Internal vs. External Rotation (Weightlifting vs. CrossFit)
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- Опубликовано: 3 мар 2018
- Should you internally or externally rotate the shoulders when the bar is overhead?
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Incredible, a fitness RUclipsr who does his research, and considers both sides of the argument without calling the other side an idiot. Thanks for the great video, and continue making good content coach ZT.
Weightlifting is not fitness. It's a sport.
Its science and hardwork above all else though.
Its a sport
and yet, fitness arrives as a result.
"Physical fitness is a state of health and well-being and, more specifically, the ability to perform aspects of sports, occupations and daily activities." I'm not really sure what the point you're getting at is, sports are very much in the world of fitness.
4:25 this little chinese kid has better form then all of us
vetjoh than.
SP Riggs when I got serious of lifting I started noticing that kids from the age of about 1 (when they can first start walking) to about age 5 have perfect mobility... like klokov level mobility, and perfect deadlift form without trying, perfect thoracic extension etc etc. It seems to rapidly start declining after age 8. I wonder how much it’s environmental (starting to sit down too much, not playing around as much to maintain flexibility) and how much of it is natural from bones fusing and getting less flexible but more structurally sound. Certainly seems to have a remarkable drop off point at puberty, likely due to the quick growth spurts making one’s body mechanics awkward and hard to adapt to in time. Then after that, most people start becoming sedentary and just accepting their shitty mobility I imagine. Either way, it’s kind of beautiful to watch kids move in such natural and elegant ways (wow that sounded creepy) but you know what I mean.
Not perfect. He pulls with a hyperextended low back. I'm assuming they'll train it out of him before it starts to hurt. More important to keep the chest out position when he's starting out.
My life is in the gutter right now and this is taking my mind of things to focus on my hobby in weightlifting. Thanks brother. It's greatly appreciated. Love your content.
Mark I’m here for you man. Keep working and keep fighting. If you need anything just email or instagram message and I’ll help as best I can.
1 year on and Im right there with you Mark.
@@ugukennedy1 we're 3 years later now, but I'm here as well
How's it going mark
How are you, mark?
I began Crossfit with a strong background in powerlifting, but not Olympic lifting. So, I had to learn the overhead position. I tried using Crossfit tutorials, but never had much success. Finally, I researched Olympic lifting directly, watching tutorials from Klokov and especially Torokhtiy (among others). I also bought Greg Everett's authoritative guide to Olympic weightlifting (2016, 2018). Soon after studying the Olympic lifting approach, my overhead position improved and subsequently become quite strong. Here is a quote from Everett's book (which is highly praised by Mike Burgener, btw) that aspiring Crossfitters might benefit from.
“In the overhead position, the bony points of the elbows should be directed approximately halfway between backward and down. In other words, this will be about the mid-point between full internal (elbow back) and external (elbow down) rotation of the upper arm. Some degree of variation is allowable here to account for individual anatomical peculiarities - the athlete should place the elbows in this initial neutral position and then adjust slightly into the position that feels most comfortable without a dramatic divergence. This [mid-point] position will provide the greatest structural stability for two basic reasons. First, this elbow orientation encourages and allows correct positioning of the shoulder blades and opens the shoulder joint adequately to bring the arms overhead; second, if the elbows are oriented directly downward, the force of the weight must be resisted almost entirely by muscular strength - with the elbows turned back halfway, the elbows’ articulation is no longer aligned with the downward force and the rigid structure of the skeleton can assist in supporting the load to a greater extent.”
In summary, full internal rotation (elbow points pointing back) is not recommended, nor is full external rotation (elbow points pointing down). Somewhere in the middle is considered ideal, as per Everett. My experiences are entirely consistent with Everett's observations - wish I had read them sooner. It is perhaps also worth noting that this "half-way" position can indeed support enormous loads overhead; e.g., Torokhtiy's 562 lb power jerk. Anyway, hope this helps.
It did help, thank you
I don't Identify as Internal or External. I am lateral rotation. Respect my rotation orientation or I will sue you.
fantastic haha
I am a huge fan of your work.
Oh that is the best comment i have seen on a weightlifting video in some time ;)
So is it really Lateral Rotation? No Internal or External Rotation? Just curious
Alex G
Infinite Elgintensity wants to know your location.
When I started with my overhead squat I was told I was lacking mobility in my schouders to do a proper one. Then I found somewhere on the webs the que to pull the bar apart while pulling my shoulders to my ears. This puts your scapula in the right position, activates the upper back. Tried it, and behold, an overhead squat.
Hands down best weighlifting channel on youtube. Keep it up!
agreed!!!
As a former CrossFit box owner and a former USAW coach, this has been the best explanation of the mechanics of the position that I have heard anywhere, and I wish that I had seen this years ago. My own explanation to my athletes was not nearly so concise and clear.
