If this battery would really be sold for 40 USD per kWh that would be a gamechanger indeed. That should make a complete pack with 55 kWh (50 usable) for only 3000 USD possible. The weight of such a pack would be around 350 kg, assuming about 160 Wh/kg on the pack level, instead of 200 Wh/kg on the cell level. A 22 kWh pack for a small city car would only cost around 1500 USD and weigh about 150 kg. A solar battery with 2 kWh would only cost about 100 USD and weigh about 14 kg, a home battery with 10 kWh would only cost about 1000 USD, including the BMS, housing etc. and weigh about 70 kg.
@@MrVolodus heck, even without solar, charge your battery once a month for small homes! I rarely get above 5kwh usage a day. 100kwh battery on my home would be amazing!
Electric viking is wrong,200 wh/kg in cell not pack,shenxing plus has 205 in pack and blade 2 has 190 wh/kg in pack not cell,shenxing plus has 260 wh/kg cells,blade 2 has 247 wh/kg in cell,CATL's sodium ion battery has 200 wh/kg cell and 152 wh/kg in pack level,please be more accurate sam
Just for reference: May 5 2024 The CATL Shenxing Plus LFP battery energy density is 205 Wh/kg (Also has great cold weather performance) The Tesla 4680 is estimated at 272-296 Wh/kg This new CATL Sodium Ion hybrid Battery is 200 Wh/Kg (The advange will be 30% cost saving and 90% cold weather performance)
@@xraylife What will drive the adoption of the EV is that the *cost of operation* of the electric car / truck / bus / boat / equipment is lower than running on Diesel or Gasoline. EVs are cheaper to operate today, which is why fleet managers are buying EVs. Better batteries will accelerate this adoption.
Thanks, Loved the video on the sodium hybrid battery ! I hope you are right about this new battery ,. I do remember in one of Toney Seba's talks where he said that from concept to retail use for a new battery is 9 years . Also every year Lithium batteries have on average fallen by 16% in price and there energy density has increased by 4% on average. So whatever you invent today , has to be alot better than where Lithium will be in 9 years . All that being said , you would think that Lithium batteries must be getting near to the end of there continuous price falling average of 16% .
Half the US can get that cold but not for any extended amount of time. I live in Missouri and the last 3 winters we hit -10°F / -25°C below. I know Kansas regularly hits that temp. I think Kentucky and Tennessee saw close to those temperatures also.
Living on the westcoast of British Columbia, -20C doesn't happen but I get your point. As 90% of Canadians live within 100 miles of the USA border, it will make sense buying an EV with this battery as there are few days in a year that there is sustained -20C... This tech will only get better and you will see automakers find a workaround for extremely cold days...
The way to think about it is to consider the amount of energy bleed required for the car to keep the batteries at a usable temperature while just parked there doing nothing. Cells capable of charging at -20C in -40C weather only need half the bleed energy that cells capable of charging at 0C in -40C weather would need. In -30C weather it would only need 1/4th the energy. You get the idea. Anyone living in Canada with an EV over winter already knows that the EV pretty much needs to be near-full, or left plugged-in if it is going to be parked outside overnight in weather that cold. So this is mainly a matter of how much energy the car wastes keeping the vehicle operational after the battery has become full. Of course, ICE engines and components don't really fare very well in ultra-cold weather either. You really have to take care of *any* car in weather that cold if you don't want it to have an early retirement. -Matt
Watt is a unit of power. Watt-hour is a unit of energy. Battery energy storage capacity is measured in watt-hours. Battery energy density is measured in watt-hours per kilogram.
Sam, I can't describe how much I enjoy your videos. You bring us news from the state-of-the-art of technology and explain in clear language and clear-headedness what it ‘signifies.’ That’s precious!
This is the trouble with RUclips people don’t need any credentials in order to make comment about things They don’t understand the units aren’t just important, but it demonstrates that this guy does not actually have enough physics knowledge to be competently discussing battery technology. the other thing which is Missed completely as he commented “this is the end of coal”! Hang on a second the battery doesn’t generate power, you still need to charge the battery whatever type it is, and this is one of the problems in many countries insufficient, renewable energy
No, not yet. Getting closer though. CATL and BYD are pulling-up the baseline capabilities of several chemistries. The most interesting right now is CATL's Shenxing 2 (or Shenxing Plus, depending). That one is a LFP battery with (a) very good cold-weather charging, (b) 4C charging, (c) LFP (safety), and (d) around 205 Wh/kg... competitive with NMC. That covers all the bases except the ultimate ICE killer which will be an energy density closer to 300 Wh/kg... we want THAT in LFP but we don't have it yet. Once we get that, it is game over. The current sodium battery announcements, particularly the hybrid, are NOT a game-over technology. -Matt
@@rwyo83 You'll never get 4C charging without cooling, with any battery chemistry except maybe lithium-titanate (which isn't suitable for most applications). But cooling really isn't that big a deal. Just being able to do 4C for any appreciable amount of time at all means the internal resistance of the cells is already gonna be pretty low. I doubt they are hiding the cycle count, being LFP batteries one can assume it's gonna be at least 3000 cycles @ 80% DOD to 80% capacity. That is pretty much a given for this chemistry.
people try to tell him every time but he has a brain like kelly bundy. no chance to learn this. it is like not knowing the difference between speed and distance.
Hmm. Sam isn’t as hot on the electrical physics / electrochemistry as he is at making videos based on the marketing material from the world of automotive electrics. He’s pretty good at using cool looking graphic that suggest amazing tech without giving any real numbers away. He’s always saying something is umpteen percent better. Better than what? Percentage is a comparison. He never (or hardly ever) gives the comparison, except ICE. 😂
You can now start to see a sort of Moore's Law affecting EV prices. ICE technology has got marginally more efficient over the last 40 years (small capacity, 3 cylinders, high-revving turbos ..etc) but at the expense of more complexity. It's really gone as far as it can go. My Dad's 1978 2.0L Ford Cortina is really not that different to my last ICE car, a 2016 2.0L Ford Sierra. Battery technology is evolving so rapidly, especially if Solid-state goes into full production, that we could be looking at overtaking ICE in every aspect in 10 years (range, charging speeds, weight ... everything). 13 years ago the Mk1 Nissan LEAF did about 120km maximum. Now we're approaching the point where 400km is becoming standard. I can genuinely see 500km being ubiquitous in 10 years, with 1000km on high-end vehicles. It's great to be part of this revolution and witness the rapid evolution.
That is the one bright spot in the daunting logistics of transitioning toward electric cars: the slow pace of actually making the change (the public has little idea of the incredible costs and logistical hurdles involved) allows for innovation even as we move forward. Once the public understands that few of us will live long enough to see the change complete it will learn to be happy improving the pieces step by step rather than having a completely raw product suddenly trying to be the final product.
I realise many people on here don't know that China is a vast country, in the NE Heilongjiang province is close to the coldest town on the planet c-30/50 to the Far east in Xinjiang,, Taklaman desert temperatures can be over 40. Surprisingly they test the vehicles to operate in Both regions.
Just drove my 02 CRV to breakfast in Bangkok that you can see the fuel gauge dropping as you drive. My wife and I discussing how new battery technology is changing daily. Hope I live long enough to find the right EV for us.
@@Ria-hx8nlBatteries have been good enough for more then 5 years already. Don't let the oil propaganda get to you. If we can use these cars in Norway and Iceland easily everybody can.
@@Ria-hx8nl Battery technology has been practical for years! Yes, you can come up with exceptional circumstances where EV is a challenging option but to suggest it's not practical for most people is simply incorrect.
90% charge at -20C. Essential even in New York. When I was working there in the early 1080s we had -1F/-18C and barely any higher for a few weeks, so that when the temp rose to 32F/0C I was walking around without a coat and not feeling cold.
While I wouldn’t say never but the foreseeable future (this century) oil will be around. Jet fuel for planes (or future starships) to missiles. Massive cargo ships. A new type of propulsion system would be created powered by say fusion reactors.
Sodium ion batteries are probably going to be most useful for fixed installations where density isn't such a big deal. The density could be an issue for cars but it ultimately depends on what density they get vs LFP. I expect the cost savings will mean that a lot of cars will be using sodium ion batteries though.
Keep in mind that Tony S. gave his predictions in 2010 or 2014 dollars which are now almost worth $2 each. So in reality he was very conservative in his estimates on the speed of battery prices dropping. Hopefully the same will go for Solar power systems. So now, with energy and transport nearly handled, all we need are good governments and good food!
The end of coal the end of nuclear electricity comes from coal comes from nuclear comes from natural gas only a tiny fraction of electricity can be produced by solar during the day
@@gordonwardhaugh8266I think Sam's a little off base, but I believe what he is always talking about is with batteries being that cheap and on an accelerated reduction in cost, it makes the kilowatt hours per dollar cheaper when solar is the fuel source and it's stored in batteries
I’m in western Canada. -20C is not rare, but it didn’t happen much this past winter. The winter of 78/79 set a record of three months below -20C. Since we have very little charging infrastructure, my goal is AWD and 370 miles of range. Not buying until that target is hit (and it’s affordable).
I think he means that with a wonder storage system energy creation may go renewables 100%. I think that we’ll need nuclear for a long time, for some sort of baseline that does not depend on anything variable and uncertain.
