Dude I've been binging your channel. So informative. Thank you so much! As someone who is really into live audio but not so much in math lol it's amazing how much can be calculated.
Thank you so very much! I hope to make the math a bit more "approachable". Like you've probably intuited, there's a ton of art to great sound, but much of it can be traced back to or grounded in a scientific approach.
Biggest A-Ha! Is trim height. I’ve seen proof in your other videos and used this for the first time this week. For 35 years I’ve raised speakers to head level. Now I’m going as high as I can and being smart about how evenly the target area is covered. Thank you!
This is a very informative and in depth video. Great information, analogies, and graphics. I think it misses something, however. In my experience as a live music lover, when I buy a ticket to a concert at an arena or other large venue, I expect the sound to be just as you describe here. But as a listener as well as a performer who also provides sound production, I've learned over many years that in most if not all other environments, the listener, or more specifically, the customer, expects the sound in the room to behave in a normal, predictable manner. For instance, my band performs often in venues currently popular in our region called brewpubs. In these establishments, customers come to dine, drink, visit friends, dance, and/or listen to the music. And where they sit or stand at any given moment is determined by which of these activities they're engaged in as well as their own preferences regarding sound volume. Some brewpubs are small, but others are quite large, and would need delayed speakers to meet your criteria for a good sound. If you pay attention to your audience in such venues, folks who are dining often seek tables in the very back or off to the side where they know from their own experience that the volume is lower and they can talk and visit more comfortably. Also, parents with young children and some elderly customers seek out these locations. I believe I'd be doing the business owner and the customers a disservice if I tampered with the natural laws of sound in these types of environments. Also, there would likely be complaints of the music being too loud when it's actually no louder, but normal sound dissipation has been altered. In other words, the goals that come to mind for the sound engineer in producing a good live sound are not the only goals to be taken into account. The audience's needs and expectations for the particular type of environment the show takes place in should be key concerns.
I set my delay time using pink noise. I measure the distance between the speakers and that gets me close. Then I stand in the spot where I want the speakers time aligned and play pink noise. Slowly increase the delay time (you need a remote control pad or a helper) and you can hear a sweeping high frequency moving up because of the phasing. When it gets to the top of it's sweep then the speakers are aligned. Awesome content!! Thanks!!
Very Very informative. Personally that is why i love speakers like k12.2, k10.2 even k8.2 or Turbo Sound ... because they have a built in delay. For medium size venues' let say if i need fill/ coverage in front of the main, i just take the output from the main and plug it to the speaker that is going to be delayed then bring my laser measurement, put the measurement (ft) on the speaker itself and that will be my starting point. The built in delay system on the speakers is very handy.
Thanks. As an amateur audio guy trying to learn how to up my game this was really helpful. Not just the 'what' and the 'how' but also the 'why'! When raising the speakers like this in a low room, where is the trade off between getting speakers higher but also not too close to the ceiling?
Getting them close to the ceiling may change the reflection angle of the sound waves off the ceiling, but I feel like it's still a net positive to get your speakers high so you can decrease range ratio.
Hi Michael! How did you choose that speaker? In general how do you choose? Is it based on dispersion, or sensitivity, wattage, or a speaker you trust and knew already?! Thanks man!
Thank you so much! If any PA is flown it's almost always an outside rigging company that gets the motors on the steel, then I get the PA flybars on the motor points.
Hi, What if I had your set up for the speakers but had a sub running in the center of the mains. Would I also need to time align that? And would it be best if I also ran my sub frequencies through the delay speakers as well or should I keep them on the Mids and Highs? Thank you!
I’ve heard somewhere that you should delay your delay speakers a few ms more than what would be time aligned to make use of the precedence effect. What do you think about that?
Yes, I've heard that as well. Making the mains arrive about 2ms earlier is usually the "sweet spot". I honestly don't find myself using it much in practice, though.
Thank you for the great video. I have an event where the room is 40’w x 90’l. I have 4 QSC K12’s with stands and 1 dual 18” and 2 single 18” subs. I have a DBX Driverack PA. Could I use the Driverack to set a delay for the 2nd pair of speakers half way down the room? And where would you suggest subwoofer placement. It’s for a college party. All you input is much appreciated.
