I don't see your issue with the healing river's wrist scene. People tend to be hypocritical in such situations. It's natural to feel angry when your loved one at least in your eyes, needlessly uses what amounts to a free cheat death card to heal a simple easy to deal with wound. Especially since her wrist would have healed naturally without the intervention. Slapping is not quite the same as 'physical abuse' either, especially in the context. It's her reprimanding him, yes the doctor may not have gotten mad when she used up all her regens. but thats the point, she's got one life and understands the value of regenerations. It's not like she tsundere tsokoyomi'd him and kicked his face into a wall shattering it. It's at worst what older parents might do to discourage bad behaviors. The natural hypocrisy of the human mind is about subjective view. It's not like River necessarily knew right away the doctor only had one regeneration after all. Heck the opener of the impossible astronaut acted as though he did have other regenerations. Everything that killed him was about 'cancelling the regeneration process'. As for your complaints on the book... again it's not about just 'reading it in a random book'. It's the future can't be changed once the future is already known. Had they read the book and not even *realized* it was their future. No, the future would be flexible, but by reading it and recognizing it was the future. They lock their own future into place, the whole foresite is dangerous sorta deal. It's not the act of reading the book, it's the act of knowing the future. The rest of your complaints are good thought
I think the best ending would have been where the Ponds do get zapped back in time and the doctor goes back to find them, and he does but they've both grown really old. This parallels how in the girl who waited, Amy had to grow old without Rory and how in this episode Rory had to grow old without Amy, but now they finally got to grow old together. I don't think for a companion to leave it has to be a big dramatic moment, and I think this would suit Amy and Rory better.
The Statue of Liberty being an Angel would have been fantastic as a "boss monster" for the Angels IF and only IF it is permanently locked because it has too many eyes on it. The plot of the story could then be the Angels attempting to pursue a plan that would blind the whole city (I'm thinking a sort of spy/detective thriller when the Doctor is attempting to find out who/what is trying to poison the water [or some other such plan]) with some alien pathogen that blinds the population (thus freeing the Angel of Liberty).
Honestly hard agree, this episode is magnificent and one of my favourite 11th era episodes, every time I rewatch it, it feels like I'm watching it the first time again, the suspense never goes away and u think maybe just maybe the ponds would survive and the ending would be different (though the fake out good ending didn't help lol) but no. Although it sucks to get my heart broken over and over I still love this episode and cherish it, absolute masterpiece and a brilliant send off for the ponds.
I think that just shows how diverse this fanbases opinions can be. One man's treasure can be seen as a boring overlong slog to someone else, it's stuff like that makes me love being a Doctor who fan
In terms of the river scene, it's actually perfectly in character. It all goes back to what River would say in The Husbands of River Song. As a refresher in that scene River says that while she loves the doctor you can't expect the doctor to love her back since he's this god like being who never stays around long enough to get involved in people's lives. While it's her first time expressing this mentality in the show it's clear from all her adventures with the doctor that this is how she felt throughout all of them (expect for the library since that occurred after the husbands of river song for her). To her the doctor is everything. He is the love of her life the one that she grew up obsessing with and the magical mystery man that she wants to spend the rest of her life traveling with. So to her he is worth the regeneration energy. She believes that the doctor doesn't see her in that same way. She believes that she's just another human he can adore on and then just leave. So she believes that she isn't worth his regeneration energy which is why she slaps him for using it. Also in terms of River being amy and rory's kid never really being mentioned the problem is that River is only their kid by birth and nothing else. They never really got any hands on time with their daughter as melody was taken away from them immediately after she was born and then when they were growing up they had no idea they were being friends with their future daughter. And because of the timey wimyness of it all they just saw River as this mysterious person not as their daughter. So they never really got to be river's parents and they never really got to raise their kid so it makes sense that they really wouldn't have much of a parent-child relationship.
Yeah, that does make sense, although I did get the impression from the wedding of River Song that she would not all the time, but occasionally come and visit them when she knew that it was no longer a chance of her messing up the timeline with them knowing she was their daughter. And while it's a long time between those episodes, I can imagine Moffat having her view of him being like that at the back of his head, since I think he is actually the only person who wrote for episodes that have River in them because he did have a long term plan with her. But the only thing that didn't make sense for me is why did she not start traveling with him after they died. I mean I understand in real world why, they were not going to have her become a full-time companion. And she does make that remark of why she won't travel with him all the time. But to me that would seem like the perfect time for them to actually truly travel together. I guess you can say her diary was nearly full so maybe it was actually she that ran away because she thought spending more time with him would mean the end would come that much sooner. We are just never given an actual in-world reason.
@@Bacbi tbh I feel like she said no because she knows them travelling together would be bad. They’re both similar and the doctor need companions who have morals that she doesn’t have to keep him in line (shown in episodes like mercy and w Donna). Whilst she wouldn’t change for him I think she probably has the awareness that it’s better if the see each other randomly instead of constantly as they’d negatively effect each other if they travel for hundreds of years w only each other. I think you also have a point w her running tho but I’d like to think she has also some awareness of the fact their relationship isn’t healthy as well. But thats just more wishful thinking than acc in cannon reason so take it w a pinch of salt
As clunky and rushed as that one episode was, didn’t they kinda raise her when she spent her whole life as their best friend? I mean Moffat really should have had her appear way back in season 5 and established her as their best friend named Melody in the wedding and probably a bachelorette party (heck or even bachelor party she seems the type to crash Rory’s).
@@Ems001 this but I also think it’s the fact that things would get really complicated really quick if River traveled with him full time and they ran into River at a different point in her time stream. While it is quite a ways away imagine if River was traveling with the doctor when The Husbands of River Song occurs. It would create all kinds of paradox’s and mess with time in a really big way. Her being so integral to the doctors timeline as well as the timey wimeyness of their timelines being all out of wack means that even tho that is towards the end of 11s timeline and that is probably her best bet of traveling with him, she doesn’t know if her future self has another encounter with this older doctor not that long afterwards.
I think the reason that once they read it, it can’t be changed is because River wrote the book and she’s also a part of the events she’s writing about. So once he reads it, he knows what she’s going to experience. Meanwhile for waters of mars, that was written by a journalist. Where a third party is concerned, what they write is as far as they know. So what happens can be changed and a journalist just reports it, it doesn’t make a difference to them whether the person they’re writing about died in x year or y year or where. But once they read what future River says happened, it has to happen to present River her for her to have been able to write it. (Idk maybe this is too deep and the writers just didn’t think it through but I think it makes sense when comparing these two cases)
No you're Def right. She was there, and is a primary source for the events, so it must happen because it did happen. But the journalist writing could change because he was only reporting about a death. Wasn't there and didn't no every detail, the bottom line was she dies. You're absolutely correct in you're thinking 💯
I mean even then Waters of Mars was about the Doctor learning he can't change events like that. So even if he had more wiggle room the overall point of working within the established time line sticks
No this makes no sense. Because there is no rile that says what you write down has to have really happened. Fantasy exists, River could have just written down lies. The idea that time itself seems to care what anyone writes down is insane.
because River is such an important person compared to a Journalist, right? A God who's words should happen? what if she lies? people trying to excuse bad writing, just making it seem worse, is hilarious
@@ember-september414 It didin't though. People died at the same time. People rewriting history is way too common. It was easier to rewrite history than to explain how she teleported to Earth and why she done suicide at the same day of expllosion of Mars base
See, I do like the idea of the Statue of Liberty being an angel. But I prefer it be suggested, and the only reason it hasn't moved is because its the city that never sleeps. A Dr Who monster where the perfect prison is the being kept alone in a heavily populated area
Whilst I agree with a lot of your problems, there is one piece of almost cosmic horror that is rarely discussed in this episode. The set up of reading something makes it set in stone is not just for the final chapter of the book. No, it’s for a very brief moment where we can see Rory’s gravestone. That means that we the audience made his death the fixed point in time. We killed Rory. That’s something that you could say I’m reading into but everytime I see this episode and I see that gravestone it creates that fixed point in time.
Imagine if instead the angel being a statue was a factor in it's placement. It wasn't simply a gift, but a prisoner, sent to be the centre stage of one of the most active cities in the world, to be stood for all incoming boats and all the busy bodies, who are ignorant jailers, sealing an angelic diety in place. And the entire episode revolves around a secret cult of the weeping angels themselves, trying to free their god so they might reign over the people of earth, by shifting the earth itself INTO a quantum locked state, where the angels can move free of the humans gaze, so their entombed god may rise once more
Wow that’s cool I love the lore that implies. I think the angels have a simple dynamic that works well and adding lore about their interactions and general biology (eg the image of an angel etc) just makes the stories more complicated. Adding lore of angel culture is interesting and that is such a missed opportunity. Perhaps it could still be made into a novel or something and retroactively state that the angel god statue could only move due to the presence of the TARDIS.
It’s mad how Moffat trips himself up with the regeneration energy thing. In The Impossible Astronaut, the Doctor begins to regenerate when shot (before the second shot kills him), and in this story he gives away regeneration energy to River to heal her arm. Buuuuut just over a year later, Moff writes in The Time of the Doctor that ‘11’ is actually his 13th and final incarnation (obvs ignoring much later revelations under another showrunner like in s12, etc). He also implied that he *knew* he was his last incarnation. Soooo what about those moments in …Astronaut and …Manhattan? Real answer likely is Moff hadn’t thought of the ‘11 is 13’ yet, and wanted to build extra tension into Time… when that episode came around. But it makes all three of these instances muddy and contradictory.
The astronaut one can be explained as him still trying to keep the War Doctor a secret, as it wasn't actually him dying, it was the Tesselecta, and he wouldn't want them knowing about his secret incarnation. This can be explained as him having enough regeneration energy for minor things such as healing injuries but not enough to actually fully regenerate (remember the regeneration in The Stolen Earth, while counting as one, wasn't exactly a complete regeneration, so it makes sense he'd have some excess regeneration energy)
9:33 River used all of her regenerations, so she knows perfectly well how important this energy can be. Also this probably was main reason why 11th was old in his last episode. But even during this episode River being upset on Doctor for wasting such precious rescources can be understable (at least was for me at the time of watching this episode for first time)
The fact that this episode even was a farewell for the Ponds *is* the most memorable part of the episode. That and the Weeping Statue of Liberty, talk about some King Kong/Godzilla-looking nightmare fuel. 😆The acting from Matt Smith and Karen Gillan was stellar at the end; the fact that Amy just so manages a quick "Good-bye" before vanishing forever makes her exit all the more of a gut punch, and the Doctor then collapsing to his knees shows true devastation. And again, since your discussion of the Ponds' expanded personal lives in last week's The Power of Three review, it's made me see this episode in an even more heartbreaking light. For instance: HOW THE HELL WAS BRIAN EXPECTED TO COPE WITH THE SUDDEN LOSS OF HIS SON (without Chris Chibnall's provided epilogue)?! 😑I wish it'd ended like you suggested, with them either deciding to leave on their own terms or the Doctor urging them to, ending with the Ponds continuing to live their own timeline.
I loved the scene with shot of the Angel over the graveyard, cutting to Rory looking back afterward (and it’s hard to notice on first watch). Such a quick, but great moment of build-up.
Short answer: No, it’s not a good farewell. Especially when the running gag is just how much the smith era does not care about death until now lol. But in all seriousness, it was a very emotional goodbye and yes I cried at the very end. But hey, you know what’s next ;D *clara noises in the background* Edit: On the topic of River song, her appearance here is actually a bit more significant just because finally, after so many adventures and stories, the doctor and River are on the same page. This story is all new to both of them and with neither of them knowing what’s happening it does up the antics just a bit more
@@DJtheBlack-RibbonedRose Oh, I’m pretty sure they’re not really that good tbh, but I just have a really soft spot for Clara and eleven. Their run was so sweet and short.
