"Elden Ring doesn't have a narrative” “um yes it does you must be dumb”
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 20 ноя 2022
- Talking about some of this drama about Elden Ring's nomination for Best Narrative of the year, along with the responses. #gameoftheyear #eldenring #godofwar
Игры
"It's not enough to succeed. Other must fail!" This is the unfortunate tribal way far too many people think. They invest themselves so much in games, movies, books, authors, companies, etc. They make it extremely personal to themselves that they identify so much with a brand that they can't simple compare two different things and find enjoyment in both in different ways. They literally need THEIR brand to crush the opposition. It becomes team sports.
This mentality has come to infect almost every aspect of our society such that people can't just have subjective opinions, or preferences. And for something as trivial as games people are only hurting themselves. If you'd just allow yourself to enjoy GoW and ER and not be so invested in one beating the other in some silly competition your life would be more enriched by having enjoyment of two games that are fantastic in different ways.
So perfectly said, and I really appreciate you taking the time to write this. The aggressive division in every single aspect of life now, even hobbies, is just so exhausting and it's really horrible for the way we socialize. It's definitely a symptom of a much bigger problem.
I think this tribalism is especially exacerbated in this case because these two games are perfect representations of both sides of a fundamental ideological divide between those who have long resented the rise of FromSoftware games, their narrative approach and their increasing impact on the industry and those who have long resented the trends in the industry, particularly in the AAA space, where the design philosophy is increasingly risk averse and especially concerned with player retention to what they feel is a detriment to evolution of the medium. This argument has been brewing and gathering steam for close to a decade and these two titles are the perfect vehicles for this forum of frustration and represent the hill on which both sides are no longer willing to cede any further ground.
Perfectly said. I honestly didn’t enjoy GoW that much. But I have no Ill will or wish it to fail.
There is certainly a fair share elitist snark going around but there is also an abundance of people declaring definitively that ER does not have any narrative and that anyone saying other wise is drowning themselves in copium while also portraying Ragnarock's narrative as if its the second coming of Ulysses which makes sense coming from a generation of people who read significantly less then generations prior and are raised on CGI heavy films, who find anything outside the scope of that pretentious and laborious.
I'm one of those people that hate the overabundance of CGI in films today and it completely take me out of the film, but that's a criticism I have about the movie, I don't think less of anyone that still likes those films. I'm just not seeing that kind of response here; if someone criticizes a game that's either from preference or misunderstanding, but not an indicator of their intelligence. Like I said I could choose to be a total snob about people not appreciating classic films but I know people just have different interests!
@@kitetales I haven't played Elden Ring at all yet. But there is a very serious problem with most of the critics of Elden Ring and it has nothing to do with different interests or tastes. The problem is that these people don't understand the very nature of video games at all. The story of a game is not it's cutscenes, voice lines or in-game text, it's the journey a player takes through the game, because video games are interactive and only come to live when they are interacted with. A player walking through a field, killing monster and reading the description of items is the true nature of a video game's story. Not some NPCs with the voice and motion capture of an actor spouting the content of a novel.
Entertainment software that lacks interactivity stops being a game at some point and dosn't deserve being calle one. The majority of people that complain about Elden Ring know this truth and they are afraid of it, because they lack the skill and/or talent to create or play truly interactive entertainment software. This is why they are mocked currently, not for their tast, but for pretending to be something they are not.
GoW 2 is probably cinematic like GoW 1, interacting with the plot is passive (Like watching a film), it unfolds through progression.
ER does it differently, more like BoTW, less like any cinematic game like TLOU2, GoW, and others.
I’d honestly argue that ER has one of the more easy to follow overall narratives from a souls like game. Yeah, it’s got some hidden stuff, but it isn’t yet getting into DLCs about melting worlds and times into one, or endings that require meeting NPCs in specific order, while avoiding doing certain content. Comparing getting the Usurpation of Fire ending versus the Lord of Frenzy; at least in terms of steps involved, is at least easier to achieve, without a guide.
Now; style is something I can imagine being why a lot of folks are so bothered by ER being even on the list, but even then, you get a lot of story out of the game. Even if the story isn’t always explicitly told to you.
I haven't even been able to finish the game because I can't beat the final boss 😭 So sadly it might be an incomplete story for me but thankfully I was just able to read about the ending and save myself the pain of defeating Elden Beast.
@@kitetales I’m actually surprised so many people beat souls games despite how often they are sited as too difficult! I know a lot of people who don’t finish games that are way easier, just out of a lack of time or drive to complete them. Hopefully you can get some help taking down those final bosses, they are not fun lol
The problem with Elden Ring’s lore and why I don’t think it has one is two fold. First, what the amount of digging you have to do to get any lore from the game is mind numbing. Ask the player base of the game and I’ll bet you less than half know the lore from the game. Maybe some more know it through RUclips videos but if I have to go to a different source to learn the lore, is the lore in the game? Not really.
Second, the lore has already happened by the time we enter the game. We’re just picking up the pieces. Everything that is the lore has come and gone and we’re just sorta going through the game mopping everything up. The game itself doesn’t have a story it has lore behind it, so does the game have a narrative? Not really. The side quests all have stories but they’re side quests. Not much in the way of the main story line.
The lore itself is not bad but the game’s problem doesn’t lie in the difficulty it lies in how awful the game’s conveyance is.
The real problem is that people keep treating “narrative” as if it’s a more high-brow version of “story”. Narrative is a specific storytelling style and happens to be one of the few available to things like novels.
One of the best things about games is that there are so many _non-narrative_ ways to tell stories. That a game award show has a “best narrative” category instead of “best storytelling” is the real crime here.
There are definitely narratives in Elden Ring to be sure, but one might argue there isn’t “a narrative”. Instead the player is left to form a narrative of their own. This is no less deserving of an award for storytelling than more traditional forms, but if one were to award it “best narrative” one might need to ask “which one?”
Exactly
Ragnarok has a better, more emotionally charged story with well developed characters. It’s told in a direct and linear fashion and is very cut and dry.
ER lacks this, but IMO, has better world building and lore. The world feels ‘lived in’ and everywhere you go, there’s an air of mystery and wonder. From start to finish.
GOW Ragnarok only focuses on its main cast, so I felt that the world isn’t really all that fleshed out, even with codex entries. Even when reading codex entries, they’re still written from the perspective of Kratos, Mimir, and Atreus. It’s a narrower scope in comparison to ER’s wide scope. There is nothing wrong with this. This is how GOW games have always been and it continues that tradition.
