I will state my case here: I never intended to cause drama, and hope it ends so we can all move on in the community. I apologize to Josh for not crediting him and under-explaining the scenario. I did not realize he made the scenario, as it was released on Monsieur Z's channel. I also did not have the time to explain the full context. We were poking fun a little bit, but we did that to the other maps as well, including some by myself. I apologize for any offensive, none was meant. Also, if anyone wants to attack/criticize my content: Feel free to, I make plenty of mistakes. In the same vein, I also apologize for any comments on my discord. They were made callously, thinking they would never be seen by others in the "privacy" of my own discord server. My comment regarding Josh' growth being attributed to Monsieur Z was out of line, and downplays the great effort and videos made by Josh. While criticism should always be fine, I do not want to insult other creators, and will make sure I am more sensitive in the future. But the continuation of Josh's video beyond the first point were wrong, and far outside of the scope that the drama needs to be. He doesn't like my content, that is fine, he absolutely doesn't have to. But me, Monsieur Z and him all make both realistic and unrealistic alternate histories, and that is great! Maybe I lean more towards the unrealistic side recently, but that is my creative choice. There is no reason to bash me for it this hard. Especially since the criticisms made towards me were not always correct. Josh states the "Viewers voted" videos are somehow videos made by my viewers. This is not the case. I am involved 100% in the creation of the video from beginning to end. All the viewers do is respond to a poll I create on the matter. My videos may be considered junk food due to the low production quality, but that is simply due to my incompetence: I never had any experience making videos, and am literally learning on the job as I go here. Regarding the final point, I am mostly a-political. I disagree with both extremes, and absolutely do not have an agenda while making my videos. I am not part of a larger leftist plot to take over alternate history. Regardless of political affiliation, anyone should be free to create alternate history video - and its up to the community to pick their favorites. I ask for all history channels to leave this behind, and each move on creating our own content as we see fit.
Based and blessed response bro, I do feel that Josh totally overstep with his initial call out and I do see many old comments about him being true(not particularly good ones)
Yea when I saw his video and listened to it it was just kind of pointless. Your content is meant to be kind of pop history and like more out there Alt history because its fun and obviously fun alternate history does get more views and thats fine I enjoy your videos where your subscribers choose the fate of europe after ww1 and soo on. Idk why he had to make it political either. Like I think it was on Monsiuer Z vid on "could the British empire reunite" or something where he literally gets alt history hub to do a part in that video. Soo idk why Josh wanted to point politics out even tho Monsiuer Z and Althisthub have collaborated before. This all does seem kind of pointless and unnecessary objectively and an attempt by Josh (who I am more aligned with politically) to politicise the alternate history community which I dont see a point in.
Bro I saw that shit from Josh and I was like wtf is wrong with yall; shit is not that deep. Like, I still love Josh. He's a real hooper and all but dood. Everyone needs to de-escalate their shit and by Everyone I mean Josh.
I cant believe we actually have alt history beef. It seems like insanity to me cant wait for fantasy book writers to start arguing like ”NO! Your imaginary world suck! Its not real enough!”
it seems silly but I think it was just a matter of time Altho this is all fun an all there is a political aspect when you make history And when you get politics involved there is just shit waiting to happen
Whatifalthist is like, one of the few guys who we can't have as a part of the community because his ideals are inheritly linked to quashing other people's ideals.
He doesnt even make alternate history anymore. He just spews out his political views and makes posts trying to anger people who dont share his political beliefs.
@@500938fuland when he does make Alt history videos, you will always hear something about a supposed resurgence of the Ottoman Empire returning and destroying the balkans, or something else crazy along those lines.
I never thought the Alt History community would have drama since it's just a bunch of people looking at maps and writing down massive paragraphs of fiction but here we are, but genuinely I honestly want the drama to stop
If we had something like the UN where for alt history youtuber where the big ones must attend, we could stop conflicts like very easiliy. If you don't like what someone is doing, just go here and discuss it with the reast of youtubers instead of atacking his side and discussing it with your friends.
honestly i think possible history genuinley thought this map was mister z's map and was just being playfully rude to his freind. it takes a bit of logic to tell you that josh sullivan is overeacting a ton
I agree he shouldn’t have called out other RUclipsrs but this wasn’t a private chat withe his friends it was online The discord messages are rude but it’s not the end of the world since it’s more or less private and most people won’t see it but publicly shiting on some ones work withe out even trying to understand it is just rude
@@dyolohI both agree and disagree. What PH did was immature at best, but Josh went all in against PH when he didn't have to, it's like if someone threw a rock at you and then you grab a gun
The Z is a nazi thing came from him making a video where he argued for American ethnostates or something, it was such a long time ago now I only remember it because it was the first time I had ever heard the concept lol
In fairness he’s also had a history of… questionable comments up until recently. (Looking at the What if America Stayed Great vid) Then again I have personally grievances given he personally called me “Fredda’s mindless bot army” or something along those lines for a comment I made about some issues I had with his approach to alt history and interpretation of historical actors & demographics from the perspective of someone who has academic and work expertise in political economy, so I’m not one to sling mud here. Also just as a black second-gen American I’m inherently suspicious of anyone who talks about how much better things were before desegregation and the 1962 end of immigration quotas.
Surprisingly, Z’s/Dean’s viewers even though they lean conservative will check him on his bs like when a lot people pointed out as a Catholic Italian-American, maybe he shouldn’t be making nativist arguments.
I’ve been with Josh since 1.4k. I knew his biases, and didn’t care since he made cool stuff. I am also a long time sub of PH, and I enjoyed that too. As soon as I saw that thumbnail, I knew Josh really stepped in it.
Plus, I’m still holding out hope that the many alt historians of RUclips can pull their support together for an epic project. Like a movie or tv show for the fans. Think about what we could accomplish if we didn’t tear each other down for petty reasons. Then precede to enflame the situation by causing a split in the fandom.
I dont understand how you could support josh tbh, i occasionally watch cody, so im in no way in tune with alt history, never heard of josh or PH prior to this, decided to watch *some* videos of each. Josh takes himself as a historian. way to serious for a subgenre of Fiction. newsflash, Althistory can be classified as Shitposts. PH may be a bad person, with bad takes etc, but he doesnt take himself serious with the Alt-history content. so.. just based on that, i‘d take ph‘s side.. josh needs to do better.
@@imbored667 IDK brodie from what ive seen PH just constantly shits on mr. Z for being right wing (???) idk his real reason it just like suddenly started. I watch both of them and i honestly like both of their content, its just that PH seems to be an asshole for no other reason. Josh might of been ranting on some of the parts but honestly id be mad too if (without any imput from me or my friends) a person started shitting on everything my friend did and praying on his downfall.
The super unrealistic stuff Possible History does is IMO, his best content. It's just fiction anyway, and I think what makes Possible History different is that he focusses on storytelling over realism. In that zombie one, it's more about the way Stalin abandons his own ideology in persuit of supreme magical power and world domination, and the Tito Rome one is just really funny.
“Eeeerrr, this silly (dangerous?!) fool doesn’t seem to understand that the Marxist view of history is the correct interpretation of history as a matter of facts ddrrr.” - Freda
Idk what it is about possible history, but he's like the only channel I don't find boring, I click one video and then I'm binge watching another 2 while other channels kind of lose me at the intro
@@ilovecakecanihaveapiece oh man i remember from 3-5 years ago when the countryballs videos about alt history and paint maps. Is like the same. I could argue in favor of ph than he talks in the introduccion lees than others maybe
I really like this take, but about how Josh got offended that PH said he only got where he is through Mr. Z, and then saying PH only got where he was through cody and tigerstar, I think what he was trying to say was that PH was being a little hypocritical because he COULD (and did) say the same about him. Hope this clears that up, and doesn't make it more complicated.
While yes, both are true, there is a difference between PH's experience and Josh's experience. While both PH and Josh did arguably get to where they are today due to having much larger channels behind them, PH as far as I can tell would've gotten there anyway, and just used the interactions with larger channels to make new, better, sometimes even relatively innovative content, whereas Josh doesn't seem to have very much success on his own, and seems to use colabs, etc as a crutch with which to prop up his channel's numbers. I hope this viewpoint creates reasonable, productive discussion
I remember finding possible history, videntis and rewriting history because their videos got recommended. Josh I noticed there were like 4 josh videos on z's channel
Yeah like the American revolution had its basis in England's abuse of their power over the colonies, and the revolution succeeded because they had Washington, the French helped them, their indipendence didn't come out of left field. There are obviously factors that can come out of nowhere like for example climate change maybe lead the sea people to raid and maybe that lead to the collapse of the bronze age (or the collapse brought the sea people to raid) and that changed the middle east forever, so I can't say history is completely devoid of logic, it's just that sometimes there are many factors and events (some more obscure) that lead to that outcome.
