U.S company reveals revolutionary battery that DESTROYS sodium & lithium
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
- U.S company reveals revolutionary battery that DESTROYS sodium & lithium
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#revolution #sodiumbatteries #lithium_ion_battery #destroy
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I notice that in Form Energy's page there not a single actual number, chart or data regarding the physical properties of their "wonder" technology... just pretty graphics, neo-eco babble and vague promises of awesomeness and solving all the energy storage problems of human kind
I'll quote:
"
A Better World
Grid reliability and safety
Local economic development
Improved local air quality
Job creation through manufacturing and assembly "
If that's not a textbook example of corporate PR jargon... :D
My bs alarm isn't ringing... it just made a hole through the roof
There are always trade-offs in the design, build, and scaling-up of systems.
I worked on Li-ion batteries for years and became familiar with the battery industry. I agree with your comment about the claim that the Fe/air battery can be charged for 1/10th the cost of a Li-ion battery. There’s an old adage in the battery industry, “There’s liars, there’s damned liars, then there’s battery salesmen”
Just look at the number of battery vids on yt and your adage becomes a statement of truth.
Was he saying charged, or just cheaper per kWh storage.
@@michaeljames5936
He said charged, but whatever, Fe/air is not a better chemistry than Li-ion
He didn't say charged, he said built at a 1/10 of the cost. Still sounds like bullshit to me.
So True; battery manufactures are like companies that make rockets. They all make outrageous claims about future performance but only a few companies actually do what they say. Having said that I wish them luck in developing the technology.
So you just have a hybrid. You have your Iron Rust for long term storage, and your Sodium and Lithium for instantaneous massive power. You have multiple connections from the Iron Air battery to allow for faster transmission from the Iron Rust to the buffer Lithium and Sodium batteries, which then send the power on.
That then gives you eg a 1GW/10GWh battery, or 10 hours of 1GW power.
Totally agree, lots of people focus on the "ONE" solution, when in fact we have multiple solutions and should use them all in conjunction with each other.
@@LinzDubNZBatteries are first being used to get rid of the filthy fossfuel peakers. The fossfuel baseload power will be replaced by renewables eventually. This basic approach is being done all over the world. It's cheaper.
@@LinzDubNZwhat?? No ....not fumes it's a battery not a stationary engine ya tool
@@LinzDubNZ Maybe you should watch the vid again.
@@John-p7i5g You can add as many connections as you might imagine - but the maximum discharge rate of the 8.5GWh iron/air battery will not exceed 85MW, however you might try! It will not discharge, from full to empty, in less than 100 hours. Simple maths for most to understand.
As an IT guy, the comparison that comes to mind is SSD vs traditional platter disks. Speed vs cost-effective capacity. Both excel at their own specialties and have a place in the system.
As a storage specialist, I kind of agree yet see other shades in there too.
Most energy experts understand the concept in a similar way. There’s literally charts and models showing short-term millisecond dispatchable energy (think Tesla mega packs) all the way up to long-term multi-year dispatchable storage (think closed loop pumped hydro).
Quite frankly, I simply don’t understand how this isn’t obvious to everyone.
As a non-IT guy, I know there's a hierarchy of memory from cache to storage, and I don't know why there isn't something like that for energy (unless there is?).
...or pumped hydro vs Lithium ?
Great analogy.
@@malcolmc7327 Pumped hydro might be like tape backup. Highly specialized, slow but massive capacity. Useful in the right cicumstances
What was the expression?
"IN RUST WE TRUST" 😂😂😂😂
44% Captial Gains - That ought to do it
Rust never sleeps - Neil Young
We are on an amazing improvement curve. The feedback loops and the tools allow for incredibly fast development cycles. Thanks for bringing another example of amazing battery progress.
Yeah nah. 90% of it is hype. My Ebike battery that I bought 10 years ago is about the same size and weight as the one I bought last year. The improvements are just not being seen by the average person.
I’m from New England looking forward to the world’s largest battery to feed our grid. I looked up Form Energy and everything Sam Evens said here was in the article I read.
The reason why New England needs the 100 hour battery is: When a cold spell strikes, and gas runs low, power plants switch to burning oil, which sets back the region’s ambitious commitments to reduce its climate-altering emissions. Oil is much dirtier fuel and produces more carbon.
This Form Energy battery is being installed in Stinking Lincoln, Maine, at the former home of a paper and pulp mill. Maine has one of the highest electric costs in the US. Its grid has major stability issues due to an outdated power plant design and above-ground power lines in densely populated forests. Unlike the Form Energy going up outside Minneapolis, MN, wind is the primary energy storage source. New England natural gas peaker-utility plants have issues running due to low gas pressure during the winter. The first priority for NG is homes, so NG peaker plants sometimes cannot run at full capacity in the winter.
Energy distribution/storage is complicated. This can fill one part and lithium iron another. They can complement each other.
The paper mill you are talking about I seen years ago when the whole factory was still standing. The Maine mindset is so open and honest that the factory had a lock on the gate with the key in the lcck. I was on vacation and took a tour of the whole plant. When I was done I was meet by a policeman who was more interested in my health and safety than the trespassing of the property. We talked for I bet half an hour. He welcomed me to Maine and wished me the best, shook hands and we were both on our ways. What a pleasant memory Viking.