For the record, I love both games. I platinumed both games. And both games are my GOTY for different reasons. You don’t have to pick a side. No one does.
There really should be 2 categories. One for Best Narrative and one for Best World Building.
Dang you platinumed Ragnarok already?! Here I'm struggling through some of these Bronze challenges 😆
Totally agree though, loved ER's world building, and might be one of the first post-apocalyptic fantasy universes I can think of.
@@kitetales Took just under 55 hours to pop the trophy on the Give Me Balance difficulty. The only labors I really worried about are the skill labors for the tokens. And that is easily completed in the training arena. Every other labor just came naturally as I played. You don’t need to do all labors or even all side quests to get platinum, though I’m not sure if you want to do a full 100% run or not.
Just want to point out that if you follow the guiding light from Grace, you get a much more straightforward narrative. It's a path that gives you the barest bones of a narrative, and it perfectly fits the scenario the player finds themselves in: a stranger in a strange land where everyone subscribes to the 'find your own way' life style (😁).
Come to think of it, that 'stranger/strange land' bit applies to all FromSoft games. Huh, I literally had not realized that until I started thinking my way through what I was typing.
@@Uldihaa It's no fun to play ER by just beelining through the story checkpoints. Most of the appeal comes from exploring the strange and unsettling lands.
Honestly, the "post apocalyptic" approach From has with all their games is getting a bit repetitive in my opinion. The world doesn't feel lived in because everything already happened. You keep hearing and reading about how lived in it was before your character arrives.
I don't agree at all that Elden Ring has better world building and lore for a simple, yet unfair (to Elden Ring) reason. It has the entire Norse mythology as it's lore/world building. And the thing that is so cool about this GoW duology is how it subverts and adapts the mythology to fit Kratos and Atreus in it.
Again, I don't think it's exactly fair because it would be like saying the Bible is more rich in lore than Final Fantasy 12. They didn't create the lore themselves, it has been around in the real world for 1500 years. But at the same time I definitely don't think it's even possible that God of War is lacking in those aspects, because it was built upon an already stablished lore.
This is all my opinion of course.
Final Fantasy XIV’s story made me literally cry with its last expansion.
Yeah I think everyone has a preference. Sadly some people as you said think because they have a different taste it makes them superior to everyone else. I never got into Kratos that much personally but I have friends who do. Elden Ring looks like it took some inspiration from LOTR and GOT in some ways but what do you think? 😉😊
Yes you're right!! It was actually written in part by the same author of GoT so good eye there!
@@kitetales Oh really? Oh wow didn't know that haha right on! Thanks for that info, you learn something new every day!😎
I feel like the argument I see more often is “Elden ring has no narrative. How can it be nominated in this category lololol” which is entirely false, objectively. But fighting about preference is ridiculous. I’ve beaten both games, I’d give Elden Ring GotY and God of War Ragnarok best narrative 🤷🏻♂️
I've seen that too, but I think the difference between "Elden Ring doesn't have a story" and "you're illiterate if you don't understand the story" is that the first is just an opinion about the game, the second is a judgement against a person, it just comes off really snobby.
@@kitetales oh absolutely. It’s super cringey.
Ok so what’s elden rings narrative?
Honestly? Plague Tale also had a great narrative. I hope it at least earns one award.
Also, Elden Ring Game of the Year, fight me.
I really enjoyed Plague Tale! I still need to beat the first one and I'm excited to start Requiem because of all the great things I've heard about it. And yeah Elden Ring will definitely get Game of the Year no question about it.
Eloquently spoken. There is no right or wrong way to provide a story, even the material itself is relative in terms of opinion. I think they are both just as deserving in their own way. Isn't it cool that we have this sort of medium, where a story can be told in such a dynamic way? To provide not only a visual and cinematic medium but also a written form that provides more context. You don't get to see and hear a story you also get to discover it. It really makes me happy.
Thank you so much, and thank you for your comment! And I agree with you, I am more in awe of the different ways we get to experience stories today.
Man this is a tale as old as time. I remember when this was Dark Souls vs Skyrim and the exact same type of arguments popped up. "Dark Souls is just a bad game that's too hard with no story" then the fire back was always along the lines of "no ur 2 stoopid to understand da lore and your poppy dragon fights are dumb you doodoo head"
All it is is players angry they're not good at the game or don't understand what's going on lashing out to protect their ego instead of trying to adapt, and immature DS fans firing back instead of helping or just ignoring them. Everyone involved is a nerd and it's more fun to just get some popcorn and watch goofy chaos unfold until everyone stops caring in a year when the argument runs out of people who want to fuel it.
There is certainly value in making a mysterious story than makes people theorize and research, especially for content creators, as well as optional side stories that not everyone finds. It's just hard to compare that value versus something more "direct" and "emotional" like GOWR or A Plague Tale Requiem or whatever. For me I tend to like the former since it leads to a lot more discussion, variety of opinions/experiences and flexing our imaginations. Conversations about more obvious/linear stories are basically like "Remember when X happened? Wasn't that (insert emotion here)?" and stop there. Those stories are what they are, with little to no variation, and don't always take advantage of an interactive medium.
Yes the community material created from ER is phenomenal; really haven’t ever seen that kind of huge reaction from so many people from a game. It felt like a paradigm shift in gaming!
You can do both, Elden Ring chose just a path that you don't have almost any exposition and dialogue.
Me playing Elden Ring: "I have no idea what's going on here, but it's stabbin time!"
Myst is my all time favorite game story. I still listen to the soundtracks and often have their wallpapers on my laptop.
Also loved Syberia, another classic!
Oh my gosh I LOVED Myst, I wanted to live in that world!!
will you ever edit that Elden Ring review? i would love to hear your thoughts with your format and narration.
I think what it really is, is two fandom talking shit to one another before the contest.
No different from two different sport fans trash talking each other before the game.
I think the reason why it became a controversy is because games didn't use to have fandoms, that separated themselves into, "teams", for a lack of a better word, but now with games and the audience for games getting bigger and bigger, it did just that, and once "teams" are formed, the shit talking follows, and now it's all laid out on the internet for everyone else to see, and I guess some people don't like the shit talking that's a natural part of fandoms.
