The Biggest Misconception In Pokémon
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 26 дек 2023
- In this video, I explain why Ash Greninja isn't retconned and why it's a common misconception within the pokemon community
#pokemon
Music used in this video:
Pokemon XY Power Plant
Undertale OST (Toby Fox)
Buisness Email: bryantantunez5@gmail.com
PLEASE READ: a lot of you guys have tons of questions so let me answer them here, you guys have great arguments as to why ash greninja isn't or is canon, but as for the ones that try and disprove ash greninja's canonicity, they are incredibly flawed, let me explain
1. As for the games, why in the actual hell would they have ash greninja in the games 💀, that is incredibly stupid to add the form in a game litterally centered around a entirely different gimmick, especially since the form was added around a time when megas were still in the games, the logic behind ash greninja not being in scarlet and violet is like saying ultra necrozma doesn't exist in it either purely cause you Don't get the z move and the Solarizer key item, when they obviously wouldn't add it because the game is using a new gimmick
2. As for the anime, a single one frame flashback can't equate to something being retconned, in most cases when something is being retconned the company will actively go out of their way to state it. (Like every other company, they would be posting it on social media) They have also done something similar in the past when they confirmed that M20 was a alternate continuity or they would make a very specific plot point to contradict ash greninjas existence.
Let me ask you guys a question, if a single frame of a pokemon can retconned ash greninja then does that mean that when ash got excited about the bird trio it retconned the entire battle frontier? - or when in Xy ash legit didn't know what a poacher, does that retconned team plasma since ash Cleary knew poaching from B&W? - obviously not 💀 so why is it that when one single frame doesn't show the form, we all go ballistic and say retconned?
Also if something is retconned, they would be going out of their way to suppress its existence, not showing things like "remember that time in xyz where you can clearly see something that was retconned by us"
If you guys have more to say then we can discuss more on discord (Pokeeee)
I'll bite. They are very reasonable arguments, and to dismiss this just because it doesn't align with your own narrative is telling.
1. Ash-Greninja in the games was added in SM, not XY. He wasn't classified as a mega because he wasn't one. They keep forms like Hoopa Unbound, even make new forms like Palafin. Why keep Hoopa Unbound? Heck, Palafin's hero form activates when it switches out. The form activates on ability. So did Greninja's form. Yet they removed a form that activated on ability, but in the same gen added one.
And yes, Ultra Necrozma also doesn't exist anymore because there are no z-moves. Eternatus can't use Eternabeam anymore. But you want to know the differences between those and Greninja? They relied on regional gimmicks. Ash Greninja is NOT a mega, please stop thinking this. It wasn't written as one in XYZ, it was unique to Ash only, think Goku getting a unique form to himself. Ash is the protagonist, and they wanted to do something different rather than just giving him a mega. Hence, the Bond Phenomenon. In the games, the form activates when you KO a Pokemon. The ability is literally called "Battle Bond" after BOND Phenomenon, something unique TO Greninja. It is a form just like Palafin's hero form, or Wishiwashi's form. Those forms should also be removed following yours and GF's logic, but they aren't, they specifically removed Greninja's. Why? They had no reason to remove it whatsoever.
2. Yes, it does. This isn't a single frame either. This was multiple flashbacks with the EXACT same framing it was in XYZ, almost 1 to 1, so they were clearly looking at old frames of XYZ that DID have Ash Greninja, and purposefully omitted them out when it was adapted for Journey's artstyle. This was a FULL episode about Greninja and going back to see him. He SHOULD be in his Ash Greninja form for these flashbacks because one, the flashbacks are set DURING XYZ, not after, and two, are set during two PIVOTAL moments of Ash Greninja that Ash remembers, the release and the Kalos League finals. In the same series they ham up Greninja being "mysterious" in the league itself! because he looks unique from other Greninja! They had never said this about Pikachu or other mons like Infernape with Blaze. He was released BECAUSE the form was destined to save Kalos, and help Zygarde clear the vines that appeared all across Kalos as a result of Lysandre's actions. And three, re-using animation from XYZ does not mean they didn't retcon it. It is literally re-used animation. The entire opening is more or less reused animation, showing key moments during the anime throughout it's entirety. Of course you'd show Ash Greninja for Kalos. Just like they showed Infernape vs Electivire for DP. Both are crucial to their own series of origin. In the NEW animation, NOT re-used, there's a difference you know, that they did, it is nowhere to be seen. This is such a bad faith argument honestly, and people like you should stop saying this and just admit it's a retcon, or just say outright you don't like the form like many with this argument have said in the past. That's really what you want to say.
TV Tropes even lists this AS a retcon.. which it is.
On another note, Journeys is written horribly, and even animated horribly at times too. The Cynthia fight is so embarrassing. Just look at the fight between Togekiss and Lucario. They didn't even animate Diantha's fight with Leon. Champion mons should be nigh unstoppable, and require multiple mons to take down at the very least, if not the entire team. Cynthia swept the floor with Flint and later Caitlin in BW. Flint only took out TWO of her mons at the end of DP. She has SIX. Both top Elite 4 members. At this point Ash was lucky to even fight an Elite 4 member. Flint destroyed Ash's Infernape with his own. He couldn't stand against Bertha or Agatha. Her Garchomp is naturally powerful, not artificially powerful like Leon's Charizard. Lucario (whom hatched from an egg) should NOT be on the same power level as this. You know who could have been? His other aces like Infernape and Greninja. He was catching fully evolved mons he did not deserve like Dragonite and Gengar when literally before he had a Haunter Sabrina could have gave to him (she is absent in Journeys by the way)
Ever since the writers lied to us and made Ash lose when everything in the season suggested otherwise (the Furfrou trainer at the beginning of the League, constant mention of him straight up intending to win, in BW he promises his own mother he'll win the league there), they have been deathly afraid of making Ash lose. In the Tomiyasu era he never loses a league, let alone an important battle. He loses ONCE in Journeys, and that was with Bea. He should still be losing constantly against trainers like Steven that are on a completely different power level to him. Alain's Zard X stood no chance against Siebold, an Elite 4 member. Paul stood no chance against Brandon or Cynthia. Elite 4 and champions are in a league of their own. Ash's new mons aren't even comparable and again were artifically bumped up in the powerscaling because.. reasons.