@@RoyalKingOliver it was practically a series long. (Eight episodes, and 3 specials. That adds up to 11. The specials were over an hour long, so the added time amount to about an episode. So 12 episodes. Series 7bs length is equal to 12 episodes, or in other words a whole series) That's like saying you have a soft spot for ten and Donna because they didn't have a lot of episodes together. And yes I am willing to spend my free time arguing against anyone who likes 7b instead of being productive how did you know?
@@RoyalKingOliver Understandable;. 12/Clara became a strong duo but we needed more 11/Clara. I remember The Snowmen being good (makes one for more Victorian Clara), and the episodes Hide and Journey to the Centre of the Tardis were decent too (though the latter I remember most for featuring modern Clara's prettiest look ❤).
@@yalieyal4362 That’s the thing! People don’t count the specials with 7b and it’s sooooo annoying!! Do you know how better the series becomes when you include Day and Time of the Doctor? Oh my god thank you for acknowledging that! I feel like very few people do this because it doesn’t “fit” the rest of 7b even though like… EVERYTHING CULMINATES TO SMITH’S REGENERATION!!!
For me this story is extremely hard to rate. On one hand I think it is beautifully written and performed and has this Greek tragedy quality to it. I love that Amy and Rory survive the climax only to be taken randomly at the end, it reminds us how people can be taken from us unexpectedly in real life. However, with the amount of times that Rory died beforehand it loses a lot of impact it would've had. Also while it's internally consistent I don't really think it makes sense as part of the wider show, seems like the doctor should just land in 1940 San Francisco or something and take a train to see them
"that Amy and Rory survive the climax only to be taken randomly at the end, it reminds us how people can be taken from us unexpectedly in real life." YES. I absolutely loved that about the episode. I didn't feel like it was repeating itself. The book also didn't bother me either. But the whole "I can never see you again" was such a distraction, that it really hurts the episode. It's like, it's not like they exist in one year or in one city forever.
To be honest the plot has more holes than Swiss cheese but it is otherwise incredibly well put together. You basically have to be able to suspend disbelief (read: want to suspend disbelief) and then it becomes an excellent episode
The Angels Take Manhattan is one of Steven Moffat's weakest scripts. It might even be his worst writing in Doctor Who. I really like the guy but there are so many plot holes in this story that the emotional moments and great performances don't make up for the fact that the writing is almost Chris Chibnall level incoherent. Thank goodness Moffat is humble enough to actually LEARN from his mistakes instead of doubling down. He was an inconsistent showrunner because some of his scripts were outright fantastic, with a few of them being some of the greatest Doctor Who stories in history, while others were so clumsily thrown together that it's hard to believe they were written by the same man.
@@tomnorton4277 The Empty Child is still one of my favourite episodes. Moffat seems to most struggle with bringing together over-branching stories, and plotlines. His one-off episodes are great, but, his actual storylines are awful imo.
I feel it had a Roman quality of falling on your sword for the greater good, which was really consistent with the Roman references all the way through re the Ponds, especially Rory. Of course, Rory would choose the Roman way to die! But yeah, Greek tragedy as well, the feeling of doom.
Excellent analysis, I always thought it was ass that The Ponds departure ended being all about Amy. Sure she and the Doctor had a special bond but Rory just gets shoved to the side. There's little to no acknowledgement of his loss too. It's such a disservice to his character and Arthur Darvill's work on the show. I can't wait to see your thoughts on the Capaldi era though. I know it's not perfect but I love Capaldi in the role very much.
This sums up my issue with Moffat and fixed points. He’s so inconsistent when he decides to do “you can’t do this!” and then go “oh I’ll do it! Play “I AM THE DOCTOR!” at a impossibly loud volume while I shoehorn a happy ending!”
Oh yes, love the episode overall, love the Ponds' departure, the acting from all 4 mains was fantastic. You just have to ignore the Statue of Liberty and don't try to figure out the logic of not being able to go back to 1938 NYC. The thing about Weeping Lady Liberty that always bugged me was, how have people been climbing up in that thing all this time? At least the other Weeping Angels didn't humans (or presumably anything else) running about inside them! Oh, and since Lady Liberty never covers her eyes, how are any Weeping Angels in Manhattan able to move? And what about...? Nevermind. Just ignore the whole Statue of Liberty thing.
Technically they can do anything even if they read the book. They just need to ensure the book has the exact same words and story, even if it’s wrong. Also the doctor could just go back in time by like an hour or so and then put the grave stone there and then go back in time to get Amy and Rory
Wild idea, Amy and Rory move to Connecticut or something and the Doctor picks them up the following year, sends them home and leaves them there…I’ve never understood this ending…
My consensus on the episode will always be that Amy and Rory should have left in God Complex by their own choice and Doctor letting go (he did always act like a kid with his only two friends with them; it would have been great character development for 11 to let them go). Returning for Christmas dinner every year from the series 6 special would have been fantastic. Then start series 7 with that Christmas special and make Victorian Clara the companion (because she was leagues better than modern Clara and we need more companions from the past in New Who).
What annoys me about this episode is how everyone ignores the glaring issues because "it's so emotional". I'd argue that there are so many issues with the exit (as described in the video) that it completely undermines it.
In my opinion the Ponds leaving on their own terms wouldn't have made sense. Their relationship with the Doctor is more complicated than any other companion's is, and because of their lives being so intertwined, and because of certain aspects of Amy's character (being abandoned by the Doctor as a little girl was formative for her, and she seems pretty conflicted about the idea of growing up and moving on, probably because the man who abandoned her when she was a child did indeed come back for her eventually) they were not able to choose to move on of their own accord. So it makes sense that Amy was forced to make a choice between Rory and the Doctor, and what makes it heartbreaking is that she is clearly certain about her decision to choose Rory over the Doctor (who still seems to on some level entertain fantasies about being the favourite) yet she still extremely distressed by having to do this. Whatever choice she made, she breaks the heart of one of her boys and also her own. Basically the circumstances of her departure are fitting for her character arc and heartbreaking for the viewers because they are all about conflicts rather than empowerment and acceptance. She does eventually come to accept it, but that's not the heartbreaking moment, rather, that's her final stage of character development, moving on from her childhood imaginary friend - and she attempts (with meh results) to use her newfound maturity to help her childhood imaginary friend, who is eternally youthful (in this context read: immature) to do the same thing.
Plus Ponds had few episodes where they literally says "we choose you over normal boring life", so WHAT could change it so much? Baby? Leave it with grandad, noone will notice
I feel like Moffat doesn't understand that we're not supposed to agree with the Doctor. You have to grow up and accept endings. Moffat writes like a child sometimes. To him a companion having like a normal homelife they chose over the Doctor is silly or unthinkable.
I personally fully agree with the ranking. A companion exit is important, and they completely dropped the ball here. The only thing I remember when I think of this episode is how stupid the doctor was for thinking he couldn't save them. No other parts of the episode matter when the major plot point revolves around all the characters losing all their brain cells so the script can happen. It stops being memorable for anything else.
@@HiperPivociarz , throughout the RTD era the companions are melodramatically torn between traveling with the Doctor or living their normal lives. And no, Rose didn't give a damn about her family, she wanted to travel with the Doctor forever...until they were melodramatically separated.
@@mayotango1317 But RTD didn't agree with Rose! He agreed with the Doctor that she should stay withher family. Also, Rose loves her mom, where did you get the idea she doesn't care about her? And we have Donna being forced into normalcy. The only person who doesn't go on to have a normal life is Martha, and even she is stuck on Earth in the modern day, not in some fairytale romanticized noir past.
5:40 Imagine if that actually had been a stake in a weeping angel episode. Maybe not this one, but the ramifications of turning an iconic figure into a memetic hazard would be DISASTROUS. Too bad this episode probably prevents this danger from being explored.
I feel like the statue of litterby bit couldve been really cool if it had just been implied. Something like "Any statue could be an angel" "Any statue?" *Looks at the statue of liberty*
As much as I hate the ending, I see why they did it, they wanted there to be no way for a potential return whilst also not just straight up killing them off, they live out their days together, which is just about the most Amy / Rory ending ever.
I think this is the best companion farewell ever I love this episode I’m more of a person who likes sudden death and one’s you don’t know what’s going to happen I hate it when people announce there leaving I just prefer it when it’s a shock but when they announce a doctors leaving that’s different
@@mayotango1317 but the Doctor didn't know that in the 12th regeneration, they discovered it in the 13th incarnation. So it was very foolish to waste regeneration energy just to flex. P. S. Also, Timeless child was a fever dream that do not exist
Do you know what I hate? The whole “Once you’ve read it it must happen” thing makes no sense because technically Amy only read that he’d say something so once he’d said it, whether or not River’s hand was broken didn’t matter because what Amy said had become true!
It’s the perfect end to Amy’s story arch. She starts immature, not even sure she wants to get married. No parents. Then she grows up and starts giving herself to Rory. Really loving him. And then finally in this episode she has to choose between a mundane life stuck in the past with her husband or adventures with her “imaginary friend” The Doctor. She chose Rory because she had fully matured
Something that has always bothered me about this episode is Rory going to look at the grave before being zapped back in time. I never understood why he went back to look at the grave instead of just going into the TARDIS and getting out of there. Also, how did he miss the angel statue right in front of the grave?
I do think this is a flawed exit. It had the potential to be along the lines of Rose in Doomsday in that both "died" trying to help save the day, but I think whilst it still has the emotional weight with the amazing music and the emotions from Smith and Gillan, I just think that having either both Amy and Rory actually die or maybe even just Amy dying and Rory leaving the Doctor permanently as a result could've been much more impactful as that moment is a great moment and would make the "together or not at all" line feel even more impactful as it has that bittersweet ending of they saved the world together, but are either both dead or worse still, not even together anymore. A lot of potential and a lot of great stuff, just didn't quite land properly with everything
I can definitely see people liking this episode if they're fans of the Pond family unit. I wasn't as attached to them myself (tho I did like Rory a lot), so I was mostly watching for the story. But even as someone who tries to turn their brains off when watching Who (I even enjoyed Dinosaurs on a Spaceship to a fair degree despite the story issues and how weird it was), Angels Take Manhattan was a little too.....weird for me. The setting is dope, but without even thinking too hard, alot of the oddities of the story were quickly apparent and made it hard for me to get into. I also felt that the Ponds jumping off the building is where the episode should have ended. The abruptness of the actual ending was a little too jarring and random for me. It was like hearing an off-note in a piano song. I did like the YT epilogue short with Rory's dad tho, I'm a YT fiend, so I didn't mind it not making it into the show.
id say a fix to the parodox/ fixed points issue is just saying that changing events isnt actually impossible. i think when the doctor says he cant do it, its more he means wont, because in doing so will create a parodox that would damage the universe. the flying dragon things with the 9th doctor, the cyberman cracks with tenth doctor or timelord crack with 11th doctor. he just doesnt want to cuase the universe damage with paradoxes such as ripping new york apart to save rory again with one more parodox. this is enforced with 12 saying " iknow when i can and i know when i cant" he can see whats small enough to get away with and what would be too big. as a time lord he can see the time travel equivelant of tapping someone and punching them. 10 has his timelord victorious phase where he feels he can change whar he wants because as the last one he can choose and rewrite all the consaquences, but the woman decides that the timeline must stay the same so she fixes it to the best she can, so while the "writing" changes slightly, it still says she dies rather than still being alive.
About that moment where Doctor healed River: you call it irredeemable, but I think that these moments in comparison show how much River cares for Doctor, she cares for him even more than she does for herself. To the point where she sacrificed all of her regenerations to save him from death (because you know, she kinda almost killed him for good), but pisses off when he wasted one of his whole regenerations just to heal her wrist. The viewers know that it's because Doctor cares for her in return, but River doesn't understand that yet, and she doesn't want to even listen (which is, I agree, kinda annoying). It's not Doctor-bad-River-good moment, it's a moment of different priority setting, which is understandable
He didn't use a while regeneration to heal her. He didn't have any left. He has enough residual energy to maintain his last life but this was his last. That's why she got so mad.
