Does Elden Ring's Lore Make Sense?
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- Опубликовано: 22 июл 2022
- Some spoilers. The lore of Elden Ring is confusing, but is there something beyond the murkiness or is it vague item descriptions all the way down?
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honestly I think the only reason people prefer Ranni's ending is that it's the one that has to most context and content to get it. The others are mostly just handed to you with little fanfare.
I just didn’t want to be maiden less 😢
There's a RUclipsr by the name of SmoughTown and he make video essays on the lore of Elden Ring and he recently made a video on Goldmask and his 'Perfect Order'. I think that video does a really good job at explaining not only Goldmask's ending but also the Golden Order and Those Who Live in Death too. Other than that, yeah, it is unfortunate that the other endings are not very fleshed out within the game.
And even then Ranni doesn't give enough context either.
I mean, even without that she is a promise of change against the idea of modifying what there is to the desires of 2 decent people (Fia and Goldmask) or of a madman (Dung Eater) or pressing the nuke button.
Plenty of reasons to prefer Ranni overall
I chose rannis without even knowing about the others and this is my grist fromsoft game, it felt like the game points you in rannis direction naturally but ofc you can go where you want.. I loved it tho now i'm on my second play through and i'm gonna go for gold mask ending
Ratatoskr, as much as I love him, was a bit hyperbolic. You can extrapolate macro themes out of what we’ve gotten. What I’m interested in are specific questions regarding the lore. Why did Radahn fight morgott if they’re both loyal to the golden order? What allegiance do the black knife assassins have? To what degree was Ranni involved in Godwyn being specifically assassinated, if at all. What are Marikas true intentions? What’s going on with Helphen? How was Marika an empyrean? What defines an empyrean? Who was the gloam eyed queen? If the god skin apostles are ancient, with characteristics resembling the crucible, how old is the gloam eyed queen as well? Is black flame a weakened form of Destined Death? Was it the rune of death or the Queens Greatsword that was the true source of the power of black flame? What is up with the more detailed version of the Elden Ring found in Farum Azula? How was Placidusax injured? Who was the God of the Ancient Dragons? Why do the scales of Placidusax specifically imbue weapons with the strength to kill gods? Who are all the nameless Demi gods in the walking mausoleums? How was Godwyn the first of the Demi gods to die in recorded history, but the incantation Noble’s presence states that it’s a trophy of a successful god hunt, though the current black flame isn’t capable of truly killing a god?
Morgott is not loyal to the Golden Order, he is loyal to the Erdtree, a subtle difference. Yeah, the black flame is a depowered or sealed version of Destined Death and can be seen in-game via the Gargoyle's Blackblade (Which also responds and at the same time supports finding Iji burning in those flames when he died at the hands of a Black knife). This is totally headcanon, but the fact that the GEQ is spoken of as an empirean chosen by the fingers, makes me think that at some point it was the successor of Marika and bearer of that "Ancient" Elden Ring, at least until probably rebelling and becoming as we know her today, a godslayer (And it is possible to assume that because of that there was a previous Shattering, after all, the contemporary Elden Ring can be fixed by only 3 great runes, so it is not unreasonable to think that there were more great runes in the past). I don't think the scales are necessary to kill a god as such, it's just saying because of his incredible strength. I don't think the Black knifes followed any other alignment after the night of the plot other than harnessing their power, even against Ranni, not for nothing their leader is locked up in the land of the dark moon. When talking about the godskin as godslayers I think they are not referring to Marika's lineage, but to the bearers, vessels or receptacles of the external gods, not Marika's lineage, but yes people like her. And it is uncertain to talk about how old the GEQ and the Godskin can be, since the same game already talks about Farum collapsing since time immemorial.
I watched another analysis video by Luigi that argued the point that Radahn was not explicitly stated to be loyal to the Golden Order. The video argued that Radahn admired Godfry more as a warrior than as a proponent of the Golden Order. Furthermore, Radahn's conquest of the stars was more an act of battlefield valor than an intentional decision to impede Ranni's goals. The main arguments supporting this stance stem from Jirren and Iji having relatively friendly relations with each other as Iji crafted rot resistant weapons for Radahn's army and Jirren speaks of Ranni in a positive light addressing her as "Princess Ranni." Additionally, when Iji figures out that Radahn is what is preventing access into Nokron, Iji does not speak of Radahn's conquest of the starts in a negative light. If anything I would like to know more about what specific events led to Radahn and Malenia clashing beyond simply being opponents in the War of the Shattering.
Wait, where is there lore about placidusax's scales giving the power to slay a god?
@@michaelwerkov3438 I believe the evidence for that point is in the description of the ancient dragon smithing stone. It states, "The Ancient Dragonlord's seat is said to lie beyond time. This stone lightly twists time, allowing the creation of a weapon capable of slaying a god."
ranni tells you she masterminded the entire assassination of Godwyn if you meet her during Rogier's questline
I'm with you and Crunchy in the thematic department. In Dark Souls, as you say, one of the grand lore themes is "stagnation," and the argument supported by that narrative is that "stagnation is a sign that the current order of things has run it's natural course, so the correct response is to allow what is stagnating to end so that new, fresh things can emerge." The big character conflict in Dark Souls is coming to that realization, in finally acknowledging that the world cannot be saved by continually linking the fire. At the end of the game, our big ending-deciding decision is "do we keep the lights on, or turn them off and finally go the fuck to bed?"
I think it's clear that Elden Ring is a continuation of these themes, a progression. Elden Ring begins with the assumption that everyone already understands that the current world order is fucked and broken and needs to end, and indeed this is supported texturally by each and every ending requiring the burning of the Erdtree, the destruction of the old order. Elden Ring then asks us to follow through on our thematic decisions from Dark Souls: "ok, so you've decided that the current order needs to end. What takes it's place, then? If not this, then what? If you've decided to turn the lights off for the night, what will you do come tomorrow morning?" It pushes us a step forward, and asks us to be creative, to dig deep and find inspiration for how we would like the new world to look like. Every ending of the game, every conclusion, is an affirmation of the theme that *something* needs to be chosen, that recognition of the stagnation of the old is only half of the equation, with the other half being the inspiration towards something new.
Well put.
The only difference from Ds, which I think must be considered or you lose a lot of context, is that the Erdtree wasn't the start of anything in the World, it just defined this Age of the world.
In DS the First Flame literally created the world as you know it. Accepting the Flame to end may be the natural course, but there was also plenty of reasons to keep it on. Fear of the Unknown, having personally seen the Monsters in the Dark, name it. But eventually in DS3 the world is in such a condition where this loses meaning.
In ER on the other hand, you perfectly know that the World had a large history well before the Erdtree. You see it as soon as the "Dinasty" stuff in the Rivers, you see it again and again over time. You see the ruins of their history and the remnants of their culture. You see Monsters from back in time (the Serpent) and from beyond the world itself (Astel), you know that the world is large and existed well before Marika and will exist well beyond you.
In addition, you have an explicit reference to the world outside. Beyond the Fog, beyond the Lands Between there are other Lands. Sure, that's where you and Godrrey went to fight and die, but it's also where the rest of humanity lives, apparently unrelated from the War and destruction of the Lands Between (albeit probably affected by the fact that the being known as God in this world is silent).
You KNOW and see that the world Is alive and lived, even if the previously most glorious part of it is in ruins.
ER asks you what comes after stagnation and the old order fades, but it also asks you to think that the World isn't composed only of Kings, Lords and Gods, it tells you often that plenty of other people live in it, from when it asks you to have compassion for undeads to the idea that no matter how ruined, people still live everywhere.
Which is also why the Lord of Chaos is so wrong. You are just using violence again, and you use it on a world that has already lost the previous Order. Morgott is dead, the Erdtree is burning, both previous Elden Lords are dead and a good bunch of their children.
