the NTSB and all investigating agencies worldwide would have hugely easier jobs.
Juan, great review of what happened. I was the other pilot with Dustin. That was a tough thing to watch happen! Very sad for the families of the two men who perished in that crash.
I hope you're recovering from the trauma of seeing that and massive congratulation for your instinct to try and render aid and your work to contain a scene that could very easily and very quickly have become disastrous. As the saying goes your instinct to run towards a situation most people would run away from is what makes you that guy.
Does the location of the tall tree have anything to do with the crash? By that I mean, if the tree wasn't there would the "go-around" have been successful.
@@sjb3460 No, the problem was the 20 knot tailwind, the first touchdown point being midfield, 3 long bounces, and a very very late go around attempt with full flaps, heavy and from what I could hear the prop wasn't in the high RPM setting. and if you watch the follow up from Juan, you'll see actual video from earlier in June when he pilot did the same thing. super sad.
I knew the pilot. He was hangar neighbors to us in Phoenix. He was a great guy who had been flying his whole life. Always full of funny jokes and all around a great guy. This is a grim reminder that no matter how experienced you are it always try’s to bite us back. God bless these two
And now they’re saying that it wasn’t his first Rodeo, that he’d bounced in there once before. If that’s the case, maybe he wasn’t taking things in a serious vein, because he didn’t learn from the first time. Was it Ego-Fatigue-or Get-there-it is? Either way it happened, it was a sad day for everyone involved.
@@oldschoolmotorsickle get there itis for sure. He has an extensive resume of flying experience from small stuff up to dc-10s no matter your experience level we can all get dragged into these situations unfortunately it’s too easy.
Well said. Flying is like playing with alligators, you let your guard down for one second and you are done. I'm out of DVT as well, southwest T-hangars.
So sad. Rest in peace. Thank you to the eyewitness for the complete and difficult description, and to all who went running to do whatever they could to help. Tough day for everyone.
Full time Cessna T206H pilot here. If you've got full flaps going and cobb the power to that airplane to initiate a late go around, you will be cooked. That thing has some nasty pitch and adverse yaw in that configuration. RIP
Fighting stick pressure on full flaps, late go around with full power plus tailwind isn't a good position to be in. Landing downwind was the biggest error, and things continued to get worse...
I’m about to go fly in a T206H. I tell my guy full power, flaps 50%, and trim pressure off for an initial go around procedure. Only go zero flaps after airspeed has built up and positive rate of climb has been established. Your thoughts?
I don't speak English as my native language and I don't really get the reference, I realize it probably refers to cost savings / cheaping out but can you explain how it relates to this story?
@@perhansson6718 not in regards to savings, but rather realizing that if it is a bad day to fly due to wind, visibility, or if you're flat out tired. A credit card can get you a hotel room for the night, so you can fly tomorrow when the weather clears and you're rested.
My father and stepmother managed this airport for years. Beautiful place, but my father always said it can be very tricky, and not for inexperienced pilots. He spent the winters with me in Texas, and always had stories about fliers going in and out of Johnson creek and the problems some had. Sad story, sorry you had something to report.
I was at Johnson Creek earlier this year and a newer 206 with a belly pod bounced three times with the last one being at the last pile of white rocks. He powered up and squeaked by to the left of the tree. Many of us at camp that night talked about how close he came to this same result.
@@MattyEngland Doubt it. After one near death mistake, most pilots would tuck tail and get some mountain flying instruction before a re-do, that is if they're smart.
My instructor told me to never land or depart after 10 am in Idaho backcountry. I have lived by that and so far it’s been a blessing to me for 25 years flying private pilot
I didn’t do much mountain flying but my instructor always said to consider Time of Day, when landing/taking off in the mountains. For me it was early morning for the most part. Cooler temps, less winds.
My rule for Johnson Creek and the other mountain strips was to take off as soon as the frost melted from the wings and land no later than 11 am. 10 am is just more safe.
I flew into this airport in a Mooney Ovation of all things while taking the McCalls mountains and canyons flying course. It was a ton of fun. It sure was helpful to have an experienced mountain flying instructor in the right seat. And of course we landed there at about 9 in the morning. Prayers for the family of the deceased.
I am no pro, but I've landed there 30+ times in my 185, which given the landing gear, does tend to bounce. I think the most important thing to realize as a pilot is that if you hit the tree at the end of the runway at 30 kts, after any number of bounces, you're left with a damaged plane, ruined pride, but at least your life. We get so used to runways where go-arounds only require you to gain 20' of elevation that when confronted with this kind of runway we forget that smashing into the end of it is far safer than trying a go-around. Never worry about the plane or your pride -put 99% of the effort into preserving your life. Also worth mentioning is that a crash at 30 kts is 1/4 the energy you have to absorb than a crash at 60 kts which is 1/4 of the energy you have to absorb at 120 kts which they may have well been at given the tailwinds. My condolences to the families of those involved. This is just tragic, and like so many aviation accidents it's probably only because of minutes and a few kts and bad luck that they're not still with us. Good chance that if they'd landed 5 min earlier winds would have been different. Also, I've often landed at that airport downhill (opposite direction) over the house. It's a little trickier in some ways, but tailwind landings chew up a lot of runway real quick.
@@somealias-zs1bw We get used to flying the "fuselage" or view over the nose. But, with flaps, the "mean cord line" is far steeper than the view. Any but minimal pitch up is a stall pitch. The whole problem was landing with a tail wind. Followed by pushing the nose down "to get on the ground" which forced the porpoise. In the 1950's, with no automatic wind reporting, all pilots over-flew the runway to check the wind sock, to know which way to land.
I overflew the runway during my first PPL solo XC...last year. I couldn't get the wind, so I looked for the windsock. It's not like a skill that disappeared in the 50's since I learned it in 2023 @@mattbowers3541
That really sucks. I’ve never flown in the mountains. That being said, I doubt that I would have ever had these types of videos from experienced pilots like Juan to alert me to the nuanced information needed for safe operations in this environment. Thanks to all the podcasters that are getting this kind of information out to everyone!!!
Respectful thank you to all involved in presenting this grim, but articulate, factual witness description. Almost unheard-of, but so priceless in sorting through the usual, initial post-crash questions. The opening graphics of the descent and critical proximity-to-terrain, visual decision points, and absolute go/no-go rules for this strip, are all spot-on review/instructing moments. In Alaska (365 days-a-year in Anchorage's airspace), 206s are in constant, vital commercial & private use -- like a "single-engine C-130" ... powerful, tough, impressive ACL and reliable performance -- but always, hanging upon the pilot's conduct. Juan, your apex standard of respect and class, in presenting these short-notice videos -- with the NO BS!, credible input from the folks whom you include -- just continue to impress.
So tragic in such a scenic area of Idaho and at such an iconic Idaho backcountry airstrip. Bravo for the pilots on scene to respond and keep the fire in check even though the pilot and pax could not be rescued. Johnson Creek has been on my bucket list for years since retirement, for flying into with a qualified and experienced pilot, camping out and fly fishing for a few days. During my professional days pre-retirement, I got to know the Idaho Aero team very well and have much respect for their emphasis on safe backcountry flying. For this flatlander from the southeast, I got a real appreciation for flying in the mountains. It was my good fortune to enjoy a bit of Idaho flying with the Idaho Aero director back in 2015 when they hosted the annual conference of the National Association of State Aviation Officials, NASAO in Boise.
Charlie was the first person I met when I moved my Cessna to Deer Valley airport last summer. I could tell he was a great person from one hour long conversation we had. Prior to Deer Valley I was in California and I would regularly talk with my tie down neighbor. He told me many stories and once finished with “if you stick around in general aviation long enough you’ll see it take someones (that I know) life” didn’t think it would be that soon.
II am not a pilot; but, these videos and comments remind me of motorcyclist friends that all have a story of laying down their motorcycle at speed and being lucky to have minor injuries. In private piloting, it may not happen as often; but, the result appears to be more often catastrophic. I decided that neither was worth it to me; but, I totally understand the attraction of each hobby. The risk is pretty darn high (and so is the rewarding nature of the ride)
@@jimslimm6090 I do both. Rode right off the perfect corner on a windy California road. The next turn down the street another rider went down and was way worse off than me. I still had to get winched out of my ditch but I didn’t leave the scene in an ambulance. Still worth it. I’ve made my best memories on two wheels and in the sky.