Hey, Huey. If I remember right the Driverack PA only has a 10ms output delay line, and I'm thinking you will need more than that to adequately sync the speakers. As far as sub placement, I'd do both in front of the stage in the center.
Thanks so much for making this informative video! One thing I don’t understand is how do you get the mains and delayed speaker to be at the same level if they are 40 feet apart? Are you lowering the output of the delayed speaker so it matches the mains at your alignment point? Thanks!
I was just wondering if it is viable to delay speakers when they are moved in two directions? For example my mains are in the middle while the delay speakers are further back but also further wide. Would the delay time still work/be accurate?
I'm often setting up pa systems in ballrooms set up with the stage on the wide side. I usually have two speakers in the front as mains, two speakers out wide in the front corners to cover the areas outside the throw width of the mains, and two more on the sides at the halfway point of the room as delays. I've started incorporating a single speaker under the front of the stage as a front fill, but how can I cover that back middle of the room without plopping a speaker right in the center of the room?
I'm actually on a show as I type this with the exact same setup and have the exact same issue. Unless you have rig something off the airwall track in the mid center, that's a tough nut to crack.
Hi Michael, If I have my system set up like this and I'm mixing at the back of the room, will listening to the delayed speakers give me a bad representation of the mix as the high end would be much louder than the subs at the front? Should I move my mixing position to before the delayed speakers but then again I would be hearing the back of the delays which would be even more muffled sounding.
Great question, Aaron. Like you've probably found, there's no such thing as free lunch! I would set the sub level for the room at mid depth. Those at the front will have subs a bit hot, it'll be a bit light at the back. I'm not sure if "move mix position" means walking forward with an iPad, or completely moving where FOH is, but I suspect that you could keep your console at the back of the room, but then every few songs in the set walk up to front third of room just to check in and see how it feels. Or, do the opposite. Stand with your iPad at the front third, then walk back and check in at the back every few songs. I like standing closer to the stage anyway if I'm also mixing monitors. It's a lot easier to communicate with the band that way.
It depends on how far downstage it is, but I would level set the center fill for its zone, then time align it with the mains at where they become equal in level.
Stupid question, does speaker cable length affect delay? I noticed i had speakers right next to my amp stack before with like 3 foot cables, and speakers further away with like 10 metre cables, and it seems to give it a little hall effect reverb/delay It does sound ok, in fact it makes the tracks sound live when there actually recorded, but it is noticeable
Another great video! Thanks!👍 Do you time align subs to foh? If so how would one go about it without the use of software? Could you stand in front of the sub speaker grill and measure the distance to the nearest foh speaker with a laser measure?
Hey, Mark. Great question. I usually end up time aligning subs on-axis with the right mains about 75% of the way back into the audience, or FOH. If I have time I'll do both and see what gets a better response at FOH. As far as doing it without software, Nathan Lively has a great video on this: ruclips.net/video/0YWdMK6H1HI/видео.html
I think they can be helpful as long as the range ratio calls for them and you're able to do a cardioid setup to avoid too much backflow. But if there's budget cuts or we're needing to simplify things they're usually the first thing to go.
hi mike thanks for the information in the video, I wanted to ask you if as regards the alignment of the delay speakers with a complete P.A (for example with classic hanging top + sub on floor) we follow the same process described by you in the video both as time align than as a search for the measuring point. thanks from Italy !
Great question! I would first level set each "zone" - where your main PA covers vs your delay speakers. Then to align them, you find the point in between each of your zones where the main PA and delay speaker are equal in level.
