I’m currently in the freedom model outpatient program. If you are struggling, look into this program. I can’t give this program enough praise! It will change your life. I promise you!
Awesome perspective on a major problem. I had heard from other sources that isolation and labeling an addict is bad, but never with the reasons given here. Giving someone the power that they have the ability to consciously choose their future instead of telling them they have a hopeless lifelong problem, and then helping them reacclimiate into society, I think is a powerful combination to end the addiction cycle. Thanks for a GREAT talk Steven, stay strong!
Telling them that they are addicts doesn't mean we are calling them crippled for life. It is just so to make them understand seriousness of their issue.
In all the hundreds and hundreds of people I have met in 12 Steps, I have not once met one member who felt "ashamed" of the disease model. Quite the contrary, it's the moral deficiency paradigm that shames them so I have no idea what you're on about.
@Chief Wonderful passage one of my favourite AA saving and changing lives for the better it works it really does . TED Talks just being paid to present . The trouble is as Recovering Alcoholics we need each other I listened to talks like this and read lots of books about Alcohol and Addiction. But not until I discovered the rooms that I am Seven years Sober it's a miracle. A very grateful member of the fellowship
exactly n key thing is it isn't actually like society acts within that mindset anyway...as they say similar to in some of freedom model podcasts...IF addicts are powerless/unable to choose etc- why can failing a drug test be a breach of parole? Why does falling off the waggon get you ostricised from NA? surely when u mostneed peoples help is when immediately after making a mistake...when your choice is try and move-on positively accepting it as a mistake or bc of being so guilt ridden and worried about the consequences of that mistake you are more scared than ever to confront reality etc so you seek to flee & escape it as much as possible by both continuing drug use & potentially staying out of te functional workd
Maybe we should listen to recovered addicts more often than those in suits and their labs who say they know better. Thumbs up! And I also recommend listening to Marc Lewis, a scientist and former addict, he has the same approach. I also have a feeling that people who strongly oppose Steven's words are those who are attached mentally to the concept of disease and don't want to give it up and feel like the responsibility is on them again. Although nothing is easy and once you're hooked on something, it will take efforts and mental strength to battle the addiction, I personally prefer the thought of being able to fight it myself once and for all than to feel helpless and forever addicted.
||||Great idea! Why don't you go to a few meeting and listen to the millions upon millions of recovered addicts who are now pillars of their community thanks to 12 Steps.
@@ronifraser 12 step programs have a failure rate of 90-95%. They are not a treatment they are a religion based on fear mongering, "If you leave the program, you'll end up dead." Yes, there are millions upon million of recovered addicts in the world but it's in no way the result of 12 step programs. This guy is spot on. There are two things you can never leave once you join, The Mafia and AA.
There's quite literally no difference between you thinking that you can fight it yourself and believing you have a disease that has to be arrested. No matter how it goes you are fighting it yourself. It's all in how you're framing it in your own mind
Same here. I feel almost stunned. Like do I feel upset because I don't feel capable of doing things the way he describes by myself, or upset that if I adopted his thinking, the few people left in my life that haven't quit talking to me would, and then what? I think it's a huge jump from one camp of thought to the other, but it's well worth researching further. I wonder where the studies are that he mentioned which are supposed to show such insanely high rates of recovery and low rates of relapse and what criteria they used to conclude this?
I’m in the same boat. I’m sober 18 years through AA and a friend turned me to the freedom model. Now I’m trying to get through the steps again but my new sponsor won’t get me to step unless I concede to my innermost self. Want to elaborate on your experience?
My biggest challenge with his argument is the impact the users lifestyle has on everyone around them until they overcome. The label doesn't matter. The behaviour and it's impact definitely does. I truly believe that the opposite of "addiction" is connection. The smartest of us have learned through a great deal of trial and error how to maintain compassion towards users (these are good people making different lifestyle choices to our own) but also maintain strongly held boundaries for ourselves until a users choices demonstrate that having them close is safe, mentally, emotionally, physically or financially for us too. Because we're worth it also. A relationship, any relationship has to be reciprocal. A person can love you deeply, be willing to forgive you, accept you, embrace you and build a life with you but not willing to have your "choices" or even your label or lack of label affect their own lane.
I have experienced an element of truth in what he says, and not. I couldn't stop on my own. I tried many times BEFORE thinking of myself as an addict. I once stopped using for nearly 3 months. It happened after finding a tribe of people that supported me in life, and that same group of people holding a gathering overseas. I wanted to connect with them there and I KNEW to do so I had to clean up my act and go to work to afford the trip. I was happy with my new choice and did extremely well. Then I relapsed. I suddenly needed local, physical help and had no one to help take care of me after a surgery. I started using again, thinking I could just stop. I told myself I would after 3 weeks, and 5 weeks later I was still using daily. I reached out for help from a leader in that group - a recovered addict. He sent me to NA. In that program, once I identified as an addict, I couldn't string more than about 30 days together without relapsing... They told me I had an incurable disease and one is too many and a thousands not enough and alcohol is a drug which would cause me to relapse. Funny how each time it was alcohol that lead me back to my drug of choice. I started acting like an addict and grew more miserable in recovery than I had ever been in active addiction. Sharing this made me a heretic. I became more isolated than before and the emotional pain I went through was nothing short of trauma. Likely relived stuff from my childhood. NA just didn't work for me. It turned me into an emotional mess and made it harder to quit using. I stopped looking for support and answers through recovery, where only their material is allowed, and I'm back to myself. I got strong in my choice to quit the substance I had problems with... Just yesterday I had drinks at a 4th of July party and my drug of choice was offered to me and I said no, I don't like who I become on it. So I have experienced a variety of manifestations with my addiction. When told I was powerless over it, I got worse. When told alcohol would lead me back, it did... So the power of suggestion did adversely affect me... But it was far more than just a choice to use because I liked it. I stopped liking it and wanted to quit, but was overcome by the obsession and compulsion to use. I would start the activity to use and know in the moment that I was going to do it and what the consequences would be. I would know I didn't really want it consciously, yet I'd watch myself do it anyway, KNOWING I would be upset with myself the moment I did it. I felt like I was on autopilot, heading towards a crash, knowing I was going to crash and just watching it happen as if I was paralyzed to take control. So on one hand yeah... The message can drive one deeper into addiction, but on the other... It's not as simple as you do it cuz you like it and you can just stop. I still have cravings. I just know where it takes me, so that one substance is my kryptonite... Rather than seeing myself as an addict, I see the fixation of my addiction as a substance that weakens me. Then I remain vigilant that alcohol and other drugs never get into addictive use... I have to hybrid these contrasting approaches and keep what works for me.
their podcast go into much more depth though where it's a bit more subtle than you 'just liking it' it's more about it being a preference which is slightly different...by their notion if you totally deprogram the mytholigising you can say yes and it not necessarily be a kryptonite IF you actual do prefer it...not that they encourage that i just mean that you wouldn't have to say no BECAUSE saying yes would break your resolve...you just have to keep your prioritise in check
What you just described is human psychology. It's idiocy to believe that any one approach to addiction is going to work for every human psychology. I'm glad you found your answer
I spent years using without any treatment. Never heard of meetings. And when I went through withdrawal it was no good at all and i stole to get that rush again and get feeling better. No one had to tell me id feel better I knew the best hit was when i was sick. This is very bias based on his experience. When i eventually read a NA book it was CRAZY. I was reading who id been all those years. It was likr i wrote part of the book. Its crazy like literally I hared using and couldn't ever stop. Reading others went through the same thing was a game changer. I was no longer alone and on the fringe I now had a community. And i don't know what treatment he went to..... This guy is half right half the time. I appreciate and understand him but he's basing everything hes saying with or without research on his own experience....
To each his own, treatment and N/A worked for me. And I was desperate and in a very sad state of affairs. I can't necessarily agree with him but I believe a multi prong approach is the best. I even added therapy to my List of support along with n/a and in & outpatient rehab
I tend to agree there. And getting clean and sober has countless different paths that get people there, but not all of them work for everyone. In this man's case, I think a cautious approach is needed when evaluating his strategy for getting clean - which seems to boil down to the concept that addiction can be overcome though self-will alone.
no problem is he only has 15minutes and is trying ot explain the whole book about the desease model- i won't deny that you got that help BUT because of the prevalance of disease model the ONLY community available to you when wishing to stop IS the NA community... But if this model was more prevalent- you would have the community, you would have the empathy and shared experience but WITHOUT you having to call yourself an addict...this is part of the problem the prevalance & monopoly of disease model & the practical consequence of this as well as the mental indoctrinating conseqwuence
I agree it is a choice, sometimes an easy choice, to escape the real negative feelings brought up by living on planet earth! When a person is diagnosed with a mental disorder, they may take on the label and think they cannot overcome it and get well. As a peer support worker I let peers know that their life can change, they may not always have depression or anxiety. Sometimes it is 'believing in yourself' or the higher power and changing your situation, learning coping skills and positive self talk, that takes away anxiety or depression. When life is better and the person happy or content, medication and drugs are not required. Though I know that mental disorders are sometimes helped by drugs or medication.