I also think it makes sense. She used her regenerative energy to SAVE HIS LIFE, he wouldve died otherwise. But He used his just to HEAL HER WRIST, it honestly couldve just healed in its own! She wouldve been fine either way, so its a waste.
I think this episode is beautifully written and, other than the overly-bombastic and strangely un-Moffaty inclusion of the Lady Liberty Angel, does the Weeping Angels justice. The noire setting suits the Angels perfectly and I think the battery farm concept is utterly terrifying since it takes away the one possible solace found in being a victim of the angels- having a happy life in the past as Kathy Nightingale did. Though the way it panned out was much more in line with their character journey and ending, the fear factor would've been more impactful if Amy was the one sent back to the past and living in the bed- we were too used to seeing Rory die at this point.
Great review as always. I feel much the same. You highlighted everything I thought of and some I hadn't. However I found River's reaction to the Doctor's "sacrifice" totally believable and realistic. People react differently when someone they love gives up something precious for them. Yes they appreciate the love but if that is some of their own life sacrificed they can also be incredibly angry, and that fits River down to the ground. Yes she did the same thing and if you remember he wasn't happy about it either - both in the past and in the future. As for the slap itself, not going to condone it but still in character.
Tbh I like that he clearly has realistic perceptions of relationships because irl ofc that’s out of line but seeing as it’s fictional and no real people get hurt I think seeing toxic relationships (which is basically every relationship w the doctor tbh) it’s easier to look past (idk how to phrase that in a better way) as idm seeing messy toxic dynamics in media I consume and river and the doctor are very similar so them both getting annoyed and being hypocritical seems realistic to me. Ofc irl it’s not okay and tbh irl I wouldn’t want anyone to really interact w a person like the doctor as whilst he’s a good person he isn’t good for others and the same w river she literally is like yeah I’ll murder people for money in her last episode. They’re both toxic people who happen to do good things most of the time so it makes sense their relationship wouldn’t be up to the same standards we hold for real life relationships. Idk if that makes complete sense but I agree w you
"This book I write, I assume I send this to Amy to get it published?" River sends the book she's going to write to be published which features all these fixed points. "going to write". She's not making it up, she sees what happens, and that's what establishes them as fixed.
I just have to say that while yes this episode has it's problems I personally love it. I love when the show manages to be really timey wimey, creepy and have a great character development all at once and to me this a prime example of that.
River, the author, is there. Future River is writing what already happened. The book isn't a fixed point. Reading what is going to happen is. Future River knows what they read and when they read it. The book about what already happened is changing as they are living it. River didn't write it yet. She is living through it. She doesn't write it until after Amy is sent back with Rory.
I never knew the title was reference to the Muppets, but considering his similarly sounding surname, should we be surprised Steven eventually went there? 😆
I mean, with the statue of liberty moving, we have to keep in mind its states they dont follow natural laws when not looked upon and move at very, very high speeds. The only reason they 'move slowly' when following someone is cause they enjoy the hunt
I think it'd be a funnier reading if the doctor DID try to rescue the ponds through conventional transportation and they just said 'no we're good' and he still went and moped and was emo about it in the snowmen
@@mayotango1317 I actually never got around to seeing the later seasons. Ive seen a few video essays on Chris Chibnall's seasons but Ive not watched them. Ive also not really watched the 12th doctor outside of the one episode with the 1st doctor crossover. Im also a relatively newer fan so Ive not seen all the stuff prior to the 9th doctor.. But Im definitely a fan of Matt Smith/the 10th doctor for the most part. And while I haven't seen his episodes at all I really like that one Doc with all the scarves! If I had a way to watch his seasons Id give it a try someday
I'm usually a great TV show viewer. I never realized the big plot holes and I can usually sit back and enjoy the entertainment. But I just couldn't look past the statue of liberty is somehow walking around Manhattan as a weeping angel. It just made zero sense to me and took me out of the whole episode
Alright so I disagree with this for a number of reasons. If I am wrong then you can comment why Fixed Points have been established, as far as I am aware. is if a specific event constitutes as "Large", then it can't be re-written, minor details surrounding the event can, but the actual fixed point cannot. River breaking her hand was known by the Doctor as he read it, so it became fixed. Him trying to use his regeneration to change a fixed point was stupid and could cause a lot of problems, and he did it because he wanted to change the point to prove he could, which is almost like a timelord victorious scene, which is why river attacked him. because she knew it was stupid. 10 knew Adelaide's death was fixed. but he saved her anyway, her death is the fixed point on that day, not her dying on mars. Therefore if she hadn't have killed herself it would've messed up the timeline, but because she killed herself the timeline was restored, and the universe could change the minor details surrounding her death. If River had broken her hand another way and not by an angel, it wouldn't have mattered. because the fixed point was her breaking her hand in the first place. The Doctor's death in the Impossible astronaut is a fixed point. because from that point onwards he can no longer travel back in time to save people. When he survives, the Doctor is then allowed to. which means that every person who died back in time and in the future all survive, and therefore time implodes on itself and causes everything to happen all at once. The reason this didn't happen with other points was because those characters couldn't travel backwards in time and therefore it was only the future that becomes scuffed. not all of time from beginning to end.
No. "Him trying to use his regeneration to change a fixed point" He wasn't trying to change a fixed point. River has already broken her wrist; the fixed point happened. And it wasn't even a proper fixed point - the kind you're talking about. The show presented fixed points in time as things that must happen no matter what, so they're objective. Here, *the Doctor* can't change the events, because *he* (well Amy actually but you get the point) has read them in a book. This doesn't imply in any way that these events couldn't be changed by an unrelated character, so it's not a proper fixed point like his death on that beach. Either way, it doesn't make sense for it to be inevitable like this. It was said before that Doctor's death was a fixed point, but Doctor figured out that really it was everyone *thinking* he died, and so, avoided dying. Similarly here, the only thing read aloud from the book was what Doctor told River. He could've said it and still save her. We see this kind of solution later in 12th Doctor's era, in "Before the Flood". Clara tells Doctor that his ghost appeared, leading him to believe that he has to die. He can't even escape in the TARDIS because it won't let him. But he figures out that he can just set up a hologram that looks and behaves exactly as he's been told his ghost does. This way he once again avoids a seemingly fixed death. This time even being subjectively fixed, like River's wrist.
Petty reasons I don't like this episode, 1. There was no reason to bring the Ponds back for series 3 just to write them out. Leave them out after the god complex. 2. More unnecessary rules about the angels. 3. The story is short and pointless. They literally go back in time find out where the angels live then go there then jump off the roof. It is a whole lot of nothing. Things that make no sense 1. How can the doctor use his regeneration on other people without a machine to help him? 2. How can the angels touch people more than once without them disintegrating? As an answer to Harbo's confusion about the book and fixed points. The reason Waters of Mars can be changed is because someone else writ it before the doctor showed up. This was written by River/Amy which means it was written after the doctor was already there once. If he went back again to change things he would cross his own timeline and cause the reapers to get into the universe again.
There are a couple of things that you've mentioned here that I don't believe to be correct. I'm pretty sure in the beginning of the episode when Rory sees River for the first time, she says "Hello Dad" (but I could be wrong.) Also in regards to it being written in the book and therefore cannot be changed being a contrast of adelade in the waters of mars- The doctor did not read his own personal future. The angels take manhatten make a point of saying that it cannot be changed because Amy had read her own personal future. The difference being that the doctor was never mentioned in the news reports, just adelade herself. She also died anyway, which contradicted the Doctor's point that he could do anything he wanted.
I can pretty much wholeheartedly agree with this review because before watching, I can only remember Amy and Rory’s departure without much acknowledgment for what else happened in the story. Heck, I even forgot about the Liberty Angel despite being flabbergasted by it upon first viewing. Up until the graveyard scene at the end, it’s all style over substance with only rough concepts to go off of. To me, this finale is just somewhat forgettable with several fun moments. Although, the minute Amy and Rory disappeared made me tear up when I was 12. 😅💔
Weird, because I remembered "angel farms" (it was best concept for me about weeping angels) and "don't read a book' idea. Which is more than I remember about DW episodes
hey, love your videos. you said you didn't understand why river slaps him, it's because the doctor being sappy when what was happening around them that was more important. she wanted him focused because she knew they were in a bad spot, plus she knew he knew that too. It's a big lesson she learned from him. later when the 12th was hanging out with Clara you REALLY see it. when they are trying to find Danny he looks at her and says I need you skeptical and the best instance was mummy on the orient express. Clara asks "so you were pretending to be heartless?" and he says "would you like to think that about me? would that make it easier?" Of all the things River learned from him, his clever detachment had probably the most recognized by her considering she was raised a phycopath.
Aside from the bastardization of all the weeping angel lore and rules in order to make the plot work, I really did love this episode for the characters, even though I definitely cried for ages because they built their friendship up so well that having it taken away just killed me. It doesn’t hurt that the idea and imagery of the Statue of Liberty, this thing that is so familiar in our lives, is actually a thing that watches and stalks you when you aren’t watching, and in plain daylight! is cosmically horrifying, IF you don’t think too much about it beyond that. Also, yes, Rory is an incredibly tragic character, and still so so warm hearted. Everytime I think about what he went through and how he showed his devotion and loyalty, it makes me want to cry. The fact that his character is criminally not done justice is almost a key part of his charm. In the end though , Amy wouldn’t let him go alone and we know how big of a sacrifice it is to say goodbye, and we also know for a fact that she doesn’t regret it. I do feel really bad for Brian too but we can only imagine the doctor tried to get some sort of message across off screen ;-;. Also; the way they set up the trio, I don’t think it would have ever been possible for the doctor to say goodbye to them unless he were forced to. They came off as though they were caught in a whirlwind of codependency and really felt like a family. Seeing the doctor look so secure and happy with them is just everything. But you’re right that Amy and Rory were definitely more secure/independent from the doctor than he was from them at that point, having their own normal human lives.
If the wanted the Statue of Liberty a weeping angel make it so that the statue doesn’t move but it can somehow take people who are inside it. It wouldn’t be a perfect solution but it would be a better solution than what was done in the episode
I dont think reading something in the book makes it a fixed point, its just that these thigns were fixed points already and that the book was evidence of that
But I thought they did explain it. The Winter Quay was such a powerful farm that the energy bled out and converted every statue in Manhattan into an angel. Was that said or did I make that up?
Honestly, for me the way I like to think about the expanded lore and abilities of the angels, there's different kinds of weeping angels that possess different capabilities.
Wait a minute! THIS is popular and highly acclaimed episode? That is honestly shocking to hear. I just rewatched it a few weeks ago with my young daughter. Even having previously watched it several times prior I had to really try my hardest not to physically cringe as it unfolded.
This episode is almost good, almost. I wish Moffat had given it one more rewrite and thorough check because we all only remember the ending and not the lead up to it. This review is the first time since the episode aired that I am remembering half this episode. Remembering the P.S scene I wish that had been the opening to this story. Imagine the day after Amy and Rory left with the Doctor after The Power of Three. Anthony turned up with a letter recounting the events of Manhattan along with Anthony giving further dialogue intercut throughout the story and then at the end it's revealed who he is along with Amy and especially Rory saying goodbye.
That would be even more amazing (and more emotional at the same time.) but I also wanna add that Amy Rory moment during Asylum of Darleks (not the beginning, I would have that be a thread up until angels take Manhattan) to the roof scene where they were about to jump. Amy would cry and say what she said, then she would also say “I don’t want you to live old without me” which would make her join him as they both fell off the roof. To me, that would be the best moment and making the weeping Angel scene make even more sense.