Great question. It depends on the max SPL of the delays vs the mains and at what location you place the delays. If the relays can "stand on their own" without help from the mains and provide the tonality and SPL you want for the show, then you can use relays. Also, if your mains have no hope of actually providing coverage alllllll the way to the back, then handing of to a relay system is also desirable. It's all up to the speaker SPL handling and the inverse square law : )
1. Walk the seam between where your mains and your delays overlap. Listen to where you hear the comb filtering the most, where those two sources are equal in level. That's where you'll place your measurement microphone. 2. Find the delay value with the mains soloed at that point. 3. Mute your mains, fire up your delay and see the difference in delay times. You will have to add electronic delay to your delay speaker to make it match where the mains arrives at that point.
I like your videos, but there is one pet-peeve of mine you seem to employ in every one. "Divide and conquer" is a historical quote; first Julius Cesar , and later James Madison, just to name some of the important people that have used it. It DOES NOT, nor HAS IT EVER meant to divide your forces to address multiple challenges on multiple fronts. It means to sow discord among your adversaries, to divide THEM, making them weaker and easier to conquer. This is something that irks me, and I know some may not care. By all means continue to say whatever you like, but at least now you know the historical context.
Hey, Crash. You're right - I had totally misunderstood the origin of this quote! Sowing discord is no way on my agenda. I'll come up with something better for the future, thanks for letting me know.
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Great job on this, Michael. Comprehensive! :-)
Thanks a ton, Nathan!
Dude I've been binging your channel. So informative. Thank you so much! As someone who is really into live audio but not so much in math lol it's amazing how much can be calculated.
Thank you so very much! I hope to make the math a bit more "approachable". Like you've probably intuited, there's a ton of art to great sound, but much of it can be traced back to or grounded in a scientific approach.
Biggest A-Ha! Is trim height. I’ve seen proof in your other videos and used this for the first time this week. For 35 years I’ve raised speakers to head level. Now I’m going as high as I can and being smart about how evenly the target area is covered. Thank you!
You're very welcome!
This is a very informative and in depth video. Great information, analogies, and graphics. I think it misses something, however.
In my experience as a live music lover, when I buy a ticket to a concert at an arena or other large venue, I expect the sound to be just as you describe here. But as a listener as well as a performer who also provides sound production, I've learned over many years that in most if not all other environments, the listener, or more specifically, the customer, expects the sound in the room to behave in a normal, predictable manner.
For instance, my band performs often in venues currently popular in our region called brewpubs. In these establishments, customers come to dine, drink, visit friends, dance, and/or listen to the music. And where they sit or stand at any given moment is determined by which of these activities they're engaged in as well as their own preferences regarding sound volume.
Some brewpubs are small, but others are quite large, and would need delayed speakers to meet your criteria for a good sound.
If you pay attention to your audience in such venues, folks who are dining often seek tables in the very back or off to the side where they know from their own experience that the volume is lower and they can talk and visit more comfortably. Also, parents with young children and some elderly customers seek out these locations.
I believe I'd be doing the business owner and the customers a disservice if I tampered with the natural laws of sound in these types of environments. Also, there would likely be complaints of the music being too loud when it's actually no louder, but normal sound dissipation has been altered.
In other words, the goals that come to mind for the sound engineer in producing a good live sound are not the only goals to be taken into account. The audience's needs and expectations for the particular type of environment the show takes place in should be key concerns.
I set my delay time using pink noise. I measure the distance between the speakers and that gets me close. Then I stand in the spot where I want the speakers time aligned and play pink noise. Slowly increase the delay time (you need a remote control pad or a helper) and you can hear a sweeping high frequency moving up because of the phasing. When it gets to the top of it's sweep then the speakers are aligned. Awesome content!! Thanks!!
Thanks for sharing your approach!
Very Very informative. Personally that is why i love speakers like k12.2, k10.2 even k8.2 or Turbo Sound ... because they have a built in delay. For medium size venues' let say if i need fill/ coverage in front of the main, i just take the output from the main and plug it to the speaker that is going to be delayed then bring my laser measurement, put the measurement (ft) on the speaker itself and that will be my starting point. The built in delay system on the speakers is very handy.
Yes, it's a super nice tool to have.
Could you make a video on how to time align the subs when they are in the floor and your main pa is hanging?
Thank you so much!!
Fantastic info!
Superb as always......
Thanks, Arvin!