The quickest way to bring people of political divide together is through a common measure. That is objective or rational that is difficult to argue against. What is that measure? Well, that is something you need to come up with. I believe you, Monsieur and Tigerstar are qualified so long as the three of you work together can come up with some sort of test or procedure you can use to verify what is likely to happen given scenarios that are present and the information that is provided. If not, so long as you are willing to work with me, we will come up with something Videntis. I believe the best means to verify this test is by using a historian or history enthusiast like Metatron. Someone who has dealt with alt-history kind of stuff and is a very pronounce critic of such. So if the three of you or just you and me can come up with someone and Metatron can grant us that green light of approval, I believe the fighting between the alt-historians will come to an end. Although to be fair, fighting between historians is quite common. I had History professors at Old Dominion University that will get into fisticuffs over citation issues. If you are interested, please let me know.
PH literally is the soul reason why I got interested in history and I have learned so much about geography, and many little things about certain points in history. He makes history fun and educational which is very impressive.
The problem I have with alternate history is how everyone tries to be realistic and instead of committing to a scenario brushes off many things as "butterfly effect which makes things unpredictable". My favorite althist author on RUclips is Ripped Lincoln who doesn't shy away from naming characters that were born in the alternate timeline. His Manzikert series is a prime example of how to balance some realism and description of the historical period with creative freedom and engaging storytelling.
I had no idea that any of this was going down but um… best of luck and well-being to all alternate history creators out there. I sincerely appreciate and enjoy the work that you all put out here and dedicate parts of your lives to. I hope the conflict can be resolved, whatever it is, and that social feelings amongst us might be returned. Thank you, be well
Alternate History RUclips beef, bound to happen but sad to see. The more different people do content, the more the odds go up for drama. Hopefully everyone resolves stuff and goes back to making excellent videos for our collective community
Very well spoken video. I absolutely love the mapping community, whether it's historical content, alt-historical content, or downright fictional/sci-fi content. I've loved mapping communities since I was a child and it sucks seeing disputes, drama, and conflict happen between these communities - honestly that goes for any community I am apart of. I really hope everyone can just make up a leave it be. We all have an interest in the same things, there isn't a reason we should be conflicting.
This may be the last peace attempt, the tension has been somewhat there for a while sadly and this wonderful and diverse community needs to band together not split apart
Heres the thing for people saying no politics in history. History is extremely political by default you cant ignore the politics when making alt history projects as some things just dont work because of the politics keen example being the silver legion of america itd be very hard for that to have actually happend.
@cubefreak123 cept when that criticism falls down to name calling and phobic slinging those aren't arguments. No shade at you more for the other guys screaming Nazi at everything
@@damiangaming5696I mean it depends. If someone is consistently spouting racist shit you call them a racist. If someone consistently says communist things you call them a commie. It’s not baseless name calling if it’s true.
Someone said it in Josh’s video, but we officially have Alternate History Tuber Beef before GTA6. Idk what happened, who knows truly what did other than Josh and the other’s involved? But this is definitely something that could’ve been resolved in private. Certain things sound a bit more baby-ish when publicly said rather than privately.
Mister Z had once a video "What if america stayed great" and in the comments he said "America was way safer and better for everyone when the white man had dominance over it, (talking about segregation)". This is way many say he is far right (which he is). Please respond to this comment if possible. Love your videos
It was the opposite. They had a debate about death penalty and then eventually it devolved into turd flinging by Tigerstar and then Z called him a gay furry.
to paraphase potenial history's video in his "germany could not win world war 2", "its make for good how4 games but when you think about serious you go on assumption onto assumption until you are basically writing fan fiction."
yeah he made fun of that but that’s the criticisms he had PH doesn’t put effort into it he didn’t bother to watch a video that he was gonna make fun of because it’s not realistic and that’s another reason he was complaining he dose barely any althistory on his own so why shit on other althist for being unrealistic when you almost never try to make realistic althist
If I’m correct, they were looking at photos of alt history maps as a community, so of course he’s not going to watch a video for context because it’s lighthearted community stuff not genuine criticism of the alt history the map is based in.
I mean I stopped watching Z about two years ago probably because of his political views and how they impact his alt history. I forget the one guys name who talks about ‘cultural battles’ and about ‘cycles of history’ which is a crackpot alt history youtuber. I’m fine being like both sides are fine or whatever, but sometimes you have to look at the impact these people have on others views of history and maybe they should be criticized for how their content impacts people who watch it.
That is a terrible opinion given these circumstances, as neither side is remotely close to scrutinisation worthy extremes in terms of political statements, especially when compared to other parts of the internet. All that would do is add a viewer run authoritarian problem where certain conversations can’t be had. Which would be a tragedy, it would end up with questions such as “where on the blessed to evil scale does colonialism sit? and all the layers to it from all perspectives though history and how it has genuinely affected development for better and worse across the world” an example I chose since it’s a big part of history that is interesting, very layered with a seriously mixed bag of results and actions, but would absolutely be off the table if we start punishing people when a portion of the community doesn't like whatever the opinion or worse, general topic is. Restricting political expression should be reserved for when you start pinning the blame on a certain people based on their genetics or some other un changeable train that has no real bases and is objectively just there to produce hate. Basically, I think restricting the accepted level of political expression too much just alienates plenty of perfectly fine people with the bad ones which can give easy recruits as they feel unwelcome in the alternatives, it wipes out important and/or though provoking discussions that can give us a much better understanding of history and the human perspective from more sides, and it adds an artificial strictness that would ruin the genuine freedom of expression that gives this broader community its sense of many personalities and good debates.
it has been so painfull seeing all this alt history drama on my reccomended so i try not to click on it but i cant so somthinhg a lot more chill is a very nice break from the useless drama
Well, at least this time there's no way Emperor Tigerstar can blame Monsieur Z for all the drama and cancel any planned collaboration. Seriously though, the Alt History community should really stop ripping itself apart every single generation. I'm not a fan of Emperor Tigerstar but that Twitter drama was really petty, I was devastated that the collab between them and AltHistHub was cancelled due to misunderstandings.
9:42 I think the Fascism allegations started when he made a video apparently supporting eugenics (I never watched it) and iirc from when I watched him back in like 2017 he did make some weird scenarios. But I don't remember the specifics.
Yeah I'm 100% guilty of the Mr. Z stuff honestly. Thanks for giving me a reflection of my character and hope we can end this by Christmas :) (or by sooner idk just fitting with the ww1 theme).
just ignore reddit & twitter in all shapes and forms, if you generate a fanbase encourage them to be peaceful, and other than that you should be fine now that i think about it this should be standard for most channels that want to make it big but gets forgotten
Having worked exclusively with the Josh Sullivan/Monsieur Z crowd, I agree generally with the points you made. Josh got a little mad, PH was poking fun and accidentally struck a nerve, and everything could've been handled in DMs and such. Let's hope the Alternate History community decides to be a bit friendlier in the future. Who knows... maybe even Cody and Dean will collab again sometime in the future (unlikely but still).
For me it's just another right vs left thing. Just in a different cover. I hope that althist community won't divide or else topic would be dead. P.S I respect both sides of debate
yeah it is,PH trashed on Z because he is right winger and Josh made some valet criticism but then started trashing all the left wing althist Chanel’s And as said in the video this comes from an old argument between tigerstar and Z Wher “the lines where drown” for the left and right side of althist
I would argue making an alternate history is like a very different version of a crossword puzzle or some other sort of logic game. It’s meant to be a fun way to stimulate imagination, problem solving, and general thinking processes while sometimes getting the added benefit of learning more about culture, politics, and economics. It should be a gateway into further study of the past. For example, Kaiserreich is an excellent alternate history scenario that’s both deeply interesting in its own environment while also providing context that encourages people to learn more about the people behind the what ifs. When I played Kaiserreich myself I was immensely interested in Huey Long, a southern American whose name I had never heard despite being southern myself. I checked out a lot of the hidden information the mods put in random places and eventually branched out into learning more about him from RUclips videos, then books and museums, and I’m even writing a paper on him now. That is the sort of growth that alternate history can and should encourage, the true beauty behind what seems silly at face value. Alternate history is a field I cherish and I hate to see the creators behind it tearing themselves apart over petty nonsense while ignoring the spirit of the exercise.