Thanks Iam 82 and live in Idaho we have been in there plenty of times . soory for this .We had a cabin in that neck of the woods we had a 180 and a185 and 206 this sad that far down dont go around . .
Several research publications, including one from NASA way back in the 70s, reported on the proclivity of general aviation pilots for high-speed approaches i.e. landing way above the VRef speed. Three consecutive bounces are indicative of a high energy approach.
Appreciate the facts and details without calling the pilot reckless and plastering his face all over the thumbnail like other accident investigation channels do. You are the best and classiest Juan.
I have been flying to Johnson Creek since 1976; in that time there have been 18 fatal and multiple fatal accidents there . Not a place for the inexperienced to play
I landed there in my Extra 200 last month. I was lucky to not needing go around, but can you advise on correct go around procedure, is there a point on runway past which go around is prohibited?
@@ZhihengCao as is typical procedure, if you are not landed in the first one third of the runway at Johnson Creek go around. In the Summer heat and wind we do not fly at JC between 11am and 6 pm
@@Pilotc180 I didn't know that. In this accident tail wind was a contributing factor, is checking the wind sock the only way to know the win direction? No AWOS etc? But I think normally due to the steep valley the wind can only blow in one of the 2 directions?
Thanks Juan... The 206 and the Cessna 180 are my favorite single engine airplanes. I have about 1000 hours in a U206G and about 4000 hours in a Cessna 180 that I owned for 20 years. I took the Lori Mc class and have flown into Johnson Creek a few times. As Juan says, it's not a novice airport/approach and the winds can be fierce. Airspeed is critical. During my mountain training session they taught how important airspeed was/is. Sounds like the 206 was fast in a place you need to be at minimums, but eventually the NTSB will give us the answer. RIP to the pilot and crew who set out to have a great fun day and ended in tragedy. As the former owner of a 206 and 180, I am very sad to see these results.
I have flown 206s and found that on a go-around, you better have a strong right leg. That Stationair has a lot of pull to the left when you throttle up. Sad to see two lives lost. Thank you for the report.
Juan, thank you for presenting these videos the way that you do. This is extremely important information that must be in the front of our minds as GA pilots.
Sad to say, but Mr Browne is being forced to make far too many of these post-Mortem type of videos. We can only hope that his efforts find their audience, which is EVERY GA pilot. Flyers: Study-Train-Repeat.
My mountain flying pre-landing briefing always includes a discussion that if we're going to go around, we're going around early. If we're short final and not on speed and on glide slope we're not going to try to "just see if we can make it work". We're just going to go around and do it again. With high density altitude, it's extremely easy to end up fast and high and there is often rising terrain off the departure end.
Yep, your visual sight-picture changes radically with a high density altitude situation. Airspeed (indicated) remains same-same, but suddenly the ground speed looks crazy-fast.
Huge respect for that witness and responder. One of the best eye witness report I have heard, also reacting in a good way in these days (some may have just stand looking and filming the fire, not trying to DO something).
Back in the early 1970s I was a young flight instructor. I had a Cessna 150 n6117g that I used for student training. A man came to the airport with a request to land on a grass strip. He had a private certificate that he earned as a member of a military flying club while stationed overseas at I believe the Philippines. He had never flew in and out of a strip smaller than 8,000’by 200’. This fellow had a good touch with the airplane so I decided to take him in to a very challenging short rough grass strip. This strip was so rough that on the takeoff roll the plane would become airborne two or three times before it was ready to fly. I did the first touch and go so my student could get an idea of how rough the strip was. I then turned control of the airplane over to him. Since he was doing such a good job I relaxed and maybe just a little too relaxed. He made a very good approach and touched down in the correct area leaving plenty of room to complete the touch and go. He added full power for the go part of the touch and go and on the first big bump we became airborne and instead of letting the airplane settle back to the runway he held it off. We were now flying along in ground effect not climbing just eating up what was remaining of a very short runway. By the time I processed what was happening it appeared a crash was imminent. My first impulse was to cut the power and crash into the trees as slow as possible. What I did was take control lower the nose flying straight at the trees as long as my nerves would let me. We barely cleared the tree tops with the stall warning horn blaring. As soon as I could speak without my voice quivering and my hand shaking I explained what happened. After giving my student a thorough briefing on ground effect he proceeded to make four or five near perfect touch and goes. I learned to never get too relaxed flying especially instructing.
These sorts of incidents on Idaho Backcountry strips make me so sad. in the 90s when Galen Hanselman was compiling data for "fly Idaho" my dad and I regularly flew into a lot of these strips with him. Just for fun, just for the day,just for experience. Galen was a lifelong friend, an experienced, diligent and safe pilot and someone I trusted implicitly with my life and safety.... But a person can't control everything... And as much as we loved those flights my dad and I made the decision that the risk was just too high, even with one of the best pilots in the state.... And so... We quit going together at first... And then cut our individual trips down to a minimum. Not because of the pilot, but because of the risk. Galen flew tens of thousands more flights and wrote 3 more books and in all that time only had one accident of significance and walked away from it. But I can just hear him as if it was yesterday saying... Don't take chances, don't let your guard down and don't take anything for granted because these places will get you... And he was very very correct. I'm always so sorry to hear about these accidents because truly, these Backcountry strips are such amazing and beautiful places... But people should be mindful of the skill needed and the risks posed because sadly the odds are generally not in your favor...
Used to Live in McCall. It's got a disproportionately high population of flyers. There are a couple very fine instruction programs at the McCall airport specializing in mountain flying. Idaho has done a terrific job over the decades developing back-country venues. One would be well advised to go into McCall, get a couple hours ground school and then some mountain airmanship practicum with the local instructors. That's a nice vacation in-and-of itself. I'm a Conservative conservationist and never took objection to trees; however, that tree has got to go.
I asked another commenter if the tree's height and location had anything to do with a bad decision to attempt a "go-around". Ambulance chasing attorneys make billions suing on behalf of the careless, the stupid and those cursed with bad luck.
I added that quote to my list of quotes that I keep on my phone. It’s the second one I’ve put in there from Juan Brown. First was “Don’t do anything dumb, dangerous, or different.”
Another great video Juan. RIP to the pilot and passenger. I have been into Johnson Creek many times with Cubs, 180/185’s, and even a Bonanza a time or two. Like you have pointed out, it’s highly recommended to be in by noon due to winds and out early to minimize the effects of density altitude. When it comes to currency, I treat mountain flying the same as my corporate flying, which means regular and frequent recurrent training. I recommend Lori MacNichol’s Mountain Flying Seminars in McCall.
Good report Juan Browne. I grew up and began flying in the mountains of east Kentucky. Some very treacherous strips and conditions existed. A lot of fatalities in my home airport of Hazard. Fortunately we helped build a new airport on top of the mountain with adequate length and two paved runways. Seen a lot of bad things at the old narrow strip beside the riverbank. A river and overshots were generally contributing factors along with inexperience. Go arounds were almost impossible given the terrain. We never had the elevation this palace does but none the less experience was much needed to arrive safe. Sorry to see this.
I landed at Johnson Creek a few years ago… these airstrips are no joke-there is no margin for error, and the terrain that needs to be overflown just to get there is inhospitable.
I have flown an A-36, a Husky, a Super Cub, and my Liberty bi-plane in and out of Johnson Creek multiple times. Something I have observed is that while the “Go-Around” is common, it is rarely done early enough. The determination should and can be made on the base leg. It should be clear to anyone flying that they are too high and/or too fast. If this is not possible due to pilot experience, I recommend training until it is absolutely ingrained. The only time for a late go-around is if someone or something pulls out in front of you on the runway. In this case, as my PIC-rated wife pointed out, the pilot would have been better off crashing g at low speed off the end than stalling and possible spinning into a rock pile. God be with those that perished, and with their loved ones. Let’s do better, people.
Wow very informative video Juan~. That Idaho backcountry turbulence is no joke. By the time I finished a 6 month assignment requiring back and forth flights between several ID and WA locations with these conditions, I said never again! It really got to me. I went through a similar feeling diving in deep Pacific Ocean water- I freaked out one random day, after great dives for 7 out of the prior 10 days. During this day’s dive, I realized for all intents and purposes, that the deep water I found myself in, seriously felt as though it was trying to push me down as opposed to allowing me to freely glide up to the surface easily. I never dove again, developing claustrophobia after a 50 year lifetime of no phobias. The mind can be a beautiful thing, or an effing nuisance! Plus getting old SUCKS. Signed- soon to be 64 🎉🙃
I had a mild panic attack inside a wreck (RMS Rhone, the wreck they used for the movie 'The Deep') at night. Never developed any phobias from it, but I know the feeling. It's weird how time compresses when it happens. By the time I got my head back on straight, It was time to surface. Twenty minutes went by like it was twenty seconds. It was wise of you to realize your limitations and end your diving. If you're not comfortable and confident (realistically confident), then you shouldn't be doing it.
