Shoutout Nykareem your hate is greatly appreciated by me. Also I am FULLY aware that promoting superstars and storylines gets the most views and money. I DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE NBA'S PROFIT MARGINS. I care about good basketball being spotlighted and i dont care constantly bashing the product and not showcasing the talent around the league is stupid to me. The game should be about BASKETBALL not about villains and heroes and profits. I will probably be a terrible commissioner for business but i guarantee the sanctity of the game of basketball will be restored. W kings media cartel at the end
@MarzTalksSports btw marz i agree that amen is better than dyson now because we had are worst defensive first half against grizzles because of dyson helping off way too much against desmond bane who would shoot or just attack pass for wide open three.
a lot of people said what Marz said doesnt work but as Chill said. Pushing Multiple Stars is exactly what the NFL does. They've done it for a while and are currently having their best ratings ever. Because they push multiple stars AND they push good and the most valuable teams. KC. Baltimore. Buffalo. Cincinnati are some of the most talked about NFL Teams while being some of the least valuable teams. Because if you focus on pushing good/entertaining teams people will get interested in them. Because the big markets will push themselves. Meanwhile in the NBA teams like Memphis and Orlando dont get many Primetime Games. Even OKC isnt top 10 in most Primetime Games. Again we can clearly see the model does work. Dont say its not a North American Model when the sport dominating North America is doing it with that Model. Plus when you do it like the NFL does it you dont have to make the narratives. They make themselves all you gotta do is push them.
It is nuts that the Packers, based in Wisconsin, has the dedicated, well-covered fanbase that they do but Milwaukee Bucks located in the same state is considered a hopelessly small market that every superstar worth their salt should be hurried out of. I largely agree with your point, but simultaneously, it may be that it may be too late to start "pushing multiple stars" as a way to solve the NBA's problems. The NFL dominates the lion's share of attention as they have for close to a century. The team-over-individual mentality has already long taken root throughout that timeframe, while the NBA, once a failing sports league, at every turn relied on the miraculously popular superstar to reach higher and higher highs. Now, in terms of contracts, coverage, and general structure of things, the NBA is too set on its ways, and even if changes are made, you cannot shake the NFL's share of the pie, a pie that has shrunken and shrunken with piracy, social media discourse, highlights, and new forms of entertainment (some of which are non-sports) like streaming. That is to say, you can run and cover the Bucks from 2025 onwards, like the Packers, but it will never become the Packers.
@@waikayshinyou hit it exactly on the head, saying the NBA should do what the NFL does is just not realistic and everybody knows that. NFL preaches the shield over anything.
Roger Goodell isn’t with the “woke” agenda that’s why, he still has a old school mentality on how players should appear (dress code, conduct themselves in interviews, etc) the NBA is long gone of any sort of masculinity and accountability, that’s ONE of the reasons why the ratings are down imo.
@@waikayshin I agree but I’m not saying they should turn around and push teams over stars. They’re in too deep to make that change plus the NFL can do that because of how big teams NBA can’t. But pushing more stars. Pushing more good/up and coming teams. Letting narratives push themselves are all things the NBA can currently do. I’m not saying emulate the NFL 1:1. That’s just impossible. But there are things the NFL is doing that the NBA can do. So you don’t have to cover the Packers like the Bucks. But you can cover teams like Memphis. Houston. Orlando better.
It is a little wild to me that the very people who idealize and reminisce about the purity, authenticity, and physicality of old school hoops are the quickest to defend the very market mechanisms that took away those qualities under the guise of "business" and "practicality". IT is precisely this profit-driven, permanent growth mindset that has turned youth hoops into an expensive, joyless pressure cooker rivaling that of kids starting classical music at the age of 5, AAU into an unserious clipfarm, and the G league into a dated reference. Appealing to casual viewers is exactly what took away the 2000s defense that everyone in the PC community apparently adores. It also vindicates LeBron's decision to join Miami and KD"s choice to join the Warriors, two decisions we apparently hate, but was responsible for the 2010s outperforming both the 2000s and the 2020s in terms of the all-so precious ratings. It's what moved the Warriors away from the best crowd of all time to a city whose arenas are full of techbros and entrepeneurs. It's what drives up ticket costs and makes it prohibitively expensive for working class people and poorer from attending games/pursuing hoops - which in turn in parallel encourages nepotism, another thing we pretend to hate. And to rely on superstars to this degree is to ensure that future stars will also be 'spoiled' and 'entitled' as people would like to say they are today, and that the league and its media will do EVERYTHING in their power to move prospective stars into Los Angeles, New York, and Boston. After all, if superstars sustain the league over everything else, why wouldn't you load manage? Why wouldn't you cater to their whims? Pen argues throughout the video as if the is a marketer, and cites other entertainment industries and their practices. Others in the chat argue that this is the "American" way of doing things. This way of doing things have ruined mainstream film, video games, RUclips, literature, and the arts, and the NBA is no exception. By trying to be 'casual,' you minimize friction, maximize inauthenticity, cater to rich, prospective investors, neglect the local, the poor, and the marginalized, and slowly degenerate the substance that made you appealing in the first place. By trying to appeal to everyone, you appeal to no one. The mindset of permanent growth destines you for slop, and the viewers, instead of feeling catered to, will move on to new forms of entertainment that have not been ruined by the profit motive just yet.
Asking players to be themselves and not be PC, incentivizing less buddy-buddy BS, bringing back physical play and emotion to the game is actually the opposite of playing it safe with the marketers. I'm not trying to restore the NBA to it's glory days. I'm saying the NBA needs to stop killing it's best storylines. And I'm trying to speak in a language that the NBA understands: viewership and ratings
@@pensarebasketball stay on topic,the crux of your debate with mars is that the nba should mostly market superstars in bigger markets and not small market teams which is indeed absolutely playing it safe.
@@pensarebasketball What I'm saying is that speaking that language (and the NBA is monolingual) is entirely contrary to the un-PC, hostile, physical, emotional play that you obviously would like to see return to the league. Yes, it is the opposite of playing it safe with the marketers - that is why it's gone. If anything, the NBA might need this moment of parity and degrowth to reconsider its needs. For example, the NFL, despite its cultural dominance, is actually not a growth model. It merely dominates American sports, and it seeks nothing beyond that. It's not trying to expand itself to the casual markets of Europe and Asia and Africa. It sustains the strong, local fanbases it has. Marz's ideas today might seem idealistic, but it is ironically the practical holding action that reorients the business model of the NBA from seeking higher and higher dosages of the superstar drug. Cultivate smaller markets with a parity of coverage that matches the parity of competition, and thereby preparing yourself to laser focus coverage once the superstar that checks all the boxes (let's not argue which boxes they are) emerges - wherever he emerges, whoever he may be. The NBA has enough capital and a bedrock fanbase to afford this slowdown, and to be fair, in the age of streaming, it's not even certain if plummeting "TV ratings" is the accurate/adequate measure of plummeting popularity. But the fact that there is this longstanding panic to me signifies an administration-wide insecurity, one that foolishly seems addicted to growth and expansion at the expense of everything else.
@@pensarebasketball The players saw what happened to Kyrie when he was outspoken. I don't blame them for shutting up and dribbling. They even tried to kick Dillon Brooks out of the league for calling Bron old and Rus is on a minimum because of the narratives they pushed. The media doesn't care about the players or the sport.
I find it crazy how Pen keeps referencing the WWE when objectively their most successful era is the current era and the WWE rn is constantly promoting their abundance of stars while also putting a constant spotlight on alot of their upcoming talent, like what Marz wants the NBA to do
@MarzTalksSports Even his point about the Attitude Era being "Built on one guy"(referring to Stone Cold Steve Austin) isn't true because the WWE at the time was also heavily invested in wrestlers like Undertaker, Triple H, Shawn Michaels, Degeneration-X, The Rock, Razor Ramon, Mick Foley, etc. Hell Raw didn't beat WCW in the Monday Night Wars(ratings war between the 2 companies) until they went hard into promoting more people and gave Mick Foley the WWF title. And WCW Nitro's ratings were dropping SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE it was very heliocentric on Hulk Hogan and the NWO. Even in the 2000s, WWE still saw alot of success promoting an abundance of stars(Brock Lesnar, John Cena, Eddie, Batista, Randy Orton, etc). And for the cherry on top, the reason WWE fell off hard throughout the 2010s is because they tried to hard promote singular people, first John Cena then Roman Reigns TL;DR: Pen is tripping
@MarzTalksSports (idk if my first reply actually sent or not but if it did, ignore this) Its even crazier cause his "The Attitude Era was built on the back of one man"(referring to Stone Cold Steve Austin) just isnt true. It was built off the back him AND Vince, The Rock, Triple H, Shawn Michaels, Degeneration X, Mick Foley, Undertaker, etc. Infact, WWE's main competition at the time, WCW, faded out BECAUSE of the fact that WCW relied too heavily on Hulk Hogan and the NWO Even in the 2000s, the WWE still relied on their collective abundance of stars and rising talent, like the 2002 OVW class and the Smackdown Six. The WWE only fell off during the 2010s SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE they relied way to much on singular stars like John Cena, and then Roman Reigns So TL;DR: Pen trippin
The Attitude Era was built on 1 person; Vince McMahon. His feud with Bret opened the gates to his subsequent feud with Stone Cold, which built up the entire attitude era. If you think Shawn, HHH, Chyna, The Rock, Taker, Kane, Bret, Mankind, Owen were a part of it, yes. They were. But the authenticity of the Montreal Screw Job and the WCW DOING NOTHING with Bret in the fallout of that due to Hogan's ego and Bischoff's mismanagement is what created the downfall of WCW and ushered in the success of the WWF rising again in a ratings war they were losing... Losing because the WCW edged them on storytelling with the Outsiders and the NWO. The 2 big mistakes the WCW made during that time was the Sting-Hogan Starcade match that flopped after a year of buildup and the Goldberg thing. You're arguing in circles with someone who has inhaled every book on wrestling business every written. It's a huge part of my understanding of story structure. If you break down any majorly successful movie franchise, despite the noise of 57 characters, there is a main story, a main plot. The league needs a face. It needs A GUY. A guy everyone loves and everyone hates, a guy everyone wants to watch. There can be 100 other characters, but everyone needs a dog in the race. My star in the 90s vs. THE STAR of the 90s.. If I'm a Portland fan that star is Clyde, if I'm a NY fan it's Ewing, if I'm a Seattle fan it's Payton, if I'm a Magic fan, it's Shaq. And I watch my star try to take down THE star. If I'm a Knicks, Pacers, Pistons, Lakers fan, Jordan is the foe. Reggie, Isaiah and Magic are my heroes in the story. Vince became the villain so everyone became a hero against him. It felt relatable (we all have a boss we don't like, a parent who's always coming down on us). The larger point is, players become avatars for our psyche. Jordan. You either wanted to be like him, or you hated him. His journey became THE journey. Allen Iverson, Kobe Bryant came as close as anyone to mimicking that me vs. the world dynamic. Steph as well. Jokić and Giannis aren't AS relatable if we think of them as avatars. Nor is Wemby. The most optimal face of the league candidate right now honestly is Anthony Edwards. Rant over
Having one face of the NBA is the reason why they’re in the spot they’re in now. Haven’t y’all seen whst always pushing LeBron at the front has done for the league? It minimizes exposure for all of the other great players in the game. Even when MJ was large, the league did a great job at giving back stories with other players and teams keeping them relevant. Nowadays everything is a hot take and the spotlight isn’t widespread how it used to be. Big players up to the point where they think they’re bigger than the league.