I am am addict and I’m studying addiction treatment... the AA model works for some. This mentality works for others. Those that are naysaying these words...AA worked for you. It didn’t work for others. Brains are different. Be open minded and kind.
I'm glad you said to keep an open mind. I tried AA for a while and gave in an honest effort, but I found that it wasn't for me. After some research and advice from my therapist, I found something called SMART Recovery. It's a peer based support group, but isn't a 12 step problem. I find it works for me. I have never bad mouthed AA. Not once. Even though it didn't work for me, it's helped so many people regain their lives. I can't put down something that has done this.
Exactly that. People should keep searching if something doesn't work for them. To bad mouth other forms of recovery methods or to influence doing that I'm not so sure if but either way if someone finds what they need to get them off the thing that is ruining there life then that is a only a good thing.
absolutely right- and i've been to a couple of meetings and really appreciate thr sentiment BUT the problem is the imbalance because what exposure do we have on a large scale that their IS any other method than AA/NA etc?
I total understand what this guy is saying. U don’t label a smoker an addict for the rest of his life so why do u label a drug or alcohol addict an addict for the rest of his life. You basically box urself in with this mindset and this mindset is what makes u stay in the place of being An addict forever. An AA did not work for me or the 12 steps. That program needs to be updated. Ppl also need to be open minded about other ways of getting treatment to recover other then just AA or NA.. it’s not a one program fits all.
Easily the best talk on addiction I've ever heard, by far. I wish there were more people as insightful regarding addiction chose to speak out. I wish I had watched this 20 years ago before being polluted with the defeatest disease/12 step doctrine
Great talk. Draws parallels with over-diagnosis of mental health disorders. Perhaps we should be cautious of accepting these labels that for some, valididates their behavior and makes it seem that they are destined to be ill for the rest of their lives. Belief is powerful and humans are resilient with more strength than they may know.
This has been happened to me. Before I want to rehab center I could stop using by myself without any help from anyone,but once I went to rehab center my mind change a lot. The stories of addiction, relapse prevention,mental disease etc kept my mind in confusion. Not knowing anything was better for me, truth to be told. Now there is a fear inside me that I can't stop using without any help from other's. So there is good reason to join rehab who works for them but for me it wasn't really a very good reason.
Someone asked me in the reply and comments how do we talk to our own cells. Well for addiction it helps to talk out load so the cells can hear you. And theyll respond to what you say. Yout the boss of your body. You need to believe that this will work. Tell yourself how much your really grateful for being there try telling your body its already healed and have gratitude. And faith xxx
i totally agree with you here. i really think its the belief that its really addictive that affects how your going to feel. also I talk to the cells of my body. that seems to help to.
@@tagaway6173 well you speak to them out load and give them love and guidence that you can give them to get better. Your cells in the body listen to everything you say x
Bro wish I had heard this years ago dude makes sense. I neber went to rehab did drugs form 14 til 35 10 months clean but just the idea of what he’s saying make sense. Once went to a methadone clinic and ppl were in there forever wqs the worse thing I did cause that’s when I started mixing drugs so he makes a valid point
A separate study published by the CDC and the National Institute on Drug Abuse in 2020 found 3 out of 4 people who experience addiction eventually recover. "So that's huge, you know, 75%," Kelly said. "I think it kind of goes against our cultural perception that people never get better."
It is the mainstream disease narrative and the AA treatment system that are contributing to the needless deaths of many people. But I can't say anything to convince you of anything if you aren't willing to look at the evidence. That's for you to deal with. If you won't look at the evidence, there is nothing to discuss. You can start by looking at the research that has established that believing in the disease model of addiction is one of the two strongest factors that lead to relapse. You can also read The Biology of Desire by Marc Lewis where he uses his lifelong research experience to clearly show that it is not a disease. You can read Stanton Peele's work or Lance M. Dodes' book The Sober Truth or Gene M. Heyman's book Addiction: A Disorder of Choice. You can check out Dr. Carl Hart's website. Or not. Your choice.
I suppose it would help to understand what a disease is and it's use in relation to addiction. Disease;a disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, especially one that produces specific signs or symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury. Seems quite obvious to me that addiction is a disease. Or perhaps you don't think diabetes is either. As to the meanderings of others...no need, I have done my homework. Might I also suggest pointing out problems without offering solutions does little good.
How could freely chosen human behavior possibly be considered a disease? Do you think extreme skiing is a disease? Or speeding with a car? And who decides what's a "disorder of function"? According to what? Solutions? I can point out plenty of solutions: 1.Stop telling people they have a disease if they don't. This itself goes a long, long way and is in itself a large part of the solution. It's not simply "pointing out a problem", it's already working on the problem, considering the fact that *belief* is of the essence here (as I mentioned, belief in the disease model is a strong predictor of "relapse"). By the way, why do you think the mainstream "professionals" spend so much time "pointing out the problem" and yelling that addiction is a disease. Are you bothered by that too? If you aren't, they you aren't being very consistent. 2.Tell people they are in control. 3.If people need help with adjusing their behavior, then they can get that help from people who empower them, such as the Saint Jude Retreat or SMART Recovery, both of which have a much, much higher rate of "recovery" than the alternatives. Or so-called "brief interventions" where you simply check on a person to see how they're doing every now and then: very cheap and very effective.
I work in a rehab facility and when someone says "I can stop anytime." I always respond with "youre right. What's stopped you?" I've found management isn't too keen on approaches that differ from the disease model.
Very interesting perspective. I have noticed and felt it was counter productive the powerlessness some programs teach people dealing with addiction and the shame put on users. It keeps people in victim mode and shame mode. I've often wondered how can that help???? My son struggles with addiction and has for some years now. Knowing the philosophy of this program, maybe he would be willing to go through it because it empowers people.
SMART Recovery and Hello Sunday Morning are empowering programs. I've been a fan of Mr. Slate and Stanton Peele for quite awhile now, because they echoed the beliefs I already had. I feel the 12 Step ideology has done so much harm to our society, and it takes some serious thinking outside the box to change how you look at this entire issue. What? I might not be an addict for the rest of my life? My "disease" isn't in the parking lot doing pushups so the next time I use, it's stronger and harder to beat? If I just shift my thinking about all this, I can make these changes myself? How is this possible??? But it IS possible, and it's a lot healthier than feeling powerless and being in an organization that tells you you're going to be an addict for the rest of your life, that you're going to have triggers that will make you crave your drug, that you'll never be able to let your guard down because your disease is always working to overtake you and make you use again. But what if we won't? What if I can simply drive by a liquor store now and not be triggered because I don't see myself as an addict? What if I have changed the way I see alcohol and my relationship with it is not one of fear, but one of normalcy? It took some time for me to shift my perceptions because the 12 Step/disease model is ubiquitous in our society and that's sometimes a difficult thing to shrug off. But if you can drop everything you've heard or been taught, as Mr. Slate suggests, you can begin to rebuild with the knowledge that YOU CAN CHANGE. If we're taught one particular way, one particular truth, our entire lives, it can be hard to wrap our heads around the possibility that it might not be the best thing, might not actually be a truth. Personally, I think there was a time that AA was a good thing...be we have evolved and grown and changed as a species and now I think it does deep harm. The mind is a powerful, powerful thing. It can accomplish amazing feats. In a very literal way, we create in our lives what we believe in our minds.
Ah, you have to fall back on the labels. See, it's impossible to discuss this with someone who is in a 12 Step program, because they can't wrap their heads around anything other than what they've been told. Oh, please..."your disease is in the parking lot, making itself stronger". This was one of the phrases I heard most often when I was in AA. I did work the steps, and they can absolutely be a pathway for change, just as anything can be.
Mr. Shoobridge, your language and message betrays with every word the harshness of this failed method! "The Big Book" of AA and the modern 12-step fad of a program to fix every conceivable "ism" is against the stated objective of AA. What YOU personally think or believe about whether a client of yours is a "true" addict or not and "really wanting recovery or not" holds NO actual power! It's dangerous mind-reading on your part and sounds so religiously judgmental!! The modern day, multi-billion dollar rehab industry directly benefits from an almost guarranteed relapse rate! I'm recovering finally from a decade of first-hand experience in an almost fatal, ever worsening loop of 12-step meetings. I kept attempting to comply with "the program" and a lifestyle of recovery which simply wasn't helpful for the substance use disorder I was suffering from. This patriarchial, outdated, non- Scientific program for treating white, alcoholic men 100 years ago is dangerous and no longer appropriate in the modern day treatment of substance use disorder!!!
