@@michaelbigelow3255calm down dear! He didn’t say it caused the accident. Wind your neck in! The video includes information about passengers accidentally adjusting the trim, he posted some good advice on how to deal with this. Safety depends on people sharing good advice like this.
It may sound a bit rough, but aside from the usual PAX briefing to include not touching the controls, I've always been prepared to deliver a very strong backfist to the face should the need arise. That's never been something that I shared during a PAX briefing though.
I’ve heard some people say something they’ve learned is to sort of bash the ear cup of the head set to try and discombobulate the passenger. if it’s needed of course
@SlimChanceDubs I was a tandem skydiving instructor and contemplated if I would ever need to bite or headbut a student (if they grabbed my arm or a handle). Thankfully never had to try it out.
My CFI scheduled a training flight to practice accelerated stalls in a C-152. I climbed in the left and he on the right, carrying in his hand a 1" lead pipe about 12 to 14 inches long. He placed the pipe between the seats. "What's that for?" I asked. "To break your arm in case you freeze on the controls." A CFI friend of his died the week prior in Florida from what was determined to be a student freezing on the controls. He made it clear that it's not a reflection on me, just a safety precaution. He was an outstanding CFI - taught me to never take unnecessary chances.
40 years ago I drove a dairy truck picking up milk from various dairy farms. One day I asked one of the farmers if he ever needed to fly anywhere. He immediately said that he needed to buy his alfalfa near Hermiston, OR and that driving would be a 2 day trip. So I picked him up in a rental Cessna 172 and off we went. He told me that the farmer where we were going had a grass strip that we could land on that was actively used by pilots. When we got to the strip it looked perfectly adequate but it had power lines stretched across the approach end. As we were on final, not far from the power lines, my dairy farmer friend in the right seat grabbed the control yoke with both hands and exclaimed, "where are you going to land?" For the short field grass landing and dropping in over the power lines I had in lots of flaps and power as I had been taught. I calmly responded, "John, we'll cross over those power lines then drop down and land alongside that corn field on the grass runway but you have to let go of the controls right now." Thankfully that worked because I doubt that I would have been able to overpower him! He told me later that he had once flown with a friend who purposely did crazy stuff to scare him and that he had never flown since then. As it turned out, that was one of the coolest flights I ever did since we were able later to fly over the Columbia River to the circle farm on the N. side of the river where there was a crop duster strip. We landed there and my farmer friend was able to go right out into the alfalfa field while they were harvesting his alfalfa. It all ended well by the grace of God! But we could have had the same end!!!
As a FI it happened to me once I had to poke my left elbow hard in the ribs of a bulky student who grabbed the controls and froze. Fortunately not during landing.. another emergency way to clear the controls from a frozen student is to pinch his nose or to put a hand on his eyes, to provoke a reaction and take his hands off the controls. Sadly sometimes there's no time enough to do it...
With most of my piloting experience in a Cessna 152 I just prefer the old fashioned trim wheel. It works well and is dependable. And no run away trim or accidental re-trimming. I wish more modern aircraft would offer trim wheels as an option. Oh well, I guess we can't escape modern upgrades.
I fly Super King Airs and Turbo Commanders that have both manual and electric pitch trim. I prefer the manual wheel for the reasons you pointed out as well as finer control of the pitch through physical control.
My flying instructor had a ball point pen his hands for the first few flights until he realised I was safe. His thought was, if someone grabbed the controls he'd stab them in the leg and get the aircraft down. Probably wouldn't have worked in this flight.
@@danielleclare2938I’ve had a hang gliding instructor tell me that on a tandem hang gliding flight, he has to knock out his (female) passenger because she was panicking and manning it very hard to control the glider. And yes, I believe him.
I witnessed a young female flight instructor perish when her student (a 280 pound large man) panicked on short final when he got a little slow and caused the stall warning horn to blare, he froze on the controls and she could not overpower him before impact. He survived but she was killed instantly.
What was the aircraft? I was curious as to the CofG with someone with that excessive mass sitting up front? How did they manage to get in the aircraft and the _full and free_ control check before take-off must have been interesting.
@@braveworld2707 C172, he was a fit man, a bodybuilder. There were no CG issues since they usually flew well below gross weight for training flights. They were planning for a few touch and goes at the end of the lesson. I believe it was the students 3rd lesson but am not sure.
@@braveworld2707 Wow, you must be one of those Hollywood producers who assume that "average" = "actual tub of lard", and "overweight" = "causes earthquake with each step". I'm about that weight, and I have no problem with the CG of any plane I've flown, and have no problem with control movements, either. The only "interesting" part of my preflight check comes from my long legs, which means I have to have my seat slightly farther back. Calling 280lbs "excessive mass" is idiotic.
I had a similar situation. Long story short. Upon takeoff, passenger froze during a takeoff climb and would not let go until the passenger in the back shouted and they finally broke out of their trance and let go. Power-on stall
The narrator assumes the pax is landing the aircraft. This is their first time the pax has ever sat in a light aircraft and the high time instructor knows this is pitchy and tricky to land. Of course the pax isn’t landing it. The pax simply grabs the stick because they’re having a panic attack and pulls back on it. The instructor adds power to try to prevent a stall whilst pushing with all his might forward on the stick to overcome the pax. This is a much more realistic scenario than handing the landing to a panic stricken first timer.
I agree with your comments and as I say we will never know the actual turn of events but the aircraft ended up on it's tail with the instructor screaming 'let go' so either way the instructor was not in control, I never said the student/passenger was landing the aircraft but as the NTSB report states he was manupulating the controls.
@@ShortField I just had to be an expert witness in a case last year where one of my instructors had a really strong student that locked up on the controls and caused a serious crash, leaving the student as a quadriplegic and my instructor seriously injured for life. Unfortunately we didn't get to use this tragedy in the court case but it would've come in handy. So, I fully believe that the 28 year old student in this case locked up on the controls and caused this crash...or at least understand the high probability of it.
What a sad story for those involved 😥 I guess no matter how thorough the briefing, there's always the risk of someone doing something stupid - after all, flight instructors do say that they are always trying to stop students killing them! For the feet pushing on the controls on the Piper Sport, I think it would be easy enough to install a cover to prevent that?
I have flown the Cruiser during my whole PPL course. Feet against the bar are annoying but they are easily pushed aside as the lever is very large. However, when something falls in between, such as a phone, the situation might be different. I have heard of an accident caused by this. Things can also fall into the side of the seats and get into the control rods. I do love this sensitive little airplane, unfortunately can't fly it anymore. Very sad for the friends and family of the two who perished.
@@InducedBank The feet have so little leverage that you could fight through it, even if you weighed only 80 lbs. You’d lose finesse, but the student’s hand control is 10x as dangerous. The foot guard is a good idea, except that a bent or jammed guard could be a death sentence. The design has to be well executed.
I was a CFIA&I in the late 70's and early 80's and was a weight lifter. I never had to deal with anyone taking control away from me. I also made it clear I was in charge. As Pilot in Command the FAR's make me the final authority; which is no joke!! Today I'm retired. We joke about students trying to kill us as instructors. But it is sadly true!
When I attended racing school (cars) and I did a ride-along with an instructor, before moving he told me to grab the grab handle with my right hand and tuck my left hand under my thigh. Evidently some passengers could be nervous or scared or otherwise motivated to reach or flail around with their hands, often enough for them to assign a role to passenger's hands as part of their procedure. In a flight like this it might be useful to do the same, even installing grab handles if necessary, to ensure passengers don't inadvertently turn their hands into weapons. Once a nervous passenger had a grip on something, I'd bet they'd be very unlikely to let go.
If the student got in and adjusted the seat but didn’t make sure the seat was locked into position or if the set locks were not working properly; the landing is enough to make the seat slide back which gives the same results. This has happened to me in a Cessna 150 or 152. I was able to let go I time for the second pilot to take over.
