It's really strange how Chris Gordon kept saying something to the effect of "I can have conversations and be friendly with my enemies"... like 2 or 3 times in the debate with Doug Wilson/Jared Longshore. Super strange, and yet -- very telling.
Yeah I was waiting for him to be like, “not that I’m saying you guys are enemies.” Who knows though maybe we’re looking too far into it but I thought it was strange as well.
Idk. Can’t really give praise for Chris doing this interview. It seems by his manipulative questions that he didn’t have Doug on to “clear things up” but to win the argument , per se. Even Stephen acknowledges he uses providential will when it’s convenient and prescriptive will when it’s convenient. That’s not honest in any aspect.
I think any time those with opposing views agree to discuss their differences, it's a good thing. I applaud Chris for stepping up regardless of his pointed questions. The discussion was cordial
Would you be willing to explain the Warren court, its rulings/doctrines, and how we are affected by it today? You reference it a lot, and I am not as familiar as I would like to be.
What frustrates me, is how Gordon treats Doug as if Doug doesn’t believe in the providence of God, as if Doug is some type of Open Theist. Like saying Jesus can’t do what he wants. It’s disingenuous at best and at worst Chris does not want to represent Doug correctly because Chris thinks Doug “IS” his enemy. Also, when Doug points out the misrepresentation it’s just dismissed with well what I want to get to is…..and then the topic is changed. I’m glad that Doug finally got to have a conversation with these folks, but I don’t think it was fruitful at all.
I wish they asked Chris at various points what is it that he's valuing / trying to protect behind his questions. What are the primary values in the view that Chris is representing? Because it's very clear what Doug and Jared value.
Please don't make me relive that self-aggrandizing, effeminately manipulative atrocity of a debate staged by Captain Concern and his edifice if leather-bound volumes. Just tell homie to say thanks for the view count and let's be done with it.
I think it is amazing that Chris had the courage to do this debate and meeting with Doug. Especially as one of the members of his congregation, last time I checked, is Scott Clark. So I give Chris much kudos for this!
In regards to "using" God as one "wants" that Gordan claims the Nationalists are doing poorly causes me to wonder what King David would of thought about Gordan's claim of foul as David the shepherd boy stood up against Goliath when the Israelites who hadn't the faith to stand up to them did so in honor of God.. Yes the Israelites learned a lesson that day too, as Gordon puts it and possibly Gordan might also learn a lesson about not standing for God. Yes. as Wolfe says, God wants the 'good of His people' and He to be honored.
Yeah that DW and AG was difficult to watch.. agreeing the bouncing around and some of what this guy tried to explain was hard to follow. As Doug says punching right is a shame. Thanks for explaining! Definitely needed more clarity!
Gordon doesn’t seem to understand the very simple premise that “Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit…” At one point he suggested that everyone should be praying on their knees in tears because of the condition of our nation. But no, that can’t be true. Some of us should be praying on our knees in tears and others of us should be strategizing responses and instigations and provocations while still others should be running the spiritual hospitals for those ruined by our culture who need compassion and time to heal and still others should be in the smithy, hammering away at fashioning the weapons of our warfare. And there are likely a hundred other things “we should all” be doing. He didn’t seem to have room for the idea that his calling, giftedness, personality, and perspective might be different from Doug’s by the will of God and that the folks who are attracted to his ministry are likely those kinds of people who will set about praying while the people attracted to Doug’s ministry are those who will set about poking the secular gods in the eye.
As I understand them, Plato and Aristotle practically make the State the interpreter and arbiter of divine order-so that even with a transcendent divinity, the State will have final say on what that order is. Christianity, by contrast, has a sphere sovereignty that allows Church to challenge State (and vice versa) to ensure against tyranny of a monolithic order?
Wolfe's audio was not "fine." It had/had a strange pumping sound as if he was moving closer and further away from the microphone. I thought that's what it was caused by but then I noticed that other times he wasn't moving. You are right, though, I can hear it, but it just has that strange effect.
Good point about political solutions not being incompatible with the highest good or old fashioned Christian gospel and piety. I think Gordon and maybe Wilson are worried about “political” meaning the sort of Machiavellian power games being used by the Left as opposed to the structured political order of the Republic. Perhaps some people fear that identity politics will become a tool of Christian political actors?
On the "downplaying of power" idea that you thought Doug had once agreed with you and now wonder about his agreement I think was a gift to Gordan to draw the sides together. A chat comment by Scott M. points out a scripture indicating there is to be power there and in action not just words.
