Does FromSoftware Make Narratives? | Cold Take
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
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This week on Cold Take, Frost explores the FromSoftware "narrative" discourse following the game's recent nomination for Best Narrative at The Game Awards.
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"Video games don't do empathy better, they do apathy better, which aids the empathy", might honestly be the deepest video game take I've heard all year.
I love how he brings up the indie games (other smaller budget titles) that bring different types of storytelling in the way FromSoftware has done for their SoulsBorne titles. It brings to the forefront that many games are trying different things, but so many are thrown in the chaff pile.
Mostly because most of em Try to Milk the ''souls like'' genre yes?
They innovate on mechanics make something looks cool but We already seen or already played it so it falls to chaff easily
@@Terraqueo22 I meant specifically in storytelling, but I guess that relates to gameplay when considering SoulsBorne games.
consider this: most that don't like abstract storytelling dislike it because they feel that artistically fueled emotional pieces are on to precisely nothing and are just there to swindel you like a 50000000 dollar painting of random paint splatters. Complexity/forward knowledge means owning up to all the things you may have "missed" in media/art and that can feel VERY painful. Like you convinced yourself you were smart but were actually completely ignorant. Go back even 200 years and such a felling would mean ostracization and perhaps death (like the witch trials).
Could anyone kindly name the games we actually saw on screen while he was talking about that?
@@troiaofficial2818it’s not even abstract art. Souls stories are very straight forward most of the time. I think the core problem is people latched onto the idea that video games should just be movies. They based their judgement of video game delivery on how “close to another medium this piece of work is”. Somehow “good narrative” requires people talking, emoting or words being read. Yet I’m pretty sure movie directors are praised for their ability to communicate through the visual and sound alone without people having to talk!
"The video game version of the Silmarillion" Given that Silm is my favourite Tolkien book now I understand why I love Elden Ring so much.
Yuck what a pathetic “look at me” thing to say.
You know what, FromSoft SHOULD make a Silmarillion game! They should change NOTHING about how they make their games, just make it The Silmarillion.
@@Charolette21 Hm, the problem is that there is no particular corruption of the natural order going on in Tolkien's world.
Miyazaki's games always take place at the brink of disaster. When the world has been drudging through a system which has been breaking down for so long that all of existence threatens to collapse. Often the only conclusion is to allow the system to trudge on its current course to disaster or else to stave off disaster for a little while longer.
Middle Earth is downright utopian in comparison.
There is a god and everything goes according to its designs.
The travails and dark times are compliments to the joyful and harmonious ones. The sorrows of the elves, the ascendence of humanity, all sections in a greater score.
The conclusion of which seems to be some eventual triumphal return to the great unity of the past.
I'm not sure it would really be all that appealing to Miyazaki if I'm honest. Not as far as game settings go.
@@rainbowkrampus he could do kind of what the Mordor games did and fudge continuity a bit. It would be like making a souls game out of the original Legend of Zelda. All that needs to be severely altered is a bit (and I mean A BIT) of lore changes, the FromSoft treatment when it comes to all the gameplay and visual elements, and BOOM! You got a new FromSoftware title!
One of the greatest accomplishments of the Souls series is how much discussion about game design they've prompted.
It is to their credit that whatever they're doing is so interesting that they've been a constant topic of discussion among gaming enthusiasts since Dark Souls came out.
Completely agree. Even if some ppl don't like or get them, their impact is undeniable.
This continues to be a spectacular series with top-shelf narration. Easily an insta-click every time it pops into my subscription feed.
agreed,
i feel like i recognize the voice but i just cant put my finger on it!
I used to only watch one Escapist series (you know). But thus one grabbed me immediately. I hardly play anymore, but I love the discussions this channel brings. Different, but good.
Sekiro is proof that they can make a game with a more upfront narrative. It's just that they mostly have made games where you insert your own character, aka RPG's, so the narrative is taken as if you don't know jack shit. It's probably the most realistic interpretation of if some nobody was forced to fight god.
I think FromSoft just can’t pull off interesting, real-time stories. Sekiro tried to have characters interact with one another, but it all felt flat, and didn’t intertwine well with the more interesting plots/arcs hidden behind lore barriers. The only exceptions to this are cutscenes. It’s unfortunate that most interactions with other characters in these games happen through boring exposition dumps with motionless assets
@Zippydsm Lee Yeah Elden Ring’s story was pretty lame since it sorta just felt like DS1 but much less interesting and repetitive. Tbh I know it’s hard for games to portray a good story without pure cutscenes, I’ve just been spoiled by things such as God of War (2018) and What Remains of Edith Finch
I definitely give FROM credit for being able to portray singular characters so well through body language and fighting techniques
@Zippydsm Lee Damn wtf was RR Martin even hired for lol
Those aren't exactly sonynomous.
The Witcher series showed us that it is perfectly possible to have a good immersive RPG experience with a known character with preestablished reputation and personality.
I think Elden Ring stumbles harder than DS1-3/Bloodborne because it tells the story like those earlier games without taking into account that it's an open world now. I played at launch so I didn't even know there was a tragic demihuman tailor because he's disguised as a bush and they hadn't patched it to make it so you can hear him from further away yet. And of course there was every other NPC who didn't have map markers until the patch. Where do we draw the line for narrative? When the player has to datamine the details directly from the game files?
100% agree, in Elden Ring i feel like it's so hard to get attached to the NPCs - compared to the gigantic size of the world, they're these tiny breadcrumbs that you can literally go 5+ hours without ever talking to them again, and they say like 5 lines of dialogue that are either incredibly vague, or they say precisely one clear thing about the lore, and then they disappear somewhere off to an area the size of Florida...
there's definitely a couple exceptions, like Ranni is cool, and the blacksmith guy in the Roundtable Hold is pretty neat... but in Dark Souls 1 in particular, the semi-linear design ensures that you'll almost always be crossing paths with someone who's got interesting things to say, and you'll keep seeing them as long as you continue along your path, or go out of your way to return to areas where it makes sense for them to be
who knows why i'm supposed to care about being Elden Lord, because every character's input on the matter is either "being Elden Lord is good!" or "being Elden Lord is STINKY and the TREE is BAD >:(" with no real reason for either... like obviously it's a lot more complicated than that, it's a story about how humanity is trapped under the will of several outer gods, and the conflict stems from whether or not you want to repair the order, or flip the bird to those gods... but OOF, it's obnoxiously hard to engage with or care about that when barely anything tells you about it until the last 1% of the game
I didn't realize this was a controversy, but at least IMO the story is 100% there. Sure it's not up front but it DOES exist and is wonderfully presented. That's how gaming works. It's an interactive medium. Not a film with occasional game sections.
👏
This comment is funny to me because Immortality (another nominee) is quite literally a movie with occasional game sections.
Elden Ring has no business winning any award relating to narrative, whether it’s there or not.