Good video, there has been discussion about this accident on other channels, comment about how instructors need to be prepared to overpower or disable a panicked or locked up student if they endanger safety. Self-defense courses might become part of the curriculum for instructors. Size up your potential passenger/student if you need to disable them quickly. I think your trim switch cover needs a re-design, recess the buttons and raise the lips around them to make it a deliberate action to activate each one. You also need a round hard cover over the stick crossbar so your feet can't move it by accident. Reach out to your local sales or factory rep for help with this, they might already have solutions in the works. Offer to help with the prototype process. As a loyal customer and influencer, you have a lot of pull with the factory. Use your leverage, you might be surprised.
Exactly. Stick mod could be 3d printed, and control cover a simple pop-riveted rolled sheet of aluminum (aluminium to the channel owner!). Are these types of mods allowed to manufactured microlights in the UK?
I have a relative that coaches MMA fighters. He has some excellent, quick methods that do no long term harm. I agree that should be included in all CFI training. However, just like real flight training, most of those techniques are only good if you've practiced them "under duress". Theory and how it works in real life are not often the same.
So many young people are messed up by the pressures of today's society, especially social media. Has anyone considered whether this was a deliberate suicide by the passenger. After watching the video, it was the first thing our daughter (who is a London police officer), said. She has seen suicides among young people, where neither friends or family saw any warning signs. They are often among the middle and upper class, where the son or daughter feels that they are not living up to the expectations of their professional parents.
I think you are correct about the instructor adding power. And you make good points about the elevator and trim of that particular airplane making loss of control or at least control issues a bit more likely. I am not a huge proponent of the go around to fix everything as accepting some issues and working with what I have had has worked a number of times for me. While these types of loss of control accidents are very rare events, two or three have resulted in fatalities lately. If we have truly done as Wolfgang suggests what experienced pilots do, we could just add a bit of power for a second soft field landing or just pull power/keep power off and land/perhaps crash down slowly. "The 'stall-down' landing requires that you blend the approach glide, the flair-out, and the slowing up of the airplane all into one maneuver so that, when you arrive at ground level, you arrive in three-point attitude, all slowed up and ready to squat." Stick and Rudder page 302. In loss of control accidents, speed kills. That would be either enough speed to get high enough that a stall/fall kills or failure to use rudder yaw only to align so that running off the runway fast and hitting things kills. So I think the instructor leaving power off or pulling power would have resulted in a damaged airplane and no fatalities. Sometimes we just have to accept what we have. Even the very experienced Dale Snodgrass, who took off with the control locked full back, could have pulled power and crashed slowly rather than climbing high enough that the stall/fall killed him.
The R22 requires removing controls if the person sitting in the passenger seat isn’t qualified. Qualification requires documented training as to the extreme danger involved with handling the controls and a sign off. This is required for anyone… even rated pilots.
Your comment made me curious - looks like it's true of the R44 too. I've been a front seat passenger with the controls still in.. not a pilot.. but aware enough that touching anything could in no way improve any imaginable situation. Maybe they were expecting me to sit in the back 🤷
@@incandescentwithrage yes, you have to remove the controls for any Robinson aircraft if anyone will be in the front seat. Only a person that has received training can sit in the seat with controls in front of them. Still doesn’t stop people from grabbing the control in the center. So, better to keep non pilots in the back.
The flight was a trial introductory flight with the passenger having controls because that’s required to do a time loggable TIF and for training flights. The passenger is a “student” in this cases. There are no rules as stated above that say a student pilot has to have the dual controls removed. It only applies for a bona fide passenger not student whose main reason for flying is to fly the aircraft.
@@Jabiru430VHDOD Yes, there actually is a published Robinson safety notice, and required to be placed in the POH (making it a legal requirement) to remove the controls if specific ground training has not been completed and signed off in the students log book. Yes, this is required for the flight to be legal. Don’t do it, and the person dies, and you by chance survive… you can be charged with criminal manslaughter, and be financially liable for any damage that occurs as a result of the failure to follow the POH.
Robinson helicopters have a rudimentary cyclic and blade design that can readily chop the tail off or cause mast bumping. So, even an accidental bump into the controls, if it is sufficiently abrupt enough, can cause near instantaneous in flight disintegration of the helicopter. There are vastly better helicopters out there. Enstrom, Huges/, Schweizer, Bell. There is little to no reason to purchase an inferior flying machine when the payments are nearly the same. And long term maintenance on the inferior product is also prohibitively expensive.
Decades ago, this happened to my squadron commander when I was in the Civil Air Patrol. He owned a Piper Comanche and was taking cadets up for orientation flights. On one flight, the cadet in the right seat panicked during the landing and grabbed the controls. He had to hit the kid with a flashlight to get him to let go of the controls. I believe he stopped giving the orientation flights after that.
That is called A PANIC PULL. My 1999 CFi called it like that. He said some people are bound to Panic Attacks. He had one student also pushing left rudder on bad landings and called that. The Panic Pedal. Some do both. Panic Pull with Panic Pedal, and that means.. A .. Fill the blank... _________. 4 letters only.
Another interesting video Terry, such a sad tale. Back in the 1980s several GA aircraft crashed due to px cameras, camera straps etc fouling the controls. My father used to give a thorough briefing and double check if pxs wanted to take photos. He had one px try to open the door and then lift the window in/on a C150, requiring a side slip to get it closed again, luckily not at a critical stage of flight, but any distraction can be fatal. We've recently lost a UK registered Sportstar too. Iirc 600' agl, crashed (stalled/spun in) into a trading estate, cause, as yet, unknown. My dad had to take control twice in training when a low hours instructor either over controlled the aircraft (outside of its operating parameters) or froze during an engine failure on finals. Luckily my father stayed calm, took control, knew what to do (thank God). Not that my father is/was an expert pilot per se, he just knew the aircraft better than locum instructors and made good decisions in critical stages of flight. Its good to note these incidents, however Im not a fan of the types of video that constantly pore over such.
These days on RUclips if you show a crash the video gets demonetized. I think in this crash a accidental full throttle was applied then panic reactions on the controls.
One tip is that if you can't overpower them then cover their eyes with your hand. The instinct will take over and they will let go of the controls to get your hand out of the way at which point you regain control of the aircraft. I've never had to try it but I heard it works.
The instructor asked me to land the Cessna 172 during my "discovery" flight by just following his verbal commands. I think I stalled it about 3 feet off the runway because it touch the pavement with such a loud bang that I thought the wings had fallen off. I looked at him and he was laughing so hard. That was 40 years ago. I went on and got my PP ticket.
Terry, great video, especially for someone new to aviation. Your explanation of the dynamics here on this particular aircraft certainly helped reinforce the need for slow and small control inputs. I do have to laugh at some of the comments, but please ignore them and keep making your excellent videos, most of us appreciate the effort you put in 👍🙂
Couldn't a metal guard be placed on the area of the exposed control rod so that if someone does put their feet hard back it would not affect the control? The horizontal part of the control under your feet only rotates so a cover over it shouldn't impede the control of the aircraft.
Because some would consider what little was shown to be graphic, I would guess. I don't agree personally but then I seem to have a stronger stomach for these things, others may not 🤷♂️
I knew after my first few lessons (25 yrs ago) that I'd never want to be a CFI. Went on to get my PPL and have enjoyed flying ever since. My flight school and instructor (he was 22 and I was 32 at the time), wouldn't even *think* of letting me attempt to land, prior to having a full grasp of slow flight, stalls and recovery! Three or four lessons. RIP 🙏🏾
A 28 year old stocky man probably was not afraid during touch down. A 24 year old slender man/instructor probably did not have the strength to overpower the “pilot’s” desire to end it all.
