I was talking to my brother how things that are policy become doctrine, and things that are doctrine become policy. This was about four months ago. After, I went on a deep dive to find as many examples of some of the core doctrines of the church, and how they have changed. I still don't think he has read it, but I was able to prepare over 20 pages of resources and information for him. This will be an awesome video!
I sat in sooooo many meetings listening to people claiming to love me tell me that I was cursed, wicked and non valiant but through : my baptism and extreme obedience I would prove myself 🤬🤮🤮🤮🤢🤢🤢
I don't think it's fair to ask Mormons to lower their expectations when they have been taught from the womb (literally) that their priesthood leaders were spokespersons for God. Lowering expectations is a cognitive skill and one I had to work for almost 20 years on in professional therapy. Mormonism really does destroy people cognitively. It's sad.
Agreed. I don't think a solution comes from expecting members to lower their expectations when the church relies on members literally believing that leaders are the mouthpiece of God.
Sorry to hear you needed therapy for 20 yrs, but I disagree with your generalization. President Nelson was a successful heart surgeon, Philo Farnsworth invented the T.V. , most Mormons I know are very educated and successful with high cognitive skills.
Ah yes, but the difference here is that this particular cognitive skill requires the ability to deal with emotional fallout. You can be an astronaut ballerina with four PhDs, multiple patents and a billion dollars and still be cognitively destroyed by a church that told you hundreds of lies since birth. It takes skill to see the truth of the world you are swimming in. I doubt Russell Nelson could deal cognitively with 1) seeing the truth of the LDS church 2) lowering his expectations of what life is giving him and 3) developing a new healthy outlook on life. Performing heart surgery is nice, changing your entire worldview because you were in the Mormon Truman Show is the closest to a miracle I have ever experienced. It's practically psychedelic.
1:47:22 John & Geraldo, thank you for pushing back. I have never ever ever heard a testimony in any context or any setting from members or priesthood leaders that said “I know these men are good people trying their best.” The testimonies are always very clear. “These men are prophets and speak for God.” So I’m sorry if you are claiming to be good men great I’ll give you grace and say it’s OK to be a product of your time. If you’re saying you speak for the creator of the universe, the bar is lifted. Live up to your claim or stop claiming it.
That's crazy they took out those two chapters in the Brazilian "The Way to Perfection." Yet another example of the duplicity of the LDS (Mormon) church. :(
Critical to Mormon conversion strategy is 1. not knowing the bible very well and 2. not knowing LDS history very well. The internet has been a great equalizer in terms of democratizing access to "covered" LDS history that included sanctioned "doctrine" spoken from the pulpit as "revelation" by LDS leaders throughout history. The idea that now they can divorce themselves from such "doctrines" by stating that the church no longer abides by such "ideas" is just ludicrous. I remember an elderly member tell me, with a straight face, that the prophets had taught the black people were less valiant in the pre-existence during the war in heaven. He did not know what to believe about the lifting of the ban. He passed away before the "Gospel Topic Essays" came to be.
It has to evolve because it is imperfect and run by men. If it doesnt evolve it will implode. You have to appeal to a newer generation of consumers of religion and you can't do it with the current approach and "doctrines". Sadly this is the foundational proof that LDS prophets do not see around corners and do not make doctrinal pronouncements based on direction from Christ.
Gods Church has always evolved, and I’m not just talking about Mosaic to Messianic laws. In Christs early Church Peter received revelation to allow not just Jewish baptisms but Gentiles as well. And new revelation changed the rules on the uncircumcised
I am from Brazil, and my dad was baptized in the church more than 50 years ago. He told me that he had to prove to the missionaries that his tan skin didn’t mean he was black. The funny part was that his family was also getting baptized at the time (mom, grandma, grandpa, sister, and uncle). He was the only one the missionaries questioned. No one else in his family faced the same scrutiny because they were whiter than him, with blue eyes. My dad almost couldn’t get baptized because of his tan skin. It took me a while to see how crazy this was. Now that I have left the church, I can see how racism was not only present but also encouraged.
I need to get this book for all my still active family. They play down the very racist verbal abuse and physically attacked while being called n word from my 2 mixed children went through. So called friends. The parents would call police say we had gangbangers in my home. Just regular hard working black family ppl. My son would cry after we ran from Utah after the last incident if you said he wasn't white. The white and delightsome bs. Some of my family has adopted black children and having these ignorant thoughts. It's ignorant because white ppl that don't hang around the black community have NO idea how bad the racism is out there. Yes, I guess it might be getting better but this harmed my family and caused ptsd This is why I'm so much want my family to really understand.
I feel bad for the black kids whose adoptive parents deny the impact of racism. they're being set up for lifelong trauma, not to mention they're probably treated as second class in their own home...
