I've always thought, personally, that we should start by asking ourselves these two questions: 1) "Does Bemani have plans of doing a 20?" 2) "Is Endymion a 20?" Out of that we can kinda do a little matrix out of the yes/no's of these two questions and arrive at some fun conclusions. My opinions, for example: - if Bemani does have plans on a 20 and Endymion is a 20, it's likely that they want the 20 to be "perfect" in some kind of way and Endymion was not it, and will be rerated once 20s are more common. This is probably the best option if you want the 20 to be really iconic instead of just a good hard chart - if Endymion is NOT a 20 and Bemani does not have plans on making a 20, then yeah it's easy to imagine a scenario where the 19s would shape up to be something like IIDX 12s as mentioned, and Endymion will either represent the highest echelon of DDR difficulty, or the midpoint if even harder charts appear and are still 19s themselves - if Endymion is a 20, but Bemani does NOT have plans on making a 20, then they just underrated the shit out of it and are embarassed to make it an actual 20 in lieu of, say, something they released with the express intent of being that difficult. This is kinda like the first scenario but bad - if Bemani does have plans on a 20 and Endymion is NOT a 20, then we have actually no fucking idea what a 20 is lmao. It's gonna be Divine Strike CSP tier, who knows Overall I thought that the video was quite interesting and I liked it, I just wanted to add that maybe questioning whether Endymion is actually a 20 in the grand scheme of things is interesting instead of considering it a given just because it's harder than the rest of the folder (even if by a significant margin)
Take Sentimental Masochist as a Lv.20 song. Tons of jumpstreams, deathstreams, 523.73BPM, 2 instances of 1337.82BPM FOR 2 seconds, & Jumpjacks. Plus a slowdown. Beginner being a Lv. 13 of course.
I had a dream one time where DDR had a new difficulty chart past Challenge called S★ just so they could avoid the number 20 rating because they were really scared of the number 20
Tangentially related to a possible 20: I made a public spreadsheet called "Spreadsheet of step data for all songs and charts released in DanceDanceRevolution" that you can find by searching the title. The sheet includes columns that (roughly) estimate the rating using Multiple Linear Regression (MLR) over step data, one column with most official X-scale charts and the other with a community-made 14.0-19.99 charts list. According to that rating estimation, the current scale of 1-19 is *not a good fit* for chart difficulty and that a 1-25 scale would be more accurate, with more granularity starting at around 13s-15s, not dissimilar to Pump It Up's 1-28 system. Maybe Bemani could introduce a new DDR difficulty scale and new hardest boss song at the same time?
I think a good idea for a 20 is finally going over that 2-2:30 minute mark for songs. Maybe make it cost 2 credits and make it a 3-4 minute song kinda like pump it up's full songs. I know this has been done with the console mixes of X and X2 but I'm talking for a arcade release. Looking at ITG it truly shows sometimes longer can lead to higher difficulty's. I feel as 2 minute is a little tough to fit a fun 20 in. As for the april fools thing, I think it could work but not for a first 20. I really enjoyed the video and keep up the good work man!
it could be interesting if the extra stage system used for it was based on credits and for the final song (which would be the 20) it would need double the amount of credits as the previous song (so if you needed 5 extra credits for the penultimate song you'd need 10 for the 20), and in regular play, would be worth two songs as opposed to one like a long version song in 5th mix.
First of all, i just want to say that I absolutely love your videos and appreciate whenever a new one comes out 🧡 Now for the whole level 20 thing: I definitely think that one of the 5 doomsday scenarios will happen once a 20 comes out. If I had to guess how it would be messed up, my money's on shock arrows, 100%. If i were making my own level 20 chart, what I'd do just as a joke is make the last note a quad and with the explosion sound effect from Paranoia Evolution lol 😅 But anyway, thanks again for the videos! You are without a doubt one of my favorite RUclipsrs to watch! ^w^
If I put a quad down in a StepMania chart's audio, I would just put a vine boom down as well (plus original audio). On a similar note but unrelated to DDR, Clone Hero 5-note chords.
i know it’s most likely not gonna happen, but i would love if NAOKI came back to compose the first 20 chart. i know he left but i’m still hoping that MAYBE, he will come back and compose the song for the first 20 chart
Right now with him being a composer for Pump it Up now, it's more likely for him to compose a D28/S26 song than to compose a 20 on DDR. Still would be exciting if you like the game or not, but yeah.
@@VideoGameStarChannelSupreme He's released tracks for StepManiaX now too; so he's not Pump-exclusive, he's just acting as an independent/contracted sound producer instead of an internal one. There's absolutely NO REASON why DDR couldn't feature another NAOKI track, and it wouldn't even read "Bemani Sound Team NAOKI" under it... unless he were to do that for posterity's sake or to make fun of that. B8U /TheArtistFormerlyUnknownAsBemaniSoundTeamNAOKI
@@TonyTheTGR Speculatively, there could be emotional reasons as to why there haven't been any NAOKI tracks in modern DDR. He left the team somewhere around the X era and almost entirely stopped appearing after X3 vs 2nd mix. I haven't heard of any new tracks by him that aren't ports or crossovers during the current A era.
@@VideoGameStarChannelSupreme KONAMI themselves went on a big producer killing spree around then. It wasn't just NAOKI that got "retired" - they kicked Hideo Kojima, Akira Yamaoka, and Iga Kogarashi to the curb as well (hence at least two of the three latter ones going indie). Lately there seems to be some comearound to production values and whether or not this makes a difference remains to be seen. I mean, they once sued NIGORO for accidentally covering a MSX track (it was supposed to be a tribute track, not a note-for-note plagarism)... and NOW they're literally contracting them to produce a new Maze of Gallious (the game that mainly inspired La Mulana in the first place!) - and you can see good blood between them and the Dead Cells team which I think coproduced the new Getsu FumaDen game (which is quite similar) in exchange for featuring the Castlevania DLC on their own game. There's a different vibe check today for sure.