I really like this plane because it's sporty characteristics. For me, this is a more challenging plane than piper or Cessna. I would say that the exactly same accident could be occurred in any other plane if the passenger decides to pull the joke or stick aft. Is so difficult to overcome the other people's force and, beyond that, keep the plane under control. About the feet. As you showed, yes it can modify the path but you have a lot of lever created for the long stick and I would say that is very easy to overcome that force just pushing the stick. I been twice in a situation that I had to yell to the passenger to relax and keep their hands on the legs and keep the legs open. Is good to don't forget that part! In one opportunity I almost hit in the nose to my passenger. Honestly, you (we all) should be prepared to do that and it should be part of our "checklist". This guy, very brave (according to him), due to an important turbulence, almost grab the stick when I was turning base to final. The best place to do that! Finally, it's important to let the passengers know the consequences of their actions. Yes! Flying is an amazing experience but... Dear passenger, if you touch this... We can die... and I share this unfortunate accident with them. I do have the video in my iPad. Additionally as part of my landing checklist, I told my passenger, one more time, to keep the hand in the legs and keep the legs open. Finally, as I can predict with some accuracy if "this" is going to be a bummpy approach, I brief my passenger too in what could happen. The "let go, let go" is terrifying and we all should have a plan in how mitigate that risk and be prepared if that happens to us. As always, thanks for sharing! You have no idea how much I enjoy your adventures! Blue skies!
Jeez! What a sad event. Two lads with everything to live for you would think. Thanks for this, Terry. Similarly I don't view air accident debriefs either, unless I believe something can be learned from them. But this was very thoughtfully put together and a good information re the Sport Cruiser 👌🏻👏🏻👏🏻
This is so tragic. I hope your excellent observations are sgared widely in the hope that future tragedies are avoided. RIP to the two souls on board. My heart goes out to the families of both men
"But did the aircraft play a part?" Absolutely, yes. Unbelievably poor design choices are pervasive in light aircraft. Especially regarding human factors, ergonomics, workflow, and of course mis-control.
I agree with what you say, the passenger could also have had a camera which got in the way, although that would have come up in the accident report. As a separate issue, I watch a lot of accident reports from the US, where there’s an engine failure after take off and like the airport shown it’s surrounded by houses and buildings. There’s literally no where to go, unlike the places you fly from here.
Camera or object jamming the controls would not project the plane like that, it might keep you from pulling the yoke rather. Pilot went TOGA but the harm was done.
Stories like these are what the person I bought my plane from was explaining about being a CFI, some people try and kill you and you never know how theyre going to react until you get up there. Its a serious point I never even thought about until that day. I wanted to become an ultralight CFI one day until he told me that.
This is an unfortunate event. As a light aircraft student pilot, I've never experienced such an event where I would freeze but it creates awareness when I start taking people with me. I am wondering if a good pre-flight briefing will help
Terry Not sure if you are aware, but the LAA insist on an “additional press button” being added to the elevator trim circuit. This is primarily to stop trim runaway whilst the Autopilot is engaged. This configuration would have certainly stopped any accidental trim input from the pax.
Thanks for sharing this very sad event and the lessons identified. Even in early flexwing lessons i don't let the students even follow through on the controls for this very reason as they could easily over power the instructor. As you have flown with me, I'm sure you could full appreciate how dangerous this could be.
after getting my license in cessna I wanted to learn to fly in this. it looks so sleek and modern... one with a glass cockpit. I tried about three flights. and the controls were too sensitive. I was not able to land. plus the travelling speed is too slow. plus overheating engine during taxi, plus very sensitive to turbulence. I've decided to stick to larger planes and never fly in such a small beast again...
I have a hard time believing the instructor would have increased the throttle in those circumstances. Especially if the student was pulling back on the stick as that would have given even more authority to the elevator. But I guess we will never know.
I think the passenger both pulled back on the stick and increased the throttle in some kind of stupid move or to deliberately crash the plane. I think the pilot would have closed the throttle and let the plane stall close to the ground. The pilot would have known the plane would not have the power for a near vertical climb and recovery from a passenger using his full force on the control column. Murder suicide by the passenger.
@@Hydrogenblonde I agree but would the plane even have left the ground if the throttle remained at idle (just watched the video again - it isn’t clear from it that the plane had actually landed - the video is rather blurry, but the narrator states that the accident happened after the plane touched down so my comments assume the plane had already landed before the event)? I don’t know the aircraft but apart from the twin engined plane I flew and the tail draggers, if you do a wheel landing instead of a three point landing, all of the other small planes I would flare to land, meaning I flew close to the ground and pulled back on the stick till the plane stalled and settled to the ground. Then depending on how quickly I wanted to stop I have pulled back fully on the stick which raises the nose and produces aerodynamic drag slowing the plane down. Once it stalled and settled to the runway it didn’t matter how hard I pulled back on the stick it didn’t have the airspeed to fly again. Of course if he planted it on the runway like a heavier twin engined plane or a wheel landing of a tail dragger instead of flaring it then he might have had energy to leave the ground again without throttling up and as you said would have stalled closer to the ground and with less elevator authority wouldn’t have pitched up as severely if someone hadn’t increased the throttle. But planting (ie forcing the plane to land without flaring and stalling it) such a light tricycle geared aircraft I imagine is very hard to do without wheelbarrowing or porpoising where the plane bounces on the nose and main gear alternately down the runway as you need to force the plane to stay on the ground by pushing forward on the stick so I doubt the instructor did this.
I love how safety is valued in aviation. What if we had taken safety while driving car as seriously as it is taken in aviation? 20,000 dies in car accidents in EU every year. That's on average 55 people every day. If these two young men had died in a car accident we wouldn't discussed and analyzed it like this, but we should.
Lord Alan Sugar (Apprentice) is a pilot and tells an interesting story in his biography of airplane geeks who hang around airfields hoping someone will take them up as they can't afford to fly. He found out that these people tend to start fiddling with switches and controls because they know something about flying and can't resist interfering to the point of becoming a menace and even downright dangerous. I had an instructor deliberately turn off the master switch to "simulate" an electrical failure during the approach, implying a landing without flaps. It also had the effect of disabling the fuel boost pump (radio and a few other things) so I switched the electrics back on, but he switched them off again and a battle ensued for control of the situation. Other students complained about his behaviour and he was dismissed eventually.
I watched the NTSB video of the impact, and the plane just shattered and blew into flames. Not going into context due to reasons. It can be seen via the NTSB official report but wouldn't advise anyone to watch it if your light hearted.
I know little about planes so this may be a dumb question. Is there any sort of quick disconnect the pilot can engage in the event a student or passenger won’t/can’t release the controls?
Depends on how many hours it's done. The Tempest filters we use are good for 100 hours, and if at the 50 hour check we're not going to more than 50 hours before the next 50 hour check, we'll leave it on. (We replace it after 12 months regardless). I always open up the filter to check for metal when we do change the filter, and the filters are obviously perfectly good for 100 hours because they still look pretty much brand new.
I had to overpower a nearly unmanageable passenger to get control of the airplane. My next step would have been to disable him. I am a strong man. He wasn’t as strong!
Yes but you end up crashing. You won't be able to KO him on the spot and any struggle will end with the plane falling. Moron is a big problem, not just in planes, but in planes it's just immediately lethal.
A very interesting video. Theories abound of this tragedy, inevitably. Based on I have picked up here, my own inexpert thought is that the passenger had hands on the stick during landing, maybe even with the pilot's consent as some kind of dual flying deal. But the plane touched down harder and/or more suddenly than the passenger expected, and he instinctively flinched back HARD in his seat, yanking the stick back hard as well.. The plane's dramatic nose up caused him to then freeze, and led to the pilot's yelling of "Let Go!". I am NOT a pilot. Just been interested in aviation from an early age.