Great video! Thank you!
Your videos are so amazing. 💯
Thank you so much!
Thanks. As an amateur audio guy trying to learn how to up my game this was really helpful. Not just the 'what' and the 'how' but also the 'why'! When raising the speakers like this in a low room, where is the trade off between getting speakers higher but also not too close to the ceiling?
Getting them close to the ceiling may change the reflection angle of the sound waves off the ceiling, but I feel like it's still a net positive to get your speakers high so you can decrease range ratio.
For me, tye metronome makes it all so easy when u don't have softwares to measure and analyse
Yes, a metronome is a huge help in a pinch.
Hi!! What is the ideal processing for delay speakers, high pass filter, recommended? Where should the cleaning be?
Hi Michael! How did you choose that speaker? In general how do you choose? Is it based on dispersion, or sensitivity, wattage, or a speaker you trust and knew already?! Thanks man!
Great video! Do you do your own rigging or do you have someone/company do it for you?
Thank you so much!
If any PA is flown it's almost always an outside rigging company that gets the motors on the steel, then I get the PA flybars on the motor points.
Hi,
What if I had your set up for the speakers but had a sub running in the center of the mains. Would I also need to time align that? And would it be best if I also ran my sub frequencies through the delay speakers as well or should I keep them on the Mids and Highs? Thank you!
I’ve heard somewhere that you should delay your delay speakers a few ms more than what would be time aligned to make use of the precedence effect. What do you think about that?
Yes, I've heard that as well. Making the mains arrive about 2ms earlier is usually the "sweet spot". I honestly don't find myself using it much in practice, though.
Thank you for the great video.
I have an event where the room is 40’w x 90’l. I have 4 QSC K12’s with stands and 1 dual 18” and 2 single 18” subs. I have a DBX Driverack PA. Could I use the Driverack to set a delay for the 2nd pair of speakers half way down the room? And where would you suggest subwoofer placement. It’s for a college party.
All you input is much appreciated.
Hey, Huey. If I remember right the Driverack PA only has a 10ms output delay line, and I'm thinking you will need more than that to adequately sync the speakers. As far as sub placement, I'd do both in front of the stage in the center.
Thanks so much for making this informative video! One thing I don’t understand is how do you get the mains and delayed speaker to be at the same level if they are 40 feet apart? Are you lowering the output of the delayed speaker so it matches the mains at your alignment point? Thanks!
I was just wondering if it is viable to delay speakers when they are moved in two directions? For example my mains are in the middle while the delay speakers are further back but also further wide. Would the delay time still work/be accurate?
Do you have a video about house of worship with ceiling mounted speakers?
Not currently.
I'm often setting up pa systems in ballrooms set up with the stage on the wide side. I usually have two speakers in the front as mains, two speakers out wide in the front corners to cover the areas outside the throw width of the mains, and two more on the sides at the halfway point of the room as delays. I've started incorporating a single speaker under the front of the stage as a front fill, but how can I cover that back middle of the room without plopping a speaker right in the center of the room?
I'm actually on a show as I type this with the exact same setup and have the exact same issue. Unless you have rig something off the airwall track in the mid center, that's a tough nut to crack.
Hi Michael,
If I have my system set up like this and I'm mixing at the back of the room, will listening to the delayed speakers give me a bad representation of the mix as the high end would be much louder than the subs at the front? Should I move my mixing position to before the delayed speakers but then again I would be hearing the back of the delays which would be even more muffled sounding.
Great question, Aaron. Like you've probably found, there's no such thing as free lunch!
I would set the sub level for the room at mid depth. Those at the front will have subs a bit hot, it'll be a bit light at the back. I'm not sure if "move mix position" means walking forward with an iPad, or completely moving where FOH is, but I suspect that you could keep your console at the back of the room, but then every few songs in the set walk up to front third of room just to check in and see how it feels.
Or, do the opposite. Stand with your iPad at the front third, then walk back and check in at the back every few songs. I like standing closer to the stage anyway if I'm also mixing monitors. It's a lot easier to communicate with the band that way.