Camellia (artist) makes some really catchy speedcore tunes with "balls-to-the-wall" BPMs. One of those songs could easily make it as a Lv 20 boss song in DDR A3.
before watching video: yeah it's called Endymion Doubles Challenge okay now i'll watch the video and see if you decided to call out my smartass comment a minute in
Knowing Konami, They'd need to crank out a couple before they made some that were actually good (IMO Lachryma and Max 360 are still the best made 19s). You probably couldn't make a Lv. 20 without giving it stupidly crazier gimmicks than Valkyrie Dimension's INSANE speedup, or OTP's MASSIVE fluctuations. OR just actually embrace bracketing / Footswitch tech instead of just peppering in little bits and pieces of it. One thing I've ALWAYS liked Pump for over DDR is that while they have their own boss songs which both have High end charts and mid level ones that are unusually hard for the level they're posted at (1949/50, Desparecer, Gargoyle, Prime Time, Ultimatum, Gloria, Paradoxx). They don't just have these sweeping epic or intimidating sounding songs as higher level stuff. They're willing to experiment and have totally weird and silly sounding songs have these INSANE charts because they're incredibly flexible with the types of tech they're willing to implement (MopeMope s23, Love Scenario s17, Mr. Larpus s20, Native s20, Top City s20). Granted this is also because the speed options are FAR more flexible than in DDR but that's moreso down to Konami's inherently limiting design. To wrap around back to the initial question, I think eventually DDR will get a 20 (although it probably won't be very good), but they would seriously need to look at how the modern 4 panel scene charts 14/15 footer material in order to have a baseline for how to make a QUALITY 20.
I think we might need a few more 19s before we get an actual 20. But I'm gonna be honest, I would not put it past them to make a 20. XX Starlight has proven you can make a functional 20 (even if it's a little too ballistic for me), but I don't know if konami would be willing to look at what fans are up to try and get inspiration from.
There's only seven level 19 charts right now. And they're so hard that most players can barely even clear them, let alone score well on them. We don't need a 20 yet.
I hear you, but isn't this the longest DDR has gone without a new difficulty? Even pretending it ever made sense for Max 300 and Pluto Relinquish to be the "same" difficulty. Just checked and Valkyrie Dimension was fully unlocked on February 23 __2011__. It's already been AAA'd, and Egoism has been PFC'd. I personally think it is time.
It doesn't have to be that more brutal than Endymion/Lachryma, it just has to set the floor for 20s. Although I would agree it'd be better to have more 19s unless you want a PIU scenario where you have few 19s and one or two 20s and you can actually count the people who have passed them.
@@eiyukabe 28s are the highest it goes and most of the 28s in the game have a single digit amount of unique clears. Pump is a way more clear focused game though so it makes way more sense to have far hardest charts compared to DDR which is a more accuracy and consistency focused game
What an interesting discussion! I never expected such depth with regard to responding to said question. That being said, here are my thoughts: 1) It seems like DDR won't introduce a new difficulty due to the last time being already more than 10 years ago. 2) The discussion on difficulty delineation between 17s and 18s was interesting because it reminds us why DDR X changed the difficulty rating system in the first place - due to a lack of delineation as well. The possibility of spreading 17s and 18s to 17-19s seems to fit the bill here, or perhaps suggest to a revamp of the difficulty system again.
Late, but... I agree with you! I think they should rerate songs like Endymion, Lachryma, Max 360, etc. as 20s after they finally release their actual "end boss" songs, even if it's just to flesh out the mythical 20s folder.
I think the main thing with a 20 would be if it's the first 20 most of it's gimmicks should be commonplace in a lot of charts and should just be there to add flair. At that level slowdowns and laterals aren't even gimmicks anymore and the stops/shock arrow usage for the first 20 should probably be like less than 2 or 3 a piece if any (mainly for flair not inflating difficulty). An artist I think you could put top 3 for "evil boss song sound" would be Hommarju and some of his songs are begging for CSP (although 20 should be original). The unlock even needs to be extremely hype though, maybe torture people by making it a 5th song you play after Kaiden AA+? I personally loved the grind to pass ZETA CSP exclusively in the course trial in A20, although I know I'd score better if the chart was isolated it just felt special.
it's been nearly 13 years since we recieved the first 19. the jump from 15 to 16 took 2 years. then 16 to 18 was 4 years. then 18 to 19 was another 4 years. we are now at 12-13 years and waiting for a 20. i think we're ready for one, finally. ENDYMION is soley a 19 and a hard 19 at that but it can be made more difficult and that's why it remains a 19. DON"T push a song beyond 2:10 seconds just for difficullty purposes. personally when we get a 20, it should be no less then 460bpm (230bpm) but more likely a 500bpm (250BPM) song with harsher patterns then ENDYMION. It's gotta be a "you might be able to pass a 19 but your sure as hell not touching a 20" situation. like a Voltississimo ESP to max 360 CSP difference. i also hope it doesn't rely on a new gimmick to make the 20 and instead leave it for an A4A's type situation again. here's hoping for a REPLICANT style ES system again in the future though
This may be off base, but lately I've added DJ Totto to the people I think could have the first 20 or next 19. They seem to really like him in A3 (especially recently) and his songs tend to be high bpm with fast streams, slowdowns, etc. It'd certainly be a departure from the style of classic ddr boss songs, but one that i could maybe see them taking if they had him make a song that was a bit darker/harder style compared to his usual.