LeBron was built up to pass the torch. To borrow a wrestling term, it's called "putting someone over" on your way out. If a still in his prime LeBron exiting his prime met Tatum or Luka in the finals, that could help them the way facing LeBron in 2014 helped Kawhi. Kawhi wasn't a star. He fed off of LeBron.
@ I can see how he was built up to pass the torch and to some degree I understand why it was done but the problem is they didn’t do a good job of making sure that the ones who are getting the torch passed to them have enough exposure so it makes it hard to pass the torch with such huge “what if’s”… It worked for Kawhi because for the most part the media wasn’t stuck in the LeBron glaze the way it is now. It’s way worse than it’s ever been the last 3-5 seasons. 2014 was still a time when narrative based arguments really start to shape mainstream Sports media so Kawhi was able to come out on top… now, Every day they talk about LeBron no matter what he does and that has hurt them more than anything… it’s cool to want to build him up but they forgot about what’s next because 1, he gave off the energy like he’d be around forever just by playing so many years healthy etc and 2, LeBron is a cash cow. So talking about him will bring viewers and viewers bring revenue so why not talk about him all the time? They settled with LeBron because the recipe for success has become so simplified with him and in return they’re still stuck in time and abandoned forward thinking…. So many players are greats and LeBron is a top 5 player of all time but between ESPN and CLUTCH we have been fed a constant diet of Lebron and told everybody else isn’t good enough for the crown when that’s just not the case!! Especially when you consider LeBron has let multiple superstars get rings on his watch! He made it easier for them to stop being creative and it had backfired tremendously…
The best players are international, and most are boringly mature The most viewed are aging out The league needs crash outs to win a chip. U need a couple on the squad for entertainment
@@Sacredix they say luka drinks beer and out of shape every season. Are you not on Twitter and Instagram lol😭and they call him a cry baby. These are the talkin points around them, and I can see why ppl view them differently
KG would never say Jokic is better than him. He's more diplomatic nowadays but don't get it twisted. I'm sure he thought he was the best in the early 2000s. And theres nothing wrong with that.
As an nba fan, i love the nba! I've been a fan for 3-4 years and i can safely say theres no sport better than bball and nothings gonna change that. I love the amount of talent and the different talent the league has, i love how it was played and is played right now, i just love the game. The problem i have os how casuals view the game and respectfully, most media members are casuals, especially chuck snd shaq, they're actually disgustingly bad for bball. Have they said anything positive about the new generation other than Gianni's, ant, and joker? I dont think its a bball problem and i hope they dont change the game. W panel and w episode today ngl.
People can say “fans should do xyz” until the cows come home but that doesn’t take away from what the facts are Casual fans aren’t basketball purists that’s just a fact…. When you expand a business built on ENTERTAINMENT (because that’s the entire point) the largest part of the audience will always be casual fans point blank period. It’s highly unrealistic to ask casual fans to watch based solely on basketball. That’s where the story telling aspect comes in. There has to be more than just basketball. The reality is professional athletes being the best in the world isn’t enough. The reason the tv deals and whatnot are so high is because casual fans tuned in. Purists will find the game wherever it goes. The Bulls have damn near the highest jersey sales overseas…. Because of the product? No. On top of that sometimes casual fans won’t turn into more than that but if you’re worried about the numbers then you HAVE to cater to the casual fan that’s a fact. Then there’s the issue of representation. Casual fans who are American want to root for Americans because people want to have something to identify with. With the lack of story telling people don’t know anything about these players other than surface level things (nationality, race, etc). People want to relate. So give them something to relate to. Give them something to root for. You can’t call a casual fan stupid just cuz they don’t love the same things you do. THAT’S stupid. Everybody on the planet has casual interests… the issue is the marketing because casual fans of anything, if left to their own devices, are just less likely to dig deeper or pay more attention to nuance.
I think marz saying pushing good basketball helps but the league clearly isn’t interested in that What’s clear is that these industries just get money hungry and only care about the bottom line. If you ask me I think people are waking up to that fact and taking a stand against putting money in these peoples pockets. Even if it’s only a little.
Another point is if you look at something like the Olympics the marketing becomes easy “It’s us vs them” People know what and who to root for and they only really care about the jersey you got on. Make it easier for fans to know who they wanna root for. Purists will generally understand the game more than casuals will so they know what they wanna root for. The middle man for understanding becomes the media so they have a responsibility to make the game more digestible to someone who may not know what they’re looking at.
@@SeeingShadows one exception? So the nba is riddled with an excuse thats proven to not be true with the nfl and other sports booming. But its only applied to the nba? So the style of play dont matter? Refs being ass dont matter? Players missing important games and going on tv telling us they aint playing? None of that matters
Pen was entirely right. Marz was entirely naive. And as a side tangent, Narrative doesn't necessarily equate to negativity. Narrative is friction. Narrative is dramatics. Narrative is overcoming obstacles. Narrative doesn't have to be a bad thing
@@itszaaaamzeh From a business standpoint i acknowledge my perspective isnt the profitable one. I dont know how many times i had to make the clear,seems like i was having a different conversation which is fine i shouldve stayed on topic. I dont think i was naive since i made it clear i was aware of why it wouldnt happen the way i said it should. moreso just disappointed that thats how it is
@MarzTalksSports not just a business standpoint. From an ideological culture growth standpoint, your suggestion is antithetical with reality. culture is built from economics not the other way around. People don't become politically radicalized if they're rich their whole life. People don't seek religion when they're content. The draw to everything is always the story behind it. it can be a good thing.
@ I think the 'story' should be basketball. not manufactured drama. the story should be about the game,it very rarely is in the nba. im fine with stories attracting the masses. when those stories arent even about basketball i think thats dumb
There are several issues with today's game. I don't think you can pinpoint one. Some up on the panel were saying that because of former players and analysts disparaging the game, its deterring the casual fan. I think its the opposite. The game is actually geared towards bringing in the casual fan with the promotion of 3s and dunks. This is why they have softened the rules. I think its deterring the hardcore fan, the basketball purists who WILL religiously watch all 82 games and not miss a minute. While the casual fan will watch it... casually. Whenever they have nothing else going on. So while its broadened the overall fan base, the game itself has been watered down for entertainment purposes. In doing so certain elements of what made basketball worth watching for the hardcore fan have been eradicated. These guys are too buddy-buddy now. Sure guys were cool back then to a degree but not to the level of today where guys who just battled in the playoffs are attending each others weddings. It almost becomes a conflict of interest when you have more comradery with a guy on another team than your own teammate. I hear NBA veterans talk about NBA locker rooms then vs now. Back then those guys would build trust and rapport with their teammates off the court by having team events and functions. Now its every guy for himself and his brand. That affects the product because it limits team continuity and rivalries which then results in constant player movement. It becomes a vicious cycle.
I know I won't get comment of the week because PC and it's members don't like to be held accountable, but this has to be said. I know y'all won't read it though anyway. Everything that Luka gets criticized for, Julius Randle does the same thing, but he doesn't get any criticism from those same people. In fact, I've heard those same people say Julius is a good defender and were reluctant to call him bad even when Marz called out his flaws. Everytime Marz brings up a mistake Julius makes, the first response is, "but Naz Reid" or "what about Conley", it's always deflection and bringing up someone else instead of holding Julius accountable. But, for some reason whenever it's Luka, there's a 7 minute rant about everything he does terribly, meanwhile nobody brings up Kyrie Irving sitting right next to him. Luka isn't even the worst defender in the starting lineup, yet he gets blamed for everything, he doesn't get the "he's not the only one" bail out that Julius gets Now, when me or other people in the comments say that there is an obvious level of bias/favoritism happening here, it's always met with retaliation, rather than understanding, and the people we criticize get defensive and reflect all the blame on us, instead of just thinking for one second, just one short moment, maybe, just maybe, they could be in the wrong, but obviously that will never happen, because ignorance and arrogance exist in harmony. When will Chill (and Bob sometimes) get past their own delusion and recognize when they act this way? They had a 20 minute discussion about why the NBA product is bad, but never once thought to say, "maybe my way of thinking is also hurting the product". But, what do I know? Obviously, I'm just a goofy, I'm a hater, I never played ball, I could never have the intelligence to understand or even refute what these basketball scientist say, I should just shut up and watch or shut up and don't.
Angel is hated by mostly wm. Besides that she is well liked. The best thing Clark did was distance herself from any animosity towards Angel. The W has a lot of interesting players. The matchups should be the focus not smear campaigns on a "villain player" from casual fans who Stan one player.
Again, you might not like it. And I agree with you… but that helps that league in a messed up way. Some people hated Angel cause she trash. And I’m not a wm. She’s just bad. But I’d tune in just to hate. And that helps
We’ve officially reached the enshitification of basketball. It’s frustrating how the panel keeps insisting the on-court product is “great” when it’s clearly not. The glaring difference between NBA Cup games and regular-season games says it all-we’re being robbed of the quality basketball we deserve. That’s enshitification. Guys like Len and Larz constantly push this narrative that today’s players are “more athletic, more skilled, and just better” without ever acknowledging how weak the officiating is compared to 10-15 years ago. It’s never been easier to average 30 ppl. That’s enshitification. The fact that LeBron, KD, Steph, Harden, and other greats are dominating well into their mid-to-late 30s is proof of how much easier and less physical the game has become. What used to be a gritty, demanding sport is now overly sanitized and robotic, thanks to Adam Silver. That’s enshitification. Silver has corporatized the game to the point where even the players seem disconnected from their own craft. They’ve turned into corporate drones, overly calculated and out of touch with the fans. Meanwhile, working-class people have been priced out entirely-basketball is just another thing to watch on a screen now, far removed from its roots. That’s enshitification. And the guys who aren’t so corporate just aren’t good enough (Ant, Ja, Zion) and just come off as immature little boys. If Adam Silver had any respect for the game, he’d step down. And if Marz cared about basketball, he’d quit his job as a panelist. Together, they’ve enshitified the sport we love.
Glad Mars stopped the tap dancing around the “problem” that was being done up until 36:31. From a business standpoint, the problem is simply the NBA’s inability to market the 2 best players on the planet because they aren’t American. Jokic and Giannis are 2 ALL TIME GREAT talents. They will both retire top 10-15 players at their current pace. They are generational players. But the reality is the NBA was built and marketed as an American product for nearly 70 years. It wasn’t until the mid 2000s to the early 2010s that we really started to a surge in European, African, and Asian talent come into the league. And here we are in the 2020s where half of the top 10 and almost all of the top 5 players in the world are from outside where the league takes place. And I want to make it clear, I couldn’t care less personally where a player is from. I think Jokic and Giannis and Luka are unreal talents and love to watch them play. I’m simply speaking for what the masses think. We can keep dancing around this “problem” and say it’s the style of the game, the gentrification of the game, the fact that there’s more access to other entertainment, etc. And some of those things are valid. But the main problem in terms of viewership is that the superstars aren’t American and the casual fan as of 2024 going into 2025 is turned off by that. Point blank period.
W comment. This why the league forcing the push for Ant to be “the face of league” isn’t working. You can’t market a top 15 player to be the face of the league when Giannis and Jokic exist. If one of them were American, they would for sure be the face of the league.