That happened to me too, at about 105' depth, could feel it sucking me down. At that depth, we went back up to about 75' for a few minutes, and then a little more, and then surface. But, air runs out quick when you are doing deep dives, as well as compression on everything making you sink. I'm in McCall, and go to Johnson Creek, and over elk summit a lot (but on a motorcycle). Crazy winds, especially these hot smoked out dry fire wind summer days lately. Bummer for that pilot and his family/friends.
I once did Lake Champlain near Burlington, Vermont. Lots of lift during summer when hotter. Either bring up the flaps right away or go into the large lake.
I am based out of Deer Valley and my first time into Johnson Creek we ran into Blanco while trekking up to the bath tub on the side of the mountain, I think it was May of 2021. Can't pass on the irony of now reading about this accident on his channel. Very sad and depressing.
I wonder how much the pressure of landing in front of other pilots fed into this. Pride and not wanting to have to go-around in front of your peers can be a pretty strong motivator to make bad choices.
I'm wondering what happened with the second of 2 events we had near the Hawthorne, CA airport last Thursday night. It blows my mind that we had a "two-fer" of unrelated events both off the same airport. First was the Robinson 44 helicopter N25PV that did an emergency landing on the southbound 110 freeway about 3 miles ENE of the airport with three people on board. Everyone was fine, a local heavy tow company took the pretty bird home in one piece, made a video of it, and even talked with the pilot. Second was the Piper PA24 N558CP that crashed and burned less than a mile WSW of the airport while on approach. It ended up destroyed in the street between the Marriott hotels and City Hall. The two people on board were taken to the hospital in critical condition. I hope they recover OK, but no one seems to know what went wrong with that one. My guess is that it was a controlled flight into terrain. Other than some interviews with the people who helped them escape the wreckage, and a street lamp needed replacing, there's been no information. Perhaps the most important fact is that the pilot avoided hitting the hotels, or anyone on the ground. They say pilots should avoid the "impossible turn," and "look for the nearest field," but around this airport in densely populated Los Angeles County, there is no open field.
@@EXROBOWIDOW I had been wondering about these HHR incidents. Got my private there and worked at the FBO during the summers. Do you know whether the Comanche getting established on left the downwind for 25 on approach, or had it just departed from 25 and was making a left turn out? Or were there reverse ops on runway 7 at the time?
I don’t know any pilots who would think negatively of someone doing a go-around. Just the opposite actually. I know I’d fully respect the decision to go around.
Oh gosh. My cousin is a retired SJ, who wound up running the hotshot operations out of McCall. I remember him mentioning that takeoffs were good, but you were better off taking a bus to get back,
I feel really bad for pilots that fly into Idaho and try to land in the backcountry strips with no prior mountain/canyon training or experience. The SOP for Johnson Creek states a decision height of 300 - 500 ft AGL, if you are beyond that you are committed to landing and you must accept the potential that you may damage and/or destroy your aircraft if you botch the approach and landing, but your odds of survival are much higher never attempting a go around after touching down. There are more than a few Idaho strips where there is no option to go around once the approach is started. You MUST be proficient at flying your aircraft on speed and you must be comfortable flying close to trees and rocks.
I flew skydivers in and out of a short, dirt runway with very high density altitude conditions. The C206 is a very forgiving and easy airplane to fly, but anyone can make a mistake, and in this case it was consequential. R.I.P.
Agree. The 206 is enormously capable for short field ops, even when heavy. Properly flown, in zero wind, a stock 206 can be down and stopped by the first picnic table at Johnson Creek-without jamming the brakes. That’s about 600’ from the threshold. I’ve done just that, repeatedly, with 4 seats full, full bags, and half tanks. It appears that this tragedy was a product of multiple, massive failures of judgment and airmanship, likely beginning with a failure to take instruction from a qualified local CFI.
It's so odd that GA folks seem to not go around as often as they should. Of course I'm guilty of that too. When I got my TW endorsement at around 7,000 hours (mostly airline) my instructor commented that I go around a lot. I think the mentality of a go around being the expected outcome with a successful landing being extra is something that needs to be trained more. Absolutely not tooting my own horn here, I'm not even the best pilot in my house and I live alone.
That's amazing country, really reminded me of the airstrips in Papua New Guinea. Sad to hear the witness detailing the crash. Sort of thing that will stick with him for a long time.
Dad was a long time bush pilot in Alaska and Northwestern Canada, I will never forget his words of wisdom to me. "It's better to be late because you stayed on the ground then to be in the air wishing you were on the ground. A miserable day or two hold up for weather is better then pushing for weather." Dad's flying career started in the early 40s in his pre-teens and spanned 65 plus years, a stroke is what cut it short.
I am a low time (3,100 hrs) flat-lander GA pilot from near Phila. flying mostly a FG Saratoga. I have landed the Saratoga safely a dozen or more times at 3U2. I have never had to attempt a go-arund. I took some mountain flying instruction out of Buena Vista before flying in the mountains. Now I've flown through all the Continental Passes and landed at all the high airports in Colorado several times, in addition to some Idaho airports. Before you go, get Sparky Imeson's Mountain Flying Bible and do everything he tells you. Little known advice for mountain flying: NEVER depart with full tanks. I can easily fly 2,000' over the summit of Mt. Rainier wth half full tanks, but not easily when they are topped off. The Saratoga climbs much faster with half empty tanks, (saving 300 lbs of weight) especially when the DA is 12,000. I would never fly into 3U2 with more than half full tanks in the Saratoga. Most (95%) landings are made on RW17 and take offs on RW35 conditions permtting. I have never landed on RW35. Many down-winders are made on RW17, but I wouldn't attempt to land RW17 with higher than 10 - 12 knot downwind God bless the families of the victims of this unfortunate accident.
The Johnson Creek SOP states "Landing downstream to the north is NOT recommended. This is a request from the Bryant family who provided the land on which Johnson Creek Airport is located. Landings to the north should only be considered when wind or weather dictates that landing to the south would be unsafe." This could have target-fixated the pilot who likely didn't take a look at the windsock before deciding to land 17.
Not familiar with this airport or the procedures. But looking on satellite images at a pilot's view angle and checking elevations, it seems dogleg approaches following Johnson Creek to either runway would be advantageous and would avoid any downwind approaches. Would you know why that is not done? Thanks.
@@warren5699 Yes, it's to avoid another high-wing vs low-wing midair collision that killed both pilots a few years ago. Everyone flying the downwind leg before turning base limits (never eliminates) the chance two planes won't see each other.
Years ago I had a bounce situation at closer to sea level when flying at Orange County Airport in Montgomery. New York state. Was still new at flying and had forgotten to immediately bring up the flaps on toucn down wnich I did on the next go around with my instructor yelling at me over the radio.
Johnson Creek isn't that tough of an airstrip to land at. There are much riskier ones in the Idaho backcountry. But as friendly as Johnson Creek looks, it can still be dangerous if you are not on speed, too high, have a tailwind, and don't make the go around decision soon enough. This pilot's inexperience in this type of flying certainly will come out as a causal factor too.
Thx Juan and Dustin for an excellent eyewitness report...RIP and condolences to the guys that lost their lives. Glad Dustin and friends were able to contain the fire before help arrived.
I always treat every landing like a short field landing. And that means in a 172, stopped within 800 feet of the threshold. Saved my life a year ago with a dead stick landing in the mountains onto a gravel bar. while constantly practising that type of landing actually puts one more at risk than a regular touchdown, when the time comes and you need that skill, it makes something like Johnson Creek seem benign in a 172..
Kneeland Airport this year. Similar crash. New 206, the pilot was just starting a commercial career. Over the fence too hot, bounced several times on the runway (probably damaged the aircraft). Flew off the end of the runway, banked over and crashed. If you haven't landed at that airport, should go over and look at it. Almost like landing on an aircraft carrier.