I'm kind of confused on the priestly or not priestly. I thought in Romans 13 Paul considers government as His ministers. Plus the idea as Christs body are we not priests with Him?
Stephen - are you familiar with Jean-Marc Berthoud’s little book “Authority in the Christian Life”? I found it to be very insightful. Here’s a quote that I thought relevant to this discussion: “It is through the application of the divine order by this power of divine origin, instituted by God Himself, that God’s requirements for justice for our world are revealed. Thus, by the righteous power of the sword, the wrongdoer is punished and the just person is praised.” In other words, the state cannot save a soul at the point of a sword but it does play a massive and central role in informing a nation’s moral compass.
Do you see any difference between pre-Christ’s advent pagan religious States and all post-Christ’s advent religious States? Does not the Session of Christ in heaven change how all political orders must now be ordered?
I don't think the denial of a political solution is complicated. They are not denying the importance of politics, they are dealing with all the people looking for a savior in politics. Politics needs Jesus.
Great analysis in this video! However I disagree that post-millennialism denies that there's political power that will come to bear in making nations Christian. I don't think Doug Wilson said that.
You’re correct 1:38:27 I’m postmil, but this is a pitfall that is super frustrating. The advance comes through the things your talking about. Need to labor
With respect to “baptizing nations” it is first and foremost to the Church. I think the issue of State comes in when the nation becomes overwhelmingly Christian-how does the State involve itself in the advancement of the Kingdom of God with other nations? Let’s say the Church sends missionaries into a hostile nation to evangelize. What role does the State have to promote and protect those missionaries?
I don't believe in CN, the state involves itself in the advancement, that's not its role. That's the churchs' role. In the second question, the state, like any other state would act for the protection of its citizens in a foreign country. So, promote no, that's the role of the church; protect, yes.
That is really an uncharitable response. Pastor Gordon stepped up to the plate when many other pastors complain but refuse to sit down and talk in a casual manner, let alone look at differences in confessions.
Stephen - this is so much more helpful than anything I've ever seen you do. I'm probably jaded by your super obnoxious and ignorant followers online. And I've also seen you pop off w/hot takes on social media that are very easily taken to justify some terrible things, like full-on racism (packaged as kinism) or legit semitism. But I'm an hour twenty into this video and find your comments to be very nuanced and helpful. Thanks for doing this.
It is sad that people do not study their Bibles for themselves but listen to what others say. We can always trust God's word. If we “study” the Bible, we will see that being born of the water and the Spirit (John 3:3-5) is defined in John 7:37-39 and it does not mean water baptism done by men. John 7:37-39 37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) We are commanded to “rightly divide the word of truth (II Timothy 2:15).” However, hardly anyone does so. Thankfully, those that do “rightly divide the word of truth” are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption when they believe the gospel of their salvation (Ephesians 1:13-14).
2:25:07 re: whether we're "angry"? Another thing Aristotle said: gentleness is the mean between irrascibility and the vice of not-being-angry-at-things-that-should-make-you-angry, e.g., gae guys making out in front of your children.
The problem, Wolf, is that your position and idea of christian nationalism makes too much sense for the calm, fair, biblical/historical minded Christians, and to oppose it, you would have to claim "not clear" at nauseum, misrepresent, and retort to insults. And that is a problem with them , not with us.
Congratulations to Mr. Wolfe for not having a scruffy beard. Most people should not have hair on their face but be cleaned shaven and comb their hair properly. There's just something very pubic about it. People think that they're somehow being impressive with their masculinity because they can grow a beard when in fact it's to me a sign of egotistical faux manhood.
It's really strange how Chris Gordon kept saying something to the effect of "I can have conversations and be friendly with my enemies"... like 2 or 3 times in the debate with Doug Wilson/Jared Longshore. Super strange, and yet -- very telling.
Yeah I was waiting for him to be like, “not that I’m saying you guys are enemies.” Who knows though maybe we’re looking too far into it but I thought it was strange as well.
At the end it really jumped out at me, too.
Here's the conversation in a nutshell.
"Here's what I heard you say."
"That's not what I said."
"Well, that's what I heard"
The whole thing was painful. Very much looking forward to your sit down with The Concern™️ Team.
Idk. Can’t really give praise for Chris doing this interview. It seems by his manipulative questions that he didn’t have Doug on to “clear things up” but to win the argument , per se.
Even Stephen acknowledges he uses providential will when it’s convenient and prescriptive will when it’s convenient. That’s not honest in any aspect.