Lmaoo stop this SHID bigs are hard to market American or not… if Ja morant was from London he would still have the same fan fair because how he looks on the court … Jokic is great but is boring to most on and off the court lol . Where someone is from CAN help and CAN hurt but it’s not the end all be all .. wat u do in between those line as far as entertainment is the large portion of the pie .
U know how many ppl don’t know tht shai is from Canada ? Him being in a small market and his game/personality being boring hurts him . Kawhi 2016-2017 was a top 5-10 player in the league but he played for the spurs and haven’t came out of his shell yet.. fast forward to the raptors years hes a viral sensation and becomes “the fun guy “
@@Heemkeem_9 and when did I mention Shai? Shai is from Canada. That’s North America. Also where the game of basketball originates from. You don’t have to admit it, what’s obvious is obvious. People want an American star, preferably from the United States. But the big thing is just not true. Shaq was extremely marketable. Wilt was extremely marketable. Dwight Howard was even extremely marketable. You know who the least marketable of the all time great bigs was? Hakeem. The numbers stand prove that too. Go look at the ratings when Hakeem was dominating. Interesting..
@@Heemkeem_9 what’s boring about Giannis? He’s a very entertaining player to the casuals, or at least he should be. And also like I said I don’t really care what the novices think, Jokic does a lot that the casual won’t pick up on. But even as a causal to the game it does not take much to want to watch him. If you think he’s boring then you just don’t like basketball and aren’t the person the league should be trying to attract.
I personally don’t see a problem with the league but the main problem is “NBA media” not us who actually love basketball because I feel like there is more casuals covering and watching the game than ever before so they won’t accept and/or appreciate the game for what it is and as far as viewership it’s kind of a supply and demand thing where it’s so many games in a season the casual fan would rather look at the highlights and box scores on a Tuesday in December vs watching because they believe the season doesn’t “really start” until April which is playoff time those of us who love basketball will watch for example Portland vs Spurs on a Monday night the casual fan will not but I think the game is in great hands personally im no less locked in than I ever been
@@BlkStar99People want to find ways to complain. They would rather complain about the new generation instead of looking at the diversity of styles that exist in NBA. The Rockets are a team that every old head should love.
@MarzTalksSportspeople want to watch the Rockets lose to a star. The same way they wanted the Spurs to lose to a star, Badboy Pistons to lose to a star.. We are told stories since childhood. It's the oldest thing in the book. LeBron against the superteam Warriors.. that was a movie. Down 3-1. Just like Jordan vs. The Badboy Pistons or Celtics. People love watching the next wave get over. Iverson vs. the Lakers was inherently more interesting than the Nets or Pacers vs the Lakers because there was a David Vs. Goliath element and all the characters were in place for that. It's why people wanna see Wemby smoke Jokić and Embiid. It's just good storytelling. And when Wemby shoots 3/16 that game, the league loses. Because it's not interesting. There's nothing overly interesting about most teams in the league. Teams certainly don't play the SAME* way but there's a lack of... This team is so different. Jokić vs. the Timberwolves made the Timberwolves a viable foe for Lukas Mavs. Then we got to see Luka and Dallas go up against the Celtics so that was actually very positive. Had the series been more competitive and Luka been healthy I think a game 6 or 7 would have been amazing for ratings.
@@pensarebasketballCould you, as a movie buff, remind me of the broader consequences of Heaven's Gate after its release? Not just for its director, but for the studio and cinema as a whole. This is exactly the kind of scenario you're alluding to right now. Imagine if Michael Jordan had suffered a career-ending injury in 1990-what would have happened to the NBA? The league would have had to hedge its bets, promote other players, and develop compelling storylines to stay relevant. The same principle applies here. 4o window.__oai_logHTML?window.__oai_logHTML():window.__oai_SSR_HTML=window.__oai_SSR_HTML||Date.now();requestAnimationFrame((function(){window.__oai_logTTI?window.__oai_logTTI():window.__oai_SSR_TTI=window.__oai_SSR_TTI||Date.now()}))
NFL mainstream media does much better team of talking about a variety of teams more than the NBA does. You can see segments about the Commanders and Vikings but the NBA media is completely slient about the Rockets and Grizzlies.
@@BIGOXMedia do you care about players choice? Or having a platform with more viewers? Is all connected. Swipa wasn’t as popular before the Nuggets won that championship
@@officerricky3230 that was rude of me Rick, my bad. No such thing as a dumb question. It’s not like the NBA is gunna fold r anything like that so I’m not worried about the effect on PC.
Pen I’m proud of u this episode man …. The nba needs a rocky balboa, someone who gets into the nba in their mid to late 20s thru overseas or the gleague tryout . Hes a 6’2-6’5 guard ..55 inch vertical , Olympic speed , handsome and a YOUNG Kobe(FROBE) type of charisma .. he has to be a face(good guy) first but a face tht u might question if he’s arrogant . He 4 peats wins 2028 Olympics which will be in the United States .. hes best friends with a streaming so u get glimpses of his rated r bachelor lifestyle . Hes the guy tht athletes … rappers … streamers and film writers want to be . In this era we need someone biggger than life on and off the court .
Oh and this guy was somewhat of a bum and reject due to him still pursuing greatness well into his 20s . So I prefer hes in a semi pro league before the gleague. Playstyle would be a way more athletic Russ with kyries finesse and skill set . Hes a very philosophical… flow state type of guy .. childlike and mysterious. Hes a beacon of hope for the hopeless and a reminder of what every human is capable of in their respective field , he resets the world , restore order and balance !!
Another issue is the media only promotes one to two players for a decade the casual fan won't know who the others is because all they talk about is MJ or Bron and it started with MJ Before him they promoted teams not individuals
Need less than 82 games , nobody on a random Tuesday is gonna commit to playing tactical and slow in the half court in a grinded out game, can’t have it both ways some regular season games are literally just and intrasquad scrimmage they just running up and down shooting 3s especially if you’re actively tanking , the NBA isn’t for everyone and that okay there are other hoop leagues
Penn just said Shai was better than 2016 Curry, but crying about ratings and star power. Well if we have prime 2016 Curry in the league , that wouldnt been a issue
@@DesignzRUsShaq already pushed SGA's MVP agenda last year. Then there's the Canada vs. USA Olympics thing, SGA being a small market hero. This is how stars are built.
Man I ain’t gonna lie ever since I started watching WNBA this past season this season to me has been mid low key. For some reason I enjoyed more watching the woman’s play. And Pen is right for example I got into WNBA because of CC and my favorites players are Aja and Arike
Promoting 1-3 main guys is the reason why the league is in trouble now. When those guys fall off or retire what’s gonna happen? Viewership is gonna fall. It’s better to promote THE GAME and all of the best players instead of just the same 3 people. Marz is right, Pen was way off on this
@ that would be the case but guys play so long nowadays is hard for people to move on to the next guy paired with the fact that the league doesn’t promote the next guys either.
@@soscj thts not the problem lol if Zion was 33 ppg , 12 rebound , healthy and his team was one of the top teams in the west we wouldn’t hear tht much about curry or bron lol they would be our legacy acts …. Ja Lmaaoo he was primed to take the torch ,
Marz is also wrong, there hands down has to be a face or a model that platforms whatever business or venture you are apart of. Take this podcast for instance, I guarantee that this pod isnt made up of fans for every single one of you but rather a preference between one or the other. He talks about "spread the wealth," that also implies showing fans and viewers something that they dont want to see and forcing it upon them. This is what free market business is all about, the demand and the consumer decides who and what should be marketed. Not a referendum of inclusivity or the feel good aspect. And my question to Marz, Do you know your demographic (in regards to your basketball platform) and what they like or dislike?
W panel episode but i agree with marz completely. I think pens view is short term and not long term but some ideas can be implemented. A fee stars should be promoted and refs shouldnt be too trigger happy. I think the media members are the most at fault than the league themselves since they keep talking about the washed lakers and the washed warriors and the washed suns and how bad the league is today (im just assuming cause idgaf about the media especially charles and shaq cause they have disgusting takes). But at the same time, the rise of podcast imo are so beneficial for the game vause now i learn more about the game from channels like hoop venue, thinking bball, etc. Respectful i dont really have a league pass issue cause i dont use league pass wink wink and im happy to watch the game vause i have very limited resources and i wont spend money on shii unless i have to.
Focusing promotion primarily on the top 3-4 stars isn’t a sound business strategy. Sure, the NBA went all-in on Michael Jordan, but what if he’d suffered a career-ending injury or decided to walk away from basketball in 1989? To build a sustainable league, you have to hedge early and invest in rising talents like Scottie Barnes, Anthony Edwards, and Cade Cunningham. Not only do they deserve the spotlight, but this approach fosters a more balanced league-one with diverse, compelling personalities that create a genuine sense of competition and excitement.
The NBA invested in Barkley, Malone, Penny, Hakeem, Shaq. But those stars' stories were always against the backdrop of the mega star. So many rivalries. Jordan vs. Reggie, Jordan vs. The Pistons, Jordan beating out Magic, Bird. There were SO MANY stars in the 90s from Malone to Payton. Payton had his own shoes. Kemp was a huge deal. The difference is there was a clear arc of good vs bad and there were healthy rivalries with sustainable storylines you could invest in over the years. The second Jordan teams up with Olajuwon on the Rockets because he leaves the Bulls, it all falls apart. There was something almost cult like, religious about basketball in the 90s. The figures were clear. Malone won MVP and then faced Jordan in the finals and lost. My point is, I gotta care that Jordan was robbed. That sets the stage for the MVP to face the REAL MVP. Malone and Barkley didn't just win MVPs. They won MVPs that were (in some people's perceptions) someone else's to win.
@@pensarebasketballI get that, but you can have it AND create stories separate from the biggest star. Don't view the NBA as a single movie, it's a studio. The league is struggling for two main reasons: 1. There is no MJ - a superstar who also has an interesting personality. 2. It's hard to compete against Netflix, HBO etc. So you have to experiment and invest in wide varieties of players
Happy holidays PC community and big kudos to the entire panel! I will say this iteration here is my absolute favorite iteration of the show. As for the ratings argument, even after Pen explained his side I still don't really get it and Mars' argument just intuitively makes a whole lot more sense to me.
Preciate it your marz for talking about Cade because I watch the pistons and what Cade has done the last couple games has been great he’s taken the leap I thought he would when they got solid spacing around him
Does anyone feel like of the major American sports, that NBA viewers especially new ones skew a bit younger than the NFL,MLB (which reportedly are experiencing boosts in their ratings) and younger audiences tend to use “alternative” sites to stream games thus not contributing to official ratings?
Swipa + any prop = W episode... even had Pen laughing. The pan and spatula one was iconic. Also when that PC music album coming out? Also Marz South Africa has 3 pronged outlets too, they're just rounder.
So Marz just says at 6:30 that he wants to be able to illegally free use licensed product lmaooo. Does this guy understand how a business should be ran? Like this is all lukewarm 60 IQ takes that seems logical but in reality is rooted in stupidity with 0 knowledge about how to run a business lmao. But i guess a podcast to you is that comparison. Yall are funny af
It wasnt illegal lol. they got taken down because some clown decided to try and monetize one website and he ruined it for everyone. (information i wasnt aware of at the time of the show)
@ clips and restreams aren’t allowed unless there is an official licensing agreement between the NBA and the person. This is how American licensing and copyright law works. It was clearly illegal if it was struck down. And was only struck down per policy that is called “DMCA.”