I’m a member of aa but I think this guy has some really valid points and thoughts on addiction which I enjoyed, but I don’t think there’s necessarily a right or wrong way of looking at it. I think people need to overcome their addiction in whatever way works for them there’s not just one way. Addiction is by definition an illness. If you look up the term ill and read through fully, you will see there listed characteristics of addiction, a mental illness with physical presentations. Further evidence suggests it is often progressive, chronic, and can be fatal so if that doesn’t qualify it as a disease then I don’t know what does.
I am a recovery addict and I dont agree. Alot of the things he says happens in treatment, never happened when I was there. I know in my heart that treatment saved my life.
@@johncardono8056 I went to a local rehab. I paid in installments. I joke around and say some people paid their way through college, but I paid my way through rehab, haha.
He's simply explaining his experience. The problem is he's mistaken that with what it's like for everyone. He's making a bad case for causation when it's merely correlation that happened to him
The argument on both sides of this isn't even needed. It's simple, if it works for YOU stick with it. We all don't operate on the same belief systems. If A.A works good ! If you require a different approach, then use it. Simple !
Very interesting Steven. I will order your book. I am about to start helping at an addition organisation due to my interest in the field of addiction and I am glad I have stumbled upon this perspective as it's sure made me think. Thank you.
I know I am late to the party but just watched this and am in addiction counseling...could you post some of your sources...particularly the 9/10 recovery without treatment?
This is fascinating because I'm just now concidering going back into rehab cuz I've been using and am convinced I can't stop on my own but he's right. I didn't feel like a real addict until after I went through rehab and if I do go back I could lose my son. Do I really need to go or can I stop on my own and not set myself back 2 years in recovery. Am I in denial or just have no self control?
I like his approach. I was addicted to drugs and alcohol 20 years ago, i was an out of control daily user. I broke free with 12 step recovery but I have since become a moderate drinker, after 19 years of abstinence. Go figure.
@nature2rule If you've never heard of a 12 step program killing someone then you haven't looked very far. Watch the documentary "The 13th Step." Then tell me how the predators in the rooms that stalk and kill vulnerable young women aren't a product of the programs.
St Jude retreat specializes in people who have been thru multiple treatments without success and they allow third parties to verify their success rates. What constitutes a “true addict/alcoholic” is completely subjective. I quit without treatment or peer support and I can guarantee my drinking was worse than tens of thousands of AA members. So sick of this “if u did it without the steps you weren’t a TRUE addict/alcoholic”. The no true Scotsmen fallacy is one of many employed by indoctrinated steppers. 12 steppers and “treatment” society are terrified of the truth.
When WE USE IT...WE REALLY.HAVE THE...POWER!!!! BUT THERE ARE FACTORS TO ADDICTION...WE ARE CHASING A DREAM...A DIFFERENT FEELING OR A RELIEF FROM A FEELING...BUT WHO IS REALLY IN CONTROL? Since we ar all DIFFERENT...WE ACCEPT AND OR DENY PROBLEMS IN OUT LIVES..
3 of my kids have not gotten over it. Daughter age 50, son age 40 another son 35. Daughter had many treatments. None of sons did. Ruined, painful. lost lives. 😣😥
This is really interesting. I can see the psychological basis for it in that rehab and addiction groups might effectively prime people with a particular mentality and create certain social norms that people internalise (e.g. that if you have a bad day, you will want to drink/whatever). The concept of being 'powerless' never sat well with me, surely you want people to believe that they are more, not less powerful than their addiction? Then, as the speaker says, if they relapse, it is characterised as a choice for which the user is accountable, not an inevitability that is beyond their control.
ive been at that point BUT im not sure i needed purely addiction treatment...I needed mental health treatment, i needed help to change my routine so i could imagine other ways of spending my time and i needed help with the actual physical dependency...BUT that treatment in a perfect world wouldnt have to include the disease formulae that says im an addict for life...
Yup! My daughters got worse. One daughter is dead. The other is being drugged legally by her mental health doctor. He's her drug dealer now. It's horrible. Legal but not lawful.
I'm open to this fellow's idea, however I'm a little skeptical. I'm not a fan of the 12 step model, and I completely agree that it's counterproductive to tell people that they're powerless. On the flip side, this gent is assuming causation with correlation - that rehab is *creating* chronic relapse. I need to see data to be convinced.
I wonder if this is the same for those that have a mental health disorder. I know some that were "addicted" , and they quit pretty easy, when they were ready to quit, and don't struggle, BUT they don't have a mental health issue.
the group he is part of wrote about this in their book. from memory, they made a large distinction between "causes" and "reasons". there was some statistic about not all addicts being mentally ill and not all mentally ill people having addictions. So they said that mental illness can't CAUSE addiction, however, somebody with a mental illness might have their emotional problems as a REASON that they overuse a drug. It's like if a sibling died, so you decided to become a doctor. your sibling's death wouldnt cause you to become a doctor, as many people who arent doctors have dead siblings, but the death might be one of your many reasons to become a doctor. hopefully that makes sense? having a reason implies consciousness and thought and feelings, but having a cause implies force. And obviously if you have a mental illness that makes you feel absolutely terrible and hopeless all the time, that might influence your choice to remain addicted or not, but plenty of people with mental illnesses get over their addictions, (even if they continue to feel very terrible about life after they have fully recovered from their addiction)
@@Bellerose.Daisy.Danica congrats , I stopped drinking with the help of the easy way book im three years sober after 20 + yrs of drinking . The waking up app has done wonders for my wellbeing , maybe try some meditation now that ur clean
i think you are right and wrong. Your case is like mine. When i was 19 i loved partying and blacked out and committed a crime. Bam I was an addict... Although I just drank on weekends. I was told over and over I was powerless so i began to drink. I havve gone on benders and have withdrawals. But after the withdrawal I am good. I love drugs but now I am at a point I am choosing to cut down or stop. Was a great option, not really now
This is true to point, yes the label itself "addict" becomes your identity for many, this is why I hated AA, but he just makes it sound so simple.The brain goes through extreme chemical changes with drug abuse and many times its permanent damage, and help is needed by doctors, not rehab. The brain has to recondition itself to live in the real world, and the only way that is done is by replacing your substance (such as alcohol) in the setting you drank, lets say a rootbeer, when you actively keep doing this it will eventually create a new habit, and when you go into that place of past drinking the craving will be gone for booze, and the rootbeer is enough. A huge study was done about this.
The kid fell, broke his leg and wrist, but he gets up and runs around the jungle gym like nothing happened. Wow, doesn't even need treatment. Abuse, like a fall, maybe minor or significantly severe and to group them as one is really, really dishonest. I can go to the casino and take it or leave it. Someone else? I can have a beer or two and walk away. Addiction or compulsive behavior occurs along a spectrum among a diverse striatum of people. So please end all addiction and compulsive use/behaviors with your revolutionary model to end 100,000 deaths a year, stop the ultra-processed obesity epidemic. You can sure the world. So stop criticizing and judging whatever industry you're criticizing and give us the magic answer. Only you can solve this problem!
That sounds like a lot until you consider how many people are using massive amounts of drugs. Every single death is a tragedy but that's a small minority of heavy users.
addiction treament creates addicts. how do addicts first come into contact with treatment options??? they werent addicts before. seriously screwed up opinions from this guy.
If you are truly chemically dependent, you would understand that at a point , the physical withdrawal is not what’s horrifying anymore. It’s the mental. The sheer thought of having to get out of bed in the morning bc your brain stops producing dopamine. You have no ambition or motivation to open your eyes and get out of bed. It seems like the most difficult thing in the entire world the thought of having to get up, brush your teeth, take a shower and - go to work? That’s the terrifying part of this. These chemicals literally take away your motivation for living.
You may want to tell your buddies in TFM to get real. I can disagree if I like about workshop methods and payment. Shunning and blocking me is as bad as AA it is utter greed!!!!!!!!!!
The information & statistics given at the beginning of this talk are extremely inaccurate. The purpose of identifying as an addict is also being misrepresented.
People make choices. Ive been on my own since i was 16. I had to work. Mommy and daddy Never babyed me. I learned real quick no one was going to pay my rent. Put me on there cell phone plan. Put me on there insurance plan. And feed me. That was my choice. Im 60. Ive never once asked anyone for help. I learned a trade and worked hard. 60. 70. hour work weeks. What i see today is these kids want it all handed to them.
Do not! And I mean -- NEVER -- participate in that all too common ritual of stating, "Numerous studies show this to be true..." without naming a single title of a paper and/or the research author. You've now by default made me believe you're either using embellishment or outright lying to push a narrative. Give credence and some credibility to your claim by offering at least one research study, if there's so many as you've just stated. Otherwise, just state the hypothesis or research question. I actually like your point but to not provide the work showing it is beyond off-putting. I've been in this field for a while and can state from experience, observation and research that 1 in 10 people diagnosed w a severe addiction to a substance that have been abusing for at least 5-yrs, which is the standard measurement of time to determine if a person is considered a long-term addict stops using, with or without treatment. 10% success rates do not exist. Period. I call BS.