3. No, because that's completely different. He knows what an Articuno is. He fought one in Battle Frontier. Tomiyasu may not remember, judging by everything else in Journeys that is nothing more than nostalgia bait for older fans, but we do.
4. I'm not joining your Discord, lol
@@Nighterac One thing. If champions are so epic, why are they fodder for ten year old prodigies? Like, Nemona is confirmed to be far stronger than Geeta, and she simply battles for fun. I think that you shouldn’t overhype them when they’re just very strong trainers.
@@jacksonvoet8312 Not overhyping, the anime does that itself with it's champions, even if they don't deserve it at times, just look at what they did with Leon. That's how they're written, both pre JN and during JN. They are written differently from the games.
However prior to JN, champions were on a whole other level compared to league winners. Tobias never beat Cynthia, since she's still the champion in BW. Paul never beat Brandon or Cynthia. Virgil never beat Alder. Champions had to be nerfed severely in JN for Ash, otherwise he would be swept by them
Nemona and Geeta being written like that is gen 9. I was talking about everything pre JN, aka pre gen 8. And they're barely in the new anime at all to begin with
@@Nighterac Gen 9 story is awesome. But yeah, that’s fair. I think we’d be less mad if we saw the battle and it had decent fight logic.
@@Nighterac You cooked his ass so bad 😭
I can't see how _anyone_ can hate Ash Greninja, I miss him so much and I'm so happy he wasn't forgotten
He's the goat
The only thing that makes me hate Ash Greninja is the fact that it was included in the core games. It doesn't make any sense on so many levels. And his design is so bad. Look at based Greninja design, I could debate how is one of the best designed Pokémon of the franchise and I'm not a fan of him, I'm more a Chestnaugh guy but I must admit it. Ash Greninja is so lazy, I'm even chocked that GF included him in the gen 7 games
the only people i met that hate ash greninja are people who like chesnaut or delphox better, to which i say thats fair because chesnaut and delphox got pretty much nothing.
@Speculector and that is one of the many reasons why Ash Greninja makes no sense in core games. Why he is the only one with that mechanics? Why the two others starters doesn't have it ? Why creating a gimmick based on changing form in the same generation as Mega Evolution ? And why his design is so bad ?! I'll repeat myself l, but Greninja has a excellent design and Ash Greninja is just pure laziness
@@jo-ri-oh8950he has the best design of all mons
For anyone doubting this cause ash greninja dosent appear in the games anymore i have 2 counterpoints, 1. The logical reason he was removed was to keep with the change of all mega and mega adjacent pokemon being removed, and 2. He literally is in s/v. You can see a picture of ash greninja in nemonas dorm room
Also megas weren't retconnect either, there still acknowledged in later games, for example roaring moon's dex entry mentions how similar it is to mega salamance
Your first point is litterally the entire point, thank you for addressing this cause Clearly people don't get that it would not make sense why a form like ash greninja should exist in a game without megas since it's essentially a mega 😭
whers the picture in nemonas dorm
@Rizzu_Tomioka ok so my apologies, it's not in her dorm it's in her house, the painting is called "the hidden ninja" and is seemingly an abstract painting of ash greninja
Also, it doesn’t really make sense why battle bond would turn greninja into ash greninja in SV. Previously the only battle bond greninja that was in the games was literally Ash’s greninja, which is why it had the Ash greninja form from the anime. But the Battle Bond Greninjas you can obtain in SV are no longer guaranteed to have Ash as the OT, it doesn’t make sense why they would all look like Ash.
no matter if Greninja is canon or not, figuring out why ash is still 10 for 25 years is harder
For real 😭
It's a common thing in anime series that is made for kids, just look at Doraemon
@@Seivilonthere’s a canon answer
The general director of the anime kunihiko iyama already gave us a canon answer why ash doesn’t age
He says “I viewed the anime as a story that captured the feel of a day of summer vacation in one’s childhood of children venturing on a trip into the unknown exploring a world without parents alongside their friends and others who they engage along the way”
“In the setting of the animation the main character ash is forever ten years old and the background season is forever early summer”
“Sometimes it gets cold in the mountains or it could be hot, those changes happen by traveling”
“Fundamentally it is forever early summer and he is forever ten years old and on top of that a day of summer vacation repeats perpetually”
“This is what I hoped to create”
“ a view of the world that would be ideal for children (addlibbed by me: and adults young at heart)”
@@Pokiiii62 The general director of the anime kunihiko iyama already gave us a canon answer why ash doesn’t age
He says “I viewed the anime as a story that captured the feel of a day of summer vacation in one’s childhood of children venturing on a trip into the unknown exploring a world without parents alongside their friends and others who they engage along the way”
“In the setting of the animation the main character ash is forever ten years old and the background season is forever early summer”
“Sometimes it gets cold in the mountains or it could be hot, those changes happen by traveling”
“Fundamentally it is forever early summer and he is forever ten years old and on top of that a day of summer vacation repeats perpetually”
“This is what I hoped to create”
“ a view of the world that would be ideal for children (addlibbed by me: and adults young at heart)”
The general director of the anime kunihiko iyama already gave us a canon answer why ash doesn’t age
He says “I viewed the anime as a story that captured the feel of a day of summer vacation in one’s childhood of children venturing on a trip into the unknown exploring a world without parents alongside their friends and others who they engage along the way”
“In the setting of the animation the main character ash is forever ten years old and the background season is forever early summer”
“Sometimes it gets cold in the mountains or it could be hot, those changes happen by traveling”
“Fundamentally it is forever early summer and he is forever ten years old and on top of that a day of summer vacation repeats perpetually”
“This is what I hoped to create”
“ a view of the world that would be ideal for children (addlibbed by me: and adults young at heart)”
I just hate how they removed it's form from the kalso finals recap it was so dumb to do and started this whole retcon drama
The reason Ash Greninja wasn't Ash Greninja in journeys was because Ash "bonded" with Lucario and NOT Greninja
Great analysis 👍
@@Pokiiii62 thank you
"not greninja" what do you mean? ash's bond for greninja was still there and we see it in that episode when all 3 of them have their auras synced. and even if it didn't that doesn't make sense because that kind of bond you don't just suddenly lose.
@@AizakkuAdoman he was specifically bonding Lucario which I’m pretty sure he can do one at a time to it’s fullest potential while with Greninja he was just doing some simple ones which he can do at the same time
Heh. You're describing it like Ash is a pokemon and Battle Bond is his unique ability he can activate in certain circumstances. Honestly not dissimilar to how I see it ! I think he does it with most of his pokemon to a certain extent, personally, but there are some that are more receptive. Something about aura.