It’s an absolutely terrible story and one they’ve retread over and over again.
The fact that they actually make players dig and dig for something that trite is insulting.
@@cautionroguerobots You're entitled to your opinion, but "absolutely terrible" is just objectively wrong. And the fact that you don't even make a single point makes you strike me as a troll rather than a person with actual opinions.
Story is not the same as narrative though, and Frost alludes to that too. I like Elden Ring's story too, but the way in which it is presented, its narrative, does not come close to matching it.
Tunic got snubbed pretty hard. It does all the lore and world building that Elden Ring does, but keeps it in such a super tight package that it's bursting through the seams while maintaining a coherent narrative that does a pretty flashy 360 noscope on ya because it's written completely in a different made up language.
That was kind of my feeling about Death's Door last year, too. An absolutely touching and unique narrative overshadowed because of its smaller team and budget
I dunno. I just couldn't get into Tunic. It's lore isn't nearly as deep.
Love how the footage here is just the player constantly jumping and driving off ledges
I do get a bit tired of the whole medieval apocalypse clean up simulator.
I’d like to see these places at there height, From always makes you feel like you’ve arrived 5 minutes after the parties over.
I guess it makes sense that I enjoy these as much as I do with Disco Elysium then... actually love that concept of late arrival into a world and playing around that? Less of going through a greatest hits album and more of a discography while not knowing there was an album like that until its timely play
@@catharticgemini Yeah it’s good but we’ve done it like 6 times now.
I may not fully understand the From Software stories, but dammit I like and appreciate them. There’s way too many interactive movies getting all the praise in this industry. From has the balls to actually use the medium in unique ways.
It has narrative, sure, but you kinda say it yourself, without saying it - is it even good narrative? This game is great, I don't like soulslikes and I sunk 100+ hours into it. It has addictive gameplay, great worldbuilding, awesome decadent atmosphere. But telling a story is not it's strongest suit, and the stories it tells with all the effort it takes to understand them, well, some are good, some are okay, in my unfinished playthrough I found one that was awesome (the witch, the wolf, and the giant) - maybe it has more, I didn't dive that deep into it. But that's the thing, I'm a story guy, I play things like Disco Elysium or even Wasteland 3 purely for the story. I even immensely enjoyed Cyberpunk and didn't mind the bugs, because of how good, and well presented its story was, nevermind the lackluster fighting mechanics. But Elden Ring's stories are just not that awesome in comparison, people do the lore digging you mention purely because of how great that game is otherwise. Does it really deserve a nomination in this area as well?
I rather agree with this. I'm in the process of playing the other FromSoftware games and was playing them before Elden Ring. I'm used to how FromSoftware does things with having obscure lore and narratives, but Elden Ring pushes it to rather ridiculous heights. Bloodborne is pretty easy to follow, relatively speaking. Sekiro has the most clearly stated narrative of them all. I have more hours in Elden Ring than I do the others because progress is easy to make thanks to it being an open world game. I don't keep track of my deaths in these games, but I know I've died more in Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 than I have in Elden Ring even with 60+hours in Elden ring vs 30-odd hours in Dark Souls 3. However, I'm not really invested in the story or the NPCs. Patches and Boc are the only 2 I care about. People keep talking up Ranni, but I got annoyed with her nosing in on my fight with Rennala like that. Elden Ring is the FromSoftware game I play when I need a break from the relentlessness of the other FromSoftware games.
@@SolaScientia Renni's storyline is one I did care about, the one i mention above, the one that was awesome. Not because of Renni though, she doesn't matter in this story too much, others do. I also know what my other problem is. Elden Ring (I haven't played other from soft games) tells the story of a world that has been. You might as well have been an alien tourist in it and you wouldn't experience more involvement. That's an interesting take, but I don't think it makes for compelling storytelling or helps you get invested in the stories.
@@evraght That's sort of the whole deal with FromSoftware games except for maybe Sekiro. In FromSoftware games you're always some random nobody among many nobodies.
In Dark Souls 3 you're an unkindled one and not the only one. You're just the one who can succeed where the others have given up. In Bloodborne you're a hunter, and, again, one of many. In that case you're given a choice at the end and if you accept the offer you are killed and wake up in the proper world. All the graves in the Dream are hunters and at least one is yours already.
The Souls games and Bloodborne do a much better job of telling the story they do, because they're more linear in comparison. Yes, you can explore, but there's only so far you can go in each area and there is always a boss at the end of the area blocking your progress ahead (excepting the dead end optional areas). It's not like in Elden Ring where you can skip at least half of Raya Lucaria and still be able to fight Rennala. Stormveil is closer because of how much progress is linked to killing the 2 bosses. Even then though, I know the castle can be skipped entirely, which is also weird to me.
So yeah, it's always the story of you arriving in a world that's already on its knees and you can bring it back up, if you think it's the right thing to do, or you can help it fall with the intention that a new world will be born from the remnants of the old. In Dark Souls if you choose to let the fire fade, then it's clearly stated that eventually new flame will rise from the dark. If you link the flame again, then the world will continue with a new age of fire, but Dark Souls 3 at the end rather shows the results of continuing to link the fire and that prolonging the inevitable isn't always a good thing. It comes down to what the player thinks is a good thing. For Elden Ring I'm aiming for the ending that involves Fia (Age of Duskborn), because that's the closest to the endings I tend to prefer in FromSoftware games.
I don't accept the idea that soulslikes have stories or narratives.
I reject the idea that video games, by virtue of being interactive, somehow have to communicate their stories in obscure ways. Sure, the game that has endless cinematics lasting for 10-20 minutes is worthy of mockery, but before Dark Souls ever existed, Half Life 2 and BioShock (and BioShock 2) told their stories without taking control away from the player and through audio diaries. They had protagonists, antagonists and fleshed out characters. They had conflicts.
Those elements I'd consider to be the basic building blocks of a story, and I don't think the presentation (at least) in soulslike games gives us any of them. Most of the time, you're given very little to engage with as a protagonist or an antagonist to oppose, your motivation as a player is simply to overcome the challenge in front of you for its own sake. That's not a story on its own, and I don't think you should need to read into lore, or item descriptions, or anything else to understand a game's story--it should be very explicitly and straightforwardly presented to the player.
The most entertaining thing to do about the Silmarillion is to go to the wikipedia page and edit in more Ls into the name and see how many you can add across the whole article before anyone notices.
I really wish some people from the Escapist got to have input into which games make it to the game awards. You guys have strong and respectable opinions.
We’re not popular enough on Twitter to be considered one of the “good ones” 😎
@@theescapist Humbug! 😎
@@theescapist well, and there was that whole period of time-before you took over as EIC and brought the Escapist into a fresh golden age of established and new content-that the site had essentially been shuttered after years of being run by, let's charitably say, a person that had an unreasonable amount of hostility, didn't pay a lot of the staff, and reports of much worse. Now, I was never behind the scenes like you and select others, but it seemed like a not great time to be staff up through 2019.