6:57 They brought back BABY-LON for BABY-LON'S GALAXY, as well as a three-credit start to pay to speed up the unlocks and a stupidly hard boss song *FEFEMZ* couldn't clear until they lowered the gauge requirement. Said boss song is still a 19 lol
I can't wait for Endymion 2 Survivor Max Dirty B4-ZA Beat Angelic Perfect Sphere Mix Groove Voltage SMM-X Special Edit: But in all seriousness great video keep up the good work!!
Tatsuya Iyama (as Max Maximizer) might be a good option for the first 20 -- he's only had one song debut on DDR so far, and that was as Qrispy Joybox, so it could be a worthy challenge for him. On top of that, with RB and Beatstream being effectively dead, he hasn't really had a home, so it would be reasonable to put him on DDR. U1 will most likely be involved though. But more importantly, and hear me out here: once the first 20 is released, the floor will finally be open for Homeneko Sensation CSP/CDP 20.
4:22 The problem is that this would echo down the entire difficulty scale, and with so many charts finding out where everything goes might be a pain. Hell, due to its 8th note jacks, fuckin’ Lesson By DJ might become a 2, who knows. Though if it upgrades The Legend of Max to a 16, fine by me. But what would be the new entry-level whatevers? I can definitely see Elemental Creation DSP becoming an entry 15, but I don’t see the same for Pluto or Chaos. Those songs are gimmicky as shit, sure, but do gimmicks still hold the same weight in difficulty affecting in Daniel’s expanded 20-point scale? If Onyx and Mirai da Future become more definitive 14s and 15s, what will the next target of contention be?
Now that bemani pro league is about to happen, I think we have a good chance of getting another 19 or a 20. Maybe they'll do a super cool unlock event after the season is over
Well yes i wonder what a ddr 20 will be, ive been on the side of "please no official ddr 20s" for reasons like divine strike from starlight or any other user made 20. Even if well designed, it being hard makes it not fun most of the time. I can see a world where someone / konami makes a good 20, but my vison of a good 20 is more itg style steps. (Starlight has good 19s though i just dont like divine strike chart wise lol)
I'm surprised that the artist you picked doesn't include Camellia, because Camellia is like the staple boss song generator out there. Stuff like from the Xronial Xero album fits the bill really well into how serious DDR boss songs are. Also the hype it creates if Camellia really did create the first 20 in DDR would affect other rhythm game's fanbase as well because it's a widely known name. ======== I would expand a bit on your opinion that is "ENDYMION could be the easy 20, and other songs can get a rerate especially on 17-19 scale". I do think ENDYMION fits the bill as a 20, but there's just a few charts that are closing in to ENDYMION that I think KONAMI is ironing this out. Lachryma and OTP does fit being the hard 19 if ENDYMION does rerated as a 20. But that's only two of the few. Maybe VOLAQUAS, if they planned to add a CSP for it. Ironing the level range does increase the number of 19s, but the gap between these 19s and ENDYMION is still far. If they did plan to add more 19s that are hard, I think we could expect more SDVX boss songs to cross into DDR as it's the easier way to polish the difficulty gaps between 19s and ENDYMION if it does rerated into 20. I also do think that KONAMI is kind of afraid making it too much harder than it should be. There is a case in other popular rhythm game as well that's similar to this, namely CHUNITHM and maimai. In CHUNITHM, there's a song called Ikazuchi. Its MASTER difficulty was rated 13+ and became the first Lv13+. However it was too hard that when the difficulty range expanded into 14, this chart got rerated into 14 and subsequently making it into the first Lv14. Then it got rerated into Lv15 when the range expanded into 15. Another SEGA game, maimai introduces PANDORA PARADOXXX as the first 14. But when the range expanded into 15, it is also rerated as Lv15 and currently stands as the only Lv15 in the game. The case with CHUNITHM and maimai I think plays a significant role in influencing KONAMI on their way to create the new 20. What if it was too hard, and they need to expand into a 30-level range where this new 20 is rated 21 or 22? If that's the case, even ENDYMION is not enough as a stepping stone to properly play that chart. TL;DR: Yes, I think DDR will eventually get a proper 20, but they need to iron out the gap in the 19 sections first. And they most likely don't want it to be three times harder than ENDYMION and need to expand the rating range again.
@@itspim-tk8ow Camellia is just a guest contributor in Tano*C, not mainstays like topazo, aran, Laur, etc. Also Camellia is very much an active contributor in BEMANI. He has songs in IIDX 30, licensed album songs in jubeat ave. a few months ago, and just made a remix of Lindwurm in Dancerush a few weeks ago.
To me the first step to a 20 is filling out the 19s more, and the first step to *that* is filling out the hardest 18s more to make a bridge to the 19s... which BEMANI is already doing. I don't know if they'll ever have the balls to make the 20 and you'll right they'll probably fuck it up. But goddammit I've been waiting for this thing for 10+ years. I don't care if I'll never play it. I want my 20! I don't think the shock arrow thing or the remix is very likely. They mostly stopped doing that stuff a while ago.
As much as we want a 20, regardless of whatever it may be or how passable it is, it's not going to happen until we get a 19 pfc, or 19s are regularly appearing in competitions. I don't think that DDRs best has reached a high enough skill for Konami to decide it's worth making a 20. Additionally, not only are there barely any 19s (meaning it's a huge leap to make a 20 already) but I've always felt that 18s were the endgame, and 19s were merely over the top overcharted challenge rewards for those who dare glance the wrong way at them.