Here is one for you Viking. You can use just sulfuric acid and water to make heat for your house. When concentrated sulfuric acid added to water there is an incredible amount to heat released. Then you use a membrane to make the acid concentrated again. Then the process will start again. Free high heat for just about anything.
I am sure it costs energy to push water through that membrane... otherwise, you would have some form of perpetual motion.
You've discovered a way to get energy from nothing?
Well done!
Should be a Nobel Peace Prize in that for you!
"I seen " is terrible / wrong english ... "i saw is correct"
Its probably the materials needed to make the battery storage components that are 90% cheaper.
the major issue with Iron air batteries is the charge/discharge rate is SLOW. so they are better for long term storage were over a day + they can discharge and then charge as power is available. lithium ion and sodium batteries have a much much quicker charge/discharge rate. So if you have space for a multi day battery for your house then it will work and be cheaper but it has a power limit on discharge and charge rate. so cheaper but larger because you need more to be able to get enough discharge. You will still need quicker charge lithium ion and sodium batteries for rapid charge discharge cycles.
Yes, this is more of a compliment to sodium ion and an alternative to pumped hydro.
Seems like you could have a nice mixture of a battery and generator technologies.
However batteries are still too expensive.
That said, my thousand watt battery that cost me $1,000 can now be supplemented 3 years later with the 2000 watt battery that cost $1,000.
So that means in about 6 years they're going to be cheap enough. Will probably be able to buy 4000 Watts for about $500.
On a related note my 55 inch big screen TV that cost $1,100 a decade ago was replaced by 55 inch big screen TV that cost $350 two years ago. And I was walking through a big box store yesterday and there were 65 inch screens for $298 that were not on a special holiday sale.
Battery packs in this range are not enough to run your house for an entire day but they will save the contents of your refrigerator provide you with internet fans and lighting.
There will still be high value of propane generators for Middle income and lower during disasters for the next decade.
I could see that in a decade most people with their own home will have good solar power generation and people in apartments will have 4,000 watts of battery backed up power for disasters.
For some reason, I don't see this type of battery being used in homes, except as provided by the power company, kinda like having a power substation being deployed in a home, it fries my brain to even think of it. That's what I suppose you meant by "space for a multi day battery for your house."
Okay THAT'S what it is, because I remember that battery swapping program was going to be using the iron air batteries, because you basically weren't really able to recharge them yourself in a feasible manner. For some reason while watching this, I had it in the back of my head that it was a use it once and then you had to get rid of it because it was essentially garbage. But that dings the memory back into my head as to what was truly going on lol, the super slow recharge rate.
They will be charge from the grid so it will be fine, for charge from solar panels with lots of cloud days and snow lithium phosphate are my preferable choice.
this development is what we expect in the wild west of frontier battery development. We have a huge world excess of chemists and physicists. employ a few less money 'managers' and spivs and actually make something. now there's an idea....actually research develop and make.
I wish. But that’s not how economics works.
@@damienpalmer242 Replace the money managers with AI then. :)
Unfortunately any company needs some bean counters in the system. But if you are working on developing new applications or technologies your development staff is far more important. In my opinion any technology company that employs more non technology staff than it's engineers, chemists, physicists and production staff is a non technology PR company.
Iron air battery's round-trip efficiency is only around 50-60% versus 90%+ for Lithium, that is a big downside I think.
It would probably be competitive with low pressure hydrogen with grid scale electrolysers and fuel cells.
It would be excellent during a natural disaster because you would have spent $30 of electricity to charge it and it would provide you with $18 of electricity.
Most homes use about $3 of electricity per day or less.
This is true. The cost of efficiency must be included in the total cost. Still, it's both cheaper to build and more efficient than hydrogen storage.
With peak solar electricity gone begging for a buyer, it's nearly free. If these can be built cheap, and show a long lifespan, I expect them to be integral to grid backup in the future.
@@macmcleod1188 Nonsense, the price of electricity on the wholesale market is volatile. In the last 7 Days in NSW Australia the price max was $450/MWh and the min was negative $44/MWh
This is heavy, but very cost-effective, so ideal for grid application
Cost effective? What is the cost of it, actually?
85GWh capacity on a max 85 MegaWatt system?What's the charging cycle time? Do the math - will it probably takes 7 weeks to fully charge continuously or six months using a 6hour/day solar source?
Also good for home storage systems, plus stuff like heavy equipment which often uses massive lead counterweight balance plates anyway.
Ie those large construction cranes, front end Loaders and dozers earth movers etc.
@@MrVaticanRag Where did you get the 85 Watt system info? They've already deployed a 150mw system that charges 1Mwh. By my math that's 6.25 days to full charge. This is intended for long term duration not quick durations like lithium. PG&E also purchased a 5MW/500Mwh which would charge in 100 hours. It depends on the design.
