@@amiigose I don't want her to work and live in China. Her talent should be used in a better place. The academic environment in the United States is the best. China is not a good place to do research, where she will only be gradually infiltrated by corruption.
Prof. Meng counselled me when I was a Masters student at UCSD. She was gracious enough to talk to me for over 30-40 minutes one evening and was a factor in me deciding to not try to pursue a Masters or PhD thesis and go straight for my goal of working in the industry (now working in Process Development at Intel for 7 years). I definitely would have been miserable and wasted time at the university on a thesis (not a diss, it's just not for me).
Great interview Jordan. Shirley Meng is such a great person. So, if we are only 2% along the way, then battery production will double 6 times over the next 20 years. Applying Wrights Law means battery prices will come down 70% over that time to about $30US per KW. This is incredibly deflationary. A 10kw home battery will only have $300US of batteries in it. A 60 kw car only $1800US of batteries. When home batteries come down just 40% it will be much cheaper to be off grid than on it. That is incredibly disruptive. And as far as cars go, at a personal level, we just replaced a Mazda CX5 with a Tesla Model Y. It Cost $70k Australian(AUD) and we have a deal with our grid provider to charge it at 8 cents(AUD) per kw plus we have solar that works out at about 5 cents (AUD) per kw. Although tires and insurance is higher than the CX5 that cancels itself out with lower servicing costs. In the end we will genuinely save $3,000 (AUD) per year on fuel. Over 10 years that's $30k(AUD). Now that $70k car looks like a $40k(AUD) car except the Model Y is a far better car than the CX5 which costs $50k(AUD). So even with todays battery prices significant deflation has occurred. I hope I live long enough to see a world with $30 kw batteries.
She is! As for the rest, good points and thanks for sharing 🤠. I really want to see batteries 50%+ cheaper or more. That's where they going from being a nice replacement to hugely dominant and unlocking ultra cheap energy.
I appreciate what you are trying to do in your post, but capacity is only one facet of a battery. The back of the napkin math you are using is extremely unlikely to be realistic. I mean, extremely. It’s fanciful, it’s optimistic, it’s a lot of things. What it isn’t is reference quality info. Every chemistry needs its own processes and accompanying logistics. Don’t forget, industry is human.
@@artysanmobile Just follow Tony Seba and you will get the picture. Home batteries and electric cars will end up just low profit commodities. Good examples are solar panels, flat screen TVs, colour printing etc. History is littered with deflated new innovations. The first refrigerator my parents bought cost the same as a block of land in the 1950s. It is not just scaling that reduces the price though it is competition to come up with new technology to get the jump on the opposition. CATL have announced big battery discount prices already this year and Tesla is aiming for $45 per kw with the 4680s. Lithium prices are plummeting as sodium looks a real threat. I am absolutely positive a $30 or equivalent price related to inflation will occur.
@@thelimitingfactorthere's a UK group based at the university of Cheshire that have developed a ceramic based Na cell that's insulated by a vacuum .. It uses ordinary food grade salt... and Cheshire is built on mountains of Halite... rock salt. There cell is designed for long term storage both in terms of life spans and holding on to a charge ... Without losses...designing it to work at a higher temperature makes it safer and more stable ... The vacuum insulation enables it to hold on to the temp advantage generated in cycling. Northvolts Na Ion cell is 1,600KWhr per Kg which is on a par with some Li phosphate cells. It's based on a Prussian blue chemistry and is a sachet type. There's one mineral all the Li tech depends on that is required is Fluorite. Sometimes called the quiet or secret one. 🤔 The impact of AI on sorting the wheat from the battery elemental Chaff ....it saved decades of experimentation. Reducing a choice of thousands down to a short list of 20-30 candidates.. The next step is pairings and arrangements... Na Li Al and Sulpher all offer significant break outs.
What a coincidence, my friend is going to study under Shirley Meng. He turned down MIT for the opportunity, which shows how good Shirley Meng must be in her field
Another great interview Jordan. Shirley is so good to spend some of her time to be interviewed, so we all can benefit from her insight into battery chemistry development. Your questions were great, and Shirley provided insightful and understandable answers. I am excited about the possibilities for Na-ion batteries in the near term for entry level cars. After seeing this, I am also excited about the long term prospects for Na-ion, maybe including solid state anode-free someday.
As an off grid solar/wind power installer, we no longer use lead acid but have transitioned to Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. Looking forward to progress on Sodium batteries! Art Toy, Lawrence, Michigan. BS/MS Chemistry, UCLA.
This is a timely interview, and it's so cool to listen to Shirley Meng talk about her research and share her insights on Sodium-Ion and Lithium-Ion Batteries. As she said, she and others have been researching them for a while. And it is now about putting the effort and energy into making them. I like her comment too that she is a scientist (she sees their value), it is good to dream a little. Agree, thanks so much, Mark 😊
I enjoyed this interview very much. It was so refreshing to hear a serious scientific/technical discussion unmarred by hype. My undergraduate degree is in physics.
Thanks a lot Jordan for bringing a very interesting video with many useful information about Sodium ion battery. Your interview videos with Prof. Shirley Meng always provide a strong motivation for a battery researcher like me. Keep it up!
Great content. Dispensing this level of technical information is not easy. This gives a deep understanding of feasibility of hyper fast charging. These charge times literally can be as fast or faster than filling a tank of gas. Which I think is the true barrier to fast consumer adoption . Thanks for this wonderful content!
Great content? Agreed! ❤ Prof. Meng is recognized as a Distinguished Scientist. She needs acclaim as a brilliant educator. Thanks to Jordan for giving us this access to her genius 😊
@@Ironic1950 This was not about achieving fast charging via high kw rates. But via batteries that can more efficiently take in energy . I think you missed the whole point of the technology.