Not really. While Toyota is attempting to perfect hydrogen powered engines to more easily commoditize such complex patents and IP, that isn't possible with battery tech due to the cost curve. Legacy carmakers don't know how to put this genie back in the bottle.
I can see this enabling them to still make a buck on lower end EVs. There's a huge completely unfulfilled market down there that EV manufacturers currently can't or won't compete in.
Legacy car makers might be motivated to protect their ICE revenues that way. However, EV-only manufacturers are highly motivated to win market share, so they will probably pass on most of the cost saving.
All you need is a cheap, fast charging, battery with 400 miles of range which is what gasoline cars do. I can't sit in a car for more than 4 hours! That's around 240 miles of highway driving.
I cringe every time you keep expressing energy density in in "Watts per Kg". It's Watt Hours per Kg (or per unit volume). Watts is a measure of instantaneous power. Why do we care? Because the other important metric is power density which is Watts per unit volume and it's about how fast you can get get power out of the battery, rather than how much it stores (matters a lot for fast cars and airplane). But you know all this already, so please stop using incorrect units.
@@darylcliffordsure it’s correct. watt is joule (energy) / second (time) and energy/time is power. but kilojoule is not as intuitive as watt hour so that is used usually for energy.
Thermal Runaway Potential ? Have you ever seen NA+ ( Sodium) Burn ? That is why NA+ is shipped in Mineral Oil to keep the NA+ from combusting when exposed to air with humidity. Storage Requirements:....."Sodium must be stored in a closed container under kerosene, toluene, or mineral oil. Contact with water should be avoided because sodium reacts violently with water to form hydrogen (H2) with evolution of sufficient heat to cause ignition...."
Sounds great. But I’ve been hearing this for a long time. Lots of hype extremely slow delivery and cheaper better batteries. And cheaper better electric cars. I’ll believe it when I see it in the showroom.
Your point is reasonable. But I think the problem is us. We expect these gamechangers (haha) to hit the market very quickly but I guess manufacturing doesn't work to our wishlist time scales. But if we look back several years, the advances become more apparent. 5 years ago, I don't think LFP was even on the market. Then it came in at about 160 kwh/kg. Now its up to approx 200 kwh/kg and the prices keep dropping. So I think we're getting there, just not as fast as our 'modern life' brains would like.
The first 250mile+ EV, 16 years ago, cost $150k for a basic two seater. In 2012 the price dropped to $80k, to $45k in 2016. Now it's $25k or so and still falling fast, driven by exactly these kinds of advances in battery capability and cost. What part am I missing?
It's because western car makers drag their feet. For a long time it was very deliberate, now they are just years behind and have sluggish processes. These news come out of China and are in cheap chinese cars in China. Till this technology gets here, without massive tariffs on it, it will take a few more years.
Legacy auto maybe has two years to become competitive before the Chinese are flooding the markets with EVs. Else it's game over for them. And yes, EVs have become far cheaper in the last decade. But as with every technology, it becomes ever more challenging to squeeze out more efficiency. The reason why ICE development is practically zero. But for EVs, which are already having a lower TCO than ICE it's still in the early stages of development. It's just a matter of time when ICE is finally done. Technically it's already done. It's just that production capacity for EVs still has to ramp up and that purchase price for an EV is far too dominant in the people's minds.
No, it's CHARGE CHARGE CHARGE. There's millions of apartment dwellers out there, and unless they can get their car charged at a place that is just as common as a Gas station in 10 minutes or under, their gonna stick to their gas powered cars, regardless of range and the price of EV's may match but will NEVER be below gas cars, and most places, and battery tech, are years away from that scenario, not to mention underdeveloped Countries. That's what the surveys show, convenience is King
@@PETERJOHN101 Issue is, even cheapest 13k gasoline car (Dacia Sandero, 12600€) can go 750km. EVs that come somewhat close, are 50k€+. I love EVs, but really, range is not their strong side.
Range will be around 200-300 miles. Once we can make battery packs based in new chemistry that can go further than that, we will make them smaller and keep range at 200-300miles… Elon pointed out over ten years ago he could make a car with 500mile range by fitting it with two of his standard Tesla battery packs. But carrying all that extra weight around ever day when the range was only needed rarely was daft. Better to keep range to 200-300miles and concentrate on charging faster for the rare occasion you need to travel further.
It's convincing enough to admit that it's the future of power generation and storage for almost everything and nothing else is even close to it's advancement in development
The charge condition slope is not as flat as LiFePO4, or lead acid. Resembles a supercapacitor charge/discharge graph, while the total capacity may be larger, the usable capacity is limited by the power accessible by the inverter. Voltage too high on the 100% charge end, and too low to power the inverter on the low end, well before 0% charge. So a 30% increase in total battery capacity is only about the same usable capacity as the LiFePO4 chemistry.
ICE vehicles will be around for quite a time yet. It doesn't matter how effective the energy storage is, the infrastructure still cannot deal with everybody plugging their cars into charge at 6:00 every evening.
Wrong. *IF* these prices are correct (they're not), then trickle charging a battery at a charger location solves the problem of "everyone charging at once". In fact, it's game over, overnight, for everything to do with fossil fuels. Think about it, under $5000 for some solar panels and a battery and you never need buy energy for your home again. $50,000 and most businesses become self sufficient in energy. The economic shock to global economics would be massive - it's impossible to estimate the scale of this. *IF* that price is correct. Which it isn't.
@@paulgoffin8054 If this is true we would have already seen a major change in vehicles. EV is still unusual for everyday people, the poor are still driving cars they can afford without altering their houses as well. The poor outnumber the rich by a huge degree.
@@squiremc I agree, which is why I'm saying this isn't true. Now, if CATL have only just started up at $40/kWh, then, obviously, ordinary people haven't had time to buy those batteries yet. But you'd expect to see the financial markets going crazy as everyone dumps fossil fuel stocks at any price. Military forces would be on high alert - gulf states, Russia, Norway, Australia, would become irrelevant overnight and bankrupt by Wednesday. Yeah, no. Not happening. Not yet.
An often overlooked advantage to widespread residential and manufacturing solar generation and storage is that it will take away the worst effects of a military attack on the nation's power grid. It will ago reduce the effective operating cost of personal transportation to nearly zero, freeing up petroleum resources for commercial and military years and reducing the economic and environment costs of those critical transportation resources. Lots of upsides. Not many drawbacks. It's going to be a long transition, but the meet result will absolutely be worth it.
So, everything changes yet again. Never a day passes that everything has not changed. Tomorrow everything will change again until there is nothing left to change ever again. That thought alone, changes everything.
Everything IS changing, in case you haven't noticed. Norway is at 90%+ EV; China, the world's largest car market is at 46% and growing fast. This change is happening incredibly fast and it's accelerating.
Just wait until those countries end the rebate and start charging road user charges, then you will see an NZ decline, no a fall off the cliff in sales!
@@gregb1599 I doubt it, EVs are getting better too fast. We'll almost be at price parity to buy by the end of this year and the ratio of electricity to petrol price is returning to normal
China's CATL has the newest and best EV Battery the new Second Generation Sodium Ion Hybred battery - highest energy density in 2024. Viva CATL; Viva China.
While the headlines have been chasing energy density, the real factor in some applications (budget cars, grid storage) is cost and longevity. It isn't that hard to make a car a little heavier and throw more batteries in engineering wise, but only if those batteries are significantly cheaper. I am not sure they will be. Sodium is absolutely real, happening now, and likely to be the majority of batteries in the world (by weight). Most of them just won't be in cars. Sodium is the ideal grid storage battery, with its longevity and safety and cost-per-watt-per-lifetime-cycles outperforming lithium, but its floorprint and power outperforming older chemistries. Weight and floorspace are less of a concern in grid storage. Price isn't just about the cost of the materials. Its a supply/demand thing too. In the short run, sodium batteries are actually more expensive. If their high cycle life and low cost per watt means the grid storage people buy them all up, there might not be a big value difference for carmakers who could pay some more for a much higher density LFP battery. CATL is also coming out with a next-gen LFP soon. Either way, these next gen chemistries are absolutely gonna destroy fossil fuels, both in the car market and the grid peaking market. Solar and wind are already destroying the bulk power market.
it's a bit silly to say that these won't be in cars due to their energy density when they have higher energy density than the packs in the best selling EV in the world.
@@somedude-lc5dy uh, no. CATL currenty supplies Tesla with an NCM battery that is about 300 wh/kg and CATL's gen 2 sodium is aiming for only 200. Gen 1 will is only 160. CATL does have battery packs coming out that have higher densities (including a 'condensed' aviation battery), but these have different chemistries. What we are seeing is a diversified portfolio of batteries for applications - sodium for grid storage and cheap cars, LFP for cars, and 'condensed' batteries for aviation and supercars. While there may one day be one battery to rule them all, today is not that day. Even if the most dense batteries were the cheapest to make, supply and demand means that the super batteries will command a high price and limited applications until they scale big enough in volume production.
Part of the cost benefit of Na-ion is their inability to form an alloy with Al. This allows replacement of the Cu current collector on the anode to be replaced with cheaper and lighter Al. If you have Li ions floating around in the electrolyte I wonder if this Li-Al alloying will be an issue and they have to go back to the more expensive Cu
If only the cost of energy generation were to fall as quickly as useful storage. Many countries have massively inflated energy costs, (like the EU). This has to change, let’s support companies solving clean generation as well. All of them.
