My gosh, I can’t tell you how many times, particularly in churches, where gain structure was so poor, as a result of the PA being so robust and loud. The master fader would be at unity, and the volunteers are being told to push faders towards unity as well, But then the gain on input channels would suffer. As you can imagine, feeds to other areas such as lobby, live stream, monitors, etc. would all suffer. The first thing I tell people is get your input gain correct, put the faders where you want them, and if you need to back off on the main left right fader, then do so. If you realize you have to run the main left right, fader down any particular value for a long time, take note of that value, and turn down your PA that amount.
PREACH MICHAEL! Can’t tell you how many times I’ve walked into a facility, heard the mix and could guess the reason why it didn’t sound great was because poor gain structure. It’s such a key part that gets overlooked cause it isn’t as flashy as EQ moves or Compressor tricks. Great work sir!
Thanks a lot Michael...Let's have a series on this topic...Maybe take us through one of your gigs and how you optimize your level chain all the way to the Speaker...
Awesome content Michael! For a new video topic if you could cover corporate vocal strategies for pulpit/headsets (preparation/eq calibration, gain stage, EQ, dugan/automixer, etc). There are a ton of music content and almost nothing on vocal. Thanks a lot for the help and keep going, you are a gold mine!
Thanks this was a really great explanation. What got me when i started out was that levels in dbu are inherently the rms or effective level of a signal, but the maximum of 22 dbu is not, its a peak value. I think a lot of confusion could be solved by adding a peak behind the 22 dbu for the maximum level.
Was thinking about commenting the same - your absolutely right. This really got me when i calculated my gain structure from source to amp - where the amp has an adjustable voltage peak limiter. Really confused me, until I noticed that the dbu value is normally calculated using the rms voltage value. Another example that was confusing to me are the spec sheets of some digital mixers, where the reference point and max output are up to 4 dbu apart - which, at the beginning made absolutely no sense - but considering the max output is based of the peak voltage value, it all somehow comes together ;)
Thank you for this. We are running a Wing into Meyer X40s (amazing!) but the Meyer’s do not have an input trim. I’ve been running ALL the faders at -5dB (channels, DCAs and mains) makes sense to trim at the matrix. It will also help with volunteer training and not having to explain why I’m running at -5dB! Thanks again. May you continue to be blessed. 🙏
Yes! This is so helpful! Where I really get in my head is what should I use as a “reference level OUT” from my console. I.E. Should I turn up some white noise with 12-6dB of headroom on my master L/R?
Very helpful! I really appreciate your service to the community by providing this knowledge and experience. I often share links to your videos to volunteer teams that I run.
Hello Michael! Great video, thank you for that. But when you talking about master fader sends on matrices it’s not about pan law, it’s about electrical summing. Stereo bus downmix to mono bus at -6 db from L and R each for preserving gain unity otherwise mono mix would be hotter in level. There is nothing to pan in mono mix.
Maintain the signal-to-noise ratio at its nominal level, and adjust the power amp output last, as they do not need to be set at maximum or at noon merely because it is possible or it is written on. Work with all faders at nominal and use the feedback technique to set the right SPL for the event.
Using matrices-driven PA and pulling down on matrix sends is the most universal way for achieving a more-or-less optimal gain structure, especially at unfamiliar venues with installed systems - It's highly likely that the mixer is the only thing we can touch and all those DSP boxes and power amps are out of reach. Just finished a musical show at a mini-theater on campus. The main PA is two stacks of permanently flown L-Acoustics Kiva II line array, which are insanely loud even at -25dBFS (-7dBu) of input level. I informed the venue technician about the problem but he just said "we've always used the system this way, just turn all the input gains down and it'll be fine". Then I re-patched main PA to a stereo matrix bus on the console, set the send level from LR bus to about -15dB, and the overall loudness became acceptable when the LR meters jump healthily and happily around the -18dBFS reference line.
Excellent as always! This time perhaps even more excellent! I am about to teach the same thing during a workshop next week. I guess, I'll just show them this clip. Expect two more subscribers. The only thing I'd like to add is, that in some cases (i.e. Yamaha-Desks) the whole internal math is using floating point technology but not the final D/A conversion in conjunction with the "last" Fader. This could become audible as you really loose some bits during this conversion when this last Master is at -20 or even lower. I never actually heard a lack of resolution due to this mistake, but one Yamaha guy at a trade fare booth told me to take this into account. Is it crucial? I don't know. It might be.