@ definitely more skilled just from a natural progression of the game, more technology, more medicines and also kids don’t play outside no more they don’t play enough 5 on 5 they just do a lot of skill work
You know the NFL markets itself in a way that’s pretty similar to what Mars is talking about, right? The league isn’t as star focused, so when a LeBron or MJ type figure eventually leaves, fans are still invested because they watch for their team first, not just for the players. Honestly, the whole conversation felt disingenuous on Pen’s part.
I think what pen is doing is for short term entertainment and mars view point is long-term l. That's why premier League and champions League and la Liga is so popular. I've been a Liverpool fan my whole life even though I don't watch soccer that much and people oversees don't follow teams for players but for teams themselves. That's probably why it's long lasting and a loyal fan base.
I love how marz is able to get off his corny jokes about LeBron or any other American player. But if they criticize how Luka played bad in the finals or talk about Jokic he would be quick to call you xenophobic.
Only 2 1/2 hours in so maybe it’ll change in a bit but, we have another case of Pen just not listening to somebody and making his own assumption as to what they’re saying. Marz is saying that in order to make a HIGHER QUALITY of product, stop focusing SOLELY on the top end talent or the most popular storylines. He’s not saying stop talking about guys like Bron, KD, and Steph. He’s pointing out that you should also talk about up and coming guys like Franz, paolo, or Scottie, maybe not as much as the top end talent, but they should still get some form of publicity to help build up the league once the older generation eventually retires
I thought it was clear but apparently not. i did meet in the middle though,promote the pistons vs the suns and the lakers vs the magic and the warriors vs the rockets
@ it’s unfortunate because there are a lot of good players/teams that people could get into if they were exposed to them a little more. I introduced a friend of mine who doesn’t like the NBA (unironically because she doesn’t like LeBron) by getting her to watch specifically the Rockets, the magic, and Wemby. She has been having an absolute blast this NBA season watching these teams and she even went on her own and discovered cade and the Pistons.
And just to stay objective and keep you guys on the track of "facts." This trend of NBA viewership being this low is comming considering we are still in December while, football is the headline. This the natural viewership trend. And as soon as the superbowl is over right back to where they averaged
Marz again is wrong about the accessibility, Which again shows his lack of knowledge of media spaces and slots. NBA league pass was EXCLUSIVELY made for people to watch games OUTSIDE of their LOCAL networks. Because every LOCAL network owned that license to those games. No they have not taken them from Local networks and im sure you are repeating the same stupid talking points from people that dont know shit.
And my point was People with league pass cant watch their local teams on league pass which is stupid. and theres some teams i know denver for example where watching their games is extremely difficult. The accessibility of the game is made alot harder than it should be and people will just go to illegal means to watch the games cos its A) cheaper and B) easier
@ which is another lie, for any local network you don’t even need cable you just need a digital antenna (which all modern tvs have) or a physical antenna which range from about 10-50 dollars. Upon scanning for channels, those local channels appear. So i understand your desperation to be right for your people but your claim about accessibility is bullshit. And I’m sure it was some grapevine comment you picked up on instead of the actual source of information that can disprove this lmao.
The nfl markets their league better because they talk about the sport being played in the moment. For example, Stephen A does a top 5 team list every week
Think you’re a little too caught up on your perspective Ox. The casual fan doesn’t care about the game as much as even the people here watching a 3 hour long show about basketball. The majority of people have always watched just for entertainment. Thats what makes them casual fans and the casual fan has always been the majority. If you have no knowledge of something but you’re interested in learning and you turn on the most popular basketball show just to see them bashing the game and players that will probably turn you off of it a bit. I dont think it means they cant think for themselves its just the fact that they dont know better. This isnt their passion or career its a fleeting interest that has the potential to grow. i wish the perspective was more like what you’re saying but thats just not the case. I dont blame the casual fan i blame the presentation and the accessibility. There hasn’t been a nationally televised game since last Thursday and it was 2 games. Unless you watch illegally or pay for it thats all you get. On top of local games being blacked out.
@@blitzandgoo I’m definitely caught up in my own perspective, I do realize that. I think catering to people that don’t love the game is changing the game and I feel a type of way about that. I’m real sensitive/emotional about basketball.
@@BIGOXMedia i definitely agree. I think most things in general that try to appeal to the majority end up losing the essence of what made it appeal to the hardcore fan/user. But it is what it is i guess, businesses are there to make money above all else.
We never talk about how Tatum has never not made it to conference finals and I don’t see him missing that no time soon. Who else in history has had so much early playoff success and continued it his whole career. Not even MJ did that.
@ my bad I’m a sixers fan I forgot they choked to the heat, but still my point stands beside that one year. At 26 he already has a HOF career after winning that chip putting him in the same league with Giannis and Jokic. He’s leading the Celtics in all categories this season and averaging 30 on a stacked team.
@ bro if you don’t mind the new NBA of teams shooting the 3 ball too much why would you not respect Tatums game as much as the players you do respect heavily?
They’re all wrong. The top 3 reasons ratings are down is. 1. Social media 2. Player empowerment 3. Sports betting Social media has made it way more accessible with players, games, and highlights. Player empowerment have made a bunch of players divas and entitled. Sports betting has been around since beginning of time but it’s more accessible than ever and som players have proven they can care less about cashing tickets, and also if your not betting on games you’re not watching them (unless you’re just a diehard fan) and if you are betting you’re only focused on that certain game. It also doesn’t help old retired players constantly saying how bad the game is being played now. These players podcast is also showing that basketball may not be main priority. It’s a plethora of things but these are crucial factors.
The NBA can’t move past their love fest for LeBron and now they’re suffering because of it. They still promote this old man as the “face of the league” while you have actual better more exciting young players that get no promotion at all. Even Wemby barely gets talked about and he’s literally a top 5 generational talent ever! Casual fans are only going to gravitate to the guys who the NBA / media continues to shove in our face. Them dying on this old man hill, promoting the same 3 washed up players is BAD for league growth. People have finally grown tired of LeBron. He has overstayed his welcome. It’s time for the league to most past him (along w/ Steph and KD) and truly commit to the young stars in the league.
Additionally, we as a society have removed the value of having a personality and being congenial. That's how stars are made. We don't really have stars that are likable like we used to. They don't have the same level of celebrity that they used to have. So individual players arent able to build the same brand equity they used to be able to. Draymond has a terrible personality... Whereas Dennis Rodman played with the same level of intensity but was a much more likable athlete. We have basically eliminated the need for hoopers to have a personality because it's more about wokeness than actually providing the paying fans with the product they're asking for.
I remember ChlTwn blaming Bron for the lakers defense being horrible but gives random excuses for Randle🤔…and now Bron is the reason threes are shot but not curry. Dude been moving weird lately🤦🏽♂️
A lot of interesting positions spoke here today. I respect opinions but if this guy believes viewership is low because of difficulty watch the game is so off based it's in outer space, there are multiple outlets to view the game from free. Games on network TV viewership is gauge by the number of ppl tuned in, nothing to do with difficulty to view. That's another issue in itself. The product is flawed, it's not a follow the leader thing. There is no real strategy, no real defense, no competition amongst the league itself. You have high tier teams and that's it. The game does suck, the players who actually played agree with this
Did chill really say nba fans don’t like Jayson Tatum because they’re jealous that he’s handsome lmao
yes,yes he did
@MarzTalksSportscould be true. You hated on him randomly before. So I wonder?
@@erikjohnson1435s tier delusions
was just gonna comment this
Chill love for tatum go deeper than the game of basketball
Shoutout Nykareem your hate is greatly appreciated by me. Also I am FULLY aware that promoting superstars and storylines gets the most views and money. I DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE NBA'S PROFIT MARGINS. I care about good basketball being spotlighted and i dont care constantly bashing the product and not showcasing the talent around the league is stupid to me. The game should be about BASKETBALL not about villains and heroes and profits. I will probably be a terrible commissioner for business but i guarantee the sanctity of the game of basketball will be restored.
W kings media cartel at the end
Did you have this ready to copy and paste? How u type this so fast
@ Im dedicated to this game,every show i do this,i work at this,i take pride in this
@MarzTalksSports btw marz i agree that amen is better than dyson now because we had are worst defensive first half against grizzles because of dyson helping off way too much against desmond bane who would shoot or just attack pass for wide open three.
@@clad_diamondhe has had a tendency to be too aggressive in help,natural tradeoff of being such a dangerous playmaker
@MarzTalksSports but comon bro you realy helping for scottie piepen jr let him go one on one
a lot of people said what Marz said doesnt work but as Chill said. Pushing Multiple Stars is exactly what the NFL does. They've done it for a while and are currently having their best ratings ever. Because they push multiple stars AND they push good and the most valuable teams. KC. Baltimore. Buffalo. Cincinnati are some of the most talked about NFL Teams while being some of the least valuable teams. Because if you focus on pushing good/entertaining teams people will get interested in them. Because the big markets will push themselves. Meanwhile in the NBA teams like Memphis and Orlando dont get many Primetime Games. Even OKC isnt top 10 in most Primetime Games. Again we can clearly see the model does work. Dont say its not a North American Model when the sport dominating North America is doing it with that Model. Plus when you do it like the NFL does it you dont have to make the narratives. They make themselves all you gotta do is push them.
It is nuts that the Packers, based in Wisconsin, has the dedicated, well-covered fanbase that they do but Milwaukee Bucks located in the same state is considered a hopelessly small market that every superstar worth their salt should be hurried out of.
I largely agree with your point, but simultaneously, it may be that it may be too late to start "pushing multiple stars" as a way to solve the NBA's problems. The NFL dominates the lion's share of attention as they have for close to a century. The team-over-individual mentality has already long taken root throughout that timeframe, while the NBA, once a failing sports league, at every turn relied on the miraculously popular superstar to reach higher and higher highs. Now, in terms of contracts, coverage, and general structure of things, the NBA is too set on its ways, and even if changes are made, you cannot shake the NFL's share of the pie, a pie that has shrunken and shrunken with piracy, social media discourse, highlights, and new forms of entertainment (some of which are non-sports) like streaming. That is to say, you can run and cover the Bucks from 2025 onwards, like the Packers, but it will never become the Packers.
@@waikayshinyou hit it exactly on the head, saying the NBA should do what the NFL does is just not realistic and everybody knows that. NFL preaches the shield over anything.
That's a fair point
Roger Goodell isn’t with the “woke” agenda that’s why, he still has a old school mentality on how players should appear (dress code, conduct themselves in interviews, etc) the NBA is long gone of any sort of masculinity and accountability, that’s ONE of the reasons why the ratings are down imo.
@@waikayshin I agree but I’m not saying they should turn around and push teams over stars. They’re in too deep to make that change plus the NFL can do that because of how big teams NBA can’t. But pushing more stars. Pushing more good/up and coming teams. Letting narratives push themselves are all things the NBA can currently do. I’m not saying emulate the NFL 1:1. That’s just impossible. But there are things the NFL is doing that the NBA can do. So you don’t have to cover the Packers like the Bucks. But you can cover teams like Memphis. Houston. Orlando better.
It is a little wild to me that the very people who idealize and reminisce about the purity, authenticity, and physicality of old school hoops are the quickest to defend the very market mechanisms that took away those qualities under the guise of "business" and "practicality". IT is precisely this profit-driven, permanent growth mindset that has turned youth hoops into an expensive, joyless pressure cooker rivaling that of kids starting classical music at the age of 5, AAU into an unserious clipfarm, and the G league into a dated reference.