I don't have much knowledge about the subject. But during most of the video you just bashed the current model of treatments in rehab and only at the end you mentioned freedom model. I think telling addicts that they are addicts makes reality sink in and they would try their best to avoid relapse. A lot of things in this video didn't make sense to me like the part you compared addiction with homosexuality and feminism. We can't normalise addiction for the greater good of society. The freedom model you boasted about might have worked for you and few others.
but who beyond those few others have had the chance of the freedom model? 'They would try their best to avoid a relapse' BUT if they DO relapse they are powerless, defeated & disease ridden and IF they manage to get clean again they are facing this risk for life but IF you go by this rationale and genuinely manage to deprogram the disease conditioning then a relapse is a choice- it's your responsibility not this visceral power if the drug or the force of an incurable disease
He's not saying to normalize addiction. He's making the true statement that the concept of addiction as presented by the 12 steps is inherently flawed and damaging. Members of AA themselves will admit that the program has a low success rate. Addicts are completely aware of reality, unless they have a separate mental health issue that disconnects them from it. When I was using I knew fully what the consequences were, and I continued to make that choice until it wasn't what I wanted anymore. I was never powerless over my decision making. 12 step recovery's deepest principle is that the individual is powerless and sick. The 12 steps are akin to faith healing. People who go into treatment deserve counseling, medication, and community, not continued stigmatization, abuse, and judgement. I've seen the 12 step feast or famine (complete abstinence vs. heavy inescapable use) approach kill multiple people. Sure, it works for some, and I respect that, but it should absolutely not be the de facto treatment model.
I tried doing it myself, could not do it. Treatment and AA saved my life honestly, it’s not what this guy is making it out to be, then again I understand it doesn’t work for everyone. To each his own.
from what I can tell they dont actually dispute that it CAN help BUT the biggest point for me is for addicts what alternative is there? Either we can go it totally alone/alone with subs OR only other on is na/aa module saying u have this disease for life... what if you had the best of na/aa - support group, community, discussion, effictively talk therapy BUT without the mythologising of addiction, without the life-long disease outlook?
Who paid for all the treatment. I hope that you were not one of those people that decided to start doing drugs then have Other people pay for you to live and get well. Im sure you had good insurance.
Absolute rubbish, I’m afraid. I’m 18 months clean and I have seen thousands of people share the same thing: we addicts have an inner emptiness (a neurotransmission disease - in the mesocortical pathway, likely). That needs treating with substances OR a spiritual programme of abstinence. Which can also be described as a re-wiring of those pathways through neurological-plastic potential in repetition of behaviours to do with self/identity/purpose/fulfilment/joy and peace. This is not new, and is not disputable. There are now countless studies proving that the addict’s brain is different - not just users or heavy users of substances, but those with a neurotransmission disease. See anything by Dr Robert Lefever for information on this.
Except the behavior of drug taking always predates the brain changes. There is zero pre existing neurological variant that separates addicts from non addicts. Some people simply perceive drugs are more pleasurable than others. Not to mention, the brain changes that do occur with addiction can’t be pathologized as “disease” at any point. Marc Lewis built a strong case for it being parallel to learning in his “Biology of Desire”. I’ll never understand why even former substance abusers are so infatuated with it being a disease.
Picks an chooses his studies and some of the issues he brought up was quite ridiculous addiction is a prediction and the withdrawal worsens each time you stop and beyond a flu sighting the Vietnam coming home to no connection to the drug environment is epic an if your wanting to recover i would skip this video it will give you a false sense of everything sorry but give this info to a addict won't help
This guy is a living embodiment of mistaking correlation with causation. I would think someone who pimps the idea that defeating addiction is 100% an inside job would understand that you attending a rehab didn't CAUSE you to get worse. YOU caused you to get worse. YOU learned the wrong lessons. Adopted the wrong practices. Hung out with and idealized the wrong people. You reinterpreted yourself incorrectly. That ISN'T what identifying as an addict is supposed to do. How can you simultaneously present the argument that your thinking is what will get you clean but your experience in rehab is what will make you an addict?
You don't have to live the label, but your experience is NOT the norm. The label doesn't continue the addiction. There IS a change neurologically in the brain regardless of the persons own perception. You are applying a unique experience that is NOT the norm. Sorry, you are harming the reality of addiction.
Sorry mate, this is a lesser helpful Ted talks about addiction, in fact could be more harmful, addiction is a disease, fact, period. Step one reads we were powerless over our addiction.. "were" being the operative word..
Only an addict would feel the need to prove he or she wasn't one. Normal people never seek inventive ways of proving to others that they aren't addicts.
Kris R Well your original comment/question, "Who told you that?" comes across very snide and passive aggressive. As if I was just parroting something that someone else told me. My statement is an original statement based on personal experiences with addiction and recovery, as well as my several years of experience carrying a caseload in a residential treatment center. This argument that suggesting to someone they are an addict makes them become an addict is a dangerous idea. Many people never get the help they need and die of their addictions. Often diagnosed by a coroner as heart failure and stroke. The ADA, CDC, WHO, AMA, DSM-V and the hundreds of Dr's names mentioned in the beginning and the back of tbe book, Dr Silkworth, Dr Bob, Dr Drew, Dr Phil, Dr Oz, Dr Fricken Suess, ALLLLLL Declare that addiction is a disease/disorder that needs to be treated, many times in a medical setting, and then this guy wants to say they're all wrong. Pardon me for being skeptical of his argument.
According to Prochaska's Stages of Change Model, nothing happens until a person contemplates the idea that they may have a problem. If a person doesn't figure out that they have a problem, then there is never a reason to change. That's why shining the light on addiction is so important. This guy wants to treat addiction like a little scratch on the knee. WRONG! Subtance Use Disorder needs quick, early, and thorough intervention, with ongoing aftercare. Heroin use is out of control and people are overdosing in record numbers. We can't put a bandaid on it and move on. Wishful thinking and wonderful optimism, but not the reality and nature of how addiction needs to be approached.
Sorry kiddo. Your argument is full of holes. You are generalizing from your experience. The man wearing sandals thinks the whole world is covered with leather. Of course some people don't have addiction and get mixed in with those who do. We know much about the mechanisms involved in the disease. Also your characterization of treatment is weird.
I’m currently in the freedom model outpatient program. If you are struggling, look into this program. I can’t give this program enough praise! It will change your life. I promise you!
Awesome perspective on a major problem. I had heard from other sources that isolation and labeling an addict is bad, but never with the reasons given here. Giving someone the power that they have the ability to consciously choose their future instead of telling them they have a hopeless lifelong problem, and then helping them reacclimiate into society, I think is a powerful combination to end the addiction cycle. Thanks for a GREAT talk Steven, stay strong!
Telling them that they are addicts doesn't mean we are calling them crippled for life. It is just so to make them understand seriousness of their issue.
This enlightening. I think the disease model really shames people whereas this feels empowering. Thanks.
In all the hundreds and hundreds of people I have met in 12 Steps, I have not once met one member who felt "ashamed" of the disease model. Quite the contrary, it's the moral deficiency paradigm that shames them so I have no idea what you're on about.
NA is NOT shame based !!! It is about "FREEDOM FROM ACTIVE ADDICTION" giving us a fabulous new way to live !!!
@Chief Wonderful passage one of my favourite AA saving and changing lives for the better it works it really does . TED Talks just being paid to present . The trouble is as Recovering Alcoholics we need each other I listened to talks like this and read lots of books about Alcohol and Addiction. But not until I discovered the rooms that I am Seven years Sober it's a miracle. A very grateful member of the fellowship
exactly n key thing is it isn't actually like society acts within that mindset anyway...as they say similar to in some of freedom model podcasts...IF addicts are powerless/unable to choose etc- why can failing a drug test be a breach of parole? Why does falling off the waggon get you ostricised from NA? surely when u mostneed peoples help is when immediately after making a mistake...when your choice is try and move-on positively accepting it as a mistake or bc of being so guilt ridden and worried about the consequences of that mistake you are more scared than ever to confront reality etc so you seek to flee & escape it as much as possible by both continuing drug use & potentially staying out of te functional workd
Maybe we should listen to recovered addicts more often than those in suits and their labs who say they know better.
Thumbs up! And I also recommend listening to Marc Lewis, a scientist and former addict, he has the same approach.