The only truly serious AltHistory serie that i've read was "The Footprint of Mussolini" which had an astounding amount of detail and research put into it.
This whole argument is dumb. Josh went from ‘Possible History is insulted my map’ to political left v right. Just because I’m a socialist doesn’t mean I can’t like right wing alt history, and the same can go for right-wing people liking left-wing alt history. We both should enjoy it and find it informative, if not about actual facts then about how the other political spectrum reacts to us. Except for literal Nazis and Stalinists and any other purge-supporting maniacs, this community is open for you.
EXACTLY. I’m politically aligned with z for the most part, more right leaning then him in several regards I’d say which isn’t hard as this whole thing is mostly just exaggerating each sides true position in politics. I love watching more left leaning alt his videos if they’re a good video, you said it perfectly, unless the political view is so far in either direction you’re at nazi and Marxist levels, the video has full potential to be wonderfull. It’s sad that politics has polarised this community the way we are seeing.
I need help finding my political spectrum. I’m for Hamiltonian Presidential Monarchy, Robert A Heinlein’s Starship Troopers novel version earned voting rights and right to run for office , Localism and Regionalism, Distribtism, Authoritative Minarchy so Powers that are constitutionally allowed are absolute and then everything else is left alone. Those In higher positions of authority receive harsher punishments for committing crimes, Prison Reform where its Punitive and Rehabilitative but once your sentence, parole, probation is completed you are no longer have barriers and have your constitutional rights back. So I basically said fuck the spectrum
"Omg! someone called my map funny and ridiculous!!! Obviously they don't know anything about history and treat history as something non-educational!!! I can't believe they would make videos of obviously fake bizaree scenarios!! Oh hi Mr Z! My good friend! How's the "What if Austria Hungary was made out of Chocolate video!"
Hey there, you're right, and probably the way most of the community should be thinking. Let's build each other up, rather then tearing each other down. I love how neutral you are. Keep up the good work!!❤❤❤
Interestingly, on the Periphery of this conflict in the Alternate History Community lies some lesser-known Alt History RUclips channels that I wish would get more support such as ; What Why How, Planet AltHistory, History's Influence, Rewriting History, The Alternate Historian, ScholaroftheWorld, Neatling, Porphyrios History, The What if Multiverse of History, Alternative History Penguin, The Alternate Atlas and that Annoying American.
Yo Videntis Congrats Man! I love it that your not taking sides and trying to calm down the whole situation. I also think its not worth it for alternate history channels to fight about sth. Love your vids and personality Videntis ❤
Honestly, I used to follow Mister Z but he lost me when he started to get political. Painting the party opposed to his as conspirators trying insidiously to subvert Americans freedom was going a few stretches too far for me. I don't know if that's how he intended to make some of his videos sound but that's certainly how they sounded (especially the ones on a potential second american civil war). To be clear, I am not American and don't align with the democrats nor the republicans. I don't follow the other alternate history channels mentioned in this video either (except AlternateHistoryHub) so I really don't care about who said what. I just feel like Mister Z gave the same vibes of tribalism Videntis is rightfully cautioning us against and I'm not about that.
He's actually right about his political opponents trying to subvert america. In fact, they openly admit this is exactly what they want to do. It's not his opinion, it is quite literally their party platform, which they will openly share at any given opportunity
You see, a lot of people on the right here that Z is persecuted because he's a right-winger and think 'Oh, he's a Conservative/Libertarian/Paleocon/Republican like me' when he's ideologically further right than any of those. I won't slur him as a Nazi as I don't think he's an outright Nazi, I do think he does have a lot of far-right sympathies with his more questionable views on race relations and American Nationalism which doesn't just bleed into his content but sometimes outright advocates for it with his more political videos.
@@bruhicusmomentus3060 Considering the state the country is in it's a natural reaction. Race relations are at an an all time low and it's largely due to massive, inreconcilable cultural differences. Regardless of that, I would rather watch content from someone who may be biased but is honest about his/her beliefs than someone who clearly is biased but acts like they are impartial. This is the difference I have noticed between right and left wing creators Right wingers will openly state every belief they have and explain in precise detali the reasoning behind all of them, where as Left wingers, no matter how far left they are, will always pretend to be much more neutral and unbiased than they actually are
Mad respect bro I really love to hear this. This is what we need more of in the worlds as a whole. I just found your channel and will sub. The joke was good too, it made me laugh it was just perfectly dry.
I would like to have the luxury of being able to chill. These people have been attacking me and my friends for years, and calling us all sorts of horrid names. If alternate history was never serious, why did he attack my scenario? I don’t want to fight, but I didn’t start this. It was a long time coming.
@@SouthDakotaFacts look, I agree it doesn't matter, but "chill out, it dont matter" isn't an argument, clearly it matters to him so you have to provide actual reasoning to make any sort of difference
Ok I was just told by someone in the comment section that I needed to provide reasoning for why I think you need to chill your tits, so that’s what I’m gonna do. Josh, I think you responded excessively and unreasonably to a matter which you could have handled better. Firstly, I think you should have just reached out to him in private rather than just trying to cancel him. Secondly, he wasn’t laughing at you or trying to make fun of your map, he just made a lighthearted comment on your map. He knows Alt Hist maps are goofy. He himself makes some of the most memed maps ever. So when you see Europe divided into two colors that make it seem like the entirety of catholic europe United, he wasn’t criticizing your scenario, he just thought it looked odd. Thirdly, I don’t think not being credited is something to fuss over because IT WAS ON MZs channel. If you were on his channel as a guest, it wouldn’t be crazy to assume Mr z might have drawn the map and you did the talking. Thirdly, you criticizing his legitimacy is so unbelievably stupid. You just cherry-picked his meme videos and said “oh, PH does meme videos, so he can’t criticize me” like your some scholarly source on ALTERNATE FUCKING HISTORY. Not a single but of alternate history should be taken seriously, it’s fiction buddy. If anything, you’re the one taking it too seriously. Now, fourthly, I do think some of what PH said about you and Mr Z was uncalled for, but like I said, you should have addressed him privately, or at the very minimum, not take personal jabs at his channel. Overall, I think only a few of your criticisms were legit, and the way you went about talking about them was VERY unprofessional.
Just off the bat, I like everyone involved in this aside from wiah and fredda, they just never cam up on my radar. I think Josh had a reasonable complaint at the start, and I have no idea what sort of behind the scenes conversations were had, if any. But the rest of the video went in a direction that was uncalled for. I'm not from the US but mr Z doesn't seem that bad, just further right than me. PH does seem like he needs to be brought down back down to earth though from the looks of it.
With all due respect I couldn’t disagree with your assessment of Z more. He’s made some extremely suspicious statements like segregation being ok for African Americans as long as they “played by the rules” along with alot of other stuff that I can’t remember at the moment.
Mr Z: german empire Josh sullivian history: austria hungary Whatifalthist: ottoman empire Asian pie (or whateve his name is): bulgaria Althistoryhub: uk Tigerstar: france Possible history: serbia
hello videntis i want to tell you that i have always loved geography. amd i am in a rough spot right now with my uncle and grandmother both passing away, and your videos really help me focus my mind on some of my interests. :)
17:06 nice thought but uh, horrible in practice i'll not hear out right wing people, especially when they get to the part about whether i deserve human rights or not :3
Historians beefing with eachother over fictional realities to me is weird. It hurts the whole community, and as long as your argument/scenario has reasonable evidence and an interesting storyline, then it makes for good content. Politics should not be a part of these and an unbiased approach is always best.
None of these guys are historians (at least as far I know) . That's a insult to people who spend years to get there diplomas. All these alt history guys are just redditors who think they are political geniuses, because they made "WhAt If GeRmAnY wOn Ww1?????" video or play paradox games.
i think ALT-history doesnt have to be ultra realistic, i want it to be fun, i WANT small countries going against all odds and winning a BIG war with big boy countries, i dont want it to be boring ultra realistic.
I couldn't agree more on what you said on the Alternate History community. Such a small and niche community shouldn't tear itself apart, it is best if it stays united, so that it can thrive and grow.