One thing is to pick your own order in this situation, one thing is to fucking kill everyone
Okay but our decision would feel more significant if they told us wtf was happening. You don't even get to know basic character motivation for any major event which makes deciding on the new world order mostly guess work.
@@shivernaut9884 Heheh, yeeeah I'll admit I'm kinda with you there.
@@flavertex658 and it's extra bad in elden ring because we have access to allies who could give us context if we asked but there is no button for it. This isn't an undead having to make sense of the leftover pieces of a dead world. We Should know more this time around but it's more ambiguous than ever.
There's nothing wrong with lore hunting but it's not rewarded nearly enough in elden ring imo.
@@shivernaut9884 i mean, we travel to some rather extreme regions in order to understand that the Order that had broken had been "corrupt" from the start, Radagon and Marika being the same being is "a secret hidden to the world" The whole land of Farum Azula and Maliketh would be nearly devoid of exposition same with the lands of the giants, heck even the haligtree.
We are piecing together a lore that 99% of the world wouldnt be exposed to, save for fellow Tarnished who travel the same path you to (Vylkas.....oh wait that dude went insane when he glimpsed into the truth......oh wait same with everyone in Volcano Manor, oh wait thats right Stormveil Castle and The Academy too....) Renna wouldve theoretically been our best source of knowledge outside of Ranni and Melena...but shes a blubbering mess since Radagon left her. Caelid is a land of battle junkies with their brains literally rotting (Radaahn) In fact most of our sane and semi-trustworthy sources.....are tied to the stars by glintstone, very few sane ones exist in the world that had in depth knowledge of the order
Hey man, thanks for the video. I would definitely suggest to add "Honored Madman" to the roundtable of lore channels. He's really excellent at connecting pieces of the lore together with a very casual approach which makes him different and enjoyable to watch too.
Yoo it's the guy, the dude
100% agree!
Glad you enjoyed and thanks for the note! Ill check him out and add em to the list
“Square table gaming” should be there as well, he make a really good Elden lore videos
I do think it's a little funny that people are already acting like we've exhausted all the potential information. We're still figuring things out about the older Fromsoft games.
The epistemology is pretty simple here. The art and the world building and the experience and all of it is wonderful, nobody would trade it, etc. But there are a lot of people who play these games who force certainty where it plainly doesn't belong in regards to how they model the cohesion in these works. If you know anything about the translations of these games you know how unbelievably off some of the meanings are. In a certain sense if you're playing in English you're already going to be missing pieces. (The Japanese is also delphic, but more directly so, if that makes any fucking sense at all.)
But more importantly, it's clear that narrative cohesion in these games necessarily takes a back seat to both deadlines for publishing and gameplay. Almost all of these titles have bosses switch rooms or get renamed or they re-use areas/assets or whatever else at the last minute because they think it's ultimately a better gameplay experience. They also know that doing this leads to more speculation, projection, and interpretation, which is ultimately better for the marketing, word of mouth, and content cultures the game creates downstream of itself.
I think you are completely spot on. It's weird that more people don't notice this.
That being said, there are MANY things most lore hunters have ignored completely, like the origins of Glintstone, the Uhl and Uld dynasties, all the various clues about what happened before the Erdtree.
@@CrowsofAcheron Thank you! You're very courteous to take time to engage. Cheers!
@@CrowsofAcheron KiteTales & Flex does a good video on the timeline of magical "schools" in the setting, and their evolution.
Personally I struggle with Elden Rings lore simple because the time feels extremely elastic, in that a lot happens seemingly very quickly, and then eons seems to pass with nothing of not happening. I don't think this is an oversight, but intentional play on the ever present stagnation theme. But trying to establish a simple order of events would go a really long way to having some kind baseline " this is as concrete as we can get".
I absoluetly agree with this. I think a lot of discussion around the dissatisfaction with ER lore leads people to want to go about interpreting it differently when in fact the issue is with the development of the world itself. The difference with DS is that it was incomplete but way smaller, way less busy, and way less alive. Thus, when pieces of the lore were not explained, it didn't matter that much because they had a much smaller influence on the story and world (who are the people of the Great Swamp? Versus What is the blood star? The Blood Star question is so much more dissatisfying because it seems to be some outer god who by definition would have a stake in the Erdtree struggle). As well, DS had a much deeper psychological/emotional resonance, with the discussion of humanity, eras, darkness, hollowing, meaning-- whereas in ER there is a surprising lack of psychologically resonant objects or forces especially in porportion to how much history and other shit there is in the world. In conclusion, DS and BB were designed by Miyazaki and the thematic and emotional resonance of each were much clearer. ER was written by Martin, a writer with much different methods from Miyazaki, who himself, I sense, had difficulty translating Martin's notes into his own style and medium.
Idk DLC always adds more questions instead of answering anything for the most part imo
My feeling, is the fact we are asking this question, leans towards one end of the spectrum. Elden ring is a cool world, that even as a major player in the world, I feel as though I am just a sight seer. A tourist walking from big attraction to big attraction. Without a tour guide telling me what the significance is, the context in which the things were made, or their meaning going forward.
That’s the best way I’ve heard it described and with what tarnished are it makes a lot of sense
That's actually a really good way of putting it.
@Mattress Store Saying in affect, "you are just not meant to know what is going on" is a massive cop out. And even if it were the case, that is massively boring, confusion is not very or interesting.
It's a post apocalyptic setting my dude, of course you're going to feel like a tourist, especially since your character was resurrected after being dead for God knows how long.
@@KNIGHTMAREMANIAC Plenty of people still in the world and or books that could explain it a bit more xD this isn't no radioactive world scenario. Also flashbacks, flash forwards are of course possible.
I’ve gotten to where I don’t even pay attention to lore and story in these games because even if I do pay attention I still have no idea what’s going on
I think the age of perfect order would be the "good ending" as it removes all corruption from the golden order and makes everyone equal in the eyes of the order.
I’ve always felt the same way. The gods/demi-gods and men have always had a selfish agenda for their choice of rule. The Perfect Order removes their ability to manipulate.
Furthermore, I can never understand how Ranni’s ending is somehow the “good” one considering every action she takes is entirely self serving and there’s nothing to show that the age of stars is good for anyone but her.
@@grave7948 people use her ending as the means to indulge into their "a hero saves the world from big evil" power fantasy. That's why it's "good", because how can such a noble goal be bad? This view existed since the time of Dark Souls lore discussion and some people cling to it to the point of getting delusional and are willing not only twist, but outright ignore huge chunks of the lore, that don't fit their narrative. At least Ranni simps are honest about it.
@@kindlingking Great points. I can understand where Ranni’s ending can be seen that way and in a way she does alleviate many of the previous problems with The Lands Between. But I suppose between her previous actions and not necessarily knowing whether the Age of Stars actually benefits anyone (besides her) I was always skeptical.
Of course same can be said with Age of Order. It seems like removing the ability of meddling with fate for personal gain by the gods is a wise choice but who knows what kind of aftermath would follow. Thanks for the reply and discussion 🤙
@@grave7948 Ranni's ending achieves the same goal as Goldmask's ending just through a different method. Ranni's is through revolution while Goldmask's is through reformation
@@Rusty_Spy Never thought of it that way but that’s a great viewpoint.
My interpretation is that you're more literally living in a mythology, and are forming the mythical cannon for a world to come.
I wonder if a discussion could be had about the vague language relationship between "The Lands Between", "Middle-Earth", and "Midgard", and how this relationship may inform some deeper aspects of this narrative.
Something that comes to mind as i listen to you and many other discuss how the story of ER is hard if not impossible to piece together, i think there is one thing that needs to be taken into account: who wrote the mythos.