The cost of energy generation is not what consumers should worry about. These days it is a less significant component of your bill. Transmission, distribution, retail margins, government ‘rent’ can all be bigger than the generation cost
Sam, I don't even break out my warm winter coat until it's colder than -25°C. And about 25% of the USA experiences -20°C or colder many times each winter.
Making the blanket statement that Cheaper batteries ends ICE's, coal even Nuclear etc is incorrect, due to Batteries being Temporary energy STORAGE systems that don't generate the energy, they store, which means that something elese has to generate that energy, which for some people might be coal or Nuclear or even ICE generator, electricity. Until we get fully distributed, decentralised Solar or Modular micro reactor generated energy produced from every home.
You're forgetting about the rate of energy conversion. An EV is 300% more energy efficient than a gas powered car. If every car on the road was an EV, the overall demand for energy generation would be dramatically lower. 💡
@@PETERJOHN101 Actually, electricity generation is never 100% efficient. Nuclear, geothermal, wind and hydro don't have reliable means of stating efficiency, but natural gas is at best 60% efficient, and that is for the relatively rare (don't ask me why) combined cycle plants. The more common simple cycle gas plants are about 25-30%, lower than hybrid cars. In reality, there is not enough energy generation or distribution capacity anywhere in the world right now to support 100% EVs today. I retired recently after 34 years with a Fortune 100 electric company on the Western Intertie (essentially all North America west of the Rockies, from the Sea of Cortez to the Arctic Circle). The public at large has no concept of the costs and timelines of adding generation or distribution. After a generation facility in the US is built and tested, it goes on a five year (at present) wait list for FERC approval to be added to the grid. About one out of five completed plants is withdrawn form the process before it can be certified. If the pace of construction doubles the wait time will also double. It isn't inaction, it is a matter of grid stability. The US U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) reports "About 60% of [US] electricity generation was from fossil fuels-coal, natural gas, petroleum, and other gases. About 19% was from nuclear energy, and about 21% was from renewable energy sources." We can turn our world upside down and still have most cars powered by fossil fuels in the end.
Solar and wind are dirt-cheap compared to anything else. If batteries are also dirt-cheap, any other power generation method will become unprofitable and end.
yes, the next magic battery is just around the corner. Any day now. We've been hearing that since ...1990? We've been working on batteries, since, oh, they were the first electric devices. over 225 years, and the best we've got is LiPo+ and variants. The best we get is marginal, incremental improvements.
I’ve said it before … whenever a new invention comes about, to make it a success, it has to be successfully tested under all conditions, be manufactured easily and cheaply and need cheap resources, it must be patented correctly, it must be marketed correctly, all environmental and safety laws must be observed, it has to be packaged in such a way that people find it COMPELLING (not just a “good idea”) and it would undoubtedly have to withstand multiple lawsuits from other competing technologies. So many hurdles!
Wow, every week the industry is shaken by these ! How can we progress then ? Hey, did you know that electricity first must be produced then DISTRIBUTED !
Yes, and the National Grid say that's goign to be absolutely OK and, thanks to the efficiency of EVs and the greeninug of the grid, far less energy will be needed and it'll consume far less Carbon.
Sodium could eventually replace Lithium, not only for large scale storage applications, but also for transport. Once super charging is ubiquitous, range becomes less critical. If one can get 200 km in 10 minutes of charging, that's all one needs. After 200 km driving one typically likes to take a 10 minute leg stretch, so it works out nicely. Basically it's like taking a short break after driving every two hours, which is very sensible. Probably best practice.
Worthwhile Battery improvements aside, one still needs an improved charging network and upgraded power grid to bring on the electric vehicle transformation.
I replaced an internal combustion engine twice, both in very old cars. The overwhelming majority of cars with ICE engines never need any major work on them. We have two Prius cars (one 2002, one 2014) that recently turned 200K miles. Neither of them has any engine issues. The 2002 recently needed a hybrid battery rebuild for $2000 and a couple days DIY. Many EVs are near end of life when the battery has to be replaced. The Tesla model 3 is typical of Teslas, with a $16,000 parts and labor cost (almost all parts. Ioniq is widely variable, with RepairPal estimating about $5500 but isolated $60,000 situations are reported for the Ioniq5 when the failure is from road debris damage.
@@flagmichael did you take the time to read my comment? "Will be" is future tense. Of course the cost of new battery technologies is high...for now. If you weren't so obviously anti-EV, you might be up to date with the developing and breakthrough battery sciences which will inevitably become less expensive than hybrid and ice technologies.
I am in my 70's, and have gotten excited by new battery technology for multiple decades, and other than lithium ion batteries, no new batteries have reached the market or made any impact. I would love some follow up to these press releases, and explanation for the failure to launch of so many ideas.
The price of batteries has dropped consistently since 2000 while the capacity of batteries have increased consistently since 2000. It takes two or three years for these announcements to come into production but right now we're benefiting from the announcements to 3 years ago.
The one thing I have kept saying is that electric vehicles will be the way we go, BUT, our battery tech isn't ready yet. I don't know if is where we need to go or if this is a step towards that but this is great news
Any insight on the extraction of Na+ from something like NaCl? Ion exchange is "promising," so even though Na is very abundant, it's not trivial to extract from a compound.
@@fromgermany271 "Daily"? Are you a Tesla-Q member who thinks EVs are not going to replace ICE? Anyway, there are regular game changers in tech, especially batteries and chips. That's not a totally unreasonable video title and not excessively clickbait. If you think this channel creates too much clickbait, then wander off. "Both CATL and BYD, major players in the battery industry, announced plans to significantly reduce battery costs in 2024, with a target of achieving a 50% reduction by year's end. This could be a game-changer for the electric vehicle (EV) market." LOL, even Gemini talks of "game-changer."
All I can say is most other chemicals exist in nature as a compound... including lithium. If sodium wasn't easily separated, sodium batteries wouldn't exist. (Heck, our bodies can do it.)
@@marcguindon8499 "Easily" is a question of degree (a relative term). Li is not easy to refine, yet is commercially viable for batteries - why do those batteries exist? H2 fuel cells use Pa and Ir, so, rare and expensive materials are not prohibitive for use in many applications. Also, I think you are confusing the terms element and ion with "chemicals." I was just asking a question about the extraction of Na+ to better understand that component of this tech's cost, not to be simple minded and just say, "salt is everywhere." You do know there are emerging processes to more efficiently extract Na+, right? Lastly, you think comparing an animal/biological process to an industrial one has any real relevance, in this case? Photosynthesis has an efficiency of around 10% and electrolysis of around 60-80%. Clearly it can be done by a living thing, but that doesn't mean it's commercially viable. I can burn oxygen but not as fast as a fire.
Every few weeks there's a 'new' battery tech, based on some hand built prototypes. There is a long step between small batch production and mass production. Actual new tech appears first in small products (phones, computers, power tools) before working its way into automobiles. That's the place to realistically look for the future. [The other, and bigger, problem is that fast charging requires very high current charging (no matter how efficient the battery is--that's physics). The infrastructure to massively distribute that level of power (as well as the need to make it safe for ordinary customers to handle daily) is not ready.
Mate, we have had so many game changers. The game hasn't changed. Stop it. Undoubtedly, you would have called it when it does change though. Which it will, eventually, but with which bit of tech?
That comment about -20C in video said it maintains 90% capacity at that temperature. I believe it's as good as current batteries or better, so I don't see anything to worry about.
Just when we were going to be saved by solid state batteries now its sodium. Still waiting for those fantastic chargers that most of the world can't access.
China CATL, the little-known Chinese battery maker that has the US worried This article is more than 1 month old It is the world’s biggest battery maker, it powers electric vehicles for Tesla, Volkswagen and BMW, and its EV technology is miles ahead of US offerings, say experts
So choose to buy an I.C.E. hybrid vehicle from Toyota. Toyota, smartly, has many Hybrids with the same model name as their 100% I.C.E. vehicle,.....so....purchase clarity made easy !
Solid state battery will be the game changer. Next Es/Ls replacement will have plugin ice hybrid with solid state batteries, will hit the market in 2026, already in test
California, in the past month or so, has had a few days where their entire grid was powered and sustained via battery storage, completely by renewable energy. This achievement is ahead of schedule but we need to double renewable output and storage by double so as to have enough energy on demand 24/7 365. Have faith, its coming but only because it's cheaper than any fossil fuel method and greed always wins!
@@markapplejohn4376 Good to know. Wonder if this was planned just to show off, or was just a fluke? The fact that it wasn't everyday makes me think it was a political stunt.
@@markapplejohn4376I would agree with you mostly, but it's greed that is holding us back. The political might of oil and gas industry cannot be over stated.
It seems like the losing battery companies tried toi hard to focus on one battery chemistry than putting more time on hybrid synergy. I get that reducing complexity has value when one chemistry can completely envelope another in all parameters. However, developing competitive chemistry groups brings a knowledge set you dont get from just one focus. I can see where the sodium operating in cold temps can help preheat lithium to its optimal state prior to utilizing it's chemistry has its advantages and may take up less real estate and power consumption than other temperature management schemes.
Nope. All it will take is economics. You are comparing giving up CARS, which is closer but also not great to your analogs. Getting the shots was a mistake if one had a choice, but that's a tangent.