@@Ryan-ff2db from info provided sorry typo - corrected
I must say your enthusiasm for electric batteries puts a charge in all of us but your enthusiasm is somewhat let's just say over the top. I am an investor and follow stocks. A few years ago I studied a company involved in Solid State batteries. Boy, was this battery HYPED and the company involved in its development was getting glowing reports. I invested a little, not a lot. Guess what , it almost fell into penny stock category. There's a tired expression that kind of fits what you do "Wish in one hand and S..t in the other and see which one fills up first."
Hey Sam, so the duration means very little. So for example take your electric car battery fully charged, leave it in the driveway with the overhead LED light on. Think of how long your battery will last because of such little draw. But the car manufacture doesn’t advertise the battery that way per length of time, it needs a lot of power very quickly to run the motors. I think the industry standard is four hours, then you can define your GW/hr and therefore consumers can compare apples to apples. As for the cost this is probably in relation to two things. Number one as always with manufacturing is scale, the more you can make the less it’ll cost you. The second thing is pretty simple, it’s called the periodic table of elements. Fe is cheap and O2 is free, so yeah 10 X might be true?
I cannot be the only person who hears Gigawatts and automatically has a "Doc Brown" reaction from Back to the Future.
1.21 Jigawatts
Great Scott!
1.21 jumping gigawatts of plutonium bought from a bunch of Libyan terrorists😂🤣
@@michaelfung4629
....Jigga who? (J-Z) 🤣🤭
Me too. Another one is data. It's pronounced "day-tah", not "daa-tuh".
A small pilot project in Minnesota is underway with a larger facility being planned. This battery needs to be paired with a Tesla style battery to be effective. One reacts fast, like a sprinter, the other goes long, like a marathon runner. The battery itself is indeed cheap. But it requires an enclosure to keep the ambient temperature within a narrow range. Plus, it requires a baby sitter 24/7.
Another long term storage battery is the nickel-hydrogen battery made by EnerVenue. It does not require climate control and does not require any regular maintenance. It has an expected life of more than 30 years. Their commercial factory is nearing completion in Kentucky right now.
Iron Rust batteries are as cheap as chips. They just require a lot of space, which the US has in spades.
@@John-p7i5g I do. I have a couple of acres. Easy enough to drop a couple of tons of battery in the side yard.
For most Americans the grid is the only choice.
I predict by the end of the decade that every car will have it's own battery chemistry. 😜
Actually two. They are still likely to have lead acid batteries to run the low voltage stuff.
hahahahah
Finally, we've got some customers for our iron ore.
ION-Air great!! Looking really promising to bring down cost of storing Electricity that will greatly increase the utilisation and lower cost of renewables!!
One tenth the cost probably refers to the battery itself. That would not include the systems around it. With energy density far below Lithium it would require much more work for foundations, ducting, wiring and connections.
Also round trip efficiency is important.
Altogether this is too much information for this comment section. Happy to talk online, if you like.
I be wondering how big and how much energy is lost between charging and discharging ...
Iron is so much cheaper than lithium that even with the infrastructure and undoubtedly ridiculous profit the company will charge, it could still be 1/10 the price.
@@PerpetualMan22 They are only 50 to 60% efficient, not very good.
@@grancitodos7318the efficiency doesn't have to be high when solar panels are so cheap. It needs to be cheap and scalable. If it's 20% the cost you can install double the capacity and double the panels and still come out way way ahead.
I'm next door in New Hampshire, looks like I'm going to have to check this out once they get going.
'Complements' would be a better word than 'destroys'.
Yes, but not good enough clickbait for him 😁
'Complement' would be a better word than Compliment! 😂
@@bubbleboy468 Indeed... I will edit my comment :) thanks.
The clickbait stuff isn't "for him", it's for the algorithm... every channel is required to do it to stay on top of the recommendations. Blame YT and Google
Thank you, Sam. You are my go-to channel for exciting new battery tech.
Good god....
Another awesome episode. I love the new battery content . Perhaps some content on fusion tech' Sam.
There must be a place for sodium batteries in countries in the northern hemisphere simply because they are not so effected by extreme cold. In countries like Finland where I live this will be a game changer for ev’s near the arctic circle ,even if the batteries are a little heavier than their lithium-based alternatives. Am I correct in thinking that sodium based batteries have a place in extreme cold areas?
Altech batteries and Fraunhofer institute…. Massive operating temperature range
Such a simple reaction that I've also thought it would make a good battery. Glad they are seeing applications for it's use and I hope it works out
Iron for energy storage and graphite for heat storage, the future is looking hopeful. Enjoy your work, keep it up.
Yes, thanks
Best ev channel on the web, no click bait no bs...just solid info
"Destroys Sodium and Lithium" Not click bait...riiiiight.
What I haven’t heard you say is what the size/weight to energy storage ratio. Large scale grid batteries don’t have to small, they can be considerably larger, even if the output is lower. Current batteries are principly for cars/trucks. So the story could be true. You won’t be able to use them for cars however.
Sounds like a 2028-2030 timeframe for any significant deliveries. They just broke ground on the first manufacturing facility. It's one thing to get something to work in N=1, something completely different for mass production.
Seems that they stepped-up the revolutionary battery reveal game from once a week to once a day.