G.R.R.M. as far as i aware, is well known for making his fans wait (just look at game of thrones). So while he did create the mythos, being on a time limit may have left much of it incomplete and disjointed. And while articles say that conversations bewtween GRRM and Miyazaki were 'free and creative...' they still might have been more restrictive timewise than GRRM is used to. And while Miyazaki may have used what GRRM created as a base a built from there, there still may have been holes and missing bits to fill in but couldnt be done within the development time frame.
'Course i could be wrong, but this is how i view it.
People who claim that Elden Ring is just as impenetrable as previous titles are the kinds of people who've never tried to sit down and critically engage with the themes and circumstances of those titles. Elden Ring is clearly different, since virtually everyone commenting on it, who've also analyzed it's predecessors, seem to agree that there's simply too much missing in order to make sense of it all. That it's the biggest title in terms of scope, but the most lacking in terms of richness and depth. Elden Ring prioritized quantity over quality, and it shows.
The game is perfectly fine. It's even quite good in places. Ranni's questline, and the areas it takes you through, are standout pieces that push the franchise ahead. The four different shades of open forest full of generic zombie-knights, animals and random resources to collect for no real reason, are classic pitfalls of the open-world genre. But there can be absolutely no doubt, when veteran players such as myself have spent hundred of hours int he game, only to reach the conclusion and still not understand what's happening or why they're doing what they're doing, or for whom, that we're trying to build 1000-piece jigsaw puzzle with the half the pieces missing. Normally, we're given, say 800-900 of those pieces, with the rest left up to our imagination. But with Elden Ring, we don't even have enough pieces to draw basic conclusions, or establish a stable timeline that doesn't somehow contradict itself. And that leaves you wondering whether that's because we're missing information OR whether or not the writing simply doesn't fit together.
Elden Ring may, however, become a victim of its success. It would be a shame to see From Software continue in this direction, if they can't figure out how to solve these obvious problems with the way their narrative structure suffers from a bloated game world.
I like Elden Ring, but I think I'd like it even more with the open world cut and the game following a linear series of levels akin to DS3, or even choosing levels from the Roundtable Hold a la Demon's Souls. I feel that could have helped concentrate the richness of the experience while also helping maintain the narrative drive and quest lines.
I tend to agree I don’t think the open world adds anything good to the game other than to fit the mold of current companies and what they do. Would have been better like you said as if round table hold was like the nexus and you went to each area from there. We spend more time dicking around on the horse (which has really bad combat and I hate it ) looking for where to go than playing / fighting and engaging in the story.
@@TheVioletBunny I agree.
What doesn't make sense to me is the crystalians. And I must not be alone because not even the loretubers have made videos on them yet
I think it's a bit too early to tell if the lore of Elden Ring is too obscure or not. For example 3 years ago Hawkshaw did "Ash Lake, Havel, and the Plot against the Gods", a video about DS1 a game that is now 11 years old and despite that he manage to extract this very obscure piece of lore from it.
Elden Ring is juste bigger than all the previous FS games, so maybe we just need more time to figure it out :D
Here's the thing: Elden Ring has an incredibly strong Christian influence, and I'd strongly argue an *Early Christian* influence in particular. One of the possible influences on early Christian thought in addition to Judaism was the idea of the Mystery Cult, and the enigmatic nature of a lot of the information and how it is revealed to the player throughout Elden Ring also seems to pay homage to that: each level of challenge completed reveals a further piece of the grand mystery of the divine. But importantly, the idea that the divine has to be intelligible to humans at all is an extremely modern notion. In many ancient religions, and important to this discussion *western* religions, there was a general acceptance that many things about the divine were simply beyond human comprehension. It wasn't a conundrum for early Christians to reconcile Jesus being fully God and fully Human, they didn't wonder how He could 'do that.' How can you know the will or ability of an omnipotent god?
Elden Ring drinks heavily from this cup, as well as other factors of early Abrahamic religions - chiefly the myriad references of the worship of, and being in conflict with, other Gods. There are elements of the divine that are simply unknown or perhaps even unknowable, and even characters and groups within the game have to contend with their actions potentially being the actings-out of the conflict between wills of totally unfathomable entities that they have put their faith in. It isn't so much that these things don't 'make sense,' they may make perfect sense in the grand strokes of myth and divine conflict, but they defy interpretation in the sense that, well, you either have to accept they happened and build the themes out of them, or get frustrated that it wasn't explained in detail to you. It perhaps leaves a few too many things in this realm that don't need to be there, which is a failure of the writing in my estimation, but it isn't *wrong* to take this path, it's just a different way to approach a setting than we're accustomed to in (most) FromSoft games. Bloodborne took a similar approach, but because we are so steeped in the Post-Lovecraftian world we understood readily while playing it that some things would be left completely foreign to us. But the overuse of rationalism, combined with the frankly apocalyptically cringe 'Protestant Reformation', have basically gutted this understanding of religion in the western world, to the point that we so often see people resort to hardline *misunderstanding* of the Ol' Bibble to assert that it either must all be fantasy or fact, and so Elden Ring probably doesn't seem to stick the landing quite as well.
Elden Ring mostly takes inspiration from Celtic history. Lore and landmarks from places like Wales and parts of Scotland and Ireland.
Ah yes, the long-standing tradition of a Christian boldly claiming any and all fantasy stories and worlds under Jesus again, why is it that the closest thing you can associate with Christianity is literally a fantasy?
Good take but tbf it was a condrum for early Christians to accept Christ to be fully Hod and fully man. This is why the Arian Hersey took place. Not trying to shit on your point point tho because I largely agree with it
You are so far off from actual history. Gnosticism and other heresies were clear schisms with the early Church. The idea of intelligibility has its roots in philosophy. God himself says “I Am that Am.” Ipsum esse subsistens. He is being itself. Greek philosophers then can be said to have come to understand God without ever having been Jews. They posited that there was a divine “Logos”, the Gospel of John was written with philosophers in mind. The word actually used for what we translate as “Word” was “Logos,” which basically means divine intelligibility by which all things can be understood. Even looking at the Early Church Fathers will get you a similar understanding.
Yes there is truth to the notion that God is mysterious, but the Early Christians also believed in Theosis. By achieving the beatific vision the person is united to God and enjoys knowing him more and more fully through his essence.
@BJ Cruz Arianism only became widely held after it was condemned. It was pretty clear cut to anyone who followed the magisterial authority of the successors of the Apostles that the ruling was permanent. Doctrine develops but is never abrogated or changed. Even now you have many trying to promulgate clear heresies, but the Church has held firm where all schismatic sects have adopted the various vices of the world such as contraception and divorce.
@@juice2307 chill bruh it’s a RUclips comment section
I am so deeply thankful for this video and of course Ratatoskr's. Both really gather up well what I've been feeling about the game since exploring the lore for a few weeks back in April/May. I think you both hit the nail on the head more or less - this story is somehow more ambiguous than previous games, and I think you articulated it so so well in this video. Absolutely top tier work.
Im glad the video resonated with you so well, and I appreciate the kind words!
tbh I wish we had an ending where you could plant a new Haligtree. Miquella seemed to care the most for the people of the Lands Between and his vision for the future would've righted a lot of the injustices imposed by the prior kingdoms.
I mean think about it. Ranni's an aristocratic isolationist who has no problem with plunging the people of the lands between into a world war and abandoning them when her plans come to fruition. We don't have any confidence that Goldmask's order is any better than the old one that subjugated the omen, misbegotten, and albinaurics. Fia's so grief-stricken that she'd rather curse the land with undeath than let it move on without Godwyn. The Dung Eater... is the Dung Eater, and the Frenzied Flame SUCKS.