I watched a bonanza go skidding by at about 2,500’ with the breaks on. He got stopped. Going around early is easy and leaves a lot of options at J creek. I think people don’t want to have to fly the approach that may have stressed them out. It’s a beautiful wide runway that is very safe with just a bit of training. So sad to have these peoples trip end in such tragedy
Sympathies to the families of those lost. Getting into that airport sounds akin to landing at Catalina from the north (over the cliff) for the first time, or trying to get into Big Bear on a hot summer day.
I flew C206 and 207 professionaly on charters for more than 800 hors years ago. The 206 is forgiving but doesn't like a go around with full flaps. You will be a test pilot if making such a mistake and you don't want to be on in the back country airports of Idaho.
Better to go around than go down. Situational awareness. JB I don’t have a PPL, but thanks to being an avid viewer of your channel, I believe that as a right seater, I could squawk 7700. Keep up the great reporting ✈️🤙🏻
My understanding is that Johnson Creek try to actively dissuade people from landing on 35, or taking off from 17, mostly to limit traffic over the Johnson house. I have to suspect that played a large part in the pilot's decision not to land on 35, and the subsequently fatal results. Things likely would have turned out very different with a headwind instead of a tailwind.
All the Blancolirio video I think “I could do that”. I’m not a pilot. I think I could learn to do that. Except this one. Watching Juan fly into that canyon and land made me realize that it takes A LOT of training and expertise to do what they do. Bravo. Sorry for the loss of the victims. RIP.
I flew in there as a passenger with the winds favoring 35. The groundskeeper go out of their way to scold you for not landing 17. I personally don't care what the groundskeeper does but admonishing pilots for using the proper wind runway to protect the house from noise isn't helping. Yes, we should all be respectful pilots around noise abatement where it's possible, but I'll favor safety over noise abatement any day of the week. Super sorry for the folks involved here - it's a beautiful area...
I tell ppl that my favorite scene in the original Twister movie was the closing credits and Eddie Van Halen playing a song called “Respect the Wind”. As a Colorado mountain resident, I am constantly amazed how the wind can go from light and variable to screaming out of the west-southwest in monsoon season. All daytime activities outside need to be done by noon
After my life-threatening health issue I sufferded after covid-19, now about 3-years ago, I no longer fly ( nor can I obtain a medical-certificate ). Thus I now fly Radio Control ( RC ) with my feet planted on the ground. I really enjoy it and run into other pilots like me. RC has greatly matured. I do have a healthy fleet of aircraft. 😊
I have flown into Johnson Creek a few times, camped out. Amazing experience. My advise: 1) Learn/review mountain high density altitude flying, winds (Low), Temps (morning), min weight, current skills. 2) Get standard procedures PDF on-line Idaho Transportation Dept Gov, Johnson Creek (3U2). Terrain / obstacles (trees) North & South, not a true one-way strip, but heed the PDF recommended Ops; Apt Elv 5000' and Strip is 3400ft long smooth well maintained grass.
It feels like so many people should have seen JB’s channels by now and the message is always the same. Be proficient, have a bug out plan and stick to it. It’s sobering to see the Swiss slices line up and the holes get you.
When I was flight instructing I was at the height of my light aircraft proficiency and I’m not sure I would have attempted that strip without so dual from someone who was very familiar with that airport.
I rode motorcycles for 55 years and a couple of hundred thousand milles with one accident, with a mild injury. I'm glad there was and is no 'channel' that details most motorcycle fatalities. Every time I start to feel these people are taking a lot of risk I remember, so did I. I think the situations are somewhat similar as to risk, trouble, and how participants deal with it. If they deal with it. The challenge of both is physical and mental. Many do it not despite the risk and trouble but because of the risk and trouble. The challenge and accomplishment.
Everyone has a risk versus reward equation to solve when traveling at speeds that can kill. There are so many factors involved. Unfortunately, the private pilot equation seems very complex; but, the motorcyclist equation comes in close behind.
@@bigjeff1291 I only quit riding 3 years ago at 70. That was 60% cost and 40% caution. I'm aware of my physical and cognitive decline. On the point it's worse now than some good old days. I have never thought in terms of the road and other traffic being any worse today than the past for motorcycles. It never enters my mind.
I have alot of time flying and instructing in the T206H on wheels and amphibians floats. It's a tank of an airplane and the go around can be scary if not executed correctly. A very common error I see is a complete lack of sufficient rudder input causing uncoordinated flight in the go around due to all the horsepower and change in attitude. It's very sad to hear this news and hopefully we can all learn something from it.
I'm not a GA pilot but I understand mountain flying and the crazy currents that flow thru them. I'm sorry the pilot/passengers lost their lives. Mountain flying and windswept valleys are for the highly experienced pilot.
What a tragedy. Cudos to the people on site ready to help and also suppress the fire. Thanks for sharing. Not the kind of airfield to be taken lightly!
Pitch for speed, throttle for climb/descent. How often do we hear of aircraft that are flying perfectly well pulled up into a stall while close to the ground? If you're lacking climb, fly Vx. In a 206 that's 69 knots. Much faster than landing configuration stall at 50 knots. If you're down near 50 then pushing nose down will make you climb at a higher angle, while giving more control.
We tell people “if you aren’t off by 11, pitch your tent” Please take these strips seriously. If you can’t spot land within 300’ from all sorts of patterns at home, you need to get to that point before you do these places.
Such a strong tailwind during approach to land would throw ground references way off. Even with the correct approach airspeed will result in an incredibly long ground roll.
Total respect for everyone that responded to this emergency.
Absolutely. Very fast action to try to help those inside and also reduce any spread of the fire. Hope those folks who saw this are doing ok
I’m sure even those that didn’t get to respond had a good reason 🙏
Now thats how you give a good witness account or statement, very good attention to detail you feel like you are seeing what he saw.
Also spelling out geometry for any reconstruction.
This is when you know you don't need to hear anyone else's account of what happened. This is as close to the fact of what happened as you're going to get. Rare these days that it wasn't captured on camera by someone, but all the more valuable a reliable witness account of what exactly happened is.
Definitely. I wish the witnesses strength in dealing with the trauma of the memory.
Also getting it early before any details can be lost. Its probably tough for him, but its a great show of airmanship to get that recorded.
Without a doubt, that was literally "just the facts ma'am."
With a couple of witnesses like this on scene at every crash and the NTSB and all investigating agencies worldwide would have hugely easier jobs.
Juan, great review of what happened. I was the other pilot with Dustin. That was a tough thing to watch happen! Very sad for the families of the two men who perished in that crash.
Sorry you had to witness that, I hope you’re doing well
I hope you're recovering from the trauma of seeing that and massive congratulation for your instinct to try and render aid and your work to contain a scene that could very easily and very quickly have become disastrous.
As the saying goes your instinct to run towards a situation most people would run away from is what makes you that guy.
Does the location of the tall tree have anything to do with the crash? By that I mean, if the tree wasn't there would the "go-around" have been successful.
@@sjb3460 unlikely but who knows
@@sjb3460 No, the problem was the 20 knot tailwind, the first touchdown point being midfield, 3 long bounces, and a very very late go around attempt with full flaps, heavy and from what I could hear the prop wasn't in the high RPM setting. and if you watch the follow up from Juan, you'll see actual video from earlier in June when he pilot did the same thing. super sad.
I knew the pilot. He was hangar neighbors to us in Phoenix. He was a great guy who had been flying his whole life. Always full of funny jokes and all around a great guy. This is a grim reminder that no matter how experienced you are it always try’s to bite us back. God bless these two
And now they’re saying that it wasn’t his first Rodeo, that he’d bounced in there once before. If that’s the case, maybe he wasn’t taking things in a serious vein, because he didn’t learn from the first time. Was it Ego-Fatigue-or Get-there-it is?
Either way it happened, it was a sad day for everyone involved.
@@oldschoolmotorsickle get there itis for sure. He has an extensive resume of flying experience from small stuff up to dc-10s no matter your experience level we can all get dragged into these situations unfortunately it’s too easy.
@@wordawg88DC-10s Sounds like he was an old fart too. I guess he forgot the important stuff.
Sorry for your loss.
Well said. Flying is like playing with alligators, you let your guard down for one second and you are done. I'm out of DVT as well, southwest T-hangars.
So sad. Rest in peace. Thank you to the eyewitness for the complete and difficult description, and to all who went running to do whatever they could to help. Tough day for everyone.
i bet the guy doing the video report is a great pilot, his attention to detail and communication is excellent.
He should be....he's been flying since 1884!!