Hey Michael. i'm a DJ and often i need to be the soundman as well. would you possibly do a video about optimization (not basic setup) for small systems? eg speaker placement, gain staging, EQing. DJ controller connected to a simple mixer , then to 1/2 amplifiers+passive speakers or directly to active speakers - usualy 1/2 subs and 2/4 tops. thanks a lot.
I use an A&H GLD-80 and have used a preamp control they call Trim that allow me to reduce the gain signal for the remainder of the signal path. This allows me to set a proper gain with my fader set to unity. If I’m not using this preamp feature correctly please let me know. As allows I appreciate your training and in-depth explanations.
Problem with “keep faders at unity and turn down mains” is stage volume. Where do you turn up just the one guest vocalist that didn’t show for sound check and sings very softly with a very loud stage if all your faders are at unity and your mains are only half way or less….
@@daviddaydodge8985if you’ve balanced your system, you can just gauge your meters for the late arrivals, I turn up input gain until the soft singer is hitting that yellow in the meter and she will be balanced with everyone else. Since everyone else is also balanced. Late arrivals get only the stage monitoring volume I have preset for them or lack there of, beggars can’t be choosers.
What is your opinion about the DAC converters from the console outputs should receive signal at unity to convert to the specs so you have a "healthy" signal going through your XLR and attack the PA system at a good level so ADC "reacts" as it should. Then reducing with the digital trim to match desired SPL lvl in the room. Hope that's clear!
Awesome Micheal, thanks for this info. Been pondering about this exact issue. I am a little hesitant diving into the processor/poweramp software, not a whole lot of clear instruction videos around for our specific poweramp... but I think I will just need to bit the bullet and go slow. Oh and I had to laugh at 12:40: "The DJ's turntable is super low..." haha wishfull thinking ;-). Thanks again!
Some live bands never have enough time to do a proper sound check. I hate open mic shows and bands that come to the shows and only have time to set up and I have to level everything in a rush because they're always late. I use a Presonus now and just use the presets. 😂
Unless I work with a preset show, traveling with a band as an example, then I would keep all faders and the LR master at unity, and get the levels needed from the mic pre.
I have the opposite effect - my main faders are set to unity. When my pastor speaks, his mic gain is hitting close to 0 but the main signal is so quiet! Drives me crazy
I had been trying to keep good gain structure throughout the console and turning down amplifier inputs because there have been several times that the amplifiers / speakers themselves were cranked all the way up, and even with the audio input muted the noise floor was raised by keeping the amps at 100% - in those situations, would that indicate an amplifier / power issue? I appreciate the way you made this very accessible!
Isn't +4dBu ~1.228V RMS? The graphic used in this video shows +4dBu (-18dBFS) as 1V RMS, which would actually be about 2.2dBu. Unless I'm misunderstanding what's being said here. 6:54
Sir How to Manage 2 Type Sub. I mean 2 /3 types bass reflex sub , example - 1) Front Loaded 2) Hornload 2) Revers speaker sub In one venue. How to manage it
Thank you. It makes sense. What do you think of this? Channel fader approx. 0dB, master L/R approx. 0db and use a DCA (master L/R) for adjustment? Thank you.
"The DJ's turntable is super low". I had a DJ clipping my X32 preamp turned all the way down to -12dB. Finding a DJ that plays "super low" is like finding aliens: we know they exist, but we've never seen one. Now, on topic: this is a great approach, and it makes sense.
Make sure to use the built-in attenuation on pioneer mixers, or throw a pair of in-line pads onto the outputs. Some mixers are too hot and the dj cant tell with their mixer meters that they are overloading yours. Then there's the other kind of dj you can catch red-handed 😮
If I just turn down the powered mains, is having the matrix still necessary? If so, explain please. I have appreciated your channel for a while now, thanks!
I am running RCF HDL 6a tops. I have seen in a few of your videos you are familiar with these as well. My first gig with them I set the volumes on them to 12 o'clock but found I was running my sends on the board too hot. I was peaking on my groups and main send.. I then watched a few videos from RCF and on many of their speakers they advise to turn the knobs all the way up. When i do this, I get an audible hiss. What do you do when using the RCF 6a?
this is golden content and will solve a lot of mix headaches.
My gosh, I can’t tell you how many times, particularly in churches, where gain structure was so poor, as a result of the PA being so robust and loud. The master fader would be at unity, and the volunteers are being told to push faders towards unity as well, But then the gain on input channels would suffer. As you can imagine, feeds to other areas such as lobby, live stream, monitors, etc. would all suffer. The first thing I tell people is get your input gain correct, put the faders where you want them, and if you need to back off on the main left right fader, then do so. If you realize you have to run the main left right, fader down any particular value for a long time, take note of that value, and turn down your PA that amount.