While you didn't ask about fire risk, safety was mentioned and a graphic indicated that sodium ion chemistries (solid state or liquid electrolyte) are non-flammable, so that was effectively answered for those paying close-enough attention. What I think was completely missing was any discussion about cycle life of cells. High charge/discharge rates are great and solve much of lithium's comparative deficiencies with respect to charging rates and power delivery, cycle life is hugely important to the viability of a battery chemistry. Even with cheaper materials, replacing a giant car battery is going to be expensive, so cycle life is critical.
What a wonderful and detailed techinal discussion - Shirley is amazing. Her knowledge of the markets, the production methods and supply chain complexities, is truly enlightening. Thank you Jordan!
Shirley is such a boss. Tesla should definitely have a Sodium Ion program. I love the sound of solid state sodium and how the cost of sodium is an advantage and not an issue, that's amazing.
Thanks for the great interview! I think that the better charging times are a key advantage for sodium ion batteries. Being able to charge your car in 5-10 Minutes is a lot better than doing it in 2-3 factor in time.
Great video, as usual, Jordan.. I think that the Na sourcing ease in USA is not a huge advantage, rather a small one. This is because NaOH or Na2CO3 are so dirt cheap that no one really cares. I got so excited about the potential of anode free Na batteries.
Although some of this content is well over my head when it comes to Chemistry's, I found this to be a very well balanced interview and very informative.
Thats was a very interesting video. Shirley is very convinced that Solid State Li-Ion will work. Pushing for the long term view. She is right. When correct on Sodium Ion, at minimum one mass manufactured vehicle is using Li-Ion (BYD) already now? For stationary storage it should be already now be very interesting. What has not been discussed how deep prices can go down? When remembering correct, low temperature (range) is an issue. And cycle life. Looking forward to the next video with the two of you.
Glad to hear it! Yes, a few companies are working on ultra cheap short range sodium ion vehicles in china. I did a video already on how cheap sodium ion will get and for what versions, etc... published end of september and with a Cybertruck on the thumbnail. Roadmaps.
Dang… I feel smarter after watching this. Chemistry is not one of my favorite subjects but this topic in particular is becoming more fascinating than I expected. Now to rewatch a previous video now that my brain is warmed up.
Great interview! I was confused by Shirley's comments about graphite anodes. She mentioned that with a different solvent sodium could intercalate into graphite, but then when she talked about what anode she was researching to use instead of hard carbon, she didn't mention graphite. So I'm not clear on whether graphite could be used as the anode for a sodium ion battery or not.
Jordan Interesting discussion on the "Everything electric show" channel last month regerding the UK company LiNa who (strangely, zero Lithium, considering the name) have a Solid State Sodium cell designed for long term storage, I believe ready to "leave the lab" . Not particularly high on technical detail, but worth a watch.
Use silicon aluminum intermetallic in a graphite matrix for the anode and iron nickel oxide stabilized with a dash of manganese, magnesium, aluminum and zinc in a copper graphite matrix as the cathode.
Excellent interview and discussion, Jordan and Dr. Meng! I submit that we don't have until 2050 to address our climate challenges. In fact, we might not have until 2030 to make large inroads into the problems we face.
Sure thing! All is not lost. The massive feedback events remain low odds. If we continue on this compounding growth trajectory, we'll be in a good place to avoid the worst effects of climate change.
@@thelimitingfactor The problem being, it takes one politician, in the right place, at the right time, with the wrong .... "understanding" (and or motives) to change both perception and time of execution. . If this applies to certain countries, the implications for those countries and in some cases the rest of the world could (will?) be... "Worrying". (We're talking aggressive conflict, both internal and external, systemic "adjustment" [monetary] and general social adjustments) . Interesting times?
Professor Meng is absolutely correct. The reason why the US is falling behind is because the US is too busy trying to use road blocks to slow the competition rather than pushing ahead with focused development of technologies at high rate. Tesla and SpaceX are showing the way for all companies in how this works. Time for a paradigm shift in the Western World in how we develop and apply technologies thus bolstering industry.
Re: Sodium SS Development. Prof Meng is our "Ruth" knocking it out of the park! But, 2-3 years out still for us! Where's our DoE? Ok, I guess 2045 is soon enough for this scale of (15-20C🙄😅😎🤑) breakthrough. "Game is on!" Hard carbon "Tangled Up In Blue." (Needed a refresher on intercalation.) 100T-based Megapacks? Yeah, we can spell them a few years & $s! "Believe in destiny!"
You have to be in the game to win the game. . If you keep complaining about "who owns the ball" you're not going to going to be playing, let alone winning. . Now consider that this is the biggest "game" every played (yes, bigger that oil) and as such provides the greatest opportunity to "win" (if thats the ultimate aim) over the next 4- 5 decades....... . It SHOULD be a simple choice?
good job ,i am a sodium ion battery engneering in chinese company called Zonergy. I am very concerned about current work on sodium batteries because they are early pioneers
@@mojay007 I think sodium ion batteries first replaced lead-acid batteries in the market, that is, low-speed vehicles and large-scale energy storage. It can complement the advantages of lithium ion batteries.
A situation which will leave some on "the wrong side of history". Also be careful regarding those with "a big stick" using said stick to maintain dominance. (Read between the lines) . "Interesting times" ahead?
Not only politicised, but US power structure is heavily dominated by fossil interests for short term gain. Hence also hydrogen - a physical product that can be shipped, like coal. We have no vision, "grandfather" old ways, legacy business.
Unlike Otto von Bismarck’s definition, MY definition of Politics is “The Art of Spending Someone Else’s Money”. . . and, perhaps, taking a cut. This form of politics takes place at every level, from the local Homeowners Association to the highest levels of Government.
@@FrunkensteinVonZipperneck CO2 levels from a gas burner in your kitchen, a real thing according to science, has been politicized. Doesn't matter if the CO2 meter says it's high, doesn't matter if that causes ill effects! I don't believe it cause I am on the opposite political side of that!