@@JSBIRD69 He knew the Wright Brothers personally!
@@theburtseoniHe taught the Wright Brothers how to fly. And he learned from Chief Flying Hawk.
That’s what I thought
A wright bros reincarnate
Full time Cessna T206H pilot here. If you've got full flaps going and cobb the power to that airplane to initiate a late go around, you will be cooked. That thing has some nasty pitch and adverse yaw in that configuration. RIP
Yes 40deg full flap on the 206 is super powerful,probably needed passenger to be versed in raising flaps on a tough touchdown procedure.
Fighting stick pressure on full flaps, late go around with full power plus tailwind isn't a good position to be in.
Landing downwind was the biggest error, and things continued to get worse...
I’m about to go fly in a T206H. I tell my guy full power, flaps 50%, and trim pressure off for an initial go around procedure. Only go zero flaps after airspeed has built up and positive rate of climb has been established. Your thoughts?
@@mowtivatedmechanic1172 you're about to go tell the pilot how to fly his airplane? maybe im not getting the question your asking...
@@mowtivatedmechanic1172 20, 10, 0 (kill drag, over obstacles, climb speed) In a 707 you need 11 degrees flaps, or the slats will come up.
I really appreciated the statement that the biggest safety device you have is your credit card and sound judgement.
I don't speak English as my native language and I don't really get the reference, I realize it probably refers to cost savings / cheaping out but can you explain how it relates to this story?
@@perhansson6718 It allows you to decide not to fly and pay for the night in a hotel if conditions are not right for the flight.
@@perhansson6718 not in regards to savings, but rather realizing that if it is a bad day to fly due to wind, visibility, or if you're flat out tired. A credit card can get you a hotel room for the night, so you can fly tomorrow when the weather clears and you're rested.
Simply put, it means that sometimes it's better to pull out the credit card, get a hotel room, and wait for better conditions.
@@johnwagers8190 Thank you!
My father and stepmother managed this airport for years. Beautiful place, but my father always said it can be very tricky, and not for inexperienced pilots. He spent the winters with me in Texas, and always had stories about fliers going in and out of Johnson creek and the problems some had. Sad story, sorry you had something to report.
I was at Johnson Creek earlier this year and a newer 206 with a belly pod bounced three times with the last one being at the last pile of white rocks. He powered up and squeaked by to the left of the tree. Many of us at camp that night talked about how close he came to this same result.
Same guy perhaps?
@@MattyEnglandif someone has a flight aware subscription we could get that information. his tail number is N712AM
@@MattyEngland Doubt it. After one near death mistake, most pilots would tuck tail and get some mountain flying instruction before a re-do, that is if they're smart.
Got an approximate date?
I am betting it's the same guy
My instructor told me to never land or depart after 10 am in Idaho backcountry. I have lived by that and so far it’s been a blessing to me for 25 years flying private pilot
I didn’t do much mountain flying but my instructor always said to consider Time of Day, when landing/taking off in the mountains. For me it was early morning for the most part. Cooler temps, less winds.
My rule for Johnson Creek and the other mountain strips was to take off as soon as the frost melted from the wings and land no later than 11 am. 10 am is just more safe.
I flew into this airport in a Mooney Ovation of all things while taking the McCalls mountains and canyons flying course. It was a ton of fun. It sure was helpful to have an experienced mountain flying instructor in the right seat. And of course we landed there at about 9 in the morning. Prayers for the family of the deceased.
That witness account is amazing. Almost like a trained investigative report. Good report from you, too, Juan.
I am no pro, but I've landed there 30+ times in my 185, which given the landing gear, does tend to bounce. I think the most important thing to realize as a pilot is that if you hit the tree at the end of the runway at 30 kts, after any number of bounces, you're left with a damaged plane, ruined pride, but at least your life. We get so used to runways where go-arounds only require you to gain 20' of elevation that when confronted with this kind of runway we forget that smashing into the end of it is far safer than trying a go-around. Never worry about the plane or your pride -put 99% of the effort into preserving your life. Also worth mentioning is that a crash at 30 kts is 1/4 the energy you have to absorb than a crash at 60 kts which is 1/4 of the energy you have to absorb at 120 kts which they may have well been at given the tailwinds.
My condolences to the families of those involved. This is just tragic, and like so many aviation accidents it's probably only because of minutes and a few kts and bad luck that they're not still with us. Good chance that if they'd landed 5 min earlier winds would have been different.
Also, I've often landed at that airport downhill (opposite direction) over the house. It's a little trickier in some ways, but tailwind landings chew up a lot of runway real quick.
That strong pitch up moment when you go full power with full flap still catches people off guard.
I don't think he stalled, he just initiated the go around at the end of the runway with rising terrain dead ahead.
@@somealias-zs1bw We get used to flying the "fuselage" or view over the nose. But, with flaps, the "mean cord line" is far steeper than the view. Any but minimal pitch up is a stall pitch.
The whole problem was landing with a tail wind. Followed by pushing the nose down "to get on the ground" which forced the porpoise.
In the 1950's, with no automatic wind reporting, all pilots over-flew the runway to check the wind sock, to know which way to land.
And possibly a bunch of trim
@@somealias-zs1bw I always wondered, what is the correct go around procedure in Johnson Creek?
I overflew the runway during my first PPL solo XC...last year. I couldn't get the wind, so I looked for the windsock. It's not like a skill that disappeared in the 50's since I learned it in 2023 @@mattbowers3541
That really sucks. I’ve never flown in the mountains. That being said, I doubt that I would have ever had these types of videos from experienced pilots like Juan to alert me to the nuanced information needed for safe operations in this environment.
Thanks to all the podcasters that are getting this kind of information out to everyone!!!
Respectful thank you to all involved in presenting this grim, but articulate, factual witness description. Almost unheard-of, but so priceless in sorting through the usual, initial post-crash questions. The opening graphics of the descent and critical proximity-to-terrain, visual decision points, and absolute go/no-go rules for this strip, are all spot-on review/instructing moments. In Alaska (365 days-a-year in Anchorage's airspace), 206s are in constant, vital commercial & private use -- like a "single-engine C-130" ... powerful, tough, impressive ACL and reliable performance -- but always, hanging upon the pilot's conduct. Juan, your apex standard of respect and class, in presenting these short-notice videos -- with the NO BS!, credible input from the folks whom you include -- just continue to impress.
So tragic in such a scenic area of Idaho and at such an iconic Idaho backcountry airstrip. Bravo for the pilots on scene to respond and keep the fire in check even though the pilot and pax could not be rescued. Johnson Creek has been on my bucket list for years since retirement, for flying into with a qualified and experienced pilot, camping out and fly fishing for a few days. During my professional days pre-retirement, I got to know the Idaho Aero team very well and have much respect for their emphasis on safe backcountry flying. For this flatlander from the southeast, I got a real appreciation for flying in the mountains. It was my good fortune to enjoy a bit of Idaho flying with the Idaho Aero director back in 2015 when they hosted the annual conference of the National Association of State Aviation Officials, NASAO in Boise.
Charlie was the first person I met when I moved my Cessna to Deer Valley airport last summer. I could tell he was a great person from one hour long conversation we had.
Prior to Deer Valley I was in California and I would regularly talk with my tie down neighbor. He told me many stories and once finished with “if you stick around in general aviation long enough you’ll see it take someones (that I know) life” didn’t think it would be that soon.
II am not a pilot; but, these videos and comments remind me of motorcyclist friends that all have a story of laying down their motorcycle at speed and being lucky to have minor injuries. In private piloting, it may not happen as often; but, the result appears to be more often catastrophic. I decided that neither was worth it to me; but, I totally understand the attraction of each hobby. The risk is pretty darn high (and so is the rewarding nature of the ride)
@@jimslimm6090 I do both. Rode right off the perfect corner on a windy California road. The next turn down the street another rider went down and was way worse off than me. I still had to get winched out of my ditch but I didn’t leave the scene in an ambulance. Still worth it. I’ve made my best memories on two wheels and in the sky.
Thanks Iam 82 and live in Idaho we have been in there plenty of times . soory for this .We had a cabin in that neck of the woods we had a 180 and a185 and 206 this sad that far down dont go around . .
Excellent report Browny! Thank you for flying it too. It gave me a perfect feel for the terrain and location. Keep up the GREAT job!
Several research publications, including one from NASA way back in the 70s, reported on the proclivity of general aviation pilots for high-speed approaches i.e. landing way above the VRef speed. Three consecutive bounces are indicative of a high energy approach.