@@Mrbfgray I’m speaking as a current Tesla owner who bought one by choice not mandate which is what their trying to do with EV’s and tried and failed to do in many millions of cases with the vaccine’s. Even when an EV becomes cheaper than ICE because they’ve tried to force it on people they don’t even want to look at it even if it’s better in many ways. If a new Covid strain comes out today how many people will get the shot after what we just went through. With the age of misinformation people hate?EV’s, vaccines and believe the earth is flat,
@@fergyspoolshots I agree mandates are retarded and counterproductive. But most Americans live hand to mouth and cars are one of the biggest expenses. When they realize they can cut that cost by, say 4X? Yeah they'll switch pretty fast.
Good news for vehicles but surely for home storage the goal is cost over energy density? Just big enough to store a days worth of solar for 48 hours of home energy use.
While on one hand this is pretty much the good news I have been hoping for for decades... there is this one thing. Batteries do energy storage. Not generation. Now let us hope we make good choices building up a renewable energy grid to feed those things. We can do that.
Wind chill doesn't count. That's a value that describes how a person will perceive the actual temp. For example: A bulb of water hanging from a tree when it's 33 f out with a wind chill of 28 won't freeze.
@@dguy321 Im asserting weather patterns in a geographic area, but you seem to want to talk about thermodynamics. Should I just say that my local area goes colder than -4 F? -15 F with no windchill happens once a winter. -40F with windchill. An object will lose it's thermal energy faster in wind chill conditions.
So, RethinkX was right and based on their research this was predictable, even if not intuitive (which exponential change is not). It's like other tech adoption...mass adoption keeps getting faster. The demise of ICE was inevitable - it's mechanical vs. electric tech, and we know what wins in these cases. Analog computers still exist but they aren't anything more than a blip that's not relevant to 99.999% of people.
An electric motor is still mechanical - as are all the other mechanical parts on a car like wipers, door locks, etc. These things are still going to wear out. And now we have the added complication of batteries that give out. Not cheap to fix. The REAL reason ICE will go away is that oil will eventually run out, or become so scarce that it is too expensive for the average person to buy petrol or diesel.
@@aftonline No, peak oil is a myth, for the time being. It's like the line of dullards who have predicted the end of Moore's law. The US is currently producing more oil than any other country in history. The transition, although accelerated by incentives, will occur for economic reasons - BEV costs are dropping like a stone, while ICE keeps getting more expensive. A BEV has around 10X fewer parts than an ICE vehicle, and the moving parts in an BEV are open to huge improvements, unlike ICE engines, transmissions, exhausts, etc. Hence, new electric motors with ZERO rare earth magnets. Battery durability is FUD, with all BEVs in the US having min. 8 year and 100K mile warranties. "Electric vehicles can claim 15-year warranty as CATL outs million-mile battery with zero degradation in 1000 cycles"
@@aftonline Peak oil is a myth, there is no supply issue there. The reason ICE cars can't compete with EV tech is because fuel savings combined with near zero maintenance will drive the cost of battery replacement to zero.
@@aftonline No, peak oil is a myth, for the time being. It's like the line of dullards who have predicted the end of Moore's law. The US is currently producing more oil than any other country in history. The transition, although accelerated by incentives, will occur for economic reasons - BEV costs are dropping like a stone, while ICE keeps getting more expensive. A BEV has around 10X fewer parts than an ICE vehicle, and the moving parts in an BEV are open to huge improvements, unlike ICE engines, transmissions, exhausts, etc. Hence, new electric motors with ZERO rare earth magnets. Battery durability is FUD, with all BEVs in the US having min. 8 year and 100K mile warranties. "Electric vehicles can claim 15-year warranty as CATL outs million-mile battery with zero degradation in 1000 cycles"
![KSI - Dirty [Official Visualiser]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VoDh1h1dPUE/mqdefault.jpg)
Watt-hour Sam!!! Watt-hour. Units are important. Physics depends on it.
When they drop that one, I drop their video.
If this battery would really be sold for 40 USD per kWh that would be a gamechanger indeed. That should make a complete pack with 55 kWh (50 usable) for only 3000 USD possible. The weight of such a pack would be around 350 kg, assuming about 160 Wh/kg on the pack level, instead of 200 Wh/kg on the cell level. A 22 kWh pack for a small city car would only cost around 1500 USD and weigh about 150 kg. A solar battery with 2 kWh would only cost about 100 USD and weigh about 14 kg, a home battery with 10 kWh would only cost about 1000 USD, including the BMS, housing etc. and weigh about 70 kg.
As you say, *IF*
With home batteries, go up. Let's talk 100kWh in each home. With solar, that solves lot of grid issues.
@@MrVolodus heck, even without solar, charge your battery once a month for small homes! I rarely get above 5kwh usage a day. 100kwh battery on my home would be amazing!
Electric viking is wrong,200 wh/kg in cell not pack,shenxing plus has 205 in pack and blade 2 has 190 wh/kg in pack not cell,shenxing plus has 260 wh/kg cells,blade 2 has 247 wh/kg in cell,CATL's sodium ion battery has 200 wh/kg cell and 152 wh/kg in pack level,please be more accurate sam
For home storage first!
Just for reference: May 5 2024
The CATL Shenxing Plus LFP battery energy density is 205 Wh/kg (Also has great cold weather performance)
The Tesla 4680 is estimated at 272-296 Wh/kg
This new CATL Sodium Ion hybrid Battery is 200 Wh/Kg (The advange will be 30% cost saving and 90% cold weather performance)
So, worse but cheaper… unless you are in a cold country rich from its massive oil exports…
Life is good at the ins4ne asylum…
Diesel: 12,700 Wh/kg
Gasoline: 12,200 Wh/kg
Fill time 5 minutes 😂
@@xraylife Having 1 advantage doesn't negate the other 10 disadvantages.
@@xraylife What will drive the adoption of the EV is that the *cost of operation* of the electric car / truck / bus / boat / equipment is lower than running on Diesel or Gasoline. EVs are cheaper to operate today, which is why fleet managers are buying EVs. Better batteries will accelerate this adoption.
@@Trust_but_Verify I agree, ICE's have way more advantages that just carrying a much higher energy density source.
Thanks, Loved the video on the sodium hybrid battery !
I hope you are right about this new battery ,. I do remember in one of Toney Seba's talks where he said that from concept to retail use for a new battery is 9 years .
Also every year Lithium batteries have on average fallen by 16% in price and there energy density has increased by 4% on average. So whatever you invent today , has to be alot better than where Lithium will be in 9 years .
All that being said , you would think that Lithium batteries must be getting near to the end of there continuous price falling average of 16% .
-20°C is not extremely cold, but for 99% of people it's colder than.they ever get.
Yeah those pathetic humans never experienced Siberian Winter
Half the US can get that cold but not for any extended amount of time. I live in Missouri and the last 3 winters we hit -10°F / -25°C below. I know Kansas regularly hits that temp. I think Kentucky and Tennessee saw close to those temperatures also.
I have seen -30C
Just keep car plugged in till you go
Im gonna want some mix of this with the cybertruck...
I would try to patent a sodium bromite battery just so I can call my company NaBro.
Lol, very good!!
NaBrO is sodium bromite you should focus on that stuff!
I'm off to the kitchen to make a Promite battery.
You from NZ?😁
no need for patent to name a company/establish a brand
If you swap a partridge for a pheasant, that’s a game changer
Hahaha I guess most people won't get that pun
Depends on the game. Swap EV battery for one 30% cheaper and lighter and it IS a game changer. U$4000 is real money for some folks.
@@michaelnurse9089 Christ get a sense of humor.
As a Canadian I can tell you we often go colder than -20ºC.
Living on the westcoast of British Columbia, -20C doesn't happen but I get your point. As 90% of Canadians live within 100 miles of the USA border, it will make sense buying an EV with this battery as there are few days in a year that there is sustained -20C... This tech will only get better and you will see automakers find a workaround for extremely cold days...
But that's outside exposed to the full airstream .. you can insulate the pack relatively easily. And these fast charge at room temps.
Yeah but Canada's not a real country. 😁
In some places the union contract says that at -40C you don't have to show up for work.
The way to think about it is to consider the amount of energy bleed required for the car to keep the batteries at a usable temperature while just parked there doing nothing. Cells capable of charging at -20C in -40C weather only need half the bleed energy that cells capable of charging at 0C in -40C weather would need.
In -30C weather it would only need 1/4th the energy. You get the idea.
Anyone living in Canada with an EV over winter already knows that the EV pretty much needs to be near-full, or left plugged-in if it is going to be parked outside overnight in weather that cold. So this is mainly a matter of how much energy the car wastes keeping the vehicle operational after the battery has become full.
Of course, ICE engines and components don't really fare very well in ultra-cold weather either. You really have to take care of *any* car in weather that cold if you don't want it to have an early retirement.
-Matt
Watt is a unit of power. Watt-hour is a unit of energy. Battery energy storage capacity is measured in watt-hours. Battery energy density is measured in watt-hours per kilogram.
Can also be measured by volume instead of weight.
Sam, I can't describe how much I enjoy your videos. You bring us news from the state-of-the-art of technology and explain in clear language and clear-headedness what it ‘signifies.’ That’s precious!
Here in Michigan it can get to -20 C. Most ICE vehicles have trouble starting without a engine block warmer.
Thanks!
Watt *HOUR* per kg, Sam, not just watt per kg.