First time in a Sport cruiser at take off i realised the elevator control was way too light. Accident waiting to happen. I said to owner it needs to be heavier. He replied it had already been modded to make it heavier. I think Piper dropped the aircraft after a while, no it could not be used as a trainer in my opinion after 17k hours in other usual GA types.
a person completely locking up out of fear is rare, but whats strange is that they touched down apparently before the stick was pushed fully back? what type of person gets an incapacitating type of fear when they are… on the ground? especially after already accustoming yourself for about 30 min on the flight??
It sounds like the struggle began just before landing and the mic was keyed so the instructor could be heard struggling to maintain control of the aircraft.
Incidents like these are why I didn't become an instructor. Have an instructor friend who had to repeatedly elbow a student in the face to get him off the controls, scary!
Seems like the torque tube should have a cover protecting it from being jammed either by a passenger's feet or a loose article in the cabin. Cessna 172s have a similar issue that seems like a flaw to me: in the footwell area the control cables run vertically. If you turn your toes toward the center with the pedal in certain positions you can jam your own foot in that space both putting pressure on the control cable and preventing you from operating the rudder or brakes. Why that isn't covered by a panel to prevent such issues I cannot imagine. A PAX jumping on the controls is my nightmare scenario. Still a student but have had a bad dream about my wife panicking and grabbing the yoke once I have my certificate.
Take them up to safe altitude (min 5,000') and have them learn to place the aircraft into a 30 degree banked turn. Ensure they understand "power to climb" not pitch.
Any statistics of pilot or front passenger wearing only lap seat belt, passing out and falling into the yoke, how can you recover from a vertical dive with all their weight pressing against the yoke? As a commercial pilot, I have had large overweight folks in the right seat and always wondered the outcome. I can see the benefits of shoulder harnesses on all aircraft.
No passengers in the front seats. Only pilots trained in this specific aircraft’s vulnerabilities to human error. Especially in a precision, high quality, highly maneuverable airplane. Sorry for the loss of people and an excellent aircraft. It has an Achilles heel.
You mention the short fuselage a couple of times and it confused me. Surely a short fus *reduces* the effectiveness of the elevator? Isn't this the reason for the large control surface area, rather than something which contributes to its power?
Sometimes you have to be prepared to knock your passenger out. Happened to my uncle after turning base to final when he was instructing. Rolled the aircraft inverted.
I have not flown this type of LSA but did not see any mention in the comments regarding the very strong nose up pitch couple that occurs during a go-around, or a touch and go with full flap. I have recently completed a type rating in a Bristel LSA with a 140hp Rotax and can confirm that the throttle must be advanced relatively slowly to keep pace with the electric trim or a very high forward stick force is needed to prevent overpitching. These light modern LSAs react very quickly and can get you into trouble fast compared to older underpowered GA aircraft I learned on.
Trim left/ right switch... Cover on the bottom of the control column.. larger anti servo tab... limit upward travel of the elevator Problems solved. Sport cruizer are you listening?
Are the seats adjustable in this craft? Could it be that the passenger released the seat and it rolled back, with the passenger grabbing the stick to pull himself forward?
@@ToddDunningoh there are definitely dangerous aircraft out there. The quicky q2 for example. I wouldn't call this an overly dangerous aircraft but there are some clear design issues outlined in this video
The link to the full video is in the description. I chose not to show the impact because it didn't add to the video and I think I need to respect the family of the two young guys who were killed.
I would like to know a bit about the "student". My first thought when watching the video was the student plays computer flight games and he was trying to imitate a fighter doing a high power pass and vertical climb and the instructor could get him to let go.. I am sure he was not that stupid but seems strange the power was at max and the plane climbed that much after flare.
It would make sense if this was just an instant reaction by the student and had he let go that would have been the correct thing to do but as the student hung onto the stick it turned out the wrong thing but who would have suspected that in that instant!
Aside from the trim adjustments, there appear to be no further issues with this aircraft. As mentioned regarding the radio communication, when the pilot is heard saying "let go" accompanied by grunts from another, it suggests that the passenger may have been taken by surprise, or possibly suffered a seizure or stroke, leading to the grabbing of the control stick, which could explain the events observed in those final tragic moments.
Passengers should never have sole control of any aircraft, even oversized toys. As a pilot you should know to keep your feet on the rudder pedals and heels on the floor. These planes are like toys
I'm not a CFI but in my aircraft the right stick comes out for newbies in the right seat (Vans RV not a pipersport). It would not take much for a panicked passenger to kill you when you are close to the ground.
@@andrewglover9608 Anyone trying to kill themself would likely pitch down in to the runway during landing rather than pitch up, what happened suggested the passenger possibly panicked when they saw the ground approaching so fast and they instinctively pulled back to pitch up.
Lots of value from reading these accident reports. I get a weekly email from the AAIB containing all that they’ve published in the week and look to see relevant reports but I think I’m in the minority of pilots that do so
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
I have added a co pilot stick disconnect switch in my RV 7 to ensure non pilots don't accidently re trim the aircraft
We need this!
same here why make it possible to happen
i see s a lot of events that can be avoided
Sensible precaution allows for error margin.
@@michaelbigelow3255calm down dear!
He didn’t say it caused the accident. Wind your neck in!
The video includes information about passengers accidentally adjusting the trim, he posted some good advice on how to deal with this.
Safety depends on people sharing good advice like this.
What happens if u pass out in the pilot seat and then no one can figure out why the right stick doesnt work
It may sound a bit rough, but aside from the usual PAX briefing to include not touching the controls, I've always been prepared to deliver a very strong backfist to the face should the need arise. That's never been something that I shared during a PAX briefing though.
I’ve heard some people say something they’ve learned is to sort of bash the ear cup of the head set to try and discombobulate the passenger. if it’s needed of course
@SlimChanceDubs I was a tandem skydiving instructor and contemplated if I would ever need to bite or headbut a student (if they grabbed my arm or a handle). Thankfully never had to try it out.
You'd have far more luck with a reverse elbow strike.
@AwestrikeFearofGods what if they have your arms? Hypothetical of course- the correct answer is not to let them get your arms
@@SlimChanceDubs Indeed. Great word use.
My CFI scheduled a training flight to practice accelerated stalls in a C-152. I climbed in the left and he on the right, carrying in his hand a 1" lead pipe about 12 to 14 inches long. He placed the pipe between the seats. "What's that for?" I asked. "To break your arm in case you freeze on the controls." A CFI friend of his died the week prior in Florida from what was determined to be a student freezing on the controls. He made it clear that it's not a reflection on me, just a safety precaution. He was an outstanding CFI - taught me to never take unnecessary chances.
40 years ago I drove a dairy truck picking up milk from various dairy farms. One day I asked one of the farmers if he ever needed to fly anywhere. He immediately said that he needed to buy his alfalfa near Hermiston, OR and that driving would be a 2 day trip. So I picked him up in a rental Cessna 172 and off we went. He told me that the farmer where we were going had a grass strip that we could land on that was actively used by pilots. When we got to the strip it looked perfectly adequate but it had power lines stretched across the approach end. As we were on final, not far from the power lines, my dairy farmer friend in the right seat grabbed the control yoke with both hands and exclaimed, "where are you going to land?" For the short field grass landing and dropping in over the power lines I had in lots of flaps and power as I had been taught. I calmly responded, "John, we'll cross over those power lines then drop down and land alongside that corn field on the grass runway but you have to let go of the controls right now." Thankfully that worked because I doubt that I would have been able to overpower him! He told me later that he had once flown with a friend who purposely did crazy stuff to scare him and that he had never flown since then. As it turned out, that was one of the coolest flights I ever did since we were able later to fly over the Columbia River to the circle farm on the N. side of the river where there was a crop duster strip. We landed there and my farmer friend was able to go right out into the alfalfa field while they were harvesting his alfalfa. It all ended well by the grace of God! But we could have had the same end!!!
Scary story, glad you both made it.