To sum it all up, history as we know it took the completely realistic path, and in some areas we came close to a divergent path to our timeline, example Germany ACTUALLY just NEARLY, NEEEARLY won the First World War, the French were close to breaking and when America was brought in it restored morale for the French, so yes, there was an EXTREMELY close possibility to see a Kaiser Reich
I am just saying as person who been following the Althis Community for a while and I thinks best if these two communities don't interact with interact with each other. PH should never have snarked at Josh's map if he did not know anything about it, and Josh shouldn't have made his video. If we can't civil about it, just let there be two communities instead of one because that how already is.
I can't lie I just wanna meme about this rivalry through WW1 analogies and jokes. Monsieur Z's side seems like the Central Powers. AHB can be France, Videntis as Greece, and I'll have to think of the rest.
Unrelated to the drama but one thing Ive always loved about Possible History is that he experiments and tries new things with the alternate history genre.
I don’t see alt-history stuff as always educational it’s more just entertainment factor. Isn’t “junk food” what entertainment kinda is? I mean his content is fun, that’s the point.
{For context i am left leaning politically so, u know bias] Honestly i couldnt care less about the personal non political drama like its weird ww1 esque nobody really is on the good side thing even if im leaning on Possible historys side But id like to point out the political aspect a bit more. honestly the worst part about Josh Sullivans video is that while defending Monsiieur Z {Which while i absolutely despise cause of his massive bias i could get defending} but also seems to subtly be defending whatifalthist which has been denounced by most althistory channels out there for having some reactionary takes. The whole thing just seems really hypocritical to me as while he is angry about bias he seems to be defending people who are atleast in my opinion more biased and sometimes straight up hateful. 16:25 Also i think all sides would agree fascists are not in fact welcome in the community. But at the end of the day to quote althistory hubs comment on Joshes video: "It was a funny map"
@@DrMosseeay I think communism/socialism is dumb but unlike fascism they arent inherently hateful while yes the wast majority of communist countries we're but unlike fascism their believers usually arent And even if you dont believe all that sure lets exclude communism as well, if it means excluding fascists.
It’s not just the reactionary takes, it’s using academically-bankrupt theories for assessing history and demanding it confirm with one’s ideology. WIAH pushes theories into his videos that play to a certain base, to phrase it one way. I’m also generally left-leaning but I enjoy videos from a variety of folks - like I don’t always agree with Mr Beat’s views but I appreciate him, his energy, his commitment to education and understanding, and that we both are coming in accepting a common understanding of history. We allow our views to be molded by what we learn, not the other way around - and I can’t help when watching videos from folks like WIAH or Z but to have the feeling that they’re trying to mold history to match their ideology. Something I really enjoy about PH is that in his scenarios or these group RPs, he tries to stress what’s logical and could have happened, not playing out personal dream scenarios or going out-of-character. I think that’s something more althist folks should consider with their videos.
So, WIAH is a reactionary you say (which isn't being a fascist, btw) and he should be excluded from the alt history community where we have open communists around? Don't get me wrong, pushing your politics on a hobby is a low move, but him having "takes" is not enough to ostracize someone from the hobby. Like, in WH40K, we have to deal with literally all type of political fauna, and that's ok.
I will state my case here:
I never intended to cause drama, and hope it ends so we can all move on in the community.
I apologize to Josh for not crediting him and under-explaining the scenario. I did not realize he made the scenario, as it was released on Monsieur Z's channel. I also did not have the time to explain the full context. We were poking fun a little bit, but we did that to the other maps as well, including some by myself. I apologize for any offensive, none was meant. Also, if anyone wants to attack/criticize my content: Feel free to, I make plenty of mistakes. In the same vein, I also apologize for any comments on my discord. They were made callously, thinking they would never be seen by others in the "privacy" of my own discord server. My comment regarding Josh' growth being attributed to Monsieur Z was out of line, and downplays the great effort and videos made by Josh. While criticism should always be fine, I do not want to insult other creators, and will make sure I am more sensitive in the future.
But the continuation of Josh's video beyond the first point were wrong, and far outside of the scope that the drama needs to be. He doesn't like my content, that is fine, he absolutely doesn't have to. But me, Monsieur Z and him all make both realistic and unrealistic alternate histories, and that is great! Maybe I lean more towards the unrealistic side recently, but that is my creative choice. There is no reason to bash me for it this hard. Especially since the criticisms made towards me were not always correct. Josh states the "Viewers voted" videos are somehow videos made by my viewers. This is not the case. I am involved 100% in the creation of the video from beginning to end. All the viewers do is respond to a poll I create on the matter. My videos may be considered junk food due to the low production quality, but that is simply due to my incompetence: I never had any experience making videos, and am literally learning on the job as I go here.
Regarding the final point, I am mostly a-political. I disagree with both extremes, and absolutely do not have an agenda while making my videos. I am not part of a larger leftist plot to take over alternate history. Regardless of political affiliation, anyone should be free to create alternate history video - and its up to the community to pick their favorites. I ask for all history channels to leave this behind, and each move on creating our own content as we see fit.
Based and blessed response bro, I do feel that Josh totally overstep with his initial call out and I do see many old comments about him being true(not particularly good ones)
you guys should settle this the civilized way: 1v1 on clash of clans
@@kingdomofgenevamapping no like true history nerds
1v1 hoi4
mucho texto
Yea when I saw his video and listened to it it was just kind of pointless. Your content is meant to be kind of pop history and like more out there Alt history because its fun and obviously fun alternate history does get more views and thats fine I enjoy your videos where your subscribers choose the fate of europe after ww1 and soo on.
Idk why he had to make it political either. Like I think it was on Monsiuer Z vid on "could the British empire reunite" or something where he literally gets alt history hub to do a part in that video. Soo idk why Josh wanted to point politics out even tho Monsiuer Z and Althisthub have collaborated before.
This all does seem kind of pointless and unnecessary objectively and an attempt by Josh (who I am more aligned with politically) to politicise the alternate history community which I dont see a point in.
This is like watching WW1 play out except it's between a bunch of internet content creators and is significantly less impactful on the world.
Exactly what an Alternative history would look like 💀
Very true
@@veryregularname We should call it "The First Alt Hist War"
| Nations |
★ Entente ★ : Possible History = Serbia
Emperor-Tigerscar = Great Britain
Alternate-History Hub = Russia
★ Central Powers ★ : Josh Sullivan History = Austria-Hungary
Monsieur Z = German Empire
Whatifalthist = Ottoman Empire
★ Neutral ★ : Videntis = Switzerland
rewriting-history = Holland
Changes Log :
0.1 ( Emperor tigerscar is now Britain + Fixed )
0.2 ( Whatifalthist changed to Ottoman )
Bro I saw that shit from Josh and I was like wtf is wrong with yall; shit is not that deep. Like, I still love Josh. He's a real hooper and all but dood. Everyone needs to de-escalate their shit and by Everyone I mean Josh.
I cant believe we actually have alt history beef. It seems like insanity to me cant wait for fantasy book writers to start arguing like ”NO! Your imaginary world suck! Its not real enough!”
George R. R. Martin be like
It wouldn't be the first time Mr Z and Tiger had beef back in 2020 on twitter
it seems silly but I think it was just a matter of time Altho this is all fun an all there is a political aspect when you make history
And when you get politics involved there is just shit waiting to happen
@@Walterwhiteskull what did they argue about? Two lines on the map?
“The first alt history war”
This should have totally just been solved in private or through discord
Your point is good
Exactly
Fr
Indeed
Agreed
Meanwhile Whatifalthist:
My political beliefs are beyond your comprehension!
they are beyond his own comprehension he barely makes sense if he's not talking about america
Whatifalthist is like, one of the few guys who we can't have as a part of the community because his ideals are inheritly linked to quashing other people's ideals.
He doesnt even make alternate history anymore. He just spews out his political views and makes posts trying to anger people who dont share his political beliefs.
@@500938fuland when he does make Alt history videos, you will always hear something about a supposed resurgence of the Ottoman Empire returning and destroying the balkans, or something else crazy along those lines.
Honestly all althist tube is like that...
I never thought the Alt History community would have drama since it's just a bunch of people looking at maps and writing down massive paragraphs of fiction but here we are, but genuinely I honestly want the drama to stop
This drama has one word: reddit
It’s had this kind of drama before though, just, a bit ago.
It would be like the Speculative Evolution community having drama
or the Imaginary Maps subreddit getting drama
@@zhcultivator nah this sub bans anyone 1% rightwinger
Huge respect for you for this video and for you acting in a neutral way, not attacking neither “”side””.