This is the trouble with RUclips people don’t need any credentials in order to make comment about things They don’t understand the units aren’t just important, but it demonstrates that this guy does not actually have enough physics knowledge to be competently discussing battery technology. the other thing which is Missed completely as he commented “this is the end of coal”! Hang on a second the battery doesn’t generate power, you still need to charge the battery whatever type it is, and this is one of the problems in many countries insufficient, renewable energy
“This ends coal it end nuclear “ ffs batteries don’t generate electricity. They just store it. Also, watt-hour per kg. It seems you don’t know much.
No, not yet. Getting closer though. CATL and BYD are pulling-up the baseline capabilities of several chemistries. The most interesting right now is CATL's Shenxing 2 (or Shenxing Plus, depending). That one is a LFP battery with (a) very good cold-weather charging, (b) 4C charging, (c) LFP (safety), and (d) around 205 Wh/kg... competitive with NMC.
That covers all the bases except the ultimate ICE killer which will be an energy density closer to 300 Wh/kg... we want THAT in LFP but we don't have it yet. Once we get that, it is game over.
The current sodium battery announcements, particularly the hybrid, are NOT a game-over technology.
-Matt
Why are they hiding the cycles of the Shenxing Plus battery? Also we need 4C charging without cooling
That will be the Na S tech they are working on .. and that will be light and cheap and have the power.
@@rwyo83 You'll never get 4C charging without cooling, with any battery chemistry except maybe lithium-titanate (which isn't suitable for most applications). But cooling really isn't that big a deal. Just being able to do 4C for any appreciable amount of time at all means the internal resistance of the cells is already gonna be pretty low.
I doubt they are hiding the cycle count, being LFP batteries one can assume it's gonna be at least 3000 cycles @ 80% DOD to 80% capacity. That is pretty much a given for this chemistry.
@@rwyo83Not hiding the battery... Just still at the lab stage ..
What about the 500wh/kg condensed battery? Wouldn't that be an ICE killer if the price per kwh is low enough?
It's ENERGY density is 200 watt-HOURS per kilogram.
Watts per kilogram would be power density.
Ah, don’t worry about such details. As long it is the daily game changer.
😂
I like your precision.
people try to tell him every time but he has a brain like kelly bundy. no chance to learn this. it is like not knowing the difference between speed and distance.
Hmm. Sam isn’t as hot on the electrical physics / electrochemistry as he is at making videos based on the marketing material from the world of automotive electrics. He’s pretty good at using cool looking graphic that suggest amazing tech without giving any real numbers away. He’s always saying something is umpteen percent better. Better than what? Percentage is a comparison. He never (or hardly ever) gives the comparison, except ICE. 😂
Could you explain this in more detail? Sorry, I am getting it but not getting it.
You can now start to see a sort of Moore's Law affecting EV prices. ICE technology has got marginally more efficient over the last 40 years (small capacity, 3 cylinders, high-revving turbos ..etc) but at the expense of more complexity. It's really gone as far as it can go. My Dad's 1978 2.0L Ford Cortina is really not that different to my last ICE car, a 2016 2.0L Ford Sierra.
Battery technology is evolving so rapidly, especially if Solid-state goes into full production, that we could be looking at overtaking ICE in every aspect in 10 years (range, charging speeds, weight ... everything).
13 years ago the Mk1 Nissan LEAF did about 120km maximum. Now we're approaching the point where 400km is becoming standard. I can genuinely see 500km being ubiquitous in 10 years, with 1000km on high-end vehicles.
It's great to be part of this revolution and witness the rapid evolution.
That is the one bright spot in the daunting logistics of transitioning toward electric cars: the slow pace of actually making the change (the public has little idea of the incredible costs and logistical hurdles involved) allows for innovation even as we move forward.
Once the public understands that few of us will live long enough to see the change complete it will learn to be happy improving the pieces step by step rather than having a completely raw product suddenly trying to be the final product.
I realise many people on here don't know that China is a vast country, in the NE Heilongjiang province is close to the coldest town on the planet c-30/50 to the Far east in Xinjiang,, Taklaman desert temperatures can be over 40. Surprisingly they test the vehicles to operate in Both regions.
Just drove my 02 CRV to breakfast in Bangkok that you can see the fuel gauge dropping as you drive. My wife and I discussing how new battery technology is changing daily. Hope I live long enough to find the right EV for us.
Driving in Bangkok makes not much sense.
I'm 52 years old. I too hope to live long enough to see a battery technology that's actually practical.
@@Ria-hx8nlBatteries have been good enough for more then 5 years already. Don't let the oil propaganda get to you. If we can use these cars in Norway and Iceland easily everybody can.
You'd be better off right now with a hybrid car. They work best for city driving.
@@Ria-hx8nl Battery technology has been practical for years! Yes, you can come up with exceptional circumstances where EV is a challenging option but to suggest it's not practical for most people is simply incorrect.
Thank you for another informative video on this subject matter. You save me a lot of time.
The magic batter of the week that will be so much better but we will never hear about again.
Yes so true. Every week the words of breakthrough and game changer. Then never hear again. Very tiring all this pablum.
Difference between lab results from research facilities and pre production units from large scale producers
Only the 3rd miracle battery breakthrough in the last week- slow week I guess.
@@michael-qp9xd Battery breakthrough of next week: pablum!
90% charge at -20C. Essential even in New York. When I was working there in the early 1080s we had -1F/-18C and barely any higher for a few weeks, so that when the temp rose to 32F/0C I was walking around without a coat and not feeling cold.
While I wouldn’t say never but the foreseeable future (this century) oil will be around.
Jet fuel for planes (or future starships) to missiles. Massive cargo ships.
A new type of propulsion system would be created powered by say fusion reactors.
Sodium ion batteries are probably going to be most useful for fixed installations where density isn't such a big deal. The density could be an issue for cars but it ultimately depends on what density they get vs LFP. I expect the cost savings will mean that a lot of cars will be using sodium ion batteries though.
but the energy density of the V1 and V2 batteries are already on par with the best selling EVs in the world; why would it suddenly become a problem?
Keep in mind that Tony S. gave his predictions in 2010 or 2014 dollars which are now almost worth $2 each. So in reality he was very conservative in his estimates on the speed of battery prices dropping. Hopefully the same will go for Solar power systems. So now, with energy and transport nearly handled, all we need are good governments and good food!
Americans aren’t that smart.
-20°c is warm day in spring time. Hello from Finland!
This weeks "game changer".
You are fantastic because logic runs your mind. You are smart and honest.
Sarcasm, right ?
The units used for measuring the energy density of a battery can be watt hours per kilogram not watts per kilogram.
The end of coal the end of nuclear electricity comes from coal comes from nuclear comes from natural gas only a tiny fraction of electricity can be produced by solar during the day
Sam doesn't even try anymore
@@gordonwardhaugh8266I think Sam's a little off base, but I believe what he is always talking about is with batteries being that cheap and on an accelerated reduction in cost, it makes the kilowatt hours per dollar cheaper when solar is the fuel source and it's stored in batteries
Who cares, about the details, it's gong to end fossil fuels.....again, lol.
Joules/kg.
I’m in western Canada. -20C is not rare, but it didn’t happen much this past winter.
The winter of 78/79 set a record of three months below -20C.
Since we have very little charging infrastructure, my goal is AWD and 370 miles of range. Not buying until that target is hit (and it’s affordable).
Batteries are energy storage. Nuclear is energy creation. Very different things.
We don't need no freaking Nuclear, Oil or Gas, we got salt batteries now, get with the program Heretic.
I wish Sam would do a comparison of the total mass requirement for nuclear and solar.
I think he means that with a wonder storage system energy creation may go renewables 100%.
I think that we’ll need nuclear for a long time, for some sort of baseline that does not depend on anything variable and uncertain.
@@waywardgeologist2520
Sam has been lying by omission since this chanel started, why would you expect him to be honest now?
Energy creation? Now that would be a real game changer😂. the world is awash in energy the only real problem is storage and distribution.
Awesome News. I look forward to eventually owning such a battery in my EV, ... then in my home based Solar System :+)
I can see manufacturers maintaining the EV prices similar to ICE cars just to maintain their desired profits
Not really. While Toyota is attempting to perfect hydrogen powered engines to more easily commoditize such complex patents and IP, that isn't possible with battery tech due to the cost curve. Legacy carmakers don't know how to put this genie back in the bottle.
Also govs with tariffs
I can see this enabling them to still make a buck on lower end EVs. There's a huge completely unfulfilled market down there that EV manufacturers currently can't or won't compete in.
Legacy car makers might be motivated to protect their ICE revenues that way. However, EV-only manufacturers are highly motivated to win market share, so they will probably pass on most of the cost saving.
The new battery of the month!
All you need is a cheap, fast charging, battery with 400 miles of range which is what gasoline cars do. I can't sit in a car for more than 4 hours! That's around 240 miles of highway driving.
Please build Na-ion battery factories in Europe, I need those for my house
Just looked it up record low temp in Minnesota is - 60 I have a heated garage keep it at about 50 degrees.
Sounds bloody awful.
I cringe every time you keep expressing energy density in in "Watts per Kg". It's Watt Hours per Kg (or per unit volume). Watts is a measure of instantaneous power. Why do we care? Because the other important metric is power density which is Watts per unit volume and it's about how fast you can get get power out of the battery, rather than how much it stores (matters a lot for fast cars and airplane). But you know all this already, so please stop using incorrect units.
