Should I Use Grand MA3, Vista, Hog, Chamsys, or Onyx?
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- Опубликовано: 9 дек 2018
- If you need a professional-grade lighting console, you've got more choices than ever before. So, why do I recommend Onyx so strongly, and how does it measure up to the other guys out there?
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Interesting you didn’t include ETC or Avolite. Hog and MA are the absolute standards if you want to be a professional LD for entertainment. ETC is the best for theatres. Chamsys looks the most like a Hog. Coming from 20 years plus as a professional LD.
The real trouble I see in the industry is the focus on people starting their lighting learning behind a console. The real work is learning about fixtures - the difference between a par, fresnel, Leko and their uses. Knowing lighting theory - color, angle , focus, etc. Having an understanding of power distribution or dimmer/power load when designing a rig either for a production or installation.
So many people sit down behind a console with absolutely no clue what they are trying to control. Besides most of us started as grunt stage hands and worked our way in to tech/L2 positions before we ever got close to touching a console.
I know many people here are never gonna run lighting for a major artist, but the principles of good lighting are the same whether you are running a small dj rig or a $500k system for an arena show.
Learn the basic principles. Then choose a console.
3 years later. What would be that recommandation. I have been satisfied with Onyx and have worked with cheaper controllers and pixel mappers, but all my job offer owns MA2s
So here‘s the thing with MA (2), it has a great free visualiser. Thats why so people starting in the lighting world use it. And I think that sure if you‘re only doing lights on you’re personal budget you’re gonna wanna go with the most cost effective solution but as soon as you get into including bitmapping, video or timecode into the mix you’re gonna wanna go with the “more professional” options, especially because it’s not gonna be your own gear most of the time.
Thanks for the great vid! One thing to add to Hog4PC part - you can now unlock 2 or 12 universes at very little expense, without Hog widgets or wings - just with ETCnomad USB-dongle. You’d still need some outputting hardware, unless your rig natively supports sACN or Art-Net.
The dongle is also available as Student Kit (~250-300$). The kit comes with 2-port USB-DMX/RDM gadget and ETCnomad base license for 2 outputs. Quite a good bang for the buck, if you’re student or educator.
I'm currently Using DMX Control 2, it has everything I need (w many bugs in it to)BUT the software could not keep up w program size as I added thousand more programming clue (4K) it got slower & took a long time to load the software & it could not handle it (OP-Visual Basic 6) & no more updates! I Picked the wrong free software (Lost time now) so i'm looking for new software. I know it will takes Months & Mouths to get back to were i'm at now. 1- So are these 4 programs the best one out their ? (and keep updating years from now) And have Clue Buttons?
Yes, these are my best picks for an software/consoles. Keep an eye out for more in-depth videos on each level of console - I believe the first one is out now on my channel here :)
I love your videos and they're super helpful. I would love to see more content for ETC. For a pro grade console the ETC nomad (PC only) has a student package for $250 with 2 universes on three consoles ( ION, Cobalt, and Hog 4) it's a great option that's really quite affordable.
It is affordable, and their not bad consoles. I continue to test and work with it, but it just hasn't proven to me that it's any better than the consoles I already recommend that allows you to get universes even cheaper, such as Onyx.
I use ChamSys and I reccommend it to anyone who's either just starting out with lighting or someone who's switching from a 24ch dimmer console :D I love it! Although it's great to also learn MA and Avolites since sometimes shows already have them in the FOH, so it's good if you learn them all, but master one of them. Peace!
What console are you using?
@@chekista91chamsys
Thanks for the video!!
would love if you do some HOG 4 tutorials. keep up the great work !!
Hey Kervin,
I'd love to, but at this point I only have time to cover one console well. So, I've chosen to cover Onyx because I think it's the very best in overall value across the board.
But, you never know what will happen in the future.... :)
-David
Would be interested to see this comparison again with the consoles they all have now. Bring in the NX4, MA3 onPC Wing XT, among others. Maybe include some basic software comparisons, as to what the system/compatibility requirements are for each software and which consoles have certain features i.e. motorized faders.
Hmm....may be due for an update! (and gosh, we really thought the MA3 software would be more than ready by 2021!)