I love your channel, I like most of your critiques, even when I subjectively think you miss the point, you always have reasons to back your opinion. HOWEVER. How the hell is this episode (and Asylum) as bad as Dinosaurs on a spacehip? Lol. You crazy. Great breakdown tho.
River being upset at getting healed by the doctor using his regeneration energy is not out of character. This is very IN character for her since she doesn’t like the Doctor indangering himself in any way. More importantly.. anything that would take away from his already ending life (a couple hundred years off the back end) would be completely out of the question to the person who gave all of her lives to ensure he lived. River being upset at getting healed by the doctor using his regeneration energy is not out of character. This is very IN character for her since she doesn’t like the Doctor indangering himself in any way. More importantly.. anything that would take away from his already ending life (a couple hundred years off the back end) would be completely out of the question to the person who gave all of her lives to ensure he lived. Honestly the mere idea you’d call an admitted psychopath who revived the man she spent 20 plus years being groomed to kill just because she didn’t want to let such an incredible man go is unforgiving and extremely short sided which I never expected from you. But your dislike of River clouds your judgement on anything she does. More over.. this is just like a woman with a personality as fiercely independent & outspoken as hers would respond to the man she made that sacrifice for. To him it’s a couple hundred less years on top of his already century long life.. but to her it’s absolutely everything! By this time she had seen him rise higher than ever and fall harder and she had finally married her dream man. To find out he’s going to give up some of the life she gave him after taking it? Come on my guy! DO BETTER! -Falcon America
As for the hitting him scene. I always felt like it wasn't that she was upset he healed her. Rather she was upset that when she needed his help he yelled at her and told her to figure it out without breaking her wrist and not helping her come up with any other solutions. Leading her to hide her injury from him. Him healing the injury being a patronizing apology. But that was just my interpretation in watching it.
Tbh I hate this episode (not this video, it's good) because it ruins the Pond exit with complete nonsense and is it just me who wants companions to sometimes just be able to leave like so far only three companions across the entirety of New Who have been able to actually leave on their own terms and never become a permanent member of the Tardis crew again; Martha, Ryan and Graham. Martha's exit was separated from the other two by nearly 15 years. The timeloop makes literally no sense, I mean paradoxes cannot be part of a timeloop so the book should have no longer been accurate after the Ponds jumped off the building. If I was given authority over any ten minutes in the episode it would have been the ending and I would have had the Ponds tell the Doctor after the incredibly close call that they need to stop going on adventures with him or one of these days they will completely disappear from their friends and families' lives, they would have a tearful goodbye at the Ponds house having a dinner with River and the Doctor and Brian reminiscing over the adventures then the Doctor would leave promising to say hello now and then with River promising to hold him to that, end of episode. Now the Ponds have left permanently with the possibility of them returning for a cameo at some point in the distant future if Karen or Arthur are interested.
No, no no, it absolutely was not. The God Complex was the perfect ending. The Doctor realized he had to let them go, and he did. It broke all their hearts to say goodbye, but they did, and 11 had to try moving on with his life. What SHOULD have followed would be an episode focused on the Doctor's self reflection, seeing how he gets on without Amy and Rory, but instead we bring back bloody James Corden for some ill-timed comedy. Still, the series wrapped up nicely, and rory and amy got to come back one last time as part of the big finale wrap-up, and when all was said and done, the doctor quietly withdrew, and was resolved to solve the mystery of Trenzalore, perfectly setting up series 7. Bringing amy and rory back only to immediately "kill them", following a disconnected set of utterly forgettable adventures that didn't contribute to the trenzalore story at all, was just pointless. If it weren't for Clara's introduction in asylum of the Daleks, the entire first half of series 7 would be entirely skippable. There's just no real reason not to jump straight to _Bells of Saint John_ after _Wedding of River Song_. I did like _The Snowmen_ though. it's a bit incongruous without _Manhatten_ but whatever. ill just pretend it took a while for the doctor's sadness to catch up with him.
The key to enjoying Dr. Who is to watch it like a documentary and don't analyze it. Don't ask why this or why that, just accept it as it is. It is fictional after all.
I think Kenny had died about 6 times before eventually getting zapped by the statues. Moffat just could not let his companions die with about a dozen deaths but not one single permanent one amonst them.
It struck me as profoundly stupid. Amy and Rory "stuck" in the past. When the premise of the story involves a time machine. And the Doctor still has access to the TARDIS at the end of the episode, just go back and pick them up. They'd already had a farewell for Amy and Rory. They settled down and got on with life after the Wedding of River Song. Sure, they quickly found out that the Doctor was still alive and the Doctor visited for Christmas dinner, but they should have left it at that. Would leave them open to future guest appearances.
i thought the whole book thing was kinda like shrodingers cat in a way, where if you read the book the book the indeterminate superposition collapses and the future becomes set. But still moffat is an inconsistent writer when it comes to rules
I don't think he understands that the Statue of Angel is in a different timeline than the real life main timeline. There are in a timeline controlled by angels
No, it's not a good farewell and here the reasons 1-this episode was disappointing to begin with, because of how much underwhelming it was, while other departure episodes for companions, tend to be intense and epic without giving the viewers a break and the departure part, either if it's light hearted (like Martha's) or dark and dramatic, tend to do serve everyone right. this departure gave a huge dramatic goodbye, without anything else to progress it. so many messy things happened in this episode which has no weight whatsoever the way at the end you feel like nothing happened, except for the Amy and Rory part, but who can honestly not feel the leaving of two important characters? so it's not much of a compliment! I forgot who the villain was before even the half of the episode. and don't even get me started on how the Doctor immediately forgets about Rory, once he's zapped away from the screen 2-There were two episodes before which were brilliant for Amy and Rory's departure. The God Complex and the Christmas special. episodes which could give companions a healthy ending and potential to be reunited with the Doctor sometimes in the future, and such an ideas could be used in here as well, especially since the entire series 7A was showing how much Amy and Rory are living their lives and don't need the Doctor's whimsical world anymore and frankly the doctor behaved really in bothering and disturbing way in this half of the season towards them! they could finally have enough and tell him that they're living their lives and have a healthy goodbye like Martha and so many classic companions, but no! Moffat had to make it overdramatic and make the Doctor loose them forever and actors wanting to leave forever, isn't an excuse, because they could've done it, in episodes I just mentioned. well, the fact that all people remember about this episode is the exit scene, is totally earned and deserved. 3-don't even get me started on that whole weeping angels and how much their lore is destroyed in here and that Liberty statue making no sense, and how if we should believe Moffat's logic in those monsters, so many people in the entire world should fell victim to those because of many many photos taken of that statue and other statues in the rest of the New York and the world. yeah, believable! however among all of these messy things, there's one good thing about this episode! no I don't mean Amy and Rory's departure. I was glad that this incarnation of the Doctor, finally faced a true loss in this episode, after three seasons just everything being rainbows and unicorns for him with that couple. although it was fun for him, I can't really say the same thing about Amy and Rory, because they went though hell while travelling with him, while he at first mostly neglected them, then started taking them for granted and constantly bothering their normal lives once they left the Tardis. it was annoying watching the Doctor being so clingy to a couple who even admit that he's not enough in their lives to be considered a family and are obviously getting fed up with him for constantly disturbing their lives out of blue! seriously, I wouldn't have been surprised if eventually one of them just kicked him out of the house if their time was longer! the Doctor has said goodbye to so many people, although it did effect his mental state, but he knew he had to done it! and this incarnation couldn't just let go of two people was ridiculous to watch, therefore not only I didn't feel sorry for him, I think it was earned as well. and I absolutely hated how he made everything at the ending about Amy and even trying to make her stay. like as if he hasn't been watching her with Rory for years and hasn't learned already that she won't chose anyone over him. so good job, Moffat. you made the Doctor annoyingly clingy but gave him a deserved punishment as well.
Considering the state of the show since Chibnal I would strongly disagree with this episode being a D rating. It has it's issues but overall was a good sendoff for Rory and Amy. I would give it a B rating. River slapping the doctor is in character considering what came later and how she views his life and his energy as not to be risked for anyone, we see this overtly in the husbands of River Song. Even in the library with her first appearance where the doctor would have sacrificed himself to save everyone she punched him preventing him from doing so and instead sacrificed herself. So where you get the idea it is not in her character is beyond me, it was always in her character from the first time she appeared.
i like this episode i love the idea but i think it shouldnt have ended so that doctor saw them all old and doctor making false calculations and he didnt get in the real time when they got taken and how rory and amy say how they dont want to travel anymore
Here's the basic problem with making the statue of liberty into a weeping angel... it's in NYC and a massive statue... so unless everyone in Manhattan is blind and we do a ghosyltbusters 2 with it there is literally no way to shove it into the role of weeping angel.
But isn't that what life is like I agree with you on a lot of points pretty much everything and working towards a more natural exit only to be killed off and especially trying to give them that happy ending too it seems like it's trying to satisfy everyone although just the concept of them dying and not being able to tell the doctor that it's time to stop I think it works very very well the concept of traveling with the doctor is dangerous that they can't give it up and that's exactly what killed them in the end I find it to be somewhat fitting of the show in itself they have a life to get back to the doctor saying I can't take them away from that only to find that's exactly what he did the one thing he's been trying so hard not to do but giving into time and time again because he needs them I find that concept to just work I don't know I might like it even more than them choosing to stay behind
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shout at me here
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I don't see your issue with the healing river's wrist scene. People tend to be hypocritical in such situations. It's natural to feel angry when your loved one at least in your eyes, needlessly uses what amounts to a free cheat death card to heal a simple easy to deal with wound. Especially since her wrist would have healed naturally without the intervention.
Slapping is not quite the same as 'physical abuse' either, especially in the context. It's her reprimanding him, yes the doctor may not have gotten mad when she used up all her regens. but thats the point, she's got one life and understands the value of regenerations. It's not like she tsundere tsokoyomi'd him and kicked his face into a wall shattering it. It's at worst what older parents might do to discourage bad behaviors.
The natural hypocrisy of the human mind is about subjective view. It's not like River necessarily knew right away the doctor only had one regeneration after all. Heck the opener of the impossible astronaut acted as though he did have other regenerations. Everything that killed him was about 'cancelling the regeneration process'.
As for your complaints on the book... again it's not about just 'reading it in a random book'. It's the future can't be changed once the future is already known. Had they read the book and not even *realized* it was their future. No, the future would be flexible, but by reading it and recognizing it was the future. They lock their own future into place, the whole foresite is dangerous sorta deal. It's not the act of reading the book, it's the act of knowing the future.
The rest of your complaints are good thought
I think the best ending would have been where the Ponds do get zapped back in time and the doctor goes back to find them, and he does but they've both grown really old. This parallels how in the girl who waited, Amy had to grow old without Rory and how in this episode Rory had to grow old without Amy, but now they finally got to grow old together. I don't think for a companion to leave it has to be a big dramatic moment, and I think this would suit Amy and Rory better.
I actually really love that idea, I think that would have brought things full circle perfectly.
Would also be a cool call back to the girl in the fireplace when the doctor goes back but she’s already dead considering that is a Moffat episode
Someone should make an audio drama out of it.
like the ending of Peter Pan, when Peter comes back for Wendy but they are no longer the right age for each other, I like it
He tried to find them in The Return of Doctor Mysterio, I think
The Statue of Liberty being an Angel would have been fantastic as a "boss monster" for the Angels IF and only IF it is permanently locked because it has too many eyes on it. The plot of the story could then be the Angels attempting to pursue a plan that would blind the whole city (I'm thinking a sort of spy/detective thriller when the Doctor is attempting to find out who/what is trying to poison the water [or some other such plan]) with some alien pathogen that blinds the population (thus freeing the Angel of Liberty).