Iron is cheap. If they can get the processing costs down, then it's going to win on the basis of raw materials costs.
However I think the power density is pretty low. So it's fine for grid storage in locations where land costs aren't a major factor (rural Maine counts, also rural Australia). But it wouldn't be so good for household storage where power density matters (you want a Tesla Wall not a Tesla Extension, right?).
I disagree that multiday storage doesn't matter- I think it's really handy as a backup system, particularly if you want local storage solutions that don't connect to the grid. Besides there's nothing that says you HAVE to use it as multiday storage, eh? It just adds flexibility.
well it depends. if its 1/10th the cost but i need a shed sized storage device for 25-50kwh ....maybe thats fine in a rural location
Form Energy don't seem to be targeting home usage and seem focussed on large scale battery storage. They are seeking to optimise the role of Lithium in battery storage rather than replace it fully - seeking to lower the cost battery storage and focus the role of Lithium to support peak loads. This would allow Lithium resource to prioritise mobility and portable requirements. The Form Energy battery packs are stackable assemblies to optimise deployment footprint.
The last thing you need is a Tesla Powerwall. They are a ripoff.
@@rogerphelps9939 13.5 kwh for 7500 with an inverter? how is it a bad deal?
@@danielroden9424 You can now buy an EV witth an 80kwh batery for £40k or less. Some of tthem even come with V2G. That is £500 or less per kwh with a car thrown in. Now do you get it?
Sodium would still have a place in a hybrid Lithium-Sodium battery, and for stationary storage where space is limited.
Iron Rust batteries take up a lot of room, because the energy density is so much lower.
However, they can be stacked vertically. And given the price of Iron, they are significantly cheaper per MWh.
Iron-Air has similar theoretical max energy density to Sodium cells (2044 vs 2260wH/kg), but lower than Lithium-Air (11kWh/kg). However, the achieved energy density of aqueus Iron-Air currently offers relatively higher density (~460Wh/kg) than Sodium or the majority of available Lithium-Ion/LFP chemistries. The issue is it has a lower cell voltage (1.3V) vs Lithium (3.2-3.7V) or Sodium (2.3-2.9V) meaning bigger batteries are required that offer lower power density than Sodium or Lithium. Form Energy are seeking to optimise the role of Lithium in battery storage, making BESS lower cost and reduce the Lithium resource required by BESS so it can be prioritised towards mobility and portable needs. Footprint wise Form Energy achieves 3MW/acre vs 30MW/acre of Lithium Storage, however, as you say Form's ability to stack batteries can increase the footprint denisty. Form's solution also has a lower noise footprint, due to lower thermal battery management requirements, so could be integrated into small urban localised needs.
@@GruffSillyGoat Interesting thanks. I didn't realise Sodium was that much lower than Lithium for energy density.
Hybrid’s will be phased out because the Greenie’s have decided to outlaw the combustion engines required in a hybrid. Plus… by 2030 the starting price of an EV will be below $15,000. They are already below $15,000 in China already. China’s largest EV maker, BYD, is currently building a massive factory in Mexico to build EV’s. The labor rate in Mexico is cheaper in Mexico now than it is in China. Plus Mexico has much cheaper import/export duties than China does. Ford, Chevrolet, and Stellantis will ALL REQUIRE taxpayer bailouts to remain in business by the end of 2025.
@@G41251 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity, I will mock when your fear cometh. Proverbs 1; 24-26
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose in that which I delighted not. Isaiah 66;4
May 21, 2011 was the beginning of judgement day on the world - you were WARNED
And it shall come to pass in that day, a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbor. Zechariah 14;13
"Tumult" = disbelief & confusion ...the result is division for the destruction of mankind
Division is worldwide in religions, politics, economics, news, industry, sciences, medicine, sports, entertainment, and even between the sexes.
ie 'deglobalization' The age of delusion is upon mankind - time has an end !
Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. Amos 3;7 { it is written }
spoiler alert: There are over 40 time paths in the bible pointing to 2033 as the 'last day' ( 17th day of 1st month ).
READ THE BOOK ! ... or rather should have, too late now ...curious? Go look up: Ebible2 ( timeline )
Depending on the insertion loss being acceptable, smaller high discharge rate battery or capacitor banks can be charged from the large capacity slow discharge rate ones for availability of needed capacity at high-demand times.
Edit to analogise: It's somewhat akin to having a long term savings bank account, and a short term current account replenished when necessary from that long-term account.
Not capacitors. they are useful only for timescales of a few seconds and have very poor energy density.