I think any time those with opposing views agree to discuss their differences, it's a good thing. I applaud Chris for stepping up regardless of his pointed questions. The discussion was cordial
He was defensive and reactionary. He didn't seem to want to really understand. He wanted to get Doug in a gotcha.
"I am saying that" love Doug's clarity
Would you be willing to explain the Warren court, its rulings/doctrines, and how we are affected by it today? You reference it a lot, and I am not as familiar as I would like to be.
I wish I had known you’d react to this before I watched it the first time…but I’m definitely going to enjoy this!
Don't forget the "there is this perception....Doug".
What frustrates me, is how Gordon treats Doug as if Doug doesn’t believe in the providence of God, as if Doug is some type of Open Theist. Like saying Jesus can’t do what he wants. It’s disingenuous at best and at worst Chris does not want to represent Doug correctly because Chris thinks Doug “IS” his enemy. Also, when Doug points out the misrepresentation it’s just dismissed with well what I want to get to is…..and then the topic is changed. I’m glad that Doug finally got to have a conversation with these folks, but I don’t think it was fruitful at all.
Clarifying though, perhaps.
I wish they asked Chris at various points what is it that he's valuing / trying to protect behind his questions. What are the primary values in the view that Chris is representing? Because it's very clear what Doug and Jared value.
Excellent stream, Stephen. Much to think about and take-in.
Please don't make me relive that self-aggrandizing, effeminately manipulative atrocity of a debate staged by Captain Concern and his edifice if leather-bound volumes. Just tell homie to say thanks for the view count and let's be done with it.
Saying he is a careful reader is laughable.
I think it is amazing that Chris had the courage to do this debate and meeting with Doug. Especially as one of the members of his congregation, last time I checked, is Scott Clark. So I give Chris much kudos for this!
The great commission starts with "all authority" [all governance comes to my mind] has been given Me "therefore go" [I think Doug is correct]
That was a very interesting analysis and I look forward to more.
Nice intro Swollace!!
In regards to "using" God as one "wants" that Gordan claims the Nationalists are doing poorly causes me to wonder what King David would of thought about Gordan's claim of foul as David the shepherd boy stood up against Goliath when the Israelites who hadn't the faith to stand up to them did so in honor of God.. Yes the Israelites learned a lesson that day too, as Gordon puts it and possibly Gordan might also learn a lesson about not standing for God. Yes. as Wolfe says, God wants the 'good of His people' and He to be honored.
Yeah that DW and AG was difficult to watch.. agreeing the bouncing around and some of what this guy tried to explain was hard to follow. As Doug says punching right is a shame. Thanks for explaining! Definitely needed more clarity!
Gordon doesn’t seem to understand the very simple premise that “Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit…”
At one point he suggested that everyone should be praying on their knees in tears because of the condition of our nation. But no, that can’t be true. Some of us should be praying on our knees in tears and others of us should be strategizing responses and instigations and provocations while still others should be running the spiritual hospitals for those ruined by our culture who need compassion and time to heal and still others should be in the smithy, hammering away at fashioning the weapons of our warfare. And there are likely a hundred other things “we should all” be doing.
He didn’t seem to have room for the idea that his calling, giftedness, personality, and perspective might be different from Doug’s by the will of God and that the folks who are attracted to his ministry are likely those kinds of people who will set about praying while the people attracted to Doug’s ministry are those who will set about poking the secular gods in the eye.
As I understand them, Plato and Aristotle practically make the State the interpreter and arbiter of divine order-so that even with a transcendent divinity, the State will have final say on what that order is. Christianity, by contrast, has a sphere sovereignty that allows Church to challenge State (and vice versa) to ensure against tyranny of a monolithic order?
You're naive. Look at history. Tyranny takes the form of whatever place it finds and then mutates it.
I thought the sound was fine. Thanks for doing this video. I enjoyed it.
Wolfe's audio was not "fine." It had/had a strange pumping sound as if he was moving closer and further away from the microphone. I thought that's what it was caused by but then I noticed that other times he wasn't moving. You are right, though, I can hear it, but it just has that strange effect.
Good point about political solutions not being incompatible with the highest good or old fashioned Christian gospel and piety. I think Gordon and maybe Wilson are worried about “political” meaning the sort of Machiavellian power games being used by the Left as opposed to the structured political order of the Republic. Perhaps some people fear that identity politics will become a tool of Christian political actors?
On the "downplaying of power" idea that you thought Doug had once agreed with you and now wonder about his agreement I think was a gift to Gordan to draw the sides together. A chat comment by Scott M. points out a scripture indicating there is to be power there and in action not just words.