However, I was straight up delighted when you got the chance to come up, put out the fires, and restructure everything from monetization, to staff pay, content, negotiations, and getting with the new parent company (most recently, at least). Ya'll are collectively the sole reason that deez nuts have registered a patreon account at all.
So, while I think that memory of the Escapist before your overhauls and team building still exist in the twitterverse, I don't think it's going to be for much longer. Assuming twitter exists in a few years, anyway, given the recent change in their own-I really hesitate to dignify the new mgmt with the word leadership.
@@theescapist although if Slightly Something Else is any indication, Nick would likely put the awards in his "pee hole" to hand them out... So maybe it's a good thing 😂
If Elden Ring wins best narrative then FromSoft needs to cut VaatiVidya a check
FromSoft games don't have Story. They have Lore. You're just there after all the interesting shit happened and told to go do things for no clear reward. Also, every NPC is doomed, and there are no happy endings.
The only exception is Sekiro, where you play as an actual character with personal stakes instead of some nobody CAC.
they don't have story? What's the lore about??????? ??
That's exactly how I feel about fromsoft games. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it makes them bad, but it's the main reason I can't play most of them. It's like playing in an empty world, and I hate that feeling. I like it when games felt lived in, I love seeing some semblance of life in a video game world. Besides, a story is a major drive to play the game for me. In here it's like, wtf am I doing here? I don't know anyone, and the only way to interact with anyone is by bringing them stuff and killing stuff, and there's no conversation either, people are just telling their story by themselves. It's like I'm eavesdropping or i'm invisible to them.
I remember when an acquaintance of mine chided me for being too lazy for not understanding DS's story I rolled my eyes told him "As if you didn't watch lore RUclipsrs to find out what's going"
Unrelated, I need a whole game or book series with the narrative narrated by this oak-barrel deep voiced narrator.
"Just because a narrative doesn't care about you doesn't mean it isn't there."
You should be proud of that quote.
Yeah it's official, yall have another banger on your hands, at least as far as I'm concerned. Been watching escapist for years, and this is the first time I've caught myself just as excited for this as I am for ZP.
Can't wait for next week.
Man, I adore this series already, I watched all 3 videos twice today. It's the first non Yahtzee related Escapist series since Sterling left that I've really loved, made me resubscribe to this channel now.
They call him Frost but his voice is warm like molten chocolate
4:12 Core memory unlocked.
Also had to read "By the Waters of Babylon" in High School. I had completely forgotten about it, and yes while playing Horizon: Zero Dawn I had this little itch in the back of my mind that I couldn't quite place, but as soon as you joined the two together in the video it's like. "No DUH that's why it felt familiar"
I had the same feeling as well, but then I stopped playing it thanks to having numerous little issues with the game that added up to a lot of annoyance and boredom (similar complaints Yahtzee has with the games).
Delightfully chill take
Something in which ER, and some DS1's stories, triumphs is in the emotional payoff of some characters. Some will believe these game doesn't have emotional hooks, but some characters proves that wrong:
-The Enslaved Blacksmith and Roderika got to the end, willing to die close each other, knowing they have nowhere to go, yet wanting to helping you.
-Alexander is another beautifully written character, getting as far as Farum Azula and wanting to have an honored fight with you. He felt humbled when he couldn't survive Radahn, yet he accepted that he couldn't get as strong as you.
-Hoslow sacrificing himself for the Jar village, after his brother and servant's death, and leaving his body so they can feed from him, shows him rejecting his family story until using it as gift to protect others.
-Rya revealing her true identity and accepting her heritage (supposed daughter of Rykard, which is gross), calling you her champion. The fact that you can help her accept her true identity, in a place as vile as Volcano Manor, gives depth to the world.
There's more, like the disgusting Mogh and his experiment with Michella, the despicable Dung Eater usurping your body, and the horror tragedy of Malekith (his questline).
DS1 has Solaire and the Onion Knight with his daughter. Both interesting and tragic stories. DS2 has King Vendrick accepting his futile attempts and hiding from his wife. His brother Aldia losing his body for the avoidance of the undead curse. And DS3? Gael and the hole painted world are just fascinating.
EDIT: Gramma.
It's implied that Zoraya is daughter of Daedicar and presumably a serpent(?) not Rykard himself
The thing that gets me about DS1 will always be Artorias, because by going in and giving his soul relief you inadvertently build his myth even more in subsequent games. An unexpected depth in the consequences of your actions.
Me and my friends spent more time discussing the story in Elden Ring then any other modern game I can think of besides maybe Disco Elysium. It's really fun and interesting comparing your theories with other people's. Discussing how this one line dialogue or item description can help to fill in a character history.
i feel like the reason for that is that elden ring's (and souls games in general) story is very incomplete and leaves a lot to the imagination, no wonder you talk a lot about it considering how much you spend just trying to make heads or tails of any of it. you're not really discussing the complexities of a characters actions and words or why the curtains were blue, but rather talking about the description of a poop jar you found on a secret passage of a cave in the middle of nowhere that mentions a character named "the comptemptible piss enjoyer"
@@guilhermecardoso2365 100% agree dude. Elden Ring's storytelling is garbage. Fun gameplay for the most part, but narrative... nearly non-existent
@@Revi0us It can not be non-existent if there are videos out there discussing the story for hours on end. The problem is it's well hidden, you need to use *some* imagination and people have zero patience and need everything explained or it doesn't count.
@@Revi0us did you watch the video?
@@elididde3377 Yep, don't agree with it. You can call it an interesting narrative all you want but the reality is that it's not there. Boring storyline, probably the biggest disappointment of the game considering how much the story was hyped up with throwing George Martin's name everywhere on it
Holy shit that second hand lions plug came out of nowhere. I completely forgot that movie existed until now.
I don’t think I saw many people saying ER had “no narrative”, most were saying it had a wafer thin one. It comes down to people’s interpretation of narrative. Does “Lore and Backstory” count? Most of interesting details are past tense. Not a lot of new stuff happens during the span of the game itself.
It’s like an archeologist digging up an Ancient Greek city. We are engaged with the lore of the Greeks daily lives, past elections and art, natural disasters and wars. But that’s not the archeologist’s story. Their “Story” is that they spent a few years on their knees digging in the dirt, and many untold hours at a desk trying to interpret the markings on some pottery.
Nothing really to say, but I enjoyed this video. Thanks for making and sharing it.
I've never seen Cold Take before but now I feel like you need to be narrating an old-school Noir novel
Honestly, I'm surprised I'm not watching the intro to a Fallout game after hearing that voice. I melted
There was a lot of falling in this video.
My problem even now is they give you no reason to be elden lord. The game just says go be elden lord. And I ask why. There are no people to help, no world to rebuild, no idea to chase. Without say the elden beast is the secret villains or Marika was wrong idea was. I would have no reason to care about her.