I also have a feeling that people who strongly oppose Steven's words are those who are attached mentally to the concept of disease and don't want to give it up and feel like the responsibility is on them again. Although nothing is easy and once you're hooked on something, it will take efforts and mental strength to battle the addiction, I personally prefer the thought of being able to fight it myself once and for all than to feel helpless and forever addicted.
||||Great idea! Why don't you go to a few meeting and listen to the millions upon millions of recovered addicts who are now pillars of their community thanks to 12 Steps.
@@ronifraser 12 step programs have a failure rate of 90-95%. They are not a treatment they are a religion based on fear mongering, "If you leave the program, you'll end up dead." Yes, there are millions upon million of recovered addicts in the world but it's in no way the result of 12 step programs. This guy is spot on. There are two things you can never leave once you join, The Mafia and AA.
@@Natnast69 Thanks for telling the truth, Nat.
There's quite literally no difference between you thinking that you can fight it yourself and believing you have a disease that has to be arrested.
No matter how it goes you are fighting it yourself. It's all in how you're framing it in your own mind
@@Natnast69
You're the one spreading fear here.
Wow this guy speaks against basically everything I’ve ever read or been taught. I don’t know how I feel about it but it got me thinking.
Same here. I feel almost stunned. Like do I feel upset because I don't feel capable of doing things the way he describes by myself, or upset that if I adopted his thinking, the few people left in my life that haven't quit talking to me would, and then what? I think it's a huge jump from one camp of thought to the other, but it's well worth researching further. I wonder where the studies are that he mentioned which are supposed to show such insanely high rates of recovery and low rates of relapse and what criteria they used to conclude this?
I’m in the same boat. I’m sober 18 years through AA and a friend turned me to the freedom model. Now I’m trying to get through the steps again but my new sponsor won’t get me to step unless I concede to my innermost self. Want to elaborate on your experience?
What do you mean by “concede to your most inner self”?@@SamuelJDavis
A parent watching a kid fall on the playground. I love that analogy.
My biggest challenge with his argument is the impact the users lifestyle has on everyone around them until they overcome. The label doesn't matter. The behaviour and it's impact definitely does.
I truly believe that the opposite of "addiction" is connection.
The smartest of us have learned through a great deal of trial and error how to maintain compassion towards users (these are good people making different lifestyle choices to our own) but also maintain strongly held boundaries for ourselves until a users choices demonstrate that having them close is safe, mentally, emotionally, physically or financially for us too.
Because we're worth it also. A relationship, any relationship has to be reciprocal.
A person can love you deeply, be willing to forgive you, accept you, embrace you and build a life with you but not willing to have your "choices" or even your label or lack of label affect their own lane.
I have experienced an element of truth in what he says, and not. I couldn't stop on my own. I tried many times BEFORE thinking of myself as an addict. I once stopped using for nearly 3 months. It happened after finding a tribe of people that supported me in life, and that same group of people holding a gathering overseas. I wanted to connect with them there and I KNEW to do so I had to clean up my act and go to work to afford the trip. I was happy with my new choice and did extremely well. Then I relapsed.
I suddenly needed local, physical help and had no one to help take care of me after a surgery. I started using again, thinking I could just stop. I told myself I would after 3 weeks, and 5 weeks later I was still using daily. I reached out for help from a leader in that group - a recovered addict. He sent me to NA.
In that program, once I identified as an addict, I couldn't string more than about 30 days together without relapsing...
They told me I had an incurable disease and one is too many and a thousands not enough and alcohol is a drug which would cause me to relapse. Funny how each time it was alcohol that lead me back to my drug of choice. I started acting like an addict and grew more miserable in recovery than I had ever been in active addiction. Sharing this made me a heretic. I became more isolated than before and the emotional pain I went through was nothing short of trauma. Likely relived stuff from my childhood. NA just didn't work for me. It turned me into an emotional mess and made it harder to quit using.
I stopped looking for support and answers through recovery, where only their material is allowed, and I'm back to myself. I got strong in my choice to quit the substance I had problems with... Just yesterday I had drinks at a 4th of July party and my drug of choice was offered to me and I said no, I don't like who I become on it.
So I have experienced a variety of manifestations with my addiction. When told I was powerless over it, I got worse. When told alcohol would lead me back, it did... So the power of suggestion did adversely affect me...
But it was far more than just a choice to use because I liked it. I stopped liking it and wanted to quit, but was overcome by the obsession and compulsion to use. I would start the activity to use and know in the moment that I was going to do it and what the consequences would be. I would know I didn't really want it consciously, yet I'd watch myself do it anyway, KNOWING I would be upset with myself the moment I did it. I felt like I was on autopilot, heading towards a crash, knowing I was going to crash and just watching it happen as if I was paralyzed to take control.
So on one hand yeah... The message can drive one deeper into addiction, but on the other... It's not as simple as you do it cuz you like it and you can just stop. I still have cravings. I just know where it takes me, so that one substance is my kryptonite... Rather than seeing myself as an addict, I see the fixation of my addiction as a substance that weakens me. Then I remain vigilant that alcohol and other drugs never get into addictive use... I have to hybrid these contrasting approaches and keep what works for me.
came to same conclusion by melding this with Life Process Model of addiction
their podcast go into much more depth though where it's a bit more subtle than you 'just liking it' it's more about it being a preference which is slightly different...by their notion if you totally deprogram the mytholigising you can say yes and it not necessarily be a kryptonite IF you actual do prefer it...not that they encourage that i just mean that you wouldn't have to say no BECAUSE saying yes would break your resolve...you just have to keep your prioritise in check
What you just described is human psychology.
It's idiocy to believe that any one approach to addiction is going to work for every human psychology.
I'm glad you found your answer
I loved this talk. It creates a new perspective and gives the power back to the individual. 💗
I spent years using without any treatment. Never heard of meetings. And when I went through withdrawal it was no good at all and i stole to get that rush again and get feeling better. No one had to tell me id feel better I knew the best hit was when i was sick. This is very bias based on his experience. When i eventually read a NA book it was CRAZY. I was reading who id been all those years. It was likr i wrote part of the book. Its crazy like literally I hared using and couldn't ever stop. Reading others went through the same thing was a game changer. I was no longer alone and on the fringe I now had a community. And i don't know what treatment he went to..... This guy is half right half the time. I appreciate and understand him but he's basing everything hes saying with or without research on his own experience....
To each his own, treatment and N/A worked for me. And I was desperate and in a very sad state of affairs. I can't necessarily agree with him but I believe a multi prong approach is the best. I even added therapy to my List of support along with n/a and in & outpatient rehab
I tend to agree there. And getting clean and sober has countless different paths that get people there, but not all of them work for everyone. In this man's case, I think a cautious approach is needed when evaluating his strategy for getting clean - which seems to boil down to the concept that addiction can be overcome though self-will alone.
no problem is he only has 15minutes and is trying ot explain the whole book about the desease model- i won't deny that you got that help BUT because of the prevalance of disease model the ONLY community available to you when wishing to stop IS the NA community...
But if this model was more prevalent- you would have the community, you would have the empathy and shared experience but WITHOUT you having to call yourself an addict...this is part of the problem the prevalance & monopoly of disease model & the practical consequence of this as well as the mental indoctrinating conseqwuence
Read the freedom model before saying that. It will totally demolish anything you've ever heard about addiction.
I agree it is a choice, sometimes an easy choice, to escape the real negative feelings brought up by living on planet earth!
When a person is diagnosed with a mental disorder, they may take on the label and think they cannot overcome it and get well. As a peer support worker I let peers know that their life can change, they may not always have depression or anxiety. Sometimes it is 'believing in yourself' or the higher power and changing your situation, learning coping skills and positive self talk, that takes away anxiety or depression. When life is better and the person happy or content, medication and drugs are not required. Though I know that mental disorders are sometimes helped by drugs or medication.
I am am addict and I’m studying addiction treatment... the AA model works for some. This mentality works for others. Those that are naysaying these words...AA worked for you. It didn’t work for others. Brains are different. Be open minded and kind.
Rachel delighted you have found something that works for you. Super proud of you 👌
I'm glad you said to keep an open mind. I tried AA for a while and gave in an honest effort, but I found that it wasn't for me. After some research and advice from my therapist, I found something called SMART Recovery. It's a peer based support group, but isn't a 12 step problem. I find it works for me. I have never bad mouthed AA. Not once. Even though it didn't work for me, it's helped so many people regain their lives. I can't put down something that has done this.
Exactly that. People should keep searching if something doesn't work for them. To bad mouth other forms of recovery methods or to influence doing that I'm not so sure if but either way if someone finds what they need to get them off the thing that is ruining there life then that is a only a good thing.
absolutely right- and i've been to a couple of meetings and really appreciate thr sentiment BUT the problem is the imbalance because what exposure do we have on a large scale that their IS any other method than AA/NA etc?