Thanks so much for the interview. I understand the need for patience in the development of better sodium batteries. But so much of the buzz that drives investment in new technologies comes from seeing workable solutions in the near-term. Companies like CATL and HINA in China are showing plans to build Gen 1 sodium battery powered cars this year. California based sodium battery producers like Natron are taking advantage of the long life and fast charge/discharge attributes of sodium batteries for use in data centers. Even though fixed storage is a good fit for Gen 1 sodium batteries, American sodium battery producers should team up with advanced EV producers like Aptera, who will soon be building their super efficient EVs that only use 100Wh/mile (plus onboard solar assist) which should be able to drive 250 miles from a relatively small 20kWh sodium ion battery pack.
@@thelimitingfactor Not a counterpoint. Your videos are always well researched and informative. And it was a great interview with Shirley Meng. My only added points are that the research community is looking to set out plans for today and far into the future. But the internet audiences and potential investors focus on promising battery technologies in terms of what is exciting and usable today, and in the next 2-5 years.
There's a general misconception that vehicle batteries have to be "the best" plus, that they must provide the highest performance in all respects (density, range, and charging) . I think we need to refine the requirement as "To fit the performance parameters of the vehicle" . Small enough pack, to provide "sufficent" capacity to outrange the occupants (the metric which few understand!), and fast enough charging to repeat the process. . Solid State Sodium may well be the winner in that respect. . "Must have maximum" needs to go away. .
Being able to charge quickly more than makes up for the lower energy density once we have the charging infrastructure. That infrastructure is coming along and will make a 250 mile range more than enough for 90% of markets so sodium ion will come along at just the right time. Rural places like Canada will need longer ranges but even there it will be doable with the right charging behaviour.
Yeah, if it only takes 5min to charge and you get 200 miles per charge. That would be comparable with the gas cars. Could be a game changer if the salt is worth its salt and delivers.
I just cannot fathom the optimism that some people show for hydrogen. It seems entirely too prone to escape, too energy intensive to make, store, and transport, and it seems to continue our dependence on liquified natural gas which we should be running away from, not expanding as we are currently doing.
Rule#1 for the next decade should be . When you've spent Billions collecting the energy, use *ALL* the energy *as efficiently as possible* . Once that "sinks in" it *should be a "no brainer" to arrive at: 1) Green supply (I think "renewable" is a misnomer) . 2) Storage (where required) in a passive, benign fashion. . 3) Maintain the general state/ form of the energy to maximise the efficiency. ("Electricity" stays as electricity) . There's only 1 general concept which fulfills the requirements (imo) . Wind/ Solar To "Battery" (Pick your basic concept, most have merit) To End use. . EDIT. . This may actually be "Rule #2", with Rule 1 remaining as "Don't eat yellow snow"... . But both as obvious. 😉
What implications does this have for charging? If Gen4 Supercharger is 350 kW, what would make sense for sodium ion if it is 15C? From 70% to 100% how many kW could it sustain? Can it charge to 100% no worries like LFP? What is the degradation profile?
Good questions! Bear in mind for all these answers that much like Lithium Ion batteries include a range of chemistries like LFP and NMC, the same is true for sodium ion batteries. That is, some will be more or less power or energy dense or have worse or better cycle life. I still need to a deep dive on all of this. These are my initial impressions: 1) I believe when Shirley suggests charging in the mid-single-digit minute range, she means 0-100%. Hopefully she'll jump in here if I'm incorrect. However, I don't think the first sodium ion batteries will have that kind of performance based on what I've seen advertised so far. 2) The c-rate will be dependent on the pack size. For a 50kW battery at 350 kW, that would be a 7C rate, or 8.5 minute charge. That is, even with a small pack, the supercharger becomes the rate limiting factor for charging. You'd need 500kW to hit a 10C or 6 minute charge. That is, at sub-10 minute charging, it's really not about the battery anymore, but the charger. That's especially true as you move to more standard pack sizes that are on average more like 75kWh. 750kW is required for a 10C or 6 minutes charge. 3) Note that I'm bypassing the question about 70-100% charge speed and focusing on 0-100%. That's because the only way for sodium ion to make up for it's poor volumetric energy density is to be able to rapidly charge from 0-100%. But, I think that's what you were getting at. 4) So, all things considered, the implication is that charging speeds with sodium ion batteries could be 2-3 times faster for a given amount of range than a typical Tesla vehicle. BUT, I don't expect Tesla to start using sodium ion until the 2030s for vehicles because sodium ion needs to build scale and increase energy density. Once we see sodium ion in Tesla grid storage, which is also likely years away, I expect it to eventually follow in vehicles a few years after that. 5) Yes, many sodium ion chemstries are 'stable' at 100%. 100% charging for any battery causes degradation, including LFP. But, more stable relative to NMC/NCA. 6) But, interestingly, sodium ion should be more stable than any lithium ion battery at 0% state of charge because of the voltage and degradation dynamics between the hard carbon anode and aluminum current collector. They can actually be stored at 0 volts (deliberate short). 7) Degradation depends on the cathode structure. But, the range I've seen is typically between 2-5k cycles, so better than the average high nickel cathode and can be comparable to LFP.
Single digit minute charging sounds dystopic. Instead of walking to the deli next door for a Reuben sandwich and a pee, I'd have to stand by the charger like when I had to stand by a gas pump, then drive over to the deli, wasting time. I understand that two production short range Chinese EVs use sodium ion batteries already. (Urban runabouts). Why is America not even able to do grid storage with sodium ion? What's holding it back? It'd be interesting hearing optimal charging for LFP, for battery life.
I had heard good things about sodium ion before. Seems it would be a good complementary tech, specially for static storage, and who knows if it will also be good enough for cars as well, but for now I see it as a good option for large scale static storage, given the challenges in energy density it still has to overcome. One thing is certain, given that scale has to grow to such high numbers (TWh) sodium ion is indeed a very important tech and will be very helpful to achieve those goals.