Great explanation of understanding the process of movements. Keep up the great content, these help me tremendously with my workouts while learning right now
Great video ..love how you critically analysed this topic and didnt just say 1 one is right or wrong but actually tried to figure out y 2 opposing cues exist..mad respect !
Thx for this, i struggled with the same dilemma, your thoughts really helped. I will now pay attention to internal rotation in a good torso posture vs. Internal rotation in a rounded back bad posture. This clarified a lot, thx
Brubigo exactly! Always look away from the joint in question to find inefficiencies.
I just love your content and this is become one of my favorite videos instantly! Keep it up!
Love it. I typically cue “like the ceiling is falling on top of you” and people typically get into a more neutral over head position. But this vid was super helpful and super informative. Thanks!
This is puts everything into perspective. Thank you much for simplifying.
This channel has improved so much in such a short time, fantastic content
IM SORRY
I asked for this video way after you posted this. thank you so much Zachary!
Bloody hell you fixed my squat issues in a video about shoulder positioning.. glad I subscribed.
Wow. Amazing explanation, cleared it up a lot for me. thanks!
Oh man!! You are killing it with this content, thank you soooo much. Honestly, my CF coaches were looking at me like I grew a third eye when I was trying to explain my difficulty with externally rotated shoulders in the snatch. This video was just what I needed to bring my lifting to the next level. Thanks again!
Fred Astaire Why do you do Crossfit?
Of course. Cross fitters don’t know anything.
I really enjoyed your video. I study martial arts where we are constantly taught a strong, correct squat to develop leg mobility. Couldn't agree more about knees over toes and avoiding the rounding of the lower back. I like how you noted the problem lay in leg strength and not correcting further up the body with arm rotation. Sharp observations. Quality vid.
Awesome stuff man!!
LOOVE this video. Solid analysis and personal judgement.
As always, quality content! would love to see more videos on programming!
Love your content man, keep it up!
A lot of good coaches stray away from the push in to the bar cue as well for a similar reason. No relative movement in that direction. I like Greg Everett's cue to pinch the tops of the shoulder blades together. That muscular tension can be felt by even a novice. Good stuff
It’s funny I self taught “internal” rotation because I misunderstood the external rotation cue was rotating your hands externally - pits out not forward. It is way more natural and comfortable for me when I realized I was wrong so I kept what worked. Good to hear someone clarify/articulate better than I could.
Gosh! I’ve been wondering this issue for years! Thanks man.
I tought it could not be possible, but every vid is better than the previous one. Best weightlifting channel hands down.
I just found your videos. Amazing content you are putting out. Keep it coming
Thanks for such a well thought-out explanation and great response to Dan Pope's questions below. I'm a CF coach and it's frustrating to see the amount of clips and videos from CFL1 seminars which actively teach the complete opposite to Torokhtiy, Catalyst (Greg Everett) and the Chinese and Russian Olympic coaches.
It really should be a no-brainer when wondering whose advice to follow.
That said, I do hope people understand the positive impact that CF has had on Oly lifting and it's also great that you mentioned it here.
Great video, thank you so much for these. As a teenager trying to learn in the U.S. without a coach, it can be difficult to get good information.
Buddy that’s an awesome breakdown of reasons for internal(natural) rotation. I had the same thoughts about it.
Fix the squat first, then worry about all the other movements.
Brilliant content ma dude, keep it coming.
mmmmm who should i trust... an olympic gold medalist or a lvl 1 crossfit coach???? lol
vetjoh hmmmmhmhmhmmmhmhmhmhmmhmhmh
trust jason blaha
Lol. Very true. But you can’t blame the CrossFit coach. He has no clue what’s he’s doing. He’s just teaching what the franchise taught him. Don’t deviate from the franchise!!!!!
False dichotomy. Many cf L1 course coaches are highly trained and learned from Olympians.
@@iforc cope... thats the hardest cope ive ever heard ever
Tried to front squat today and failed. This is the only video on RUclips that's been helpful in pinpointing where my weaknesses are!
Awesome video, I had issue with my shoulder from bad Xfit tips. Well done.
Excellent video. Completely convinced me to subscribe.
Thank you for teaching accessible movement. There is no one way, as you mention. All bodies are different, so we should be teaching to the one body. As you say, "observe and fix - don't cue specific things". And this requires paying attention on the part of the instructor. And they have to know how to really dissect movement. Group classes present a huge challenge, because they require that we teach, to some degree, to all bodies. And that's financially inefficient. :) You're a real treat to the world of functional movement, through all means of movement. Thanks Zack.