Most people it doesn’t work. The open approach to addiction works better
I total understand what this guy is saying. U don’t label a smoker an addict for the rest of his life so why do u label a drug or alcohol addict an addict for the rest of his life. You basically box urself in with this mindset and this mindset is what makes u stay in the place of being An addict forever. An AA did not work for me or the 12 steps. That program needs to be updated. Ppl also need to be open minded about other ways of getting treatment to recover other then just AA or NA.. it’s not a one program fits all.
Easily the best talk on addiction I've ever heard, by far. I wish there were more people as insightful regarding addiction chose to speak out. I wish I had watched this 20 years ago before being polluted with the defeatest disease/12 step doctrine
can see how that could be true.. if the more they focus on it being a problem the more it's unstoppable..
WOW! What an AWESOME MESSAGE -i have experienced similar things & agree "society" has made it worse
This was so damn refreshing. Thank you friend.
I really resonated with this! I’ve never heard any of this before! Thank you!🙏🏻
Great talk. Draws parallels with over-diagnosis of mental health disorders. Perhaps we should be cautious of accepting these labels that for some, valididates their behavior and makes it seem that they are destined to be ill for the rest of their lives. Belief is powerful and humans are resilient with more strength than they may know.
such a good piunt
This has been happened to me. Before I want to rehab center I could stop using by myself without any help from anyone,but once I went to rehab center my mind change a lot. The stories of addiction, relapse prevention,mental disease etc kept my mind in confusion. Not knowing anything was better for me, truth to be told. Now there is a fear inside me that I can't stop using without any help from other's. So there is good reason to join rehab who works for them but for me it wasn't really a very good reason.
Someone asked me in the reply and comments how do we talk to our own cells.
Well for addiction it helps to talk out load so the cells can hear you. And theyll respond to what you say. Yout the boss of your body. You need to believe that this will work. Tell yourself how much your really grateful for being there try telling your body its already healed and have gratitude. And faith xxx
i totally agree with you here. i really think its the belief that its really addictive that affects how your going to feel. also I talk to the cells of my body. that seems to help to.
How do you do that? Talk to your cells?
@@tagaway6173 well you speak to them out load and give them love and guidence that you can give them to get better. Your cells in the body listen to everything you say x
There are no belief systems that will universally affect you either negatively or positively.
It's 100% how you interpret them yourself
Bro wish I had heard this years ago dude makes sense. I neber went to rehab did drugs form 14 til 35 10 months clean but just the idea of what he’s saying make sense. Once went to a methadone clinic and ppl were in there forever wqs the worse thing I did cause that’s when I started mixing drugs so he makes a valid point
A separate study published by the CDC and the National Institute on Drug Abuse in 2020 found 3 out of 4 people who experience addiction eventually recover.
"So that's huge, you know, 75%," Kelly said. "I think it kind of goes against our cultural perception that people never get better."
wow I never saw this ...Steven you should have told me and posted this link to my FACEBOOK ... This is fantastic .
This is not fantastic, it is foolhardy and may result in the deaths of many people
It is the mainstream disease narrative and the AA treatment system that are contributing to the needless deaths of many people.
But I can't say anything to convince you of anything if you aren't willing to look at the evidence. That's for you to deal with. If you won't look at the evidence, there is nothing to discuss.
You can start by looking at the research that has established that believing in the disease model of addiction is one of the two strongest factors that lead to relapse.
You can also read The Biology of Desire by Marc Lewis where he uses his lifelong research experience to clearly show that it is not a disease. You can read Stanton Peele's work or Lance M. Dodes' book The Sober Truth or Gene M. Heyman's book Addiction: A Disorder of Choice. You can check out Dr. Carl Hart's website.
Or not. Your choice.
I suppose it would help to understand what a disease is and it's use in relation to addiction.
Disease;a disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, especially one that produces specific signs or symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury. Seems quite obvious to me that addiction is a disease. Or perhaps you don't think diabetes is either.
As to the meanderings of others...no need, I have done my homework. Might I also suggest pointing out problems without offering solutions does little good.
Thanks Monica!
How could freely chosen human behavior possibly be considered a disease? Do you think extreme skiing is a disease? Or speeding with a car? And who decides what's a "disorder of function"? According to what?
Solutions? I can point out plenty of solutions:
1.Stop telling people they have a disease if they don't. This itself goes a long, long way and is in itself a large part of the solution. It's not simply "pointing out a problem", it's already working on the problem, considering the fact that *belief* is of the essence here (as I mentioned, belief in the disease model is a strong predictor of "relapse"). By the way, why do you think the mainstream "professionals" spend so much time "pointing out the problem" and yelling that addiction is a disease. Are you bothered by that too? If you aren't, they you aren't being very consistent.
2.Tell people they are in control.
3.If people need help with adjusing their behavior, then they can get that help from people who empower them, such as the Saint Jude Retreat or SMART Recovery, both of which have a much, much higher rate of "recovery" than the alternatives. Or so-called "brief interventions" where you simply check on a person to see how they're doing every now and then: very cheap and very effective.
THANK YOU.
I work in a rehab facility and when someone says "I can stop anytime." I always respond with "youre right. What's stopped you?" I've found management isn't too keen on approaches that differ from the disease model.
Very interesting perspective. I have noticed and felt it was counter productive the powerlessness some programs teach people dealing with addiction and the shame put on users. It keeps people in victim mode and shame mode. I've often wondered how can that help???? My son struggles with addiction and has for some years now. Knowing the philosophy of this program, maybe he would be willing to go through it because it empowers people.
SMART Recovery and Hello Sunday Morning are empowering programs. I've been a fan of Mr. Slate and Stanton Peele for quite awhile now, because they echoed the beliefs I already had. I feel the 12 Step ideology has done so much harm to our society, and it takes some serious thinking outside the box to change how you look at this entire issue. What? I might not be an addict for the rest of my life? My "disease" isn't in the parking lot doing pushups so the next time I use, it's stronger and harder to beat? If I just shift my thinking about all this, I can make these changes myself? How is this possible??? But it IS possible, and it's a lot healthier than feeling powerless and being in an organization that tells you you're going to be an addict for the rest of your life, that you're going to have triggers that will make you crave your drug, that you'll never be able to let your guard down because your disease is always working to overtake you and make you use again. But what if we won't? What if I can simply drive by a liquor store now and not be triggered because I don't see myself as an addict? What if I have changed the way I see alcohol and my relationship with it is not one of fear, but one of normalcy?
It took some time for me to shift my perceptions because the 12 Step/disease model is ubiquitous in our society and that's sometimes a difficult thing to shrug off. But if you can drop everything you've heard or been taught, as Mr. Slate suggests, you can begin to rebuild with the knowledge that YOU CAN CHANGE. If we're taught one particular way, one particular truth, our entire lives, it can be hard to wrap our heads around the possibility that it might not be the best thing, might not actually be a truth. Personally, I think there was a time that AA was a good thing...be we have evolved and grown and changed as a species and now I think it does deep harm. The mind is a powerful, powerful thing. It can accomplish amazing feats. In a very literal way, we create in our lives what we believe in our minds.
Ah, you have to fall back on the labels. See, it's impossible to discuss this with someone who is in a 12 Step program, because they can't wrap their heads around anything other than what they've been told. Oh, please..."your disease is in the parking lot, making itself stronger". This was one of the phrases I heard most often when I was in AA. I did work the steps, and they can absolutely be a pathway for change, just as anything can be.
Mr. Shoobridge, your language and message betrays with every word the harshness of this failed method! "The Big Book" of AA and the modern 12-step fad of a program to fix every conceivable "ism" is against the stated objective of AA. What YOU personally think or believe about whether a client of yours is a "true" addict or not and "really wanting recovery or not" holds NO actual power! It's dangerous mind-reading on your part and sounds so religiously judgmental!!
The modern day, multi-billion dollar rehab industry directly benefits from an almost guarranteed relapse rate! I'm recovering finally from a decade of first-hand experience in an almost fatal, ever worsening loop of 12-step meetings. I kept attempting to comply with "the program" and a lifestyle of recovery which simply wasn't helpful for the substance use disorder I was suffering from. This patriarchial, outdated, non- Scientific program for treating white, alcoholic men 100 years ago is dangerous and no longer appropriate in the modern day treatment of substance use disorder!!!
I love your talk°thank you so much for sharing
Appreciate that you say most not all.
Wonderful I really enjoyed this talk
i really liked what he said about, we are in control and we can stop if we allow it to .
I’m a member of aa but I think this guy has some really valid points and thoughts on addiction which I enjoyed, but I don’t think there’s necessarily a right or wrong way of looking at it. I think people need to overcome their addiction in whatever way works for them there’s not just one way. Addiction is by definition an illness. If you look up the term ill and read through fully, you will see there listed characteristics of addiction, a mental illness with physical presentations. Further evidence suggests it is often progressive, chronic, and can be fatal so if that doesn’t qualify it as a disease then I don’t know what does.