Appealing to casual viewers is exactly what took away the 2000s defense that everyone in the PC community apparently adores. It also vindicates LeBron's decision to join Miami and KD"s choice to join the Warriors, two decisions we apparently hate, but was responsible for the 2010s outperforming both the 2000s and the 2020s in terms of the all-so precious ratings. It's what moved the Warriors away from the best crowd of all time to a city whose arenas are full of techbros and entrepeneurs. It's what drives up ticket costs and makes it prohibitively expensive for working class people and poorer from attending games/pursuing hoops - which in turn in parallel encourages nepotism, another thing we pretend to hate. And to rely on superstars to this degree is to ensure that future stars will also be 'spoiled' and 'entitled' as people would like to say they are today, and that the league and its media will do EVERYTHING in their power to move prospective stars into Los Angeles, New York, and Boston. After all, if superstars sustain the league over everything else, why wouldn't you load manage? Why wouldn't you cater to their whims?
Pen argues throughout the video as if the is a marketer, and cites other entertainment industries and their practices. Others in the chat argue that this is the "American" way of doing things. This way of doing things have ruined mainstream film, video games, RUclips, literature, and the arts, and the NBA is no exception. By trying to be 'casual,' you minimize friction, maximize inauthenticity, cater to rich, prospective investors, neglect the local, the poor, and the marginalized, and slowly degenerate the substance that made you appealing in the first place. By trying to appeal to everyone, you appeal to no one. The mindset of permanent growth destines you for slop, and the viewers, instead of feeling catered to, will move on to new forms of entertainment that have not been ruined by the profit motive just yet.
Asking players to be themselves and not be PC, incentivizing less buddy-buddy BS, bringing back physical play and emotion to the game is actually the opposite of playing it safe with the marketers.
I'm not trying to restore the NBA to it's glory days. I'm saying the NBA needs to stop killing it's best storylines. And I'm trying to speak in a language that the NBA understands: viewership and ratings
those first two paragraphs were pure poetry
@@pensarebasketball stay on topic,the crux of your debate with mars is that the nba should mostly market superstars in bigger markets and not small market teams which is indeed absolutely playing it safe.
@@pensarebasketball What I'm saying is that speaking that language (and the NBA is monolingual) is entirely contrary to the un-PC, hostile, physical, emotional play that you obviously would like to see return to the league. Yes, it is the opposite of playing it safe with the marketers - that is why it's gone.
If anything, the NBA might need this moment of parity and degrowth to reconsider its needs. For example, the NFL, despite its cultural dominance, is actually not a growth model. It merely dominates American sports, and it seeks nothing beyond that. It's not trying to expand itself to the casual markets of Europe and Asia and Africa. It sustains the strong, local fanbases it has. Marz's ideas today might seem idealistic, but it is ironically the practical holding action that reorients the business model of the NBA from seeking higher and higher dosages of the superstar drug. Cultivate smaller markets with a parity of coverage that matches the parity of competition, and thereby preparing yourself to laser focus coverage once the superstar that checks all the boxes (let's not argue which boxes they are) emerges - wherever he emerges, whoever he may be.
The NBA has enough capital and a bedrock fanbase to afford this slowdown, and to be fair, in the age of streaming, it's not even certain if plummeting "TV ratings" is the accurate/adequate measure of plummeting popularity. But the fact that there is this longstanding panic to me signifies an administration-wide insecurity, one that foolishly seems addicted to growth and expansion at the expense of everything else.
@@pensarebasketball The players saw what happened to Kyrie when he was outspoken. I don't blame them for shutting up and dribbling. They even tried to kick Dillon Brooks out of the league for calling Bron old and Rus is on a minimum because of the narratives they pushed. The media doesn't care about the players or the sport.
Even though the chat was hating, I enjoyed the Kings convo between Pen and OX.
💪🏿💪🏿💪🏿
@@Matthew-xl5bc Nah it was acc dope,just delayed me leaving my comment
@MarzTalksSportsMakes sense. What are thoughts about Fox to the Rockets rumours? Do you think the Rocket should try to acquire him?
@@Matthew-xl5bcfor fvv yes
This is one of the best conversations you guys have had in a while. Hopefully the NBA has people watching shows like this to get ideas
Jesus pen just kept cutting off Marz and not listening.
LOW being here is hilarious lol
You know damn well I don't listen. Why are you surprised?
It’s crazy that in the cycle always repeats like players from the 60s disliked the 90s game and said it was easier and etc. it’s so wild to me
W show Marz was cooking as usual
Get off your knees
I find it crazy how Pen keeps referencing the WWE when objectively their most successful era is the current era and the WWE rn is constantly promoting their abundance of stars while also putting a constant spotlight on alot of their upcoming talent, like what Marz wants the NBA to do
interesting,i have no knowledge of the WWE and u could be lying rn but interesting
@MarzTalksSports Even his point about the Attitude Era being "Built on one guy"(referring to Stone Cold Steve Austin) isn't true because the WWE at the time was also heavily invested in wrestlers like Undertaker, Triple H, Shawn Michaels, Degeneration-X, The Rock, Razor Ramon, Mick Foley, etc. Hell Raw didn't beat WCW in the Monday Night Wars(ratings war between the 2 companies) until they went hard into promoting more people and gave Mick Foley the WWF title. And WCW Nitro's ratings were dropping SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE it was very heliocentric on Hulk Hogan and the NWO.
Even in the 2000s, WWE still saw alot of success promoting an abundance of stars(Brock Lesnar, John Cena, Eddie, Batista, Randy Orton, etc).
And for the cherry on top, the reason WWE fell off hard throughout the 2010s is because they tried to hard promote singular people, first John Cena then Roman Reigns
TL;DR: Pen is tripping
@MarzTalksSports (idk if my first reply actually sent or not but if it did, ignore this)
Its even crazier cause his "The Attitude Era was built on the back of one man"(referring to Stone Cold Steve Austin) just isnt true. It was built off the back him AND Vince, The Rock, Triple H, Shawn Michaels, Degeneration X, Mick Foley, Undertaker, etc. Infact, WWE's main competition at the time, WCW, faded out BECAUSE of the fact that WCW relied too heavily on Hulk Hogan and the NWO
Even in the 2000s, the WWE still relied on their collective abundance of stars and rising talent, like the 2002 OVW class and the Smackdown Six.
The WWE only fell off during the 2010s SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE they relied way to much on singular stars like John Cena, and then Roman Reigns
So TL;DR: Pen trippin
@@YaBoyCorey54 very very interesting
The Attitude Era was built on 1 person; Vince McMahon. His feud with Bret opened the gates to his subsequent feud with Stone Cold, which built up the entire attitude era.
If you think Shawn, HHH, Chyna, The Rock, Taker, Kane, Bret, Mankind, Owen were a part of it, yes. They were.
But the authenticity of the Montreal Screw Job and the WCW DOING NOTHING with Bret in the fallout of that due to Hogan's ego and Bischoff's mismanagement is what created the downfall of WCW and ushered in the success of the WWF rising again in a ratings war they were losing...
Losing because the WCW edged them on storytelling with the Outsiders and the NWO.
The 2 big mistakes the WCW made during that time was the Sting-Hogan Starcade match that flopped after a year of buildup and the Goldberg thing.
You're arguing in circles with someone who has inhaled every book on wrestling business every written. It's a huge part of my understanding of story structure.
If you break down any majorly successful movie franchise, despite the noise of 57 characters, there is a main story, a main plot.
The league needs a face. It needs A GUY. A guy everyone loves and everyone hates, a guy everyone wants to watch. There can be 100 other characters, but everyone needs a dog in the race.
My star in the 90s vs. THE STAR of the 90s.. If I'm a Portland fan that star is Clyde, if I'm a NY fan it's Ewing, if I'm a Seattle fan it's Payton, if I'm a Magic fan, it's Shaq. And I watch my star try to take down THE star.
If I'm a Knicks, Pacers, Pistons, Lakers fan, Jordan is the foe. Reggie, Isaiah and Magic are my heroes in the story.
Vince became the villain so everyone became a hero against him. It felt relatable (we all have a boss we don't like, a parent who's always coming down on us). The larger point is, players become avatars for our psyche.
Jordan. You either wanted to be like him, or you hated him. His journey became THE journey.
Allen Iverson, Kobe Bryant came as close as anyone to mimicking that me vs. the world dynamic. Steph as well.
Jokić and Giannis aren't AS relatable if we think of them as avatars. Nor is Wemby.
The most optimal face of the league candidate right now honestly is Anthony Edwards.
Rant over
Want the nba to be back ? Tell giannis and Jokic to fake a rivalry and have them meet up in the finals.
Neither is happening with the Celtics around buddy☘️
Having one face of the NBA is the reason why they’re in the spot they’re in now. Haven’t y’all seen whst always pushing LeBron at the front has done for the league? It minimizes exposure for all of the other great players in the game. Even when MJ was large, the league did a great job at giving back stories with other players and teams keeping them relevant. Nowadays everything is a hot take and the spotlight isn’t widespread how it used to be. Big players up to the point where they think they’re bigger than the league.
LeBron was built up to pass the torch. To borrow a wrestling term, it's called "putting someone over" on your way out.
If a still in his prime LeBron exiting his prime met Tatum or Luka in the finals, that could help them the way facing LeBron in 2014 helped Kawhi. Kawhi wasn't a star. He fed off of LeBron.
@ I can see how he was built up to pass the torch and to some degree I understand why it was done but the problem is they didn’t do a good job of making sure that the ones who are getting the torch passed to them have enough exposure so it makes it hard to pass the torch with such huge “what if’s”… It worked for Kawhi because for the most part the media wasn’t stuck in the LeBron glaze the way it is now. It’s way worse than it’s ever been the last 3-5 seasons. 2014 was still a time when narrative based arguments really start to shape mainstream Sports media so Kawhi was able to come out on top… now, Every day they talk about LeBron no matter what he does and that has hurt them more than anything… it’s cool to want to build him up but they forgot about what’s next because 1, he gave off the energy like he’d be around forever just by playing so many years healthy etc and 2, LeBron is a cash cow. So talking about him will bring viewers and viewers bring revenue so why not talk about him all the time? They settled with LeBron because the recipe for success has become so simplified with him and in return they’re still stuck in time and abandoned forward thinking…. So many players are greats and LeBron is a top 5 player of all time but between ESPN and CLUTCH we have been fed a constant diet of Lebron and told everybody else isn’t good enough for the crown when that’s just not the case!! Especially when you consider LeBron has let multiple superstars get rings on his watch! He made it easier for them to stop being creative and it had backfired tremendously…
Penn was spot on about stars being vanilla and lack of storylines
Ron struggling to say concentrate has me ☠️ 😂😂😂😂
You need help
The best players are international, and most are boringly mature
The most viewed are aging out
The league needs crash outs to win a chip. U need a couple on the squad for entertainment
How are Giannis and Luka boring?
@@Matthew-xl5bc well ppl think giannis is corny, and view Luka as a guy who don’t like basketball
@@Matthew-xl5bcpersonality wise yea
@@ImplementingdynamicsClearly you are talking about Jokic not Luka. Luka likes to play, can visibly see it.