The current endings are that of either destruction, stagnation, or stasis. There is no ending where you make something good and new for the next generation, and that's what the land truly needs.
The only person able and willing to do that was Miquella, and because the land was starving for the kindness he gave, they carved him up until there was nothing left but bone and skin. He's the fiercest Empyrean not by malice, but by an honest, selfless love that turns everyone else rabid.
I think you really dropped the ball on most endings and are seeing it from a very narrow point of view.
And some of your interpretation of fia's ending and ranni's is just wrong. It's the exact opposite of what you're saying in both cases.....
@@hassaan3861 You gonna say why?
@@Sleepy12ftPanda from my interpretation, fia’s ending makes it so that nothing is immortal, so that everything can just move on
I do think the lore is too vague, especially when the game is open world, I think a lot of the issues I had with Elden Ring and side quests is that they basically stick to the formula that works in a more linear game but with something like this, for most players, the story is going to be far too vague to even begin to make heads or tails of, which sucks since it kinda makes no sense to get G.R.R Martin and have so much potential that is just way too sparce and vague for anyone but the most die hard to get and even they can't really make solid theories because so much is that vague that almost nothing is concrete.
Finally someone with a similar thought as me. I think if they allowed grrm to make a more standard epic fantasy story it would fit better with this giant grand open world game. Like you said this sort of seek and find narrative only works for more linear titles like dark and demons souls.
@@TheVioletBunny I agree, doesn't really make sense to bring in a writer like that and then barely have an actual story in the game. It could have worked but when the game is so big and you aren't really forced into most content, when you get story pieces or side quests, they really needed to make them substantial because even the ER lore creators can't iron down basic plot elements because even with all the lore hunting they do, nothing is clear cut enough to build a real theory around. I've seen videos on Melina being the Gloam-eyed Queen, or Destined Death, or a completely unrelated character, or servant of a mushroom, and they all could be true or not, no one can really say for sure. That's an issue for me lol.
Even though Elden Ring has a lot more detail to the worldbuilding itself than past games, actual character motivations are more vague than they've ever been. It's a little frustrating to be honest. Like, I understood what Gwyns motivation was in Dark Souls but I can't really say the same for Marika since there's so little info about her and what her goal actually was.
I don’t feel that the lore is connect well with itself or the word. We get characters and factions but we don’t get where they are and how they interact with eachother the majority of the time. We have an idea of what the demi gods did after the war started but where did they live before, and what did they do? We get nothing except for maybe Rykard and Rahdan. Where was any of the factions based, any grand church, meeting hall, anything. Even for Marika all we get is a bed instead of a audience hall so I get no connection on how the government even functioned with itself and the factions that made it up. Most of the npcs also talk more about ’plot’ and their ‘quest’ than they do who they and their orders are.
There's so many questions about elden ring's lore that I think will go unanswered. Every time I look into a certain aspect of the lore I end up with more questions than I've got answers. I do think dlc will answer some of the bigger ones such as Miquella and Godwyn but I think most will be left up to interpretation. Which is fine for some things but when I get invested I'm a game and it's world I want to know everything or I'm left unsatisfied. I love Elden Ring because it's so large with so many characters and things going on , but that's also a fault since it'd be possible for everything to be explained. I watch all the lore youtubers and most of them do well explaining things and crafting their own theories but they all come to the same conclusion. More questions, no answers. I hope we get a decent dlc that expands upon the story and lore but even if it again leaves us asking yet more questions, I love this game and think it's an instant classic that will be talked about for years to come
Thanks ML, much appreciations on the vid - very well put together as always. I most definitely would agree that there are quite a few too many unanswered questions in the lore of ER, but I'm selfishly fine with that. Being my first Souls experience, I have never been quite exposed to this much in terms of story/ lore in a game, and I've quite enjoyed watching vids from Lore hunters such as yourself and others. As frustrating as it may seem to have so many unanswered questions, I can't help but feel that if all questions were answered then there'd be a finality to the quest or search for lore/ answers - I even enjoy speculations as it helps me see things from a different perspective. I know it will at some point come to an end, but I've enjoyed this journey so much, I guess I'm still at the honeymoon stage with this experience.
In some of my own lore hunting I've tried taking a different, less holistic approach to the lore. Each location I go to, I look at everything there and think "What is THIS story?"
It's a slow and meticulous approach, but it's started giving me some new insight. For instance, the Stormfoot Catacombs were recently invaded by nobles who sought erdtree burial but were denied.
I haven't gotten far yet but I think looking at each location as largely self contained and only gradually building to a larger whole might be a useful approach.
Agree to an extent, but I think that's largely just how zoom in/zoom out works when observing anything. Consider the difference between looking at a fingernail and a person. It's much easier to see a simple and compressed thing when you're only looking at it from a super zoomed in angle, but it does not follow that because this is more simple to model that it is an entire truth.
More importantly though, I like your idea of basically seeing each component area as a "self-contained myth" and the entire game then becomes simply a stack of these myths (like Aesop's Fables or something) with only loose and iffy cohesive relationships to one another that fit intuitively in places but need not be forced together writ large.
So I notice that you often refer to dark souls 3 throughout the video to highlight elden rings extreme ambiguity by comparison, but it should be stated that dark souls 3 is the third dark souls game. If you came into the lore hunting scene at that time you were coming as dark souls was being "wrapped up". Elden ring is the first of its kind (and certainly seems like it will get sequels) and I think should be compared more to dark souls 1 as a result. I can't help but imagine that there were a ton of question marks and mysteries that like elden ring that could only be speculated at when it didn't have any sequels to flesh out its story. We can clear up much of dark souls 1s ambiguous places because of dark souls 3. I guess I wouldn't consider dark souls 1 a stand alone story, and maybe elden ring isn't either.
Bloodborne and dark souls had many years for their themes to be dissected whereas elden ring is still very new. I fealt similarly as ratatoskyr when I 1st played Bloodborne (a game that would eventually go on to be my personal favorite) so many things connected to so many others and an exact timeline was (and to a smaller extent still is) tricky to pin down. I highly recommend smoughtown if you'd like long elden ring videos that you can listen to while doing things.
Let's not forget that for years people thought Solaire was the lost son of Gwyn.
@@aberrantart88 that's a little different because dark souls had sequels explaining that I'm talking about elden ring and bloodborne as individual games. The community looks at alot of stuff in bloodborne differently after so many years. Time is ultimately what helps alot of stuff in these games look differently
@@Jaden-Ring We're in agreement on your comments. I'm just using Solaire as an example that it takes time to discover the game's secrets. They may be right in front of you the whole time or they may be revealed through context provided by a future title. I'm confused by this trend of people insisting that ER is uninterpretable after a few months.
@@aberrantart88 Exactly. People were probably letting years of time w the other games inflate their lore interpreting egos. We never understood any of these games at launch on the level we would within each passing year.
Something that I keep wondering about, is a line from enia about seeing two great runes together. Also that at least one other tarnished had the option to burn the erdtree. Yet we get no great rune from vyke, only in killing demigods may we aquire a great rune. I think with the ring shattered the lands between are in the midst of a "dragon break" to borrow a term from eldar scrolls. Until order of some sort is restored events in the lands between will continue to be disjointed.
For some reason frenzy flame speaks to me as some primal dark urge to have it all end and I'm glad from put it in.
Personally I'm really looking forward to reading the official guide when it comes out next week. I'm hoping that will answer a lot of our questions!
Same here!🧐
THERES AN OFFICIAL GUIDE COMING? Fuckin neat. See, THIS would be a fucking SICK opportunity for G.R.R. Martin and Miyazaku to work together to write material that GLUES everything together while guiding one through the game the way(s) the canonically intended (especially it they were to write each ending as the conclusion to separate interwoven story thread).
