What Do Grand Seiko and Viagra Have In Common ? COSC Realistic Expectations ?
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- Опубликовано: 18 окт 2024
- What Do Grand Seiko and Viagra Have In Common ? COSC Realistic Expectations ?
In this episode of Federico Talks Watches I talk to my master watchmaker Hans and we discuss topics like what he thinks about Grand Seiko, particularly spring drive? What is COSC and what are reasonable expectations ? Let me know what you think in the comments section below.
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Spring Drive, actually, is very close to how we work. Our heart for example is also mechanically in working but it is regulated electronically via nerves and signals from the brain 🙈.
That's fairly profound.
Oh boi. I can see the fanboy’s face when he said ‘It’s like Viagra’ hahahaha
One of the most fascinating comments on watches I have ever read. Such a great point. Our neural system constantly monitors our O2 to see if we need to speed up our HR and RR or slow them down.
Very well said.
Daryl Clasen I’m sure as one of the best watchmakers he knows more about it than you do.
"They took away the hard part". Grand Seiko worked 20 years to make the spring drive. Seems a lot of work to me.😊 But it's not for everyone, I wold love to own one.
Yep, definitely not a fad. That’s one of the most disrespectful and uninformed views I’ve ever heard from a ‘professional’.
Great Video - We need to keep seeing & hearing from Hans, and His opinions ... Well Done !
More to come!
Fanatastic show - so many watch websites/blogs are just sales extensions of the watch industry - Federico and his colleagues have no axe to grind and give it to you straight ......with charm and humour
Exactly!
Keep Hans coming on. Wonderful guy - even if he doesn’t like Spring Drive.
One of my favorite channels. However, I'm gonna have to disagree on the SD not being art. For the purpose of this essay, we are talking strictly about movements. Based on your reasoning, if it is not mechanical it is not art. I understand a mechanical purist may not like it, but just because someone doesn't like it, doesn't make it less of an art. Similar to "electronic music is not music" Art comes in all different mediums, it is supposed to challenge us, stir emotion(positive or negative)and generally requires imagination/skill and hard work. I agree GS is not mechanical, it is not quartz either, but attempting to quantify its split as 50/50, 70/30 etc is not relevant or quantifiable, it is what it is! SD has achieved something that horology has never seen before. It required passion, dedication and imagination to develop and obviously stirs emotions between the lovers and haters. Contrast this to the many plain mass produced ETA movement, rolexes machine production and outsourcing of movement components, and the lack of tangible advancement in the industry, id argue that SD is more art than much of the current mainstream luxury industry. We are in an age where super computers design components, increased automation, and fewer skilled hands we have long reached the zenith of what you could call "artistic watchmaking" for most of the industry. We measure in microns, design on computers and use this technology only to make something similar thats been made the same way for decades. SD introduced something entirely novel with the tech at its disposal, although unconventional. Saying that it is not art because it lacks a mechanical escapement is reductive. Science and engineering to some degrees are an art, Id argue that a reimagination of this old concept is in fact more art than much of what is going on in the industry now (obviously there are exceptions on the higher end). If a mechanic escapement is all that makes something art that's a low bar. Do novel materials make something art? What if they are unnaturally occurring antimagnetic materials made in a lab with a set resonance frequency? What about computer generated and machine made? Mass produced? Novel hairsprings that are designed to the tightest tolerances with complex compositions. Much of these advancements are not made with mechanics but AI and computer precision and would not be possible "in the good old days". Its the ship of theseus argument. At what point is it no longer traditional horology and therefore not art? The difference is GS leaned into technology and embrace it, whereas others have taken a conservationist approach when it comes to lack of innovation decide to explain it by calling anything that deviates not horology. You can't be seriously implying that the current ETA 2824 is more art than a SD?
Love the channel btw. I tune in constantly even though I strongly disagree with you on SD, but art is subjective so we can interpret it differently!
Very nicely argued.
In all honesty I find a little funny the way the Hans describes Grand Seiko movement as not being art. I think we would have to ask ourselves what is art really? Since art is subjective. And as in the history of art, are the advancements and the techniques that have pushed art forward in general terms. Technique and precision applies to this as well and that's the case for Grand Seiko which have pushed ahead the boundaries of what we know as horology. A piece of art in my humble opinion.
Art is not subjective. It is intersubjective. Those with good judgement will recognize art as such.