@@Sacredix they say luka drinks beer and out of shape every season. Are you not on Twitter and Instagram lol😭and they call him a cry baby. These are the talkin points around them, and I can see why ppl view them differently
Ron and Ox are hilarious 😂
I swear 1 person said inside the nba bashing the league is the problem. All of a sudden everyone is saying it 😂
KG would never say Jokic is better than him. He's more diplomatic nowadays but don't get it twisted. I'm sure he thought he was the best in the early 2000s. And theres nothing wrong with that.
As an nba fan, i love the nba! I've been a fan for 3-4 years and i can safely say theres no sport better than bball and nothings gonna change that. I love the amount of talent and the different talent the league has, i love how it was played and is played right now, i just love the game. The problem i have os how casuals view the game and respectfully, most media members are casuals, especially chuck snd shaq, they're actually disgustingly bad for bball. Have they said anything positive about the new generation other than Gianni's, ant, and joker? I dont think its a bball problem and i hope they dont change the game. W panel and w episode today ngl.
Ngl I never got the face of the league thing. I never thought about that growing up I was watching the game
People can say “fans should do xyz” until the cows come home but that doesn’t take away from what the facts are
Casual fans aren’t basketball purists that’s just a fact…. When you expand a business built on ENTERTAINMENT (because that’s the entire point) the largest part of the audience will always be casual fans point blank period.
It’s highly unrealistic to ask casual fans to watch based solely on basketball. That’s where the story telling aspect comes in. There has to be more than just basketball. The reality is professional athletes being the best in the world isn’t enough. The reason the tv deals and whatnot are so high is because casual fans tuned in. Purists will find the game wherever it goes. The Bulls have damn near the highest jersey sales overseas…. Because of the product? No. On top of that sometimes casual fans won’t turn into more than that but if you’re worried about the numbers then you HAVE to cater to the casual fan that’s a fact. Then there’s the issue of representation. Casual fans who are American want to root for Americans because people want to have something to identify with. With the lack of story telling people don’t know anything about these players other than surface level things (nationality, race, etc). People want to relate. So give them something to relate to. Give them something to root for. You can’t call a casual fan stupid just cuz they don’t love the same things you do. THAT’S stupid. Everybody on the planet has casual interests… the issue is the marketing because casual fans of anything, if left to their own devices, are just less likely to dig deeper or pay more attention to nuance.
I think marz saying pushing good basketball helps but the league clearly isn’t interested in that
What’s clear is that these industries just get money hungry and only care about the bottom line. If you ask me I think people are waking up to that fact and taking a stand against putting money in these peoples pockets. Even if it’s only a little.
Another point is if you look at something like the Olympics the marketing becomes easy
“It’s us vs them”
People know what and who to root for and they only really care about the jersey you got on. Make it easier for fans to know who they wanna root for. Purists will generally understand the game more than casuals will so they know what they wanna root for. The middle man for understanding becomes the media so they have a responsibility to make the game more digestible to someone who may not know what they’re looking at.
Y’all ain’t heard about cord cutting? T.V. rating are going down across the board.
So them why the nfl ratings booming? Its plenty of tv shows getting 10 million views.
@ the one exception?
@@SeeingShadows one exception? So the nba is riddled with an excuse thats proven to not be true with the nfl and other sports booming. But its only applied to the nba? So the style of play dont matter? Refs being ass dont matter? Players missing important games and going on tv telling us they aint playing? None of that matters
Pen was entirely right. Marz was entirely naive. And as a side tangent, Narrative doesn't necessarily equate to negativity. Narrative is friction. Narrative is dramatics. Narrative is overcoming obstacles. Narrative doesn't have to be a bad thing
facts marz gon watch basketball no matter what lmao I agree with pen
@@itszaaaamzeh From a business standpoint i acknowledge my perspective isnt the profitable one. I dont know how many times i had to make the clear,seems like i was having a different conversation which is fine i shouldve stayed on topic. I dont think i was naive since i made it clear i was aware of why it wouldnt happen the way i said it should. moreso just disappointed that thats how it is
@MarzTalksSports not just a business standpoint. From an ideological culture growth standpoint, your suggestion is antithetical with reality. culture is built from economics not the other way around. People don't become politically radicalized if they're rich their whole life. People don't seek religion when they're content. The draw to everything is always the story behind it. it can be a good thing.
@ I think the 'story' should be basketball. not manufactured drama. the story should be about the game,it very rarely is in the nba. im fine with stories attracting the masses. when those stories arent even about basketball i think thats dumb
@MarzTalksSports see that's the thing, it's ALL basketball. The Sport doesn't start and stop on the court.
There are several issues with today's game. I don't think you can pinpoint one. Some up on the panel were saying that because of former players and analysts disparaging the game, its deterring the casual fan. I think its the opposite. The game is actually geared towards bringing in the casual fan with the promotion of 3s and dunks. This is why they have softened the rules. I think its deterring the hardcore fan, the basketball purists who WILL religiously watch all 82 games and not miss a minute. While the casual fan will watch it... casually. Whenever they have nothing else going on. So while its broadened the overall fan base, the game itself has been watered down for entertainment purposes. In doing so certain elements of what made basketball worth watching for the hardcore fan have been eradicated. These guys are too buddy-buddy now. Sure guys were cool back then to a degree but not to the level of today where guys who just battled in the playoffs are attending each others weddings. It almost becomes a conflict of interest when you have more comradery with a guy on another team than your own teammate. I hear NBA veterans talk about NBA locker rooms then vs now. Back then those guys would build trust and rapport with their teammates off the court by having team events and functions. Now its every guy for himself and his brand. That affects the product because it limits team continuity and rivalries which then results in constant player movement. It becomes a vicious cycle.
this is interesting
I know I won't get comment of the week because PC and it's members don't like to be held accountable, but this has to be said. I know y'all won't read it though anyway.
Everything that Luka gets criticized for, Julius Randle does the same thing, but he doesn't get any criticism from those same people. In fact, I've heard those same people say Julius is a good defender and were reluctant to call him bad even when Marz called out his flaws. Everytime Marz brings up a mistake Julius makes, the first response is, "but Naz Reid" or "what about Conley", it's always deflection and bringing up someone else instead of holding Julius accountable. But, for some reason whenever it's Luka, there's a 7 minute rant about everything he does terribly, meanwhile nobody brings up Kyrie Irving sitting right next to him. Luka isn't even the worst defender in the starting lineup, yet he gets blamed for everything, he doesn't get the "he's not the only one" bail out that Julius gets
Now, when me or other people in the comments say that there is an obvious level of bias/favoritism happening here, it's always met with retaliation, rather than understanding, and the people we criticize get defensive and reflect all the blame on us, instead of just thinking for one second, just one short moment, maybe, just maybe, they could be in the wrong, but obviously that will never happen, because ignorance and arrogance exist in harmony.
When will Chill (and Bob sometimes) get past their own delusion and recognize when they act this way? They had a 20 minute discussion about why the NBA product is bad, but never once thought to say, "maybe my way of thinking is also hurting the product". But, what do I know? Obviously, I'm just a goofy, I'm a hater, I never played ball, I could never have the intelligence to understand or even refute what these basketball scientist say, I should just shut up and watch or shut up and don't.
this will not be on comments of the week,but i have seen it
@ L word salad
Is this JD's burner?
Angel is hated by mostly wm. Besides that she is well liked. The best thing Clark did was distance herself from any animosity towards Angel. The W has a lot of interesting players. The matchups should be the focus not smear campaigns on a "villain player" from casual fans who Stan one player.
Again, you might not like it. And I agree with you… but that helps that league in a messed up way. Some people hated Angel cause she trash. And I’m not a wm. She’s just bad. But I’d tune in just to hate. And that helps
@@officerricky3230she’s trash but averaged a double double as a rookie?? you can’t say you said that
@@officerricky3230 that's the problem it's to many haters like yourself that can't congratulate
@@muniaalhassanYes
@ that’s a problem to YOU. To the league is good. You caught up in feelings lol the league just cares about me tuning in
Pen was preaching this whole episode
We’ve officially reached the enshitification of basketball. It’s frustrating how the panel keeps insisting the on-court product is “great” when it’s clearly not.
The glaring difference between NBA Cup games and regular-season games says it all-we’re being robbed of the quality basketball we deserve. That’s enshitification.
Guys like Len and Larz constantly push this narrative that today’s players are “more athletic, more skilled, and just better” without ever acknowledging how weak the officiating is compared to 10-15 years ago. It’s never been easier to average 30 ppl. That’s enshitification.
The fact that LeBron, KD, Steph, Harden, and other greats are dominating well into their mid-to-late 30s is proof of how much easier and less physical the game has become. What used to be a gritty, demanding sport is now overly sanitized and robotic, thanks to Adam Silver. That’s enshitification.
Silver has corporatized the game to the point where even the players seem disconnected from their own craft. They’ve turned into corporate drones, overly calculated and out of touch with the fans. Meanwhile, working-class people have been priced out entirely-basketball is just another thing to watch on a screen now, far removed from its roots. That’s enshitification.
And the guys who aren’t so corporate just aren’t good enough (Ant, Ja, Zion) and just come off as immature little boys.
If Adam Silver had any respect for the game, he’d step down. And if Marz cared about basketball, he’d quit his job as a panelist. Together, they’ve enshitified the sport we love.
Cool story bro.
Now this is the dedication i was talking about
Thank you for the time to write all the above.
So, why do you consume NBA content?
@@PlayersChoiceShow I still love basketball it’s been a huge part of my life it’s just not as exciting as it once was
Glad Mars stopped the tap dancing around the “problem” that was being done up until 36:31. From a business standpoint, the problem is simply the NBA’s inability to market the 2 best players on the planet because they aren’t American. Jokic and Giannis are 2 ALL TIME GREAT talents. They will both retire top 10-15 players at their current pace. They are generational players. But the reality is the NBA was built and marketed as an American product for nearly 70 years. It wasn’t until the mid 2000s to the early 2010s that we really started to a surge in European, African, and Asian talent come into the league. And here we are in the 2020s where half of the top 10 and almost all of the top 5 players in the world are from outside where the league takes place.
And I want to make it clear, I couldn’t care less personally where a player is from. I think Jokic and Giannis and Luka are unreal talents and love to watch them play. I’m simply speaking for what the masses think. We can keep dancing around this “problem” and say it’s the style of the game, the gentrification of the game, the fact that there’s more access to other entertainment, etc. And some of those things are valid. But the main problem in terms of viewership is that the superstars aren’t American and the casual fan as of 2024 going into 2025 is turned off by that. Point blank period.
W comment. This why the league forcing the push for Ant to be “the face of league” isn’t working. You can’t market a top 15 player to be the face of the league when Giannis and Jokic exist. If one of them were American, they would for sure be the face of the league.
Lmaoo stop this SHID bigs are hard to market American or not… if Ja morant was from London he would still have the same fan fair because how he looks on the court … Jokic is great but is boring to most on and off the court lol . Where someone is from CAN help and CAN hurt but it’s not the end all be all .. wat u do in between those line as far as entertainment is the large portion of the pie .
U know how many ppl don’t know tht shai is from Canada ? Him being in a small market and his game/personality being boring hurts him . Kawhi 2016-2017 was a top 5-10 player in the league but he played for the spurs and haven’t came out of his shell yet.. fast forward to the raptors years hes a viral sensation and becomes “the fun guy “
@@Heemkeem_9 and when did I mention Shai? Shai is from Canada. That’s North America. Also where the game of basketball originates from. You don’t have to admit it, what’s obvious is obvious. People want an American star, preferably from the United States. But the big thing is just not true. Shaq was extremely marketable. Wilt was extremely marketable. Dwight Howard was even extremely marketable. You know who the least marketable of the all time great bigs was? Hakeem. The numbers stand prove that too. Go look at the ratings when Hakeem was dominating. Interesting..