@@LearnStageLighting yeah, especially with MA3 v1.7 out now.
Great points , but I should point out the stackability of the newer dongles that come from vista. Yes still expensive but then again it still saves money as well unlike the v2 ones . Also that buying the larger MA3 console actually gives you two consoles in one . With hog it's also possible to use the 3 consoles to control the 4 software so if you cant buy the four you can still get the 3. Also I feel the flagship consoles should be mentioned since all but two fall within the 20-25k price range. But when it all boils down to it chamsys and obsidian are really neck and neck and what separates them is features. But I would love to get that NX2 for about 2 grand if I could 😂
I purchased an SLESA-U9 about a year before I ran across your RUclips channel. It is an extremely difficult piece of software, Esa software, and I was just wondering if I could use this piece of hardware on any other platform? I've tried and tried to import non-standard fixtures and to use midi from my APC mini. It's frustrating and I'm hoping I didn't throw my money away on this.
Unfortunately not, and that is the normal experience (and problem!) with a lot of these software consoles. The hardware from them (particularly ones made by that company) are not useable on any other software :(
does Onyx support midi from my APC or any midi?
Somewhat. You can use the "cue macros" to use the buttons, but to use the faders, you will need the 3rd party software "ShowCockpit" to connect the 2 properly.
Thanks how about a Programmable keyboard to run clues & joy sticks?
Am I reading this correctly - I already have an entec ODE - does that mean I could essentially get onyx or chamsys for free?
So why would someone choose something like the light shark?
For many users, price is NOT the ultimate decider. Ease of use and fit to the type and level of lighting they are doing is. (for you, price is probably more important, and you don't mind the extra time learning a pro-grade console). Also, some people really don't like PC's running their lighting. (not my personal opinion, but I see it a lot)
True. I’m not so keen on the pc myself but onyx seems pretty good for free...
David, we’re looking to get into a real console…. Our options we’re looking are picking up a used M1, obsidian m6 with onyx upgrade kit or go right into an NX4. If you had these options which would you choose and why?
NX4 - it's going to last a lot longer (the M6 upgrade kit is only for the PC inside, the faders, encoders, screens, etc, are are all old on the M6). M1 can't run the latest software (M1HD can). But to be 100% honest, the NX-4 is 90% of the console that the M6 is. Really.
Add a external touch screen and it's like 95% of what the M6 can do, but with brand-new hardware as opposed to hardware that is getting up there in age. (Could be as old as 2013, and I think they stopped making them around 2019).
And if you want a quote on the M6 or anything else, shoot me an email at gear@learnstagelighting.com if you're in the US. We can get you a personalized price on this :) Thanks!
Why no ETC or Strand consoles represented? Just curious.
I've got to admit I'm not as strong on the theatre-centric brands (ETC and Strand).
But, since I focus primarily on bands, churches, DJ's and entry-level theatre, I haven't really felt the need to cover these consoles.(as others are better value/$ for much of my audience).
But, that's not to say I'm not paying attention and testing them :). I am :)
thank you.
Hello, great channel, great movies, I learned a lot from them. Could you make a movie when you work with onyx + m-touch. How do you set everything up to have the best access to the function. How do you set up banks, pages in m-touch? maybe a movie with some parties where you shine?
Absolutely - I've actually got those exact videos available inside of Learn Stage Lighting Labs: lp.learnstagelighting.com/learn-stage-lighting-labs/
One other comment here for those new to lighting, you rarely need more than 1 or 2 universes of DMX unless you are doing big shows.
From my own experience, I would add an asterisk to that. I don't know about shows for small bands where you bring everything and it's often simpler, more inexpensive equipment, but my experience working in a small theatre is that we need 5 universes, one for all the conventionals and another four because each mover takes up 63 adresses and the non-moving LED fixtures also take up a fair few adresses, so they add up quickly. I've also seen people struggling to connect with our lights the way they wanted because they were unable to put out a third universe.