Fantastic interview Jordan. So a quick consideration : if the C rate is so high, it might be possible to have a low Kwh battery car and charge up fast (assuming the charging infrastructure can keep up with the 10C+ rate). For example a 30kwh battery (say 150-200miles range) could recharge in a few minutes. Isn't that approaching the refueling experience with gas?
This was exactly the sort of wonderfully indepth information I was looking for on this technology. **I do have one burning question** that pertains to what almost felt a bit glossed over in importance level. Especially as the technology comes to mass market in it's first generation form. What might the charge rate of the initial generation(s) cells be? I heard 15c and under 10 minutes. If first generation cells are anywhere near that rate..well..it's kind of a big deal..and depending on application this alone can REALLY offset volumetric energy density. When Charging capability becomes that fast..capacity becomes far less important in many applications right?
Yeah, initial generations are comparable to LFP, or a little better. I need to do a deep dive on this. I think people want both more capacity and faster charging speeds. Well, at least people that don't have EVs yet. For me, the current range and charging speed does the trick.
@@thelimitingfactor Yes, we always want it all ofc! I just feel the difference between really long arc development to be useful outside very specific applications and an vastly accelerated one. Could easily hinge on such a feature *If indeed it is a true possibility to charge that quickly*. Anywhere near that sort of charge rate...demand will happen and development will acellerate IMO. Even despite the foreseeable future hidden premiums over Li. Such as probable need to redesign circuits for the discharge curve Curve I've seen for instance. Good stuff tho.
While everything is application specific.I ¿think? with this particular battery technology it would be wise to take a large, Application decided✅,square one, I'm ground up designing and selecting components as I engineer a solution. The first thing that hits me is ⚡Power⚡ what do I need to expect on my input voltage lines? My gut tells me if one looks...designing the system with an operating voltage range a bit extended now that miltiplies per cell ...isn't free I'll call it.
@ 20:00, Meng got it right. USA wants a fast-buck, a big return for its investment- within 3 years. China, Japan, and S Korea investors look to the long term, 10 years. Finally, as Meng so eloquently said, USA constantly makes much noise as to what China is doing instead of focusing on what USA can do best. What Meng is not telling you: USA has lost the EV battery race. US arrogance, bull-headness, nationalism, and greed have doomed US in many technology field. US capitulation of Lithium and Sodium battery developments to China is just the tip of the iceberg.
5 min charging to 250km + cheapest battery is going to be game changer for countries like india. (Drastic change in ev policy came in india to support sustainable future.)
Combined with solar, sodium ion batteries have real possibility to solve many environmental problems. I would like to hear more about reclamations of resources as compared to lithium.
Bearing in mind the difference in physical properties of the base elements, is it possible that Solid State Sodium cells may be an easier problem to solve than Solid State Lithium?
Shirley Meng interviews are always so delightful. Thank You Jordan.
You're most welcome!
i hope she come back to china😎
@@amiigose I don't want her to work and live in China. Her talent should be used in a better place. The academic environment in the United States is the best. China is not a good place to do research, where she will only be gradually infiltrated by corruption.
Shirley Meng, what a treat, thanks Jordan
Prof. Meng counselled me when I was a Masters student at UCSD. She was gracious enough to talk to me for over 30-40 minutes one evening and was a factor in me deciding to not try to pursue a Masters or PhD thesis and go straight for my goal of working in the industry (now working in Process Development at Intel for 7 years). I definitely would have been miserable and wasted time at the university on a thesis (not a diss, it's just not for me).
I love anecdotes like this, thanks for sharing
Great interview Jordan. Shirley Meng is such a great person. So, if we are only 2% along the way, then battery production will double 6 times over the next 20 years. Applying Wrights Law means battery prices will come down 70% over that time to about $30US per KW. This is incredibly deflationary. A 10kw home battery will only have $300US of batteries in it. A 60 kw car only $1800US of batteries. When home batteries come down just 40% it will be much cheaper to be off grid than on it. That is incredibly disruptive. And as far as cars go, at a personal level, we just replaced a Mazda CX5 with a Tesla Model Y. It Cost $70k Australian(AUD) and we have a deal with our grid provider to charge it at 8 cents(AUD) per kw plus we have solar that works out at about 5 cents (AUD) per kw. Although tires and insurance is higher than the CX5 that cancels itself out with lower servicing costs. In the end we will genuinely save $3,000 (AUD) per year on fuel. Over 10 years that's $30k(AUD). Now that $70k car looks like a $40k(AUD) car except the Model Y is a far better car than the CX5 which costs $50k(AUD). So even with todays battery prices significant deflation has occurred. I hope I live long enough to see a world with $30 kw batteries.
She is!
As for the rest, good points and thanks for sharing 🤠. I really want to see batteries 50%+ cheaper or more. That's where they going from being a nice replacement to hugely dominant and unlocking ultra cheap energy.
I appreciate what you are trying to do in your post, but capacity is only one facet of a battery. The back of the napkin math you are using is extremely unlikely to be realistic. I mean, extremely. It’s fanciful, it’s optimistic, it’s a lot of things. What it isn’t is reference quality info. Every chemistry needs its own processes and accompanying logistics. Don’t forget, industry is human.
@@artysanmobile Just follow Tony Seba and you will get the picture. Home batteries and electric cars will end up just low profit commodities. Good examples are solar panels, flat screen TVs, colour printing etc. History is littered with deflated new innovations. The first refrigerator my parents bought cost the same as a block of land in the 1950s. It is not just scaling that reduces the price though it is competition to come up with new technology to get the jump on the opposition. CATL have announced big battery discount prices already this year and Tesla is aiming for $45 per kw with the 4680s. Lithium prices are plummeting as sodium looks a real threat. I am absolutely positive a $30 or equivalent price related to inflation will occur.
I think battery prices are already steadily going down ~18% per year on average…
They half every 3 years or so…
@@thelimitingfactorthere's a UK group based at the university of Cheshire that have developed a ceramic based Na cell that's insulated by a vacuum .. It uses ordinary food grade salt... and Cheshire is built on mountains of Halite... rock salt. There cell is designed for long term storage both in terms of life spans and holding on to a charge ... Without losses...designing it to work at a higher temperature makes it safer and more stable ... The vacuum insulation enables it to hold on to the temp advantage generated in cycling.