@@rogerphelps9939 Fascinating. Best you correct Eaton:
[Supercapacitors can be used alongside energy generation sources to help dampen transient supply behavior from microgrids, address rapid changes in demand, and provide bridging power during rapid rates of demand change or supply drop out for backup situations. These features lead to supercapacitors pairing well with modern microgrid and macrogrid energy source technologies. ]
RED FLAG - your gut feeling is quite correct. The "1/10" of the cost comes from a business presentation in 2022 when they compared the cost of their storage modules at 20$/kWh with lithium-based storage modules at 200$/kWh. As you know the costs for LFP have fallen dramatically over the last two years. At the same time, researchers in Jülich/Germany, who were working on the iron-air-technology, estimated the potential for selling kWh on the energy market at 20%. Again, these are old estimates and we can not know how far the technology has evolved. Back in 2017 they had a stability of 30 cycles. However looking into the VDE report from last year about grid batteries, where they did not know about iron-air but other battery chemistries, then it seems that iron-air could come out at 5c/kWh market price being on the same level as pumped hydrogen power. Whereas LFP have been commercially succesful for peak-shaving application (response time less than a second), the Fe-Air-technology targets load-levelling applications (response time less than an hour) competing with hydrogen-power and redox-flow grid storage (which are mostly based on Vandadium). These technologies have limits how fast you can deploy them - iron-air however can be installed in abundance.
- check out "ETG Task Force Energiespeicher" run by the VDE who have a lot of interesting studies and overview reports.
Flow batteries are now available as drop and plug in 20 or 40 ft. containerised solutions, offering 0.5 to 5MW units. Form Energy's Iron-air battery has a foot print density of 3MW per acre (nearly 140x the footprint), though this may improve with battery container stacking. VRFB looks better for space constained long duration needs, though is costly, Vanadium suffers price volatility, and has toxicity considerations, and relatively low volumetric energy density (25Wh/l). However, if footprint isn't an issue then Iron-air offers better cost scalability than VRFBs, and likely will find a home in large scale grid storage hubs. Hybrid Lithium/VRFBs containers also are available and have been deployed in built-up areas to support Ultrafast EV charging stations.
The most important thing I like about this video is not hearing anything come out of your mouth about U.S. or any other Politics. I hope it stays that way so I can start watching again...
If FE-air is as cheap as it is, it will be a good baseline. We will need other higher output batteries to replace peaker plants in heavy areas. A super cheap steady output though is great and necessary. I can believe the 1/10th the cost as lithium is expensive and rust (i mean iron, lol) is dirt cheap lol. So yeah there will still definitely be a place for other batteries in the grid, this will just be the dependable underappreciated backbone workhorse in the future that every region has, but wont be useful in case of extreme demand.
When you put two metal rods into the ground, a voltage potential exists between them.
If you bury them very deep into the ground and use frequency modulation you obtain higher and higher voltage.
When you raise a higher isolated wire up in the air, a huge voltage potential, like kilovolts per kilometer, is obtained.
One can even design and build a humongous continuous capacitor between Earth and the air around Earth.
Etc.
multi day lasting comes with lower and slower energy output in that case - not sure if that is the needed solution - but maybe a good combo
Hope we can get some in Australia good for home solar 10 000 for a tesla battery 1000 for an iron air
The weak point of renewable energy is grid distribution. Here in the USA our power grid belongs in the early 20th century. The new world of electricity will be based on a decentralized, modular, and battery controlled grid.
That would be a good place to start. Lowell Bergman did a documentary 20 years ago on our power grid. The result was that we need to build a new power station every year for 20 years, we would still not keep up with demand. Maybe if,the democrats would start with upgrading the grid, the electric car industry may have made it. But like all democrats, they put the cart before the horse.
@@davidreed9300
Bergman's documentary was called "Blackout". Yes, we need new sources of electrical generation. What is happening is that large centralized power generating stations are being replace by bidirectional distributed renewable energy. These sources will include "prosumers" (Toffler) as well as large solar, wind, and geothermal sources. "Grid Forming" battery storage nodes will manage the system. No Blackouts.
@@chrisconklin2981 thanks for the info. That’s good to hear. And to my point, is about 30 years behind. In fact, we should be near completion of an entire new grid with expandable nodes. This is all held up by politicians who are more concerned with fighting with each other over a tufted tit-mouse, that putting us towards total energy independence.
@@davidreed9300 I started as an environmentalist and energy activist back in the mid-1970s. We could have solved the climate/energy issue back then. It was orchestrated denialism that shifted public attitudes both back then and more so today. It is not Democrats or government that are the problem. It is the hidden/dark money funding denialism and pseudo science.
@@davidreed9300 I started as an environmentalist and energy activist back in the mid-1970s. We could have solved the climate/energy issue back then. It was orchestrated denialism that shifted public attitudes back then and more so today. It is not Democrats or government that are the problem. It is the hidden/dark money funding denialism and pseudo science.
1:02 biggest biggest, biggest game-changer then 😁
But wait....there's more.😅😅
It is a bit better to think of it as a fuel cell. Part of its chemistry comes from the environment unlike most batteries. This means that a lot of what is needed for operation is not counted in its weight and effectively costs nothing. Iron, also is really cheap stuff so the low price seems likely.