Honestly I wouldn’t say “no reason”.
Truthfully speaking the initial reasons you’re given for being Elden lord are pretty vague. At first it’s just because that’s what tarnished so and Meleni wants you to, which for a lot of people can be reason enough.
But when you actually explore, do the various side quests, and find these different people who all have different reasons for you to be Elden lord the game does something interesting in that it lets you choose what reason you have based on which ending you’re going after.
Even if you don’t go after a specific alternate ending though, the environmental storytelling and state of the world can also be a reason in and of itself. It’s heavily implies things have gone to shut cause rhe Elden Ring is shattered and the fundamental laws of the universe don’t work like they should. So if your reason is just to make the world better for the few NPCs you get to know along the way then that’s also a reason.
But none of this is explicitly spelled out for you except for the “The world has gone to shit and we need an Elden Lord to unfuck it” one until you go explore for more information.
And if you explore the world you learn becoming elden lord isn't the right ending rather the age of stars...
If you think becoming elden lord isn't worth it then stop playing
that's a good ending that matches with the lore lol
@@AverageTrainEnthusiast You still can't save the world though. The best you can do is wrestle control from the Golden Order and give it back to the Empyreans and hope that that fixes things. All other endings are various crappy variations of letting the unnatural cycle continue.
Similar to how in DS1 you can side with Kaath but all that does is destroy everything, it's the only path that can lead to a good ending but you don't know it does, everything just gets destroyed and a good ending is hoped for.
@@theaudjob3267 Even Age of Stars isn't it cuz no one says the Empyreans were amazing and there isn't much more epilogue than the other endings.
I really like how From narratives dump the player into the action after all the cool stuff as happened. You're arriving almost at the end of time. You rarely glimpse these worlds at their peak.
Except in Elden Ring you're about to begin a new era and at the end of the game
it feels like you've just finished a chapter in History (your story) rather than an end of time scenario.
@@victorprati7908 Nah same old same old. Either you light the fire or you let the world die, just better disguised.
@@88Opportunist there is a little more to it than usual, thanks to optional content: you could bring aliens down by killing a dude who loves his horse
@@VeritabIlIti just a little indeed. Though the dude has to die either way. But you can set up lone-"god" dictatorship in addition to the usual options.
@@88Opportunist i guess the thing that separates Elden Ring from the rest of the soulsborne crowd, and especially from conventional linear narratives like GoW, is the fact that beyond a glowing light and a vague objective, the player has absolutely no idea what they are actually meant to be doing. GoW: Ragnarok's story revolves around the prevention or fulfillment of prophecy, and Elden Ring similarly gives you prophecy. But it's never clear wtf becoming Elden Lord means or how to do it, compared to the relative simplicity of do I light this fire again. That's partially because the game avoids giving you answers to anything, but because of that there is more of a sense of agency, I feel. You do things in linear games because that is what must happen, but in Elden Ring if your character happened to spend the rest of time staring at a cliff, that seems plausible. Which is great for role playing... Maybe not great for plot.
The main way that Fromsoftware games tell their stories isn't via item descriptions, but the gameplay itself and environmental design. Sure, there's character dialogue, flavour text, and so on, but it's what the player does and the obstacles they face, the visual and mechanical design of both the areas and the enemies, the atmosphere, and even where certain items are placed that tells the story. Yeah, it's not up front, but it's there for those who go looking, using methods unique to video games, the narrative and gameplay closely intertwined. Even the confusion and lack of knowledge is intentional, as they want you to feel like the character, thrown into this vast, unknown world with just the clothes on their back and the will to go out there and learn for themselves what happened and what's going on right now. If one were unwilling to do that, well, that's on them, and that is PERFECTLY fine if they want something more direct. It's just annoying hearing them say that there's no narrative simply because it didn't suit their tastes, especially against the claims of those who were willing to put hours into learning, observing, and figuring the story out.
That cut to Malenia's area is almost as good as the writing on this video. Almost.
I think the big issue is between the definition of what is narrative and what is lore. Where I think from soft games do have a narrative they are most certainly more lore heavy then narrative heavy (besides Sekiro).
Agreed, FromSoftware absolutely makes narratives, and yes, it requires player input. But that's the nature of most artistic pursuits; if there were a book that popped into existence which nobody ever read or wrote, it certainly doesn't "tell a story". Once someone read it then the narrative has what it was missing, audience interaction, and that brings the narrative from hypothetical to real. And once realized, THEN the discussion of good or bad becomes relevant.
Out of context, this sounds like a defense of "Waiting for Godot" or "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead" or any other non-story title... Which I think is an apt point. Well spoken.
The story exists in all of these games but its certainly not the focus and in a way the vagueness the stories are shouted in leave enough room for your imagination to always make them interesting at the very least.
The do the souls games have narratives question is a distraction from the actual question: do they have GOOD narratives? A trickier but more valuable question. I personally feel they are lacking, not because the narrative is fragmented (although that can be distracting) and not because they're hard to understand(they're not), but because they often lack any emotional hooks. These content creators do more than just piece together the narrative in digestible formats, the breath life into them.
The content creators processed the narrative and were able to see the life in it for them to then communicate it in the video. My friend who’s first fromsoft game was Elden ring fell in love with it and the story but he’s very thorough when he gets into things. It’s subjective. He and many others do consider them good narratives. My favorite is Bloodborne
I have 2 big problems with fromsofts storytelling, and while alot of other games share these problems. Some games even being older then Demons Souls. I feel Fromsoft is partially to blame for bringing these storytelling techniques into the mainstream. The 2 biggest problems i'm talking about is the... i'm not really sure if there's a name for this style of storytelling yet but the "We'll purposely leave this part of the lore as vague as possible so the theorycrafters can fill in the blanks for us". And the second one is kind of an offshoot of that mentality but the use of the Unreliable narrator. Both i'm well aware can be a pretty good tool to create online discussion and bolster the community of your game. But nowadays is more and more being used as a Crutch so that writers don't have to write an actual story, case the community will just fill in the blanks for them.
I'd say the first thing is actually a genius move. Because you're supposed to be just some bumbling guy who has no real relation to the core narrative. As such, it's only natural that the game doesn't flat out explain everything to you, the way it would in a traditional narrative where the player expects to have an objective eagle-eye perspective and be told all the important information, as in, say, a Homerian epic. The thing about FromSoft's storytelling is that it eschews this traditional all-knowing player who gets all the important information, in favor of a character who just wanders into a world where the lore and the history is not told to us by an objective narrator but simply by the world. As it is in real life - we can try our best to puzzle together history by looking at the evidence, but there is no objective narrator to tell us exactly what happened. It really makes you feel like a stranger in the world, not the holder of the privileged protagonist perspective. I disagree that it's a crutch, I think it is an absolutely essential part of their style of narrative, and it would not work nearly as well without it.