Northvolts Na Ion cell is 1,600KWhr per Kg which is on a par with some Li phosphate cells. It's based on a Prussian blue chemistry and is a sachet type.
There's one mineral all the Li tech depends on that is required is Fluorite. Sometimes called the quiet or secret one. 🤔
The impact of AI on sorting the wheat from the battery elemental Chaff ....it saved decades of experimentation. Reducing a choice of thousands down to a short list of 20-30 candidates..
The next step is pairings and arrangements... Na Li Al and Sulpher all offer significant break outs.
What a coincidence, my friend is going to study under Shirley Meng. He turned down MIT for the opportunity, which shows how good Shirley Meng must be in her field
She's great!
Smart move by your friend. Dr Andrew Karpathy studied for a Basic at University of Toronto with Geoffrey Hinton - worked out Frunkin’ well! ✅
Fantastic video Jordon and Shirley! You both keep doing what you do and I'll keep watching and learning!
💖
Another great interview Jordan. Shirley is so good to spend some of her time to be interviewed, so we all can benefit from her insight into battery chemistry development. Your questions were great, and Shirley provided insightful and understandable answers. I am excited about the possibilities for Na-ion batteries in the near term for entry level cars. After seeing this, I am also excited about the long term prospects for Na-ion, maybe including solid state anode-free someday.
Glad you enjoyed it! 🤠
Jordan and Shirley, thank you very much for sharing your time and knowledge with us...insightful and fascinating!!
You're most welcome!
As an off grid solar/wind power installer, we no longer use lead acid but have transitioned to Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. Looking forward to progress on Sodium batteries!
Art Toy, Lawrence, Michigan.
BS/MS Chemistry, UCLA.
💯🙏
Fascinating stuff had no idea that sodium could achieve such a charge rate!
This is a timely interview, and it's so cool to listen to Shirley Meng talk about her research and share her insights on Sodium-Ion and Lithium-Ion Batteries. As she said, she and others have been researching them for a while. And it is now about putting the effort and energy into making them. I like her comment too that she is a scientist (she sees their value), it is good to dream a little. Agree, thanks so much, Mark 😊
I enjoyed this interview very much. It was so refreshing to hear a serious scientific/technical discussion unmarred by hype. My undergraduate degree is in physics.
Really glad to hear you enjoyed it! 🤠
What a great guest and authority 👍 way to go
It's very encouraging that such a brilliant person is moving battery research ahead for us.
Thanks a lot Jordan for bringing a very interesting video with many useful information about Sodium ion battery. Your interview videos with Prof. Shirley Meng always provide a strong motivation for a battery researcher like me.
Keep it up!
😊👏
Great content. Dispensing this level of technical information is not easy. This gives a deep understanding of feasibility of hyper fast charging. These charge times literally can be as fast or faster than filling a tank of gas. Which I think is the true barrier to fast consumer adoption . Thanks for this wonderful content!
You're most welcome Keith! Thanks for watching
Great content? Agreed! ❤ Prof. Meng is recognized as a Distinguished Scientist. She needs acclaim as a brilliant educator. Thanks to Jordan for giving us this access to her genius 😊
Ultra-rapid charging, above current 350kW rates is very dangerous, requiring very high DC voltages and 11kV AC input.
@@Ironic1950 This was not about achieving fast charging via high kw rates. But via batteries that can more efficiently take in energy . I think you missed the whole point of the technology.
@@keithwillis3761 I rather suspect you have no idea how electricity works...
While you didn't ask about fire risk, safety was mentioned and a graphic indicated that sodium ion chemistries (solid state or liquid electrolyte) are non-flammable, so that was effectively answered for those paying close-enough attention. What I think was completely missing was any discussion about cycle life of cells. High charge/discharge rates are great and solve much of lithium's comparative deficiencies with respect to charging rates and power delivery, cycle life is hugely important to the viability of a battery chemistry.
Even with cheaper materials, replacing a giant car battery is going to be expensive, so cycle life is critical.
Yeah, we could have gone on for hours.
What a wonderful and detailed techinal discussion - Shirley is amazing. Her knowledge of the markets, the production methods and supply chain complexities, is truly enlightening. Thank you Jordan!
Thanks!
You're most welcome! 🙌
Shirley is such a boss. Tesla should definitely have a Sodium Ion program. I love the sound of solid state sodium and how the cost of sodium is an advantage and not an issue, that's amazing.
Great news from Dr. Meng is that China is ready to scale sodium storage NOW!
Thank u for letting her free flow jordan, fan of her.
She's right- US investors won't invest in their own future if it is more than 3 years out. Another great video!
I hadn't considered Sodium Ion before, amazing interview!
Glad to hear it Adrian! 🤜🤛🤠
Sodium is pretty much as dangerous an alkali metal as Lithium, but has lower energy density, so Sodium Ion will not help mobile battery adoption...
@Ironic1950 it might help adoption of low priced entry level EV's.
@@gregbailey45 low volume, new production items never beat the price advantage of an established rival, so I doubt Naion will do that...
Thanks Jordan! Could listen to the two of you for hours.
Thanks for the great interview! I think that the better charging times are a key advantage for sodium ion batteries. Being able to charge your car in 5-10 Minutes is a lot better than doing it in 2-3 factor in time.
Exceptional guest and great interview. Thanks Jordan for setting the bar so high.
Thanks
You're most welcome! 🤜🤛
The host does a great job with the questions and follow ups.
Thanks man!
Incredible interview, so much cool knowledge
I love detailed technocal talks. This lady sure knows her stuff. Great interview.
Security of supply chain should be the real driver of our Sodium strategy. Well said.
Finally! On the point and great coverage on Na ion batteries!
Great interview. Good to hear from Shirley in person.