It's more a case of the other way round with fuel-cells being a type of battery system. In this case though it's not a fuel-cell, there is no constant supply of a consumable charge carrier, rather it's more akin to other metal-air battery designs (Zinc-air, Lithium-air, etc.) with some aspects of aqueous alkaline battery designs (similar electrolyte). Some of the early Iron-air cell design incorporated a hydrogen fuel-cell component alongside the Iron-air batteries; the fuel-cell acts as water / electrical generator to recharge the Iron-air batteries from hydrogen stored during the 'rusting' (red iron oxide producing) discharge process. But these fuel-cell based designs are fairly inefficient, due heat loss both in the iron-air battery and fuel-cell. Later iron-air cell designs do away with the fuel-cell component and reduces Iron directly to Iron Hydroxide (green rust) within an aqueous electrolyte that then further reduces onto black iron oxide (magnetite/black rust), releasing electrons at both steps; charging reverses the two steps releasing oxygen.
You could use these to recharge faster battery backups such as lithium storage for fast discharge. This would then be able to collect the excess energy cheaply that then is used to recharge the battery banks that are best able to step in and supply the high demand
This is a pretty legit company and this has been long in development. The numbers are pretty incredible though I think the folks involved here are pretty serious
3X calendar and cycle life is probably the way they figure 1/10th the cost amortized of 50+ years. But the low power density means Sodium Ion or LFP will certainly have a market to meet maximum power demand, as small scale applications like charger, wind and solar farm buffering. These Iron batteries have higher upfront cost especially for short duration.
I appreciate his highlighting, in the midst of his excitement, that we really don’t know how scalable stuff is or what the future has in store.
We have load management to help with some of the concerns expressed here. For example, our at home electric car charger is disabled during the evening peak period. To compensate for the minuscule inconvenience on when we charge, we pay a lower rate for the electricity used to charge the car. We have a similar arrangement with our electric water heater.
no one said that these batteries could not be used in conjunction with sodium or lithium to get the bump in demand needed where the air iron cannot deliver enough base load. I believe this hybrid platform would work and be super efficient.
1/10 the cost. Make it ten times larger to handle the 6pm high demand drain as its normal load. Keep it charged with wind and solar. Let that combo configuration be the entire grid supply. Multiday is necessary and logical with grid supply replacement instead of supplementation That's how you would configure an off-grid house.
Biggest battery? I don't know. Big is size is volume. More volume is great for static batteries. Energy density, capacity, charge/discharge speeds, minimum amount of charge-cycles and costs... that's what is interesting. Now if we can get those things in subterranean car parks, that would be great.
Iron is hundreds a ton. This definately has the potential to blow storage competitors away. Industrial users that currently pay an 80% extra demand chatge. This has the potential to flatten that demand curve as well as open up negotiated price structure using time of day rate utilization. If s 24/7 industry can disconnect from the grid during g peak demand evening hours, just imagine the shared savings for both industry and poer company.
It's not worth having an amazing battery if you're dead from lack of sodium and lithium in your body. So we need to stop these people!!
This is a joke right? Lithium has no biological function except for psychiatric drugs, and sodium is the 6th most abundant element in/on the Earth's crust (and oceans).
It might be too large and heavy for single house solar system. Maybe it would be good with a LFP battery as a buffer for peak energy times.
If it needs to be very large for being able to take enough charge, it might need like 1 days buffer, that can charge iron battery in night and iron battery can charge LFP so that the evening peak power is satisfied even in very cloudy day.
I missed the numbers, but it sounded like with 20 kW solar panels the iron air battery would be huge. Add small LFP as buffer, and charge each night large battery slowly, and keep LFP about 20 to 30% SOH in morning to accept more solar energy.
A really large scale battery can be huge, add solar panels on the roof, and get a self charging power bank. But on house garden a sea container size battery would be unpractical.
Depends on how your costs are expressed. It is an almost 100% capital cost project. If you amortize that over charge cycles, which is reasonable, a significant part of the cost per cycle savings would be available from increasing the cycles per unit lifetime. This would be the same as amortizing the capital cost of a car over the vehicle-km in its lifetime. That is how you get the $/km cost, that includes operational costs like fuel and assumed driver costs.
I agree with the BS meter on some of these claims.
But, Sam said that an iron air battery is currently being installed in the state of Maine in the US. If they are actually installing this behemoth battery, they’ve had some successful tests. So, we will see within a year or two whether Sam’s optimism or your skepticism will be correct. Either way, the pace of battery development in the last 15 years has been amazing. And given that many times more scientists and engineers are working on battery innovation right now than ever worked on other big human projects, the Manhattan Project, Apollo, we will continue to see better and better batteries hit the market.
At the moment Li-ion/Na-ion is for balancing the network, because it can respond instantaneously to demand and supply changes. Fe-air, compressed CO2, compressed air, pumped hydro are for longer term storage, when you know you won't need that energy for the next 2-4 hours. For instant fluctuations, Li-ion is still better, because it can simulate an actual rotating power plant with a flywheel that's very stable 50 or 60 Hz.
I think you may have misunderstood, they said charged service costs, not manufacturing or installation.
So the main limitation is max current output/kwh meaning a much larger capacity is required for a certain application. Oxidation isn't a fast process.
Oxy cutting isnt that bad for what they have to do - I wouldnt want to cut 2inch thick plate with an angle grinder - though am sure they're not using 100% oxygen!
Just an FYI.