Then sell this shit as an online version, a softcover, AND a hardcover. Like an Elden Ring novel almost... or, i guess, more like an Elden Ring Silmarillion book, as oppossed to something more concretely narrative based like Lord of the Rings.
Like, HOW COOL WOULD THAT BE? a guide book with a concurrent Lands Between historiography, much like Tolkein's Silmarillion?
It might start with the general history of the whole world, but focused on the Lands Between in the pre-Elden Ring/Crucible era, its gods, its locales, its inhabitants/"races" laid out and mapped out by Martin and Miyazaki. This (super interesting) introduction ought to then talk about how the ancient crucible cooled off and how the arrival of the outer gods, specifically the Greater Will, arrived and apparently charmed and flattered the dragons into following its... well, its will, and leading directly into the Second Age of the Lands Between, but the First Age under the Greater Will and under the Elden Ring and an Elden Lord (Placidusax).
And this would be a good literary opportunity, and i THINK the lore supports it, to then talk about the history and importance of Farum Azula... and probably also talk about more connected history of the land's between and the whole age, like why they look like the land is held up by cosmic pillars? And explain the Eternal Cities and who inhabits them (and who DID inhabit them) in this period when presumably the Eternal Cities were on the Surface, Farum Azula may or may not have been floating and/or trapped in time, who the giants were in the mountains (and or the eternal cities and/or in caelid)...
... and then explain more specifically the move away from the crucible, the giant/fell god's fire, and, super importantly... the Erdtree, the Great Tree, and the OuterGods. It seems like this game is very h.p.lovecraft and that the gods are less gods than they are interstellar and interdimensional space aliens. Was the Great Tree growing in the age of the crucible, or did it start under Elden Lord Placidusax? Was it severed as some of the Outer Gods crash landed on Earth (as did Astel), and so its cutting was associated with ending the Crucible and beginning the Age of the Erdtree? Had the Erdtree been grafted during the age of Placidisax? Or was it when Horah Loux rose?
In anycase, answering these like literary history gives people an idea about why and where they are facing these powers late game. And then, the authors should move into the guide and the story... flip from a pure historiography, to, as we enter the current era, a history that has named characters, prepares to introduce the player as a force of history, and begins to hint at several actual story/narrative threads that ultimately will lead the guide to the different endings.
They should start talking about the badlands, and give us some insight about how marika came from the eternal cities as a numen to become an empyrean, how and why horah loux fought his way over, where the fuck radagon comes from, why they all decided to fight the dragons and the giants to control the forge and elden ring... and what the outer will's stance on it was. How deep was the golden order here, and the cult of the erdtree. Was there any time of peace in between Marika and Loux and Radagon seizing the Elden Ring and the War of the Shattering? Who were the demigods when it was just Marika and Horah Loux? Renalla? Sending Loux away?
SO! WE'd get a bad-ass pseudo-history and a bunch of explanations and the whys of the shattering war, all leading up to "RISE NOW!". And then they could begin the guide, and treat it almost as part of a narrative itself, with 6 different threads of story each being the 6 different paths to the endings, and explaining them and tying them to history and the story!
A narrative historiography that becomes a history that becomes a story disguised as a guide whose story meanders down the several intended paths to the various endings! *Authored* and then *edited* by Miyazaki and Martin in a collaborative process!
@@michaelwerkov3438 the energy of this post screams "I live on reddit"
What do you mean "next week"? It comes out on the 31st October, no?
@@subject8776 my comment was accurate at the time I made it a month ago. The guide has since been delayed until 10/31.
Great video. I did a blind playthrough of the game and i had this issue in which I really wanted to know what each faction wanted in relation to how the world was and could be and found it difficult to tell what they wanted beyond their surface level goals and how their endings would affect the game. After I finished the game and looked up lore videos everything made sense. I think the story in elden ring is more straight forward than in dark souls but isn't presented as well and is not as deep.
I lean toward the idea that lore at present, and to some extent even themes, are uninterpretable. The lore we've been given in a number of instance is self-contradictory to a point of excess. Whereby the plot seems to bear more of the hallmarks of a product of some marketing strategy, rather than a thought provoking artistic work that allows me to thoroughly engage with.
I really enjoy your editing!
the main difference with DS and ER is melena, the gloam eyed queen, and the flame of frenzy..
unlike the other endings which actually feel like endings, the frenzied flame ending felt more like a cliffhanger.
I think the themes are laid out fairly straightforwardly. As for the lore aspect itself, I think it's reminiscent of what it would have been like to have "lived" in the time before Gwynn linked the fire to humanity and subsequently fed himself to the flames. Experiencing the fall of oolacile, new londo, the war against the demons and having everything else that was going on laid out in front of you. Elden Ring's writing does seem very much in contrast to Darksouls' in that sense. In Elden Ring we're tying up loose ends rather than ending established orders as we do in Darksouls. Methinks the Daemon's in the details here.
A lot of things will be revealed in the DLC's, but I partake in the frustration that left us, lore hunters, with so many questions...
Bigger is not always better. Elden Ring is so long, and its world so massive, that people are looking for a greater meaning (above the simple experience of perseverance and overcoming obstacles) to feel like they didn’t waste their time. If your game requires an investment of over a hundred hours to explore, it better be worth it. With its captivating trailers, thousands of item descriptions, and unique, hand crafted zones, Elden Ring almost promises meaning, so people accept that investment. But, to me, the game said nothing.
I think there are too many events and ages that I wish the game was set in, instead of this current state or that they actually took place in game
I've seen 3 different videos on this subject and have heard all the reasons for why Elden Ring is harder to interpret than other FromSoft games, and I still don't get it. Dark Souls seems just as cryptic, if not more, than Elden Ring. Bloodborne is especially hard for me to interpret seeing as I still don't know what paleblood even is. I dunno, the very basic events of Elden Ring seem pretty straightforward and none of these games ever give very concrete answers beyond that.
It's about seeming lack of a central theme. Dark souls is framed entirely around the allegory of a flame representing life/progress/civilization and how they all inevitably fade. The rest of the games lore and story is then framed and interpreted through that lens, and even though a lot of the lore is left unknown, we still understand what dark souls is trying say underneath it all.
What exactly is Elden Ring trying to say?
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: It does indeed make sense.
The lore? I don't know but I didn't have any problem understanding the story, what was going on or my part to play in it. It's also a story that's going to stick with me more than most video games stories. I was called to a homeland I never knew and given a task, to become Elden Lord. During my journey though I came to a different conclusion, on my own and without the game telling me, that this world is broken beyond repair, that I didn't want to fix it anymore, that I wanted to end it. And the game gave me that option, the frenzied flame ending. But thanks to the pleadings of Melina I was persuaded to not do this, that a hard life is better than no life and looked for another option that suited my motivations. Which again the game provided, the age of stars ending, an era of no gods interfering and one where those living in the lands between can make of their world what the choose to make it (I'm leaving too, to go roam the darkness beyond with Ranni at my side).
I didn't need to know Marika's motivations or the black knife assassins or anyone else's, it was my motivations that counted. What they or anyone else wanted to do was an epic failure anyway, the lands were in ruin, they had their chance to fix things and didn't. Every faction seemed to be once great armies or orders but now with no war to fight and no generals to lead them, so they roamed aimlessly and did whatever petty things they wanted. Some carrying out duties to leaders that no longer cared, some preying on anything that they came upon, some collapsed in a heap before a queens empty bedchamber.
I feel though for someone who is desperately looking for meaning in the game, ends up becoming incredibly disappointed.
And usually Dark Souls and Demon Souls does a very good job at intertwining player motivation and giving reason for it.