I'd watch that, that's an awesome idea
Unlike the last episode where it all fell apart at the end. This one all culminates in a beautiful finale with a very rough journey along the way.
Honestly hard agree, this episode is magnificent and one of my favourite 11th era episodes, every time I rewatch it, it feels like I'm watching it the first time again, the suspense never goes away and u think maybe just maybe the ponds would survive and the ending would be different (though the fake out good ending didn't help lol) but no. Although it sucks to get my heart broken over and over I still love this episode and cherish it, absolute masterpiece and a brilliant send off for the ponds.
I think that just shows how diverse this fanbases opinions can be. One man's treasure can be seen as a boring overlong slog to someone else, it's stuff like that makes me love being a Doctor who fan
@@matthodgkinson2003 Wish more ppl saw it like this.
In terms of the river scene, it's actually perfectly in character. It all goes back to what River would say in The Husbands of River Song. As a refresher in that scene River says that while she loves the doctor you can't expect the doctor to love her back since he's this god like being who never stays around long enough to get involved in people's lives. While it's her first time expressing this mentality in the show it's clear from all her adventures with the doctor that this is how she felt throughout all of them (expect for the library since that occurred after the husbands of river song for her). To her the doctor is everything. He is the love of her life the one that she grew up obsessing with and the magical mystery man that she wants to spend the rest of her life traveling with. So to her he is worth the regeneration energy. She believes that the doctor doesn't see her in that same way. She believes that she's just another human he can adore on and then just leave. So she believes that she isn't worth his regeneration energy which is why she slaps him for using it. Also in terms of River being amy and rory's kid never really being mentioned the problem is that River is only their kid by birth and nothing else. They never really got any hands on time with their daughter as melody was taken away from them immediately after she was born and then when they were growing up they had no idea they were being friends with their future daughter. And because of the timey wimyness of it all they just saw River as this mysterious person not as their daughter. So they never really got to be river's parents and they never really got to raise their kid so it makes sense that they really wouldn't have much of a parent-child relationship.
Yeah, that does make sense, although I did get the impression from the wedding of River Song that she would not all the time, but occasionally come and visit them when she knew that it was no longer a chance of her messing up the timeline with them knowing she was their daughter. And while it's a long time between those episodes, I can imagine Moffat having her view of him being like that at the back of his head, since I think he is actually the only person who wrote for episodes that have River in them because he did have a long term plan with her.
But the only thing that didn't make sense for me is why did she not start traveling with him after they died. I mean I understand in real world why, they were not going to have her become a full-time companion. And she does make that remark of why she won't travel with him all the time. But to me that would seem like the perfect time for them to actually truly travel together. I guess you can say her diary was nearly full so maybe it was actually she that ran away because she thought spending more time with him would mean the end would come that much sooner. We are just never given an actual in-world reason.
@@Bacbi tbh I feel like she said no because she knows them travelling together would be bad. They’re both similar and the doctor need companions who have morals that she doesn’t have to keep him in line (shown in episodes like mercy and w Donna). Whilst she wouldn’t change for him I think she probably has the awareness that it’s better if the see each other randomly instead of constantly as they’d negatively effect each other if they travel for hundreds of years w only each other. I think you also have a point w her running tho but I’d like to think she has also some awareness of the fact their relationship isn’t healthy as well. But thats just more wishful thinking than acc in cannon reason so take it w a pinch of salt
As clunky and rushed as that one episode was, didn’t they kinda raise her when she spent her whole life as their best friend? I mean Moffat really should have had her appear way back in season 5 and established her as their best friend named Melody in the wedding and probably a bachelorette party (heck or even bachelor party she seems the type to crash Rory’s).
@@vullord666 yes but they never realized that their best friend was their daughter. They had a friendship not a parent-child relationship.
@@Ems001 this but I also think it’s the fact that things would get really complicated really quick if River traveled with him full time and they ran into River at a different point in her time stream. While it is quite a ways away imagine if River was traveling with the doctor when The Husbands of River Song occurs. It would create all kinds of paradox’s and mess with time in a really big way. Her being so integral to the doctors timeline as well as the timey wimeyness of their timelines being all out of wack means that even tho that is towards the end of 11s timeline and that is probably her best bet of traveling with him, she doesn’t know if her future self has another encounter with this older doctor not that long afterwards.
I think the reason that once they read it, it can’t be changed is because River wrote the book and she’s also a part of the events she’s writing about. So once he reads it, he knows what she’s going to experience. Meanwhile for waters of mars, that was written by a journalist. Where a third party is concerned, what they write is as far as they know. So what happens can be changed and a journalist just reports it, it doesn’t make a difference to them whether the person they’re writing about died in x year or y year or where. But once they read what future River says happened, it has to happen to present River her for her to have been able to write it. (Idk maybe this is too deep and the writers just didn’t think it through but I think it makes sense when comparing these two cases)
No you're Def right. She was there, and is a primary source for the events, so it must happen because it did happen. But the journalist writing could change because he was only reporting about a death. Wasn't there and didn't no every detail, the bottom line was she dies. You're absolutely correct in you're thinking 💯
I mean even then Waters of Mars was about the Doctor learning he can't change events like that. So even if he had more wiggle room the overall point of working within the established time line sticks
EXACTLY. my god it's not that complicated, there's nothing wrong with this episode
No this makes no sense. Because there is no rile that says what you write down has to have really happened. Fantasy exists, River could have just written down lies. The idea that time itself seems to care what anyone writes down is insane.
because River is such an important person compared to a Journalist, right? A God who's words should happen? what if she lies?
people trying to excuse bad writing, just making it seem worse, is hilarious
Saying "the doctor did it in waters of Mars why can't he do it know?" Kinda goes against the entire point of the waters of mars
I think he’s more so saying that it worked differently in waters of mars, That’s just my interpretation though.
@@ember-september414 It didin't though. People died at the same time. People rewriting history is way too common. It was easier to rewrite history than to explain how she teleported to Earth and why she done suicide at the same day of expllosion of Mars base
See, I do like the idea of the Statue of Liberty being an angel. But I prefer it be suggested, and the only reason it hasn't moved is because its the city that never sleeps.
A Dr Who monster where the perfect prison is the being kept alone in a heavily populated area
Whilst I agree with a lot of your problems, there is one piece of almost cosmic horror that is rarely discussed in this episode. The set up of reading something makes it set in stone is not just for the final chapter of the book. No, it’s for a very brief moment where we can see Rory’s gravestone. That means that we the audience made his death the fixed point in time. We killed Rory. That’s something that you could say I’m reading into but everytime I see this episode and I see that gravestone it creates that fixed point in time.
Not really - don't remember exactly but either Rory or Amy does comment on the gravestone just before Rory is taken
@@xGOKOPx yes at the very end of the episode. However we the audience see it before the characters do.
Imagine if instead the angel being a statue was a factor in it's placement. It wasn't simply a gift, but a prisoner, sent to be the centre stage of one of the most active cities in the world, to be stood for all incoming boats and all the busy bodies, who are ignorant jailers, sealing an angelic diety in place. And the entire episode revolves around a secret cult of the weeping angels themselves, trying to free their god so they might reign over the people of earth, by shifting the earth itself INTO a quantum locked state, where the angels can move free of the humans gaze, so their entombed god may rise once more
Damn, that’s an awesome concept for an angel story.
Wow that’s cool
I love the lore that implies. I think the angels have a simple dynamic that works well and adding lore about their interactions and general biology (eg the image of an angel etc) just makes the stories more complicated. Adding lore of angel culture is interesting and that is such a missed opportunity.
Perhaps it could still be made into a novel or something and retroactively state that the angel god statue could only move due to the presence of the TARDIS.
Oh my God that's such a cool idea!
Your brain is beautiful
It’s mad how Moffat trips himself up with the regeneration energy thing. In The Impossible Astronaut, the Doctor begins to regenerate when shot (before the second shot kills him), and in this story he gives away regeneration energy to River to heal her arm. Buuuuut just over a year later, Moff writes in The Time of the Doctor that ‘11’ is actually his 13th and final incarnation (obvs ignoring much later revelations under another showrunner like in s12, etc). He also implied that he *knew* he was his last incarnation. Soooo what about those moments in …Astronaut and …Manhattan?
Real answer likely is Moff hadn’t thought of the ‘11 is 13’ yet, and wanted to build extra tension into Time… when that episode came around. But it makes all three of these instances muddy and contradictory.
The astronaut one can be explained as him still trying to keep the War Doctor a secret, as it wasn't actually him dying, it was the Tesselecta, and he wouldn't want them knowing about his secret incarnation.
This can be explained as him having enough regeneration energy for minor things such as healing injuries but not enough to actually fully regenerate (remember the regeneration in The Stolen Earth, while counting as one, wasn't exactly a complete regeneration, so it makes sense he'd have some excess regeneration energy)
9:33 River used all of her regenerations, so she knows perfectly well how important this energy can be. Also this probably was main reason why 11th was old in his last episode. But even during this episode River being upset on Doctor for wasting such precious rescources can be understable (at least was for me at the time of watching this episode for first time)
still, it's not like he was gonna miss a leg on his next regeneration or anything, since he literally didn't have any left
The fact that this episode even was a farewell for the Ponds *is* the most memorable part of the episode. That and the Weeping Statue of Liberty, talk about some King Kong/Godzilla-looking nightmare fuel. 😆The acting from Matt Smith and Karen Gillan was stellar at the end; the fact that Amy just so manages a quick "Good-bye" before vanishing forever makes her exit all the more of a gut punch, and the Doctor then collapsing to his knees shows true devastation. And again, since your discussion of the Ponds' expanded personal lives in last week's The Power of Three review, it's made me see this episode in an even more heartbreaking light. For instance: HOW THE HELL WAS BRIAN EXPECTED TO COPE WITH THE SUDDEN LOSS OF HIS SON (without Chris Chibnall's provided epilogue)?! 😑I wish it'd ended like you suggested, with them either deciding to leave on their own terms or the Doctor urging them to, ending with the Ponds continuing to live their own timeline.
I loved the scene with shot of the Angel over the graveyard, cutting to Rory looking back afterward (and it’s hard to notice on first watch). Such a quick, but great moment of build-up.
Short answer: No, it’s not a good farewell.
Especially when the running gag is just how much the smith era does not care about death until now lol.
But in all seriousness, it was a very emotional goodbye and yes I cried at the very end. But hey, you know what’s next ;D
*clara noises in the background*
Edit: On the topic of River song, her appearance here is actually a bit more significant just because finally, after so many adventures and stories, the doctor and River are on the same page. This story is all new to both of them and with neither of them knowing what’s happening it does up the antics just a bit more
If you're who I think you are, you've waited a long time for her; I hope her upcoming run of reviews is worth it! 😉
@@DJtheBlack-RibbonedRose Oh, I’m pretty sure they’re not really that good tbh, but I just have a really soft spot for Clara and eleven. Their run was so sweet and short.
@@RoyalKingOliver it was practically a series long. (Eight episodes, and 3 specials. That adds up to 11. The specials were over an hour long, so the added time amount to about an episode. So 12 episodes.
Series 7bs length is equal to 12 episodes, or in other words a whole series)
That's like saying you have a soft spot for ten and Donna because they didn't have a lot of episodes together.
And yes I am willing to spend my free time arguing against anyone who likes 7b instead of being productive how did you know?
@@RoyalKingOliver Understandable;. 12/Clara became a strong duo but we needed more 11/Clara. I remember The Snowmen being good (makes one for more Victorian Clara), and the episodes Hide and Journey to the Centre of the Tardis were decent too (though the latter I remember most for featuring modern Clara's prettiest look ❤).
@@yalieyal4362 That’s the thing! People don’t count the specials with 7b and it’s sooooo annoying!!