Hope your comment is correct, and if so that Sam aka Viking sees it 👍
Will greedy America try to put a meter on it the price of salt will go up
Viking great analogy best burger cheapest price I really can picture this but is it a lab dream or out in the wild?
@@darylcliffordsure it’s correct. watt is joule (energy) / second (time) and energy/time is power. but kilojoule is not as intuitive as watt hour so that is used usually for energy.
Relax 😁😄😅😂🤣
When will this battery hit the market ?
And also when will CATL bring their new $56/kWh Li-ion battery ?
I'm no chemist but I do know you're not allowed to throw sodium chloride at people because that's assault.
Thermal Runaway Potential ? Have you ever seen NA+ ( Sodium) Burn ? That is why NA+ is shipped in Mineral Oil to keep the NA+ from combusting when exposed to air with humidity.
Storage Requirements:....."Sodium must be stored in a closed container under kerosene, toluene, or mineral oil. Contact with water should be avoided because sodium reacts violently with water to form hydrogen (H2) with evolution of sufficient heat to cause ignition...."
Sounds great. But I’ve been hearing this for a long time. Lots of hype extremely slow delivery and cheaper better batteries. And cheaper better electric cars. I’ll believe it when I see it in the showroom.
Your point is reasonable. But I think the problem is us. We expect these gamechangers (haha) to hit the market very quickly but I guess manufacturing doesn't work to our wishlist time scales. But if we look back several years, the advances become more apparent. 5 years ago, I don't think LFP was even on the market. Then it came in at about 160 kwh/kg. Now its up to approx 200 kwh/kg and the prices keep dropping. So I think we're getting there, just not as fast as our 'modern life' brains would like.
It's the same battery, Sam just changes the graphics and the specs, so he can announce the next 'game changer'
The first 250mile+ EV, 16 years ago, cost $150k for a basic two seater. In 2012 the price dropped to $80k, to $45k in 2016. Now it's $25k or so and still falling fast, driven by exactly these kinds of advances in battery capability and cost. What part am I missing?
It's because western car makers drag their feet. For a long time it was very deliberate, now they are just years behind and have sluggish processes. These news come out of China and are in cheap chinese cars in China. Till this technology gets here, without massive tariffs on it, it will take a few more years.
Legacy auto maybe has two years to become competitive before the Chinese are flooding the markets with EVs. Else it's game over for them.
And yes, EVs have become far cheaper in the last decade. But as with every technology, it becomes ever more challenging to squeeze out more efficiency. The reason why ICE development is practically zero. But for EVs, which are already having a lower TCO than ICE it's still in the early stages of development.
It's just a matter of time when ICE is finally done. Technically it's already done. It's just that production capacity for EVs still has to ramp up and that purchase price for an EV is far too dominant in the people's minds.
Can it be charged below freezing? Thank you!
Hope you are right. Sitting on the sidelines for another decade until this sorts itself out. Range. RANGE. RANGE!
EVs now provide the same range as a gasoline powered car. It's not 2018 any more. 😂
No, it's CHARGE CHARGE CHARGE.
There's millions of apartment dwellers out there, and unless they can get their car charged at a place that is just as common as a Gas station in 10 minutes or under, their gonna stick to their gas powered cars, regardless of range and the price of EV's may match but will NEVER be below gas cars, and most places, and battery tech, are years away from that scenario, not to mention underdeveloped Countries.
That's what the surveys show, convenience is King
@@PETERJOHN101I can get 1000km range from my 60l tank on the open highway, I'm waiting
@@PETERJOHN101 Issue is, even cheapest 13k gasoline car (Dacia Sandero, 12600€) can go 750km. EVs that come somewhat close, are 50k€+.
I love EVs, but really, range is not their strong side.
Range will be around 200-300 miles. Once we can make battery packs based in new chemistry that can go further than that, we will make them smaller and keep range at 200-300miles… Elon pointed out over ten years ago he could make a car with 500mile range by fitting it with two of his standard Tesla battery packs. But carrying all that extra weight around ever day when the range was only needed rarely was daft. Better to keep range to 200-300miles and concentrate on charging faster for the rare occasion you need to travel further.
It's convincing enough to admit that it's the future of power generation and storage for almost everything and nothing else is even close to it's advancement in development
I hear what you're saying, but when will we ever see any of these on the market? And why don't we see these price cuts in energy products?
you been loving under a rock? EV prices have been dropping.
The charge condition slope is not as flat as LiFePO4, or lead acid. Resembles a supercapacitor charge/discharge graph, while the total capacity may be larger, the usable capacity is limited by the power accessible by the inverter. Voltage too high on the 100% charge end, and too low to power the inverter on the low end, well before 0% charge. So a 30% increase in total battery capacity is only about the same usable capacity as the LiFePO4 chemistry.
ICE vehicles will be around for quite a time yet. It doesn't matter how effective the energy storage is, the infrastructure still cannot deal with everybody plugging their cars into charge at 6:00 every evening.
Wrong. *IF* these prices are correct (they're not), then trickle charging a battery at a charger location solves the problem of "everyone charging at once".
In fact, it's game over, overnight, for everything to do with fossil fuels.
Think about it, under $5000 for some solar panels and a battery and you never need buy energy for your home again. $50,000 and most businesses become self sufficient in energy.
The economic shock to global economics would be massive - it's impossible to estimate the scale of this.
*IF* that price is correct.
Which it isn't.
@@paulgoffin8054 If this is true we would have already seen a major change in vehicles.
EV is still unusual for everyday people, the poor are still driving cars they can afford without altering their houses as well.
The poor outnumber the rich by a huge degree.
@@squiremc I agree, which is why I'm saying this isn't true.
Now, if CATL have only just started up at $40/kWh, then, obviously, ordinary people haven't had time to buy those batteries yet.
But you'd expect to see the financial markets going crazy as everyone dumps fossil fuel stocks at any price.
Military forces would be on high alert - gulf states, Russia, Norway, Australia, would become irrelevant overnight and bankrupt by Wednesday.
Yeah, no.
Not happening.
Not yet.
@@paulgoffin8054 Agreed.
An often overlooked advantage to widespread residential and manufacturing solar generation and storage is that it will take away the worst effects of a military attack on the nation's power grid. It will ago reduce the effective operating cost of personal transportation to nearly zero, freeing up petroleum resources for commercial and military years and reducing the economic and environment costs of those critical transportation resources. Lots of upsides. Not many drawbacks. It's going to be a long transition, but the meet result will absolutely be worth it.
This changes eve…………. No I can’t do it 😂
Good, I like Eve the way she is.
So, how many cycles? How long will this battery last?
So, everything changes yet again. Never a day passes that everything has not changed. Tomorrow everything will change again until there is nothing left to change ever again. That thought alone, changes everything.
Everything IS changing, in case you haven't noticed. Norway is at 90%+ EV; China, the world's largest car market is at 46% and growing fast. This change is happening incredibly fast and it's accelerating.
@@WillBecker I don't doubt that at all. It's the HYPE that kills me man.. the HYPE
@@xyork some of its hype. This isn’t, this is catl.
Just wait until those countries end the rebate and start charging road user charges, then you will see an NZ decline, no a fall off the cliff in sales!
@@gregb1599 I doubt it, EVs are getting better too fast. We'll almost be at price parity to buy by the end of this year and the ratio of electricity to petrol price is returning to normal
China's CATL has the newest and best EV Battery the new Second Generation Sodium Ion Hybred battery - highest energy density in 2024. Viva CATL; Viva China.
While the headlines have been chasing energy density, the real factor in some applications (budget cars, grid storage) is cost and longevity. It isn't that hard to make a car a little heavier and throw more batteries in engineering wise, but only if those batteries are significantly cheaper. I am not sure they will be.
Sodium is absolutely real, happening now, and likely to be the majority of batteries in the world (by weight). Most of them just won't be in cars. Sodium is the ideal grid storage battery, with its longevity and safety and cost-per-watt-per-lifetime-cycles outperforming lithium, but its floorprint and power outperforming older chemistries. Weight and floorspace are less of a concern in grid storage.
Price isn't just about the cost of the materials. Its a supply/demand thing too. In the short run, sodium batteries are actually more expensive. If their high cycle life and low cost per watt means the grid storage people buy them all up, there might not be a big value difference for carmakers who could pay some more for a much higher density LFP battery. CATL is also coming out with a next-gen LFP soon. Either way, these next gen chemistries are absolutely gonna destroy fossil fuels, both in the car market and the grid peaking market. Solar and wind are already destroying the bulk power market.
it's a bit silly to say that these won't be in cars due to their energy density when they have higher energy density than the packs in the best selling EV in the world.
@@somedude-lc5dy uh, no. CATL currenty supplies Tesla with an NCM battery that is about 300 wh/kg and CATL's gen 2 sodium is aiming for only 200. Gen 1 will is only 160.
CATL does have battery packs coming out that have higher densities (including a 'condensed' aviation battery), but these have different chemistries. What we are seeing is a diversified portfolio of batteries for applications - sodium for grid storage and cheap cars, LFP for cars, and 'condensed' batteries for aviation and supercars.
While there may one day be one battery to rule them all, today is not that day. Even if the most dense batteries were the cheapest to make, supply and demand means that the super batteries will command a high price and limited applications until they scale big enough in volume production.