I think why ash greninja did not physically appear in the journeys episode is cuz ash greninja's design is partially based on the clothes ash is wearing and since he wears different clothes in journeys, they would have had to redesign ash greninja a little bit
probably also cause the episode wasnt focused on the ash greninja form at all and would probably ''confuse'' viewers who havent watched xyz, and it would be too much to explain all of that + shift focus onto lucario in just 1 episode
I'm only praying the Bond phenomenon gets reintroduced in gen 10 possibly as a gimmick or returns for XY remakes or Sun and Moon remakes
I wish that in kalos remake they bring back megas, and give more battle bond form to chesnaught and delphox and bring back ash greninja
It's possible now more than ever @@legendaryboyyash
I think the other kalos starters should have bond phenomenon forms as well
@@tangerinepaint3643 yea
1:49
The events happened, that wasn’t retconned.
The form itself itself was the problem, but in Nemona’s home, it still appears in a painting.
They changed it so you can’t have it while Ash could, but I wouldn’t say they retconned it fully.
Greninja was shown to sense the vines in base form at the end of XY. It’s not an Ash-Greninja specific ability. It’s very easy to go back and say everything that Ash-Greninja has done was always just Greninja with the exception of characters bringing up how Greninja looks similar to Ash when they get in sync or the whole Ninja village and their folklore surrounding the transformation from ages ago.
Which was seemingly retconned as Ash doesn’t bring the form change up to Goh, only mentioning how it felt like they would fight as one. So it’s very easy to never return to the Ninja village and its characters to avoid all ties to the form.
The Pokemon company acknowledging the form has no weight on the canoncity of the form. For marketing reasons they will of course make plushies and figures of one of the main draws to the XY anime. The anime staff is separate to the Pokémon Company’s marketing team.
The opening does recollect Ash’s moments yes, but they’re simply using pre existing footage. They’ve already shown if they were to reanimate those moments Ash-Greninja would just be Greninja.
I don’t know where this whole “Ash-Greninja haters” is coming from. I’m sure there are that exist, but nowhere near the amount of people who are in favor and love Ash-Greninja. Which is where the discourse comes from. The frustration of something that was enjoyed and found memorable by many is now being treated with so much disrespect.
It’s not haters. It’s people worried and looking at the facts.
The games had ABSOLUTELY no reason to remove the form transformation in Scarlet and Violet. If they wanted to nerf the ability and the buff it gives then that’s completely fine, however to completely remove the form was unnecessary with no good reason to happen other than if they wanted to retcon the form’s existence.
As of in the anime’s universe. Ash-Greninja’s fate is looking scary and I hope they realize how stupid and unnecessary of a decision it was to pretend something so unique doesn’t exist.
I understand what your trying to say, to address the game thing, it completely makes sense, first off why would they keep the form in scarlet and violet when the whole gimmick in SV are terras, if they kept ash greninja as a form in the games then that would be completely dumb considering it would be out of place. Remember, ash greninja is like a mega evolution, it would make more sense for the form to be in a videogame surrounded by that specific gimmick, instead of adding something with over a 600 base stat total into a game without any sort of megas/primal forms already existing in the first place
@@Pokiiii62 Ash-Greninja is not a gimmick that’s available to all Pokemon. It did not have a whole game centered around it. It’s a unique ability to him and with its nerfed state in SV it 100% would not take the spotlight of something game changing as Terastalization. So again it has no reason to be removed unless it was deliberately not wanted. Ash-Greninja is like a mega evolution, but it’s not. Zygarde 100% is like a mega evolution, but it’s not. Yet it was still running around in a game that wanted to focus on the Dynamax/Gigantamax phenomenon. Any pokemon that changes form and gains a stat increase is like mega evolution, but they are in fact not. Zacian and Zamazenta continue to run around in their crowned forms AND in a nerfed state, so no excuse for the same to not be done with Greninja who’s form, similar to other form changes in SV only activate when meeting specific conditions. Ash-Greninja’s model and the nerfed version of the ability battle Bond can both exist, but SV only chose one.
There’s just no justifiable reason for its removal and its lack of an appearance in Journeys and It’s very concerning
@kuribohbrother read the pinned comment, and also if you'd like to discuss this further we can have a constructive discussion about it, here's my discord for any further questions, discussing any further in a youtube comment section isn't going to be efficient to get our points across (my discord: Pokeeee
@@Pokiiii62while I was watching this video I was rolling in my grave. Yeah, I love ash greninja, but none of these points are it man. Sure by definition he’s not “retconned” but does that really even matter? They showed him off for a few seconds in the opening.. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were trying to justify never seeing the form again just by doing that alone. Further proved by the fact that they added battle bond in scarlet violet, and then up and changed the ability. Sure, he’s not retconned by definition, but really it’s not being treated any better than a form that _was_ retconned.. be so for real..
Just humbled the youtuber real quick
they should've made a galar anime and then made a spin-off-like little series about the world cup where he uses his best pokemon over the years
You and me both brother 😭
Almost his whole team ended up being Pokemon he caught in Journeys, a choice I don't approve of.
@@endeavor3406 I get why they did that but I don't get why couldn't they just make him use his old pokemon in battles before the finals I am not even talking about the populer ones I am talking about just anyone of them (specifically primape would be very good)
@@yugimuto1639 Like you said they should've made another series for the World Cup
Biggest fumble in the anime history.
They might've removed the Ash-Greninja form in Scarlet and Violet to save it for X and Y remakes which I hope are what 2024's Pokemon Day will announce. To me, Ash-Greninja seems more like a Mega Evolution without the stone's help to connect the Pokemon with its trainer to achieve a greater form. So I think GameFreak just wanted to have SV focus on their gimmick of Terastalizing and save the return of Mega Evolutions for X&Y remakes
6 doesn't come after 4
@@Chris_Elrica lot of people think that legends unova or bw3 will come INSTEAD of a bw/bw2 remake and they'll just go straight to remake x and y (hopefully more like a z version)
I would really like for an x and y remake if they aren't making a "legends kyurem" first
@@Chris_Elric oh yeah the correct order is 1,2,3,1,4
@@angelopalma6785 I mean in all fairness the let's go games both use the same beginning bit for their name
You might as well say 1, 2, 3, 7, 1, 4
Let's be honest, Ash Greninja was an ass pull of a transformation, but it was fucking goated 🔥🔥🔥
Another misconception would be about Mints. The text does tell you that they change only the stats, having no effect on the preferred flavors, wild Pokémon encounters, Pokémon breeds, and even Pokémon like Eleson/Toxel where it evolves based on its Nature and Kemusso/Wurmple where the Nature can be part of its personality value to evolve.