Agreed, seems he was heavy with cargo, with a 20-knot tail wind at a higher altitude runway... not a good combo.
@gunterchain If you give me your email address, I can send you pdfs of both research studies
Appreciate the facts and details without calling the pilot reckless and plastering his face all over the thumbnail like other accident investigation channels do. You are the best and classiest Juan.
I have been flying to Johnson Creek since 1976; in that time there have been 18 fatal and multiple fatal accidents there . Not a place for the inexperienced to play
I landed there in my Extra 200 last month. I was lucky to not needing go around, but can you advise on correct go around procedure, is there a point on runway past which go around is prohibited?
@@ZhihengCao as is typical procedure, if you are not landed in the first one third of the runway at Johnson Creek go around. In the Summer heat and wind we do not fly at JC between 11am and 6 pm
@@Pilotc180 I didn't know that. In this accident tail wind was a contributing factor, is checking the wind sock the only way to know the win direction? No AWOS etc? But I think normally due to the steep valley the wind can only blow in one of the 2 directions?
Thanks Juan... The 206 and the Cessna 180 are my favorite single engine airplanes. I have about 1000 hours in a U206G and about 4000 hours in a Cessna 180 that I owned for 20 years. I took the Lori Mc class and have flown into Johnson Creek a few times. As Juan says, it's not a novice airport/approach and the winds can be fierce. Airspeed is critical. During my mountain training session they taught how important airspeed was/is. Sounds like the 206 was fast in a place you need to be at minimums, but eventually the NTSB will give us the answer. RIP to the pilot and crew who set out to have a great fun day and ended in tragedy. As the former owner of a 206 and 180, I am very sad to see these results.
I have flown 206s and found that on a go-around, you better have a strong right leg. That Stationair has a lot of pull to the left when you throttle up. Sad to see two lives lost. Thank you for the report.
Juan, thank you for presenting these videos the way that you do. This is extremely important information that must be in the front of our minds as GA pilots.
Sad to say, but Mr Browne is being forced to make far too many of these post-Mortem type of videos. We can only hope that his efforts find their audience, which is EVERY GA pilot.
Flyers: Study-Train-Repeat.
My mountain flying pre-landing briefing always includes a discussion that if we're going to go around, we're going around early. If we're short final and not on speed and on glide slope we're not going to try to "just see if we can make it work". We're just going to go around and do it again. With high density altitude, it's extremely easy to end up fast and high and there is often rising terrain off the departure end.
Yep, your visual sight-picture changes radically with a high density altitude situation. Airspeed (indicated) remains same-same, but suddenly the ground speed looks crazy-fast.
@@oldschoolmotorsickleThen add a tail wind to that in this case and the ground speed must have been very high.
The temptation to go around even with 1/3 of runway left rather than overrun the strip is very powerful.
Huge respect for that witness and responder. One of the best eye witness report I have heard, also reacting in a good way in these days (some may have just stand looking and filming the fire, not trying to DO something).
Back in the early 1970s I was a young flight instructor. I had a Cessna 150 n6117g that I used for student training. A man came to the airport with a request to land on a grass strip. He had a private certificate that he earned as a member of a military flying club while stationed overseas at I believe the Philippines. He had never flew in and out of a strip smaller than 8,000’by 200’. This fellow had a good touch with the airplane so I decided to take him in to a very challenging short rough grass strip. This strip was so rough that on the takeoff roll the plane would become airborne two or three times before it was ready to fly. I did the first touch and go so my student could get an idea of how rough the strip was. I then turned control of the airplane over to him. Since he was doing such a good job I relaxed and maybe just a little too relaxed. He made a very good approach and touched down in the correct area leaving plenty of room to complete the touch and go. He added full power for the go part of the touch and go and on the first big bump we became airborne and instead of letting the airplane settle back to the runway he held it off. We were now flying along in ground effect not climbing just eating up what was remaining of a very short runway. By the time I processed what was happening it appeared a crash was imminent. My first impulse was to cut the power and crash into the trees as slow as possible. What I did was take control lower the nose flying straight at the trees as long as my nerves would let me. We barely cleared the tree tops with the stall warning horn blaring. As soon as I could speak without my voice quivering and my hand shaking I explained what happened. After giving my student a thorough briefing on ground effect he proceeded to make four or five near perfect touch and goes. I learned to never get too relaxed flying especially instructing.
These sorts of incidents on Idaho Backcountry strips make me so sad. in the 90s when Galen Hanselman was compiling data for "fly Idaho" my dad and I regularly flew into a lot of these strips with him. Just for fun, just for the day,just for experience. Galen was a lifelong friend, an experienced, diligent and safe pilot and someone I trusted implicitly with my life and safety....
But a person can't control everything... And as much as we loved those flights my dad and I made the decision that the risk was just too high, even with one of the best pilots in the state.... And so... We quit going together at first... And then cut our individual trips down to a minimum. Not because of the pilot, but because of the risk.
Galen flew tens of thousands more flights and wrote 3 more books and in all that time only had one accident of significance and walked away from it.
But I can just hear him as if it was yesterday saying... Don't take chances, don't let your guard down and don't take anything for granted because these places will get you... And he was very very correct.
I'm always so sorry to hear about these accidents because truly, these Backcountry strips are such amazing and beautiful places... But people should be mindful of the skill needed and the risks posed because sadly the odds are generally not in your favor...
Used to Live in McCall. It's got a disproportionately high population of flyers. There are a couple very fine instruction programs at the McCall airport specializing in mountain flying. Idaho has done a terrific job over the decades developing back-country venues.
One would be well advised to go into McCall, get a couple hours ground school and then some mountain airmanship practicum with the local instructors. That's a nice vacation in-and-of itself.
I'm a Conservative conservationist and never took objection to trees; however, that tree has got to go.
I might be a slightly more leftist conservationist, and I AGREE, that tree has got to go.
I asked another commenter if the tree's height and location had anything to do with a bad decision to attempt a "go-around". Ambulance chasing attorneys make billions suing on behalf of the careless, the stupid and those cursed with bad luck.
13:06 Man, that’s an excellent line! So many people have forced themselves into trouble when they should have just waited until morning.
I added that quote to my list of quotes that I keep on my phone. It’s the second one I’ve put in there from Juan Brown. First was “Don’t do anything dumb, dangerous, or different.”
Another great video Juan. RIP to the pilot and passenger. I have been into Johnson Creek many times with Cubs, 180/185’s, and even a Bonanza a time or two. Like you have pointed out, it’s highly recommended to be in by noon due to winds and out early to minimize the effects of density altitude. When it comes to currency, I treat mountain flying the same as my corporate flying, which means regular and frequent recurrent training. I recommend Lori MacNichol’s Mountain Flying Seminars in McCall.
Good report Juan Browne. I grew up and began flying in the mountains of east Kentucky. Some very treacherous strips and conditions existed. A lot of fatalities in my home airport of Hazard. Fortunately we helped build a new airport on top of the mountain with adequate length and two paved runways. Seen a lot of bad things at the old narrow strip beside the riverbank. A river and overshots were generally contributing factors along with inexperience. Go arounds were almost impossible given the terrain. We never had the elevation this palace does but none the less experience was much needed to arrive safe. Sorry to see this.
Heckofa name for that Mountain airfield:
Hazard
I landed at Johnson Creek a few years ago… these airstrips are no joke-there is no margin for error, and the terrain that needs to be overflown just to get there is inhospitable.
Damn, I live a few miles from Deer Valley and got my PPL there in 2004. A heartbreaker!
Thank you, Juan, for another somber report on another civilian airplane crash.
I have flown an A-36, a Husky, a Super Cub, and my Liberty bi-plane in and out of Johnson Creek multiple times. Something I have observed is that while the “Go-Around” is common, it is rarely done early enough. The determination should and can be made on the base leg. It should be clear to anyone flying that they are too high and/or too fast. If this is not possible due to pilot experience, I recommend training until it is absolutely ingrained. The only time for a late go-around is if someone or something pulls out in front of you on the runway. In this case, as my PIC-rated wife pointed out, the pilot would have been better off crashing g at low speed off the end than stalling and possible spinning into a rock pile. God be with those that perished, and with their loved ones. Let’s do better, people.
Very good to have a pilot rated wife, may save your life someday.
Wow very informative video Juan~.