You're probably right, there is a very tribal "they vs. them" air right now that is definitely at the peak of anything I ever remember growing up. Everyone is polarizing themselves, either love something hate the other, there is no between. Disappointing mindset.
Sega does what Nintendon't. As someone who had very passionate arguments in middle school about playstation vs xbox, I don't find this new or weird.
Elden ring has a lot of LORE, undeniably, but most characters have very little speech. There is not a single dialogue even, they are all monologues. So yeah, "narrative" for elden ring is a bit off.
Hast thou ensured thou art but speaking thyself in a truest way? 🧙
Oh my! So many choices! The main thing I look for in games is the story, and how it’s told is far less important than how deep it is. Basically all of final fantasy, but 4, 6, and 7 stand out as my favorites, then the legend of legaia and legend of dragoon! More recent games of course being god of war, last of us, and infamous (1&2). Of this years games I think stray wins for me, though mostly because I haven’t played many new games this year, haha. Though I’ve been playing Far lone sails which has no dialogue and everything is told through the environment. Beautiful game!
Love your game picks there!! I hear that FF6 is great I definitely need to try that. I bet there is probably a remaster and everything now available 😆 Stray had such a cool world, absolutely loved the style of it.
I think it's fine when people say they don't like Elden Ring's story (or its delivery), but I do honestly get bothered when they say it has NO story or NO narrative, because that just isn't true. Your description with the paper shredder is pretty dead on, and it isn't for everybody...but people shouldn't act like it isn't *eligible* to be nominated for something just because they don't care for it personally.
This is the kind of response people should emulate! 🥲 Thank you for being objective. We could definitely benefit from more people like you!
Oh it has a story... so much so that the game really insists on shoving it down your throat. The lore of Elden Ring is beautiful, and SUPER ambitious... but it's delivery is just... terrible. Just intentionally vague... nonsense...
Doesn't make the game bad, it still has all the fundamental parts of what I consider a masterpiece video game, but anyone who tells you that it deserves best narrative, is just being incredibly biased.
If all the supplemental (not even foundational) material that's supposed to provide clarity for your story is 90% speculative... then you've written a garbled mess.
There's "not holding a player's hand" and then there's "putting a blindfold on your character, spinning them around forty times, spitting on them, kicking them in the ass, out the door, into a room the size of a football arena, whose floor is covered in broken glass and land mines".
Just because you have a really amazing world, filled with unique characters, doesn't give you a pass for presenting it all in a really dumb way...
The world was vastly confusing, filled to the brim with things trying to kill you all the time, with some bland lifeless NPC's sprinkled throughout... I couldn't connect with ANYONE or ANYTHING in it at all... and I still loved it.
I'm just not trying to delude myself that "BIG STORY = GREAT STORY", ya know?
The Silmarillion is a collection of lore and stories by Tolkien, it however is not a story. Elden Ring is a collection of lore with stories of the build in item descriptions...This is tantamount to reading a damn wiki, do you consider reading wiki to be reading a novel? Lore is what is used to build a cohesive story, Elden Ring is just lore.
@@areallyboredguy5825 yes, in your example, the wiki would be giving the reader information about a storyline
@@jonahxddd2932 reading a Fan Wiki is however not a story. It is a collection of lore stories but that’s different from „a story“
I think that Soulsborne narrative are always very isolated an lonely. Even though there are NPCS and player characters, the games on their own often almost feel like I am Legend or some other isolated hero myth.
Perfectly said. I think that’s why I loved the NPC summons, it definitely made it feel less lonely.
Hedataka Miyazaki made Elden Ring specifically for his fans. So of course the game does not appeal to the general gamer population. For Miyazaki that is ok. He does care about game awards nor does he care for acceptance. He makes all of his games out of passion and inspiration from the books he read growing up. Whether or not Elden Ring wins any awards Miyazaki will keep making games for players like me and I am grateful for that.
I am looking forward to the new Armored Core. It was Hedataka Miyazaki’s first IP he worked on and to see his life’s work come full circle in such a way makes me reflective of my own life.
Who is the best of the year? Ask yourself
You're the one play the game right not other people playin, I have both I can't compare myself
Style and gameplay are not on the same line of comparison
They both put a lot of heart into making games so I respect them how about that.
Hear hear! This is the kind of attitude we need more of! :)
I definitely agree that there's nothing wrong with preferring straight forward narratives, however specifically the people who state that elden ring doesn't have a story are mostly speaking from a point of ignorance, since it undeniably has a very involved story, it just wasn't delivered the way they wanted, and I don't personally think it's wrong to point out that they're mistaken, so long as you aren't being an insufferable elitist about it.
One of my favourite games for narrative is Disco Elysium. The story in DE is great, and the way it's presented is the exact opposite of ER but has a very similar affect of uncovering the lore of the world.
Rather than having to find bits around the world to piece together, DE will give you everything, almost too much and not all of it is truthful. Based on your choices and actions the game gives you different information and some NPCs will lie to you based on your character's alignment. You likewise to ER become a detective but for the truth whilst in a world of highly opinionated and politically/belief based characters! What is the NPCs motive to talk to an authority figure, why would they want to help your investigation! Maybe they get enjoyment for sending you on a wild goose chase.
Of course this is super overwhelming in a first play through, and subsequent playthroughs give you even more information. But slowly you uncover the true state of Revachol and if you want to try to change the place for better or not. Yes, this game is literally like reading a book due to the million+ words of dialogue, but thankfully now there is spoken narration so it's a lot more welcoming!
GOW Ragnarok has a more impactful story for me, the character development of Kratos is just so heart-warming. For world building though, Elden Ring easily takes it for me, it has one of the best environmental storytelling in any fantasy game ever. The Tarnished Archeologist proves that very well.
The world building for ER was incredible. Loved the post-apocalyptic fantasy setting.
i think a big part of this backlash is due to how the GJP crowd attacked Elden Ring when it came out. Sterling is a good example of someone who went from being opposed to "wider audience" arguments, to saying "if it doesn't have a wider audience you're not fulfilling bland utilitarianism."
so everyone just has their hackles up at the moment and honestly i'm just sick of the "fromsoft released a game let's blow raspberries at them" cycle
personally i like the fromsoft paper shredder method right until the moment where i had to figure out why Sekiro looked like a Japanese bloke.
still working on that mystery
My favorite game to this day, both in storytelling and delivery is Morrowind. Elden Ring was just not a good enough experience for me after other From Soft games. I loved Sekiro and Blodborn, DS was a special journey for me also; but ER just didn't deliver as mush as I have hoped for. It didn't feel right... must be because I'm retarded and mentally challenged person according to the From Soft community, so that's ok.