So (**tl;dr**), if you're planning to use a lot of lights with a lot of control options, two universes fill up quickly and sometimes you need a third or more to connect with the house lights.
all have their own unique feature and benefit, i guess why the GrandMA was so popular because of it's customizable software, a highly customize showfile offen rarely use by other, because it is so customize for that person, the other will offen don't know how to use that showfiles, but i don't think that so many locations have it preinstall, they offen just install a simple dmx controller or i saw a lot of avolites on my country, if someone need a GrandMA will need to order specially to the local production team see if they have place to rental a GrandMA.
Great video :)
Could you follow up with a video showing the same console's software? Let's say 5 or 10 minutes showing the differences in use?
I mean, the consoles are "just" buttons, but the real work is done in the software, which can be pre-programmed on a PC for all of these.
What is different in cueing, effects, presets, etc, and do they give these functions different names?
I know that GrandMA 1 had a problem with cues if the fade time was set to 00:00.000. Don't know it this is still a problem in Gen 2 and 3. Do the other systems have similar problems?
Also, I want to get an overview of the differences in external connectivity.
Example: Onyx may connect to DMX through Enttec (very inexpensive), but does not have a good functionality for MIDI.
Chamsys does have 3D and media player built in, but might have other disadvantages (don't know about DMX on USB yet). These two functions might actually be areason to switch from Onyx to Chamsys.
What is pros and cons for each system?
Yes, I know that I can download and install all of these softwares free of charge, but if someone else has already done this, I really hope that this knowledge is shared :)
Thanks for your great videos by the way. I try to see everyone you post :)
Thanks for the compliments! The point I am trying to make is that all 5 of these consoles have great software - really! Any of these can be used to make amazing shows. So, my opinion is that it's more valuable to pick one, and master it, and you'll be able to do any show that comes your way.
Could I nit-pick and get into each software and what the differences are? Yes, but the goal of this video is to not go deep into details, but to provide a more broad view of the differences between these. They are all good consoles :)
Hope this video helped you :) Perhaps I'll go deeper in the future, but it's not really in the plans right now.
-David
Thanks for your answer :)
I see that it might be too time consuming with low gain to go deep into each software.
My concern is more about the different options that are included in the free version (really low budget here...)
Do you have any experience with Chamsys and the included HD media player and 3D visualizer?
I have started on Onyx, and it seems that this will be my path forward. However, I'm completely new, and it's still time to select a different system if that's better for our theatre. Price is key, but it's also also important to play sound tracks timed with pre-programmed cuelists (which is not possible with Onyx). I'm just trying to get enough knowledge to do the best selection of system :)
The show will mainly be run on PC, but with an inexpensive wing connected (probably M-Touch or similar, or perhaps MIDI).
@@SnowKing2011 I have used Chamsys, and it's a good console. It's got a lot of features built into it, but my biggest frustration with it is the interface. On the PC especially, it's difficult to navigate and work in. So, it's not my first choice (obviously, Onyx is), but it is still a good console. The in-console experience is considerably better than the PC, but a lot of my subscribers are going to be on a PC-based system, and I believe Onyx wins there, hands down!
Honestly the only 3 ill mess with in order..
MA, AVO, HOG THEN ONYX. Knowledge is better than easier
How about avolites ? Ps I think the reason why ma is so popular is because it looks posh with the orange and black colour. Its like it is the apple of the lighting brands.
Nah, it's not color, it's more about history. At the time that MA took the market, it was an ugly gray, but the previous king of the console world (HOG) had just really messed up a launch of the Hog III, and MA was in a good position to take over (Avo consoles were not near as advanced or friendly as they are now!). Still, I'm not a huge AVO fan myself, though some people love them. And when we talk about PC-experience, ONYX takes the win, and that's what a lot of my users need!
I'd like to have seen some sort of comparison of things other than price.
Like actual usage, software, networking, etc.etc.
Recommending only on price for something I need to trust ain't gonna work
Well, truth be told, I would endorse any of these consoles. They are all good, and can all do great shows. So that was the prerequisite for them to even be mentioned here. Of course ONYX is my favorite, but many people do really great shows on all of these consoles every day, and they are all good, stable and usable.
How come you didn't talk about the great AVO consoles. They are a pretty major console company, they have even run the olympics. Their USB universe dongle only costs about 250 dollars!