I believe the trope you're looking for is "story breadcrumbs" where you get little bits of story scattered about but it's never just summarized to you in game
@@MrDalisclock I wouldn't really call it narrative breadcrumbs since that would imply all of the storys actually went anywhere. I would more call it "Narrative carrot and stick". Leading you around into thinking an answer is in game but its not. I wouldn't say EVERYTHING needs to be answered but the problrm is when things can easily be answered but aren't just so Vaati can put out a video about it. Also something that really annoyed me in Elden Ring is how many of the quests just... ended abruptly. Most of these actually being killed abruptly to lead you into the ranni quest. For example is Rogier, his quest kinda just ends when you do everything you can for him so they kill him off. Another quest that just... ends is Blaidd, after you beat Radahn the next time you see him he's hostile with like... no warning. I guess you could say the NPC invader outside the Lake of Rot is KINDA a hint at his fate but since it's not confirmed if the invader is Blaidd or not then i wouldn't say its a hint. One last NPC quest that isn't a part of Rannis Quest but also abruptly ends is Hewg's. So what after you bear Maliketh he forgets about you and becomes a redundant NPC whose only real purpose is to upgrade your weapons and there's no real hint that this is what will happen beforehand? And before you say. Yes, I know that Fromsoft is notorious for having sad endings for their NPCs but that's not what I mean. Most NPCs with sad endings before elden ring at least ended their quest with a form of... finality. But the quests I gave + alot more felt so abrupt and out of left field.
@@truefox1259 Do YOU even call Hewg's development throughout the game an actual quest?!
About Rogier is more like he is part of Ranni's quest aNd not that he has his own quest same goes for Blaidd and Iji. I think you're tripping into thinking all the characters should have their own endings or conclusions when in fact they're minor steps in the bigger picture. Even Ranni might not be the "main character" in her quest and is just following her teacher's words who knows.
I wonder what narrative even means anymore? Seems to me that only emotional dialogue, cutscenes and walking sections are considered narrative these days. Even some years ago environmental storytelling was considered narrative driven. Games like Firewatch, The Witness, Inside or older games like Ico, Shadow of the Colossus were all called narrative driven games. Games like Splinter cell, MGS, PoP, Assassin's Creed and Arkham were all narrative driven and story driven games for me and a lot of us back just 10 years ago. Nowadays those games are not even considered narrative driven but just a game with a story. Only games like Uncharted, TLoU, GoW, Life is Strange, RDR2 etc. are considered narrative driven by most.
I even got people on reddit saying Witcher isn't narrative driven but RDR2 is because of the cinematic feel or something. I really don't even understand the definitions of lore vs narrative vs story anymore.
Super Mario Bros 1985 has my favourite narrative of any video game. It’s an epic story that never fails to bring tears to my eyes.
The thing with Souls storytelling that probably throws people off is that most of the story has already happened long before the start of the game. The player is simply their to resolve that story and piece together what happened.
I literally clicked into my FB messenger after you commented about the appendix larger than the book to make a Tolkien joke to my buddy whom I had sent the video too as soon as I saw it in the play list and there was already the connection being acknowledged in the video I adore it
Fantastic video Frost!! Love all the points, the references are great. I think you're really finding your stride too and I'm excited to see what else you come up with.
I think the main trouble is that souls games narratives are very evocative, intricate and full of capital-L Lore, but they basically never engage on a real emotional level. None of From’s characters ever feel like real human beings with agency and emotions, and while that’s part of the point I think there’s a big difference between an emotional character-driven Narrative and a grandiose worldbuildy esoteric book of Lore
Dark Souls3's dlcs and elden ring have improved a lot in that regard. The dlcs is basically you retreading the path Gael walked through (he even left behind phantoms as clue) and meet him near the end. Elden Ring has a lot of characters with a story arc: Boc and his self hate, Raya and her identity, Patches secret love, Gold Mask's philosophical practice meet Coryn's blind (literal) faith...
idk about that, man. Slave Knight Gael, Yhorm The Giant, Boc the beautiful bastard and Soul Of Cinder are amongst my favourite npcs in any game to date. Especially Gael, there's no long ass cutscenes to explain his motives, but if you actually pay attention, just a bit, you can feel the deep connection of his story and you, a mere ashen one. He's a nobody, just like our character in ds3, that had enough of fate and age of fire, decided that he wants to change this dying and repeating world for the sake of his niece. And that's just scratching the surface..
I enjoy many types of storytelling, hell, one of my favourite game is To The Moon, a more interactive "game" that lacks the "game" elements. I respect your opinion, but to me, Soulsborne type of storytelling is just as capable, if not proven, to be able to engage on a real emotional level just as well as any medium, but you just have to engage it yourself instead of the game telling it to you.
good day~
@@LSMadness "but you just have to engage it yourself instead of the game telling it to you." which already makes it terrible
That's interesting. I feel DS1 and Elden Ring have great characters with their own arc and urgency:
-I felt both bitter and relieved when the enslaved Blacksmith and Roderika got to the end, willing to die close one another, knowing they have nowhere to go, yet wanting to help.
-Alexander is another beautifully written character, getting as far as Farum Azula and wanting to have an honored fight with you.
-Hoslow sacrificing himself for the Jar village and leaving his body do they can feed from him.
-Rya revealing her true identity and accepting her heritage (supposed daughter of Rykard) and calling you her champion.
DS1's Solaire and the Onion knight and daughter were also a highlight. Gael from DS3? Also great.
The thing with souls games is the lore is there if you care if you dont, Go do Chosen Undead,Accursed, Ashen One , Hunter stuff...
The lore is there ripe for the taking, they are more expositive around the worldspace and characters . The lore purpose to intrigue the player to choosing an ending.
aside from that you can play however you want
For many this isn’t an issue but for me I would prefer more direct storytelling. I love their exploration in their games but the near complete lack of coherent storytelling is a weakness in my opinion. Just a little more direct storytelling would push these games to a whole different level. As it is, these games are already amazing.
It wouldn't take that much to nudge the narrative forward. Melina's history lessons are interesting, but she needs a few more lines about what is actually happening and what needs to happen next.
Great Job Escapist. I really enjoyed this haha. I'm happy you guys are still trying new things.
I was having a bad day until I heard this voice again, now it's the best day.
I still have more of a problem with sifu being considered a fighting game....
It's okay to dislike From's storytelling style or even the stories themselves, but saying they don't count as stories and should be disqualified from the category is just silly. It sounds like when your parents say your favorite band isn't real music.
I hope there's a followup video detailing other games you thought employed the Fromsoft narrative style that didn't get enough attention! I definitely want to see those and it might help drum up interest in them :)
This voice is fantastic. Reminds me of 1920s cigarette smoking PI with a dame in a red dress. Black and white setting, listening to a person explaining how life works through a medium that does not exist yet.
I don't smoke cigars, but after these cold take videos the desire grows ever so.