THE SAFARI has been the boss song for 20 years and 冥 has been the kaiden boss song since they then... I really wonder which change they'll make, a ddr 20 or THE SAFARI is no longer 7th boss LMAO
I propose this: 2 minutes of 230bpm stream. 115 @ 230 is an ITG 20. Make it a DDR 20 as well because we can pretend Konami never got rid of the old scale. MAX 360 exists, so Konami has no qualms with cheesing stamina to get high rated charts.
Imo, having charted several 19s and 20s (both good, bad and awful), it's not too hard to make a 20 if it's anywhere above 200 BPM. The issue is quality and whether it can hold it's own when more 20s and 19s appear. Quantum Sea Lindwurm is already putting the 18 and 19 borders to the test because it is simply so brutal it's almost a keyboard chart to be played on pad and compared to the low end of 19s somewhat (Paranoia Revolution Challenge, Egoism maybe but that's harder, Max 360 hell no). And as for quality, I don't have beef with any of the 19s but I know the community likes their dose of easy charts and have them called "18." (Look at the difference between Scarlet Police CSP and DEGRS and how they're treated in the community. People cheer the former despite being absurdly easy for an 18 while people shit on anything that's either too gimmicky, has shock arrows or is a clone of DEGRS (Shakunetsu BSB CSP, Reiwa CSP). From the charts I've made, I can name a few that I can solidly like and are good enough to be a 20 (of which appear in the stream I made launching ECS Update 3) - Speedcore Cannon CSP, Dement ~After Legend~ CSP, Freedom Dive CSP, but as I can barely handle 18s on Stepmania (due to harsher life difficulty when compared to DDR) and haven't cleared a 19 on arcade yet, I've yet to run these charts as intended and only have visual calculations and keyboard play. Now, if you want start the discussion of how high we can go, ITG and SMX already have you covered on that department, and the video already shows an ITG 27 stream chart being performed. It's definitely possible to have something beyond 20 or even 25, but the odds of people passing those charts are low.
As someome stated, Bemani should follow the way of Lachryma, for example with the release of Hou in Dddr A3, the bpms don't make sense, it has no real rhytmn. Long gone are the days of really cool sounding boss songs, but nowadays all seem to sound robotic nom human like beat dropping songs.
I'm of the Chris Chike Theory (tm) that 19s should be *reclassified* as 20s, and 18s should be split into 18-19s. We're only up to like, SEVEN of the current 19s (??) and they're really only ever scored by less than one tenth of a percent of the playerbase (IE: Tournament finalists almost exclusively), who are ALREADY an island amongst players so the audience for a level 20 isn't any sigificantly different. Plus, anyone THAT masochistic is already outdoing Komama in Stepmania anyhow. (points to Dragonforce and Pendulum Pack players) So, long story short is NO, there is no reason for higher difficulty when there's much more *breadth* to be explored in the existing range - especially when the player's fun/performance peaks between 16 and 17 anyhow. If anything, I think we'll see more of THOSE as Expert charts, and more 18s on Challenge until players are reasonably performing on a wider variety of those, which appears to be the currently explored "breadth" difficulty anyhow. And if you look at the quality of those, they've improved quite significantly between SuperNOVA2 and X's cringe charts and DDR A's magnificent ones. We just have a lot of COVID rust to shake off getting back to that level, first.
But, no... if you're GOING to go SO FAR to make a NEW DIFFICULTY CLASSIFICATION, 480 BPM ain't it. But hear me out... 555.5 BPM And how have you NOT mentioned DJ TECHNORCH or L.E.D. LIGHT-G?
I’m just saying, put horror, Creepy Vocaloid songs like “Kagome Kagome”, “Happy Song”, anything from the artist “Masa Works Design”, “Unknown Mother Goose”, “Bacterial Contamination”, Ect. I’m trying to create the charts, but they exceeded Lv. 23 sometimes.
As a non-DDR person. What if the limiting factor in song difficulty is the hardware, not the player. I'm don't think they designed the machines thinking of songs would get to the speed or difficulty that would be a level 20.
Lets gooooooo Pluto the Second CSP 20
I've always thought, personally, that we should start by asking ourselves these two questions:
1) "Does Bemani have plans of doing a 20?"
2) "Is Endymion a 20?"
Out of that we can kinda do a little matrix out of the yes/no's of these two questions and arrive at some fun conclusions. My opinions, for example:
- if Bemani does have plans on a 20 and Endymion is a 20, it's likely that they want the 20 to be "perfect" in some kind of way and Endymion was not it, and will be rerated once 20s are more common. This is probably the best option if you want the 20 to be really iconic instead of just a good hard chart
- if Endymion is NOT a 20 and Bemani does not have plans on making a 20, then yeah it's easy to imagine a scenario where the 19s would shape up to be something like IIDX 12s as mentioned, and Endymion will either represent the highest echelon of DDR difficulty, or the midpoint if even harder charts appear and are still 19s themselves
- if Endymion is a 20, but Bemani does NOT have plans on making a 20, then they just underrated the shit out of it and are embarassed to make it an actual 20 in lieu of, say, something they released with the express intent of being that difficult. This is kinda like the first scenario but bad
- if Bemani does have plans on a 20 and Endymion is NOT a 20, then we have actually no fucking idea what a 20 is lmao. It's gonna be Divine Strike CSP tier, who knows
Overall I thought that the video was quite interesting and I liked it, I just wanted to add that maybe questioning whether Endymion is actually a 20 in the grand scheme of things is interesting instead of considering it a given just because it's harder than the rest of the folder (even if by a significant margin)
CosMo is a good pick for a boss song author only because he's so prolific, but we haven't seen him in DDR like that yet.
Take Sentimental Masochist as a Lv.20 song. Tons of jumpstreams, deathstreams, 523.73BPM, 2 instances of 1337.82BPM FOR 2 seconds, & Jumpjacks. Plus a slowdown. Beginner being a Lv. 13 of course.