That Idaho backcountry turbulence is no joke. By the time I finished a 6 month assignment requiring back and forth flights between several ID and WA locations with these conditions, I said never again!
It really got to me.
I went through a similar feeling diving in deep Pacific Ocean water- I freaked out one random day, after great dives for 7 out of the prior 10 days. During this day’s dive, I realized for all intents and purposes, that the deep water I found myself in, seriously felt as though it was trying to push me down as opposed to allowing me to freely glide up to the surface easily. I never dove again, developing claustrophobia after a 50 year lifetime of no phobias. The mind can be a beautiful thing, or an effing nuisance! Plus getting old SUCKS. Signed- soon to be 64 🎉🙃
I had a mild panic attack inside a wreck (RMS Rhone, the wreck they used for the movie 'The Deep') at night. Never developed any phobias from it, but I know the feeling. It's weird how time compresses when it happens. By the time I got my head back on straight, It was time to surface. Twenty minutes went by like it was twenty seconds. It was wise of you to realize your limitations and end your diving. If you're not comfortable and confident (realistically confident), then you shouldn't be doing it.
That happened to me too, at about 105' depth, could feel it sucking me down. At that depth, we went back up to about 75' for a few minutes, and then a little more, and then surface. But, air runs out quick when you are doing deep dives, as well as compression on everything making you sink. I'm in McCall, and go to Johnson Creek, and over elk summit a lot (but on a motorcycle). Crazy winds, especially these hot smoked out dry fire wind summer days lately. Bummer for that pilot and his family/friends.
Thanks!
I once did Lake Champlain near Burlington, Vermont. Lots of lift during summer when hotter. Either bring up the flaps right away or go into the large lake.
You made me comment when you pulled out the credit card! Yes ! Especially as a father! You hit the nail on the head!
The most accurate (detailed, I should say) eye witness account I've ever seen
I am based out of Deer Valley and my first time into Johnson Creek we ran into Blanco while trekking up to the bath tub on the side of the mountain, I think it was May of 2021. Can't pass on the irony of now reading about this accident on his channel. Very sad and depressing.
I wonder how much the pressure of landing in front of other pilots fed into this. Pride and not wanting to have to go-around in front of your peers can be a pretty strong motivator to make bad choices.
I'm wondering what happened with the second of 2 events we had near the Hawthorne, CA airport last Thursday night. It blows my mind that we had a "two-fer" of unrelated events both off the same airport.
First was the Robinson 44 helicopter N25PV that did an emergency landing on the southbound 110 freeway about 3 miles ENE of the airport with three people on board. Everyone was fine, a local heavy tow company took the pretty bird home in one piece, made a video of it, and even talked with the pilot.
Second was the Piper PA24 N558CP that crashed and burned less than a mile WSW of the airport while on approach. It ended up destroyed in the street between the Marriott hotels and City Hall. The two people on board were taken to the hospital in critical condition. I hope they recover OK, but no one seems to know what went wrong with that one. My guess is that it was a controlled flight into terrain. Other than some interviews with the people who helped them escape the wreckage, and a street lamp needed replacing, there's been no information. Perhaps the most important fact is that the pilot avoided hitting the hotels, or anyone on the ground.
They say pilots should avoid the "impossible turn," and "look for the nearest field," but around this airport in densely populated Los Angeles County, there is no open field.
There is no stigma in going around, is there? There shouldn't be.
@@EXROBOWIDOW I had been wondering about these HHR incidents. Got my private there and worked at the FBO during the summers.
Do you know whether the Comanche getting established on left the downwind for 25 on approach, or had it just departed from 25 and was making a left turn out? Or were there reverse ops on runway 7 at the time?
Well I hope the popularity of this channel makes people think "Is this decision going to make me the unfortunate subject of a Juan Browne analysis?"
I don’t know any pilots who would think negatively of someone doing a go-around. Just the opposite actually. I know I’d fully respect the decision to go around.
Oh gosh. My cousin is a retired SJ, who wound up running the hotshot operations out of McCall. I remember him mentioning that takeoffs were good, but you were better off taking a bus to get back,
I feel really bad for pilots that fly into Idaho and try to land in the backcountry strips with no prior mountain/canyon training or experience. The SOP for Johnson Creek states a decision height of 300 - 500 ft AGL, if you are beyond that you are committed to landing and you must accept the potential that you may damage and/or destroy your aircraft if you botch the approach and landing, but your odds of survival are much higher never attempting a go around after touching down. There are more than a few Idaho strips where there is no option to go around once the approach is started. You MUST be proficient at flying your aircraft on speed and you must be comfortable flying close to trees and rocks.
I flew skydivers in and out of a short, dirt runway with very high density altitude conditions. The C206 is a very forgiving and easy airplane to fly, but anyone can make a mistake, and in this case it was consequential. R.I.P.
Agree. The 206 is enormously capable for short field ops, even when heavy. Properly flown, in zero wind, a stock 206 can be down and stopped by the first picnic table at Johnson Creek-without jamming the brakes. That’s about 600’ from the threshold. I’ve done just that, repeatedly, with 4 seats full, full bags, and half tanks. It appears that this tragedy was a product of multiple, massive failures of judgment and airmanship, likely beginning with a failure to take instruction from a qualified local CFI.
It's so odd that GA folks seem to not go around as often as they should. Of course I'm guilty of that too. When I got my TW endorsement at around 7,000 hours (mostly airline) my instructor commented that I go around a lot. I think the mentality of a go around being the expected outcome with a successful landing being extra is something that needs to be trained more. Absolutely not tooting my own horn here, I'm not even the best pilot in my house and I live alone.
"Expectation of landing". Always be prepared to go around.
That's amazing country, really reminded me of the airstrips in Papua New Guinea. Sad to hear the witness detailing the crash. Sort of thing that will stick with him for a long time.
Dad was a long time bush pilot in Alaska and Northwestern Canada, I will never forget his words of wisdom to me. "It's better to be late because you stayed on the ground then to be in the air wishing you were on the ground. A miserable day or two hold up for weather is better then pushing for weather."
Dad's flying career started in the early 40s in his pre-teens and spanned 65 plus years, a stroke is what cut it short.
I am a low time (3,100 hrs) flat-lander GA pilot from near Phila. flying mostly a FG Saratoga. I have landed the Saratoga safely a dozen or more times at 3U2. I have never had to attempt a go-arund. I took some mountain flying instruction out of Buena Vista before flying in the mountains. Now I've flown through all the Continental Passes and landed at all the high airports in Colorado several times, in addition to some Idaho airports. Before you go, get Sparky Imeson's Mountain Flying Bible and do everything he tells you. Little known advice for mountain flying: NEVER depart with full tanks. I can easily fly 2,000' over the summit of Mt. Rainier wth half full tanks, but not easily when they are topped off. The Saratoga climbs much faster with half empty tanks, (saving 300 lbs of weight) especially when the DA is 12,000. I would never fly into 3U2 with more than half full tanks in the Saratoga. Most (95%) landings are made on RW17 and take offs on RW35 conditions permtting. I have never landed on RW35. Many down-winders are made on RW17, but I wouldn't attempt to land RW17 with higher than 10 - 12 knot downwind God bless the families of the victims of this unfortunate accident.
The Johnson Creek SOP states "Landing downstream to the north is NOT recommended. This is a request from the Bryant family who provided the land on which Johnson Creek Airport is located. Landings to the north should only be considered when wind or weather dictates that landing to the south would be unsafe." This could have target-fixated the pilot who likely didn't take a look at the windsock before deciding to land 17.
Sounds like the wind DID dictate exactly that, he came too late and tried to force things on the "usual" runway.
Not familiar with this airport or the procedures. But looking on satellite images at a pilot's view angle and checking elevations, it seems dogleg approaches following Johnson Creek to either runway would be advantageous and would avoid any downwind approaches. Would you know why that is not done? Thanks.
@@warren5699 Yes, it's to avoid another high-wing vs low-wing midair collision that killed both pilots a few years ago. Everyone flying the downwind leg before turning base limits (never eliminates) the chance two planes won't see each other.
Years ago I had a bounce situation at closer to sea level when flying at Orange County Airport in Montgomery. New York state. Was still new at flying and had forgotten to immediately bring up the flaps on toucn down wnich I did on the next go around with my instructor yelling at me over the radio.
Johnson Creek isn't that tough of an airstrip to land at. There are much riskier ones in the Idaho backcountry. But as friendly as Johnson Creek looks, it can still be dangerous if you are not on speed, too high, have a tailwind, and don't make the go around decision soon enough. This pilot's inexperience in this type of flying certainly will come out as a causal factor too.