Do you know how better the series becomes when you include Day and Time of the Doctor? Oh my god thank you for acknowledging that! I feel like very few people do this because it doesn’t “fit” the rest of 7b even though like… EVERYTHING CULMINATES TO SMITH’S REGENERATION!!!
For me this story is extremely hard to rate. On one hand I think it is beautifully written and performed and has this Greek tragedy quality to it. I love that Amy and Rory survive the climax only to be taken randomly at the end, it reminds us how people can be taken from us unexpectedly in real life.
However, with the amount of times that Rory died beforehand it loses a lot of impact it would've had. Also while it's internally consistent I don't really think it makes sense as part of the wider show, seems like the doctor should just land in 1940 San Francisco or something and take a train to see them
"that Amy and Rory survive the climax only to be taken randomly at the end, it reminds us how people can be taken from us unexpectedly in real life." YES. I absolutely loved that about the episode. I didn't feel like it was repeating itself. The book also didn't bother me either. But the whole "I can never see you again" was such a distraction, that it really hurts the episode. It's like, it's not like they exist in one year or in one city forever.
To be honest the plot has more holes than Swiss cheese but it is otherwise incredibly well put together. You basically have to be able to suspend disbelief (read: want to suspend disbelief) and then it becomes an excellent episode
The Angels Take Manhattan is one of Steven Moffat's weakest scripts. It might even be his worst writing in Doctor Who. I really like the guy but there are so many plot holes in this story that the emotional moments and great performances don't make up for the fact that the writing is almost Chris Chibnall level incoherent. Thank goodness Moffat is humble enough to actually LEARN from his mistakes instead of doubling down. He was an inconsistent showrunner because some of his scripts were outright fantastic, with a few of them being some of the greatest Doctor Who stories in history, while others were so clumsily thrown together that it's hard to believe they were written by the same man.
@@tomnorton4277 The Empty Child is still one of my favourite episodes. Moffat seems to most struggle with bringing together over-branching stories, and plotlines. His one-off episodes are great, but, his actual storylines are awful imo.
I feel it had a Roman quality of falling on your sword for the greater good, which was really consistent with the Roman references all the way through re the Ponds, especially Rory. Of course, Rory would choose the Roman way to die! But yeah, Greek tragedy as well, the feeling of doom.
Excellent analysis, I always thought it was ass that The Ponds departure ended being all about Amy. Sure she and the Doctor had a special bond but Rory just gets shoved to the side. There's little to no acknowledgement of his loss too. It's such a disservice to his character and Arthur Darvill's work on the show. I can't wait to see your thoughts on the Capaldi era though. I know it's not perfect but I love Capaldi in the role very much.
This sums up my issue with Moffat and fixed points. He’s so inconsistent when he decides to do “you can’t do this!” and then go “oh I’ll do it! Play “I AM THE DOCTOR!” at a impossibly loud volume while I shoehorn a happy ending!”
Oh yes, love the episode overall, love the Ponds' departure, the acting from all 4 mains was fantastic. You just have to ignore the Statue of Liberty and don't try to figure out the logic of not being able to go back to 1938 NYC.
The thing about Weeping Lady Liberty that always bugged me was, how have people been climbing up in that thing all this time? At least the other Weeping Angels didn't humans (or presumably anything else) running about inside them!
Oh, and since Lady Liberty never covers her eyes, how are any Weeping Angels in Manhattan able to move?
And what about...?
Nevermind. Just ignore the whole Statue of Liberty thing.
Technically they can do anything even if they read the book. They just need to ensure the book has the exact same words and story, even if it’s wrong.
Also the doctor could just go back in time by like an hour or so and then put the grave stone there and then go back in time to get Amy and Rory
Wild idea, Amy and Rory move to Connecticut or something and the Doctor picks them up the following year, sends them home and leaves them there…I’ve never understood this ending…
My consensus on the episode will always be that Amy and Rory should have left in God Complex by their own choice and Doctor letting go (he did always act like a kid with his only two friends with them; it would have been great character development for 11 to let them go). Returning for Christmas dinner every year from the series 6 special would have been fantastic. Then start series 7 with that Christmas special and make Victorian Clara the companion (because she was leagues better than modern Clara and we need more companions from the past in New Who).
What annoys me about this episode is how everyone ignores the glaring issues because "it's so emotional". I'd argue that there are so many issues with the exit (as described in the video) that it completely undermines it.
In my opinion the Ponds leaving on their own terms wouldn't have made sense. Their relationship with the Doctor is more complicated than any other companion's is, and because of their lives being so intertwined, and because of certain aspects of Amy's character (being abandoned by the Doctor as a little girl was formative for her, and she seems pretty conflicted about the idea of growing up and moving on, probably because the man who abandoned her when she was a child did indeed come back for her eventually) they were not able to choose to move on of their own accord. So it makes sense that Amy was forced to make a choice between Rory and the Doctor, and what makes it heartbreaking is that she is clearly certain about her decision to choose Rory over the Doctor (who still seems to on some level entertain fantasies about being the favourite) yet she still extremely distressed by having to do this. Whatever choice she made, she breaks the heart of one of her boys and also her own. Basically the circumstances of her departure are fitting for her character arc and heartbreaking for the viewers because they are all about conflicts rather than empowerment and acceptance. She does eventually come to accept it, but that's not the heartbreaking moment, rather, that's her final stage of character development, moving on from her childhood imaginary friend - and she attempts (with meh results) to use her newfound maturity to help her childhood imaginary friend, who is eternally youthful (in this context read: immature) to do the same thing.
Plus Ponds had few episodes where they literally says "we choose you over normal boring life", so WHAT could change it so much? Baby? Leave it with grandad, noone will notice
I agree with you. Of all companions, Amy and Rory should have left on their own volition, to settle down, and have their own family.
I feel like Moffat doesn't understand that we're not supposed to agree with the Doctor. You have to grow up and accept endings. Moffat writes like a child sometimes. To him a companion having like a normal homelife they chose over the Doctor is silly or unthinkable.
I personally fully agree with the ranking. A companion exit is important, and they completely dropped the ball here. The only thing I remember when I think of this episode is how stupid the doctor was for thinking he couldn't save them. No other parts of the episode matter when the major plot point revolves around all the characters losing all their brain cells so the script can happen. It stops being memorable for anything else.
Cof Rose cof
@@mayotango1317 Who does Rose end up at the end of Doomdsay tho? Her family.
@@HiperPivociarz , throughout the RTD era the companions are melodramatically torn between traveling with the Doctor or living their normal lives.
And no, Rose didn't give a damn about her family, she wanted to travel with the Doctor forever...until they were melodramatically separated.
@@mayotango1317 But RTD didn't agree with Rose! He agreed with the Doctor that she should stay withher family.
Also, Rose loves her mom, where did you get the idea she doesn't care about her?
And we have Donna being forced into normalcy.
The only person who doesn't go on to have a normal life is Martha, and even she is stuck on Earth in the modern day, not in some fairytale romanticized noir past.
5:40 Imagine if that actually had been a stake in a weeping angel episode. Maybe not this one, but the ramifications of turning an iconic figure into a memetic hazard would be DISASTROUS. Too bad this episode probably prevents this danger from being explored.
I feel like the statue of litterby bit couldve been really cool if it had just been implied. Something like "Any statue could be an angel" "Any statue?" *Looks at the statue of liberty*
This episode would have been better if Moffat didn’t kill people off all the time but then bring them back
As much as I hate the ending, I see why they did it, they wanted there to be no way for a potential return whilst also not just straight up killing them off, they live out their days together, which is just about the most Amy / Rory ending ever.
I think this is the best companion farewell ever I love this episode I’m more of a person who likes sudden death and one’s you don’t know what’s going to happen I hate it when people announce there leaving I just prefer it when it’s a shock but when they announce a doctors leaving that’s different
12: fakes a regeneration for no reason with no consequences
11: uses a tiny bit of regeneration energy to help his wife only to get slapped by river
Because the Doctor had infinity regenerations because he is the Timeless Child .
@@mayotango1317 but the Doctor didn't know that in the 12th regeneration, they discovered it in the 13th incarnation. So it was very foolish to waste regeneration energy just to flex.
P. S. Also, Timeless child was a fever dream that do not exist
12. went blind, so there were consequences
@@ladrok97 the fake regeneration was after that blindness was fixed
Do you know what I hate? The whole “Once you’ve read it it must happen” thing makes no sense because technically Amy only read that he’d say something so once he’d said it, whether or not River’s hand was broken didn’t matter because what Amy said had become true!
It’s the perfect end to Amy’s story arch. She starts immature, not even sure she wants to get married. No parents. Then she grows up and starts giving herself to Rory. Really loving him. And then finally in this episode she has to choose between a mundane life stuck in the past with her husband or adventures with her “imaginary friend” The Doctor. She chose Rory because she had fully matured
Something that has always bothered me about this episode is Rory going to look at the grave before being zapped back in time. I never understood why he went back to look at the grave instead of just going into the TARDIS and getting out of there. Also, how did he miss the angel statue right in front of the grave?
Once he saw the grave, he was fucked either way with no way out. Also curiousity is strong
I do think this is a flawed exit. It had the potential to be along the lines of Rose in Doomsday in that both "died" trying to help save the day, but I think whilst it still has the emotional weight with the amazing music and the emotions from Smith and Gillan, I just think that having either both Amy and Rory actually die or maybe even just Amy dying and Rory leaving the Doctor permanently as a result could've been much more impactful as that moment is a great moment and would make the "together or not at all" line feel even more impactful as it has that bittersweet ending of they saved the world together, but are either both dead or worse still, not even together anymore. A lot of potential and a lot of great stuff, just didn't quite land properly with everything
I can definitely see people liking this episode if they're fans of the Pond family unit. I wasn't as attached to them myself (tho I did like Rory a lot), so I was mostly watching for the story. But even as someone who tries to turn their brains off when watching Who (I even enjoyed Dinosaurs on a Spaceship to a fair degree despite the story issues and how weird it was), Angels Take Manhattan was a little too.....weird for me. The setting is dope, but without even thinking too hard, alot of the oddities of the story were quickly apparent and made it hard for me to get into. I also felt that the Ponds jumping off the building is where the episode should have ended. The abruptness of the actual ending was a little too jarring and random for me. It was like hearing an off-note in a piano song. I did like the YT epilogue short with Rory's dad tho, I'm a YT fiend, so I didn't mind it not making it into the show.
id say a fix to the parodox/ fixed points issue is just saying that changing events isnt actually impossible. i think when the doctor says he cant do it, its more he means wont, because in doing so will create a parodox that would damage the universe. the flying dragon things with the 9th doctor, the cyberman cracks with tenth doctor or timelord crack with 11th doctor. he just doesnt want to cuase the universe damage with paradoxes such as ripping new york apart to save rory again with one more parodox. this is enforced with 12 saying " iknow when i can and i know when i cant" he can see whats small enough to get away with and what would be too big. as a time lord he can see the time travel equivelant of tapping someone and punching them. 10 has his timelord victorious phase where he feels he can change whar he wants because as the last one he can choose and rewrite all the consaquences, but the woman decides that the timeline must stay the same so she fixes it to the best she can, so while the "writing" changes slightly, it still says she dies rather than still being alive.
About that moment where Doctor healed River: you call it irredeemable, but I think that these moments in comparison show how much River cares for Doctor, she cares for him even more than she does for herself. To the point where she sacrificed all of her regenerations to save him from death (because you know, she kinda almost killed him for good), but pisses off when he wasted one of his whole regenerations just to heal her wrist. The viewers know that it's because Doctor cares for her in return, but River doesn't understand that yet, and she doesn't want to even listen (which is, I agree, kinda annoying). It's not Doctor-bad-River-good moment, it's a moment of different priority setting, which is understandable
He didn't use a while regeneration to heal her. He didn't have any left. He has enough residual energy to maintain his last life but this was his last. That's why she got so mad.