Hang on a minute, if I remember correctly, there was episode in Journeys where Ash returned to Kalos to get his Lucario a Mega Stone in which he reunites with Greninja and the teach about the bond of Mega Evolution etc, etc.
the visual no longer exists, but the power continues to exist
My theory on the reason why in ash recap, it's just the regular greninja because it could be what Ash sees since they are one I don't think he sees the form like everyone else but just regular greninja. Also the kid is only 10 and he already forgot he's died multiple times in the anime so he could have forgotten what ash greninja looked like.
Nice video, it would be cool if the bond phenomenon became a new gen battle gimmick in the future.
Yeah same, I also believe they're just saving it for Gen 6 remakes
@@Pokiiii62 That would be cool, I'm honestly hoping when they do a Gen 6 remake it's this big thing cause I think we all know that there was a lot of stuff planned for x and y that didn't make it in the games so it would be cool if they put all that extra stuff into a x and y remake and just expand a lot more about Kalos especially Zygarde's story in the games and get the people who wrote the story of scarlet and violet for those remakes cause many people think scarlet and violet has one of if not the best story in a Pokemon game so far.
Will say, Ash Greninja may not exist in its actual Battle Bond form, but it's still counted as a separate form since it is not counted towards the Blueberry Academy dex. Not sure if this changes much, but it was something i've noticed while playing the DLC
that’s an interesting way to word that it just isn’t in the dex at all
Another thing to add is that in the Journeys Manga's first chapter, it showed Ash Greninja too.
@@Flarteon The first one.
Where I can read that manga?
(Also it's not in mangadex)
3:18 this is disproven because in xyz ash tells greninja
Just think of me and u will be able to transform
We will always be bonded together no matter the distance
The real reason he wasn’t is because they didn’t wanna take attention away from lucario
Another reason for Ash Greninja still existing is that he appears in Geninja’s final smash in Smash Ultimate. You’d think that if they retconned it they would have the final smash changed in an update (which has been done before with Cloud).
this too. thank you
Well this is definitely a bit of a stretch but I have a bit of a headcannon that all the seasons of Pokémon are retellings of the events with ash from his companion's perspectives. This is why Ash does so many dumb things in B/W, and why he's suddenly much stronger and more competent immediately after in XY, along with his other unexplained changes across the series. Anyways, to cut a long story short I think the reason Ash Greninja wasn't in that screenshot is because this is how Goh perceives the story ash is telling him. Goh never saw the Ash Greninja form, meaning he doesn't realize that it wasn't just a regular Greninja's form.
That doesn't make sense at all. Its not possible that its showing what Goh imagines it looked like as Goh had never seen alain, greninja, Mega CharizardX, the Kalos League, or Ashes Kalos design before. Also if the Pokémon seasons were retelling from the companions pov then how does episodes/moments that only have ash exist? Or what about the episode "Dream a little dream from me.'' When Pikachu & Meowth are stuck in squishy's dream because of darkrai?
Here's my theory i think the pokemon company did that to
1. Cause paldia and galar was just not the region for mega evolution and while bond is not mega it is related to it and introduced in the same region as that and if they have put mega and bond also in the picture not many people would have chose byna/gigantamax and crystalization we saw that with the alola game.
And 2. Was to recreate the hype as we know pokemon legends ZA is set to release in 2025 it is going to focus on zygard and we have seen that there was someone else with the bond Phenomenon before ash in the past and as legends ZA is set in the past it will be a good time to bring back bond evolution too as mega evolution is making its return and this time we'll see both mega and bond at the same time in there own game and region
One another theory I have and it might be dull but I think Ash's Greninja is retaining the power of his form in his base form similar in Dragon Ball Battle of Gods, where when Goku run of the SS God form, he retained the power in both base form & Super Saiyan. So it's safe to assume that Greninja retains his Bond Phenomenon power by holding dear his bond with Ash regardless of the distance which is why he feels more powerful than he was in his base form prior to XYZ.
Great comparison burner, I like your theory
And like Goku with Super Saiyan God later in the series, Greninja can probably (and most deninitely) still transform and gain even more power. He and Ash simply decide not to, since
1. It consumes massive amounts of energy from both of them, can't imagine using that and a Mega at the same time
2. They both feel the damage dealt, so it's a double edged sword
3. Most common situations don't require massive amounts of power so the transformation isn't always needed
4. In the episode he returned it was more so about teaching Lucario and not about flexing his own power
Do you agree?
Thank you so much for making this video, it's so pain full to see that my favorite Pokemon's existence barley exist anymore, but still this video warm my heart,I know the Christmas is over but still this is the best gift 🥰
You don't understand how much this means to me... thank you for the kind words!!
I’m glad it wasn’t retconned just kinda wish we saw more of it maybe it can be its own gimmick in the future mostly because Delphox and chesnaughrt deserve forms too
i dont know if this counts but in pokemon home it shows the Ash-Greninja form in the dex if you import a battle bond greninja
Yuh, just another example on top of many, good observation 👍
As much as I want to believe what your saying, you didn't really acknowledge the flashbacks in Journeys that showed Ash Geninja scenes from the X&Y series without his Ash-Greninja form.
That seems like stronger current canon evidence than a RUclips top 10 archive or an anime opening.
Can I get Battle Bond Greninja in Scarlett and Violet?
I think at best you can argue the pokemon company is inconsistent about this, which is generally worse for the forms case. We're not going to be seeing Ash or Geninja ever again anyway
Of course it's not retconned
He's just saved for future gen 6 remake, just like mega evolutions....
Exactly my point
People say they are trying to move away from Mega Evolution like stuff whicj would include ash greninja, yet you can literally see Mega CharizardX in that flashblack. GF has rectonned the Ash-Greninja Form and it's pretty obvious.