That been said, they're talking about the art of watchmaking, which is about brilliant craftsmanship. Sticking a PCB into a watch is not part of that craft. That's for what George Daniels called "Those damned electricians".
I think a good analogy is paintings and photography. Both can be art. Paintings are usually less accurate but have more degrees of freedom. More artistic? Sort of. But I think it is the wrong question.
Hans and Federico lost some credibility points when they said that Spring Drive is not natural and is not art.
@@kabatake That doesn't seem reasonable. Even if you like Spring Drive you have to acknowledge that it's a marmite movement.
Feck this 16 minute nonsens, We want an HOUR LONG Hans SHOW! Brilliant stuff as always and I couldn't agree more on Seiko. As for people wanting to wear their vintage watches in the shower... bizarre. missing the point of vintage. Do they also bring 19th Century muskets hunting?
Don’t hate on Spring Drive - don’t be stuck in the old ways. Watchmakers are not engineers. Spring Drive happens when engineering and watchmaking are combined. You get pure mechanical power source and the accuracy of quartz without batteries. As much as a mechanical watch is a watchmaking art, the spring drive is watchmaking & engineering art.
@@WeibenWang Not really, all the manufacturing of simple machines is done by workshop mechanics, hand workers. Watchmakers are just very specialized mechanics, but definitely not mechanical engineers. They understand basic concepts of drive systems, manufacturing technologies, and material properties, but that is not even the entire mechanical engineering common knowledge.
@@WeibenWang This is the cultural context. The term "Watchmarkers" always refers to people who work on mechanical watches and people who work on Quarts or Smartwatches are engineers.
Like Kikuo Ibe (creator of G-Shock) is not a watchmaker, he is mostly referred to as an engineer.
They are just labels and not supposed to be taken literally.
Agree with most of it.
I don't mind the spring drive.
But then any watch by grand Seiko is a treat.
Love how there craftsmen worship there art.
Can't say the same about the Swiss
Agreed for the most part
*Spring Drive is "unnatural *
Me: I still want a Grand Seiko
So do I, but a Hi-beat.
Can’t wait for something slimmer but still with their killer dials.
We don't agree on the spring drive, but that's perfectly alright. It is a source of a lot of debate for sure.
Need an hour show with Hans. Great to hear from a watchmaker exploding myths & giving us the truth about watches & their movements.
Great vid. Hans is a champ. The Viagra analogy had me in stitches 😂👍
Hans is what makes this channel so different from all the others. Keep it up!
Hans, you are a breath of fresh air! Thank you for you insight and humor!!
These videos with Hans are hands down, by orders of magnitude, my favorite watch videos on RUclips... educational and thoroughly entertaining
Great discussion as a!ways. I really enjoy Hans sharing his insight on all things watch making. Please continue to have Hans as an occasional guest o the show. We don't want him to get too behind on his repair backlog. 😁
Hey, what happened to “...but first, customary wristwatch check”?
Great piece, really enjoyed it!!
You two together are the most fun ever! I love that we are arguing about ancient and outdated little wrist machines that we all love. It’s quite humorous when someone changes the game a little like with Spring Drive. I wonder if this argument was similar as the Swiss Watch industry was tanking in the 1970s during the quartz crisis - “These quartz Seikos aren’t real watches..., they’re just a passing fad...”
In a sense I think thy kind of are... Quartz watches had a huge effect when they were first introduced, but actually their sales have recently started to decrease due to smart watches and also mechanical watches becoming more popular again. Before Quartz, tuning fork watches were considered to be really high end-electronic watches, now they are practically obsolete and almost impossible to repair.
It is interesting to see that there are already signs that Seiko seems to be slowly distancing itself from the Spring-drive. Their new factory in Shiojiri for example is dedicated to mechanical watches. I suspect they want to re-brand themselves as an established manufacturer of mechanical watches with a long venerable history, just like the Swiss brands. Of course Spring drive is more accurate and technologically impressive, but in the end of the day most customers don't really care that much about it...
It’s always great to see Hans.
You guys NEED a podcast! Would love an hour long episode of this
Is Hans Jurgen Klopp's brother!?
😂
Great video
First thing I thought 😂😂
Thats kind of racist .... sarcastic
Hans is always willing to share his knowledge and experience in a candid fashion. Thanks for all the great content
The dynamics between you 2 makes these interviews more than interesting 👌❤️, questions are very pertinent to watch performance without being fan boys. On another subject: recently bought an Omega pocket watch which was sent to Omega restoration service, the watch is 100 years old. Would any modern watch be as tough? What would be a realistic life expectancy of modern watches?