As a FI it happened to me once I had to poke my left elbow hard in the ribs of a bulky student who grabbed the controls and froze. Fortunately not during landing.. another emergency way to clear the controls from a frozen student is to pinch his nose or to put a hand on his eyes, to provoke a reaction and take his hands off the controls. Sadly sometimes there's no time enough to do it...
Imagine starting a struggle in the cockpit, quite scary tbh.
With most of my piloting experience in a Cessna 152 I just prefer the old fashioned trim wheel. It works well and is dependable. And no run away trim or accidental re-trimming. I wish more modern aircraft would offer trim wheels as an option. Oh well, I guess we can't escape modern upgrades.
Me too and I really love my manual flaps!
In the 46 taylorcraft trim was a crank on the roof above your heads.
Agreed. All manual. Seen maint issues with electrical trim
@@BStrambo Manual flaps work well in STOL flying too. Very cool!
I fly Super King Airs and Turbo Commanders that have both manual and electric pitch trim. I prefer the manual wheel for the reasons you pointed out as well as finer control of the pitch through physical control.
I used to be a flight instructor glad I gave it up. Never had any incident in 40 years.
Me too. FAA wants bad pilots. Most FAA CFI's Cant teach EFATO or low go arounds. Which are needed maneuvers..
Thank you for your service.
My flying instructor had a ball point pen his hands for the first few flights until he realised I was safe. His thought was, if someone grabbed the controls he'd stab them in the leg and get the aircraft down. Probably wouldn't have worked in this flight.
That is an urban legend story been told a million times.
@@danielleclare2938I’ve had a hang gliding instructor tell me that on a tandem hang gliding flight, he has to knock out his (female) passenger because she was panicking and manning it very hard to control the glider. And yes, I believe him.
@@danielleclare2938 probably because its true.
@@kennethjohnson4280 Most urban legends are.
yeah, sure, he was going to hit you in the leg....lol....that pen was going to go straight in your eye or throat lol
I witnessed a young female flight instructor perish when her student (a 280 pound large man) panicked on short final when he got a little slow and caused the stall warning horn to blare, he froze on the controls and she could not overpower him before impact. He survived but she was killed instantly.
Patrick Henry airport Va??
What was the aircraft? I was curious as to the CofG with someone with that excessive mass sitting up front?
How did they manage to get in the aircraft and the _full and free_ control check before take-off must have been interesting.
@@scotabot7826 KDWH
@@braveworld2707 C172, he was a fit man, a bodybuilder. There were no CG issues since they usually flew well below gross weight for training flights. They were planning for a few touch and goes at the end of the lesson. I believe it was the students 3rd lesson but am not sure.
@@braveworld2707 Wow, you must be one of those Hollywood producers who assume that "average" = "actual tub of lard", and "overweight" = "causes earthquake with each step".
I'm about that weight, and I have no problem with the CG of any plane I've flown, and have no problem with control movements, either. The only "interesting" part of my preflight check comes from my long legs, which means I have to have my seat slightly farther back. Calling 280lbs "excessive mass" is idiotic.
I had a similar situation. Long story short. Upon takeoff, passenger froze during a takeoff climb and would not let go until the passenger in the back shouted and they finally broke out of their trance and let go. Power-on stall
The narrator assumes the pax is landing the aircraft. This is their first time the pax has ever sat in a light aircraft and the high time instructor knows this is pitchy and tricky to land. Of course the pax isn’t landing it. The pax simply grabs the stick because they’re having a panic attack and pulls back on it. The instructor adds power to try to prevent a stall whilst pushing with all his might forward on the stick to overcome the pax. This is a much more realistic scenario than handing the landing to a panic stricken first timer.
I agree with your comments and as I say we will never know the actual turn of events but the aircraft ended up on it's tail with the instructor screaming 'let go' so either way the instructor was not in control, I never said the student/passenger was landing the aircraft but as the NTSB report states he was manupulating the controls.
@@ShortField I just had to be an expert witness in a case last year where one of my instructors had a really strong student that locked up on the controls and caused a serious crash, leaving the student as a quadriplegic and my instructor seriously injured for life. Unfortunately we didn't get to use this tragedy in the court case but it would've come in handy. So, I fully believe that the 28 year old student in this case locked up on the controls and caused this crash...or at least understand the high probability of it.
pax?
Agreed. No sane human will have a first time passenger land a plane. Something else caused him to grab the stick.
@@Capecodham
pax = passenger
What a sad story for those involved 😥 I guess no matter how thorough the briefing, there's always the risk of someone doing something stupid - after all, flight instructors do say that they are always trying to stop students killing them! For the feet pushing on the controls on the Piper Sport, I think it would be easy enough to install a cover to prevent that?
Cheers Mike so sad and so young.
I have flown the Cruiser during my whole PPL course. Feet against the bar are annoying but they are easily pushed aside as the lever is very large. However, when something falls in between, such as a phone, the situation might be different. I have heard of an accident caused by this. Things can also fall into the side of the seats and get into the control rods. I do love this sensitive little airplane, unfortunately can't fly it anymore.
Very sad for the friends and family of the two who perished.
I was thinking same thing small cover over control tube on floor
@@InducedBank The feet have so little leverage that you could fight through it, even if you weighed only 80 lbs. You’d lose finesse, but the student’s hand control is 10x as dangerous. The foot guard is a good idea, except that a bent or jammed guard could be a death sentence. The design has to be well executed.
I was a CFIA&I in the late 70's and early 80's and was a weight lifter. I never had to deal with anyone taking control away from me. I also made it clear I was in charge. As Pilot in Command the FAR's make me the final authority; which is no joke!! Today I'm retired. We joke about students trying to kill us as instructors. But it is sadly true!
When I attended racing school (cars) and I did a ride-along with an instructor, before moving he told me to grab the grab handle with my right hand and tuck my left hand under my thigh.
Evidently some passengers could be nervous or scared or otherwise motivated to reach or flail around with their hands, often enough for them to assign a role to passenger's hands as part of their procedure.
In a flight like this it might be useful to do the same, even installing grab handles if necessary, to ensure passengers don't inadvertently turn their hands into weapons. Once a nervous passenger had a grip on something, I'd bet they'd be very unlikely to let go.
There is absolutely no way to mitigate for a student going nuts. Flight instructors are brave souls indeed.
Not so much "nuts", but just freezing up on the controls. Pre-flight briefings are a must and transfer of A/C controls is mandatory.
*locked up
handgun
If the student got in and adjusted the seat but didn’t make sure the seat was locked into position or if the set locks were not working properly; the landing is enough to make the seat slide back which gives the same results. This has happened to me in a Cessna 150 or 152. I was able to let go I time for the second pilot to take over.
Good video, there has been discussion about this accident on other channels, comment about how instructors need to be prepared to overpower or disable a panicked or locked up student if they endanger safety. Self-defense courses might become part of the curriculum for instructors. Size up your potential passenger/student if you need to disable them quickly.
I think your trim switch cover needs a re-design, recess the buttons and raise the lips around them to make it a deliberate action to activate each one. You also need a round hard cover over the stick crossbar so your feet can't move it by accident.
Reach out to your local sales or factory rep for help with this, they might already have solutions in the works. Offer to help with the prototype process. As a loyal customer and influencer, you have a lot of pull with the factory. Use your leverage, you might be surprised.
You are a good man! Not only do you suggest something positive, but also offer yourself to help! Humanity needs more people like you, Sir!
Exactly. Stick mod could be 3d printed, and control cover a simple pop-riveted rolled sheet of aluminum (aluminium to the channel owner!). Are these types of mods allowed to manufactured microlights in the UK?
I have a relative that coaches MMA fighters. He has some excellent, quick methods that do no long term harm. I agree that should be included in all CFI training. However, just like real flight training, most of those techniques are only good if you've practiced them "under duress". Theory and how it works in real life are not often the same.
Self defense courses ??????????????