Great coverage on Na-ion batteries. Thank you guys 🙏
Great video, as usual, Jordan.. I think that the Na sourcing ease in USA is not a huge advantage, rather a small one. This is because NaOH or Na2CO3 are so dirt cheap that no one really cares. I got so excited about the potential of anode free Na batteries.
Jordan, thanks for your talents. I find your talks very interesting.
BEST RUclips LECTURE I HAVE EVER WATCHED
🤠🙌
Although some of this content is well over my head when it comes to Chemistry's, I found this to be a very well balanced interview and very informative.
Thanks to Dr. Meng for her time. I've heard she is highly regarded by many of her students. Many of her student are also quite accomplished.
Thats was a very interesting video. Shirley is very convinced that Solid State Li-Ion will work. Pushing for the long term view. She is right. When correct on Sodium Ion, at minimum one mass manufactured vehicle is using Li-Ion (BYD) already now?
For stationary storage it should be already now be very interesting.
What has not been discussed how deep prices can go down? When remembering correct, low temperature (range) is an issue. And cycle life. Looking forward to the next video with the two of you.
Glad to hear it!
Yes, a few companies are working on ultra cheap short range sodium ion vehicles in china.
I did a video already on how cheap sodium ion will get and for what versions, etc... published end of september and with a Cybertruck on the thumbnail. Roadmaps.
Dang… I feel smarter after watching this. Chemistry is not one of my favorite subjects but this topic in particular is becoming more fascinating than I expected.
Now to rewatch a previous video now that my brain is warmed up.
I absolutely loved this video.
"The real fight is against oil and gas" she understands! I really appreciate her insights and explanations. Thanks, Jordan
It's increasingly important that *you* push your politicians to *LOOK FORWARDS*
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Very true. Politicians are very shortsighted and don't seem to be able to look into the future any further than their 4 years term or so.
Lol. The nature of a politician is “tell me where the parade is headed so I can get in front of it”
@@dewiz9596
More like "give me at least 2 options of the direction, so that I may choose the one more profitable for me"
Great interview! I was confused by Shirley's comments about graphite anodes. She mentioned that with a different solvent sodium could intercalate into graphite, but then when she talked about what anode she was researching to use instead of hard carbon, she didn't mention graphite. So I'm not clear on whether graphite could be used as the anode for a sodium ion battery or not.
Jordan
Interesting discussion on the "Everything electric show" channel last month regerding the UK company LiNa who (strangely, zero Lithium, considering the name) have a Solid State Sodium cell designed for long term storage, I believe ready to "leave the lab"
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Not particularly high on technical detail, but worth a watch.
This is extremely interesting, thanks for sharing.
Excellent guest, excellent interview 👍
Great interview, as always.
Thank you for posting and sharing!
Use silicon aluminum intermetallic in a graphite matrix for the anode and iron nickel oxide stabilized with a dash of manganese, magnesium, aluminum and zinc in a copper graphite matrix as the cathode.
Great work! Ty
Excellent video! Many thanks for this! 🎉😊
Just found this. Amazing podcast.
Yeah, Shirley is great!
Really informative, thanks Jordan
amazing content thank you for your hard work, very insightful
Excellent interview and discussion, Jordan and Dr. Meng! I submit that we don't have until 2050 to address our climate challenges. In fact, we might not have until 2030 to make large inroads into the problems we face.
Sure thing! All is not lost. The massive feedback events remain low odds. If we continue on this compounding growth trajectory, we'll be in a good place to avoid the worst effects of climate change.
@@thelimitingfactor
The problem being, it takes one politician, in the right place, at the right time, with the wrong .... "understanding" (and or motives) to change both perception and time of execution.
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If this applies to certain countries, the implications for those countries and in some cases the rest of the world could (will?) be... "Worrying".
(We're talking aggressive conflict, both internal and external, systemic "adjustment" [monetary] and general social adjustments)
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Interesting times?
Très bonnes explications et très bon interview.
Excellent. Just excellent.
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謝謝！
🙏🏼🤠
Professor Meng is absolutely correct. The reason why the US is falling behind is because the US is too busy trying to use road blocks to slow the competition rather than pushing ahead with focused development of technologies at high rate. Tesla and SpaceX are showing the way for all companies in how this works. Time for a paradigm shift in the Western World in how we develop and apply technologies thus bolstering industry.
Yes!
Absolutely right.
Great content as always!
Given that America alone spends a trillion dollars a year on energy, trillion dollar capital investments in key energy technologies seems justifiable.
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The "war on terror" cost 8 trillion over 20 years.
Especially since it includes education and research. Actual infrastructure would probably be well under a trillion if we do it right.
Re: Sodium SS Development. Prof Meng is our "Ruth" knocking it out of the park! But, 2-3 years out still for us! Where's our DoE? Ok, I guess 2045 is soon enough for this scale of (15-20C🙄😅😎🤑) breakthrough. "Game is on!" Hard carbon "Tangled Up In Blue." (Needed a refresher on intercalation.) 100T-based Megapacks? Yeah, we can spell them a few years & $s! "Believe in destiny!"
Thank you so much for these videos! ❤
You have to be in the game to win the game.
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If you keep complaining about "who owns the ball" you're not going to going to be playing, let alone winning.
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Now consider that this is the biggest "game" every played (yes, bigger that oil) and as such provides the greatest opportunity to "win" (if thats the ultimate aim) over the next 4- 5 decades.......
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It SHOULD be a simple choice?
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Wow, talk about hitting the nail on the head. Very astute philosophy.
Excellent
Good program. Thank you mam.
good job ,i am a sodium ion battery engneering in chinese company called Zonergy. I am very concerned about current work on sodium batteries because they are early pioneers
What is your concern?
@@mojay007 I think sodium ion batteries first replaced lead-acid batteries in the market, that is, low-speed vehicles and large-scale energy storage. It can complement the advantages of lithium ion batteries.