Thanks for giving my boy justice, unlike The pokemon company
No problem brother, anytime 🙏🙏
I don't understand why the Pokemon Company couldn't have just removed Ash Greninja from the games while just keeping it in the anime. It's understandable that they'd only have it be in the games for one generation in Alola because like with the collectible Zygarde cells GameFreak was just doing some fan service since gen 6 was still popular at that time. It's understandable that after giving it a spotlight in gen 7 they'd want to move on from having that gift in the games. But the anime shouldn't have to follow that move. The anime Ash Greninja is THE Ash Greninja. It's not just a game mechanic in the anime, it's part of Greninja and Ash's story and character growth. That'd be like taking Ultra Instinct out of a Dragon Ball video game and then forcing the anime to never have Goku go Ultra Instinct again
Seems suspect. I can't believe people would actually believe he was reconned when there'd be no reason for it to be removed from what's canonical in the first place.
Especially coming from Pokémon of all companies 💀
Suspecious*
@@kairozuma ...Suspicious*. But "Suspect" is also grammatically correct you doink.
@@ARandomEliatrope People keep saying suspect because of among us
@@kairozuma ...Dude. No.
It makes sense. Moreover on the fact that the franchise specified that Ash-Greninja's form is mainly based on XY Ash (which is mainly his main attire in that season [hence the namesake] due to the white curving neck pattern & the red hat colors (besides the sideburns); I mean if they did that repeatedly if/when Ash & Greninja would reunite (take Journeys for example), that would mean they'd have to change the Ash-Greninja form to match what Ash looks like now in order for the form to be Ash-Greninja as Greninja's look would have to be similar to Ash)
Except that greninja doesn't look like ash Greninja looks so normal archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/6/6d/XY099.png
I guess Z-A will truly determine if they axed him because he was pretty much just a mega, or just because they disliked him
2:24 the best gardener the world has ever known
LOL
My guess is the only reason they removed Ash Greninja from the games is because it was kinda dumb for players to be able to use Ash Greninja in the first place... Its _Ash's_ Pokemon. That form only exists when its Ash's Greninja. Having the player able to use it defeats the purpose and devalues Ash Greninja's significance.
archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/thumb/6/6d/XY099.png/1200px-XY099.png
the power was not lost, what happened is just the visual is no longer present, as it can accomplish everything it could do in that form
Then why isn't it there for the Kalos flashbacks? They retconned the form, plain and simple. Battle Bond was nerfed in SV
@@Nighterac It wasn't nerfed, it was a burf
I really like Greninja and wished they hadn't removed Ash-Greninja from the anime, but this video does a poor job at justifying why it would still be canon.
First of all, why does the community think that it isn't canon? As you said, the fact that they show a frame from XY where he was transformed, now not being transformed, as well as the removal of the Battle Bond mechanicis in Scarlet and Violet. But you fail to mention how in the episode that Greninja comes back in Journeys, they make their absolute best to avoid mentioning Ash-Greninja, either by name or by the fact it IS a transformation. That is the main problem, the refusal of Ash or even flashbacks to properly show in the current context of the anime that Ash-Greninja still exists.
Saying that an opening showing unchanged clips from past series or a promotional video including Ash-Greninja in a recap of Ash's battles isn't a good argument. The opening DOES show Ash-Greninja, and so does the Ash battle compilation video, becasue they aren't changing the footage. The Journeys Ash v Alain fight DOES change the footage, it's redrawn, and Ash-Greninja is removed. Dialogue and context clues of the episode also imply Ash-Greninja isn't a thing, yes, Ash mentions becoming Greninja and Greninja becoming him, but he says the same when Lucario manages to synchronize with him as good as Ash.
That same episode heavily implies the special bond of Ash and Greninja is aura related, with Ash's Lucario being trained into bonding better with Ash by Greninja, and making the way Greninja senses the vines very similar to Lucario's aura sensing abilities. You also fail to mention how in that episode Ash, Greninja and Lucario fight all together against the vines, Lucario megaevolves but Greninja, despite being with Ash, doesn't transform, even when it's stated that all three are currently in sync.
Datamined data of Pokémon HOME does shown there's sprites of Ash-Greninja still around, so it's not like the games have forgotten him, but at the same time, his exclusion of SV is really strange. Like the nerf to libero and protean, battle bond was probably modified to not have in battle transformation like megaevolution, probably the same reason why the items to access primal reversion and ultraexplosion have also been removed since gen 8, all in favor to the new kid, terastalization.
What's even insulting is how Ogerpon has special unique benefits after terastalizing, and even worse, Terapagos now just experiencing an effect identical to megaevolution/primal reversion/battle bond/ultraexplosion while terastalizing.
It is pretty clear that they are moving away Ash-Greninja being a thing, with how every episode with Greninja makes its best to avoid mentioning the form and name (even though the name is canon to the anime continuity), and even equalizing their special bond to some aura shenanigans Ash also share with Lucario now, with Greninja even sensing when Ash and Mega-Lucario output a lot of aura together. Unchanged past footage does show Ash-Greninja, but it also mentions Arceus only having 16 plates, before the pixie, neutral and legendary plates were a thing, as well as the retcon of steel, dark and fairy types always existing in the anime, so the anime isn't above overwriting old lore, and sadly, it looks like this is exactly what happened to Ash-Greninja
I feel like when they changed the ability in the games they tried to get rid of him and make it just a stat boost thing then realised they can’t
I dunno why this even gets so heavily debated. They changed the way battle bond works because A: it was just easier to go about it this way when the series stopped dealing with different “forms” for the Pokemon this way, and B: it really makes more sense for battle bond to highlight the bond with you, the player, instead of the bond with Ash if this variant is sticking around in the series for the long term, which it is.
show me proof that the form is ever even going to show up again
@@GV5 pokemon home
@@GV5 uh, there is no evidence the form will come back, because the Battle Bond form has been retooled into Moxie/Beast Boost/Chilling or Grim Neigh on steroids, raising multiple stats under the same conditions. That being said, seeing as how Ash’s Greninja is in Home (that’s how it gets into Scarlet and Violet, after all) and this is pretty seamlessly built on the coding of already existing abilities, there’s at the very least no reason to think the ability in its new form is going anywhere. Quite frankly, I wouldn’t be surprised to see it expanded under these conditions in the future.
Battle bond was kinda good back in the day
I have always felt like Ash Greninja was intended to be Mega Greninja but was demoted when Pokemon Z got canned.