8.5 GWH of power storage equals 4 hours and 8 minutes of NY's Late, Great, Indian Point Nuclear power plant.
So to store enough power to replace Indian Point, you'd need somewhere between 25.5 GWH to 51 GWH of power storage or maybe more.
I get your point but you are completely mixing up storing and generating. The concept is that you are busy generating plenty of electricity using solar and wind but with them - unlike nuclear - you need to add storage. For example to cope with night time.
@@CheeseLovingGuy I'm not mixing them up, I'm making the point that Nuclear is infinitely superior to wind, solar and other "renewable" forms of energy.
New York Greens shut down Indian Point and we replaced it will gas fired plants.
The Best Energy is Nuclear, Period. No batteries required.
The solution to the relatively low energy deployment is to combine this Mega storage with a smaller battery with much higher output like sodium or LFP.
Curtailment just means you need to deploy more EVs and Heat Pumps. It is the solution to the other half of the electrification equation.
Exactly! One of the things we did when we installed solar was to put a timer on our well pump. The well pump only fills our water storage tanks during daylight hours. We also only run the clothes and dishwashers when our solar panels are producing power. Municipalities and industries will make a similar switch, and run energy intensive processes when energy is inexpensive.
You can certainly understand why they might cost significantly less than other battery technologies given what they’re constructed of no rarer metals no lithium, no cobalt, etc. if primary component is iron, that is quite abundant.
The high cost savings could be achievable if they ramp up production and the fact that their long life cycle into a reduction of total life cycle cost. Additionally, they may be measuring cost by output or Kwh. It still sounds like an interesting technical application.
Probably very slow charge and discharge rate, compared against Li battery technology. However, within its identified space, high rates are not needed, just high volume at low prices. But if the rate is low per pack and you have 10k packs, then that equates to high enough charge/discharge rates. PS Outside Australia, we do get bad weather days/weeks, so a multi-day battery is viable, even if simply by adding more packs.
11:55 Sam, Tony Seba states in his “the great transformation - TAQA 20th anniversary celebration / Dhahran” video at 20:43 - He states you need 3 to 5 days of battery storage based on your geographic location.
Iron air batteries lack the energy density to ever make sense in vehicles. However, for stationary storage, they are cheap as dirt and practically infinite cycles. Not destroy LI batteries, but make more sense in large stationary installations.
Can this be open construction? Like, you have a steel ship, and it rusts along as it sails, once it is docked you attach its input to harbor power lines, and it is reduced/recharged rust-less?
Interesting possibility that I will wait to see if they can scale production enough for a 10X cost advantage. Also any battery technology can be a multi day battery. If any battery is dispensing power at a low enough rate compared to the capacity of the battery, it could provide power for days. Just think of the things in your house (say door sensors or smoke alarms) that are continuously powered and the battery lasts for multiple years!
I wrote this right before getting to the part in the video where Sam addresses this!:
What's the C-rate? I can't imagine this can put out much power, so would only work in applications where it does in fact need many days of storage just to have a big enough battery to put out the power required. But if it is 1/10th cost, then maybe it would be worth having a battery with far more storage than you really need, as it could bring down the amount of "extra" solar and wind that is needed (eg instead of planning for 3-5X the solar needed to cover demand on cloudy days, that could be cut down to 2-3X)
IF Solar, Wind, Thermal or Wave energy generation is the future...
THIS WILL BE ESSENTIAL TO THEIR FUTURE!
Hopeful in this product and technology.
If I may, I would like to plug a book I read a few years ago, and this comment thread brought it to mind.
The book is called Internal Combustion. The author is Edwin Black. In the early chapters he writes about the early 20th century electric cars, and the scams within the battery industry that helped to destroy it, leading to the triumph of the internal combustion engine.
We have bigger fish to fry than solving the rare problem of needing multi day storage, we first need to drastically cut down our dependance on the daily use of gas peaker plants, but long term storage is problem we'll need to olve sometime so it's good that omeone is building a demonstrator project, just don't think we'll be building them everywhere for quite a few years.
It sounds to be in a similar situation as the Zinc Bromide batteries that were being touted a while ago. Hopefully the tech actually starts working soon.
Also, the number of days of storage is not the capacity, but takes into account other practicalities, like efficiency and power capability. The Limiting Factor did a nice video about it called: "How Grid Storage Duration is Assessed and Why it Matters".
Even if it is too slow, you can simply combine it with a faster, more expensive battery to balance capacity, cost, and speed.
The clue is in the battery specification. 8,500 MW hours at 85 MW discharge would give you 100 hours of supply, roughly 4 days. That basically says that it's discharge rate is 0.01C, which says that not only is this battery good for multi-day storage and discharge, but really that it is only good for multi-day discharge and storage. And the only way you can have multi-day storage is to make the storage extremely cheap.
Although it's always claimed that lithium batteries, of any flavour, are only good for storage periods of up to a few hours, this has nothing to do with the battery performance/chemistry it's about the economics.
To take a slightly extreme example, you could use lithium batteries for seasonal storage to store surplus solar in the summer to use in the winter, cycling at the batteries once per year. If your storage cost you $100/KWh and you expect a return on your investment in 10 years, that would be 10 Charge Cycles to recoup your $100 meaning you would have to charge $10/KWh just to cover your costs, plus you've got cost of; finance, O&M and profit to add.