False balance
100% agree, we are a very niche community and new creators bring different flavors. I watch all of them, enjoy all of them. Greetings from 🇨🇴
Well said!
If we had something like the UN where for alt history youtuber where the big ones must attend, we could stop conflicts like very easiliy. If you don't like what someone is doing, just go here and discuss it with the reast of youtubers instead of atacking his side and discussing it with your friends.
honestly i think possible history genuinley thought this map was mister z's map and was just being playfully rude to his freind. it takes a bit of logic to tell you that josh sullivan is overeacting a ton
I agree he shouldn’t have called out other RUclipsrs but this wasn’t a private chat withe his friends it was online
The discord messages are rude but it’s not the end of the world since it’s more or less private and most people won’t see it but publicly shiting on some ones work withe out even trying to understand it is just rude
You spelt friend wrong.
@@dyolohI both agree and disagree. What PH did was immature at best, but Josh went all in against PH when he didn't have to, it's like if someone threw a rock at you and then you grab a gun
can you explain what is happening? I don't really understand anything rn.
I kinda agree, but they arent friends, PH has said really bad things about both Josh and Z, supposedly for a very long time even
The Z is a nazi thing came from him making a video where he argued for American ethnostates or something, it was such a long time ago now I only remember it because it was the first time I had ever heard the concept lol
In fairness he’s also had a history of… questionable comments up until recently. (Looking at the What if America Stayed Great vid) Then again I have personally grievances given he personally called me “Fredda’s mindless bot army” or something along those lines for a comment I made about some issues I had with his approach to alt history and interpretation of historical actors & demographics from the perspective of someone who has academic and work expertise in political economy, so I’m not one to sling mud here. Also just as a black second-gen American I’m inherently suspicious of anyone who talks about how much better things were before desegregation and the 1962 end of immigration quotas.
@@zandaroos553Monsieur Z is a Catholic Italian-American, he really shouldn’t be going there if he knew his own history.
Surprisingly, Z’s/Dean’s viewers even though they lean conservative will check him on his bs like when a lot people pointed out as a Catholic Italian-American, maybe he shouldn’t be making nativist arguments.
I’ve been with Josh since 1.4k. I knew his biases, and didn’t care since he made cool stuff. I am also a long time sub of PH, and I enjoyed that too. As soon as I saw that thumbnail, I knew Josh really stepped in it.
Plus, I’m still holding out hope that the many alt historians of RUclips can pull their support together for an epic project. Like a movie or tv show for the fans. Think about what we could accomplish if we didn’t tear each other down for petty reasons. Then precede to enflame the situation by causing a split in the fandom.
I dont understand how you could support josh tbh, i occasionally watch cody, so im in no way in tune with alt history, never heard of josh or PH prior to this, decided to watch *some* videos of each.
Josh takes himself as a historian. way to serious for a subgenre of Fiction. newsflash, Althistory can be classified as Shitposts.
PH may be a bad person, with bad takes etc, but he doesnt take himself serious with the Alt-history content. so.. just based on that, i‘d take ph‘s side..
josh needs to do better.
@@imbored667 IDK brodie from what ive seen PH just constantly shits on mr. Z for being right wing (???) idk his real reason it just like suddenly started. I watch both of them and i honestly like both of their content, its just that PH seems to be an asshole for no other reason. Josh might of been ranting on some of the parts but honestly id be mad too if (without any imput from me or my friends) a person started shitting on everything my friend did and praying on his downfall.
@@balticbvll2987
This makes PH sound super based NGL
@@supereero9 sure brah, whatever floats your boat
The super unrealistic stuff Possible History does is IMO, his best content. It's just fiction anyway, and I think what makes Possible History different is that he focusses on storytelling over realism. In that zombie one, it's more about the way Stalin abandons his own ideology in persuit of supreme magical power and world domination, and the Tito Rome one is just really funny.
It’s pretty entertaining
We need PEACE, JUSTICE, and UNITY in this community!
I watch both sides lmao, even if they’re both right or left wing than I am.
Same tbh
Yeah only one I don't watch is whatifalthist because he's basically gone off the deep end.
lol yeah exactly
@@mappingshaman5280he’s definitely not gone off the deep end politically but his videos are boring and just politics. He’s not really a big mapper
@@chef4025 hes the biggest mapper
"I hope someday i get as big that Fredda does a critic to my history" Hahahaha
“Eeeerrr, this silly (dangerous?!) fool doesn’t seem to understand that the Marxist view of history is the correct interpretation of history as a matter of facts ddrrr.” - Freda
@@robertortiz-wilson1588100% accurate
Idk what it is about possible history, but he's like the only channel I don't find boring, I click one video and then I'm binge watching another 2 while other channels kind of lose me at the intro
It's because he visualizes things, which is surprisingly new in the realm of alternate history
@@ilovecakecanihaveapiece oh man i remember from 3-5 years ago when the countryballs videos about alt history and paint maps. Is like the same. I could argue in favor of ph than he talks in the introduccion lees than others maybe
I really like this take, but about how Josh got offended that PH said he only got where he is through Mr. Z, and then saying PH only got where he was through cody and tigerstar, I think what he was trying to say was that PH was being a little hypocritical because he COULD (and did) say the same about him. Hope this clears that up, and doesn't make it more complicated.
While yes, both are true, there is a difference between PH's experience and Josh's experience. While both PH and Josh did arguably get to where they are today due to having much larger channels behind them, PH as far as I can tell would've gotten there anyway, and just used the interactions with larger channels to make new, better, sometimes even relatively innovative content, whereas Josh doesn't seem to have very much success on his own, and seems to use colabs, etc as a crutch with which to prop up his channel's numbers. I hope this viewpoint creates reasonable, productive discussion
@jonahmsl8612 You're not wrong, I stumbled across PH by mistake, and got Josh because of Mr Z
I remember finding possible history, videntis and rewriting history because their videos got recommended. Josh I noticed there were like 4 josh videos on z's channel
@@mappingshaman5280 my point exactly
@@jonahmsl I mean thats technically true, but does that discredit all of the work he put in afterwards?
was that dutch rising water joke bad? yes.
did i chuckle at it? also yes.
Bro thinks he’s Switzerland (I’m only joking around)
Ok I disagree that there is NO logic to history, but ye I agree a lot of history is determined by wildcard factors
I never expected a post-modernist Videntis.
Yeah like the American revolution had its basis in England's abuse of their power over the colonies, and the revolution succeeded because they had Washington, the French helped them, their indipendence didn't come out of left field.
There are obviously factors that can come out of nowhere like for example climate change maybe lead the sea people to raid and maybe that lead to the collapse of the bronze age (or the collapse brought the sea people to raid) and that changed the middle east forever, so I can't say history is completely devoid of logic, it's just that sometimes there are many factors and events (some more obscure) that lead to that outcome.
🇨🇭🇻🇦🇨🇭🇻🇦
Thanks For the neutrality😊😊😊😊❤❤❤
🇨🇭🇨🇭🇨🇭🇨🇭🇨🇭 Thanks For this man! You're the Best 😊😊😊😊
🇸🇲
👍🏿🇵🇲🇵🇲🇵🇲🇵🇲🇵🇲🇵🇲🇵🇲🇵🇲🇳🇺🇳🇺🇳🇺🇳🇺🇳🇺🇳🇺
The quickest way to bring people of political divide together is through a common measure. That is objective or rational that is difficult to argue against.
What is that measure? Well, that is something you need to come up with. I believe you, Monsieur and Tigerstar are qualified so long as the three of you work together can come up with some sort of test or procedure you can use to verify what is likely to happen given scenarios that are present and the information that is provided. If not, so long as you are willing to work with me, we will come up with something Videntis. I believe the best means to verify this test is by using a historian or history enthusiast like Metatron. Someone who has dealt with alt-history kind of stuff and is a very pronounce critic of such. So if the three of you or just you and me can come up with someone and Metatron can grant us that green light of approval, I believe the fighting between the alt-historians will come to an end.
Although to be fair, fighting between historians is quite common. I had History professors at Old Dominion University that will get into fisticuffs over citation issues.
If you are interested, please let me know.
PH literally is the soul reason why I got interested in history and I have learned so much about geography, and many little things about certain points in history. He makes history fun and educational which is very impressive.