So many young people are messed up by the pressures of today's society, especially social media.
Has anyone considered whether this was a deliberate suicide by the passenger.
After watching the video, it was the first thing our daughter (who is a London police officer), said. She has seen suicides among young people, where neither friends or family saw any warning signs. They are often among the middle and upper class, where the son or daughter feels that they are not living up to the expectations of their professional parents.
I think you are correct about the instructor adding power. And you make good points about the elevator and trim of that particular airplane making loss of control or at least control issues a bit more likely. I am not a huge proponent of the go around to fix everything as accepting some issues and working with what I have had has worked a number of times for me. While these types of loss of control accidents are very rare events, two or three have resulted in fatalities lately. If we have truly done as Wolfgang suggests what experienced pilots do, we could just add a bit of power for a second soft field landing or just pull power/keep power off and land/perhaps crash down slowly. "The 'stall-down' landing requires that you blend the approach glide, the flair-out, and the slowing up of the airplane all into one maneuver so that, when you arrive at ground level, you arrive in three-point attitude, all slowed up and ready to squat." Stick and Rudder page 302. In loss of control accidents, speed kills. That would be either enough speed to get high enough that a stall/fall kills or failure to use rudder yaw only to align so that running off the runway fast and hitting things kills. So I think the instructor leaving power off or pulling power would have resulted in a damaged airplane and no fatalities. Sometimes we just have to accept what we have. Even the very experienced Dale Snodgrass, who took off with the control locked full back, could have pulled power and crashed slowly rather than climbing high enough that the stall/fall killed him.
The R22 requires removing controls if the person sitting in the passenger seat isn’t qualified.
Qualification requires documented training as to the extreme danger involved with handling the controls and a sign off.
This is required for anyone… even rated pilots.
Your comment made me curious - looks like it's true of the R44 too.
I've been a front seat passenger with the controls still in.. not a pilot.. but aware enough that touching anything could in no way improve any imaginable situation.
Maybe they were expecting me to sit in the back 🤷
@@incandescentwithrage yes, you have to remove the controls for any Robinson aircraft if anyone will be in the front seat.
Only a person that has received training can sit in the seat with controls in front of them.
Still doesn’t stop people from grabbing the control in the center.
So, better to keep non pilots in the back.
The flight was a trial introductory flight with the passenger having controls because that’s required to do a time loggable TIF and for training flights. The passenger is a “student” in this cases. There are no rules as stated above that say a student pilot has to have the dual controls removed. It only applies for a bona fide passenger not student whose main reason for flying is to fly the aircraft.
@@Jabiru430VHDOD Yes, there actually is a published Robinson safety notice, and required to be placed in the POH (making it a legal requirement) to remove the controls if specific ground training has not been completed and signed off in the students log book.
Yes, this is required for the flight to be legal. Don’t do it, and the person dies, and you by chance survive… you can be charged with criminal manslaughter, and be financially liable for any damage that occurs as a result of the failure to follow the POH.
Robinson helicopters have a rudimentary cyclic and blade design that can readily chop the tail off or cause mast bumping.
So, even an accidental bump into the controls, if it is sufficiently abrupt enough, can cause near instantaneous in flight disintegration of the helicopter.
There are vastly better helicopters out there. Enstrom, Huges/, Schweizer, Bell. There is little to no reason to purchase an inferior flying machine when the payments are nearly the same. And long term maintenance on the inferior product is also prohibitively expensive.
Decades ago, this happened to my squadron commander when I was in the Civil Air Patrol. He owned a Piper Comanche and was taking cadets up for orientation flights. On one flight, the cadet in the right seat panicked during the landing and grabbed the controls. He had to hit the kid with a flashlight to get him to let go of the controls. I believe he stopped giving the orientation flights after that.
That is called A PANIC PULL. My 1999 CFi called it like that. He said some people are bound to Panic Attacks. He had one student also pushing left rudder on bad landings and called that. The Panic Pedal. Some do both. Panic Pull with Panic Pedal, and that means.. A .. Fill the blank... _________. 4 letters only.
Correct that Harrold. Ii is 5 letters... SPinn. LoL..
Another interesting video Terry, such a sad tale.
Back in the 1980s several GA aircraft crashed due to px cameras, camera straps etc fouling the controls. My father used to give a thorough briefing and double check if pxs wanted to take photos. He had one px try to open the door and then lift the window in/on a C150, requiring a side slip to get it closed again, luckily not at a critical stage of flight, but any distraction can be fatal.
We've recently lost a UK registered Sportstar too. Iirc 600' agl, crashed (stalled/spun in) into a trading estate, cause, as yet, unknown.
My dad had to take control twice in training when a low hours instructor either over controlled the aircraft (outside of its operating parameters) or froze during an engine failure on finals. Luckily my father stayed calm, took control, knew what to do (thank God). Not that my father is/was an expert pilot per se, he just knew the aircraft better than locum instructors and made good decisions in critical stages of flight.
Its good to note these incidents, however Im not a fan of the types of video that constantly pore over such.
These days on RUclips if you show a crash the video gets demonetized. I think in this crash a accidental full throttle was applied then panic reactions on the controls.
One tip is that if you can't overpower them then cover their eyes with your hand. The instinct will take over and they will let go of the controls to get your hand out of the way at which point you regain control of the aircraft. I've never had to try it but I heard it works.
You could try that. If it doesn’t work use your two hands to cover your eyes as the plane plummets to the ground.
The instructor asked me to land the Cessna 172 during my "discovery" flight by just following his verbal commands. I think I stalled it about 3 feet off the runway because it touch the pavement with such a loud bang that I thought the wings had fallen off. I looked at him and he was laughing so hard. That was 40 years ago. I went on and got my PP ticket.
I removed the r/h stick in my Alpi to prevent the possibility of this happening - it's very easy to put back in if needed for BFR
r/h?
@@Capecodham righthand
@@kkiwi54 What did you do with the time you saved not typing righthand?
What level of idiot doesn't know what r/h means ?
@@Capecodham way less than having to come back here to explain 😂
Terry, great video, especially for someone new to aviation. Your explanation of the dynamics here on this particular aircraft certainly helped reinforce the need for slow and small control inputs.
I do have to laugh at some of the comments, but please ignore them and keep making your excellent videos, most of us appreciate the effort you put in 👍🙂
Those people at the picnic table had the best seats in the house. Show the impacts man. You being sanctimonious about it is strange.
Couldn't a metal guard be placed on the area of the exposed control rod so that if someone does put their feet hard back it would not affect the control? The horizontal part of the control under your feet only rotates so a cover over it shouldn't impede the control of the aircraft.
What a great video! One of those that makes you feel grateful and privileged to be a pilot!
Warning graphic content...not going to show that ,whats the point of the graphic warning?
Because some would consider what little was shown to be graphic, I would guess. I don't agree personally but then I seem to have a stronger stomach for these things, others may not 🤷♂️
touch grass freak
@@documax123 who?
@@TheFatNumpty you.
@TheFatNumpty no, sorry. The lead comment. My apologies.
I knew after my first few lessons (25 yrs ago) that I'd never want to be a CFI. Went on to get my PPL and have enjoyed flying ever since. My flight school and instructor (he was 22 and I was 32 at the time), wouldn't even *think* of letting me attempt to land, prior to having a full grasp of slow flight, stalls and recovery! Three or four lessons.
RIP 🙏🏾
That elevator trim tab is enormous!
A 28 year old stocky man probably was not afraid during touch down. A 24 year old slender man/instructor probably did not have the strength to overpower the “pilot’s” desire to end it all.
I really like this plane because it's sporty characteristics. For me, this is a more challenging plane than piper or Cessna.
I would say that the exactly same accident could be occurred in any other plane if the passenger decides to pull the joke or stick aft. Is so difficult to overcome the other people's force and, beyond that, keep the plane under control.