Elden ring does none of that. It doesn't even give you a reason to do any of the endings other than simping for someone else.
Yes we have Ranni who wants to change the status quo. But that's also everyone else who wants to become elden lord. What makes hers so special? I know there's an answer but the fact that she doesn't do a good job making her point unique is a problem.
Frenzy Flame wants to cleanse the land which we later know is about burning it all. But again no clear motivation to try to gain that ending. Because no context is given.
And I think thats the message of the game. Not something big like some would think to find, but a simple message: Become Elden Lord, save the world or destroy it. Regardless, its your own journey. The message I see is "Do as you wish. Make something of yourself, and live with those consequences." This isnt like some other tales that focus on the world. This is a tale about the player and what they see with the information that can be given to them.
The only thing concrete is that you cannot know everything. For even the All-Knowing failed in the end.
@@Cooli167 the problem is that this goes against everything previous Souls game have taught us. Lore matters. But in elden ring it really doesn't.
No one that moves the story cares what you do.
@@Cooli167
>Become lord, save the world or destroy
But there's no world without lore. Do you want to save or destroy the cardboard cutout at the background? Why should you care?
You don't just go and do a thing in souls games, there's always a second floor, always hidden truths that can change your perspective. Throwing a bunch of random pieces and expecting players to figure something out isn't a theme or message, it's just a hack writing.
@@kevinvu5432 Because this is not Dark Souls. It's different. Different motivations and different writing. The game play, yes, is an iteration, but the writing is different. Outside of the fact that much was cut, the writing matches the gameplay: you explore the world. And from the environment come up with what might have happened, but you focus on what your fighting instead of seeking the truth to the matters at hand.
And to say no one that moves the story cares is kinda... I disagree. Melina cares, especially when you move to destroy it. Gideon cares as an aloof rival would. The blacksmith in the round table cares
The world is destroyed. There is lore there, but it's much like the lore of our time. We know so much and so little at the same time. We cannot know all of the motivations and events, because the people who know that information have either died off, or are hostile to the Tarnished we are.
The parallels between ER and Ashes of Ariandel or very strong, from item descriptions of the different blossoms you can see there is a natural cycle that starts to rot and is burned for the next cycle. I'd like to note that the erleaf blossom is described as dusky. And during dusk the sun temporarily has a golden yellow gloam that can be seen even after the sun slight passes the horizon. So the gloam eyed queen could mean glowing gold eyed queen. But that still dsnt mean its marika for sure, it could still be someone related or even someone else
The Dark Souls game start in a world which is stagnated and the player chooses to keep it that way or invite change.
In Elden Ring Marika oversaw the stagnated world created by the Greater Will with her help and after some time decided to shatter the Elden Ring to give the world a chance to change and progress.
We as players now start in a world which is already changing and the Greater Will wants to use us to stop the progress and reestablish the Golden Order.
From a thematic sense i like that the overall story is more uncertain since change brings great uncertainty with it. But I would enjoy more tangible information when it comes to certain characters/groups and their story thus far.
Short answer: “no”
IMO, the lore being difficult or impossible to confirm just makes the world more real. It’s the same in our own world - not everything can be explained and I don’t think it should be either. GRRM does similar in the ASOIAF series - and he has said many of those things won’t be explained further (Asshai, Bloodstone Emperor, Great Empire of the Dawn). I think Elden Ring has taken huge inspiration from ASOIAF in this respect.
the craziest piece of lore i found was that the fire giant was a small forward for the portland trailblazers during the 92-93 nba season
like the roots of a tree, the threads of lore are twisted and often overlap, the quests areis beautifully written, and a lot more interconnected than the quests of prior fromsoft games
Ranni's ending is the best because it's the only one where I am no longer maiden less.
Its actually very simple, so surprisingly simple that its eluded the vast majority of players and lore enthusiasts alike.
I think many lore content creators are bumping up against the glass ceiling of item descriptions. These snippets of information form the bedrock of most lore hypotheses and theories and are seen as the most reliable kind of raw data. However, language is slippery. Words can conceal and misdirect as easily as they can inform and this is very true of the item descriptions. There are two alternative sources of information which are mostly neglected. The first is environmental storytelling. This has always been an important part of FromSoft's recipe but in Elden Ring, it's even more significant. The topology of the Lands Between is layered in such a way as to provide a wealth of historical information. Flora, fauna, item and enemy placements all have implications. Styles of architecture are important. The challenge this game presents in interpreting this data, compared to other FS titles, is due to its size and complexity. A second source of information, particularly thematic, can be found in the manner the game interacts with and utilizes elements of indo-european/middle eastern mythology. This game covers the evolution of western religious practice, from the Horned God to Radagon Christ and then injects some eastern philosophy into the mix. The very scale of that analysis presents a difficulty to someone looking for a single concept or idea that can warm an individual heart. Good art is always a little opaque and Elden Ring certainly delivers in that respect.
like to me it makes sense in the same way watching half a movie makes sense. it’s cohesive but missing a lot of context/exposition. but who knows what dlc is gonna come in the future
I think this lack of any coherent timeline or basic facts are the results of the shattering in action, without the elden ring the world seems chaotic and disjointed not even it's inhabits can make sense of what's going on and that's reflected in the lore, the DLCs always give us a different perspective on some theme or aspect from the main game so even if didn't end up answering all of our questions I think the new context could recontextualize our understanding of the game lore
That being said I think we still can interpret some themes and messages from the little facts we know and we should look no further than the demigods themselves because each one have a central theme that their fates and actions are shaped by, radahn is honor, malenia is loyalty, mohg and morgott are love or should I say the lack of it, rykard and godrick are greed and ranni is freedom, and I could go on with others like maliketh's guilt, marika's desire for change, radagon's blind faith which lead to him being crucified for a millennia etc...
The idea that themes cannot be extrapolated from Elden Ring because a lot of the lore is vague is mind blowing to me. It makes no sense. Honestly I think some people may be good at connecting threads in in-game lore notes, but not so great at reading between the lines and putting themselves in characters shoes.
We can deduce a lot of decent information about the Formless Mother based on how Mohgwyn Palace looks, and the symbolic relevance of blood and fire, or bloodflame in this case.
The amount of thematic material that can be deduced from putting oneself in Marika's shoes and considering Goldmask's quest, along with Radagon's story and its implications, is a goldmine in and of itself.
It seems to me that Elden Ring endings are more about how we think the world should move forward, rather than if it should move forward (excluding the Frenzied Flame heat death ending).
In your opinion what do u think goldmask ending is about?
@@retromikexd1198 essentially putting a shield around the Elden Ring so that the Greater Will can't exert its full influence on the world anymore. The less the Outer God's and Vassal Gods interfere and harvest human lives to wage war and serve their own means, the closer the world can come to a semblance of "true order"
@@retromikexd1198 The Lore is hard to understand for people who never played those parts of the game then post comments saying those parts they never played don't make sense. Also IQ tests should be a requirement for a youtube channel and have it posted next to people's names so everyone knows who to block and ignore.
@@johnsmith-xw7hv so explain, mr knowitall.
There's a question I'll ask that makes it better for everyone to understand.
Does European and British royalty makes sense if we're all God's children apparently?
This is a question FromSoftware asks in every title. Are we the chosen and divine? Or do we have to use belief and willpower to make dreams a reality?
Astel is called the bastard of the void and wears a nox skull on its head how much more evidence do you need lol
No cap this game has so much potential of lore that it's crazy. And this is seven months into the game. The lore is un this game is dense.
Don't forget that some characters and events were written by G.R.R. Martin
that's why some parts of the story are missing - they are unfinished
Honestly, as someone whose main marketable skills are close reading, narrative analysis, & interpretation, the fact that y'all got C's in English class is frustrating, but does give me some sense of job security.