Yeah, I had to draw the line somewhere. In reality, there are another 4-5 consoles that could fit into this comparison, but I didn't want it to get overwhelming. So I chose the most popular 5 consoles that I see here in the US/ what I hear about the most when I talk with people.
The best desk is the desk that you know the best. I've been an owner / operator for over 25 years now and my console of choice is the Hog. This is because when I trained, I learnt on the VARI*LITE Artisan and the Vertuoso. When moving lights started to come out with DMX rather than using their own control systems such as Vari*lite S200 & S300 etc, I wanted a desk that would control everything and the Hog 2 was very similar in programming style to what I was used to, breaking a light down to 4 parts IPCB. The Chamsys is also a great bit a kit and very intuitive after using the Hogs. I can't speak about MA or Avo as I've never used them. One thing to bear in mind if buying a desk is the price and you will need two and this is where it gets expensive as you will only get a hire for 1 but you're expected to have a back-up. I work mainly in TV and if my desk went down during a show, I need to keep the show running and not be responsible for losing a day's recording. My desk of choice is a FullBoar4 but I also have a RoadHog and a HedgeHog. With the new MAs costing £35-40K each that's a big outlay.
The backup piece is another reason why I like ONYX so much. A laptop that you have + a $960 USB license gets you up to 128 universes of output for a backup console!
How much do they pay you?
While I've been paid in the past to create training materials for them, I first bought my own PC wing, and learned the software myself. It wasn't until I was already recommending it that they paid me (in fact, it was about 2 years after). Even so, I've never been paid to promote their software or consoles, and I hope this video shows why I recommend it - the pricing is great, as is the software itself.
@@LearnStageLighting a true man and appreciated that you're honest
Onyx is so limiting on so many fields... No soft palettes, counterintuitive FX and encoders, no tap tempo for FX, executor window is very basic, bad documentation and community support. ChamSys on the other hand does all of it better and even automatically creates palettes for you :)
Hello. I make an effort to spend at least a day or 2 each month to use consoles that aren't my "top pick" and Chamsys is definitely one of those. I cannot argue that Chamsys isn't a good console - it is, but I just don't think it's as useful for my audience as Onyx. Soft palettes is a great feature as well.
I would encourage you to do the same - to get into other consoles as deeply as possible - especially for the Onyx FX and executors. There's a lot that it can do, but remember, you are coming from a Chamsys perspective, so you have to remember that some things are going to be quite different - but that doesn't mean it's not a great console.
Never seen an onyx nor a vista on a rider. Of the "cost effective" consoles, chamsys is the only one that shows up as an option. Otherwise, its MA, Hog, and avo. Something else to consider when buying a console... WILL IT MATCH RIDERS?! Prob not onyx...
And that is a valid point, IF you deal with riders. But, at the same time a good bit of the industry (and most of my audience) is people buying a console for their own use, and in this case, riders don't matter if only the prod co/owner is using it! If you have to fill riders, then it isn't really a question as to what to buy anymore...
What’s a rider?
@@lambeef6833 a written, contractual agreement between talent and all aspects of production for specific needs for a show or tour.
For example; let's say you're an entertainment manager for a concert hall/venue. You booked a band. That band can then send you a "rider" requiring that you provide "X" audio console for thier sound engineer, they may require you to have "Y" lighting console, or they may require you to have a bowl of ONLY blue M&Ms in thier green room upon their arrival. (One band literally asked this of us.) These are some very small examples, most riders are more intricate than just 2 consoles and m&ms however.
Once the rider has been agreed upon, and you know you can provide what they asked for, boom you have a show! If you can't provide what they ask for, or agree upon a substitute, then no dice.
Is this still the case in 2024? I have seen a lot of nx touch + touchscreen in permanent installs & nx4 & nx1 on showd near Montreal, but don't know worldwide :)
I converted recently from Onyx to MA2. There are simply a lot of features that I find more useful for my needs in MA2 that don't exist (yet, hopefully) in Onyx. Sure, you can make the argument that Onyx is massively more affordable to get into, but sometimes affordability isn't what's most important. Just my thoughts
Could you quote features? We're looking to change :)
I have made some pretty rockin' shows on a dot2. No need to spend a zillion dollars if you get to know your console really well!