Does it have a narrative? Yes. Is it a roleplaying game? No, because at no time does it allow players agency to participate in an unfolding story via character creation/development and a branching dialogue tree. Rather, players are monologued at on occasion and offered nothing else to do in the game aside from killing everything that crosses their path with the toolset they're given and, of course, experimenting with various combat builds. Dark Souls games are specifically designed around their online PvP and co-op modes. The confusion is between a narrative players can only passively consume, as in Elden Ring, and an unfolding story players can actively participate in as in traditional RPGs.
I think the problem with the FromSoft story telling style is that the stories just have nothing to do with character. Things happened, stuff took place, people did things - but it’s all disconnected from Us and the Now, we’re discovering things that have already gone down, rather than participating your own active and current story.
personally, that's the best part for me. I've had enough of the story where our MC is at the center of it, or at least have a big part in it.
i like the story that treats the player just like someone existing in this world, the world is not centered around you, but you can certainly make an impact in it.
You're given a reason to exist, to be there, but that's it. I'd say, It's a perfect match for role-playing game.
@@LSMadness i don't disagree, I do enjoy it too but for me it still feels just a bit obtuse, sekiro however I think does narrative and storytelling well without being as obtuse. for me I much prefer the way alot of cyberpunk media handles it.
The MC is not a big hero or villan but someone who can change their own life and the life of a handful of people around them. Makes it feel more personal.
Sadly video game rpgs when compared to OG TTRPG games..... A world is already established, Characters already pre made.... Theres no much room for ''improvisation'', Custom Stuff is pretty liimited because of a world thats is already pre made
Tabletop RPG games have all that liberty of Custom playthrough.
When you talk about RPG video games, You might guess what the plot is
Hero saves the world from devil king, Dragon, Monster, Unknown Elder God with or without a party of jolly teammates while involving themselves in multiple situations.
@@fabiancastamere4761 If you squint really close Souls games feel exactly as that..
You start as a nobody and becomes something while affecting some people around you.. IF you wish to.
Sekiro already had a Character Preset which is wolf that his purpose is to help his master
Exactly. Each time you are are just there to wreck everything or provide the power needed to continue the unnatural cycle.
3:10 i was about to jumping there was a dumb idea but then it turned out to be a setup for a really cool cut so big respect
I always had the impression that piecing together the narrative from the clues you’ve been given was part of FromSoft’s draw. You get a weird cutscene or two and ask “why?”. You see something interesting out exploring, and ask “why?” again. So you start looking for clues, which answers 1 question in 20, before giving you a dozen more things to ask
I liked that mention of less established games struggling to get people to commit the effort for a less established publisher, I hadn’t thought about it before
The narrative is the most video game kind. The kind you build for yourself, I never watch Lore videos before playing fromsoft games because my zombie ass is building their own story. Generally with at least one accidental killing of a character I liked that leaves me saddened and generally down a path of evil quite on accident. If you don't have one FromSoft character you got to attached to on accident who then died at your hands you're playing the game wrong (RIP my boi Laurentius in my first playthrough)
Boc and Greirat
"I don't understand japanese, it doesn't mean anime doesn't exist, as much as I wish that was the case sometimes... it doesn't..."
such an underrated line...
From Software is the videogame equivalent of Gene Wolfe's narrative approach. You have to actively engage the story to really glimpse what is truly happening or what has truly happened. And they are both deceptive as all getout.
Lord of the Rings is what makes the Silmarilion what it is. FromSoft games have cool lore, but the lack of actual story or meaning to your character's actions and journey makes it hollow. It's like if Lord of the Rings was just a random soldier running round the world to kill Smaug, Saruman, Shelob, and Sauron for no reason. That's not a story.
can you enable automated subtitles, please? it sometimes sucks, but still helpful for non-native listeners to understand the talk. I would be glad if you enable it in extra punctuation, too.
This! Also HoH and d/D exist, and need subs. So if u don't upload actual subs urselfs, at least don't disable autocap
Damn, you would be a great narrator of something (or are if you indeed have narrated someting).
I've never played a fromsoft game but I watch and read a ton about videogames, and this "controversy" makes me think about an advice about writing : backstory is cool, but if there are parts in it that seems more interesting than what your current plot is, why not write about that ?
From what I understand that's the case in those games, you play after everything interesting has already happened and can't do much to improve (or f**k up even further) anything about the setting - but maybe I'm wrong of course.
I totally see where you're coming from, but I think this is where the medium is important. When reading or viewing that said less interesting story, of course the audience is more interested in that. But by inserting the audience as a player, all of a sudden it becomes less of a bore and more of a "what now?" In a way, the setting is a larger character than anything the player fights or controls. All of the games revolve around the state of the world instead of the player, and that simply wouldn't be the case if the player was the focus all the time.
Maybe next year nick will talk with Jeff about yall being there : - )
Such a jazzy series to give the escapist a run for their money
ER really shouldn't have been nominated for Best Narrative, Game of the Year definitely but not Narrative.
Edit: Like GRRM but he wasn't utilized properly; there should have been character interactions, roleplaying, narrative and visible changes that flow with the important bits of choices allowed to the player, interesting dialogue about character moviations.
Arguably there are character interactions (like saying you're beautiful to that monkey guy), roleplaying (plenty of quests ask you to side with someone or make a decision of sorts) and the actions you take throughout the game have huge impact on the environments. It's just that these games are so deliberately obtuse and vague it's impossible to realize this without following a guide.
Most AAAs are made in a way where if you're just mindlessly going through the motions you get all the information thrown at you. ER expects you to spend 10h fighting Malenia, and then spend 20h reading her item descriptions. Which is in my opinion a bit too much.
I don't think the video picks at the correct point, everyone knows ER has a narrative. But is a narrative most people wouldn't even realize is there and that requires hundreds of hours to understand, truly the best narrative?
@@JanVerny " hundreds of hours to understand" thats exagerating if you pay atention you can understand the gist of the story pretty easily,big godess died or was imprisoned civil war betwen her childrem ensues,the elden ring is the big macguffin etc ... its not that dificult
@@JanVerny I see where you're coming from but the game is linear to a fault when it comes to narrative; the choices your referencing are binary at best requiring no thoughtful input and they aren't even referenced throughout the world, any roleplay that takes place is in your 🌈imagination🌈, the changes that do take place are scripted and independent off one another, the 'story' is missing crucial story elements, to point at Malenia why does the player have to read about her character motivations in an item description when we could have her interact with the player? What if instead just spitting exposition to the player we have them work for it like in Fallout New Vegas, Deus Ex: Human Revolution, or Disco Elysium? The Dark Souls style of storytelling was novel in the fact that it requires you to piece things together like a detective but it hinges on the fact that the player can't directly communicate with the characters and doesn't work with how the lore and world-building function in ER, it's a world of political intrigue, Royalty backstabbing each other, shady organizations and entities making moves in the background and the player can't interact with any of it in a meaningful way😒 just do the fetch quests, go do the kill quest, collect X number of 'these', flip three switches😒. Seriously man, it's game of the year but it ain't perfect nor does it have a solid narrative.