You fixed me falling backwards with your explanation at the end, with your words. I paused the video, stayed at 90 degrees able to control all the way to the floor and up and back down again
Thanks for this video Zack. I teach yoga and have a structural integration practice (aka rolfing). I have a few crossfitters that attend class that have shoulder pain and I've been watching Olympic lifters like yourself Clarence and others trying to figure out why they are having shoulder issues. I see them retract their scapula and posterior tilt the scapula but I was missing the external rotation they were layering on top. I thought everyone taught the natural IR in the overhead position that I observed the Olympians performing like the Ukrainian Olympian you interviewed in the beginning and now it's making sense why they are having shoulder pain. I'm going to recommend they watch this video. Thanks again.
Really good and informative, thanks man
Awesome information! Keep it up!!!
you're great!!! Doing a great job! Please come over Australia to do a seminar! :)
Very informative on weightlifting man, this is the truth 👍
Had to shoot you a sub man. Your excellent at teaching great form, thanks.
I really appreciate your videos. This video really explains why there ought to be a period of strength and mobility training before adding on heavier weights to the clean&jerk or snatch. Crossfit is usually marketed toward the (for the lack of better term) casual athlete, and their strategy is to try to get someone with no experience to be able to execute these movements in the shortest period of time possible. If every Crossfit coach emphasized on 6 months of conditioning before teaching their members how to do the Olympic lifts, I would imagine that a lot more people would drop out and go to a calisthenics gym. Weightlifting is used in Crossfit as an accessory that adds onto their high intensity program, so it makes sense why they do this. Many who do Crossfit aren't concerned about being the best weightlifter - they are concerned more about becoming a more fit athlete [and those who do wish to focus more on weightlifting end up transitioning into Olympic weightlifting as shown in this video].
Normally, I would say that this isn't morally questionable, but these movements are quite dangerous on their own. Even with good form and execution, overhead lifts carry the risk of permanent damage. You don't *need* to learn the clean&jerk or snatch to become fit. You can simply do every other Crossfit workout and achieve a high level of fitness without risk of damaging your body. Crossfit coaches are morally obligated to teach their students how to do these lifts with proper form and technique, as they are risking physical injuries by intentionally doing otherwise.
Thanks a lot Zack, I've been concentrating on that external rotation thing as I start adding weightlifting to my powerlifting programme so I am glad to hear what you have to say before I start trying to add more weight. Gonna just observe and see if I can't drive my arms up harder (My shoulders are pretty weak lol).
This video helped a lot. I started internally rotating my shoulders and it was more stable than externally rotating my shoulder.
right before my lifting session! today can only be a good training day!
You are the best online coach...ever..
It's the little things! Great video!
I do and teach crossfit. For weightlifting and gymnastics I always listen to weightlifters and gymnasts. No questions. And lots of my colleagues do too.
As a PT your analysis of why crossfit teaches external rotation is spot on. I always wondered but this could very well be the answer.
Hi Zack nice video, very exhaustive. Greetings from Italy 🇮🇹 👋🏻
super useful, thanks for posting
Excellent video. More please.
yessssss you finally made the videoo
Another great video! Could you make one on how to hit proper depth in the squat?
Perfect explanation 👏👏👏
Very good video Zach ! I have man CrossFit athletes that transition to weightlifting and come to my gym, and they have a hard time understanding the proper overhead position !
thank you for the very informative video
This is just the video i needed to watch today, good morning! Off to the weights.
super informative! thank you
Thank you for this!
You're fucking fantastic man. Great video.
Great content Zack, per usual.
Video idea: shrugging the bar up vs pulling yourself under the bar. I want to hear your thoughts on trap involvement and timing in the clean and snatch. I
Great video!
Amazing as always, 10/10 information and quality wise (ane evrything else I guess :D). Can you make some video about quad strength? You made video how to improve pulling strength, what about pushing (legs/squat) strength?
Best video on this topic ever.
Love the content! Keep it going! I will say personally I had more shoulder injuries in weightlifting with cuing internal rotation and agree with you in that it should not be cued though it does happen. What are your thoughts on lack of rotator cuff activation with internal rotation? Also, I tend to see in beginners and have felt myself less tricep activation (soft elbows overhead) with internal rotation. Lastly, what are your thoughts on wrist position (extended or stacked) overhead?
Finally. An analysis that is fair and helpful and didn't just shit on Crossfit. Great video.
Crossfit seem associate internal rotation with the Humeral head rolling forwards and becoming displaced. In reality, with the proper mobility and teaching, the Humeral head can remain retracted and still be internally rotated, directing the load into the upper back.
Sonny Webster (GB) is a good example of a weightlifter who uses external rotation. You need an upright torso for it to work, which he has.