I am a recovery addict and I dont agree. Alot of the things he says happens in treatment, never happened when I was there. I know in my heart that treatment saved my life.
You go to passages Malibu or something? Probably better than the free rehab
@@johncardono8056 I went to a local rehab. I paid in installments. I joke around and say some people paid their way through college, but I paid my way through rehab, haha.
He's simply explaining his experience. The problem is he's mistaken that with what it's like for everyone.
He's making a bad case for causation when it's merely correlation that happened to him
The argument on both sides of this isn't even needed. It's simple, if it works for YOU stick with it. We all don't operate on the same belief systems. If A.A works good ! If you require a different approach, then use it. Simple !
Well said! Finally...
@ precisely, and it's not "working" if it involves promugating false beliefs which entrap other people in one's own preferred unscientific dogma
Correct.
Human psychology differs wildly. It doesn't even matter if this man's approach worked for him, that doesn't mean it's going to work for you
Very interesting Steven. I will order your book. I am about to start helping at an addition organisation due to my interest in the field of addiction and I am glad I have stumbled upon this perspective as it's sure made me think. Thank you.
I know I am late to the party but just watched this and am in addiction counseling...could you post some of your sources...particularly the 9/10 recovery without treatment?
This is great, so true
This is fascinating because I'm just now concidering going back into rehab cuz I've been using and am convinced I can't stop on my own but he's right. I didn't feel like a real addict until after I went through rehab and if I do go back I could lose my son. Do I really need to go or can I stop on my own and not set myself back 2 years in recovery. Am I in denial or just have no self control?
Any updates?
thank-you
This is not maybe true it's 100% true the St. Jude Retreat saved my life, had I of gone to a 12 step rehab I have no doubt it would have killed me.
Good for you but you can't be a real SUD sufferer. Just someone who went a bit overboard with the parties.
I like his approach. I was addicted to drugs and alcohol 20 years ago, i was an out of control daily user. I broke free with 12 step recovery but I have since become a moderate drinker, after 19 years of abstinence. Go figure.
@nature2rule If you've never heard of a 12 step program killing someone then you haven't looked very far. Watch the documentary "The 13th Step." Then tell me how the predators in the rooms that stalk and kill vulnerable young women aren't a product of the programs.
St Jude retreat specializes in people who have been thru multiple treatments without success and they allow third parties to verify their success rates. What constitutes a “true addict/alcoholic” is completely subjective. I quit without treatment or peer support and I can guarantee my drinking was worse than tens of thousands of AA members. So sick of this “if u did it without the steps you weren’t a TRUE addict/alcoholic”. The no true Scotsmen fallacy is one of many employed by indoctrinated steppers. 12 steppers and “treatment” society are terrified of the truth.
I love this! Thank you!!!
When WE USE IT...WE REALLY.HAVE THE...POWER!!!! BUT THERE ARE FACTORS TO ADDICTION...WE ARE CHASING A DREAM...A DIFFERENT FEELING OR A RELIEF FROM A FEELING...BUT WHO IS REALLY IN CONTROL? Since we ar all DIFFERENT...WE ACCEPT AND OR DENY PROBLEMS IN OUT LIVES..
3 of my kids have not gotten over it. Daughter age 50, son age 40 another son 35. Daughter had many treatments. None of sons did. Ruined, painful. lost lives. 😣😥
May god take care of u n your children.
This is really interesting. I can see the psychological basis for it in that rehab and addiction groups might effectively prime people with a particular mentality and create certain social norms that people internalise (e.g. that if you have a bad day, you will want to drink/whatever). The concept of being 'powerless' never sat well with me, surely you want people to believe that they are more, not less powerful than their addiction? Then, as the speaker says, if they relapse, it is characterised as a choice for which the user is accountable, not an inevitability that is beyond their control.
So where do I get real help for my daughter?
I woulda gotten over mine when I was dead. I needed treatment.
ive been at that point BUT im not sure i needed purely addiction treatment...I needed mental health treatment, i needed help to change my routine so i could imagine other ways of spending my time and i needed help with the actual physical dependency...BUT that treatment in a perfect world wouldnt have to include the disease formulae that says im an addict for life...
From this, I do feel that I caused this due to me thinking I was doing the right thing with my son. Long story
Yes, I am the parent on the playground.
Yup! My daughters got worse. One daughter is dead. The other is being drugged legally by her mental health doctor. He's her drug dealer now. It's horrible. Legal but not lawful.
I'm open to this fellow's idea, however I'm a little skeptical. I'm not a fan of the 12 step model, and I completely agree that it's counterproductive to tell people that they're powerless. On the flip side, this gent is assuming causation with correlation - that rehab is *creating* chronic relapse. I need to see data to be convinced.
Its almost impossible to do a study on such a complex topic especially doing a study on an anonymous program...
I wonder if this is the same for those that have a mental health disorder. I know some that were "addicted" , and they quit pretty easy, when they were ready to quit, and don't struggle, BUT they don't have a mental health issue.
the group he is part of wrote about this in their book. from memory, they made a large distinction between "causes" and "reasons". there was some statistic about not all addicts being mentally ill and not all mentally ill people having addictions. So they said that mental illness can't CAUSE addiction, however, somebody with a mental illness might have their emotional problems as a REASON that they overuse a drug. It's like if a sibling died, so you decided to become a doctor. your sibling's death wouldnt cause you to become a doctor, as many people who arent doctors have dead siblings, but the death might be one of your many reasons to become a doctor. hopefully that makes sense? having a reason implies consciousness and thought and feelings, but having a cause implies force. And obviously if you have a mental illness that makes you feel absolutely terrible and hopeless all the time, that might influence your choice to remain addicted or not, but plenty of people with mental illnesses get over their addictions, (even if they continue to feel very terrible about life after they have fully recovered from their addiction)
Literature to study: Bouncing back by Alan Partridge
Im sick and tired of my cokaine addiction and I hate the fact that I keep going back no matter how much help I get....
It's a book
@@antoniosantiago22 i dont understand your reply but i am 90 days sober now
@@Bellerose.Daisy.Danica congrats , I stopped drinking with the help of the easy way book im three years sober after 20 + yrs of drinking . The waking up app has done wonders for my wellbeing , maybe try some meditation now that ur clean
Yea, our son
I'm really curious if these are 97% of addicts or 97% of USERS. Addiction is not the same as a bad habit.
5 stars
He must not know any of the chronic relapsers I know.
What a man thinks a man becomes
i think you are right and wrong. Your case is like mine. When i was 19 i loved partying and blacked out and committed a crime. Bam I was an addict... Although I just drank on weekends. I was told over and over I was powerless so i began to drink. I havve gone on benders and have withdrawals. But after the withdrawal I am good. I love drugs but now I am at a point I am choosing to cut down or stop. Was a great option, not really now
But you are forced to aa of course! which i drink before. Days I miss AA I do not drink
This is true to point, yes the label itself "addict" becomes your identity for many, this is why I hated AA, but he just makes it sound so simple.The brain goes through extreme chemical changes with drug abuse and many times its permanent damage, and help is needed by doctors, not rehab. The brain has to recondition itself to live in the real world, and the only way that is done is by replacing your substance (such as alcohol) in the setting you drank, lets say a rootbeer, when you actively keep doing this it will eventually create a new habit, and when you go into that place of past drinking the craving will be gone for booze, and the rootbeer is enough. A huge study was done about this.
That's just replacing one thing for another whvih may work .. but you can also choose to abstain.
The kid fell, broke his leg and wrist, but he gets up and runs around the jungle gym like nothing happened. Wow, doesn't even need treatment. Abuse, like a fall, maybe minor or significantly severe and to group them as one is really, really dishonest. I can go to the casino and take it or leave it. Someone else? I can have a beer or two and walk away. Addiction or compulsive behavior occurs along a spectrum among a diverse striatum of people. So please end all addiction and compulsive use/behaviors with your revolutionary model to end 100,000 deaths a year, stop the ultra-processed obesity epidemic. You can sure the world. So stop criticizing and judging whatever industry you're criticizing and give us the magic answer. Only you can solve this problem!
Where did you get these statstics
A kinder surprise egg?
Do no t think thirds would work. But...
If so many people get over it so why do we have In 2020, 91,799 drug overdose deaths occurred in the United States
That sounds like a lot until you consider how many people are using massive amounts of drugs. Every single death is a tragedy but that's a small minority of heavy users.
addiction treament creates addicts. how do addicts first come into contact with treatment options??? they werent addicts before. seriously screwed up opinions from this guy.
tom steve He clearly lays it out
lol working for a treatment center and helping addicted people recover is a huge maintenance for recovery.