Also in the first chapter of the journeys manga ash remembers ash-greninja in the first page there's literally ash-greninja
My only gripe is that they removed Ash-Greninja but they added Palafin who also transforms into a much more powerful form. Arguably more busted, but on top of that the ability works similarly. Ash-Greninja was never a button you press to activate the form (which is what it should've been, like Mega Evolution) but rather you had to complete a certain action to activate the ability. In all honesty, they definitely could've put it in. Gameplay wise it's not all that game breaking since in-game they went out of their way to make it work differently than Mega Evolution. Heck it even adds 110 points to Greninja's BST rather than just 100 points like Mega Evolution. But also the form itself wasn't even tied to any gimmick because there was no Mega Ring needed, meaning it would still make sense to appear in Gen 8 and 9 games. Plus in game they acknowledge Ash-Greninja in Nemona's house I believe (or her dorm).
Getting past the reason why it should be in the games regardless if Megas were taken out or not, I agree that it isn't retconned exactly. But I do think they want to temporarily ignore the existence until we get the next round of Kalos games. I mean your reasoning that Ash-Greninja isn't appearing because Megas aren't there, might I ask you too look at Ash's Mega Lucario? They framed it exactly the way they wanted, because Megas weren't gone in the anime yet they still decided to not show Ash-Greninja. If anything to me it seems that GameFreak wanted to ignore it as a feature in the games and just have it as an easter egg, so the anime had to follow. But the opening and the top battles videos don't reprove the existence of Ash-Greninja since those are old clips, they haven't made new appearances of Ash-Greninja and even made it so Greninja fought Alain's Charizard as just base form Greninja. Which didn't happen in the finals, they both transformed so they definitely wanted to make that clear.
Even with that I think we'll see Ash-Greninja again if we get some kind of Legends Kalos game or something, as there's lore for the form. Remember in the anime when Ash-Greninja first appeared, it had lore about how the savior of Ninja Village was a Greninja that looked a lot like Ash-Greninja. Well if we got a Legends Game for Kalos, maybe during the war 3000 years ago we could see an event or storyline like Bloodmoon Ursaluna. Where we just see this special Greninja roaming around, and it would be the basis for the legend in the future.
it was never retconned, they just knew if they showed the form even once then it would portray lucario being the main focus of the episode at all, that episode was mainly for lucarios development, but W explanation and W vid👍🏽
Theirs multiple reasoning as to why ash greninja is retconned, I just listed most of em, this is another good one you just listed, and thanks so much for your compliment! 💙
@@Pokiiii62yeah, people need to realize that if ash-greninja was retconned then most of the storyline of xyz is ruined because greninja was a huge deal in xyz
I own the Toy, I own the Card, it was the main member of my team in my first gen 7 playthrough. Hope he comes back soon.
Dw, gen 6 remakes are right around the corner my friend
As u can see I am very happy that u are confirming this fact because greninja is my favourite Pokémon and the ash greninja form is the coolest
Merry early Christmas, uploaded dec 27th, that is very early Christmas, got every ither holiday in between
Niceee!!
i just wish i heard the xyz opening when greninja transforms again
Same friend, it's so good
I thought i read somewhere that the only reason that they didn’t show ash greninja in journys was to not take away from lucario
“Ash greninja is here to stay” both ash and greninja are no longer in the anime💀
Also this isn’t a hate comment
He's most likely coming back in gen 6 remakes along with megas so it makes sense why they removed it in the games due to tera being a thing,
Lol no worries bro
@@Pokiiii62 i feel like there should be battle bonds for all three starters of that gen tho. Kinda like a post game thing
this was a great vid, and yea, you convinced me that ash greninja is still canon, but i js wish he was still in the games
Don't worry, he's most likely just being saved till the Gen 6 remakes
Maybe they didn't show ash greninja form in the flashback to make people think ash greninja wasn't weak since he lost to mega charizard
this all seems like a stretch even that they retconned Ash Greninja
What I said wasn't a stretch, it's very valid arguments
💯That type of battle mechanic is just so goddamn awesome I wish they would bring Mega Evolution back along with this awesome Pokemon
I think it’s because it would have been expected for an Ash Greninja scene which would ruin Luxarios development. I also think it’s because we might be getting enhanced versions of SV with a free Ash Greninja in the leaked new Switch. Like how SM had a free battle bond greninja
Exactly, that's one of the key points
I think the fan base would go genuinely apeshit if they dropped an enhanced version _after_ the $90 full game.
they aren’t dropping an “enhanced SV” .. are you high?
I’d argue that it wouldn’t ruin Lucario’s development at all, but actually enhance it. Greninja getting to go all out in his Ash-Gren form next to Lucario would be nothing BUT a motivator for Lucario without having to even say a word
People saying Ash-Greninja got retconned because of the form not showing up at all in the episode he returned for is so funny to me, because that completely changes and ruins an entire arc of the anime, and why would they try to remove that? It’s like saying Goku’s Kaioken got retconned because he never (canonically) used it again in Z after he got Super Saiyan. DBS would’ve gotten rid of any doubts eventually anyways.
And it not being in the games makes sense, since why would we be able to use a form that should be exclusive to Ash? Honestly we shouldn’t have even been able to use it in SM, but it is what it is. This also was the last time we saw Megas, and Ash-Greninja was pretty similar to Mega Evolution anyways. At least with its new effects, we can still use Ash’s Greninja without it being locked to Pokemon Home for the rest of its days.
Not a hater, by the contrary, I love Ash-Greninja, but I really gotta point it out that you're basing your argument on a 2 second clip of the opening (which said clip is taken from the XYZ anime, it's not like they reanimated in the new style), and a montage of Ash's best fights, which yeah Ash Greninja vs Mega Zard X WAS SO GOOD, even if they won't do anything else with Ash Greninja, they still gotta pay respects for it.
I won't use the word retcon, so if they really didn't remove Ash Greninja, why would go the extra-mile to remove it from the reanimated sequence of the Ash-ninja vs Mega Zard X flashback, and completely change the Battle Bond ability, which is how Ash-ninja even exists? I mean, sure, I get it, we really don't want this form to die, but we gotta be realistic, man.