Thanks for the reminder that my credit card is a safety device! Great Video Juan. Such a sad deal.
Thx Juan and Dustin for an excellent eyewitness report...RIP and condolences to the guys that lost their lives.
Glad Dustin and friends were able to contain the fire before help arrived.
I always treat every landing like a short field landing. And that means in a 172, stopped within 800 feet of the threshold. Saved my life a year ago with a dead stick landing in the mountains onto a gravel bar. while constantly practising that type of landing actually puts one more at risk than a regular touchdown, when the time comes and you need that skill, it makes something like Johnson Creek seem benign in a 172..
Tragedy for sure but glad no forest fire got carried away this time of year. The strip itself looks pretty nice for being backcountry.
Kneeland Airport this year. Similar crash. New 206, the pilot was just starting a commercial career. Over the fence too hot, bounced several times on the runway (probably damaged the aircraft). Flew off the end of the runway, banked over and crashed. If you haven't landed at that airport, should go over and look at it. Almost like landing on an aircraft carrier.
Plenty of opportunities to forward-slip, which a C-206 will do quite well. Unfortunalely, slipping seems to have become a lost art.
I watched a bonanza go skidding by at about 2,500’ with the breaks on. He got stopped. Going around early is easy and leaves a lot of options at J creek. I think people don’t want to have to fly the approach that may have stressed them out. It’s a beautiful wide runway that is very safe with just a bit of training. So sad to have these peoples trip end in such tragedy
Sympathies to the families of those lost.
Getting into that airport sounds akin to landing at Catalina from the north (over the cliff) for the first time, or trying to get into Big Bear on a hot summer day.
I flew C206 and 207 professionaly on charters for more than 800 hors years ago. The 206 is forgiving but doesn't like a go around with full flaps. You will be a test pilot if making such a mistake and you don't want to be on in the back country airports of Idaho.
RIP aviators. Condolences to the family and friends who lost their loved ones.
Dustin did all the NTSB's work for them!
Juan, you worked your tail off for that one -- Nice job!
I'm so sorry. The loss of family and trauma of witness. Thank you Juan for your report.
Better to go around than go down. Situational awareness. JB I don’t have a PPL, but thanks to being an avid viewer of your channel, I believe that as a right seater, I could squawk 7700. Keep up the great reporting ✈️🤙🏻
My understanding is that Johnson Creek try to actively dissuade people from landing on 35, or taking off from 17, mostly to limit traffic over the Johnson house. I have to suspect that played a large part in the pilot's decision not to land on 35, and the subsequently fatal results. Things likely would have turned out very different with a headwind instead of a tailwind.
Great narrative by your “correspondent” Dusty. Very informative. Great vid as always, Jaun.
Very good review of this mishap. Iv never flown in this type of environment and don’t think I ever will.
All the Blancolirio video I think “I could do that”. I’m not a pilot. I think I could learn to do that. Except this one. Watching Juan fly into that canyon and land made me realize that it takes A LOT of training and expertise to do what they do. Bravo. Sorry for the loss of the victims. RIP.
I flew in there as a passenger with the winds favoring 35. The groundskeeper go out of their way to scold you for not landing 17. I personally don't care what the groundskeeper does but admonishing pilots for using the proper wind runway to protect the house from noise isn't helping. Yes, we should all be respectful pilots around noise abatement where it's possible, but I'll favor safety over noise abatement any day of the week.
Super sorry for the folks involved here - it's a beautiful area...
And that tree...
You don’t land with a 17 knot Tailwind!
@@StefanMochnacki yep. Not the trees fault but it's not in the best spot.
I tell ppl that my favorite scene in the original Twister movie was the closing credits and Eddie Van Halen playing a song called “Respect the Wind”. As a Colorado mountain resident, I am constantly amazed how the wind can go from light and variable to screaming out of the west-southwest in monsoon season. All daytime activities outside need to be done by noon
After my life-threatening health issue I sufferded after covid-19, now about 3-years ago, I no longer fly ( nor can I obtain a medical-certificate ). Thus I now fly Radio Control ( RC ) with my feet planted on the ground. I really enjoy it and run into other pilots like me. RC has greatly matured. I do have a healthy fleet of aircraft. 😊
That looks like an airfield I would just want to drive to.
To get there alive for some trout fishing !
I have flown into Johnson Creek a few times, camped out. Amazing experience. My advise:
1) Learn/review mountain high density altitude flying, winds (Low), Temps (morning), min weight, current skills.
2) Get standard procedures PDF on-line Idaho Transportation Dept Gov, Johnson Creek (3U2).
Terrain / obstacles (trees) North & South, not a true one-way strip, but heed the PDF recommended Ops; Apt Elv 5000' and Strip is 3400ft long smooth well maintained grass.
This video really emphasized to me that if something goes wrong in a place is rural as Johnson Creek you are really on your own for hours!
Saw this airplane and probably the two that died at their hangar at KDVT two months ago. Crazy
He was a good dude I had lunch with him a few months ago
Thank you for your objective reporting Juan.
It feels like so many people should have seen JB’s channels by now and the message is always the same. Be proficient, have a bug out plan and stick to it. It’s sobering to see the Swiss slices line up and the holes get you.
Fine description by Justin. Well done to a listener.
When I was flight instructing I was at the height of my light aircraft proficiency and I’m not sure I would have attempted that strip without so dual from someone who was very familiar with that airport.
Wondering if you’ll do a video on the failed go around here in Anderson, Indiana?
I rode motorcycles for 55 years and a couple of hundred thousand milles with one accident, with a mild injury. I'm glad there was and is no 'channel' that details most motorcycle fatalities. Every time I start to feel these people are taking a lot of risk I remember, so did I. I think the situations are somewhat similar as to risk, trouble, and how participants deal with it. If they deal with it. The challenge of both is physical and mental. Many do it not despite the risk and trouble but because of the risk and trouble. The challenge and accomplishment.
I too, used to be an avid motorcyclist. Nowadays, a motorcyclist sharing the road with others can be very dangerous. Times have changed…
Everyone has a risk versus reward equation to solve when traveling at speeds that can kill. There are so many factors involved. Unfortunately, the private pilot equation seems very complex; but, the motorcyclist equation comes in close behind.
@@bigjeff1291 I only quit riding 3 years ago at 70. That was 60% cost and 40% caution. I'm aware of my physical and cognitive decline. On the point it's worse now than some good old days. I have never thought in terms of the road and other traffic being any worse today than the past for motorcycles. It never enters my mind.
I have alot of time flying and instructing in the T206H on wheels and amphibians floats. It's a tank of an airplane and the go around can be scary if not executed correctly. A very common error I see is a complete lack of sufficient rudder input causing uncoordinated flight in the go around due to all the horsepower and change in attitude.
It's very sad to hear this news and hopefully we can all learn something from it.
Someone said you have to have a really strong right leg, lol.
That poor witness. You can hear it in his voice.
Very smoky in that area this year. Was in Yellow Pine less than a month ago. Condolences to the families.
I'm not a GA pilot but I understand mountain flying and the crazy currents that flow thru them. I'm sorry the pilot/passengers lost their lives. Mountain flying and windswept valleys are for the highly experienced pilot.
What a tragedy. Cudos to the people on site ready to help and also suppress the fire. Thanks for sharing. Not the kind of airfield to be taken lightly!
... No way in 😈 would I fly here or anywhere like it ... period. ...
Pitch for speed, throttle for climb/descent.
How often do we hear of aircraft that are flying perfectly well pulled up into a stall while close to the ground?
If you're lacking climb, fly Vx. In a 206 that's 69 knots. Much faster than landing configuration stall at 50 knots. If you're down near 50 then pushing nose down will make you climb at a higher angle, while giving more control.
Love your channel Juan. The CENIPA preliminary report is out on that Voepass fatal accident in Brazil. Please do a video on it. Thanx
We tell people “if you aren’t off by 11, pitch your tent”
Please take these strips seriously. If you can’t spot land within 300’ from all sorts of patterns at home, you need to get to that point before you do these places.
Such a strong tailwind during approach to land would throw ground references way off. Even with the correct approach airspeed will result in an incredibly long ground roll.
I look at the topography of the area, and I just can't think of many worse places to put an airport.
Good lads for going to help
RIP to both. Hope all the witnesses are coping as well.