They need to take one of the slowest, most unassuming songs from an older mix, and CRANK IT UP! Cutie Chaser X-Treme SaTaN's bUtThOlE Mix
I had a dream one time where DDR had a new difficulty chart past Challenge called S★ just so they could avoid the number 20 rating because they were really scared of the number 20
Dreams like this are really a thing. I had a dream of Fascination MAXX back in DDR Extreme days thinking it was a WILD RUSH remix of some kind.
Tangentially related to a possible 20: I made a public spreadsheet called "Spreadsheet of step data for all songs and charts released in DanceDanceRevolution" that you can find by searching the title. The sheet includes columns that (roughly) estimate the rating using Multiple Linear Regression (MLR) over step data, one column with most official X-scale charts and the other with a community-made 14.0-19.99 charts list.
According to that rating estimation, the current scale of 1-19 is *not a good fit* for chart difficulty and that a 1-25 scale would be more accurate, with more granularity starting at around 13s-15s, not dissimilar to Pump It Up's 1-28 system. Maybe Bemani could introduce a new DDR difficulty scale and new hardest boss song at the same time?
I think a good idea for a 20 is finally going over that 2-2:30 minute mark for songs. Maybe make it cost 2 credits and make it a 3-4 minute song kinda like pump it up's full songs. I know this has been done with the console mixes of X and X2 but I'm talking for a arcade release. Looking at ITG it truly shows sometimes longer can lead to higher difficulty's. I feel as 2 minute is a little tough to fit a fun 20 in. As for the april fools thing, I think it could work but not for a first 20. I really enjoyed the video and keep up the good work man!
it could be interesting if the extra stage system used for it was based on credits and for the final song (which would be the 20) it would need double the amount of credits as the previous song (so if you needed 5 extra credits for the penultimate song you'd need 10 for the 20), and in regular play, would be worth two songs as opposed to one like a long version song in 5th mix.
What I find funny is that DDR X CS and even X2 cs edit mode goes up to 20.
If we get a rerun of Pluto The First I'm going to storm the Konami Corporate Office like it's the beaches of Normandy
First of all, i just want to say that I absolutely love your videos and appreciate whenever a new one comes out 🧡
Now for the whole level 20 thing:
I definitely think that one of the 5 doomsday scenarios will happen once a 20 comes out. If I had to guess how it would be messed up, my money's on shock arrows, 100%.
If i were making my own level 20 chart, what I'd do just as a joke is make the last note a quad and with the explosion sound effect from Paranoia Evolution lol 😅
But anyway, thanks again for the videos! You are without a doubt one of my favorite RUclipsrs to watch! ^w^
If I put a quad down in a StepMania chart's audio, I would just put a vine boom down as well (plus original audio). On a similar note but unrelated to DDR, Clone Hero 5-note chords.
@shirohimayumikira234 Bro that would be hilarious 💀
How about "PARANOiA Ritual - CLIMAX of YOUR MOM 480"
why specifically 480
@@pentaxel3905 cause that's the BPM we're specifying in the video?
@@jmokiedm lmfao you still check this comment???
@@pentaxel3905 I got a notification 💀
A 20 footer will come out on the same day as A3 on NA white cabs.
Probably never, maybe soon, I have this feeling we'll relive the X3-2014 era again because the US is too good at the game.
It was too much for them to handle, the cabs bricked at the mere thought of a 20 being released
i know it’s most likely not gonna happen, but i would love if NAOKI came back to compose the first 20 chart. i know he left but i’m still hoping that MAYBE, he will come back and compose the song for the first 20 chart
Right now with him being a composer for Pump it Up now, it's more likely for him to compose a D28/S26 song than to compose a 20 on DDR.
Still would be exciting if you like the game or not, but yeah.
@@VideoGameStarChannelSupreme He's released tracks for StepManiaX now too; so he's not Pump-exclusive, he's just acting as an independent/contracted sound producer instead of an internal one. There's absolutely NO REASON why DDR couldn't feature another NAOKI track, and it wouldn't even read "Bemani Sound Team NAOKI" under it... unless he were to do that for posterity's sake or to make fun of that.
B8U
/TheArtistFormerlyUnknownAsBemaniSoundTeamNAOKI
@@TonyTheTGR Speculatively, there could be emotional reasons as to why there haven't been any NAOKI tracks in modern DDR. He left the team somewhere around the X era and almost entirely stopped appearing after X3 vs 2nd mix. I haven't heard of any new tracks by him that aren't ports or crossovers during the current A era.
@@VideoGameStarChannelSupreme KONAMI themselves went on a big producer killing spree around then. It wasn't just NAOKI that got "retired" - they kicked Hideo Kojima, Akira Yamaoka, and Iga Kogarashi to the curb as well (hence at least two of the three latter ones going indie).
Lately there seems to be some comearound to production values and whether or not this makes a difference remains to be seen. I mean, they once sued NIGORO for accidentally covering a MSX track (it was supposed to be a tribute track, not a note-for-note plagarism)... and NOW they're literally contracting them to produce a new Maze of Gallious (the game that mainly inspired La Mulana in the first place!) - and you can see good blood between them and the Dead Cells team which I think coproduced the new Getsu FumaDen game (which is quite similar) in exchange for featuring the Castlevania DLC on their own game.
There's a different vibe check today for sure.
Camellia (artist) makes some really catchy speedcore tunes with "balls-to-the-wall" BPMs. One of those songs could easily make it as a Lv 20 boss song in DDR A3.
Well he just made a 19 recently.
before watching video: yeah it's called Endymion Doubles Challenge
okay now i'll watch the video and see if you decided to call out my smartass comment a minute in
There happened to be one song that reached the 20th level on the difficulty scale overall. And it's Divine Strike CSP from DDR XX pack.