Lightshark ls1
You forgot avolites.
rip avo
There are others too, and this isn't meant to be a 100% complete list. But, here in the US (where the largest percentage of my audience is), these are the top consoles I see.
@@LearnStageLighting I am surprised you would talk about vista before avolights.
But avo would be more expensive
You forgot and/or didn't mention a console. ETC's family's of consoles. Ion, Gio, and the Express.
I suppose he technically didn't forget ETC since they own Hog now. I am surprised he skipped them too given their prevalence in the US (at least, where I work).
Oh really, when did ETC buy out HOG? This is news to me. Thanks for the information and the heads up.
They bought them last summer. I didn't realize it either until I started looking for a new console for my organization this summer.
Sweet! Thanks for the info again.
Yeah, I had to draw the line somewhere. In reality, there are another 4-5 consoles that could fit into this comparison, but I didn't want it to get overwhelming. So I chose the most popular 5 consoles that I see here in the US/ what I hear about the most when I talk with people.
Why are you even mentioning MA3 right now? Most of their hardware is still not released, official console software isn’t released, and onpc isn’t released yet.
Haha! Great question! When I filmed this video, I used the example of 3 because MA had recently released it and promised the software "soon". Now we all can see that we still don't have the software (ugh MA!).
Ultimately, I didn't want to create a video mentioning MA2 and have it be out of date in 6 months. But now we can see that they're taking much longer to release it all than originally suggested!
Prices seem to be 2x more these days.
It's gotten nuts!
Vista do have a touring console which is the L5, I own an S1 and payed 1500 for console and 8 universes
Current pricing is higher. Indeed, in the past it was more reasonable at times
And L5 is discontinued with no replacement :(
Really only got mine a couple of months ago
New or used? Where from? I realize that this comparison uses list prices, and real prices are often lower...but wasn't the s1 discontinued over a year ago as well!
I stand corrected - s1 was discontinued 9 months ago, so you must have gotten a 1-time sale or bought used ...?
MA2 FTW for now and then switch to 3 when stable. No other console is as powerful as MA, not even hog. Onyx lags far behind in software and feature compared to most consoles.
It's true that no other console is as powerful, but at the same time, I can buy (3) Onyx consoles to the same size MA in most "sizes" (i.e. fullsize, compact, etc).
Onyx does have a slightly different programming methodology to Hog or MA (I program all 3, I should know), but for most shows, it can do everything you need. I find that most often, people who rag on it for "lagging behind in features" haven't taken the time to understand it as well as they understand their console of choice - which is essential if you're going to make a judgment like that!
BUT, you do need to put in the time to learn it. There are large shows that utilize Onyx - it is stable and powerful (but not as popular as MA).
@@LearnStageLighting I do agree Onyx is the best bang for the buck. I'm an LD and I'm part owner in a small rental house our MA's monthly payment is more than my car. We also own 4 M-touch wings and it's nice that they're so cheap we could buy 4 of them out of pocket at less than 2k total. And now that Elation is starting to update the software and add more features again. It's becoming more relevant and a more and more viable option for LDs on a budget due to new features/updates coming and to support being available again.
Powerful? just build a bigger PC you clown.
Just for clarity, DMX is a 30+ year old markup of RS232 serial language. It is almost comical, to think any console is better than another.
The Jands 500 can manipulate 512 channels as good or equal to a console made yesterday. It might take longer and have rougher look, but 512 is still 512.
Its just like any retail object, "Ours is better".
Chamsys has almost unlimited executors, and a high rez visualized for almost free. A $80 USB to DMX gets you universe of output.
HOG has over 28 years of the same keys in the same location. It also only takes half of the syntax and owns 60% of console patents.
AVO is killing it in the personalization of the GUI and cheap hardware.
And these consoles manipulate 512 the same way.
Eos
Video in conclusion: If you have the money, go MA.
Eh, not so much.
MA is a great platform, but Onyx (and Hog, and Chamsys, and others) are great platforms too, and you could buy one of them instead and buy a few extra moving lights within the same cost of a similar sized MA.
Btw the 60 ain’t the touring it’s the mq500 and also the software 100000000000000 times better than onyx
If youi're talking about lighting wave your hands!