The fact that electrification is "politicized" is really depressing and causes the US advancements to be slower.
A situation which will leave some on "the wrong side of history".
Also be careful regarding those with "a big stick" using said stick to maintain dominance.
(Read between the lines)
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"Interesting times" ahead?
Not only politicised, but US power structure is heavily dominated by fossil interests for short term gain. Hence also hydrogen - a physical product that can be shipped, like coal. We have no vision, "grandfather" old ways, legacy business.
Unlike Otto von Bismarck’s definition, MY definition of Politics is “The Art of Spending Someone Else’s Money”. . . and, perhaps, taking a cut. This form of politics takes place at every level, from the local Homeowners Association to the highest levels of Government.
In the US buying a doughnut has been politicized. My revivifier says, “Heck, I just wanted a dextrose ❤️ fix…”
@@FrunkensteinVonZipperneck CO2 levels from a gas burner in your kitchen, a real thing according to science, has been politicized.
Doesn't matter if the CO2 meter says it's high, doesn't matter if that causes ill effects! I don't believe it cause I am on the opposite political side of that!
Shirley Meng for president !
Constitution may disagree. With that accent, I doubt the professor was born in America.
Thanks so much for the interview. I understand the need for patience in the development of better sodium batteries. But so much of the buzz that drives investment in new technologies comes from seeing workable solutions in the near-term. Companies like CATL and HINA in China are showing plans to build Gen 1 sodium battery powered cars this year. California based sodium battery producers like Natron are taking advantage of the long life and fast charge/discharge attributes of sodium batteries for use in data centers. Even though fixed storage is a good fit for Gen 1 sodium batteries, American sodium battery producers should team up with advanced EV producers like Aptera, who will soon be building their super efficient EVs that only use 100Wh/mile (plus onboard solar assist) which should be able to drive 250 miles from a relatively small 20kWh sodium ion battery pack.
Thanks! I'm not sure if this is meant to be a counterpoint to the video, but it doesn't seem to run counter to what's in the video.
@@thelimitingfactor Not a counterpoint. Your videos are always well researched and informative. And it was a great interview with Shirley Meng. My only added points are that the research community is looking to set out plans for today and far into the future. But the internet audiences and potential investors focus on promising battery technologies in terms of what is exciting and usable today, and in the next 2-5 years.
Great Show - Thanks
Shirley rocks!!!
There's a general misconception that vehicle batteries have to be "the best" plus, that they must provide the highest performance in all respects (density, range, and charging)
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I think we need to refine the requirement as "To fit the performance parameters of the vehicle"
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Small enough pack, to provide "sufficent" capacity to outrange the occupants (the metric which few understand!), and fast enough charging to repeat the process.
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Solid State Sodium may well be the winner in that respect.
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"Must have maximum" needs to go away.
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“Perfect” is the mortal enemy of “good enough”
Well said, Roger. “Satisficing” works- according to Prof. Simon (who was also at UChicago)
Being able to charge quickly more than makes up for the lower energy density once we have the charging infrastructure. That infrastructure is coming along and will make a 250 mile range more than enough for 90% of markets so sodium ion will come along at just the right time. Rural places like Canada will need longer ranges but even there it will be doable with the right charging behaviour.
Yeah, if it only takes 5min to charge and you get 200 miles per charge. That would be comparable with the gas cars.
Could be a game changer if the salt is worth its salt and delivers.
🙋♂️ THANKS JORDAN 🤗 FOR THIS INTERESTING 🧐 INTERVIEW AND THE INFO ℹ️🥶💚💚💚
You're most welcome 😊
Awesome interview. I love this channel. Time to subscribe has come.
Woohoo! thanks for the support
Another great vid.
I just cannot fathom the optimism that some people show for hydrogen. It seems entirely too prone to escape, too energy intensive to make, store, and transport, and it seems to continue our dependence on liquified natural gas which we should be running away from, not expanding as we are currently doing.
Rule#1 for the next decade should be
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When you've spent Billions collecting the energy, use *ALL* the energy *as efficiently as possible*
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Once that "sinks in" it *should be a "no brainer" to arrive at:
1) Green supply (I think "renewable" is a misnomer)
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2) Storage (where required) in a passive, benign fashion.
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3) Maintain the general state/ form of the energy to maximise the efficiency.
("Electricity" stays as electricity)
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There's only 1 general concept which fulfills the requirements (imo)
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Wind/ Solar
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"Battery" (Pick your basic concept, most have merit)
To
End use.
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EDIT.
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This may actually be "Rule #2", with Rule 1 remaining as "Don't eat yellow snow"...
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But both as obvious. 😉
Some folks will do anything to get Hy ❤
What implications does this have for charging? If Gen4 Supercharger is 350 kW, what would make sense for sodium ion if it is 15C? From 70% to 100% how many kW could it sustain? Can it charge to 100% no worries like LFP?
What is the degradation profile?
Good questions!
Bear in mind for all these answers that much like Lithium Ion batteries include a range of chemistries like LFP and NMC, the same is true for sodium ion batteries. That is, some will be more or less power or energy dense or have worse or better cycle life.
I still need to a deep dive on all of this. These are my initial impressions:
1) I believe when Shirley suggests charging in the mid-single-digit minute range, she means 0-100%. Hopefully she'll jump in here if I'm incorrect.
However, I don't think the first sodium ion batteries will have that kind of performance based on what I've seen advertised so far.
2) The c-rate will be dependent on the pack size. For a 50kW battery at 350 kW, that would be a 7C rate, or 8.5 minute charge. That is, even with a small pack, the supercharger becomes the rate limiting factor for charging. You'd need 500kW to hit a 10C or 6 minute charge.
That is, at sub-10 minute charging, it's really not about the battery anymore, but the charger. That's especially true as you move to more standard pack sizes that are on average more like 75kWh. 750kW is required for a 10C or 6 minutes charge.