The problem I have with alternate history is how everyone tries to be realistic and instead of committing to a scenario brushes off many things as "butterfly effect which makes things unpredictable". My favorite althist author on RUclips is Ripped Lincoln who doesn't shy away from naming characters that were born in the alternate timeline. His Manzikert series is a prime example of how to balance some realism and description of the historical period with creative freedom and engaging storytelling.
I had no idea that any of this was going down but um… best of luck and well-being to all alternate history creators out there. I sincerely appreciate and enjoy the work that you all put out here and dedicate parts of your lives to. I hope the conflict can be resolved, whatever it is, and that social feelings amongst us might be returned. Thank you, be well
Alternate History RUclips beef, bound to happen but sad to see. The more different people do content, the more the odds go up for drama. Hopefully everyone resolves stuff and goes back to making excellent videos for our collective community
Very well spoken video. I absolutely love the mapping community, whether it's historical content, alt-historical content, or downright fictional/sci-fi content. I've loved mapping communities since I was a child and it sucks seeing disputes, drama, and conflict happen between these communities - honestly that goes for any community I am apart of. I really hope everyone can just make up a leave it be. We all have an interest in the same things, there isn't a reason we should be conflicting.
This may be the last peace attempt, the tension has been somewhat there for a while sadly and this wonderful and diverse community needs to band together not split apart
Heres the thing for people saying no politics in history. History is extremely political by default you cant ignore the politics when making alt history projects as some things just dont work because of the politics keen example being the silver legion of america itd be very hard for that to have actually happend.
@cubefreak123 cept when that criticism falls down to name calling and phobic slinging those aren't arguments. No shade at you more for the other guys screaming Nazi at everything
@@damiangaming5696I mean it depends. If someone is consistently spouting racist shit you call them a racist. If someone consistently says communist things you call them a commie. It’s not baseless name calling if it’s true.
Someone said it in Josh’s video, but we officially have Alternate History Tuber Beef before GTA6.
Idk what happened, who knows truly what did other than Josh and the other’s involved? But this is definitely something that could’ve been resolved in private. Certain things sound a bit more baby-ish when publicly said rather than privately.
Mister Z had once a video "What if america stayed great" and in the comments he said "America was way safer and better for everyone when the white man had dominance over it, (talking about segregation)". This is way many say he is far right (which he is). Please respond to this comment if possible. Love your videos
also just bc someones nice to you doesnt make them less of a racist
@@mah9582 Hello I'm racist
DUDE I THINK I REMEMBER THAT LMAO
@@rangar6853hello rasict I'm rafay
@@mah9582 What’s bad about racism?
No one can top the pariah that is whatifalthist
Oh boy, this is a thing now. I wish the alternate history community could be chill
The Z Tigerstar beef started when Z supposed call tigerstar a gay furry and then he called Z a nazi
Are you fr? That's gotta be cap
@@damiangaming5696 there's a video on RUclips about it don't remember the name tbo
@@Gmanhenejen lol
It was the opposite. They had a debate about death penalty and then eventually it devolved into turd flinging by Tigerstar and then Z called him a gay furry.
Tigerstar started it by calling Z a nazi lol
Can't wait for a video to be made about the history of this topic in the future
'the times when alt hist youtubers beefed over political leniencies and other stuff'
to paraphase potenial history's video in his "germany could not win world war 2", "its make for good how4 games but when you think about serious you go on assumption onto assumption until you are basically writing fan fiction."
I think they laughed at the map because it looked like the Catholic countries we’re 1 nation rather than 1 alliance
yeah he made fun of that but that’s the criticisms he had PH doesn’t put effort into it he didn’t bother to watch a video that he was gonna make fun of because it’s not realistic and that’s another reason he was complaining he dose barely any althistory on his own so why shit on other althist for being unrealistic when you almost never try to make realistic althist
If I’m correct, they were looking at photos of alt history maps as a community, so of course he’s not going to watch a video for context because it’s lighthearted community stuff not genuine criticism of the alt history the map is based in.
WE GOT ALT HIST MAPPERS BEEFING BEFORE GTA VI 😭😭
I mean I stopped watching Z about two years ago probably because of his political views and how they impact his alt history. I forget the one guys name who talks about ‘cultural battles’ and about ‘cycles of history’ which is a crackpot alt history youtuber. I’m fine being like both sides are fine or whatever, but sometimes you have to look at the impact these people have on others views of history and maybe they should be criticized for how their content impacts people who watch it.
That is a terrible opinion given these circumstances, as neither side is remotely close to scrutinisation worthy extremes in terms of political statements, especially when compared to other parts of the internet.
All that would do is add a viewer run authoritarian problem where certain conversations can’t be had. Which would be a tragedy, it would end up with questions such as “where on the blessed to evil scale does colonialism sit? and all the layers to it from all perspectives though history and how it has genuinely affected development for better and worse across the world” an example I chose since it’s a big part of history that is interesting, very layered with a seriously mixed bag of results and actions, but would absolutely be off the table if we start punishing people when a portion of the community doesn't like whatever the opinion or worse, general topic is.
Restricting political expression should be reserved for when you start pinning the blame on a certain people based on their genetics or some other un changeable train that has no real bases and is objectively just there to produce hate.
Basically, I think restricting the accepted level of political expression too much just alienates plenty of perfectly fine people with the bad ones which can give easy recruits as they feel unwelcome in the alternatives, it wipes out important and/or though provoking discussions that can give us a much better understanding of history and the human perspective from more sides, and it adds an artificial strictness that would ruin the genuine freedom of expression that gives this broader community its sense of many personalities and good debates.
Yeah, I had to get RUclips to stop recommending Z and Whatifalthist to me because of the above and the dogwhistles.
I love WIAH.
@@T_Kelso
He's a lovable goof
@@atriox7221
Nah, that was a based take
This was a good video to try to help heal the divide in the Alternate History Community. Take care and stay safe. ✌🏻
Thanks, you too!
Honestly the history community has a lot more drama than it might seem at first.
it has been so painfull seeing all this alt history drama on my reccomended so i try not to click on it but i cant so somthinhg a lot more chill is a very nice break from the useless drama
Mapper beef 😭😭😭😭
I liked my own comment 😈😈😈😈😈😈
Well, at least this time there's no way Emperor Tigerstar can blame Monsieur Z for all the drama and cancel any planned collaboration.
Seriously though, the Alt History community should really stop ripping itself apart every single generation.
I'm not a fan of Emperor Tigerstar but that Twitter drama was really petty, I was devastated that the collab between them and AltHistHub was cancelled due to misunderstandings.
9:42 I think the Fascism allegations started when he made a video apparently supporting eugenics (I never watched it) and iirc from when I watched him back in like 2017 he did make some weird scenarios. But I don't remember the specifics.
Yeah I'm 100% guilty of the Mr. Z stuff honestly. Thanks for giving me a reflection of my character and hope we can end this by Christmas :) (or by sooner idk just fitting with the ww1 theme).
Videntis is just out here capitalising on the drama lol
This is a really good video, breaking down the beef and even as a fan of possible history. You are being really fair to both sides
This recent drama has made me hesitant to start making alternate history videos which I planned for this month and year
just ignore reddit & twitter in all shapes and forms, if you generate a fanbase encourage them to be peaceful, and other than that you should be fine
now that i think about it this should be standard for most channels that want to make it big but gets forgotten
Don't let this discourage you!
@@smokeyplane3285 that’s why RUclips is the only social media platform I have 😉
@@TheAlrightyOne thanks for the encouragement!
Tip for making a RUclips channel: Never make a Discord server as they almost always end ugly or at least rife with stupid drama
This was a very respectful and thoughtfully laid out video, there should be a lot more like it imo
Having worked exclusively with the Josh Sullivan/Monsieur Z crowd, I agree generally with the points you made. Josh got a little mad, PH was poking fun and accidentally struck a nerve, and everything could've been handled in DMs and such. Let's hope the Alternate History community decides to be a bit friendlier in the future. Who knows... maybe even Cody and Dean will collab again sometime in the future (unlikely but still).
I’m sorry I’m a bit unfamiliar with their surnames, who is Dean?
@@robindemeyer8960 Monsieur Z
@@robindemeyer8960 PH
@@robindemeyer8960 Monsieur Z
@@robindemeyer8960 Monsieur Z if I believe
Ngl this is a decent response to everything, and I think you cleared everything up
For me it's just another right vs left thing. Just in a different cover. I hope that althist community won't divide or else topic would be dead.