@@Heemkeem_9 what’s boring about Giannis? He’s a very entertaining player to the casuals, or at least he should be. And also like I said I don’t really care what the novices think, Jokic does a lot that the casual won’t pick up on. But even as a causal to the game it does not take much to want to watch him. If you think he’s boring then you just don’t like basketball and aren’t the person the league should be trying to attract.
I personally don’t see a problem with the league but the main problem is “NBA media” not us who actually love basketball because I feel like there is more casuals covering and watching the game than ever before so they won’t accept and/or appreciate the game for what it is and as far as viewership it’s kind of a supply and demand thing where it’s so many games in a season the casual fan would rather look at the highlights and box scores on a Tuesday in December vs watching because they believe the season doesn’t “really start” until April which is playoff time those of us who love basketball will watch for example Portland vs Spurs on a Monday night the casual fan will not but I think the game is in great hands personally im no less locked in than I ever been
Well said
@@donaldf9055 Thank you
This RUclips channel have the best takes ngl.
I agree with Pens take, storyline’s and matchups keeps people engaged
pen was cooking today, how does marketing the rockets help viewership when there’s no star
People want defense and toughness and hustle back and then dont want to watch the rockets.
People want 2000s type ball with athletes, gritty defense, big men, etc., but the team with all of that can’t get publicity. Crazy work ngl.
@@BlkStar99People want to find ways to complain. They would rather complain about the new generation instead of looking at the diversity of styles that exist in NBA. The Rockets are a team that every old head should love.
@MarzTalksSportspeople want to watch the Rockets lose to a star. The same way they wanted the Spurs to lose to a star, Badboy Pistons to lose to a star..
We are told stories since childhood. It's the oldest thing in the book. LeBron against the superteam Warriors.. that was a movie. Down 3-1. Just like Jordan vs. The Badboy Pistons or Celtics. People love watching the next wave get over.
Iverson vs. the Lakers was inherently more interesting than the Nets or Pacers vs the Lakers because there was a David Vs. Goliath element and all the characters were in place for that.
It's why people wanna see Wemby smoke Jokić and Embiid. It's just good storytelling. And when Wemby shoots 3/16 that game, the league loses. Because it's not interesting.
There's nothing overly interesting about most teams in the league. Teams certainly don't play the SAME* way but there's a lack of... This team is so different.
Jokić vs. the Timberwolves made the Timberwolves a viable foe for Lukas Mavs. Then we got to see Luka and Dallas go up against the Celtics so that was actually very positive. Had the series been more competitive and Luka been healthy I think a game 6 or 7 would have been amazing for ratings.
@@pensarebasketballCould you, as a movie buff, remind me of the broader consequences of Heaven's Gate after its release? Not just for its director, but for the studio and cinema as a whole. This is exactly the kind of scenario you're alluding to right now. Imagine if Michael Jordan had suffered a career-ending injury in 1990-what would have happened to the NBA? The league would have had to hedge its bets, promote other players, and develop compelling storylines to stay relevant. The same principle applies here.
4o
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NFL mainstream media does much better team of talking about a variety of teams more than the NBA does. You can see segments about the Commanders and Vikings but the NBA media is completely slient about the Rockets and Grizzlies.
The lack of grizzlies talk is disgusting. No jjj love, no jay huff love, no jack laravia love, no salti aldama love, it's stupid man smh.
Commenting before Marz
Also love the kings talk at the end
you could NEVER be before me
No time stamps?
Scroll down
I don’t speak to or for the “casual” fans. I also don’t care if the NBA views go up or down. The only thing that matters to me is the basketball.
Im with you im not an NBA stockholder their profits dont affect me
@@BIGOXMedia do you care about players choice? Or having a platform with more viewers? Is all connected. Swipa wasn’t as popular before the Nuggets won that championship
@@officerricky3230 what a dumb question Mr Officer. PC views actually effects my pockets so yea I suppose that matters to me
@ I feel you. I was just trying to make the point that the success of the NBA can affect pc. But I get what you saying
@@officerricky3230 that was rude of me Rick, my bad. No such thing as a dumb question. It’s not like the NBA is gunna fold r anything like that so I’m not worried about the effect on PC.
Pen I’m proud of u this episode man …. The nba needs a rocky balboa, someone who gets into the nba in their mid to late 20s thru overseas or the gleague tryout . Hes a 6’2-6’5 guard ..55 inch vertical , Olympic speed , handsome and a YOUNG Kobe(FROBE) type of charisma .. he has to be a face(good guy) first but a face tht u might question if he’s arrogant . He 4 peats wins 2028 Olympics which will be in the United States .. hes best friends with a streaming so u get glimpses of his rated r bachelor lifestyle . Hes the guy tht athletes … rappers … streamers and film writers want to be . In this era we need someone biggger than life on and off the court .
Oh and this guy was somewhat of a bum and reject due to him still pursuing greatness well into his 20s . So I prefer hes in a semi pro league before the gleague. Playstyle would be a way more athletic Russ with kyries finesse and skill set . Hes a very philosophical… flow state type of guy .. childlike and mysterious. Hes a beacon of hope for the hopeless and a reminder of what every human is capable of in their respective field , he resets the world , restore order and balance !!
They stopped talking bout wemby since Chet got hurt 💔
Facts lol they don’t get nobody to compare him too
Another issue is the media only promotes one to two players for a decade
the casual fan won't know who the others is because all they talk about is MJ or Bron and it started with MJ
Before him they promoted teams not individuals
Cad Cunningham definitely needs more media attention
Boring
Need less than 82 games , nobody on a random Tuesday is gonna commit to playing tactical and slow in the half court in a grinded out game, can’t have it both ways some regular season games are literally just and intrasquad scrimmage they just running up and down shooting 3s especially if you’re actively tanking , the NBA isn’t for everyone and that okay there are other hoop leagues
Ox hit it right on the button about a certain demographic being drafted in the league
The two parent home mixed kids .. who got all the girls their whole life .. started playing aau and had a trainer since age 7 .
@@gregorykirkland775 they are gentrifying basketball right in front of our eyes lol
Penn just said Shai was better than 2016 Curry, but crying about ratings and star power. Well if we have prime 2016 Curry in the league , that wouldnt been a issue
Did I NOT drive interest in people hate watching SGA? Yup. He's already Canadian. Now he's a hyped Canadian on a stacked team. Perfect villain arc
@@pensarebasketball True but now you need the Nba to hop on board
@@DesignzRUsShaq already pushed SGA's MVP agenda last year. Then there's the Canada vs. USA Olympics thing, SGA being a small market hero. This is how stars are built.
Nobody looking at shai as a small market hero 🤣
2:50:51 brooo😂😂😂😂
Pen this might of been your best episode 👌🏾
Appreciate that 🙏
I appreciate how ox stands on his takes tbh. Kg and Jokic closer than they think. Dirk I can’t get with but I see the vision
Ion even watch basketball but these cats popped up in my automatic playlist 1 day
Marz you was cooking today
I didn't even mention to overuse of the 3pt shot
Man I ain’t gonna lie ever since I started watching WNBA this past season this season to me has been mid low key. For some reason I enjoyed more watching the woman’s play. And Pen is right for example I got into WNBA because of CC and my favorites players are Aja and Arike
Promoting 1-3 main guys is the reason why the league is in trouble now. When those guys fall off or retire what’s gonna happen? Viewership is gonna fall. It’s better to promote THE GAME and all of the best players instead of just the same 3 people. Marz is right, Pen was way off on this
It’s supposed to be a revolving door
@ that would be the case but guys play so long nowadays is hard for people to move on to the next guy paired with the fact that the league doesn’t promote the next guys either.
@@soscj thts not the problem lol if Zion was 33 ppg , 12 rebound , healthy and his team was one of the top teams in the west we wouldn’t hear tht much about curry or bron lol they would be our legacy acts …. Ja Lmaaoo he was primed to take the torch ,
@@soscj the league was begging for Ja and definitely Zion to be the next guys lmao they just dropped the ball miserably.
Marz is also wrong, there hands down has to be a face or a model that platforms whatever business or venture you are apart of. Take this podcast for instance, I guarantee that this pod isnt made up of fans for every single one of you but rather a preference between one or the other.
He talks about "spread the wealth," that also implies showing fans and viewers something that they dont want to see and forcing it upon them. This is what free market business is all about, the demand and the consumer decides who and what should be marketed. Not a referendum of inclusivity or the feel good aspect.
And my question to Marz, Do you know your demographic (in regards to your basketball platform) and what they like or dislike?
Your resume means everything it’s like a job interview if your resume not good to them you not hire.
They don’t think it actually sucks it’s entertainment they just having fun
Ron and ox just like me and my older brother😭😭😭
Ngl, I’ve seen SpongeBob market the Krusty Krab better than what Adam Silver is doing with the NBA
Longest panel show of all time?
W panel episode but i agree with marz completely. I think pens view is short term and not long term but some ideas can be implemented. A fee stars should be promoted and refs shouldnt be too trigger happy. I think the media members are the most at fault than the league themselves since they keep talking about the washed lakers and the washed warriors and the washed suns and how bad the league is today (im just assuming cause idgaf about the media especially charles and shaq cause they have disgusting takes). But at the same time, the rise of podcast imo are so beneficial for the game vause now i learn more about the game from channels like hoop venue, thinking bball, etc.
Respectful i dont really have a league pass issue cause i dont use league pass wink wink and im happy to watch the game vause i have very limited resources and i wont spend money on shii unless i have to.
hoop venue,thinking bball and marztalkssports W
@MarzTalksSports tapped in w that podcast ngl
@@donaldf9055W
Focusing promotion primarily on the top 3-4 stars isn’t a sound business strategy. Sure, the NBA went all-in on Michael Jordan, but what if he’d suffered a career-ending injury or decided to walk away from basketball in 1989? To build a sustainable league, you have to hedge early and invest in rising talents like Scottie Barnes, Anthony Edwards, and Cade Cunningham. Not only do they deserve the spotlight, but this approach fosters a more balanced league-one with diverse, compelling personalities that create a genuine sense of competition and excitement.
The NBA invested in Barkley, Malone, Penny, Hakeem, Shaq. But those stars' stories were always against the backdrop of the mega star.
So many rivalries. Jordan vs. Reggie, Jordan vs. The Pistons, Jordan beating out Magic, Bird. There were SO MANY stars in the 90s from Malone to Payton. Payton had his own shoes. Kemp was a huge deal.
The difference is there was a clear arc of good vs bad and there were healthy rivalries with sustainable storylines you could invest in over the years. The second Jordan teams up with Olajuwon on the Rockets because he leaves the Bulls, it all falls apart. There was something almost cult like, religious about basketball in the 90s. The figures were clear.
Malone won MVP and then faced Jordan in the finals and lost.
My point is, I gotta care that Jordan was robbed. That sets the stage for the MVP to face the REAL MVP.
Malone and Barkley didn't just win MVPs. They won MVPs that were (in some people's perceptions) someone else's to win.