I know Rataskor is doing Monster Hunter stuff at the moment but I definitely dig you & him just shooting the shit about Elden Ring on a podcast.
It makes as much sense as any historian can make of anything when looking back at texts and scrolls written in such an old mannerism and vocabulary that we wouldn’t be able to fully understand in a modern time…
My take is “Fuck themes, pick what you believe”.
Waiting for DLC (if it happen) for more gameplay and lore because right now people are just beating around the bush, still clinging on the initial Elden Ring euphoria.
Honestly, the only thing that truly bugs me about Elden Ring's lore, or general gameplay, is that no creatures in the game (outside of most passive herbivores) nor humanoids (except for the extremely weak "nobles" who still attack you on sight) seem to have any sense of self-preservation when they come across you, no matter how dangerous you look, how many of them you kill, or how hurt they are from you. They simply just keep attacking you, full on no quarter until either they die or you die. I think it would at least add something if more enemies were afraid of you based on your level or equipment, or even tried to surrender when you hurt them enough. Or maybe make it so every wild animal doesn't throw its life away just to kill you, the random guy, while ignoring every other humanoid that walks by them.
What I saw from other lore channels I am pretty sure that the lore is not as ludicrous hidden as people think it is, It's just scattered across so many places. Its not just all in one place, like an npc dialog or item descriptions; it's across soo many items. To find all the story details you not only need to read everything to find the through lines but also pay attention to equipment design, Architecture, Geography, and especially item and enemy placement, and even The unique boss soundtrack.
For example, did you know Nox are using Mimics as spies, as there are several nobles scattered around that will transform into Runebears if aggro.
also don't get the community started about how Japanese to English translation created diluted answers
I think FromSoft, after the Souls Community finding so much lore in-game, They felt conferrable giving the average player fewer hints. At the moment Elden ring has about 700 more puzzle pieces than the typical 100 puzzle FromSoft is used to. More so then previous games, community is needed to find everything. Vaati admitted to making a flow chart when fitting the desperate pieces together, I recommend other dedicated lorest try that too.
I think the issue is that Elden Ring became much more popular than other Souls games. And these newcomers are used to the more traditional storytelling and expect the game kind of explain what's happening on its own. If we look at RPGs these people came from, like TES or Witcher, yes you can read various books and notes in those, but you don't really have to do that to understand the story.
I prefer the lore being very vague for the sole (and kinda stupid i know) reason that it lets more space for my head canon :)
It’s interesting how many people believe that the fire keeper ending of DS3 is the most thematically resonant ending. I always interpreted it as simply walking away, as in DS2, and that the flames flickering in the distance were symbolic of the cyclical Age of Fire beginning again in the future. Conversely, by usurping the fire to begin the Age of Dark, the player effectively creates a new age with the possibility of growth that is free from the stagnation of the Age of Fire.
It went even farther to me, I interpreted the Link the Fire ending as basically doing nothing, but also not quite burning. I don't see any Dark Souls 3 ending as the canonical one, to me the DLCs are a continuation of the Link the Fire ending where your character essentially feels "Welp, I have accomplished literally nothing, time to explore other options", and the only ending of Dark Souls 3 in my book is giving the pigment to the painter and joining her new world.
@@TheRealTetro I see where you’re coming from as an order within a new painted world would be entirely free of all of the stagnant elements of the “real world” within the DS universe.
Thank you for another of your great videos! Love this game and channels like yours only help us better understand the masterpiece it s. Having said that, actual History is a jigsaw of pieces of information from different people, each with limited knowledge of what is going on in the world around them, and biased with their own agendas. On top of that, there is so much re-writing and reinterpretation of historical “facts” to fit current society values (eg Julius Caesar goes from hero to villain). Maybe in Elden Ring, an ancient world, with some many factions fighting for power, each spreading their own propaganda, of which the golden order is just the last among many, it is normal that there is so much confusion and conflict. Our role, as Tarnished, is not to blindly follow the Greater Will and mend the Elden Ring, but to work as a detective/archeologist to learn of the different “truths” about the gods, and eventually realize that there is no absolute truth nor right choice. At this moment, we make the choice of how to end the game. If Form Software had given us an absolute guide to the world of Elden ring, including its true history, I believe it would undo the immersive experience that is essential part of what makes this game so fun.
Thank you again!
I think a missed point is that the lore is broken. It's glitched. It's why Goldmask's ending exists - there are contradictions and exceptions in reality that shouldn't exist. Marika cannot be Radagon. The golden order can't be perfect while imperfections such as those who vibe in death exist. The Greater Will cannot have both abandoned the world while still guiding it. A tarnished cannot be elden lord. A turtle cannot be a dog.
The biggest liar in the whole game is Miriel. Heresy isn't just native to the world, it defines the world.
The lore has to be determined from the perspective that there are no mutual exclusions, and that all facts are indeterminate except momentarily.
"Actually the lore being incoherent, terrible and confusing is a good thing cuz I made stuff up about the world being glitched"
Offer is still open, if you ever wanna talk lore stuff
Imo Age of stars is the best ending. It's mistranslated so it might sound confusing. The Elden lord ending is just continuing the cycle and still being under the control of the greater will, I think Morgott said something like "it doesn't matter who becomes Elden lord they are all meant to fail" or something. And Lord of chaos is of course the worst ending.
Also in steam achievements it shows that most people actually went for the Age of stars ending.
Like your content.
Also I would like to put this out there. Darkeater Midir in ds3 was harder than the elden beast. I expected a harder final boss.
The answer is yes to both. I think the same frustration with actual history, especially pre 1800s applies to elden ring, but that allows more room for theorycrafting which involves all sorts of gambles that we have to wait out to get any sort of sense of veracity. I think that with the scale they went with, the metanarrative elements that fromsoft is known had to be expanded even further, or it would lose its essential character.
I assume the DLC’s will give more info
in all fairness: none dis sheit make no gotdamn sense anyway
I think it comes to the individual. I feel that there are quite a few themes that are able to be brought to light. Yet, if a person isn't looking or doesn't think to look they simply won't find them. Ratatoskr wants more concrete information to draw his conclusions. But we, as player characters, are literally coming back to life after an indeterminate amount of time when we weren't even in the lands between. So the events, the peoples, the locations. It is all coming to us as we go. We start off as the extras in the other named Tarnished stories from the beginning trailer. We don't get an ending of our own. We are all manipulated by others to impose their views on the world at the end. And so we are more akin to an amnesiac who is simply doing what we feel is right by our own moral scope and so what we learn, fragmented and convoluted as it may be, is the best we can get to move ourselves forward. So the meaning, the themes are what we make of it.
angelofthepast has a groundbreaking theory on his channel that explains huge hitting questions. I really hope you watch it and talk about it unlike other youtubers who don't want to acknowledge it from my experience
You know I never felt that we do have any agency or big decisions to make at the end, because all the decisions (how the world will be) is made by other characters who made the runes, you just pick which character you side with. And in my case and in role play I don’t think any ending is one that my character would want to be lord over- thus it’s not my choice. In Dark Souls it’s ultimately a linear situation about fire and not re writing existence in a myriad of ways.
Need more lore about the game. There is so much to this game
Elden ring in my opinion, is meant to be this blob of clues, item descriptions and other meaningless things that secretely interconnect in ways that are much deeper than what we a used to, aswell that the evoirmmental storytelling is clear enough to spark theories but vague enough to be emvoirmental storytelling.
What I mean is, elden ring is meant to be theorized upon, the layers and layers of seemingly fruitless lore is there to be weaved together into your own lands between.
I think ER gives more specifics and details to it's world and lore than any other FS game in the past. But i also think it leaves more amount of details vague and open than any other FS game. Its frustrating.