Would you delay center fill speakers from the left right mains that are on poles.
It depends on how far downstage it is, but I would level set the center fill for its zone, then time align it with the mains at where they become equal in level.
Stupid question, does speaker cable length affect delay? I noticed i had speakers right next to my amp stack before with like 3 foot cables, and speakers further away with like 10 metre cables, and it seems to give it a little hall effect reverb/delay
It does sound ok, in fact it makes the tracks sound live when there actually recorded, but it is noticeable
Nope! Electrons travel VERY, very fast down a cable, so you don't have to worry about that.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio cool, thanks for that info
Another great video! Thanks!👍 Do you time align subs to foh? If so how would one go about it without the use of software? Could you stand in front of the sub speaker grill and measure the distance to the nearest foh speaker with a laser measure?
Hey, Mark. Great question. I usually end up time aligning subs on-axis with the right mains about 75% of the way back into the audience, or FOH. If I have time I'll do both and see what gets a better response at FOH.
As far as doing it without software, Nathan Lively has a great video on this: ruclips.net/video/0YWdMK6H1HI/видео.html
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Thanks!😊👍
How far apart do delay speaker need to be before you delay them 25 ft or 40 ft
Hey Michael :-) What is you take on delayed subs?? Great channel by the way🙂
I think they can be helpful as long as the range ratio calls for them and you're able to do a cardioid setup to avoid too much backflow. But if there's budget cuts or we're needing to simplify things they're usually the first thing to go.
hi mike thanks for the information in the video, I wanted to ask you if as regards the alignment of the delay speakers with a complete P.A (for example with classic hanging top + sub on floor) we follow the same process described by you in the video both as time align than as a search for the measuring point. thanks from Italy !
Great question! I would first level set each "zone" - where your main PA covers vs your delay speakers. Then to align them, you find the point in between each of your zones where the main PA and delay speaker are equal in level.
Thanks for the video. What video would you recommend to approach handling this with a home theater system for only 1 person
Can you share your excel file (calculator) ?
Open sound meter web does not open. Do you know what happened?
What if your delays are not identical to the mains? Is it better to have a relay system in this case?
Great question. It depends on the max SPL of the delays vs the mains and at what location you place the delays.
If the relays can "stand on their own" without help from the mains and provide the tonality and SPL you want for the show, then you can use relays.
Also, if your mains have no hope of actually providing coverage alllllll the way to the back, then handing of to a relay system is also desirable. It's all up to the speaker SPL handling and the inverse square law : )
Hi michael..is the qsc K12.2 delay system in DSP will work to delay my sidefill ?
Yup! That'll absolutely work.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio .thanks a lot ..informative channel❤
What if you just measure the distance between both the speakers and use that to convert to the delayed time ? Will that work
That will work as long as you're choosing the right point to measure from. Where speakers overlap and meet at equal level is a great place to start.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thank you for your reply 😄
How do you time align delays to mains using OSM?
1. Walk the seam between where your mains and your delays overlap. Listen to where you hear the comb filtering the most, where those two sources are equal in level. That's where you'll place your measurement microphone.
2. Find the delay value with the mains soloed at that point.
3. Mute your mains, fire up your delay and see the difference in delay times. You will have to add electronic delay to your delay speaker to make it match where the mains arrives at that point.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio you are a god amongst men. Thank you
@@tomoswilliams9472 Happy to help : )
I like your videos, but there is one pet-peeve of mine you seem to employ in every one. "Divide and conquer" is a historical quote; first Julius Cesar , and later James Madison, just to name some of the important people that have used it.
It DOES NOT, nor HAS IT EVER meant to divide your forces to address multiple challenges on multiple fronts. It means to sow discord among your adversaries, to divide THEM, making them weaker and easier to conquer.
This is something that irks me, and I know some may not care. By all means continue to say whatever you like, but at least now you know the historical context.
Hey, Crash. You're right - I had totally misunderstood the origin of this quote! Sowing discord is no way on my agenda. I'll come up with something better for the future, thanks for letting me know.