Knowing Konami, They'd need to crank out a couple before they made some that were actually good (IMO Lachryma and Max 360 are still the best made 19s). You probably couldn't make a Lv. 20 without giving it stupidly crazier gimmicks than Valkyrie Dimension's INSANE speedup, or OTP's MASSIVE fluctuations. OR just actually embrace bracketing / Footswitch tech instead of just peppering in little bits and pieces of it. One thing I've ALWAYS liked Pump for over DDR is that while they have their own boss songs which both have High end charts and mid level ones that are unusually hard for the level they're posted at (1949/50, Desparecer, Gargoyle, Prime Time, Ultimatum, Gloria, Paradoxx). They don't just have these sweeping epic or intimidating sounding songs as higher level stuff. They're willing to experiment and have totally weird and silly sounding songs have these INSANE charts because they're incredibly flexible with the types of tech they're willing to implement (MopeMope s23, Love Scenario s17, Mr. Larpus s20, Native s20, Top City s20). Granted this is also because the speed options are FAR more flexible than in DDR but that's moreso down to Konami's inherently limiting design. To wrap around back to the initial question, I think eventually DDR will get a 20 (although it probably won't be very good), but they would seriously need to look at how the modern 4 panel scene charts 14/15 footer material in order to have a baseline for how to make a QUALITY 20.
4:03 This is actually so true, I'm sure that Yuisin's suffering never ends in the comment section
DDR XX had already created a CSP 20 song called “Divine Strike”, but I doubt it would count.
I think we might need a few more 19s before we get an actual 20. But I'm gonna be honest, I would not put it past them to make a 20.
XX Starlight has proven you can make a functional 20 (even if it's a little too ballistic for me), but I don't know if konami would be willing to look at what fans are up to try and get inspiration from.
There's only seven level 19 charts right now. And they're so hard that most players can barely even clear them, let alone score well on them.
We don't need a 20 yet.
I hear you, but isn't this the longest DDR has gone without a new difficulty? Even pretending it ever made sense for Max 300 and Pluto Relinquish to be the "same" difficulty. Just checked and Valkyrie Dimension was fully unlocked on February 23 __2011__. It's already been AAA'd, and Egoism has been PFC'd. I personally think it is time.
I would like a 20
It doesn't have to be that more brutal than Endymion/Lachryma, it just has to set the floor for 20s.
Although I would agree it'd be better to have more 19s unless you want a PIU scenario where you have few 19s and one or two 20s and you can actually count the people who have passed them.
@@VideoGameStarChannelSupreme I haven't kept up with PiU, how hard are their top end songs compared to DDR?
@@eiyukabe 28s are the highest it goes and most of the 28s in the game have a single digit amount of unique clears. Pump is a way more clear focused game though so it makes way more sense to have far hardest charts compared to DDR which is a more accuracy and consistency focused game
What an interesting discussion! I never expected such depth with regard to responding to said question.
That being said, here are my thoughts:
1) It seems like DDR won't introduce a new difficulty due to the last time being already more than 10 years ago.
2) The discussion on difficulty delineation between 17s and 18s was interesting because it reminds us why DDR X changed the difficulty rating system in the first place - due to a lack of delineation as well. The possibility of spreading 17s and 18s to 17-19s seems to fit the bill here, or perhaps suggest to a revamp of the difficulty system again.
At 12:11 when you say "This video should get taken down" the youtube like button actually got highlighted LMAO
Late, but... I agree with you! I think they should rerate songs like Endymion, Lachryma, Max 360, etc. as 20s after they finally release their actual "end boss" songs, even if it's just to flesh out the mythical 20s folder.
I think the main thing with a 20 would be if it's the first 20 most of it's gimmicks should be commonplace in a lot of charts and should just be there to add flair. At that level slowdowns and laterals aren't even gimmicks anymore and the stops/shock arrow usage for the first 20 should probably be like less than 2 or 3 a piece if any (mainly for flair not inflating difficulty).
An artist I think you could put top 3 for "evil boss song sound" would be Hommarju and some of his songs are begging for CSP (although 20 should be original).
The unlock even needs to be extremely hype though, maybe torture people by making it a 5th song you play after Kaiden AA+?
I personally loved the grind to pass ZETA CSP exclusively in the course trial in A20, although I know I'd score better if the chart was isolated it just felt special.
Bi had an insane jackhammer stretch. Wanna make a level 20 April Fools Joke? Make a jackhammer jump stream. 😅
the 20 will be camellia + nanahira
I predict that if theres going to be a 20, itll be a collab between U1 and another DDR mainstay conposer. Sota F, most likely, or even LED.
This is super fun video ❤
it's been nearly 13 years since we recieved the first 19.
the jump from 15 to 16 took 2 years. then 16 to 18 was 4 years. then 18 to 19 was another 4 years. we are now at 12-13 years and waiting for a 20. i think we're ready for one, finally.
ENDYMION is soley a 19 and a hard 19 at that but it can be made more difficult and that's why it remains a 19.
DON"T push a song beyond 2:10 seconds just for difficullty purposes.
personally when we get a 20, it should be no less then 460bpm (230bpm) but more likely a 500bpm (250BPM) song with harsher patterns then ENDYMION.
It's gotta be a "you might be able to pass a 19 but your sure as hell not touching a 20" situation. like a Voltississimo ESP to max 360 CSP difference.
i also hope it doesn't rely on a new gimmick to make the 20 and instead leave it for an A4A's type situation again.
here's hoping for a REPLICANT style ES system again in the future though
This may be off base, but lately I've added DJ Totto to the people I think could have the first 20 or next 19. They seem to really like him in A3 (especially recently) and his songs tend to be high bpm with fast streams, slowdowns, etc. It'd certainly be a departure from the style of classic ddr boss songs, but one that i could maybe see them taking if they had him make a song that was a bit darker/harder style compared to his usual.