Nah but that’s a good thing, it’s fun to come up with theories
I think they intentionally left most of these things unclear for the sake of further exploration in future games and dlc
Also the Age of Stars and some of Ranni’s dialogue is translated in a way that leaves much to be desired
Thematically appropriate ending is not finishing? Because Merika wants the tarnished to be silly little guys running in circles forever?
No, not really.
I consider the Elden Ring lore to be unfinished. Its like someone started to write a book by writing down all these unconnected ideas in a note book over the course of a year. But then instead of taking all these ideas and turning them into a proper story book the writer just gave it to their publisher and told them to publish it.
Some have told me that this is just From Software being intentionally vague, aloof, and confusing in an attempt to encourage discussion of the game amongst the playerbase. However to me that just sounds like a cop-out for being terrible at writing complete stories. So therefor I think the lore cannot be fully interpreted by anyone nor can any of us agree on what the correct lore is simply because From Software never got around to finishing it.
I think we should acknowledge something about the lore. That there is a very specific narrative being pushed. The supremacy and legitimacy of Marika and the Elden Ring. Something we can see is just not true from our own journey through the Lands Between. So we can draw a conclusion from all this. That the lore is just propaganda favoring the Erdtree and Marika. That at no point are you presented unvarnished truth. All you can do is speculate on what the truth actually is based upon the situation you find as you wander the world.
I'm betting that several dlcs are coming and the true ending is yet to be seen/known because while the 2 fingers represent extreme order, the 3 fingers represent total chaos. There's no balancing the of both. This ending could act as the antithesis to the age of the stars ending, giving us two different endings with both of them being right. That's just my take after having watched God knows how many lore videos of elden ring
I agree, that it is hard to really ubterstand the themes because we barely know anything about the shattering an the shardbarers in general. But my interpretation would be that everyone is told or is striving to make the world a better place. But what would this even mean? We all try to understand the ways how the world should be, but as we continue our journey through life, we see that no idea of society works how it is intended and the motivations of the representatives are never clear. And even if we become the next person to rule, there is always a greater will beyond we have no controll over, even if we choose wich one will be controlling us
Hey Luigi, I am going to be releasing an essay soon detailing my interpretation of the themes of ranni's ending and I have been shopping it around to all the lore kids. I'll be releasing it on Twitter and spamming the heck out of the lore homies but if you're interested to see it before then ping me! I've got 60 pages of material so far
Yeah, but it's convoluted and the copy and paste enemies, weapons, locations and so on should be the real focus.
I mean you say that, but things being fragmented, appearing in several forms or variation, does play along with the themes of duality in Elden Ring. Of making different choices but those choices essentially manifesting as their own thing.
my problem with Ratatoskr’s video is that he seems to think that multiple things connecting thematically means that all those things have to be linked literally, when that’s just not how stories with overarching themes work.
No.
God of war vs elden ring. The former has jerks for gods, the latter has concepts as gods.
Concepts can be jerks too apparently.
Also I will say this when it comes to dark souls ones ending, it really doesn’t matter what ending you choose. Since in the end the fire will once again be kindled either by your hands or someone else. Because in the end you’re just another hollow that’s being manipulated by foreign powers, so they can bring age that benefits them then yourself.🐱
Imo the fact that someone like Smoughtown keeps cranking out amazing lore videos definitely makes me believe that the lore is not uninterpretable.
Personally i prefer it this way, As the slow drip of lore discoveries and connections that i get through the community keeps me interested and engaged in the game long after im done with a playthrough...
I have seen a lot of theories go around that are good but none that feel like they truly account for everything. Part of me wonders if Elden Ring 2 was always planned and we will get more. Right now I am thinking we have gotten some assumptions wrong. I feel like the ErdTree was once a normal big tree and then the yellow glow was added, i do think that glow is a space god fungus, perhaps moss and my guess is when Godywns soul died it wasn't obliterated thats what this is, and that the greater will may be a concept that binds all these outer gods into one order. All of these outer gods seem to embody natural processes of life and the elden ring forms it all into a cycle.
I also think we have settled on a fundamental misunderstanding, "Radagon is Marika" does not mean they are two people in one body. We could already suspect something like that simply from the boss. The thing that this secret note may be telling us is that there is no difference in mind just form. The item Marikas mischief also has massive implications nobody ever talks about, and the Amber Egg is absolutely pivotal to the story and i never see any references in theories.
Finally i think this is connected to some sort of shared reality, or fabric of existence, as dark souls and likely sekiro at least. Miyazaki is surely prone to symbolism but there are too many exact references that to call it symbolism seems like the wrong assumption. The same verbiage and ideas may be connected, the final boss arena looks like ash lake for a reason.
I think we all forgot lies exist, and some NPCs lie, Melina is a lying bitch imo, when she is speaking as Marika i think she is full of crap.
I also wanted to add about the laws of Causality and regression, I think Radagon is the Greater will using the ability to control reality through manipulating them, why the greater will and maybe golden order are the most powerful beings. I think it is weird Marika and Godwyn have 6 letters but Radagon has 7, and you can pull out letter from both prior names leaving you with "mikwy" I think the greater will was invading this reality and rewriting it into Radagons somehow but that is out there I know.
People don’t understand the ending more in el, we just all kinda agree Rani’s ending feels like the “good” one, about freedom and discovery and stuff instead of being tricked into being a pawn for an outer god, but i definitely think it’s more complicated than that.
For me, too much mystery, is the same an non engagement. There is not a lot for me to hook on to, and I am not willing to go through the same effort a lore youtuber would go through, to understand. Sure, suffering for art makes sense, but I'm not going to suffer more than I think I will be rewarded.
This reminds of an argument some people make about ANY lore theory being "correct" because there's no concrete lore. But if there's nothing to dig out beside disjointed pieces that were never meant to go together, why bother? If there never were actual story to uncover, why should I, the player, not only fix it's glaring contradictions, but also outright create the cohesive lore from parts, randomly (because otherwise threre would be at least some kind of vision) thrown in by Martin and Miyazaki?
@@kindlingking Cooperation between player and author I do think is a grand thing. But the majority of the work should go towards the expert (author) and not the player.
@Mattress Store If you don't think playing elden ring is a form of suffering, I don't know what to tell you bud. I love how you imply, all I have done is watch youtube videos. Which completely negates any effort I put into playing the game and exploring the world. A massively wrong assumption on your part. I've finished the game 8 times.
I disagree - Elden Ring's theme clearly revolves around Death and Rebirth, with almost every aspect of the game coming back to it at some point. It also has the secondary theme of fate - these two themes coalesce in one of the most pivotal aspects of Elden Ring - Destined Death.
The Age of Fracture ending is the denial of Death, the Flame of Frenzy ending is the denial of Rebirth, Fia's ending is the embracing of Death, the Dung Eater's ending is the embracing of Rebirth. Each with their own flaws or 'ugly truths' that must be accepted with them.
The other endings concern fate - Goldmask's ending is a dissolution of fate (the influence of Gods being removed), whereas Ranni's is a bit more complicated; she rejects the fate given to her by the Greater Will, and embarks upon a 1000 year journey of "fear, doubt and loneliness" - the uncertainty of having no fate. However she also says that this is done under the "wisdom of the moon" - the moons in Elden Ring are the guides of the stars which in turn describe the fates of individuals. Ranni's moon specifically is the "dark moon" which nullifies sorceries. I believe this ending rather than a direct embracement of fate is more about choosing a fate and trusting in it despite not being able to know said fate.
I could go a lot deeper into this, but I'm going to save it for a post on r/EldenRingLoreTalk.
Thought I already subscribed. Criminal that I was that negligent.