Hey man, it's not our fault our low IQ brains can't handle the epic narrative!
Some of my favorites include dragons dogma dark arisen, fist of the north star Ken's rage 2, disgaea, dark souls, and voice of cards. They all are special and dear to me to the striking visuals and soundtrack to the voice acting and storytelling. I'd recommend them to anyone
Thank you for the recommendations! I thought Dynasty Warriors was a ton of fun so Fist of the North Star sounds like it'd be up my alley!
@@kitetales Have fun playing it! I love dynasty warriors as well. One of the things I love most about this game is the soundtrack by Haruki Yamada
As a famous commercial once said “Why not both?”
That’s all I’m saying! 🌮👐🌯
Beautifully said.
I agree with this take! Overall, which game did you like more?
I haven’t finished Ragnarok yet, but I think I’m leaning more toward that!
The story to Kingdom Hearts captured my attention, to this day I don't think I know exactly what the F was going on.
Speaking of convoluted, I've heard that MGS games has convoluted stories, and of course there's Death Stranding where Kojima literally cemented the fact that he enjoyed convoluted stories "that predict the future".
I think that OoT has a good story, it's pretty solid (And it's sequel, MM). Same style as ER in terms of having the story revealed through gameplay as opposed to cutscenes.
Silent Hill 2 has a very good story and was remarkable for its time.
People would probably mention TLOU and Uncharted franchises but I haven't played those. I think GoW's story was also very solid.
I don't know much about GoW 2 though.
FF 7 is one that I see being mentioned A LOT, and although I'm familiar with the synopsis, I'm pretty certain it's waaaaay better if I actually play it.
Ehehehe This to me is just like the argument of subbed vs dubbed anime. People who can't be bothered and just want to turn off, and people who want to give a bit more effort in what they're doing. Not that one side is wrong over the other, just a different storytelling flavor. I bet that ER fans are defending it with fervor is because there are game journos and game devs criticizing it heavily, from UI, gameplay, and narrative. It's not aligned with the norm.
Personally, the last game I played with a story is Nioh 2... if I can remember correctly. Kind of the same as ER narrative-wise, few cutscenes and bits from item description
It's sad that we live in a world where the only way for something to be good is for everything else to be bad.
good video is it ok if I ask you a question?
It depends on the question 🤨
@@kitetales ok out of all of the endings of elden ring witch one do you think is the most likely canon ending personality i think its ranni ending.
I actually never beat it because I couldn’t get past Elden Beast 😔
Showed this vid to my brother who thinks that elden ring has no story
I also love both games, don't understand why people trend to pick one over the other. Elden Ring is an amazing game that tells the story through the combat, world building, boss fights, conversations, items and it is up to you if you want to catch it or not, while GOW tells the main story in a more cinematic way, it still hides lots of the backstory, lore, mythos in the ambientation, books, poems and conversations.
Why be sour picking one when you can be happy and play both? And enjoy them of course.
Great videos BTW, I enjoyed a lot the Elden Ring stories and theories.
Thanks so much I really appreciate that, those were really fun to work on! 😊 And agree 100%!
I wish there was a category that was for Best World Setting or Best Lore. It just feels like this was always going to be controversial with people who didn't play or personally agree about Elden Ring being nominated for Best Narrative even if Ragnarok hadn't come out this year and it was up against something else
Feels like by that comment you haven’t played gow, it’s controversial cuz they both deserve it in different ways. It’s not that ppl are mad about elden ring or didn’t understand it, it’s that both devs busted theirs asses to give us extremely high Quality games.
I love elden ring it got my goty vote, but the character development, emotions, and acting in god of war tells a better story. Putting it together is nice but at lot of that credit is up to interpretation, idk a lot of elden rings lore still feels very head canon where as gow is just so grounded and extremely well delivered.
@@James-9999 I actually have played Ragnarok and only watched other people play Elden Ring, and I think that Ragnarok should win Best Narrative. I wish they had the categories I threw out cause I just personally believe Elden Ring would win in both those categories and it deserves to. Ragnarok was a more personal story to me so I'm biased but if ER does win I wouldn't begrudge it
There should absolutely be a Best World Setting/Building category!! SO many games would be up for that. And yes that is something that isn't appreciated enough, the world environment because so much detail goes into creating spaces that feel very lived in, aged; that'd be such a great addition to the categories.
@@JesstheFlamingMess yeah 100% agreed I wouldn’t mind seeing a world building category that would fit much better with how the lore is portrayed in game.
The “hate” seems to come from people who argue that elden ring has NO narrative and does not deserve the nomination.
It doesn’t have a typical video game narrative, and that’s a great thing. People don’t seem to realize narrative can be more than cutscenes.
I can see people criticizing a game because that just happens all the time, but these reactions stands out to me because the intelligence of the person is coming into question and that's just nuts...
The story of Elden Ring is a masterpiece. Its narrative is shallow.
Some of my random favorite narrative games are Disco elysium and Hollow Knight. If you haven't played hollow knight, you should consider giving it a shot. I almost never played side scrollers or infamously difficult games but i instantly became enchanted(excuse my mellow drama) with the world. I think the learning curve is pretty fair and it's story is great. It's can be alot like fromsoft with its storytelling but with cuter presentation. Still, its story is actually pretty serious.
I have played almost all the FF games, Witcher, right now I'm playing AC Valhalla and I'm ready notes that also come up. For me my love of RPGs comes from the story.
I’m pretty sure that most of Elden Ring’s story isn’t even in the game anyway. You have to read developer tweets and seek outside sources to fully piece it all together. I think GoW Ragnarok has too much reading as well.
GoW has a LOT of dialogue, much more than people realize. It's pretty much nonstop and it's all relevant to what's happening and what has happening leading up to things. I love that though, it feels comfy like I have a friend playing it with me.
Ah Elden Ring even though I am not very good at it I love the characters it has Rya Fia and of course best boi Boc I really wanted to hug him.
Awwww Boc was such a sweet boy
If it was nominated for best narrative, then so should Skyrim in 2011.