What do you mean it doesn't make sense? - to address the game point IT COMPLETELY MAKES SENSE, why would the form exist in the games when the entire premise of the scarlet and violet games are terras, keeping ash greninjas form change is completely stupid considering the fact it was added in a Gen surrounding by megas, which makes sense they would take it out cause their are no megas or primals, especially since they could just be changing it now and bringing it back when gen 6 remakes come out when they give the starters megas and bring back the form, it's completely plausible that's the case
@@Pokiiii62 Okay, this is the game version, now tell me why would they remove Ash-ninja from the flashback of the Ash-ninja most epic battle, please
@andrewschaosson okay so you acknowledged the game point, thank gosh, as for the anime, it's purely because ash actively explains the fusion between him and greninja, contradicting the "retconned" theory, not only that but why should a flashback determine ash greninja's canonicity, do you understand how incredibly dumb that is? - to base a retcon simply because the form wasn't shown? - not to mention when ash litterally describes the form itself and process behind it? - a single frame from the past is barley enough to force a "retcon"
@@Pokiiii62 Doesn't he also describes pretty much the same feeling, but instead of Greninja is Pikachu? Even Lucario, actually
Ash Greninja's form was retconned, otherwise he would still have it in the Kalos flashbacks. There is no reason Greninja should not have his form during the Kalos finals flashbacks, it literally makes no sense. The whole point of that fight is about Ash Greninja vs Mega Zard X, like what was built up throughout the entirety of XYZ. And don't give me that excuse that kids don't know what Ash Greninja is, he's literally in Smash Ultimate and many grew up with XY. By that same logic, Paul and mons like Infernape are even OLDER than Ash-Greninja, but they brought him back! Kids don't know who Paul is. This argument is just absurd.
No, they purposefully did this. It is a retcon plain and simple. Anyone who says otherwise is just in denial, or worse, delusional.
fun fact for sun and moon games, if you have played the demo, you can then send your ash greninja from the demo to your sun and moon games
Retcon doesn't necessarily mean removed from cannon but change in established lore. They have been very inconsistent with ash greninja lately. For one they change the flash back in journeys, journeys remakes accurate flash backs but in the new art atyle e.g the paul flash backs. No reason not to show the ash greninja form in the flash back. They also didn't make greninja transform in its return episode. Aim to be a pokemon master also only used archived footage from the series with their opening. The change to battle bond in games is also interesting but that could just be for gameplay mechanics.
It’ll be back in the Kalos Remakes
6:12 If they still acknowledge it then why did they remove it in Pokemon Ultimate Journeys?
I'm not talking about the Pokemon Ultimate Journeys Aim To be a Pokemon Master Series, I'm talking about Pokemon Ultimate Journeys The Masters 8 Arc!
I can understand if they don't wanna show Ash-Greninja in the scene where Ash reunited with Greninja and say that Greninja lost the ability to change form. I can buy that!
What I don't get is them not showing it in the Alain vs Ash flashback.
It already happened!? What's wrong with showing the Form in the Flashback!?
About the Opening proof...
You're right! That doesn't count! It's just an opening!
Plus it's just a clip from XY that was put in the recent Anime opening. It doesn't technically mean that the Ash-Greninja Form still exist in the Anime after XY.
Besides! I'm sure they just put Ash-Greninja there because they know they messed up in Journey by not putting Ash-Greninja. So... Yeah! The opening doesn't count.
But... I do believe it still exist! The Pokemon Company is just not acknowleding it enough.
The fact they did acknowledge it, is already going against what retcon is, they would want nothing to do with it if it was truly retconned, it's the pokemon company, they've done it before they would do it again if they wanted to
this is the second video i watched from you and i didnt even notice that you had 585 subs only, needless to say you have 586 now.
keep up the work!
This warms my heart, thank you so much for the kind words as well as the gesture, I'll try to pump out more videos like this one!
@@Pokiiii62 thank you for the videos, i usually end up at home crawling into bed and its always fun to turn up a video going on about theories and facts, these sort of things genuinely make my day
New sub look forward to more pokemon content 😊
Theres no way pokemon, heck even Nintendo tried to rettcon him. They put him in smash ultimate with his final smash being him turning into Ash Greninja. 🔥🔥🔥
I'm hopping battle bond gets reverted back to its original state
Most likely will in gen 6 remakes
@@Pokiiii62 my hopes are high
no matter what i will always love pokemon it built my childhood and i love it so much
Same friend (love the rengoku pfp, he's the goat)
@@Pokiiii62 yooooooo u replied and yea he is the goat took all the Ls life threw at him and made them Ws
Battle Bond Greninja should’ve been a mega evolution. Gen 6 starters Pokemon should’ve got the mega evolution first. The Pokemon company wanted Gen 1 starters Pokemon to get mega evolution first. The developers wanted Kanto Region players back to playing Pokemon. Pokemon X & Y remake will include all the mega evolution. The game will also include Hoenn Region mega evolution. Something will be added for Pokemon X and Y Remakes. I believe we will get Ash Greninja into Pokemon X and Y remake games but in mega evolution form. That’s my prediction and theory. Pokemon X and Y Remakes will be on Nintendo Switch 2.
Before watching the video I'm just gonna say, it's likely not a retcon thing it's more of "we don't want to redesign ash greninja" since the design was suppose to match his kalos look.
You forgot about ash greninja reference in the SV game. There’s a painting of ash greninja in Pokémon SV in Nemona’s housr
I don't care if Ash-Greninja is canon or not, I still hate it.
Why?
Fun fact : if you go in nemona's house in scarlet and violet game you can see a photo that resembles ash's greyninja so yeah its still exist in game
Luckily Smash Bros gave us Ash Greninja. He is forever Immortalized in Super Smash bros as a final smash move.
because it is a striking scene from the anime, composed of a celebratory opening that only pays homage to the entire phase of the anime
5:43 canon event
Ain't no way 😭
POKEMON Z-A WE ARE SO BACK.
WE ARE FRICKING BACK
So ash will back in za and his kalos team also?
That journey picture of greninja vs charizard x was really Goh imagine it because he didnt know the form existed
Yes your also correct at that front too, the point is this whole debate is so stupid and has no basis 😭
But he didnt know about mega charizard x or alain at the time so that points also wrong
Hey Pokeee. Quick question if the form wasn't retcon then why was greninja in a normal state in a flash back when he was fighting mega zard x
Simply a decision made by the the people working on the episode, but even then in that same said episode Ash litterally states that he and hreninja became one with one another so the flashback makes no sense, especially since it's just a flashback, and that servers little basis compared to a direct statement from the character themselves
@Pokiiii62 Ah I see thanks man
The anime DOES acknowledge Ash greninja, but a lot of people also have a problem with how ash greninjas form was removed from battle bond, including myself. It was similar to mega evolution, and it seemed the games may have wanted to distance themselves from ash, who was no longer present. This also annoys me, because palafin basically gets the same thing with zero to hero. It may not have been retconned, but it made a lot of people annoyed, especially some who used him back and sun and moon, and transferred him into home, not knowing the form wouldn’t come back. It’s sad for me, since sun and moon was my first Pokémon game, and I got ash greninja and beat the league with him, start to finish. Hopefully they bring the form back one day.