Keep up the good work!
John
Hans is the best, love these Q&A’s!
As always (with Hans) a very enlightening view of the world with reality goggles on.
Question for next time; what does he think about high-beat movements, 36,000 vph, ie. Zenith, Grand Seiko and others?
Thanks for an entertaining start for a Friday.
Damn like not even appreciating the smoothness of the second hand? Thats the thing that drives me the most to grand seiko.
Quartz can also be smooth, they only tick to save battery life.
Federico Talks Watches I think that underscores the innovation with Spring Drive! Quartz COULD do it but doesn’t because of battery considerations. Spring Drive DOES do a perfect sweep-with no battery!
Agreed but being powered by kinetic energy is not exactly this massive innovation. They two technologies together are.
@@FedericoTalksWatches I did not know that about the quartz tick. I wonder how long the battery in my Bulova precisionist will last? It has a very smooth sweep?
@@afty2703 There are high beat rate quartz watches (called UHF, i think bulova makes some), that have a much higher tick rate then you could (or ever want to) have in a mechanical watch.
Another fantastic episode with Handsie. Can’t believe that people expect or even want a waterproof accurate vintage watch. As for Spring dive there is no denying it’s a magical marvel, whether you like it or not is kinda up to you! Love these Fed keep em coming.
I've always taken the stance that if it takes a battery to operate the movement, then it's quartz. If the energy is supplied by a mainspring, it's mechanical. I admit that you could argue that the Spring Drive pushes the boundary of the definition, but it still is fully run off the mainspring, right? I don't know...I do know that GS make amazing value for money.
I argue that a mainspring is just a coiled up piece of metal. The regulation and escapement is what tells time and that is regulated electronically. Thats just my two cents though.
@@FedericoTalksWatches That's a completely fair perspective, and I get why you guys feel that. Like I said, that was my definition, but Spring Drive definitely challenges it.
@@FedericoTalksWatches I'm sure you saw this today: www.hodinkee.com/articles/does-spring-drive-have-an-escapement
It makes a somewhat compelling case that the spring drive fulfills the OED definition of an horological escapement...
Always a pleasure to see Hans back on the channel.
OK, the best content anywhere for the advanced watch hobbyist. 😎
Federico and Watchartsci, and the rest are just nice additions.
Thank you Hans for sharing your wit and knowledge with us. Long life and good health to you, oh, and you too Federico.
The people have spoken, more Hans! He’s great!!!
Thank you so much for this episode. I‘ve learned a lot and i‘s a great pleasure listening to both of you. Greetings from Hamburg/ Gemany 👍
Guys, you're fantastic! And the questions you answer...
Keep doing what you've been doing!
Grand Seiko spring drive - Hanz: "...it's a fad, it's going to eventually disappear..." What? Grand Seiko's spring drive is not going away anytime soon. I think he's going to eat those words.
Man, I love Hans. Great video. Great wisdom.
Is Hans sporting a Canadian flag today? Such style should be acknowledged!
Hahahaha
I was guessing Swiss flag neck gaiter
He's Australian
@@ArtBorow Uhhh that's not an Australian accent.
German accent. So aither German or Austrian.
Also - where was the customary wristwatch check!?!
Breitling
Grand Seiko Spring Drive....
that was a cool set of QandA guys!
Thank You Hans for sharing your knowledge here. Respect!
Most interesting show ever! Watched all the way to the end too.. keep up the excellent content
Fed, great to see Hans again. Question for next time: you recently singled out the Valjoux 7750 for being susceptible to damaging its date complication by setting it between 9pm and 3am. I however learned never to do this since many movements will be damaged in this way. What does Hans say? Thanks.
LOL, this last segment on GS makes me want it even more! In my honest opinion, the hard part of watchmaking is or at least should be accuracy, everything else is secondary. How someone achieves accuracy ideally shouldn't matter to a person who wears a watch to tell the right time. Legacy, heritage, craftsmanship etc. would mean nothing if the watch didn't keep time properly. Such a "watch" that didn't keep time well is just a lifeless piece of jewelry.
Very, very cool. Nice, interesting video. Frederico and Hans together is always a pleasure. Best regards from Germany.