Part of the cost benefit of Na-ion is their inability to form an alloy with Al. This allows replacement of the Cu current collector on the anode to be replaced with cheaper and lighter Al. If you have Li ions floating around in the electrolyte I wonder if this Li-Al alloying will be an issue and they have to go back to the more expensive Cu
If only the cost of energy generation were to fall as quickly as useful storage.
Many countries have massively inflated energy costs, (like the EU). This has to change, let’s support companies solving clean generation as well.
All of them.
If you own a home you can generate your own solar panels here in the US are ridiculously cheap
@@callmebigpapa
Do you use a generator to generate your own solar panels?
The cost of energy generation is not what consumers should worry about. These days it is a less significant component of your bill. Transmission, distribution, retail margins, government ‘rent’ can all be bigger than the generation cost
@@conventionalwisdom So true! most people don't really look at their bill they just pay it.
Many countries (like Australia) have falling electricity prices. Due to the rampant solar installation.
Sam, I don't even break out my warm winter coat until it's colder than -25°C. And about 25% of the USA experiences -20°C or colder many times each winter.
Battery sodium temperature are -40° C to 60° C
Making the blanket statement that Cheaper batteries ends ICE's, coal even Nuclear etc is incorrect, due to Batteries being Temporary energy STORAGE systems that don't generate the energy, they store, which means that something elese has to generate that energy, which for some people might be coal or Nuclear or even ICE generator, electricity. Until we get fully distributed, decentralised Solar or Modular micro reactor generated energy produced from every home.
You're forgetting about the rate of energy conversion. An EV is 300% more energy efficient than a gas powered car. If every car on the road was an EV, the overall demand for energy generation would be dramatically lower. 💡
I’m all a small modular home reactor!
@@PETERJOHN101 Actually, electricity generation is never 100% efficient. Nuclear, geothermal, wind and hydro don't have reliable means of stating efficiency, but natural gas is at best 60% efficient, and that is for the relatively rare (don't ask me why) combined cycle plants. The more common simple cycle gas plants are about 25-30%, lower than hybrid cars.
In reality, there is not enough energy generation or distribution capacity anywhere in the world right now to support 100% EVs today. I retired recently after 34 years with a Fortune 100 electric company on the Western Intertie (essentially all North America west of the Rockies, from the Sea of Cortez to the Arctic Circle). The public at large has no concept of the costs and timelines of adding generation or distribution. After a generation facility in the US is built and tested, it goes on a five year (at present) wait list for FERC approval to be added to the grid. About one out of five completed plants is withdrawn form the process before it can be certified. If the pace of construction doubles the wait time will also double. It isn't inaction, it is a matter of grid stability.
The US U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) reports "About 60% of [US] electricity generation was from fossil fuels-coal, natural gas, petroleum, and other gases. About 19% was from nuclear energy, and about 21% was from renewable energy sources." We can turn our world upside down and still have most cars powered by fossil fuels in the end.
Solar and wind are dirt-cheap compared to anything else. If batteries are also dirt-cheap, any other power generation method will become unprofitable and end.
@@flagmichael Germany generated 53% of its electricity with renewables in 2023. If your grid can't handle that, you might need to fix your grid.
yes, the next magic battery is just around the corner. Any day now. We've been hearing that since ...1990? We've been working on batteries, since, oh, they were the first electric devices. over 225 years, and the best we've got is LiPo+ and variants. The best we get is marginal, incremental improvements.
Sodium is a metal heavier than Lithium, but they’ve got a sodium battery that has higher energy density than Lithium one. This is amazing.
It's about the same energy density by weight as LFP. NMC is still king.
This should be applicable to smartphones, tools and laptops then?
Tools maybe, for most Laptops and Smartphones it's too heavy and probably also too big.
I'm still waiting for CATL's Condensed battery which you had announced 8 months ago.
They did launch that last year, perhaps make a trip to China to buy one and bring home and do a review?
Condensed battery is with silicone anode, these batteries have very low cycles, not good for EVs
There’s always another unicorn battery around the corner. The E Viking been hitting the cool aid again.
That 'game changer' that was going to 'end fossil fuels', is so 2023.
That's not coming to cars or other electronics. It's way too expensive. Its use is in aviation, where weight is actually important.
I called the lithium conversion to sodium in 2011 in conversations with bank analysts
Great info!
Ignore the trolls on this channel.
I’ve said it before … whenever a new invention comes about, to make it a success, it has to be successfully tested under all conditions, be manufactured easily and cheaply and need cheap resources, it must be patented correctly, it must be marketed correctly, all environmental and safety laws must be observed, it has to be packaged in such a way that people find it COMPELLING (not just a “good idea”) and it would undoubtedly have to withstand multiple lawsuits from other competing technologies. So many hurdles!
Wow, every week the industry is shaken by these ! How can we progress then ?
Hey, did you know that electricity first must be produced then DISTRIBUTED !
Yes, and the National Grid say that's goign to be absolutely OK and, thanks to the efficiency of EVs and the greeninug of the grid, far less energy will be needed and it'll consume far less Carbon.
yeah but how many times can you charge it with the solid state batteries you only can charge them so many times before it goes bad
Another game changer? The game has been changed so many times no one is buying anything anymore.
Best selling car in the world last year was an EV.
#1 Car manufacturer in the world is an EV maker ⚡️🇺🇸
@@larryc1616 And the rest on the top 10 list? 🤣
@@larryc1616 All car sales have slumped - that was the point.
Absolutely correct listening about game changer every time which will never hit market.
We need to go back to horse buggy
Sodium could eventually replace Lithium, not only for large scale storage applications, but also for transport. Once super charging is ubiquitous, range becomes less critical. If one can get 200 km in 10 minutes of charging, that's all one needs. After 200 km driving one typically likes to take a 10 minute leg stretch, so it works out nicely. Basically it's like taking a short break after driving every two hours, which is very sensible. Probably best practice.
Solar 🌞 Energy Battery 🔋 Storage costs about to drop 50% AGAIN!!
Worthwhile Battery improvements aside, one still needs an improved charging network and upgraded power grid to bring on the electric vehicle transformation.
Replacing a battery pack will be a lot cheaper and much less complex than swapping out an ice engine.
I replaced an internal combustion engine twice, both in very old cars. The overwhelming majority of cars with ICE engines never need any major work on them. We have two Prius cars (one 2002, one 2014) that recently turned 200K miles. Neither of them has any engine issues. The 2002 recently needed a hybrid battery rebuild for $2000 and a couple days DIY.
Many EVs are near end of life when the battery has to be replaced. The Tesla model 3 is typical of Teslas, with a $16,000 parts and labor cost (almost all parts. Ioniq is widely variable, with RepairPal estimating about $5500 but isolated $60,000 situations are reported for the Ioniq5 when the failure is from road debris damage.
@@flagmichael did you take the time to read my comment? "Will be" is future tense. Of course the cost of new battery technologies is high...for now. If you weren't so obviously anti-EV, you might be up to date with the developing and breakthrough battery sciences which will inevitably become less expensive than hybrid and ice technologies.
I am in my 70's, and have gotten excited by new battery technology for multiple decades, and other than lithium ion batteries, no new batteries have reached the market or made any impact.
I would love some follow up to these press releases, and explanation for the failure to launch of so many ideas.
Yeh yeh, we hear this 5 times a year and yet.......nothing ever comes to market.
And also cancer and alzheimer treatmets.
The price of batteries has dropped consistently since 2000 while the capacity of batteries have increased consistently since 2000.
It takes two or three years for these announcements to come into production but right now we're benefiting from the announcements to 3 years ago.
Would be a good compliment to the Aptera solar car.
Still weighting for mine :(
The Saudi’s might find it
Sodium ion battery is best option for Stationary storage.
Yes for residential. sand, salt, concrete and carbon blocks may be cheaper for large city/county stationary storage.
Hydro electric pumped storage is the best. The cost per KWH stored is very low.
@@kensmith5694I think he means storage for his house.
@@marcguindon8499 I took the meaning of "stationary" as all stationary.
Battery lifespan not good.
The one thing I have kept saying is that electric vehicles will be the way we go, BUT, our battery tech isn't ready yet. I don't know if is where we need to go or if this is a step towards that but this is great news
Ends coal and nuclear? How we gonna charge the battery? Solar, wind, hydro?
Welcome to Scotland 👍
...there's a game changing, game over technology that converts Viking BS into unlimited energy...stay tuned...
Yes easily
Nope, Unicorn farts and pixie dust! 😂😂😂😊
They are so cheap, you just buy them charged up 😂
Any insight on the extraction of Na+ from something like NaCl? Ion exchange is "promising," so even though Na is very abundant, it's not trivial to extract from a compound.
Who cares, as it is the daily game changer 😂
@@fromgermany271 "Daily"? Are you a Tesla-Q member who thinks EVs are not going to replace ICE? Anyway, there are regular game changers in tech, especially batteries and chips. That's not a totally unreasonable video title and not excessively clickbait. If you think this channel creates too much clickbait, then wander off.
"Both CATL and BYD, major players in the battery industry, announced plans to significantly reduce battery costs in 2024, with a target of achieving a 50% reduction by year's end. This could be a game-changer for the electric vehicle (EV) market." LOL, even Gemini talks of "game-changer."
All I can say is most other chemicals exist in nature as a compound... including lithium. If sodium wasn't easily separated, sodium batteries wouldn't exist. (Heck, our bodies can do it.)