About the feet. As you showed, yes it can modify the path but you have a lot of lever created for the long stick and I would say that is very easy to overcome that force just pushing the stick.
I been twice in a situation that I had to yell to the passenger to relax and keep their hands on the legs and keep the legs open. Is good to don't forget that part!
In one opportunity I almost hit in the nose to my passenger. Honestly, you (we all) should be prepared to do that and it should be part of our "checklist". This guy, very brave (according to him), due to an important turbulence, almost grab the stick when I was turning base to final. The best place to do that!
Finally, it's important to let the passengers know the consequences of their actions. Yes! Flying is an amazing experience but... Dear passenger, if you touch this... We can die... and I share this unfortunate accident with them. I do have the video in my iPad. Additionally as part of my landing checklist, I told my passenger, one more time, to keep the hand in the legs and keep the legs open. Finally, as I can predict with some accuracy if "this" is going to be a bummpy approach, I brief my passenger too in what could happen.
The "let go, let go" is terrifying and we all should have a plan in how mitigate that risk and be prepared if that happens to us.
As always, thanks for sharing! You have no idea how much I enjoy your adventures!
Blue skies!
Anybody have a link to the impact?
It’s in the description
@@ShortField No, it is not.
Jeez! What a sad event. Two lads with everything to live for you would think. Thanks for this, Terry. Similarly I don't view air accident debriefs either, unless I believe something can be learned from them. But this was very thoughtfully put together and a good information re the Sport Cruiser 👌🏻👏🏻👏🏻
This is so tragic. I hope your excellent observations are sgared widely in the hope that future tragedies are avoided. RIP to the two souls on board. My heart goes out to the families of both men
"But did the aircraft play a part?"
Absolutely, yes.
Unbelievably poor design choices are pervasive in light aircraft.
Especially regarding human factors, ergonomics, workflow, and of course mis-control.
I had a female flight instructor once. She mentioned that, should I ever not let go of the controls, she'd have to stab me with a pencil...
I agree with what you say, the passenger could also have had a camera which got in the way, although that would have come up in the accident report.
As a separate issue, I watch a lot of accident reports from the US, where there’s an engine failure after take off and like the airport shown it’s surrounded by houses and buildings. There’s literally no where to go, unlike the places you fly from here.
Camera or object jamming the controls would not project the plane like that, it might keep you from pulling the yoke rather. Pilot went TOGA but the harm was done.
Stories like these are what the person I bought my plane from was explaining about being a CFI, some people try and kill you and you never know how theyre going to react until you get up there. Its a serious point I never even thought about until that day. I wanted to become an ultralight CFI one day until he told me that.
This is an unfortunate event. As a light aircraft student pilot, I've never experienced such an event where I would freeze but it creates awareness when I start taking people with me. I am wondering if a good pre-flight briefing will help
Terry
Not sure if you are aware, but the LAA insist on an “additional press button” being added to the elevator trim circuit. This is primarily to stop trim runaway whilst the Autopilot is engaged. This configuration would have certainly stopped any accidental trim input from the pax.
Thanks for sharing this very sad event and the lessons identified. Even in early flexwing lessons i don't let the students even follow through on the controls for this very reason as they could easily over power the instructor. As you have flown with me, I'm sure you could full appreciate how dangerous this could be.
Thanks Giles, it always worries me regardless of what I'm flying.
@@ShortField when ever I fly with another pilot and I'm the pax, I always state especially on Final, I state "hands and feet clear".
after getting my license in cessna I wanted to learn to fly in this. it looks so sleek and modern... one with a glass cockpit. I tried about three flights. and the controls were too sensitive. I was not able to land. plus the travelling speed is too slow. plus overheating engine during taxi, plus very sensitive to turbulence. I've decided to stick to larger planes and never fly in such a small beast again...
I have a hard time believing the instructor would have increased the throttle in those circumstances. Especially if the student was pulling back on the stick as that would have given even more authority to the elevator. But I guess we will never know.
I think the passenger both pulled back on the stick and increased the throttle in some kind of stupid move or to deliberately crash the plane.
I think the pilot would have closed the throttle and let the plane stall close to the ground. The pilot would have known the plane would not have the power for a near vertical climb and recovery from a passenger using his full force on the control column.
Murder suicide by the passenger.
@@Hydrogenblonde I agree but would the plane even have left the ground if the throttle remained at idle (just watched the video again - it isn’t clear from it that the plane had actually landed - the video is rather blurry, but the narrator states that the accident happened after the plane touched down so my comments assume the plane had already landed before the event)? I don’t know the aircraft but apart from the twin engined plane I flew and the tail draggers, if you do a wheel landing instead of a three point landing, all of the other small planes I would flare to land, meaning I flew close to the ground and pulled back on the stick till the plane stalled and settled to the ground. Then depending on how quickly I wanted to stop I have pulled back fully on the stick which raises the nose and produces aerodynamic drag slowing the plane down. Once it stalled and settled to the runway it didn’t matter how hard I pulled back on the stick it didn’t have the airspeed to fly again. Of course if he planted it on the runway like a heavier twin engined plane or a wheel landing of a tail dragger instead of flaring it then he might have had energy to leave the ground again without throttling up and as you said would have stalled closer to the ground and with less elevator authority wouldn’t have pitched up as severely if someone hadn’t increased the throttle. But planting (ie forcing the plane to land without flaring and stalling it) such a light tricycle geared aircraft I imagine is very hard to do without wheelbarrowing or porpoising where the plane bounces on the nose and main gear alternately down the runway as you need to force the plane to stay on the ground by pushing forward on the stick so I doubt the instructor did this.
I love how safety is valued in aviation. What if we had taken safety while driving car as seriously as it is taken in aviation? 20,000 dies in car accidents in EU every year. That's on average 55 people every day. If these two young men had died in a car accident we wouldn't discussed and analyzed it like this, but we should.
If you’re not going to show the actual crash why the warning?
Lord Alan Sugar (Apprentice) is a pilot and tells an interesting story in his biography of airplane geeks who hang around airfields hoping someone will take them up as they can't afford to fly. He found out that these people tend to start fiddling with switches and controls because they know something about flying and can't resist interfering to the point of becoming a menace and even downright dangerous. I had an instructor deliberately turn off the master switch to "simulate" an electrical failure during the approach, implying a landing without flaps. It also had the effect of disabling the fuel boost pump (radio and a few other things) so I switched the electrics back on, but he switched them off again and a battle ensued for control of the situation. Other students complained about his behaviour and he was dismissed eventually.
So you became a menace??!
This was put together very well. I agree with your analysis based on the characteristics of the tail section. And the facts of the accident itself.
I watched the NTSB video of the impact, and the plane just shattered and blew into flames. Not going into context due to reasons. It can be seen via the NTSB official report but wouldn't advise anyone to watch it if your light hearted.
No it can't.
@jonathanr72 I won't link to it, but it can easily be found. Pretty shocking to watch 😢
i looks exactly how a pitch up trim set for landing + adding full power without correcting for the trim would look.crazy
I normally avoid these types of video but you have given a good explanation of what you think might have happened.
Terry you would make an excellent instructor 👌
Very wise advice Terry. Perfect. 👌
Thanks Vince 👍
What a loss and what a tragedy for their families... My most profound condolences to them. RIP
Ahmen.
I know little about planes so this may be a dumb question. Is there any sort of quick disconnect the pilot can engage in the event a student or passenger won’t/can’t release the controls?
How do you know it was an accident ? Cheers
Fantastic point.
Has suicide been considered?
Didn't replace oil filter after oil change? As an aircraft engineer on big jets, that strikes me as a bit odd.
Depends on how many hours it's done. The Tempest filters we use are good for 100 hours, and if at the 50 hour check we're not going to more than 50 hours before the next 50 hour check, we'll leave it on. (We replace it after 12 months regardless). I always open up the filter to check for metal when we do change the filter, and the filters are obviously perfectly good for 100 hours because they still look pretty much brand new.