Great video! Many thank to both.
Always a lot of learn.
Please go ahead with this style.
Fed, you are a great interviewer ！😀
But Viagra is temporary, and only last an hour max 😂
Spring Drive can go to multiple decades at least lol
I have a Grand Seiko, and I think the spring drive is genius. It's more on representing on how Japanese culture works, and how they were inspired by that and put it on a watch. But I understand the view you guys are taking it, can't be mad at that, and it's a fair point. It's pretty cool how you present your opinion on things.
I also disagree on the "you shouldn't pay for an expensive watch for time accuracy", the purpose of a watch is to tell the time cuz you might as well just get an expensive bracelet.
I'd expect perfection when watches goes to at least 6 figures 😂
This is a great video. Absolutely fascinating to listen to Hans. The information that he can give in a few minute is amazing. I would love to have a sit down conversation with him. Thank you.
Grand Seiko SD perfect balance between mechanical and electrical engineering :) Just because it is unnatural for a mechanical engineer to see something electric next to it doesn't mean that GS SD is unnatural!
Honestly you guys made Spring Drive sound very appealing.
Wow bloody hell 😳 great video thanks 😊Love 💘 Spring Drive
Great video, Fed!! Loved the back and forth!
Great video guys and thank you for sharing all this down to earth info.
Only thing I don't agree with is the Spring Drive, but I get your perspective. Otherwise, always a pleasure having Hans on the show. Therefore:
Liebe Grüße aus Österreich, Hans!
Best video. Fed! Can we have more q&a with Hans, please!
I always, has crushes it. Love the honesty!!!
After i serviced my Omega ploprof from the 1970’s at Omega. I went deepsea diving in Australia, America.. .works perfect.
Love watching and learning from Hans
We want more! Bring back Hans!
Please, bring Hans more often.
Years ago I had a Seiko kinetic watch. I’ve also owned citizen eco drives and battery powered quartz. I see spring drive as the same, a quartz watch - just a spring to power it instead of battery or solar or kinetic movement. It’s cool just like eco drive is cool, but it’s not comparable to the romance of a fully mechanical watch.
15:05 - Quote of the video! "I have utmost respect of those people, they... designing that thing. I just don't like it."
Can you guys should do a show on mechanical pocket watches? I would be glued to the screen.
The Grand Seiko new 9SA5 Hi-beat movement is a thing of beauty though. So far only offered in a limited edition solid gold model (already sold out, even at the eye-wateringly expensive MSRP). Hopefully it'll eventually be offered in stainless steel models at more accessible price points.
With a brand new escapement.
1. Best episode with Hans to date. Gimme more!
2. No customary wristwatch check...oops!
3. Fad eh? Interesting. Let's see how it plays out.
The COSC standard reminds me of how Standard and Poor's bond ratings up until 2010...in order to get the rating, a bind issuer had to pay to get rated. We all should know well how that conflict of interest worked out.
They both make things Hard to beat.
That was great guys! Fed was that a Panerai you were sporting?
Boy, I can listen to Hanzi all day 🧐
Great chat and as always interesting topics guys. Hans we all want you to stay around a long time, so please keep that cell phone off your heart.
I do agree about the GS thing! Well said Fed.
Yeah, definitely want more Hans!
Great show! very entertaining
I value a reliably accurate timepiece, so I look for a chronometer grade movement. It seems as though I will need to sell my watches after 15 years and buy new if the gears wear out like Hans says. +/- 20 sec per day is too much, might as well be a cheap Seiko nh35 at that point
I think you got the Spring Drive thing wrong, it is saying as if the spring drive is useless, but in reality it is great Engineering and it was so easy as you describe it to be then why no else thought of it, I wonder what your views would had been if the Swiss company would have developed Spring Drive then I think it would have been interesting to know your views, I suspect it would have been opposite. Otherwise a greet video as always.
At the end of the day the Japanese (Seiko), kicked the Swiss ass for accuracy back in the 60s with their mechanical movements and now they're out on their own with Spring drive, true innovation.
I must agree with Hans around the Seiko spring drive. After buying Zenith El Primero with cal. 400, and seeing that it runs constantly +0.5 s/d even with extreme activity, I wonder did it make any sense to put so much effort and money on designing such quartz hyprid, only to get - 1/+1 s/d? Only eventual benefit could be if the service interval could be extended for 10 years or more.