@@pensarebasketballI get that, but you can have it AND create stories separate from the biggest star. Don't view the NBA as a single movie, it's a studio. The league is struggling for two main reasons: 1. There is no MJ - a superstar who also has an interesting personality. 2. It's hard to compete against Netflix, HBO etc. So you have to experiment and invest in wide varieties of players
Where’s the timestamps ?
😢
Im usually pretty L Swipa pilled but he was cooking with the NFL comparison at 42:00
Happy holidays PC community and big kudos to the entire panel! I will say this iteration here is my absolute favorite iteration of the show.
As for the ratings argument, even after Pen explained his side I still don't really get it and Mars' argument just intuitively makes a whole lot more sense to me.
Chill has a crush on Tatum 😂
Preciate it your marz for talking about Cade because I watch the pistons and what Cade has done the last couple games has been great he’s taken the leap I thought he would when they got solid spacing around him
someones gotta do it
Does anyone feel like of the major American sports, that NBA viewers especially new ones skew a bit younger than the NFL,MLB (which reportedly are experiencing boosts in their ratings) and younger audiences tend to use “alternative” sites to stream games thus not contributing to official ratings?
Swipa + any prop = W episode... even had Pen laughing. The pan and spatula one was iconic. Also when that PC music album coming out?
Also Marz South Africa has 3 pronged outlets too, they're just rounder.
good to know
So Marz just says at 6:30 that he wants to be able to illegally free use licensed product lmaooo. Does this guy understand how a business should be ran? Like this is all lukewarm 60 IQ takes that seems logical but in reality is rooted in stupidity with 0 knowledge about how to run a business lmao. But i guess a podcast to you is that comparison. Yall are funny af
This comment is so fucking funny 😭😭😖😖😭😭
It wasnt illegal lol. they got taken down because some clown decided to try and monetize one website and he ruined it for everyone. (information i wasnt aware of at the time of the show)
@ clips and restreams aren’t allowed unless there is an official licensing agreement between the NBA and the person.
This is how American licensing and copyright law works. It was clearly illegal if it was struck down. And was only struck down per policy that is called “DMCA.”
Ngl, I actually agreed a lot with what Pen was saying about fixing the NBA 💯
Pens cooked this episode
Masterclass episode from Marz, we saw some mannerism from Ticket inside him today (pause)
Ayo??
@@Natax99Finalyou saw some what from who inside where today
It’s the IQ players are more skilled than ever. Players are not as smart as they use to be
@@Ejayyy-i7o are they really more skilled though? I strongly disagree some basic fundamentals are missing. In my opinion
@ definitely more skilled just from a natural progression of the game, more technology, more medicines and also kids don’t play outside no more they don’t play enough 5 on 5 they just do a lot of skill work
The league isn’t cooked they just can’t promote to save their lives, when MJ was aging they were already hyping up the younger talents
They have been hyping up the next LeBron since Andrew Wiggins lmao the young talent just hasnt matched the hype
Time stamps?
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You know the NFL markets itself in a way that’s pretty similar to what Mars is talking about, right? The league isn’t as star focused, so when a LeBron or MJ type figure eventually leaves, fans are still invested because they watch for their team first, not just for the players.
Honestly, the whole conversation felt disingenuous on Pen’s part.
I think what pen is doing is for short term entertainment and mars view point is long-term l. That's why premier League and champions League and la Liga is so popular. I've been a Liverpool fan my whole life even though I don't watch soccer that much and people oversees don't follow teams for players but for teams themselves. That's probably why it's long lasting and a loyal fan base.
Aye this Episode is a classic 😂😂
demar sucks i was telling people the last 3 years as a bulls fan. And people tried to tell me he is better than lavine lmao
Inefficient midrange fadeaways make you a top 20 player in the league ig lul.
@@donaldf9055inefficient?
They don’t think it actually sucks it’s entertainment they just having fun lol
Joker has him fuming again LMAO
I love how marz is able to get off his corny jokes about LeBron or any other American player. But if they criticize how Luka played bad in the finals or talk about Jokic he would be quick to call you xenophobic.
when have i ever called jokes ab luka or jokic xenophobic? u compared my jokes to other peoples criticisms of players,thats a false equivalency.
Marz looked so annoyed in the beginning of the episode as a non American LMAO just my take
Only 2 1/2 hours in so maybe it’ll change in a bit but, we have another case of Pen just not listening to somebody and making his own assumption as to what they’re saying. Marz is saying that in order to make a HIGHER QUALITY of product, stop focusing SOLELY on the top end talent or the most popular storylines. He’s not saying stop talking about guys like Bron, KD, and Steph. He’s pointing out that you should also talk about up and coming guys like Franz, paolo, or Scottie, maybe not as much as the top end talent, but they should still get some form of publicity to help build up the league once the older generation eventually retires
I thought it was clear but apparently not. i did meet in the middle though,promote the pistons vs the suns and the lakers vs the magic and the warriors vs the rockets
@ it’s unfortunate because there are a lot of good players/teams that people could get into if they were exposed to them a little more. I introduced a friend of mine who doesn’t like the NBA (unironically because she doesn’t like LeBron) by getting her to watch specifically the Rockets, the magic, and Wemby. She has been having an absolute blast this NBA season watching these teams and she even went on her own and discovered cade and the Pistons.
@@dat_black_gui1745thats what the game is about thats great
@MarzTalksSports These matchups are already promoted: lakers vs the magic and the warriors vs the rockets
@@upfulsoul826i must be missing the promotion
What team has the best local announcers?
people rave about charlottes. for me anyone but the warriors
The problem is we have 30 teams and they all are playing the same
the problem is you believe this
And just to stay objective and keep you guys on the track of "facts." This trend of NBA viewership being this low is comming considering we are still in December while, football is the headline. This the natural viewership trend. And as soon as the superbowl is over right back to where they averaged
and yes paying to watch it does eliminate i would say 40% of viewership
Ngl Pen got a great point lmao
Ox was dead wrong about pineapple on pizza but was 100% right about having your own opinion.
@@ant_boy_spice4400 lol I be at the pizza spot like “AY bruh, mucho piña”
Marz again is wrong about the accessibility, Which again shows his lack of knowledge of media spaces and slots. NBA league pass was EXCLUSIVELY made for people to watch games OUTSIDE of their LOCAL networks. Because every LOCAL network owned that license to those games. No they have not taken them from Local networks and im sure you are repeating the same stupid talking points from people that dont know shit.
And my point was People with league pass cant watch their local teams on league pass which is stupid. and theres some teams i know denver for example where watching their games is extremely difficult. The accessibility of the game is made alot harder than it should be and people will just go to illegal means to watch the games cos its A) cheaper and B) easier
@ which is another lie, for any local network you don’t even need cable you just need a digital antenna (which all modern tvs have) or a physical antenna which range from about 10-50 dollars. Upon scanning for channels, those local channels appear.
So i understand your desperation to be right for your people but your claim about accessibility is bullshit. And I’m sure it was some grapevine comment you picked up on instead of the actual source of information that can disprove this lmao.
The nfl markets their league better because they talk about the sport being played in the moment.
For example, Stephen A does a top 5 team list every week
Think you’re a little too caught up on your perspective Ox. The casual fan doesn’t care about the game as much as even the people here watching a 3 hour long show about basketball. The majority of people have always watched just for entertainment. Thats what makes them casual fans and the casual fan has always been the majority. If you have no knowledge of something but you’re interested in learning and you turn on the most popular basketball show just to see them bashing the game and players that will probably turn you off of it a bit. I dont think it means they cant think for themselves its just the fact that they dont know better. This isnt their passion or career its a fleeting interest that has the potential to grow. i wish the perspective was more like what you’re saying but thats just not the case. I dont blame the casual fan i blame the presentation and the accessibility. There hasn’t been a nationally televised game since last Thursday and it was 2 games. Unless you watch illegally or pay for it thats all you get. On top of local games being blacked out.
@@blitzandgoo I’m definitely caught up in my own perspective, I do realize that. I think catering to people that don’t love the game is changing the game and I feel a type of way about that. I’m real sensitive/emotional about basketball.
PC Men are so emotional!😌
@@BIGOXMedia i definitely agree. I think most things in general that try to appeal to the majority end up losing the essence of what made it appeal to the hardcore fan/user. But it is what it is i guess, businesses are there to make money above all else.
We never talk about how Tatum has never not made it to conference finals and I don’t see him missing that no time soon. Who else in history has had so much early playoff success and continued it his whole career. Not even MJ did that.
so 2021 didnt happen?
@ my bad I’m a sixers fan I forgot they choked to the heat, but still my point stands beside that one year. At 26 he already has a HOF career after winning that chip putting him in the same league with Giannis and Jokic. He’s leading the Celtics in all categories this season and averaging 30 on a stacked team.
@@zaythemanager hes really good
@ bro if you don’t mind the new NBA of teams shooting the 3 ball too much why would you not respect Tatums game as much as the players you do respect heavily?
@@zaythemanageri respect tatums game alot i think
Marz was spitting when he said what he said about Kobe all these players put Kobe before them but yet mfers still disrespect Kobe. Which is crazy
They’re all wrong. The top 3 reasons ratings are down is.
1. Social media
2. Player empowerment
3. Sports betting
Social media has made it way more accessible with players, games, and highlights.
Player empowerment have made a bunch of players divas and entitled.
Sports betting has been around since beginning of time but it’s more accessible than ever and som players have proven they can care less about cashing tickets, and also if your not betting on games you’re not watching them (unless you’re just a diehard fan) and if you are betting you’re only focused on that certain game. It also doesn’t help old retired players constantly saying how bad the game is being played now. These players podcast is also showing that basketball may not be main priority. It’s a plethora of things but these are crucial factors.
The NBA can’t move past their love fest for LeBron and now they’re suffering because of it. They still promote this old man as the “face of the league” while you have actual better more exciting young players that get no promotion at all. Even Wemby barely gets talked about and he’s literally a top 5 generational talent ever! Casual fans are only going to gravitate to the guys who the NBA / media continues to shove in our face. Them dying on this old man hill, promoting the same 3 washed up players is BAD for league growth. People have finally grown tired of LeBron. He has overstayed his welcome. It’s time for the league to most past him (along w/ Steph and KD) and truly commit to the young stars in the league.
Additionally, we as a society have removed the value of having a personality and being congenial. That's how stars are made. We don't really have stars that are likable like we used to. They don't have the same level of celebrity that they used to have. So individual players arent able to build the same brand equity they used to be able to. Draymond has a terrible personality... Whereas Dennis Rodman played with the same level of intensity but was a much more likable athlete. We have basically eliminated the need for hoopers to have a personality because it's more about wokeness than actually providing the paying fans with the product they're asking for.
I remember ChlTwn blaming Bron for the lakers defense being horrible but gives random excuses for Randle🤔…and now Bron is the reason threes are shot but not curry. Dude been moving weird lately🤦🏽♂️
Pen been having ox go bald with his takes lately much love to the entire cast lol
A lot of interesting positions spoke here today. I respect opinions but if this guy believes viewership is low because of difficulty watch the game is so off based it's in outer space, there are multiple outlets to view the game from free.
Games on network TV viewership is gauge by the number of ppl tuned in, nothing to do with difficulty to view. That's another issue in itself.
The product is flawed, it's not a follow the leader thing. There is no real strategy, no real defense, no competition amongst the league itself. You have high tier teams and that's it. The game does suck, the players who actually played agree with this
W Open Gym wit Marz & Jordan 💕