My girlfriend used to pause God of War every time there were norse runes on screen and read them. Turns out all of them have appropriate meaning
Well I would agree with their statement I'd say there's definitely two extremes to this outright stating that it has no story is one extreme while the other is like you said one side feeling superior for having a preferred story telling method that's less linear just because you don't like how the story is being told doesn't mean that there is no narrative at all
It tends to be the way that people dismiss things they don't like: well it just isn't good and you're wrong. It makes having conversations all the more challenging.
@@kitetales yeah unfortunately it does make conversations a lot more difficult lol but not impossible your video being an example of a great way to propagate healthy discussion I appreciate ur effort in making this video! As well as replying to so many people!!
I think it's definitely not dumb to think ER doesn't have a plot the first time playing it and not knowing how to "interact with the plot". That's the price of the freedom the game gives us, we can literally choose to "do the plot" or not. We can choose to read the items' descriptions or ignore them altogether, we can choose to interact with NPCs and do their quests to get further details about the plot, or not...
Our tarnished character can do whatever on earth they want, it's like BoTW, and of course it rewards the player for "procrastinating" because that's how we get buffs.
The strategy guide book is chef's kiss because if we do everything in it, then we will have done everything in the game that the developers wanted.
Alternatively, we can literally do "only plot related content". Don't care for Alexander? NP.. ignore him altogether.
Wanna do a hybrid where you do part of the plot but then still progress to the plot's official end? NP, just get two great runes and boom you'll be in Leyndell.
I find that just like how we're offered the opportunity of adjusting the difficulty as we please by choosing where to go and what to do, we're also offered the opportunity to engage in the plot.
Both are equally awesome, & both fun to play and each deserving of GOTY, as for the narrative award, it will probably go to GoW:Ragnarok
Shadow of the Colossus
Oh my gosh that has been on my list FOREVER. I am told it'll make me cry so I can't wait to play it, I love games that pull on your heart strings.
Go finish your review video. this one was great!
Awww thank you for that encouragement! 🥰
Probably the first red dead redemption, that ending made me cry
YES. Oh my gosh, I was sobbing during the credits. And even more so when you see that Jack follows in his father's footsteps. John lived his whole life wanting a more honest, easier life for his son and yet Jack can't escape that world. Such a freaking amazing game.
I'll admit that, petty as it is, I'm not ruling out Sony fans just being as toxic as seemingly ever in regards to this non-troversy. But in the end, I think TGA in general is just overrated. The year when TLoU2 somehow won nearly every category, even freaking "Music" despite how TLoU2 never seems to ever show up in any sort of discussion related to VGM and vice-versa, convinced me that I was a fool to put the little faith I had in the first place.
Yeah these award shows don't always depict the most objective picks; I was actually pretty confused why Stray was in SO many categories. Stray was a little fun, really pretty, but eh, kind of forgettable. But as Game of the Year?? Odd choice...
Saying "Elden Ring doesn't have a narrative" is objectively just wrong, it's just got a different way of telling it. Personally I do prefer the more simplistic method of storytelling most of the time, it can be somewhat exhausing somtimes trying to figure out what's concrete in these games, and the usual amount of cut content certainly never helps. Sometimes, I like to just know what's going on, which is probably why Sekiro is my favourite souls game story-wise. It has lots of things for you to read and figure out, whilst also delivering a clear story with a defined protaganist, allowing for more defined relationships between characters.
Completely agree! It’s got a very true crime element to the storytelling which is why I think it’s so popular.
It doesn't have a narrative in the same sense as Skyrim: it's up to you if you want to save the world or not. You can be the leader of the Thieves Guild and ignore the various dragons attacking the people. The narrative is up to you.
GOW has an actual narrative, and it is unfair to compare GOW to Elden Ring since one has a strong narrative while the other has lore/worldbuilding, which is entirely different. It's kind of like comparing The Hobbit to the Silmarillion.
As far as storied in games go, Nier Automata is definitely my favourite. It feels like a story which could only be told in the medium of a video game (I'm curious as to how the upcoming anime adaptation shall adapt the story).
I really need to play that one! My husband loves that game and speaks really highly of it. Didn't realize there was an adaptation for it! I wonder (hope) if it'll be faithful enough to the source material, if I could watch that in lieu of playing the game.
I mean igamine if they did that with a book.
It doesn't. There is no build up. No stakes. No reason to care.
You're just proving that you're the strongest. As if that even mattered.
This is Destiny 1 vanilla level.
This is, unfortunately, par for the course in gaming and I wholly agree that is off-putting. "people must think the same way as I, or else they are wrong, malicious or dumb". This has been true for the last two decades -- maybe longer, but it's incredibly toxic.
I think we all know it probably wont win the best narrative, rather game of the year. But fromsoft games are rich in narrative but on a larger scale, not like most other games that tell a more personal story which is more easily understandable
It would make such an incredible novel series too!
@@kitetales ohh yes! And they did say they planned on releasing expanded media whether that be in novel or show format! There they could flesh out the story on a more personal episodic level and there it would really shine to the masses
1:10 I dunno, I think you should say that, old movies are great!
YES!! Found the one classic film fan ❤️
@@kitetales watch one of my videos. You might hear suspiciously familiar voice. ;)
@@ordinal2361 DUDE! When did you get a new account?!
@@kitetales Im always back and forward with them because I can’t decide what kind of videos I wanna make. 😫
But it’s gooood to be back.
If I go to an Opera or read a book I don't get to the end where it says watch RUclips videos for the rest.
That's called poor story telling
I just bought Elden Ring, a digital version unfortunately, so I can't even sell it. I didn't realise that the game has no story and the main character doesn't even speak. It just plops you in the middle of the game and you have no motivation to play it.
I do love games that are cinematic with a good story. Specifically because I like reading. I love mystery, fantasy, and Sci Fi novels. I do t like reading the dictionary or an encyclopedia though 😂
Old ass games like legend of Zelda has stories too
A game where the story is beautifully written out for you, you play as a character that has history and is fulfilling the final stretch of their journey. VS. A story that you write out for yourself, a character you create yourself. Yes, there is guidance, but the option to choose between multiple endings, adventures that you can choose to take part of or ignore. Both are masterful stories, and anyone that tries to put one over the other genuinely don’t have an open mind. Saddens me people can be so exclusive to good games….
Oh I think there is a lot of non-open mindedness going around these days in all aspects of life, sadly 😔 People are just so mean to each other over small things
It does have a good story, it's just not better than Ragnarok in my opinion.