I also think it makes sense. She used her regenerative energy to SAVE HIS LIFE, he wouldve died otherwise.
But He used his just to HEAL HER WRIST, it honestly couldve just healed in its own! She wouldve been fine either way, so its a waste.
I think this episode is beautifully written and, other than the overly-bombastic and strangely un-Moffaty inclusion of the Lady Liberty Angel, does the Weeping Angels justice. The noire setting suits the Angels perfectly and I think the battery farm concept is utterly terrifying since it takes away the one possible solace found in being a victim of the angels- having a happy life in the past as Kathy Nightingale did. Though the way it panned out was much more in line with their character journey and ending, the fear factor would've been more impactful if Amy was the one sent back to the past and living in the bed- we were too used to seeing Rory die at this point.
Great review as always. I feel much the same. You highlighted everything I thought of and some I hadn't. However I found River's reaction to the Doctor's "sacrifice" totally believable and realistic. People react differently when someone they love gives up something precious for them. Yes they appreciate the love but if that is some of their own life sacrificed they can also be incredibly angry, and that fits River down to the ground. Yes she did the same thing and if you remember he wasn't happy about it either - both in the past and in the future. As for the slap itself, not going to condone it but still in character.
Tbh I like that he clearly has realistic perceptions of relationships because irl ofc that’s out of line but seeing as it’s fictional and no real people get hurt I think seeing toxic relationships (which is basically every relationship w the doctor tbh) it’s easier to look past (idk how to phrase that in a better way) as idm seeing messy toxic dynamics in media I consume and river and the doctor are very similar so them both getting annoyed and being hypocritical seems realistic to me. Ofc irl it’s not okay and tbh irl I wouldn’t want anyone to really interact w a person like the doctor as whilst he’s a good person he isn’t good for others and the same w river she literally is like yeah I’ll murder people for money in her last episode. They’re both toxic people who happen to do good things most of the time so it makes sense their relationship wouldn’t be up to the same standards we hold for real life relationships. Idk if that makes complete sense but I agree w you
"This book I write, I assume I send this to Amy to get it published?" River sends the book she's going to write to be published which features all these fixed points. "going to write". She's not making it up, she sees what happens, and that's what establishes them as fixed.
I just have to say that while yes this episode has it's problems I personally love it. I love when the show manages to be really timey wimey, creepy and have a great character development all at once and to me this a prime example of that.
River, the author, is there. Future River is writing what already happened. The book isn't a fixed point. Reading what is going to happen is. Future River knows what they read and when they read it. The book about what already happened is changing as they are living it. River didn't write it yet. She is living through it. She doesn't write it until after Amy is sent back with Rory.
I never knew the title was reference to the Muppets, but considering his similarly sounding surname, should we be surprised Steven eventually went there? 😆
I mean, with the statue of liberty moving, we have to keep in mind its states they dont follow natural laws when not looked upon and move at very, very high speeds. The only reason they 'move slowly' when following someone is cause they enjoy the hunt
I think it'd be a funnier reading if the doctor DID try to rescue the ponds through conventional transportation and they just said 'no we're good' and he still went and moped and was emo about it in the snowmen
I remember when my mom first watched this episode, she cried for a solid 5 hours and couldn't even speak.
So glad you mentioned P.S, so wish they filmed it.
Rory's death was incredibly dumb after all the fakeouts prior. Basically made me stop watching the show.
So, you love the Chinball era?
@@mayotango1317 I actually never got around to seeing the later seasons. Ive seen a few video essays on Chris Chibnall's seasons but Ive not watched them. Ive also not really watched the 12th doctor outside of the one episode with the 1st doctor crossover.
Im also a relatively newer fan so Ive not seen all the stuff prior to the 9th doctor.. But Im definitely a fan of Matt Smith/the 10th doctor for the most part. And while I haven't seen his episodes at all I really like that one Doc with all the scarves! If I had a way to watch his seasons Id give it a try someday
I'm usually a great TV show viewer. I never realized the big plot holes and I can usually sit back and enjoy the entertainment. But I just couldn't look past the statue of liberty is somehow walking around Manhattan as a weeping angel. It just made zero sense to me and took me out of the whole episode
Alright so I disagree with this for a number of reasons. If I am wrong then you can comment why
Fixed Points have been established, as far as I am aware. is if a specific event constitutes as "Large", then it can't be re-written, minor details surrounding the event can, but the actual fixed point cannot. River breaking her hand was known by the Doctor as he read it, so it became fixed. Him trying to use his regeneration to change a fixed point was stupid and could cause a lot of problems, and he did it because he wanted to change the point to prove he could, which is almost like a timelord victorious scene, which is why river attacked him. because she knew it was stupid.
10 knew Adelaide's death was fixed. but he saved her anyway, her death is the fixed point on that day, not her dying on mars. Therefore if she hadn't have killed herself it would've messed up the timeline, but because she killed herself the timeline was restored, and the universe could change the minor details surrounding her death. If River had broken her hand another way and not by an angel, it wouldn't have mattered. because the fixed point was her breaking her hand in the first place.
The Doctor's death in the Impossible astronaut is a fixed point. because from that point onwards he can no longer travel back in time to save people. When he survives, the Doctor is then allowed to. which means that every person who died back in time and in the future all survive, and therefore time implodes on itself and causes everything to happen all at once. The reason this didn't happen with other points was because those characters couldn't travel backwards in time and therefore it was only the future that becomes scuffed. not all of time from beginning to end.
No.
"Him trying to use his regeneration to change a fixed point"
He wasn't trying to change a fixed point. River has already broken her wrist; the fixed point happened. And it wasn't even a proper fixed point - the kind you're talking about. The show presented fixed points in time as things that must happen no matter what, so they're objective. Here, *the Doctor* can't change the events, because *he* (well Amy actually but you get the point) has read them in a book. This doesn't imply in any way that these events couldn't be changed by an unrelated character, so it's not a proper fixed point like his death on that beach.
Either way, it doesn't make sense for it to be inevitable like this. It was said before that Doctor's death was a fixed point, but Doctor figured out that really it was everyone *thinking* he died, and so, avoided dying. Similarly here, the only thing read aloud from the book was what Doctor told River. He could've said it and still save her. We see this kind of solution later in 12th Doctor's era, in "Before the Flood". Clara tells Doctor that his ghost appeared, leading him to believe that he has to die. He can't even escape in the TARDIS because it won't let him. But he figures out that he can just set up a hologram that looks and behaves exactly as he's been told his ghost does. This way he once again avoids a seemingly fixed death. This time even being subjectively fixed, like River's wrist.
Petty reasons I don't like this episode,
1. There was no reason to bring the Ponds back for series 3 just to write them out. Leave them out after the god complex.
2. More unnecessary rules about the angels.
3. The story is short and pointless. They literally go back in time find out where the angels live then go there then jump off the roof. It is a whole lot of nothing.
Things that make no sense
1. How can the doctor use his regeneration on other people without a machine to help him?
2. How can the angels touch people more than once without them disintegrating?
As an answer to Harbo's confusion about the book and fixed points. The reason Waters of Mars can be changed is because someone else writ it before the doctor showed up. This was written by River/Amy which means it was written after the doctor was already there once. If he went back again to change things he would cross his own timeline and cause the reapers to get into the universe again.
I wonder why the original ending scene couldn't be filmed.
There are a couple of things that you've mentioned here that I don't believe to be correct. I'm pretty sure in the beginning of the episode when Rory sees River for the first time, she says "Hello Dad" (but I could be wrong.)
Also in regards to it being written in the book and therefore cannot be changed being a contrast of adelade in the waters of mars- The doctor did not read his own personal future. The angels take manhatten make a point of saying that it cannot be changed because Amy had read her own personal future. The difference being that the doctor was never mentioned in the news reports, just adelade herself. She also died anyway, which contradicted the Doctor's point that he could do anything he wanted.
Amy and Rory deserved a better ending and PS deserved to be filmed. Those are my only notes on this episode.
I can pretty much wholeheartedly agree with this review because before watching, I can only remember Amy and Rory’s departure without much acknowledgment for what else happened in the story. Heck, I even forgot about the Liberty Angel despite being flabbergasted by it upon first viewing. Up until the graveyard scene at the end, it’s all style over substance with only rough concepts to go off of. To me, this finale is just somewhat forgettable with several fun moments. Although, the minute Amy and Rory disappeared made me tear up when I was 12. 😅💔
Weird, because I remembered "angel farms" (it was best concept for me about weeping angels) and "don't read a book' idea. Which is more than I remember about DW episodes
hey, love your videos. you said you didn't understand why river slaps him, it's because the doctor being sappy when what was happening around them that was more important. she wanted him focused because she knew they were in a bad spot, plus she knew he knew that too. It's a big lesson she learned from him.
later when the 12th was hanging out with Clara you REALLY see it. when they are trying to find Danny he looks at her and says I need you skeptical and the best instance was mummy on the orient express. Clara asks "so you were pretending to be heartless?" and he says "would you like to think that about me? would that make it easier?" Of all the things River learned from him, his clever detachment had probably the most recognized by her considering she was raised a phycopath.
Despite the story not making a ton of sense I like this episode because of its setting and acting as well as I just like the weeping angels :3
Aside from the bastardization of all the weeping angel lore and rules in order to make the plot work, I really did love this episode for the characters, even though I definitely cried for ages because they built their friendship up so well that having it taken away just killed me.
It doesn’t hurt that the idea and imagery of the Statue of Liberty, this thing that is so familiar in our lives, is actually a thing that watches and stalks you when you aren’t watching, and in plain daylight! is cosmically horrifying, IF you don’t think too much about it beyond that.
Also, yes, Rory is an incredibly tragic character, and still so so warm hearted. Everytime I think about what he went through and how he showed his devotion and loyalty, it makes me want to cry. The fact that his character is criminally not done justice is almost a key part of his charm. In the end though , Amy wouldn’t let him go alone and we know how big of a sacrifice it is to say goodbye, and we also know for a fact that she doesn’t regret it. I do feel really bad for Brian too but we can only imagine the doctor tried to get some sort of message across off screen ;-;. Also; the way they set up the trio, I don’t think it would have ever been possible for the doctor to say goodbye to them unless he were forced to. They came off as though they were caught in a whirlwind of codependency and really felt like a family. Seeing the doctor look so secure and happy with them is just everything. But you’re right that Amy and Rory were definitely more secure/independent from the doctor than he was from them at that point, having their own normal human lives.
If the wanted the Statue of Liberty a weeping angel make it so that the statue doesn’t move but it can somehow take people who are inside it. It wouldn’t be a perfect solution but it would be a better solution than what was done in the episode
I dont think reading something in the book makes it a fixed point, its just that these thigns were fixed points already and that the book was evidence of that
The Statue of Liberty thing right at the start made me not take anything in the episode seriously
Especially since it is made of metal. That always annoyed me.
But I thought they did explain it. The Winter Quay was such a powerful farm that the energy bled out and converted every statue in Manhattan into an angel. Was that said or did I make that up?
Honestly, for me the way I like to think about the expanded lore and abilities of the angels, there's different kinds of weeping angels that possess different capabilities.
Wait a minute! THIS is popular and highly acclaimed episode? That is honestly shocking to hear. I just rewatched it a few weeks ago with my young daughter. Even having previously watched it several times prior I had to really try my hardest not to physically cringe as it unfolded.
FINALLY SOMEONE MENTIONED THE WHOLE STATUE OF LIBERTY DEBACLE, IT ALWAYS ANNOYED ME SO GREATLY! THANK YOU! THANK YOU FOR GIVING ME VALIDATION!