6:57 They brought back BABY-LON for BABY-LON'S GALAXY, as well as a three-credit start to pay to speed up the unlocks and a stupidly hard boss song *FEFEMZ* couldn't clear until they lowered the gauge requirement.
Said boss song is still a 19 lol
It would be a Doubles chart.
In Pump, the highest level for Singles is S26, and for Doubles is D28, so you can imagine what I'm trying to say.
4:23 this frame is worth its own video
I was surprised they didn’t make MAX 360 the first 20
I can't wait for Endymion 2 Survivor Max Dirty B4-ZA Beat Angelic Perfect Sphere Mix Groove Voltage SMM-X Special
Edit: But in all seriousness great video keep up the good work!!
Tatsuya Iyama (as Max Maximizer) might be a good option for the first 20 -- he's only had one song debut on DDR so far, and that was as Qrispy Joybox, so it could be a worthy challenge for him. On top of that, with RB and Beatstream being effectively dead, he hasn't really had a home, so it would be reasonable to put him on DDR. U1 will most likely be involved though.
But more importantly, and hear me out here: once the first 20 is released, the floor will finally be open for Homeneko Sensation CSP/CDP 20.
Awesome video.
4:22
The problem is that this would echo down the entire difficulty scale, and with so many charts finding out where everything goes might be a pain.
Hell, due to its 8th note jacks, fuckin’ Lesson By DJ might become a 2, who knows.
Though if it upgrades The Legend of Max to a 16, fine by me.
But what would be the new entry-level whatevers?
I can definitely see Elemental Creation DSP becoming an entry 15, but I don’t see the same for Pluto or Chaos. Those songs are gimmicky as shit, sure, but do gimmicks still hold the same weight in difficulty affecting in Daniel’s expanded 20-point scale? If Onyx and Mirai da Future become more definitive 14s and 15s, what will the next target of contention be?
Now that bemani pro league is about to happen, I think we have a good chance of getting another 19 or a 20. Maybe they'll do a super cool unlock event after the season is over
Fuckn hope not
at least we just got another 19
Well yes i wonder what a ddr 20 will be, ive been on the side of "please no official ddr 20s" for reasons like divine strike from starlight or any other user made 20. Even if well designed, it being hard makes it not fun most of the time. I can see a world where someone / konami makes a good 20, but my vison of a good 20 is more itg style steps. (Starlight has good 19s though i just dont like divine strike chart wise lol)
I'm surprised that the artist you picked doesn't include Camellia, because Camellia is like the staple boss song generator out there. Stuff like from the Xronial Xero album fits the bill really well into how serious DDR boss songs are. Also the hype it creates if Camellia really did create the first 20 in DDR would affect other rhythm game's fanbase as well because it's a widely known name.
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I would expand a bit on your opinion that is "ENDYMION could be the easy 20, and other songs can get a rerate especially on 17-19 scale". I do think ENDYMION fits the bill as a 20, but there's just a few charts that are closing in to ENDYMION that I think KONAMI is ironing this out. Lachryma and OTP does fit being the hard 19 if ENDYMION does rerated as a 20. But that's only two of the few. Maybe VOLAQUAS, if they planned to add a CSP for it. Ironing the level range does increase the number of 19s, but the gap between these 19s and ENDYMION is still far. If they did plan to add more 19s that are hard, I think we could expect more SDVX boss songs to cross into DDR as it's the easier way to polish the difficulty gaps between 19s and ENDYMION if it does rerated into 20.
I also do think that KONAMI is kind of afraid making it too much harder than it should be. There is a case in other popular rhythm game as well that's similar to this, namely CHUNITHM and maimai. In CHUNITHM, there's a song called Ikazuchi. Its MASTER difficulty was rated 13+ and became the first Lv13+. However it was too hard that when the difficulty range expanded into 14, this chart got rerated into 14 and subsequently making it into the first Lv14. Then it got rerated into Lv15 when the range expanded into 15. Another SEGA game, maimai introduces PANDORA PARADOXXX as the first 14. But when the range expanded into 15, it is also rerated as Lv15 and currently stands as the only Lv15 in the game.
The case with CHUNITHM and maimai I think plays a significant role in influencing KONAMI on their way to create the new 20. What if it was too hard, and they need to expand into a 30-level range where this new 20 is rated 21 or 22? If that's the case, even ENDYMION is not enough as a stepping stone to properly play that chart.
TL;DR: Yes, I think DDR will eventually get a proper 20, but they need to iron out the gap in the 19 sections first. And they most likely don't want it to be three times harder than ENDYMION and need to expand the rating range again.
If I’m not mistaken Konami and Hardcore Tano*C aren’t on good terms, so I doubt it’d be Camellia
@@itspim-tk8ow Camellia is just a guest contributor in Tano*C, not mainstays like topazo, aran, Laur, etc.
Also Camellia is very much an active contributor in BEMANI. He has songs in IIDX 30, licensed album songs in jubeat ave. a few months ago, and just made a remix of Lindwurm in Dancerush a few weeks ago.
@@megative-music I stand corrected
Great video. Good job.
I wonder if they'll add a 20 in the next DDR version after A3 is completely released everywhere
To me the first step to a 20 is filling out the 19s more, and the first step to *that* is filling out the hardest 18s more to make a bridge to the 19s... which BEMANI is already doing. I don't know if they'll ever have the balls to make the 20 and you'll right they'll probably fuck it up. But goddammit I've been waiting for this thing for 10+ years. I don't care if I'll never play it. I want my 20!