What gives Souls games story a lot of hype and mystery is the fact that not only it's cryptic, and hard to access but it's also missing pieces on purpose. I like this actually, but overall the Dark Souls trilogy and Elden Ring story is pretty much some variation of Lord of the Rings/Silmarillion if you took away dialog, scenes and descriptions from it.
The highlights when it comes to Souls to me, are the Artorias of the Abyss DLC story and how it ties with DS1, and Bloodborne. Especially Bloodborne, that story would beat Ragnarok in my book, if it came out this year.
Also, most Souls elitists didn't went after the lore themselves, they watched a lore video by a dude that spent hundreds of hours playing, reading, putting together and making a video about it. Actually I would say 98% of people don't do the work themselves, they just talk as if they did.
PS: Imagine telling someone that played a game like Planescape Torment they don't like to read because they aren't a fan of Fromsoftware's storytelling lmao.
Elder Ring has lore sure in the majority of textbook style..., Narrative story - barely. There's a reason no D&D based game will be nominated for narration despite being lore and story deep. Book style story telling is never comparable to full narration story telling in games.
And without all of the extra work, the story is pretty inaccessible with the presentation style.
@@kitetales Ain't that the truth -_- I both suck at the game and just don't have the time to play hide and seek with it... Bad combo for me getting anything done. lol
It's the lore. Lore is different from a story but they can be connected. The lore is what happened 500 yers ago and is what gives the bosses in elden ring their own motivation. The story is the reason you do what you do in the game, it's what gives your *character* importance and the way he interacts with the people and the world around him. And in elden ring you just explore, kill enemies, and have fun. Thats it.
tbh if you think souls games don’t have a narrative, that says more about you than the game.
This is how I feel about people who say black and white films are boring 😔
The Silmarillion is a collection of lore and stories by Tolkien, it however is not a story. Elden Ring is a collection of lore with stories of the build in item descriptions...This is tantamount to reading a damn wiki, do you consider reading wiki to be reading a novel? Lore is what is used to build a cohesive story, Elden Ring is just lore.
Hey man I’m with you! Just don’t go saying that in an alley of Souls fans or you’ll get stabbed
Awesome video. I’d be lying if I say I’m not guilty of this behavior. But you’re 100% spot on. I only put Elden Ring over GOW for the freedom and the replay value. And getting something new every play through.
God of war is just a one and done
I think Elden Ring deserved game of the year and god of war deserved best narrative. Why? Elden Ring is more fun. God of War has an entire super long script with characters acting off each other. People don't play Elden Ring to experience the story. It's about the gameplay. People play God of War to experience the story. I also think that God of War put more effort into designing the story. Even when you count all the item descriptions in ER, God of War still has a massively bigger script. Elden Ring has a more complex world, but I think it's fair to say that the game that put the bigger emphasis on story should get the award. Nobody is arguing that minecraft should win best story for the stories the individual players create for themselves.
@@crunkers_ for me best narrative is more than having a script. For example GOW just flat out tells you what’s going on.
I like Elden Rings narrative more because it sparks questions. It shows you the story and the details are there to piece together. Idk I just find it much more engaging. Not saying GOW sucks… it’s just predictable and takes the fun away for me.
@@RampidWarthogStudios Telling you what is going on is what a narrative is. Most stories tell you what's going on because that's how character development happens. It happens in Elden Ring too. So and so dies because they wanted to get into the academy, be reborn ect. Its not hard to understand the actual character arcs. They are just pretty basic. Elden Ring has some enviromental storytelling, and some smaller narrarives. But it doesnt even really have a main narrative. Just, your character goes and kills stuff. There is a big difference between narratives and stories. Narratives tend to have a three part plot structure with a build, conflict and resolution. Elden Ring just tries to relay themes through its world building and nothing else. They would rather spend all their money on a big open world than tons of writers and voice actors. Great game. 10/10 for me. Worst aspect was the story.
BTW your opinion is valid. I used to love Dark Souls storytelling. It just got old for me as I played other games that had more fleshed out relationships between characters and didn't leave me to make up half the story for myself.
@@crunkers_ fair enough. I enjoy when things are left to the imagination. Makes me feel part of the world rather than a spectator. Idk. Both are good 😊
nice try to get me to sway and drop my weapons and accept and respect the personal tastes of others, but immortally is clearly best.
I’ll get you next time, Gadget 🤖👊
@@kitetales just kidding, but I saw the amazing video by Jacob Geller about Immortality (unrelated to the game awards, didn't even know it was nominated) right before I watched yours and for a moment the other nominated games in comparison to Immortality felt a bit written by people who write stories for people with an "illiterate" mind (who would never read books).
But to be honest it is amazing that Elden Ring is even nominated and it is very similar to kind of patchwork story telling Immortality does.
I don't want to see games nominated that could have told their story perfectly in a movie format, but those who actually use the full potential of the medium.
Let me end my comment with a quote by Werner Herzog: "Academia is the death of cinema. It is the very opposite of passion. Film is not the art of scholars, but of illiterates."
I am really interested in Immortality! And I'm one of those people that love cinema and also love reading. I have films, games, and books that are incredibly near to my heart. I think it's healthy to be able to enjoy stories in a variety of different mediums, I wish more people could see that.
@@kitetales :)
After having beat Elden Ring with 200 hours, as well as every souls game except Sekiro and doing every quest and watching multiple lore videos, I will say that I don't like the storytelling. Fromsoft's method of storytelling has remained pretty unchanged since previous games. You interact with NPC and they talk at you and it's a totally one sided relationship. There's always no factions (Edit there are factions. Volcano manor and covenants) and the entire world is dead or dying. The only way to change the world is to go kill the boss and then even after that the world is still broken and empty. Fallout is a post apocalyptic world like elden soulsborne, but your choices and your decisions matter in that game going back to fallout 1. You can still feel like the world is struggling, it's just that there's settlers and people with complex tasks for you to complete that make you feel involved in the world. In Elden Ring you don't have a choice to side with Marika or talk it out with Melania. You don't have a choice not to burn the Erdtree. The only time I really felt like I made a choice was when I was killing an NPC instead of doing their quest or turning them into a summon by feeding them a potion.
Another problem is that the questing structure practically requires you to use a guide or you can easily miss out on content.