If you are truly chemically dependent, you would understand that at a point , the physical withdrawal is not what’s horrifying anymore. It’s the mental. The sheer thought of having to get out of bed in the morning bc your brain stops producing dopamine. You have no ambition or motivation to open your eyes and get out of bed. It seems like the most difficult thing in the entire world the thought of having to get up, brush your teeth, take a shower and - go to work? That’s the terrifying part of this.
These chemicals literally take away your motivation for living.
You may want to tell your buddies in TFM to get real. I can disagree if I like about workshop methods and payment. Shunning and blocking me is as bad as AA it is utter greed!!!!!!!!!!
The information & statistics given at the beginning of this talk are extremely inaccurate. The purpose of identifying as an addict is also being misrepresented.
The last studies he spoke of is a marshmallow study for ages 11 or 12 on marshmallows not meth lol
Nah, there are studies that show people will take money rather than a stimulant drug.
People make choices. Ive been on my own since i was 16. I had to work. Mommy and daddy Never babyed me. I learned real quick no one was going to pay my rent. Put me on there cell phone plan. Put me on there insurance plan. And feed me. That was my choice. Im 60. Ive never once asked anyone for help. I learned a trade and worked hard. 60. 70. hour work weeks. What i see today is these kids want it all handed to them.
Do not! And I mean -- NEVER -- participate in that all too common ritual of stating, "Numerous studies show this to be true..." without naming a single title of a paper and/or the research author. You've now by default made me believe you're either using embellishment or outright lying to push a narrative. Give credence and some credibility to your claim by offering at least one research study, if there's so many as you've just stated. Otherwise, just state the hypothesis or research question. I actually like your point but to not provide the work showing it is beyond off-putting.
I've been in this field for a while and can state from experience, observation and research that 1 in 10 people diagnosed w a severe addiction to a substance that have been abusing for at least 5-yrs, which is the standard measurement of time to determine if a person is considered a long-term addict stops using, with or without treatment. 10% success rates do not exist. Period. I call BS.
I don't have much knowledge about the subject. But during most of the video you just bashed the current model of treatments in rehab and only at the end you mentioned freedom model. I think telling addicts that they are addicts makes reality sink in and they would try their best to avoid relapse. A lot of things in this video didn't make sense to me like the part you compared addiction with homosexuality and feminism. We can't normalise addiction for the greater good of society. The freedom model you boasted about might have worked for you and few others.
but who beyond those few others have had the chance of the freedom model?
'They would try their best to avoid a relapse' BUT if they DO relapse they are powerless, defeated & disease ridden and IF they manage to get clean again they are facing this risk for life
but IF you go by this rationale and genuinely manage to deprogram the disease conditioning then a relapse is a choice- it's your responsibility not this visceral power if the drug or the force of an incurable disease
He's not saying to normalize addiction. He's making the true statement that the concept of addiction as presented by the 12 steps is inherently flawed and damaging. Members of AA themselves will admit that the program has a low success rate. Addicts are completely aware of reality, unless they have a separate mental health issue that disconnects them from it. When I was using I knew fully what the consequences were, and I continued to make that choice until it wasn't what I wanted anymore. I was never powerless over my decision making. 12 step recovery's deepest principle is that the individual is powerless and sick.
The 12 steps are akin to faith healing. People who go into treatment deserve counseling, medication, and community, not continued stigmatization, abuse, and judgement. I've seen the 12 step feast or famine (complete abstinence vs. heavy inescapable use) approach kill multiple people.
Sure, it works for some, and I respect that, but it should absolutely not be the de facto treatment model.
I tried doing it myself, could not do it. Treatment and AA saved my life honestly, it’s not what this guy is making it out to be, then again I understand it doesn’t work for everyone. To each his own.
from what I can tell they dont actually dispute that it CAN help BUT the biggest point for me is for addicts what alternative is there? Either we can go it totally alone/alone with subs OR only other on is na/aa module saying u have this disease for life...
what if you had the best of na/aa - support group, community, discussion, effictively talk therapy BUT without the mythologising of addiction, without the life-long disease outlook?
This guy's biggest problem is accountability
Who paid for all the treatment. I hope that you were not one of those people that decided to start doing drugs then have Other people pay for you to live and get well. Im sure you had good insurance.
Absolute rubbish, I’m afraid. I’m 18 months clean and I have seen thousands of people share the same thing: we addicts have an inner emptiness (a neurotransmission disease - in the mesocortical pathway, likely). That needs treating with substances OR a spiritual programme of abstinence. Which can also be described as a re-wiring of those pathways through neurological-plastic potential in repetition of behaviours to do with self/identity/purpose/fulfilment/joy and peace.
This is not new, and is not disputable. There are now countless studies proving that the addict’s brain is different - not just users or heavy users of substances, but those with a neurotransmission disease. See anything by Dr Robert Lefever for information on this.
Except the behavior of drug taking always predates the brain changes. There is zero pre existing neurological variant that separates addicts from non addicts. Some people simply perceive drugs are more pleasurable than others. Not to mention, the brain changes that do occur with addiction can’t be pathologized as “disease” at any point. Marc Lewis built a strong case for it being parallel to learning in his “Biology of Desire”. I’ll never understand why even former substance abusers are so infatuated with it being a disease.
The entire life and legacy of Marc Lewis is a profound refutation of your claims.
Picks an chooses his studies and some of the issues he brought up was quite ridiculous addiction is a prediction and the withdrawal worsens each time you stop and beyond a flu sighting the Vietnam coming home to no connection to the drug environment is epic an if your wanting to recover i would skip this video it will give you a false sense of everything sorry but give this info to a addict won't help
This guy is a living embodiment of mistaking correlation with causation.
I would think someone who pimps the idea that defeating addiction is 100% an inside job would understand that you attending a rehab didn't CAUSE you to get worse.
YOU caused you to get worse.
YOU learned the wrong lessons. Adopted the wrong practices. Hung out with and idealized the wrong people.
You reinterpreted yourself incorrectly. That ISN'T what identifying as an addict is supposed to do.
How can you simultaneously present the argument that your thinking is what will get you clean but your experience in rehab is what will make you an addict?
You don't have to live the label, but your experience is NOT the norm. The label doesn't continue the addiction. There IS a change neurologically in the brain regardless of the persons own perception. You are applying a unique experience that is NOT the norm. Sorry, you are harming the reality of addiction.
Sorry mate, this is a lesser helpful Ted talks about addiction, in fact could be more harmful, addiction is a disease, fact, period. Step one reads we were powerless over our addiction.. "were" being the operative word..
i don't really like this or agree with this.
Only an addict would feel the need to prove he or she wasn't one. Normal people never seek inventive ways of proving to others that they aren't addicts.
Who told you that?
Kris R I'm an addict and I'm also a substance abuse professional.
That means nothing to someone who is arguing that our entire "recovery" system and beliefs surrounding it is horribly flawed.
Kris R Well your original comment/question, "Who told you that?" comes across very snide and passive aggressive. As if I was just parroting something that someone else told me. My statement is an original statement based on personal experiences with addiction and recovery, as well as my several years of experience carrying a caseload in a residential treatment center. This argument that suggesting to someone they are an addict makes them become an addict is a dangerous idea. Many people never get the help they need and die of their addictions. Often diagnosed by a coroner as heart failure and stroke. The ADA, CDC, WHO, AMA, DSM-V and the hundreds of Dr's names mentioned in the beginning and the back of tbe book, Dr Silkworth, Dr Bob, Dr Drew, Dr Phil, Dr Oz, Dr Fricken Suess, ALLLLLL Declare that addiction is a disease/disorder that needs to be treated, many times in a medical setting, and then this guy wants to say they're all wrong. Pardon me for being skeptical of his argument.
According to Prochaska's Stages of Change Model, nothing happens until a person contemplates the idea that they may have a problem. If a person doesn't figure out that they have a problem, then there is never a reason to change. That's why shining the light on addiction is so important. This guy wants to treat addiction like a little scratch on the knee. WRONG! Subtance Use Disorder needs quick, early, and thorough intervention, with ongoing aftercare. Heroin use is out of control and people are overdosing in record numbers. We can't put a bandaid on it and move on. Wishful thinking and wonderful optimism, but not the reality and nature of how addiction needs to be approached.
Sorry kiddo. Your argument is full of holes. You are generalizing from your experience. The man wearing sandals thinks the whole world is covered with leather. Of course some people don't have addiction and get mixed in with those who do. We know much about the mechanisms involved in the disease. Also your characterization of treatment is weird.
People are not lab rats. The problem is not the drug. It is the person. The person needs to learn to live differently.
wow, anybody who is experiencing any pain from taking drugs or alcohol should really not take this "ted talk" seriously
This is utter nonsense.
Pretty sure Nancy Reagan suggested this same solution in the 80s.
I can’t even finish this...this guy is so wrong.