Coping to the max ngl
It's all true though 😭
Man, I still remember when I was younger and got the Ash Greninja pokemon card. It looked so cool, and I wanna get it graded now but I'm worried it won't be a good grade.
I can disprove all of this right now.
First point, Ash Greninja is a form change not a mega. Although it appears and acts similarly, it is coded as a form change (think wishiwashi). This doesnt not compare to Ultra Necrozma, as it requires an item and Greninja doesn't. If Zmoves were in swsh and sv, Necrozma could turn into Ultra Necrozma. Battle bond IS in the game but he doesn't transform into Ash Greninja anymore...
Second point, yes a single frame does make Ash Greninja retconned because they have no other reason not to include something so pivotal to the story and a comparison to what Ash and Lucario were going through unless it is retconned. You dont just erase a very important part of the story for no reason other than to retcon it. They didn't just do that for funzies.
And if you wanna say "well Ash Greninja was shown in the MPM opening" (because this is a very common point) openings are not canon to the main story. Think of all the times openings have shown something that hasn't happened (Ash chasing a Ho-oh in his DP clothes in op 4, Charizard vs Reshiram in BW op 3) yes that was canon, but only to XYZ.
gameplay wise i'd think Gamefreak didn't want to put Ash-Greninja in because it would make Greninja OP with its Tera option
Anime-Wise? i mean the form was the biggest shit for XYZ anime and the new writers really didn't want to disrespect the OG
also i always though that frame was Goh imaginating the fight and Goh doesn't know Ash Greninja form
Goh doesn't know Alain 🙄
@@spinotikus1518 ok maybe It wasn't Goh immagination, still pretty farfetch to Say Ash Greninja doesn't exist anymore
@@Mepphy99 The funniest thing about this situation is that Ash could have shown Goh the Greninja duel on ,,RUclips " instead of translating from memory 😏
Why wasn't the form shown in the 2019 anime ?(not counting the opening) I get it, Greninja couldve forgotten how to transform but why wasn't it present in ash's flashback? Why do the games not include the form anymore? I feel they only include the form in clips such as the opening and advertising in jp is because ashes journey is over so they want to display every note worthy thing he and his pokemon have done, and they knew people would be upset again if they ignored it again
If that's the case, then again, it means it's NOT retconned, for Ash greninja to be retconned, it would have to be lost in time if you use the argument that "they did it because the public would've been "mad"
your sorley mistaken, because for something to be retconned, it means to be out of existence and never shown again, using something like "the public wouldn't allow it" is fallacious and dumb considering they wouldn't chance a aspect of their source material just cause people felt butthurt about it
As for the games, why would it make sense to keep ash greninja? - the form is litterally as strong as megas so it would be completely broken and wouldn't make sense because of Terras and stuff, it would make more sense to remove it and save it for
- future games with megas
If Pokemon Horizon turns out to be a reboot/parallel reality, then Ash Greninja's form will be non-canon 😏
It’s still a sh**job that the flashback scene didn’t have Ash-Greninja’s form in it. But I’m just glad he’s not retconned.
2:13
It taking the training Hawlucha, Talonflame, and Noivern needed also played a role in Ash losing.
im gonna be commenting on this again, if people wanna keep saying that its just a “opening” and it doesnt prove anything,
1. then why did they include base greninja right before the ash-greninja clip?
2. They could have used a base greninja clip for that
3. They dont add something in a opening that they retconned
4. they would have retconned it like how they retconned arcanine being a legendary in the original series, and they actually they never acknowledged about arcanine being a legendary ever again.
I hope the form will return when mega return in xy remakes
I stopped watching journeys after gou caught Suicune to hear they didn't show ash Greninja is disappointing
Man... the fight against Leon was cool tho
Still don’t get why they removed the form in Scarlet and Violet.
They're most likely bringing it back for Gen 6 remakes anyways it's all good
@@Pokiiii62 Hopefully they don’t pull a BDSP again then
I just want Ash Greninja form back in the game
Ash Greninja doesn't exist in the new series because :-
1) He was removed from the GAMES because they had introduced a New Transformation function aka Terrastilisation and if they kept Ash Greninja then he could be confused with Terrastilising
2) He was removed from the ANIME because they would have had to redraw Ash Greninja to look like the current Ash and then have to explain why Ash Greninja doesn't exist in Gen 9
Battle bond still exists though? I have one with it in SV.
my guess in the paldea region is that there is no like mega evolution energy (what i think at least didn't look at the lore sense last year) due to the crater Eternatus (my guess on why paldea has a bid hole in middle of it) made i think the dynamx energy and mega energy cinda disables each other
This all could have easily been avoided if they didn’t fuck Battle Bond in Scarlet and Violet
It's coming back most likely in gen 6, wouldn't make sense to add it in a game centered around a new gimmick
It's funny because Y's Greninja from Pokémon Adventures manga... has the BATTLE BOND ABILITY.. and yet it never transformed into the so called Ash Greninja B(
Merry Christmas
i mean, i know that they acknowledge the old animation pieces where he is featured, but i mean, it's not like they'll reanimate the battle just to erase ash greninja,
He may not be retconned, but i still find weird that every single NEW piece of media, goes against him, like, when they have to feature him again, they don't, they remove him from the flashback in journeys for no real reason, in journeys itself it doesn't appear, the powers are shown but the actual form doesn't appear, and it's weirder what they did with the games to literally just remove him
your points to justify this are weak, there was simply no reason to not show him in an actual piece of new animation
the game's mechanics have nothing to do with it, he was not a mega, he was it's own thing, the ability that allowed him to change was ported over but modified to not transform him, necrozma doesn't transform because the things he needed to do so aren't in the games, just as with megas, but other pokémon that can transform mid battle via conditions that aren't game related gimmicks can still transform.