P.S I respect both sides of debate
yeah it is,PH trashed on Z because he is right winger and Josh made some valet criticism but then started trashing all the left wing althist Chanel’s
And as said in the video this comes from an old argument between tigerstar and Z
Wher “the lines where drown” for the left and right side of althist
Are they though? if any thing it's more progressive versus conservative while everyone wants to be viewed as centrist.
@@GreenBlueWalkthrough could be
So... It finally happened, a community after getting some traction it acquired petty drama
The viewers are like Switzerland here, not directly involved, but still benefitting by getting content from both sides.
I would argue making an alternate history is like a very different version of a crossword puzzle or some other sort of logic game. It’s meant to be a fun way to stimulate imagination, problem solving, and general thinking processes while sometimes getting the added benefit of learning more about culture, politics, and economics. It should be a gateway into further study of the past. For example, Kaiserreich is an excellent alternate history scenario that’s both deeply interesting in its own environment while also providing context that encourages people to learn more about the people behind the what ifs. When I played Kaiserreich myself I was immensely interested in Huey Long, a southern American whose name I had never heard despite being southern myself. I checked out a lot of the hidden information the mods put in random places and eventually branched out into learning more about him from RUclips videos, then books and museums, and I’m even writing a paper on him now. That is the sort of growth that alternate history can and should encourage, the true beauty behind what seems silly at face value. Alternate history is a field I cherish and I hate to see the creators behind it tearing themselves apart over petty nonsense while ignoring the spirit of the exercise.
The only truly serious AltHistory serie that i've read was "The Footprint of Mussolini" which had an astounding amount of detail and research put into it.
The one with 100 or so views? I’ll check it out if that’s the one
Yessss the best alt history out there
12:24
Bro really just said go touch grass
I was about to say 😂
This whole argument is dumb. Josh went from ‘Possible History is insulted my map’ to political left v right. Just because I’m a socialist doesn’t mean I can’t like right wing alt history, and the same can go for right-wing people liking left-wing alt history. We both should enjoy it and find it informative, if not about actual facts then about how the other political spectrum reacts to us. Except for literal Nazis and Stalinists and any other purge-supporting maniacs, this community is open for you.
EXACTLY. I’m politically aligned with z for the most part, more right leaning then him in several regards I’d say which isn’t hard as this whole thing is mostly just exaggerating each sides true position in politics. I love watching more left leaning alt his videos if they’re a good video, you said it perfectly, unless the political view is so far in either direction you’re at nazi and Marxist levels, the video has full potential to be wonderfull.
It’s sad that politics has polarised this community the way we are seeing.
I stopped watch 3 of these channels because they decided to bring in their political quips and bash those who don't agree with them.
@@GreenBlueWalkthrough Whcih channels may I inquire
Yea I think bringing politics into this was stupid and just further divides the community
I need help finding my political spectrum. I’m for Hamiltonian Presidential Monarchy, Robert A Heinlein’s Starship Troopers novel version earned voting rights and right to run for office , Localism and Regionalism, Distribtism, Authoritative Minarchy so Powers that are constitutionally allowed are absolute and then everything else is left alone. Those In higher positions of authority receive harsher punishments for committing crimes, Prison Reform where its Punitive and Rehabilitative but once your sentence, parole, probation is completed you are no longer have barriers and have your constitutional rights back. So I basically said fuck the spectrum
"Omg! someone called my map funny and ridiculous!!! Obviously they don't know anything about history and treat history as something non-educational!!! I can't believe they would make videos of obviously fake bizaree scenarios!! Oh hi Mr Z! My good friend! How's the "What if Austria Hungary was made out of Chocolate video!"
How's that Possible History D taste? Remember: RUclipsrs aren't your friends mate
Hey there, you're right, and probably the way most of the community should be thinking. Let's build each other up, rather then tearing each other down. I love how neutral you are. Keep up the good work!!❤❤❤
Yeah I agree
Interestingly, on the Periphery of this conflict in the Alternate History Community lies some lesser-known Alt History RUclips channels that I wish would get more support such as ; What Why How, Planet AltHistory, History's Influence, Rewriting History, The Alternate Historian, ScholaroftheWorld, Neatling, Porphyrios History, The What if Multiverse of History, Alternative History Penguin, The Alternate Atlas and that Annoying American.
And then someone from either PH or Josh's community is gonna do a Gavrilo Princip and start a War in the Alt History fandom lol
How do you recommend this person get beloved by alternative history version of Serbia
Yo Videntis Congrats Man! I love it that your not taking sides and trying to calm down the whole situation. I also think its not worth it for alternate history channels to fight about sth. Love your vids and personality Videntis ❤
Appreciate it!
3:54 unless its monsieur Z, who supports jim crow laws
leftists rely off of out of context statements to make people look bad because they can neither win debates nor fist fights
As somebody who used to watch PH videos, him having a big fan base definitely does not equate to the topic not mattering
Good video. It’s important to stop this infighting and just make alt history videos.
Honestly, I used to follow Mister Z but he lost me when he started to get political. Painting the party opposed to his as conspirators trying insidiously to subvert Americans freedom was going a few stretches too far for me. I don't know if that's how he intended to make some of his videos sound but that's certainly how they sounded (especially the ones on a potential second american civil war).
To be clear, I am not American and don't align with the democrats nor the republicans. I don't follow the other alternate history channels mentioned in this video either (except AlternateHistoryHub) so I really don't care about who said what. I just feel like Mister Z gave the same vibes of tribalism Videntis is rightfully cautioning us against and I'm not about that.
He's actually right about his political opponents trying to subvert america. In fact, they openly admit this is exactly what they want to do. It's not his opinion, it is quite literally their party platform, which they will openly share at any given opportunity
You see, a lot of people on the right here that Z is persecuted because he's a right-winger and think 'Oh, he's a Conservative/Libertarian/Paleocon/Republican like me' when he's ideologically further right than any of those. I won't slur him as a Nazi as I don't think he's an outright Nazi, I do think he does have a lot of far-right sympathies with his more questionable views on race relations and American Nationalism which doesn't just bleed into his content but sometimes outright advocates for it with his more political videos.
@@bruhicusmomentus3060 Considering the state the country is in it's a natural reaction. Race relations are at an an all time low and it's largely due to massive, inreconcilable cultural differences.
Regardless of that, I would rather watch content from someone who may be biased but is honest about his/her beliefs than someone who clearly is biased but acts like they are impartial.
This is the difference I have noticed between right and left wing creators
Right wingers will openly state every belief they have and explain in precise detali the reasoning behind all of them, where as Left wingers, no matter how far left they are, will always pretend to be much more neutral and unbiased than they actually are
He's now full political and now separated his alt history under a new channel called USofZ
Mad respect bro I really love to hear this. This is what we need more of in the worlds as a whole. I just found your channel and will sub. The joke was good too, it made me laugh it was just perfectly dry.
I would like to have the luxury of being able to chill. These people have been attacking me and my friends for years, and calling us all sorts of horrid names. If alternate history was never serious, why did he attack my scenario? I don’t want to fight, but I didn’t start this. It was a long time coming.
Bruh someone said your map was silly out of context and now you’re crying about it, chill your balls Josh
@@SouthDakotaFacts look, I agree it doesn't matter, but "chill out, it dont matter" isn't an argument, clearly it matters to him so you have to provide actual reasoning to make any sort of difference
Respond to PHs comment then. Or are you looking for channels backing you for validation?
Ok I was just told by someone in the comment section that I needed to provide reasoning for why I think you need to chill your tits, so that’s what I’m gonna do.
Josh, I think you responded excessively and unreasonably to a matter which you could have handled better. Firstly, I think you should have just reached out to him in private rather than just trying to cancel him. Secondly, he wasn’t laughing at you or trying to make fun of your map, he just made a lighthearted comment on your map. He knows Alt Hist maps are goofy. He himself makes some of the most memed maps ever. So when you see Europe divided into two colors that make it seem like the entirety of catholic europe United, he wasn’t criticizing your scenario, he just thought it looked odd. Thirdly, I don’t think not being credited is something to fuss over because IT WAS ON MZs channel. If you were on his channel as a guest, it wouldn’t be crazy to assume Mr z might have drawn the map and you did the talking. Thirdly, you criticizing his legitimacy is so unbelievably stupid. You just cherry-picked his meme videos and said “oh, PH does meme videos, so he can’t criticize me” like your some scholarly source on ALTERNATE FUCKING HISTORY. Not a single but of alternate history should be taken seriously, it’s fiction buddy. If anything, you’re the one taking it too seriously. Now, fourthly, I do think some of what PH said about you and Mr Z was uncalled for, but like I said, you should have addressed him privately, or at the very minimum, not take personal jabs at his channel.