@@JanVerny if it's arguable, perhaps it's not worthy of nomination for a prize?
@@00mongoose I think a nomination is not a big deal. ER does objectively have a narrative. Even though I would certainly be surprised if it wins an award for it.
1:18
JOHN STEED WAS IN COLUMBO!?
Elden Ring really doesn't deserve best narrative. It needs more forefront story, in addition to all the background story that it already has. Sticking to the forefront story should give one a skewed understanding, which only deeper search within the world can clear up. Best way to phrase it, is that From Software has masterfully done the story iceberg, except they forgot the 10% that one actually shows/tells
Hey Demon's Souls and Kings Field basically do have traditional stories. With protagonist characters, villains, ancient evils, the works.
Based on the content that was cut from Dark Souls it may even be an accident that it is the way it is, and From just rolled with it for DS2.
Souls games definitely have a narrative but its the narrative equivalent of the final page in a Where is Waldo book
You had the hammer winded back and then refused to nail it down in the conclusion. The average player can't enjoy that narrative in the experience of playing the game. So what then is the difference of not having a narrative and not being able to see the narrative as a self contained game. I honestly feel like you just folded like every other reviewer on being critical about the game.
This might be the most over protected, game in all of humanity to date. Even here you coddled it. It's amazing how much discussion the game generates and yet simultaneously how little people want to address this game.
I don't know why, is it because no one wants to risk reputation or deal with this community? Naming Elden Rings game of the year is depressing to me. So many other projects that attempted and succeeded so well in engaging players and better story telling... or even boss design/choreography, or just having literally anything unique. My gawd their menu optimization seemed spiteful+lazy. I don't know why this company continues to get a massive pass. I don't think that majority of casual gamers agree Elden Rings was good or new.
At least IMO, the obscurity is part of the narrative. The core narrative - and there is one - is an extremely simple story about an exile claiming rulership over the lands that rejected him. The lore, whether you engage with it or not, is meant to imply a sense of weight and loss to that narrative. Even if you don't know much about Radahn, you gain a sense that this was a great leader of these lands, once, and that his degradation and death is sad. You touched on this by calling it 'empathy.'
You can even delve into slightly alternative endings - and achievements data suggests most people do. The Stars ending requires a lot of side quests, but its more common than the vanilla ending. Even if you think that ER's vanilla storyline is a weak narrative, surely you have to concede that Ranni's plotline, where you make a doll into a god queen and marry her, is a proper narrative.
Good or bad? Well that's more subjective. But this IS a story. Absolutely.
Your example is interesting, as radahns story is one of the more fascinating elements of the narrative, but it involves a huge set piece and relatively long cut scene. Some of the story is told through context, but the main thrust is told pretty straightforwardly.
I like this piece and love the callout at "if you didn't like this narrative that means you're illiterate". I appreciate the artistry in the game but sometimes you want to watch Great British Bake Off instead of The Wire and I think that's fine
It does feel engineered to coexist with the content creator blogosphere or whatever the hell we call that now. I see this as a good move rather than pandering to vtubers - superficial lore and secrets don't generate the same buzz as the nearly-inscrutable.
First things first, Frost has a wonderful voice. Very smooth, very pleasant to listen to. Second, while I'm more in the camp of the "neighs" (I will never deny the worldbuilding but it's weak in terms of "plot" imo), I think this video does a great job of representing both sides of the argument.
6:38 pretty much.
Like, of course FromSoft does narrative, the issue is more that it's the same thing they've always done, I don't think they've done anything special in Elden Ring (it's even worse because they didn't bother giving the character a reason to do what they do), and lore is boring.
I was really sad about this whole fiasco since fromsoft is one of the only big developers that reject the modern AAA storytelling methods (i.e make a shitty movie or maybe a shitty movie where you hold forward.) And attempts to actually tell the story through interacting with the world and the game, even if the execution isn't perfect, they at least try to do it. The biggest thing holding back video game narratives in AAA games are the fact that they reduce themselves into a different medium. (Not to go full conspiracy but I can't help but feel like these studios do this since they feel like games are inherently a "worse" or a "less legitimate" medium for storytelling and they'd rather be working on movies instead) more lesser known games and Indies that completely embrace the medium of videogames tend to be infinitely more memorable.
I agree that’s what it is. They want to tell serious stories that end up being “Oscar bait” so gaming can feel mature. It’s funny I saw people reacting to the last of us hbo trailer saying things like “this is how you do a video game adaptation”. I’m like yeah no shit the game was already an hbo season adaptation. It’s a cross breeding trend happening. I don’t like when games try to be movies and I don’t like movie adaptations of games. Keep em separate. I know I’m in the minority though
lmao because video games are indeed one of the worst way to tell a story and movies are surely superior to it, I hate having the story told to me through interacting with the world and game instead with cutscenes.
@@hydrocy.9165 yeah a lot of people agree with you. People like the movie/game hybrid. I never considered the story of a game to be as important as how it plays. So if the story can be told as the player interacts with the game, it’s a much more organic and player driven narrative that way without getting slowed down by walk n chats and long cutscenes. It’s a preference and I know fromsoft fans are the minority in preferring this approach.
The one little comment about the game awards not existing until 2014 had me choking on my damn bagel this morning, thank you for that
I'm just here to post a comment to drive engagement on this vid because i like it and want to see more of it
For me, being someone who fell in love with SoulsBorne games with DS2 scholars (yeah, yeah, let the soulsborne purist come and tell me its the worst ds, you wont convince me that, and I still stand by that ds1 is the worst, but to each their own ;)) I think the whole wanting to know more, and search for a meaning and story behind the "nothingness" of soulsborne narratives/stories is that. Well, you end up finishing a god damn GREAT game. A masterpiece. You beat it again, maybe even platinum it. Play some PvP for a couple of hundred hours. But then what? You crave and WANT more soulsborne, and I feel the only logical place to get it then, to get your fix, is from all the interpertations of the narrative fromsoft makes, or doesn't make :P It's fascinating that it can sometimes make sense, and it's fascinating how rich the world can feel in your next playthrough when you suddenly know all the lore and story of more or less each and every enemy or friend you meet.
I like the natural progression you pointed out from a first time player, to finishing the game, to loving it enough to exploring every nook and cranny. Then if someone truly can't get enough after putting it down? Join the community and keep the conversation going for years and years. I'm happy to know there IS a massive community willing to put in the work journaling Dark Souls' world for those who can't get enough. Now, if only we can get Dragon's Dogma the kind of Renaissance it deserves ;).