I'm kind of confused on the priestly or not priestly. I thought in Romans 13 Paul considers government as His ministers. Plus the idea as Christs body are we not priests with Him?
Stephen - are you familiar with Jean-Marc Berthoud’s little book “Authority in the Christian Life”? I found it to be very insightful.
Here’s a quote that I thought relevant to this discussion: “It is through the application of the divine order by this power of divine origin, instituted by God Himself, that God’s requirements for justice for our world are revealed. Thus, by the righteous power of the sword, the wrongdoer is punished and the just person is praised.”
In other words, the state cannot save a soul at the point of a sword but it does play a massive and central role in informing a nation’s moral compass.
Do you see any difference between pre-Christ’s advent pagan religious States and all post-Christ’s advent religious States? Does not the Session of Christ in heaven change how all political orders must now be ordered?
Good video. Keep up the good work!
I don't think the denial of a political solution is complicated. They are not denying the importance of politics, they are dealing with all the people looking for a savior in politics. Politics needs Jesus.
Great analysis in this video! However I disagree that post-millennialism denies that there's political power that will come to bear in making nations Christian. I don't think Doug Wilson said that.
You’re correct 1:38:27 I’m postmil, but this is a pitfall that is super frustrating. The advance comes through the things your talking about. Need to labor
FIRE! Oh leave it alone. It is the judgement of God on my family............
With respect to “baptizing nations” it is first and foremost to the Church. I think the issue of State comes in when the nation becomes overwhelmingly Christian-how does the State involve itself in the advancement of the Kingdom of God with other nations? Let’s say the Church sends missionaries into a hostile nation to evangelize. What role does the State have to promote and protect those missionaries?
I don't believe in CN, the state involves itself in the advancement, that's not its role. That's the churchs' role. In the second question, the state, like any other state would act for the protection of its citizens in a foreign country. So, promote no, that's the role of the church; protect, yes.
Doug’s, “Mere Christendom” book was a terrible. Very milk toast.
If Gordan is your Pastor you are in a very bad way.
That is really an uncharitable response. Pastor Gordon stepped up to the plate when many other pastors complain but refuse to sit down and talk in a casual manner, let alone look at differences in confessions.
another video! 😳
Stephen - this is so much more helpful than anything I've ever seen you do. I'm probably jaded by your super obnoxious and ignorant followers online. And I've also seen you pop off w/hot takes on social media that are very easily taken to justify some terrible things, like full-on racism (packaged as kinism) or legit semitism. But I'm an hour twenty into this video and find your comments to be very nuanced and helpful. Thanks for doing this.
What's the issue?
Lol never heard of Paul miller
It's fine to live the way you want to live. But, as Tim Walz says, "mind your own damn business!"
It is sad that people do not study their Bibles for themselves but listen to what others say. We can always trust God's word.
If we “study” the Bible, we will see that being born of the water and the Spirit (John 3:3-5) is defined in John 7:37-39 and it does not mean water baptism done by men.
John 7:37-39
37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
We are commanded to “rightly divide the word of truth (II Timothy 2:15).” However, hardly anyone does so.
Thankfully, those that do “rightly divide the word of truth” are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption when they believe the gospel of their salvation (Ephesians 1:13-14).
Chris Gordon sounds like a hyper-Calvinist.
Stephen Wolf looks like pastor Joe Wittwer of Spokane WA when he was younger...
2:25:07 re: whether we're "angry"? Another thing Aristotle said: gentleness is the mean between irrascibility and the vice of not-being-angry-at-things-that-should-make-you-angry, e.g., gae guys making out in front of your children.
The problem, Wolf, is that your position and idea of christian nationalism makes too much sense for the calm, fair, biblical/historical minded Christians, and to oppose it, you would have to claim "not clear" at nauseum, misrepresent, and retort to insults. And that is a problem with them , not with us.
Thanks for the shoutout, king 👑
Congratulations to Mr. Wolfe for not having a scruffy beard. Most people should not have hair on their face but be cleaned shaven and comb their hair properly. There's just something very pubic about it. People think that they're somehow being impressive with their masculinity because they can grow a beard when in fact it's to me a sign of egotistical faux manhood.
Dude. Like David’s men? 2 Samuel 10:5
This is a very effeminate comment.
Dude Bro, what are you talking about?
Lol
Wasn’t impressed with Chris Gordon at all! He seemed very arrogant to me.