Overall, I think only a few of your criticisms were legit, and the way you went about talking about them was VERY unprofessional.
You buddy buddy with Nazi Z
I ain't calling you names I'm telling the truth
💀goofy ahhh youtube historian drama over maps
Just off the bat, I like everyone involved in this aside from wiah and fredda, they just never cam up on my radar. I think Josh had a reasonable complaint at the start, and I have no idea what sort of behind the scenes conversations were had, if any. But the rest of the video went in a direction that was uncalled for. I'm not from the US but mr Z doesn't seem that bad, just further right than me. PH does seem like he needs to be brought down back down to earth though from the looks of it.
PH is based
I just wish we had more* Southeast Asian, South American and African Alternate History content
What If Gajahmada never went missing
@@username-oz6gz good scenario
Why can't we be friends
why can't we be friends
With all due respect I couldn’t disagree with your assessment of Z more. He’s made some extremely suspicious statements like segregation being ok for African Americans as long as they “played by the rules” along with alot of other stuff that I can’t remember at the moment.
Which video?
@@Astro_Mickey it’s been unlisted now. It was called what if America stayed great.
I need more context
Mr Z: german empire
Josh sullivian history: austria hungary
Whatifalthist: ottoman empire
Asian pie (or whateve his name is): bulgaria
Althistoryhub: uk
Tigerstar: france
Possible history: serbia
Where's Videntis and Fredda?
@@zhcultivator videntis: Switzerland
Fredda: rsfsr
Team far-right conspiracy theorists vs team reasonable moderates? I'm down
@@TheEmperorYTPthe funny segregation guy and his gang vs everyone else?? lmao this seems fun
LET'S GO FAR-RIGHT CONSPIRACY THEORISTS!!! WOOO!!!@@TheEmperorYTP
hello videntis i want to tell you that i have always loved geography. amd i am in a rough spot right now with my uncle and grandmother both passing away, and your videos really help me focus my mind on some of my interests. :)
Has Videntis heard of the RUclipsr "Genuine"? He made a parody of a few alternate history RUclipsrs like WIAH and Mr Z.
Bro I love that around 12:30 you basically “Go touch grass” lol!
Idc I want my Roman Empire copium for the week give me more
Finally, someone who took the middle ground and called out the bs on both sides. THANK YOU FOR BEING A DECENT PERSON
17:06 nice thought but uh, horrible in practice
i'll not hear out right wing people, especially when they get to the part about whether i deserve human rights or not :3
Ignore social politics economics has actual truth and you can reason with someone in it if you aren't debating some wannabe 12y Reagan fan
Historians beefing with eachother over fictional realities to me is weird. It hurts the whole community, and as long as your argument/scenario has reasonable evidence and an interesting storyline, then it makes for good content. Politics should not be a part of these and an unbiased approach is always best.
theres no such thing as an unbiased point of view, if someone tells you they're unbiased they're lying also you cant separate politics from history
No no it is quite funny
@@SamFromItalia *too much funny, perfect*
@@crimsonflood1643yeah valid
None of these guys are historians (at least as far I know) . That's a insult to people who spend years to get there diplomas. All these alt history guys are just redditors who think they are political geniuses, because they made "WhAt If GeRmAnY wOn Ww1?????" video or play paradox games.
i think ALT-history doesnt have to be ultra realistic, i want it to be fun, i WANT small countries going against all odds and winning a BIG war with big boy countries, i dont want it to be boring ultra realistic.
You'd probably like "The Mouse That Roared" by Leonard Wibberley.
I couldn't agree more on what you said on the Alternate History community. Such a small and niche community shouldn't tear itself apart, it is best if it stays united, so that it can thrive and grow.
To sum it all up, history as we know it took the completely realistic path, and in some areas we came close to a divergent path to our timeline, example Germany ACTUALLY just NEARLY, NEEEARLY won the First World War, the French were close to breaking and when America was brought in it restored morale for the French, so yes, there was an EXTREMELY close possibility to see a Kaiser Reich
Not that close when their soldiers are starving before they even break the line
I am just saying as person who been following the Althis Community for a while and I thinks best if these two communities don't interact with interact with each other. PH should never have snarked at Josh's map if he did not know anything about it, and Josh shouldn't have made his video. If we can't civil about it, just let there be two communities instead of one because that how already is.
I can't lie I just wanna meme about this rivalry through WW1 analogies and jokes. Monsieur Z's side seems like the Central Powers. AHB can be France, Videntis as Greece, and I'll have to think of the rest.
Why am I Greece? I’m the Vatican 🇻🇦😂
@Videntis.History nah bro your the Swiss
@@Videntis.History Lol I just wanted to put you as a mostly neutral power with some semblance of strength and importance
WIAH is the ottoman empire.
I’ve been hearing hoi4 music during this whole controversy. Hype to see how it plays out.
Civil war arc is crazy
Man, even the map people are going to controversy.
What's next?
>history
>has politics
gee
Good video, i am subbed to all people involved and would just like the whole drama to be over :D
Love your content man! Suggestion: What if harold goodwinson defeated william of normandy?
Good suggestion, I wonder if without a 100 years war France would be stronger as northern France wouldn’t have been devasted by the war
There is a video out there just chronicling the argument between tigerstar and Z
Unrelated to the drama but one thing Ive always loved about Possible History is that he experiments and tries new things with the alternate history genre.
Very good response. Friendly and cordial.
"Why cant we all just be friends?"
Definitely the matching pfp right here
@@association3cm675 I just want to be happy
@@McStinkersonIII Hey, cheers to that.
One word, politics.
@@Blackandwhitecat-to5ll No solving it so why worry about it
I don’t see alt-history stuff as always educational it’s more just entertainment factor.
Isn’t “junk food” what entertainment kinda is? I mean his content is fun, that’s the point.
{For context i am left leaning politically so, u know bias]
Honestly i couldnt care less about the personal non political drama like its weird ww1 esque nobody really is on the good side thing even if im leaning on Possible historys side
But id like to point out the political aspect a bit more. honestly the worst part about Josh Sullivans video is that while defending Monsiieur Z {Which while i absolutely despise cause of his massive bias i could get defending} but also seems to subtly be defending whatifalthist which has been denounced by most althistory channels out there for having some reactionary takes.
The whole thing just seems really hypocritical to me as while he is angry about bias he seems to be defending people who are atleast in my opinion more biased and sometimes straight up hateful.
16:25 Also i think all sides would agree fascists are not in fact welcome in the community.
But at the end of the day to quote althistory hubs comment on Joshes video: "It was a funny map"
The f word is as much an idea as comminisum. 🥱 🤷♂️
Dont see a need for a special exclusion.
@@DrMosseeay I think communism/socialism is dumb but unlike fascism they arent inherently hateful while yes the wast majority of communist countries we're but unlike fascism their believers usually arent
And even if you dont believe all that sure lets exclude communism as well, if it means excluding fascists.
@@Pepagg8 eh- yea- I can see it.
It’s not just the reactionary takes, it’s using academically-bankrupt theories for assessing history and demanding it confirm with one’s ideology. WIAH pushes theories into his videos that play to a certain base, to phrase it one way.
I’m also generally left-leaning but I enjoy videos from a variety of folks - like I don’t always agree with Mr Beat’s views but I appreciate him, his energy, his commitment to education and understanding, and that we both are coming in accepting a common understanding of history. We allow our views to be molded by what we learn, not the other way around - and I can’t help when watching videos from folks like WIAH or Z but to have the feeling that they’re trying to mold history to match their ideology.
Something I really enjoy about PH is that in his scenarios or these group RPs, he tries to stress what’s logical and could have happened, not playing out personal dream scenarios or going out-of-character. I think that’s something more althist folks should consider with their videos.
So, WIAH is a reactionary you say (which isn't being a fascist, btw) and he should be excluded from the alt history community where we have open communists around? Don't get me wrong, pushing your politics on a hobby is a low move, but him having "takes" is not enough to ostracize someone from the hobby. Like, in WH40K, we have to deal with literally all type of political fauna, and that's ok.
Cant find the screenshot but Possible History has stated that he was an anarchist before the 6th of September