Side note: Ah, another fellow DS II enjoyer! While I played the first one to death and back in 2013, I think DS II has more hours logged, more playthroughs beaten, and more PvP duels overall, even if there are some frustrating aspects to it like the janky hitboxes and over-reliance on team-ups during boss fights.
There's just something so magical whenever I think about DS II that I'm so glad I didn't miss out on, like seeing King Vendrick sulk around a giant room with an endless black horizon and a singular white light overhead, or getting absolutely floored upon seeing Dragon Aerie for the first time, or entering the memories of a deceased Giant and being placed directly in a battle between Giant and gods (something like that idk), or Majula being the best video game hub (don't @ me). Even the little things like the menu select sound effects, healthy variety of covenants, and the single best Fashion Souls to date (also don't @ me). Ahhh I need to play it again!
What the Souls don't have much of is a single PLOT in which several characters pursue their goals at the same time as the player, and cross the player's path.
Plenty of lore, backstory, but usually in Souls games, most of the story happened before the player arrived.
No one besides the player seems to actually do anything in Souls games. Still, there's storytelling, or actually backstory-telling. They create tense atmosphere in a way in a way I've not experienced before.
It's actually fine that they don't have much plot, I don't miss it, the "narrative" is still fantastic.
This isn't true, actually. There's not a lot of plot, it's a little obtuse, and it's really not my favourite way of doing things, but every single game in the series features a pretty big cast of characters progressing through the world and going through their own stories that you can choose to interact with--some of them are easy to miss, but many are right on the critical path.
This series is great! Top notch stuff, keep it up.
For me personally it feels more rewarding when a game doesn't try to shove its story down your throat, but instead let's you discover and understand what's happening by yourself. And this is why I enjoy the narrative in FromSoft games so much. I like to think of it as a difficult bossfight. Sure, it takes more effort to understand the patterns and to adapt your timing to each attack, but at the end of the day that effort will have paid off.
Not to say of course that a clear and well explained narrative can't be compelling; there are many examples out there. But FromSoft's way of storytelling makes me more invested in the worlds and characters they build more than a game which unloads tons of exposition and dialogue on mem
"And Sifu... was nominated for best fighting game in what I can only describe as the most simultaneously out of touch and in touch decision I've ever seen."
...yes, that's the phrasing. Damn it. I previously tried to figure out how to neatly describe the discrepancy between "a fighting game is a very specific thing and it is not that" and "it is definitely the best game about fighting most people care about" and I just couldn't, then you come along and hit it out of the park in a sentence. You're a damn solid writer.
People call Sifu a "fighting game"?
Fighting games are PvP focused.
Sifu is a Beat-Em-Up.
@@DJWeapon8 Yes, that's the point. It's not a fighting game, but at the time of the awards it was the most well known game about fighting out there. So nominating it was, as Frost said, simultaneously out of touch and in touch.
Great video
I don’t think you can define narrative by understandability. I think it can only be defined by engagement. If you story is so complex, an audience cannot engage with it, it’s no different from a story that is so simple, it’s not rewarding to engage with. I think From Software strikes an incredible balance of complex characters in a simple story. At its simplest form, Souls/Born stories are about a character going from one boss to another in a large, usually decaying, world. And that is enjoyable. But if you decide to engage with the story, with the characters, even with just the setting, you get a deeper and more engaging story. It create a loop that makes you WANT to engage with the story even more. In that sense, the best narrative is the one that makes you want to engage.
I agree that elden ring has a narrative but personally I don’t find this style of storytelling all that compelling, I prefer it when I can take part in and witness the plot first hand not come across it after all the interesting stuff has already happened. Fromsoftware is great at environmental storytelling but I don’t believe environmental storytelling is enough to make a story good on its own. Personally I feel that elden ring has a good setting not a good story and that the narrative is more of an atmospheric backdrop than something that rewards the player for engaging with it.
Wait, the fuck? Is this TheOtherFrost? He's the only reason I got into SMITE, and I loved watching his videos. This has to be the same guy. Such an amazing voice.
Yes he joined The Escapist a while back. Also does 3 Minute Reviews occasionally
I dunno
I feel like there many other games that did "narrative through reading chats and description" much better
Tunic comes to mind because you actually experience first hand how the ancient text unfolds and get to grasps with it within the game without needing 3rd party explaination
Another one is outer wilds
That games reward for anything you do is literally just more text yet it's done to such a better extent it's ridiculous
A lot of your points in the second half are why Black Ops 3 has the most underrated campaign in CoD history. While some may find it obscure, to those who understand it, it is quite spectacular.
Technically you can play any game out there and not understand whats going on if you don't engage with the story and pay attention. Just like in soulslikes
I think that's what's most annoying about more recent AAA games that Yahtzee has dubbed ghost train rides: they are completely preoccupied with keeping you engaged the entire time, to the point that your companion will spell out solutions to puzzles 5 seconds after you get to them (one of my few issues with GoW:R).
I am loving this series.
Sekiro as always is the best fromsoft game, with slightly more emphasis on a cohesive narrative and a main cast of characters they proved they can make a story while keeping their distinct style of item description world building
What is the grey vehicle driving game that’s being shown intermittently throughout this video?
Fromsoft tells stories using videogames, where as something like God Of War uses movies to do so. idk which one is better but you should give the Oscar to God Of War, because it's narrative is not of a game but of a movie.
I'm more interested in a traditional narrative like God of War than what to me is basically a history book for fantasy nerds.
@@avidfather1864 and that is valid and understandable 100%, but the thing is that you can have that kind of narrative as a game, my problem is that god of war is 80% movie 20% game. sony game have always been following a traditional narrative but the issue is that before they were integrated into the gameplay like uncharted 4, the gameplay IS experiencing the story but in my time with god of war the gameplay was just slashing some monsters (which was fun) and the narrative was watching the cutscenes
@@blue3094 No, it's not, you moron! I spend on average around 60-70 hours with GOW: R. Are you that dumb to think that i spend all that time just watching cutscenes?! The average length for GOW if you just play the story is 25 hours. The average completion length is 60 hours. That's 35 extra hours of side content you don't have to do. 80% movie, 20% gameplay, gimme a break with those kind of fucking moronic statements.🙄 And the gameplay is separate from the story cutscenes? Than from your opinion, 90% of all games ever made in the last 30 years must suck. Games like Ocarina of Time and Resident Evil 4 must be especially awful from your point of view.
Oh, so two people played Moonscars.
Now I'm just shook by Sifu's nomination 😵💫
I'm not up to date with the lore, what's wrong with Sifu's nomination?
@@OSDisco I think the issue is not with Sifu lore, but Sifu being nominated in the "Fighting games" category.
@@Szurumbur You're correct
@@Szurumbur oh yeah that makes sense. I would definitely not call it a fighting game, but a lot of people played and really liked it so if it won the category out, that'd be horrible.
@@Szurumbur the Slightly Something else where Yahtzee stunned everyone by insisting on it being a fighting game because the entire core loop is fighting was amazing!