PREACH MICHAEL!
Can’t tell you how many times I’ve walked into a facility, heard the mix and could guess the reason why it didn’t sound great was because poor gain structure. It’s such a key part that gets overlooked cause it isn’t as flashy as EQ moves or Compressor tricks. Great work sir!
Thanks a lot Michael...Let's have a series on this topic...Maybe take us through one of your gigs and how you optimize your level chain all the way to the Speaker...
Awesome content Michael! For a new video topic if you could cover corporate vocal strategies for pulpit/headsets (preparation/eq calibration, gain stage, EQ, dugan/automixer, etc). There are a ton of music content and almost nothing on vocal. Thanks a lot for the help and keep going, you are a gold mine!
Thanks this was a really great explanation.
What got me when i started out was that levels in dbu are inherently the rms or effective level of a signal, but the maximum of 22 dbu is not, its a peak value. I think a lot of confusion could be solved by adding a peak behind the 22 dbu for the maximum level.
Was thinking about commenting the same - your absolutely right. This really got me when i calculated my gain structure from source to amp - where the amp has an adjustable voltage peak limiter. Really confused me, until I noticed that the dbu value is normally calculated using the rms voltage value. Another example that was confusing to me are the spec sheets of some digital mixers, where the reference point and max output are up to 4 dbu apart - which, at the beginning made absolutely no sense - but considering the max output is based of the peak voltage value, it all somehow comes together ;)
Thank you for this. We are running a Wing into Meyer X40s (amazing!) but the Meyer’s do not have an input trim. I’ve been running ALL the faders at -5dB (channels, DCAs and mains) makes sense to trim at the matrix. It will also help with volunteer training and not having to explain why I’m running at -5dB! Thanks again. May you continue to be blessed. 🙏
Yes! This is so helpful!
Where I really get in my head is what should I use as a “reference level OUT” from my console. I.E. Should I turn up some white noise with 12-6dB of headroom on my master L/R?
Very helpful! I really appreciate your service to the community by providing this knowledge and experience. I often share links to your videos to volunteer teams that I run.
Hello Michael! Great video, thank you for that. But when you talking about master fader sends on matrices it’s not about pan law, it’s about electrical summing. Stereo bus downmix to mono bus at -6 db from L and R each for preserving gain unity otherwise mono mix would be hotter in level. There is nothing to pan in mono mix.
Maintain the signal-to-noise ratio at its nominal level, and adjust the power amp output last, as they do not need to be set at maximum or at noon merely because it is possible or it is written on. Work with all faders at nominal and use the feedback technique to set the right SPL for the event.
Excellent video! Simple and well explained, going to reference this video a lot as I am training volunteers. Keep it up!
Using matrices-driven PA and pulling down on matrix sends is the most universal way for achieving a more-or-less optimal gain structure, especially at unfamiliar venues with installed systems - It's highly likely that the mixer is the only thing we can touch and all those DSP boxes and power amps are out of reach.
Just finished a musical show at a mini-theater on campus. The main PA is two stacks of permanently flown L-Acoustics Kiva II line array, which are insanely loud even at -25dBFS (-7dBu) of input level. I informed the venue technician about the problem but he just said "we've always used the system this way, just turn all the input gains down and it'll be fine". Then I re-patched main PA to a stereo matrix bus on the console, set the send level from LR bus to about -15dB, and the overall loudness became acceptable when the LR meters jump healthily and happily around the -18dBFS reference line.
Not a real big deal bit it should be pointed out.
The difference between pro +4 and consumer -10 is also reference units. Its +4dBu vs -10 dBV.
Excellent Mike, so simple yet so important!
Excellent as always! This time perhaps even more excellent! I am about to teach the same thing during a workshop next week. I guess, I'll just show them this clip. Expect two more subscribers. The only thing I'd like to add is, that in some cases (i.e. Yamaha-Desks) the whole internal math is using floating point technology but not the final D/A conversion in conjunction with the "last" Fader. This could become audible as you really loose some bits during this conversion when this last Master is at -20 or even lower. I never actually heard a lack of resolution due to this mistake, but one Yamaha guy at a trade fare booth told me to take this into account. Is it crucial? I don't know. It might be.
Hi there! Great video, may i ask, why not bring down the master volume of the power amp in a passive setting?