But look at the position his hips, knees and ankles have to be in to accommodate that. His is flat footed for a start, and his femurs actually internally rotate, the knees end up inside the toes.
So his knees pay the price for the vertical spine. He makes it work, as do others, but he is probably on the hypermobile spectrum and the vast majority of people can't replicate that.
Thanks! Super usefull
Give this man a fucking medal!!! 🏅🏅🏅
Really Great Content 😗😗😗😗
You are incredible.
You just answered my question before I asked it o.0 you are the Jeff Cavaliere of Oly 💪🏽🙌🏽
Don’t insult, Telander! He knows what he’s talking about, unlike all the noobs hero and apostle.
Hey man, I've said it before, and I'll say it again: your videos are top notch! Have you considered making videos about low bar vs. high bar and the bulgarian method?
Great stuff, I was getting confused with what all this meant.
Awesome video 💕💖
Best youtube channel
The Nicks Strength and Power of weightlifting 🤣
you the man ZT
thank you for good video. I was wondering what should I do when I I do press or jerk. In my opinion, Internal rotation is right. Because Internal rotation make scapula be upward and elevated. Then we can keep that space between acromion and humeral head to avoid Shoulder Impingement. And upper traps, pec minor, biceps will work very hard to hold heavy weight.
Nice. No shade, just facts. Thanks, Zack!!
underrated
Awesome video but could you recommend what you *do* consider good cues for holding the overhead position in a beginning lifter? Scapular retraction? Anything else?
Crossfit coaches are NOT Olympic lifting coaches. Olympic lifting in crossfit is what boxercise is to boxing
too much boxercise 😂
First sentence is true. However, at our Crossfit box, we have an Olympic Weightlifting coach who competes in the sport. He teaches Olympic lifting twice per week to our Crossfitters. More common than you might think.
I think that is changing. Our box has two coaches that are Olympic lifting qualified (no L1 or CF). We also have pure Olympic lifters coming to the box to teach us. I know not everyone is a CrossFit fan but it does adapt and so improve.
The head coach at my CrossFit Weightlifting Seminar was a 2016 Rio Olympian in Weightlifting.
Dont forget his example of Coach Kevin who created Harrison Mauris... the best Olympic lifter in America at 20 years old... soooooooo theres that.
Been waiting for this after that 10 second interaction with torokhtiy
4:29 future podium finisher in the World's or Olympics. Calling it
Thank you!! :)
I love the video. It's very lucid. Would you say that an athlete shouldn't even start putting weight on a bar for a snatch until he can do an efficient full-squat SOTS press @, say, 45-95#? I can't do it, and I've been screwing around with the snatch (and hurting my shoulders) for a few years now (having been taught external rotation is king). It seems to me, from your video, that unless I've solved the problems below my shoulders, I shouldn't be putting any kind of load on my shoulder.
This is awesome. (plus we're walkin the same lax->xfit->weightlifting path brotha...gotta fill the void somehow)
Hey Zack, can you do a video about Smolov training..? I heard about it, I want to know what do you think about it.
8:09 i believe his name is pronounced like AptI (stress on the last i) AukhAdov. Source: am native in russian and follow the guy myself
Thanks!
One persons correction is anothers overcorrection.
Awsome vid.
Great video,
I took the level one three years ago and was taught the external rotation in the overhead squat. but found that I naturally gravitated toward a slightly internal rotation just because it was more stable. It is fantastic to finally understand this more fully! keep up the awesome videos man!
I feel like whenever I pull my wrists back to catch the bar like I'm told to do, my shoulders are forced externally as opposed to when I push back against he bar with straight wrists I remain in internal rotation.
Great video! Is there a way to get more internal rotation, through shoulder mobility or similar? I'm struggling with jerks and snatches overhead as I have imbalanced shoulders one of which partially dislocates regularly, so need more stable and mobile shoulders
Tom Ingram you really need to balance your shoulders or no technique will help
you dont want to internally rotate your glenohumeral joint overhead. external rotation is what will reduce capsular slack and increase congruency of the joint, ultimately leading to more intrinsic stability to supplement what your delts and rotator cuff can generate. internal rotation in the overhead position leads to slack in the capsule connecting the humerus to the scapula and allows for translation movement rather than axial 3D rotation
To support Zack’s posture. There are more muscles that assists or do internal rotation and more powerful.
For external rotation we have, infraspinatus, supraspinatus, teres minor and may be middle delt.
For internal rotation we have subscapularis, teres major, lats, anterior delt, pectoralis and indirectly, serratus anterior.
And now the question is, for being in that position, where do you have a bigger and stronger base basing in the biomechanics of the muscles in the upper body?
Hi, i have a grade 2 AC shoulder injury, what can i do to continue doing my clean and jerk?