This episode is almost good, almost. I wish Moffat had given it one more rewrite and thorough check because we all only remember the ending and not the lead up to it. This review is the first time since the episode aired that I am remembering half this episode.
Remembering the P.S scene I wish that had been the opening to this story. Imagine the day after Amy and Rory left with the Doctor after The Power of Three. Anthony turned up with a letter recounting the events of Manhattan along with Anthony giving further dialogue intercut throughout the story and then at the end it's revealed who he is along with Amy and especially Rory saying goodbye.
That would be even more amazing (and more emotional at the same time.) but I also wanna add that Amy Rory moment during Asylum of Darleks (not the beginning, I would have that be a thread up until angels take Manhattan) to the roof scene where they were about to jump. Amy would cry and say what she said, then she would also say “I don’t want you to live old without me” which would make her join him as they both fell off the roof. To me, that would be the best moment and making the weeping Angel scene make even more sense.
I don't like this episode, but Amy and Rory's farewell at the end redeems this episode for me. It just gets me
ive always seen fixed points as "SOMETHING has to happen"
in the water of mars case
the fixed point was that the crew died
not HOW the crew die
I love your channel, I like most of your critiques, even when I subjectively think you miss the point, you always have reasons to back your opinion. HOWEVER. How the hell is this episode (and Asylum) as bad as Dinosaurs on a spacehip? Lol. You crazy. Great breakdown tho.
Pop...POPULARITY?? Where? Who is out here loving this one?
I must say I love this one, but it may just be because the last 15 minutes is a beautiful end to the Ponds (at least in my opinion lol)
Honestly I always preferred 7B over 7A, but I like this episode
Lots of DH episodes have made me cry. This was not one of them.
River being upset at getting healed by the doctor using his regeneration energy is not out of character. This is very IN character for her since she doesn’t like the Doctor indangering himself in any way. More importantly.. anything that would take away from his already ending life (a couple hundred years off the back end) would be completely out of the question to the person who gave all of her lives to ensure he lived.
River being upset at getting healed by the doctor using his regeneration energy is not out of character. This is very IN character for her since she doesn’t like the Doctor indangering himself in any way. More importantly.. anything that would take away from his already ending life (a couple hundred years off the back end) would be completely out of the question to the person who gave all of her lives to ensure he lived.
Honestly the mere idea you’d call an admitted psychopath who revived the man she spent 20 plus years being groomed to kill just because she didn’t want to let such an incredible man go is unforgiving and extremely short sided which I never expected from you. But your dislike of River clouds your judgement on anything she does.
More over.. this is just like a woman with a personality as fiercely independent & outspoken as hers would respond to the man she made that sacrifice for. To him it’s a couple hundred less years on top of his already century long life.. but to her it’s absolutely everything! By this time she had seen him rise higher than ever and fall harder and she had finally married her dream man. To find out he’s going to give up some of the life she gave him after taking it? Come on my guy!
DO BETTER!
-Falcon America
I remember watching this year's ago, it's been a while, good episode? Gotta re-watch it.
As for the hitting him scene. I always felt like it wasn't that she was upset he healed her. Rather she was upset that when she needed his help he yelled at her and told her to figure it out without breaking her wrist and not helping her come up with any other solutions. Leading her to hide her injury from him. Him healing the injury being a patronizing apology. But that was just my interpretation in watching it.
Tbh I hate this episode (not this video, it's good) because it ruins the Pond exit with complete nonsense and is it just me who wants companions to sometimes just be able to leave like so far only three companions across the entirety of New Who have been able to actually leave on their own terms and never become a permanent member of the Tardis crew again; Martha, Ryan and Graham. Martha's exit was separated from the other two by nearly 15 years.
The timeloop makes literally no sense, I mean paradoxes cannot be part of a timeloop so the book should have no longer been accurate after the Ponds jumped off the building. If I was given authority over any ten minutes in the episode it would have been the ending and I would have had the Ponds tell the Doctor after the incredibly close call that they need to stop going on adventures with him or one of these days they will completely disappear from their friends and families' lives, they would have a tearful goodbye at the Ponds house having a dinner with River and the Doctor and Brian reminiscing over the adventures then the Doctor would leave promising to say hello now and then with River promising to hold him to that, end of episode.
Now the Ponds have left permanently with the possibility of them returning for a cameo at some point in the distant future if Karen or Arthur are interested.
No, no no, it absolutely was not.
The God Complex was the perfect ending. The Doctor realized he had to let them go, and he did. It broke all their hearts to say goodbye, but they did, and 11 had to try moving on with his life. What SHOULD have followed would be an episode focused on the Doctor's self reflection, seeing how he gets on without Amy and Rory, but instead we bring back bloody James Corden for some ill-timed comedy. Still, the series wrapped up nicely, and rory and amy got to come back one last time as part of the big finale wrap-up, and when all was said and done, the doctor quietly withdrew, and was resolved to solve the mystery of Trenzalore, perfectly setting up series 7.
Bringing amy and rory back only to immediately "kill them", following a disconnected set of utterly forgettable adventures that didn't contribute to the trenzalore story at all, was just pointless. If it weren't for Clara's introduction in asylum of the Daleks, the entire first half of series 7 would be entirely skippable.
There's just no real reason not to jump straight to _Bells of Saint John_ after _Wedding of River Song_.
I did like _The Snowmen_ though. it's a bit incongruous without _Manhatten_ but whatever. ill just pretend it took a while for the doctor's sadness to catch up with him.
Did you not see the gravestone?
Moffat killed them both, he just gave them a 50 year unseen epilogue.
The key to enjoying Dr. Who is to watch it like a documentary and don't analyze it. Don't ask why this or why that, just accept it as it is. It is fictional after all.
Well, River was probably angry since we have yet to see her previous encounters.
I think Kenny had died about 6 times before eventually getting zapped by the statues. Moffat just could not let his companions die with about a dozen deaths but not one single permanent one amonst them.
It struck me as profoundly stupid.
Amy and Rory "stuck" in the past.
When the premise of the story involves a time machine. And the Doctor still has access to the TARDIS at the end of the episode, just go back and pick them up.
They'd already had a farewell for Amy and Rory. They settled down and got on with life after the Wedding of River Song.
Sure, they quickly found out that the Doctor was still alive and the Doctor visited for Christmas dinner, but they should have left it at that.
Would leave them open to future guest appearances.
Can’t really blame Moffat for not wanting to kill off characters. Pretty sure the last companion to die was Adric and no one ever talks about him.
Danny Pink
Watching this video made me wonder: is it just me or did others remember the title for this episode being "The Angels of Manhattan"?
i thought the whole book thing was kinda like shrodingers cat in a way, where if you read the book the book the indeterminate superposition collapses and the future becomes set. But still moffat is an inconsistent writer when it comes to rules
I feel like this episode just limps to the final scene.
Moffatt realized he couldn’t kill them off and bring them back in a future episode, so he killed them and brought them back in one episode.
I don't think he understands that the Statue of Angel is in a different timeline than the real life main timeline. There are in a timeline controlled by angels
It was a shit ending and a shit story. Rory and Amy Williams deserved better
The Statue of Liberty CAN move through New York because eyy it was walkin ovah here!
No, it's not a good farewell and here the reasons
1-this episode was disappointing to begin with, because of how much underwhelming it was, while other departure episodes for companions, tend to be intense and epic without giving the viewers a break and the departure part, either if it's light hearted (like Martha's) or dark and dramatic, tend to do serve everyone right. this departure gave a huge dramatic goodbye, without anything else to progress it. so many messy things happened in this episode which has no weight whatsoever the way at the end you feel like nothing happened, except for the Amy and Rory part, but who can honestly not feel the leaving of two important characters? so it's not much of a compliment! I forgot who the villain was before even the half of the episode. and don't even get me started on how the Doctor immediately forgets about Rory, once he's zapped away from the screen
2-There were two episodes before which were brilliant for Amy and Rory's departure. The God Complex and the Christmas special. episodes which could give companions a healthy ending and potential to be reunited with the Doctor sometimes in the future, and such an ideas could be used in here as well, especially since the entire series 7A was showing how much Amy and Rory are living their lives and don't need the Doctor's whimsical world anymore and frankly the doctor behaved really in bothering and disturbing way in this half of the season towards them! they could finally have enough and tell him that they're living their lives and have a healthy goodbye like Martha and so many classic companions, but no! Moffat had to make it overdramatic and make the Doctor loose them forever and actors wanting to leave forever, isn't an excuse, because they could've done it, in episodes I just mentioned. well, the fact that all people remember about this episode is the exit scene, is totally earned and deserved.
3-don't even get me started on that whole weeping angels and how much their lore is destroyed in here and that Liberty statue making no sense, and how if we should believe Moffat's logic in those monsters, so many people in the entire world should fell victim to those because of many many photos taken of that statue and other statues in the rest of the New York and the world. yeah, believable!
however among all of these messy things, there's one good thing about this episode! no I don't mean Amy and Rory's departure. I was glad that this incarnation of the Doctor, finally faced a true loss in this episode, after three seasons just everything being rainbows and unicorns for him with that couple. although it was fun for him, I can't really say the same thing about Amy and Rory, because they went though hell while travelling with him, while he at first mostly neglected them, then started taking them for granted and constantly bothering their normal lives once they left the Tardis. it was annoying watching the Doctor being so clingy to a couple who even admit that he's not enough in their lives to be considered a family and are obviously getting fed up with him for constantly disturbing their lives out of blue! seriously, I wouldn't have been surprised if eventually one of them just kicked him out of the house if their time was longer! the Doctor has said goodbye to so many people, although it did effect his mental state, but he knew he had to done it! and this incarnation couldn't just let go of two people was ridiculous to watch, therefore not only I didn't feel sorry for him, I think it was earned as well. and I absolutely hated how he made everything at the ending about Amy and even trying to make her stay. like as if he hasn't been watching her with Rory for years and hasn't learned already that she won't chose anyone over him. so good job, Moffat. you made the Doctor annoyingly clingy but gave him a deserved punishment as well.
Considering the state of the show since Chibnal I would strongly disagree with this episode being a D rating. It has it's issues but overall was a good sendoff for Rory and Amy. I would give it a B rating.
River slapping the doctor is in character considering what came later and how she views his life and his energy as not to be risked for anyone, we see this overtly in the husbands of River Song. Even in the library with her first appearance where the doctor would have sacrificed himself to save everyone she punched him preventing him from doing so and instead sacrificed herself.
So where you get the idea it is not in her character is beyond me, it was always in her character from the first time she appeared.
I wonder if the statue has to have a face or eyes because imagine the statues of planes
Only just noticed that at 17:59 they used the wrong digital tardis model again
i like this episode i love the idea but i think it shouldnt have ended so that doctor saw them all old and doctor making false calculations and he didnt get in the real time when they got taken and how rory and amy say how they dont want to travel anymore
Here's the basic problem with making the statue of liberty into a weeping angel... it's in NYC and a massive statue... so unless everyone in Manhattan is blind and we do a ghosyltbusters 2 with it there is literally no way to shove it into the role of weeping angel.
This was better than daleks in Manhattan and evoution of the daleks and now on to the snowmen
A return to form. Well done.
But isn't that what life is like I agree with you on a lot of points pretty much everything and working towards a more natural exit only to be killed off and especially trying to give them that happy ending too it seems like it's trying to satisfy everyone although just the concept of them dying and not being able to tell the doctor that it's time to stop I think it works very very well the concept of traveling with the doctor is dangerous that they can't give it up and that's exactly what killed them in the end I find it to be somewhat fitting of the show in itself they have a life to get back to the doctor saying I can't take them away from that only to find that's exactly what he did the one thing he's been trying so hard not to do but giving into time and time again because he needs them I find that concept to just work I don't know I might like it even more than them choosing to stay behind