I had to overpower a nearly unmanageable passenger to get control of the airplane. My next step would have been to disable him. I am a strong man. He wasn’t as strong!
Yes but you end up crashing. You won't be able to KO him on the spot and any struggle will end with the plane falling. Moron is a big problem, not just in planes, but in planes it's just immediately lethal.
A very interesting video.
Theories abound of this tragedy, inevitably. Based on I have picked up here, my own inexpert thought is that the passenger had hands on the stick during landing, maybe even with the pilot's consent as some kind of dual flying deal. But the plane touched down harder and/or more suddenly than the passenger expected, and he instinctively flinched back HARD in his seat, yanking the stick back hard as well.. The plane's dramatic nose up caused him to then freeze, and led to the pilot's yelling of "Let Go!".
I am NOT a pilot. Just been interested in aviation from an early age.
Hi Terry, hope your well! Thanks for the video
Cheers James, all good sir.
What a brilliant design! A control column with heel control!
Unbelievable. . .
So you have no visual indication of where your trim position is?
Yes sir it’s shown on the PFD and the FMS
Passenger should not be landing especially on a demo
Is it possible that the pilot/passenger seat dislodged and slid backwards?
Not possible as the seat is not moveable the pedals adjust though 👍
First time in a Sport cruiser at take off i realised the elevator control was way too light. Accident waiting to happen. I said to owner it needs to be heavier. He replied it had already been modded to make it heavier. I think Piper dropped the aircraft after a while, no it could not be used as a trainer in my opinion after 17k hours in other usual GA types.
Off the subject .Maybe I'm a fool but these 20 something flight instructors scare me,give me a 40 +
seems to me power had to have been applied.
a person completely locking up out of fear is rare, but whats strange is that they touched down apparently before the stick was pushed fully back? what type of person gets an incapacitating type of fear when they are… on the ground? especially after already accustoming yourself for about 30 min on the flight??
It sounds like the struggle began just before landing and the mic was keyed so the instructor could be heard struggling to maintain control of the aircraft.
Incidents like these are why I didn't become an instructor. Have an instructor friend who had to repeatedly elbow a student in the face to get him off the controls, scary!
Seems like the torque tube should have a cover protecting it from being jammed either by a passenger's feet or a loose article in the cabin.
Cessna 172s have a similar issue that seems like a flaw to me: in the footwell area the control cables run vertically. If you turn your toes toward the center with the pedal in certain positions you can jam your own foot in that space both putting pressure on the control cable and preventing you from operating the rudder or brakes. Why that isn't covered by a panel to prevent such issues I cannot imagine.
A PAX jumping on the controls is my nightmare scenario. Still a student but have had a bad dream about my wife panicking and grabbing the yoke once I have my certificate.
Take them up to safe altitude (min 5,000') and have them learn to place the aircraft into a 30 degree banked turn. Ensure they understand "power to climb" not pitch.
Any statistics of pilot or front passenger wearing only lap seat belt, passing out and falling into the yoke, how can you recover from a vertical dive with all their weight pressing against the yoke? As a commercial pilot, I have had large overweight folks in the right seat and always wondered the outcome. I can see the benefits of shoulder harnesses on all aircraft.
No passengers in the front seats. Only pilots trained in this specific aircraft’s vulnerabilities to human error. Especially in a precision, high quality, highly maneuverable airplane. Sorry for the loss of people and an excellent aircraft. It has an Achilles heel.
It only has 2 seats, where will passenger sit ?
I flew that exact plane in 2017 on my intro flight at Santa Monica. It’s really chilling to see this.
This is crazy cause I was right next to the airport when this happen. So sad.
A finger poke in the eye will cause most people to let go of what they're holding and grab their face.
Such an unbelievable accident, they are landing nicely it seems, touched the runway and then decided to climb like a rocket
The column design and trim design is a seriously bad defect.
Fly many side by side trainers?
Hey Juan!!!!
You mention the short fuselage a couple of times and it confused me. Surely a short fus *reduces* the effectiveness of the elevator? Isn't this the reason for the large control surface area, rather than something which contributes to its power?
Sometimes you have to be prepared to knock your passenger out. Happened to my uncle after turning base to final when he was instructing. Rolled the aircraft inverted.
I have not flown this type of LSA but did not see any mention in the comments regarding the very strong nose up pitch couple that occurs during a go-around, or a touch and go with full flap. I have recently completed a type rating in a Bristel LSA with a 140hp Rotax and can confirm that the throttle must be advanced relatively slowly to keep pace with the electric trim or a very high forward stick force is needed to prevent overpitching. These light modern LSAs react very quickly and can get you into trouble fast compared to older underpowered GA aircraft I learned on.
Trim left/ right switch... Cover on the bottom of the control column.. larger anti servo tab... limit upward travel of the elevator
Problems solved.
Sport cruizer are you listening?
Are the seats adjustable in this craft? Could it be that the passenger released the seat and it rolled back, with the passenger grabbing the stick to pull himself forward?
Sorry for the late reply, no the seats are part of the airframe and are fixed, the pedals adjust.
Nice thing with my Robinson R22..
I can and do disconnect the passenger side controls. (Its never actually ever fitted.)
Deepest respects to families.
This is pretty dangerous airplane for training !
No, it is not. There is no such thing.
@@ToddDunning Sorry,but, if I was FAA just for the trim it would never be approved for training
@@ToddDunningoh there are definitely dangerous aircraft out there. The quicky q2 for example. I wouldn't call this an overly dangerous aircraft but there are some clear design issues outlined in this video
@@thecanadianavee8r660 if it has 'tricky design issues", why does it even leave the ground in the 1st place?
Will YT not allow the entire video to be seen?
The link to the full video is in the description. I chose not to show the impact because it didn't add to the video and I think I need to respect the family of the two young guys who were killed.
I would like to know a bit about the "student". My first thought when watching the video was the student plays computer flight games and he was trying to imitate a fighter doing a high power pass and vertical climb and the instructor could get him to let go.. I am sure he was not that stupid but seems strange the power was at max and the plane climbed that much after flare.
It would make sense if this was just an instant reaction by the student and had he let go that would have been the correct thing to do but as the student hung onto the stick it turned out the wrong thing but who would have suspected that in that instant!
How do you touch down with that much energy in the plane?
Aside from the trim adjustments, there appear to be no further issues with this aircraft. As mentioned regarding the radio communication, when the pilot is heard saying "let go" accompanied by grunts from another, it suggests that the passenger may have been taken by surprise, or possibly suffered a seizure or stroke, leading to the grabbing of the control stick, which could explain the events observed in those final tragic moments.
I think if I had one. FOR SALE! Piper Sport, one careful owner.
Passengers should never have sole control of any aircraft, even oversized toys. As a pilot you should know to keep your feet on the rudder pedals and heels on the floor. These planes are like toys
I'm not a CFI but in my aircraft the right stick comes out for newbies in the right seat (Vans RV not a pipersport). It would not take much for a panicked passenger to kill you when you are close to the ground.
Were you afraid to state another possibility of an intentional act of suicide?
that was my first thought.....
@@andrewglover9608 Anyone trying to kill themself would likely pitch down in to the runway during landing rather than pitch up, what happened suggested the passenger possibly panicked when they saw the ground approaching so fast and they instinctively pulled back to pitch up.
@@krashd Indeed thats possible, sadly we'll never know the full story.
Lots of value from reading these accident reports. I get a weekly email from the AAIB containing all that they’ve published in the week and look to see relevant reports but I think I’m in the minority of pilots that do so
What about adding a small strip on the floor ahead of the control stick to keep their feet away?
I can image wanting to push the stick forward in a blind panic to brace away from the windshield but why would anyone opt to pull back? Tragic.