For me dialogue options and trees are an important part of feeling like I am my character. Elden Ring is an RPG in the mechanical side, but there is very little role playing other than stats and gear. The lore is interesting for sure and has a lot of cool ideas and callouts to mythology. But I don't know that I would really call that a story or a narrative so much as just worldbuilding. What does it matter that Morgott is connected to the omen? It's told to us through item descriptions but there's little to no impact on our character. It's just a cool fact about a guy we killed. We weren't able to force him to embrace the omen if we sided with dung eater or help him suppress the omen. Every boss is just a boss at the end of the day, except maybe Gwendolyn in Dark Souls 1. Their stories already happened long before the player arrives to kill them.
About the regular, non boss NPCs, many of their stories end in unsatisfying ways. Often they die when it was extremely obvious they would die, or it's not really explained. Most of the story endings made me feel like the writers didn't know how to wrap up their story so they just had them die or disappear from the game. I don't mind bad endings at all, but they need to feel deserved instead of just a character death that nobody cares about because it's an NPC nobody cares about with like 12 lines of dialoge.
Sorry for that massive rant I just needed to get out some of my frustrations with fromsoft after decades of seeing the same tropes and predictable NPCs.
This is very well said and really mirrors a lot of my own feelings about its story. It's definitely already set in stone and there were some things that broke immersion for me often (for example, assisting enemy soldiers against shared enemies would be an easy faction choice to make, but in ER it never made a difference in any way).
I know that FromSoft is known for the difficult fights more than anything, but it'd have been cool to have an open world game that felt more malleable.
This is kind of a one-sided oversimplification. There's a difference between staying you hated the story in Elden Ring and saying it has no narrative whatsoever. In the former case these kind of responses are ridiculous, art is subjective after all. But in the latter cases, of which there are many, some of these responses are proportional.
They're just matching the energy, ya know..... trolling.
I don't know man I read these comments in context and they were definitely serious! I think people ought to be able to say "I don't like X" without the "then you must be a moron" response
@@kitetales Absolutely, I've seen a lot of this from the souls community, that's why I made the distinction. If you're referring to a specific thread I can't speak to that, it just seemed like you were speaking in generalities.
Yeah Fromsoft fandom confuses the hell outta me. Some real chill fellas but also a lot of real stinkers with sticks up their asses. What's got me more worried is that you'd think this whole thing was just a bunch of trolling and hyperbole (and don't get me wrong ER was head and shoulders above GoW and Im glad it secured the award) but more and more you see people taking what used to be memes and taking it to heart unironically. For some so called big brain individuals they really seem to miss the point pretty often if I say so myself.
From my experience pretty much any kind of game can work if you have a talented team behind it. There are crappy Souls likes as much as you have incredible and gripping cutscene heavy games like Uncharted which is literally meant to emulate the feel of a classic action movie iirc. Even with actual movie games you have Walking Dead which is an amazing story.
But imo they're all wrong. Book supremacy forever baybeeeee. The best sci fi game or movie can't hold a candle to an Asimov novel
.....is anyone going to tell these people that this is the easiest souls game to understand?
There is only one way to respond to this video……… where is the Elden Ring review!! 😊
Ugh you watch classic films? So crass. I only watch silent projections of animals from the 1880s. Bet you haven't even heard of Capybara Walking
I am ashamed to have been bested like this in public, I demand a duel for the sake of my honor
It is fine to enjoy a game with a straightforward story which can be seen and enjoy by just watching the cutscenes on RUclips, but people who claim things like "soulsborne games have no story/bad stories" are the WROST type of gamers: they're arrogants, they don't understand the difference between plot and narrative, they don't understand how games convey their stories and, to be honest, are causing more harm to the medium than any "git gud" a-hole.
Oh I play a lot of online games so I've run into some REALLY toxic gamers, and they're always the ones that go after people like what I'm seeing with these kind of comments in the video. I really couldn't care less if I see someone call the games I like boring, because the game doesn't need my defending of it and especially to someone that probably has very different tastes than I do.
"It doesn't have 50 hours of cutscenes and unskipable scripted Yak sections therefore it doesn't have a narrative"
Man I just miss when games didn't have to be movies and could just be games that tell a story in a nuanced and subtle manner.
Don't get me wrong, there is definetly a place for detailed extensive story telling in videogames. I'd be a hypocrite to say otherwise since I LOVE Falocm JRPGs and those are basically novels with gameplay attatched.
But not every game needs to play like a movie or a novel to tell a great story and ER is living proof of this.
Okay but how do you feel about RDR 2? 👀
I dont think it excuses it, but we need to be aware of the fact that most of these attitudes from souls fans are a counter reaction to people that act that way against the series or ER. Regardless of if you like or dislike the games, how bout you just dont be a twat? Lol ive seen so many people be outright mad about souls games existences and that does provoke a defensive counter reaction from me aswell, we just have to fight that urge to attack back and instead keep the rational conversation of the games value going in a respectful way. This comes into play here aswell. When you feel your franchise is already given a hard time, or is heavily misunderstood and not given a fair chance by a lot of people, you tend to be on the defensive as default.
See I don't feel offended by people saying ER doesn't have a story; that game sold over 17 million copies, it doesn't need me to defend it. But I am offended at someone saying I'm lazy and basic because I prefer linear traditional storytelling, that's just so weird and uncalled for.
In my opinion, Ellen ring didn't really have a story, it just had a lot of lore. Its one of the reasons I didn't enjoy Elden ring as much as other people
😂😂😂😂😂
If I don't have cutscenes filled with exposition then clearly the game doesn't have a real narrative. How else is the average single digit IQ gamer supposed to keep up?
i played last of us 2 and now my brain feels like pizza why 🥴
@@kitetales infected with the brain plant
I would still say there's no narrative, because a narrative has a main character defined by a want and a need. You're not playing a character, really, you're mostly just playing a character class; and that's only for the first few hours of the game until you start tweaking your build based on your proficiencies, preferred play style, and loot.
The story isn't a story, it's a situation. The difference? Imagine if in 'Back to the Future' Marty didn't play on stage and punched Biff for George instead. It would defeat the entire point of George and Marty's character archs: to stand up for what they care about. 'Elden Ring' doesn't even do that! Because it doesn't establish a character with an arch first to completely devalue. Your character doesn't have a past, no preexisting flaws or characteristics to speak of, so, *how* can they have a story? That's what a narrative is.