I don't think the shock arrow thing or the remix is very likely. They mostly stopped doing that stuff a while ago.
I'm sure Konami has been discussing this for a while. Either it'll be a fucking brutal stream, or a gimmicky clusterfuck
i liked your chart at 1:42 :)
I know that a 20 is possible to play, I mean, look at the ITG stamina community.
As much as we want a 20, regardless of whatever it may be or how passable it is, it's not going to happen until we get a 19 pfc, or 19s are regularly appearing in competitions. I don't think that DDRs best has reached a high enough skill for Konami to decide it's worth making a 20.
Additionally, not only are there barely any 19s (meaning it's a huge leap to make a 20 already) but I've always felt that 18s were the endgame, and 19s were merely over the top overcharted challenge rewards for those who dare glance the wrong way at them.
How about Konami Treat Naoki right this time and bring him back for the first level 20... I mean he wrote the first 10, so let's do it.
THE SAFARI has been the boss song for 20 years and 冥 has been the kaiden boss song since they then... I really wonder which change they'll make, a ddr 20 or THE SAFARI is no longer 7th boss LMAO
I propose this: 2 minutes of 230bpm stream.
115 @ 230 is an ITG 20. Make it a DDR 20 as well because we can pretend Konami never got rid of the old scale.
MAX 360 exists, so Konami has no qualms with cheesing stamina to get high rated charts.
Imo, having charted several 19s and 20s (both good, bad and awful), it's not too hard to make a 20 if it's anywhere above 200 BPM.
The issue is quality and whether it can hold it's own when more 20s and 19s appear. Quantum Sea Lindwurm is already putting the 18 and 19 borders to the test because it is simply so brutal it's almost a keyboard chart to be played on pad and compared to the low end of 19s somewhat (Paranoia Revolution Challenge, Egoism maybe but that's harder, Max 360 hell no).
And as for quality, I don't have beef with any of the 19s but I know the community likes their dose of easy charts and have them called "18." (Look at the difference between Scarlet Police CSP and DEGRS and how they're treated in the community. People cheer the former despite being absurdly easy for an 18 while people shit on anything that's either too gimmicky, has shock arrows or is a clone of DEGRS (Shakunetsu BSB CSP, Reiwa CSP).
From the charts I've made, I can name a few that I can solidly like and are good enough to be a 20 (of which appear in the stream I made launching ECS Update 3) - Speedcore Cannon CSP, Dement ~After Legend~ CSP, Freedom Dive CSP, but as I can barely handle 18s on Stepmania (due to harsher life difficulty when compared to DDR) and haven't cleared a 19 on arcade yet, I've yet to run these charts as intended and only have visual calculations and keyboard play.
Now, if you want start the discussion of how high we can go, ITG and SMX already have you covered on that department, and the video already shows an ITG 27 stream chart being performed. It's definitely possible to have something beyond 20 or even 25, but the odds of people passing those charts are low.
14:23 Uh la la la flashback
Pluto The Second bSP8 BSP12 DSP15 ESP18 CSP20
And......... MAX 300 Has A BPM Of 400
As someome stated, Bemani should follow the way of Lachryma, for example with the release of Hou in Dddr A3, the bpms don't make sense, it has no real rhytmn. Long gone are the days of really cool sounding boss songs, but nowadays all seem to sound robotic nom human like beat dropping songs.
I'm of the Chris Chike Theory (tm) that 19s should be *reclassified* as 20s, and 18s should be split into 18-19s.
We're only up to like, SEVEN of the current 19s (??) and they're really only ever scored by less than one tenth of a percent of the playerbase (IE: Tournament finalists almost exclusively), who are ALREADY an island amongst players so the audience for a level 20 isn't any sigificantly different. Plus, anyone THAT masochistic is already outdoing Komama in Stepmania anyhow. (points to Dragonforce and Pendulum Pack players)
So, long story short is NO, there is no reason for higher difficulty when there's much more *breadth* to be explored in the existing range - especially when the player's fun/performance peaks between 16 and 17 anyhow. If anything, I think we'll see more of THOSE as Expert charts, and more 18s on Challenge until players are reasonably performing on a wider variety of those, which appears to be the currently explored "breadth" difficulty anyhow. And if you look at the quality of those, they've improved quite significantly between SuperNOVA2 and X's cringe charts and DDR A's magnificent ones. We just have a lot of COVID rust to shake off getting back to that level, first.
But, no... if you're GOING to go SO FAR to make a NEW DIFFICULTY CLASSIFICATION, 480 BPM ain't it. But hear me out...
555.5 BPM
And how have you NOT mentioned DJ TECHNORCH or L.E.D. LIGHT-G?
I’m just saying, put horror, Creepy Vocaloid songs like “Kagome Kagome”, “Happy Song”, anything from the artist “Masa Works Design”, “Unknown Mother Goose”, “Bacterial Contamination”, Ect. I’m trying to create the charts, but they exceeded Lv. 23 sometimes.
As a non-DDR person. What if the limiting factor in song difficulty is the hardware, not the player. I'm don't think they designed the machines thinking of songs would get to the speed or difficulty that would be a level 20.
The best players in the world still can't pfc most of the 19s so I think that's why
Hey, why don't you download a PS1 and PS2 emulator to play Dance Dance Revolution, I use an emulator to play DDR
They just give you reasons to switch to itg the very game they tried to shut down
There better be. 19s are pushing the limit to the point where they should be considered 20s.
Looool
ENDImiON IS A 20
Endymion CSP should not be a 20.
Endymion CDP and Egoism 440 CDP though...