@@marcguindon8499 "Easily" is a question of degree (a relative term). Li is not easy to refine, yet is commercially viable for batteries - why do those batteries exist? H2 fuel cells use Pa and Ir, so, rare and expensive materials are not prohibitive for use in many applications.
Also, I think you are confusing the terms element and ion with "chemicals."
I was just asking a question about the extraction of Na+ to better understand that component of this tech's cost, not to be simple minded and just say, "salt is everywhere." You do know there are emerging processes to more efficiently extract Na+, right?
Lastly, you think comparing an animal/biological process to an industrial one has any real relevance, in this case? Photosynthesis has an efficiency of around 10% and electrolysis of around 60-80%. Clearly it can be done by a living thing, but that doesn't mean it's commercially viable. I can burn oxygen but not as fast as a fire.
"Sure, but where are you going to mine all that sodium?" (*overheard at a TSLAQ party)
70+% of the Earth is covered in liquid Sodium.
Every few weeks there's a 'new' battery tech, based on some hand built prototypes. There is a long step between small batch production and mass production.
Actual new tech appears first in small products (phones, computers, power tools) before working its way into automobiles. That's the place to realistically look for the future.
[The other, and bigger, problem is that fast charging requires very high current charging (no matter how efficient the battery is--that's physics). The infrastructure to massively distribute that level of power (as well as the need to make it safe for ordinary customers to handle daily) is not ready.
Mate, we have had so many game changers. The game hasn't changed. Stop it. Undoubtedly, you would have called it when it does change though. Which it will, eventually, but with which bit of tech?
That comment about -20C in video said it maintains 90% capacity at that temperature. I believe it's as good as current batteries or better, so I don't see anything to worry about.
Just when we were going to be saved by solid state batteries now its sodium. Still waiting for those fantastic chargers that most of the world can't access.
China
CATL, the little-known Chinese battery maker that has the US worried
This article is more than 1 month old
It is the world’s biggest battery maker, it powers electric vehicles for Tesla, Volkswagen and BMW, and its EV technology is miles ahead of US offerings, say experts
They have been researching this chemistry for decades... it still doesn't work reliably...
The progress of Cat is fantastic.
There is so much choice in the EV marketplace that it’s impossible to choose .
The battery prices will probably stay where they are, but the product you buy generates more profit.
@@fromgermany271 No
So choose to buy an I.C.E. hybrid vehicle from Toyota. Toyota, smartly, has many Hybrids with the same model name as their 100% I.C.E. vehicle,.....so....purchase clarity made easy !
@@davidl.howser9707 I already have an EV , just looking to upgrade but not interested in a hybrid .
Solid state battery will be the game changer. Next Es/Ls replacement will have plugin ice hybrid with solid state batteries, will hit the market in 2026, already in test
Yes, batteries will generate all the energy we need... Wait a minute?
Batteries don't generate power
@@jordan0chang But he said by by to coal and nuclear.
California, in the past month or so, has had a few days where their entire grid was powered and sustained via battery storage, completely by renewable energy. This achievement is ahead of schedule but we need to double renewable output and storage by double so as to have enough energy on demand 24/7 365. Have faith, its coming but only because it's cheaper than any fossil fuel method and greed always wins!
@@markapplejohn4376 Good to know. Wonder if this was planned just to show off, or was just a fluke? The fact that it wasn't everyday makes me think it was a political stunt.
@@markapplejohn4376I would agree with you mostly, but it's greed that is holding us back. The political might of oil and gas industry cannot be over stated.
It seems like the losing battery companies tried toi hard to focus on one battery chemistry than putting more time on hybrid synergy.
I get that reducing complexity has value when one chemistry can completely envelope another in all parameters.
However, developing competitive chemistry groups brings a knowledge set you dont get from just one focus.
I can see where the sodium operating in cold temps can help preheat lithium to its optimal state prior to utilizing it's chemistry has its advantages and may take up less real estate and power consumption than other temperature management schemes.
Getting americans to give up their ICE vehicles will be like getting them to give up their guns or get multiple covid shots.
Nope. All it will take is economics. You are comparing giving up CARS, which is closer but also not great to your analogs. Getting the shots was a mistake if one had a choice, but that's a tangent.
@@Mrbfgray I’m speaking as a current Tesla owner who bought one by choice not mandate which is what their trying to do with EV’s and tried and failed to do in many millions of cases with the vaccine’s. Even when an EV becomes cheaper than ICE because they’ve tried to force it on people they don’t even want to look at it even if it’s better in many ways. If a new Covid strain comes out today how many people will get the shot after what we just went through. With the age of misinformation people hate?EV’s, vaccines and believe the earth is flat,
Old will die off.
Youngsters don't want to get dirty with brake reclines, oil changes, sparkplugs, etc to pay for.
Ice is dead man walking.
The horses and buggies went quick enough
@@fergyspoolshots I agree mandates are retarded and counterproductive. But most Americans live hand to mouth and cars are one of the biggest expenses. When they realize they can cut that cost by, say 4X? Yeah they'll switch pretty fast.
Good news for vehicles but surely for home storage the goal is cost over energy density? Just big enough to store a days worth of solar for 48 hours of home energy use.
With this "pie in the sky" story ---> The Viking even got Ye tripp'n yo. 🙄🤣
These batteries are for sale in China, now
@@bru512 Along with many other forms of Chinese Commie propaganda...
You are talking about CATL. Not some new startup.
While on one hand this is pretty much the good news I have been hoping for for decades... there is this one thing. Batteries do energy storage. Not generation. Now let us hope we make good choices building up a renewable energy grid to feed those things. We can do that.
We get -20c here in Massachusetts -4 F . With wind-chill in here we have seen a lot lower!!
Wind chill doesn't count. That's a value that describes how a person will perceive the actual temp.
For example: A bulb of water hanging from a tree when it's 33 f out with a wind chill of 28 won't freeze.
@@dguy321 ask your freezing body which condition it would prefer
@@SV-cg3sk I'm not a battery. The battery feels the actual temp. It doesn't care about windchill. We are talking about batteries after all.
@@dguy321 Im asserting weather patterns in a geographic area, but you seem to want to talk about thermodynamics. Should I just say that my local area goes colder than -4 F? -15 F with no windchill happens once a winter. -40F with windchill.
An object will lose it's thermal energy faster in wind chill conditions.
@@SV-cg3sk so battery range will be more impacted for one day a year on average? Not bad.
Lol 🇨🇦 here. We see -43°C every winter here in norther BC. People do own tesla's but for summer driving only
If you have a garage it doesn't affect you.
Never seen a Tesla in Winter ????
I've seen many Teslas rolling at -40 here.
California?
@@peterjones6322 have you ever heard of Norway. most EV there are Tesla. Norway is so close to north pole just like Canada
Hopefully it is immune to going up in flames.
Old spew, try a new one.
How about heat efficiency? I live in a hot desert.
This game changer battery will be super-ceded by another game changer battery in about 6 hours in Sam’s next video. He gets through them 😅
Thanks again , Sam. Wonder how the cycle life compares with LiFePO4? Guessing it's not so good, so worth CATL producing both.
So, RethinkX was right and based on their research this was predictable, even if not intuitive (which exponential change is not). It's like other tech adoption...mass adoption keeps getting faster. The demise of ICE was inevitable - it's mechanical vs. electric tech, and we know what wins in these cases. Analog computers still exist but they aren't anything more than a blip that's not relevant to 99.999% of people.
An electric motor is still mechanical - as are all the other mechanical parts on a car like wipers, door locks, etc. These things are still going to wear out. And now we have the added complication of batteries that give out. Not cheap to fix. The REAL reason ICE will go away is that oil will eventually run out, or become so scarce that it is too expensive for the average person to buy petrol or diesel.
@@aftonline No, peak oil is a myth, for the time being. It's like the line of dullards who have predicted the end of Moore's law. The US is currently producing more oil than any other country in history. The transition, although accelerated by incentives, will occur for economic reasons - BEV costs are dropping like a stone, while ICE keeps getting more expensive.
A BEV has around 10X fewer parts than an ICE vehicle, and the moving parts in an BEV are open to huge improvements, unlike ICE engines, transmissions, exhausts, etc. Hence, new electric motors with ZERO rare earth magnets.
Battery durability is FUD, with all BEVs in the US having min. 8 year and 100K mile warranties.
"Electric vehicles can claim 15-year warranty as CATL outs million-mile battery with zero degradation in 1000 cycles"
Clueless.
@@aftonline
Peak oil is a myth, there is no supply issue there. The reason ICE cars can't compete with EV tech is because fuel savings combined with near zero maintenance will drive the cost of battery replacement to zero.
@@aftonline No, peak oil is a myth, for the time being. It's like the line of dullards who have predicted the end of Moore's law. The US is currently producing more oil than any other country in history. The transition, although accelerated by incentives, will occur for economic reasons - BEV costs are dropping like a stone, while ICE keeps getting more expensive.
A BEV has around 10X fewer parts than an ICE vehicle, and the moving parts in an BEV are open to huge improvements, unlike ICE engines, transmissions, exhausts, etc. Hence, new electric motors with ZERO rare earth magnets.
Battery durability is FUD, with all BEVs in the US having min. 8 year and 100K mile warranties.
"Electric vehicles can claim 15-year warranty as CATL outs million-mile battery with zero degradation in 1000 cycles"
Ragnor, when they are half the weight and hold twice the power we might see the end of the ICE.