The NPC's have stories, *you* don't really have one, because you don't have a character you can define. Great game, but, no, there's not a story in it. There's lore, there's a situation you play a part in, but there's not a narrative with an inciting incident defining a character's want and need, no rising action or falling action, no point of no return, no darkest hour, no final test to prove the lesson well learned. None of that. You bonk until you level and level until you bonk. The End.
Too much content to remember!! Already in Dark souls it was difficult to keep track of everything and everyone, in Elden Ring with its vastness it is practically impossible. Too many different stories, protagonists with names too way to similar, locations, people and events called in many different ways. I don't understand why building such an intricate story if you don't provide the player with at least the foundations to follow it in the best possible way. Very little would have been enough. For example, why not allow you to view the description of an object the first time you collect it, instead of forcing the player to go on a treasure hunt in the inventory? And if a quest log would have distorted the game why not insert a diary where the player can create a diagram where he can sort the various objects by topic, so that everyone has the opportunity to put the story pieces together... No instead all is left only in the hand of the player Memoryif after 50 hours of gameplay you feel compelled to watch a Lore video to try and make sense of the mountain of information being thrown at you, that's not a good thing.
I would respect “I don’t like how the story is told”. I can’t take anyone who says ER has no story seriously.
Hey I hear you! This is like when people tell me they hate my music
The story of Elden Ring is much more original than God of War.
God of War is just a combination of what you see in Hollywood movies and a little bit of Last of Us.
But I think the game awards will rigged it for God of War.
I'm sorry but saying that Elden ring story is good is just being dishonest. There is no end, no explanation of the beginning or what happened. It melds history of the world and the current time line. What even is Lands Between? Between what? The metaphor you gave about the paper shredder misses the crucial point that the "epic fantasy" story was never written in the first place. It was shredded after being written halfway.
From Software has never told good stories. It is merely through the popularity of their games is the delusion of from soft being good story tellers become manifest. Nothing even happens in the end of Dark Souls. There is no explanation of what each ending does. Even in the dark ending, fire is going to return one day. Even in the dlc ending, we don't know what the world painting is supposed to be. This isn't good ending to a story, this is like ending the story at the inciting incident. Hmm sounds exactly like the Song of Ice and Fire...😊
The real question here is why anyone still cares about the game awards
Elden ring sucks because there’s no Heimdall-like character lol.
Jk
LOVED Heimdell, he was such a jerk 😆
Lore is not story.
No argument from me!
See, my personal GOTY is Xenoblade 3. It's nominated, but I have no confidence it's going to win.
That being said, Xenoblade 1 has the best story imo of the trilogy. As somebody who suffers from sensory overload hallucinations, Shulk being overwhelmed by his future sight struck a chord with me.
Oh yeah my husband loved Xenoblade 1, wanted to play 3 but hasn't gotten to that one yet. I'm glad you found a game that resonated with you in some way, I think it's such a cool feeling to see part of you represented and have definitely had those kind of moments myself. Really makes the game all that more special!
People who make the "you just don't get it man" arguments are stupid af.
Nothing about what elden ring does is subversive, there have been ambiguous narratives in main-stream gaming since the 2000s. Everyone is familiar with this type of storytelling and making that argument is just intentionally missing the point.
I think Elden Ring is a masterpiece and its one of my favorite games ever, but it does not deserve to be in this category.
What people experience is good world building and good atmosphere and are confusing that for a good story. I don't have the time to write an essay on what elden ring's story is missing and why it is definitely to the game's detriment imo but i will say i wish people were more capable of having honest reasonable arguments IN GENERAL.
I completely agree with you! There is little to no chance of having an objective, reasonable argument these days because people take everything so personally!
CGI Brainrot... I totally understand.
Imo, Elden Ring has no story, just events, occasional mumbo jumbo, item descriptions that are cringe.
At least some weapon designs and fashion souls makes sense or just making a meme out of it.
Even Tetris has a more engaging story.
You can all keep loving your elden ring narrative, or inventing one at least.
What you’re talking about is lore, not story. The game has no story.
I agree
You see the same from GOW fans towards ER fans. “ER has graphics from PS2”, “It’s just Dark Souls on an open world”, “there’s not even a story”, etc.
You making a video about those? 🤣 Please don’t. No need to add gas to the fire! Have fun! 😊
Comments about a game should be no big deal, comments from ER fans telling people they are stupid are much different. People are getting so insanely personally offended over anything said about ER it that they’re lashing out against people with insults.
@@kitetales Yeah that’s stupid. The community is huge and has its fair share of gatekeepers. But it’s not exclusive to ER/FS. It’s just that this community is much larger and louder.
It’s the internet too. People insult and get offended over everything 🤣
The only way elden ring is this high in the rank is because all the other games this year have been unplayable or just an extremely buggy mess that's the only reason why Elden ring is this far even though throughout its development it has been nothing but a disaster I've lost three characters on my PS5 and then I lost two characters on my PC then I lost two more on the seamless Coop mod yeah this game kind of sucks can't give it really any good credit because it's a dark souls 2 remake look at the guys who explode this is a prequel to that game even if it isn't a remake it's got to be a prequel which also sucks because dark souls 2 was garbage and not even part of the story neither was its DLC scholar of the first sin none of that actually was story
Wow that stinks about losing your characters!! ☹️ Yeah I wouldn’t really care for something after having that many bad experiences with it.
Touch me
👉🤡
Right there?
Souls games aren’t heavily narrated which is what a lot of people think story is. Instead of long cutscenes, Souls games focus on environmental story telling, item description, and NPCs explaining the narrative. It takes more thinking so you do have to have higher IQ to enjoy it.
Will eating Schezwan Sauce raise my IQ?
I think this is a joke, but I'm not sure. Just in case, I will point out the obvious. Liking environmental storytelling does not take brain power or IQ, it just takes patience and caring enough to go look for the lore. It can be more satisfying when you figure something out on your own, and it may make you FEEL smart, but it doesn't actually make you smart. Plus how many it takes basic reading comprehension to read an item description, and anyone can fill in the deliberate blanks in the lore where you are supposed to fill in the details.
Also tell me with a straight face that the majority of people who understand the story didn't just look it up on youtube instead of combing through item descriptions.
I'd say bloodborne dark souls dark souls 3 are the only ones that actually count as a soul's game to me because demons souls I'm sorry not really that interesting I like it but not as much as the other three