3) Note that I'm bypassing the question about 70-100% charge speed and focusing on 0-100%. That's because the only way for sodium ion to make up for it's poor volumetric energy density is to be able to rapidly charge from 0-100%. But, I think that's what you were getting at.
4) So, all things considered, the implication is that charging speeds with sodium ion batteries could be 2-3 times faster for a given amount of range than a typical Tesla vehicle.
BUT, I don't expect Tesla to start using sodium ion until the 2030s for vehicles because sodium ion needs to build scale and increase energy density. Once we see sodium ion in Tesla grid storage, which is also likely years away, I expect it to eventually follow in vehicles a few years after that.
5) Yes, many sodium ion chemstries are 'stable' at 100%. 100% charging for any battery causes degradation, including LFP. But, more stable relative to NMC/NCA.
6) But, interestingly, sodium ion should be more stable than any lithium ion battery at 0% state of charge because of the voltage and degradation dynamics between the hard carbon anode and aluminum current collector. They can actually be stored at 0 volts (deliberate short).
7) Degradation depends on the cathode structure. But, the range I've seen is typically between 2-5k cycles, so better than the average high nickel cathode and can be comparable to LFP.
Single digit minute charging sounds dystopic. Instead of walking to the deli next door for a Reuben sandwich and a pee, I'd have to stand by the charger like when I had to stand by a gas pump, then drive over to the deli, wasting time.
I understand that two production short range Chinese EVs use sodium ion batteries already. (Urban runabouts). Why is America not even able to do grid storage with sodium ion? What's holding it back?
It'd be interesting hearing optimal charging for LFP, for battery life.
@bearcubdaycare because this sad country politicized clean energy
@@bearcubdaycare: you can walk to the deli while the car is charging, and it can come pick you up when it’s finished😉
Thank you!
Go Shirley🎉
I had heard good things about sodium ion before. Seems it would be a good complementary tech, specially for static storage, and who knows if it will also be good enough for cars as well, but for now I see it as a good option for large scale static storage, given the challenges in energy density it still has to overcome. One thing is certain, given that scale has to grow to such high numbers (TWh) sodium ion is indeed a very important tech and will be very helpful to achieve those goals.
Fantastic interview Jordan. So a quick consideration : if the C rate is so high, it might be possible to have a low Kwh battery car and charge up fast (assuming the charging infrastructure can keep up with the 10C+ rate). For example a 30kwh battery (say 150-200miles range) could recharge in a few minutes. Isn't that approaching the refueling experience with gas?
Yes! 🤠
That's the basic gist.
This was exactly the sort of wonderfully indepth information I was looking for on this technology. **I do have one burning question** that pertains to what almost felt a bit glossed over in importance level. Especially as the technology comes to mass market in it's first generation form. What might the charge rate of the initial generation(s) cells be? I heard 15c and under 10 minutes. If first generation cells are anywhere near that rate..well..it's kind of a big deal..and depending on application this alone can REALLY offset volumetric energy density. When Charging capability becomes that fast..capacity becomes far less important in many applications right?
Yeah, initial generations are comparable to LFP, or a little better. I need to do a deep dive on this.
I think people want both more capacity and faster charging speeds. Well, at least people that don't have EVs yet. For me, the current range and charging speed does the trick.
@@thelimitingfactor Yes, we always want it all ofc! I just feel the difference between really long arc development to be useful outside very specific applications and an vastly accelerated one. Could easily hinge on such a feature *If indeed it is a true possibility to charge that quickly*. Anywhere near that sort of charge rate...demand will happen and development will acellerate IMO. Even despite the foreseeable future hidden premiums over Li. Such as probable need to redesign circuits for the discharge curve Curve I've seen for instance. Good stuff tho.
While everything is application specific.I ¿think? with this particular battery technology it would be wise to take a large, Application decided✅,square one, I'm ground up designing and selecting components as I engineer a solution. The first thing that hits me is ⚡Power⚡ what do I need to expect on my input voltage lines? My gut tells me if one looks...designing the system with an operating voltage range a bit extended now that miltiplies per cell ...isn't free I'll call it.
@ 20:00, Meng got it right. USA wants a fast-buck, a big return for its investment- within 3 years. China, Japan, and S Korea investors look to the long term, 10 years. Finally, as Meng so eloquently said, USA constantly makes much noise as to what China is doing instead of focusing on what USA can do best. What Meng is not telling you: USA has lost the EV battery race. US arrogance, bull-headness, nationalism, and greed have doomed US in many technology field. US capitulation of Lithium and Sodium battery developments to China is just the tip of the iceberg.
amazing, awesome!!
Sodium Ion solid state batteries together with carbon fibre structure vehicles may be the optimum solution for a variety of transport solutions.
"delocalized electron". I am among my people!
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Gotta love electrochemist jokes! 😀
Very very very very interesting!
I like her; calls out politicization. Engineers should rule the world.
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5 min charging to 250km + cheapest battery is going to be game changer for countries like india. (Drastic change in ev policy came in india to support sustainable future.)
Is it possible to polarise the hard carbon during the production process to create the layered substrate required for energy transfer?
Combined with solar, sodium ion batteries have real possibility to solve many environmental problems. I would like to hear more about reclamations of resources as compared to lithium.
The US only does sprints since the 80's. Changing that would be monumental.
Tesla is American. Tesla had patience for 16 years till profitability… Hare Tesla!
Yeah, it just takes the right person. An engineer instead of Harvard bean counters
I had no idea that Na-Ion storage study had been going on for so long!
Bearing in mind the difference in physical properties of the base elements, is it possible that Solid State Sodium cells may be an easier problem to solve than Solid State Lithium?
This is something I'm curious about as well.
What is the prospect of calcium ion?
Just the info I needed to answer my Sodium Ion questions! Still skeptical on the solid state cells but hoping to be proven wrong.
Good to be skeptical on solid state! It's promising, but there's a lot of bugs to work out of it
What’s the joules of sodium, watts, electron volts 9:21 level?, what about charging in low temps / high temp climates ?