Hey Michael. i'm a DJ and often i need to be the soundman as well. would you possibly do a video about optimization (not basic setup) for small systems? eg speaker placement, gain staging, EQing. DJ controller connected to a simple mixer , then to 1/2 amplifiers+passive speakers or directly to active speakers - usualy 1/2 subs and 2/4 tops. thanks a lot.
I use an A&H GLD-80 and have used a preamp control they call Trim that allow me to reduce the gain signal for the remainder of the signal path. This allows me to set a proper gain with my fader set to unity. If I’m not using this preamp feature correctly please let me know. As allows I appreciate your training and in-depth explanations.
Great video! Can you explain power distribution for line arrays (both passive and active). I’m struggling to understand how much power is needed.
If only the drummer would play softer.
Problem with “keep faders at unity and turn down mains” is stage volume. Where do you turn up just the one guest vocalist that didn’t show for sound check and sings very softly with a very loud stage if all your faders are at unity and your mains are only half way or less….
@@daviddaydodge8985if you’ve balanced your system, you can just gauge your meters for the late arrivals, I turn up input gain until the soft singer is hitting that yellow in the meter and she will be balanced with everyone else. Since everyone else is also balanced. Late arrivals get only the stage monitoring volume I have preset for them or lack there of, beggars can’t be choosers.
What is your opinion about the DAC converters from the console outputs should receive signal at unity to convert to the specs so you have a "healthy" signal going through your XLR and attack the PA system at a good level so ADC "reacts" as it should. Then reducing with the digital trim to match desired SPL lvl in the room.
Hope that's clear!
Awesome Micheal, thanks for this info. Been pondering about this exact issue. I am a little hesitant diving into the processor/poweramp software, not a whole lot of clear instruction videos around for our specific poweramp... but I think I will just need to bit the bullet and go slow. Oh and I had to laugh at 12:40: "The DJ's turntable is super low..." haha wishfull thinking ;-). Thanks again!
Some live bands never have enough time to do a proper sound check. I hate open mic shows and bands that come to the shows and only have time to set up and I have to level everything in a rush because they're always late. I use a Presonus now and just use the presets. 😂
Unless I work with a preset show, traveling with a band as an example, then I would keep all faders and the LR master at unity, and get the levels needed from the mic pre.
I have the opposite effect - my main faders are set to unity. When my pastor speaks, his mic gain is hitting close to 0 but the main signal is so quiet! Drives me crazy
Brilliant! Thanks a lot!
What of we work in a very reverberation room? It seems to me that so called optimal găin increase reverberation and feedback
I had been trying to keep good gain structure throughout the console and turning down amplifier inputs because there have been several times that the amplifiers / speakers themselves were cranked all the way up, and even with the audio input muted the noise floor was raised by keeping the amps at 100% - in those situations, would that indicate an amplifier / power issue? I appreciate the way you made this very accessible!
Isn't +4dBu ~1.228V RMS? The graphic used in this video shows +4dBu (-18dBFS) as 1V RMS, which would actually be about 2.2dBu. Unless I'm misunderstanding what's being said here. 6:54
Yup, you're totally right here, that was my fault.
Sir How to Manage 2 Type Sub. I mean 2 /3 types bass reflex sub , example - 1) Front Loaded
2) Hornload
2) Revers speaker sub
In one venue. How to manage it
Thank you. It makes sense. What do you think of this? Channel fader approx. 0dB, master L/R approx. 0db and use a DCA (master L/R) for adjustment? Thank you.
"The DJ's turntable is super low". I had a DJ clipping my X32 preamp turned all the way down to -12dB. Finding a DJ that plays "super low" is like finding aliens: we know they exist, but we've never seen one.
Now, on topic: this is a great approach, and it makes sense.
Make sure to use the built-in attenuation on pioneer mixers, or throw a pair of in-line pads onto the outputs. Some mixers are too hot and the dj cant tell with their mixer meters that they are overloading yours.
Then there's the other kind of dj you can catch red-handed 😮
What does RMS stand for/signify in this context? (5.38m)
If I just turn down the powered mains, is having the matrix still necessary? If so, explain please. I have appreciated your channel for a while now, thanks!
What is your opinion on a Yamaha DM 3 mixer. Thank you
I am running RCF HDL 6a tops. I have seen in a few of your videos you are familiar with these as well. My first gig with them I set the volumes on them to 12 o'clock but found I was running my sends on the board too hot. I was peaking on my groups and main send.. I then watched a few videos from RCF and on many of their speakers they advise to turn the knobs all the way up. When i do this, I get an audible hiss. What do you do when using the RCF 6a?
Very rich instructions on How to fade it down when it gets louder in a gig