Conversely, if you wanted to use an iron battery for domestic backup and your peak demand was 10KW for 2 hours, you would need a thousand kilowatt hour iron battery, which at 1/10 the price of lithium would cost you the equivalent of 100 kilowatt hour battery when all you actually need is a 20 kilowatt hour battery, again the economics don't work out.
I don't think they say what the charge/discharge efficiency is. If it's only, say, 65% then we would need about 50% more solar or wind than with LFP or Na-ion, assuming They are 95% efficient. Bu then again, just as I always thought about hydrogen, it's better than no long term storage.
Another problem, though is "how many watt hours are needed to make a watt hour of the battery" (or gigawatt hours per gigawatt hour of capacity). If the efficiency is low, then that doesn't add up - unless of course, they last "forever".
I like the giantiron air battery, hope they have a plan and financing in place for decomissioning this power plant….
This iis a base-load technology. If it is twinned with a Lithium/ion megapack the Li could deliver peak load and the iron/air re-fill it as needed.
This is not base-load anything. Base-load plants are power plants that continuously run at 100% power for long, long times. Nuclear power plants are the epitome of base-load. Batteries, any batteries, are storage devices; not only are they not base-loads, they aren't energy producers of any kind.
Three issues:
a) We don't know the efficiency, so if it is only 70% or so which is quite possible, it won't get much market in the short term peaking market.
b) Almost by definition a multi-day battery can have less than 50-80 full cycles/y vs 200-400 full cycles on a one hour battery.
c) Neither air or iron is perfectly pure so there will be gradual formation of non-reversible sulphides, carbides, thus slowly degrading capacity and probably efficiency
Combining these disadvantages means that it will probably remain a niche product paid for by governments to provide the last 0.1% of backup in natural disasters
Round trip efficiency is another important factor and if it is only 50 to 60% as opposed to lithiums 90 + % then that is a big problem.
OK if you have plentty of renewable energy hat would ottherwise be wasted. The output of these batteriescwill attract achigh price premium when currentt generation is insufficient. That is how pumped storage makes a profit in spite of 75 to 80% efficiency.
As with IT, could have a chain of high performance tech working down to cheaper high capacity. CPU cache > RAM > SSD > Hard Disk > Tape. With batteries have a decent LFP battery to dis/charge quick for power spikes, then this to dis/charge slower and keep LFP charging as much as possible. Alternative off-grid multi-day store would be a generator. Could be great for wintery multi-day bad weather if a reasonable price. Could be great for off-grid cameras, Starlink, etc where the pain is multi-day bad weather.
The comparator here would be the vanadium redox flow battery. The largest one presently operating is 100 MW, at the Ronke plant in Dalian, Liaoning, China. The storage is only 0.4 GWh. However, storage can be scaled to any required level simply by building extra holding tanks for the liquid electrolyte.
I hear about a lot of battery technologies and then I don't hear about them again. I'm glad that this one has popped back up.
Go Sam, excellent presentation, hopefully, this battery will be soon on Amazon, I'd take a bunch !
They're slow, heavy, and large in comparison to li-ion, but that just means the two compliment each other. Li-ion can be used to quickly follow load hour to hour. They can also be used in electric vehicles. Whereas iron-air can be used for more long term grid supply, for example, when there are multiple days of low wind or solar conditions.
A new revolutionary battery that changes everything? Finally! That's what we were all waiting for. I wonder why it took so long.
I'm not surprised since these things are more competitive the more you scale them up
To be honest, 85 MW of max power output is not very high. Gas plants (that gives fast stabilization of the grid) come with power outputs like 200, 400 MW.
Fossil fueled power plants also practice containment as well. They just don't talk about it. Also, it is why they have peaker plants.
Wow! Everything has changed - my feet have turned into flippers!
The key word is received funding. Ha ha ha. 50% goes to management expenses, 40% to research equipment and 10% to the workers.
Then nothing happens.
Why can't mobile phone companies benefit even one iota from any of this Advanced battery technology?
That is a very different use case. Small devices cannot have cooling solutions and need the lightest, smallest batteries...
It's heavy and low energy density. Not suitable at all for portable applications.
because your mobile phone would be 3kg heavy
12:24 Funny to see kitchenware plastic boxes in that high tech lab. :)
Just as a quick reference: An average American home uses about 1,000,000 1,500,000 watts a month. Or around .032 watts a second average.
I agree with you - if it really is 1/10th the price of lithium batteries, then living off-grid becomes extremely more affordable and many things in society will change for the better - but I am also skeptical.
Iron/Air who would've thought it. Great to see new combinations coming out from ongoing research!
2% - 4% of world's population lives in regions in the North where solar will never be enough around the year, and where there can be periods in winter/cold time with no wind. The described "rust battery" with relatively "low" power output would serve the Northern regions quite well if the building cost per MWh is low enough. Something like that - high storage capacity low cost battery - will be needed by the North. This is like 10x Australia's population.