What an awesome and satisfactional video 🥰🥰🥰 Hans gets so emotional when he is diving deep into horology and important details of the watch, it's called master fanatizm. Very rare nowadays that you can watch on youtube two gentlemen that are so interesting and intelligent at the same time , and all the information is for free. Back in the day you'd have to purchase a magazine or a book to get the knowledge of the author's experience. I send you lots of respect Sir Federico and Meister Hans ♥️👌👌👌
Hans and Fed, i invite you to come to Brazil to test that theory! Thank you guys for the wonderfull video!
A few nights ago I had a dream that Hans and I were building a watch together inside an old abandoned church.
...easily one of the coolest dreams I ever had, better even than a flying dream.
Whether GS spring drive can be seen as natural or not is best left for each individual to decide, :).
I strongly favor GS Spring drive watches for these reasons:
1. It’s immune to positional variation so it stays accurate no matter HOW it is worn
2. It stays accurate within spec regardless of its age.
3. its case and dial quality are simply a lot better than comparably priced rivals.
GSs also have some serious issues though:
1. Many models are overly thick
2. Its bracelet fitment is inferior to Rolex
3. Its buckle quality is just plain lamentable.
Had it been quick to fix these issues, Rolex and Omega just get themselves a formidable challenger
Speaking of accuracy for high end artisan pieces like US 300.000 AP, etc.., I just don’t consider poor accuracy excusable in any circumstances. Credor Sonnerie and Minute Repeater are just as accurate as heavy duty GS divers like SBGA229 / 231.
What acceptable reasons are there that other Swiss high horology pieces can’t do the same ?
Also, what also disappoints me somewhat is that NO Swiss or German brand even attempts to exclusively put movement with superior accuracy in their pricier models.
GS already did that years ago.
Take for example 9R15, a hot rod version of 9R65 which comes with superior accuracy and slightly better decoration. This movement is (almost) always utilised in precious metals only.
Luxury cars (Mercedes and BMW) and electronics (IPhone) already did that whereby pricier models have superior features specific to them only.
Other than cost issue, I see no reason why it can’t be done.
USD 30.000 Rolex Submarine that is no more accurate than USD 6.000 Oyster Perpetual seems somewhat wrong to my eyes. Just IMHO here.
Always interesting on which watch a watchmaker wears(try saying that a few times really fast😏)
Love Hans!
Thanks! He's great!
@@FedericoTalksWatches You both are!
Spring Drive marries two disadvantages: making movement necessary to generate energy, yet still being quartz regulated. It’s just so one can introduce some level of mechanical complexity, generating appeal to the mechanical enthusiast. If you have quartz, then just go solar, and you’ve got a fantastically accurate watch for 200 bucks, that keeps going even if you don’t wear the watch for weeks.
Yes. More Hans Please!!! Maybe you can get him to start his own channel like John P, Fed!
This man is my hero
GS is killing it these days… can’t beat the 9F Quartz… and the Spring Drive is just amazing. 9F Quartz -/+ 3 seconds a year !!!!
Wrist watch check?!? I like both your pieces!
@frederico I really want to buy something from delray but it's really annoying that I have to keep converting from USD to CAD. Do you think you can add the feature to convert currency on the site?
OMG, I learned, I laughed, Fantastic!
Excellent video , thanks
Ask Hans: what do you think of Baume et Mercier Clifton Baumatic? The movement, the watch. Considering buying one as my first swiss mechanical timepiece. Thanks!
Best video so far Fed... Hans just branded the spring drive "viagra movement"... I see this name is sticking... Nice video...
So, is Hans able to service a GS Spring Drive watch? I assume he can service their normal mechanical and quartz watches, like their Hi Beat.
Yeah I'm not sold on Spring Drive but I respect the technology. Their 36k vph hi beats are delightful however
Hey Fed what's Hon's thoughts on the Powermatic 80 movement. I know he's not a fan of Japanese movement with plastic parts, but the P80 is using composite parts practically plastic.
Hans speaks and it's like a Zen Master just talking watches but it's much more deep.
Spring Drive - my head says that I like Spring Drive but my heart says that I Grand Seiko's hi-beat movement is somehow better and has more art to it. I think I'd go for a Hi-beat movement from Seiko if I was buying one so I guess I agree with Hans?
This episode is pure enjoyment to me! haha