@@elilass8410 My last visit out to Utah one my sis in law brought the situation up to my other sis in law and I asked if her black adopted son has ever had to deal with racism she said yes BUT then said it was silly. I got so upset I had to keep my mouth shut and walk outside. How is racism ever silly. That's weird thinking. But they're still in cult and one bro wants to run gop and vote the crazy one back. Their thinking is so backwords. I probably couldn't afford these books but they just don't get it.
On the question of how aware Brazilian members were of Smith's ideas about the "pre-existence" justification for the priesthood ban, I can offer some anecdotes. I was a missionary in the Brazil, Sao Paulo, South mission from 86-88 and then spent several years doing academic research - including dissertation field work and publishing - on religion and politics in Brazil. My general experience was that Brazilians of all ethnic and racial backgrounds who joined the Church before the end of the priesthood ban had all heard that the reason for the ban was lack faithfulness in the pre-existence. Many of the light skinned members of the Church would candidly tell me that they felt the Brazilian Church was "burdened" with a large number of "less valiant" members (specifically, black members). Many black members I spoke with who joined before the mid-80s had internalized the pre-existence justification, often internalizing the racism implicit in the justification. One of the most poignant discussions I had about this topic during my mission was with a family who joined in the late 1970s. They told me that before they joined the Church, they didn't realize how God viewed them; they said that they had thought that the racism they experienced in Brazilian society was because of "bad ideas of men" but, they said, "after joining the Church we really understood that all the things that we suffered are because we were not valiant in the pre-existence. We need to suffer racism here to help purify us and prove our worthiness". I was deeply upset by the conversation and tried to explain to them that the pre-existence justification is not Church doctrine, but they insisted that they had a "testimony" that it was "true doctrine". After my mission I became more familiar with the history of the Church in Brazil and came to understand how it could have been possible for that family to have been so deeply convinced that the priesthood ban was doctrine. Black members baptized in Brazil before the lifting of the ban would almost certainly have received the "lineage lesson" which was typically distributed to missionaries with a letter from the First Presidency part of which stated: "President David O. McKay always reiterated that 'The apparent discrimination of the Church towards the negro is not something that originated with men; but was in the beginning with God...Revelation assures us that this plan precedes the mortal existence of man, extending through his pre-existent state." That certainly sounds like an authoritative statement of doctrine. As much as the Church may want to back away from it, and as silly as the whole thing seems to me now, anyone who joined the Church in Brazil having received the lineage lesson would have received the priesthood ban as doctrine.
I learned this concept is relation to me having health problems, a spine problem, social difficulties as a kid (undiagnosed autism). Harold B Lee’s teachings about the less valiant are specific to race, physical ailments, and being born into less privileged nationalities (3rd world countries). Its religious teachings from a prophet that justify having no empathy for people struggling because they allegedly deserve it due to the pre-existence. It develops self loathing. The concept of second class members has always been alive and strong in the church.
I'm listening to these podcasts in order. These podcasts are amazing and very telling. Thank you. Can't wait to get the book and relisten to the podcasts. Thank you. .
Thank you for your support of my work. I am pleased that you're enjoying the podcasts. I hope you enjoy the book too, where I go into much, much more detail.
The reason marriage licences came into being was to enforce the laws violating mixing races. Before then if a couple wanted to marry they just found a bishop or preacher to do it - the government had no business in marriage constitutionally.
Have you ever read a few Chapters in the Book of Mormon? It’s free online and focuses on Jesus Christ and his love for all mankind. “For the Lord inviteth all to come unto him and partake of his goodness, and denieth none, black and white, bond and free, male and female” 2 Nephi 26:33
After 1:53 he said “codified”, every time I hear that word now, especially in a Mormon context, I just hear Cardin, from Ward Radio, on Jubilee, with John, saying “codified” ad nauseam.
I love the history and understand how it is important to understand the importance of delving into the underlying prejudice of LDS followers. I was raised in Centerville in the 50's and my parents were very prejudice against blacks and people of spanish descent (and still are even though they would deny it with anger). I was taught in Sunday school that black skin was a curse. By the time I was 12 I knew I didn't believe that the church was true. As a woman, it bites me listening to this discourse knowing that the misogyny and inequality in the church for my gender still stands to this day. I didn't really confront this fact until I was in my 50's. Every single woman in the church is a Second Class saint to this day. This church cost me my entire family. At 70, I refuse to associate with people who think they are better than me. I am done lying about the facts or wasting my precious time trying to teach them to love everyone as they love themselves. They of course pretend to be hurt as they continue to attack my character. My own children aren't members and they have suffered dearly at the hands of my family only for that reason. I will hold their values up to the other faithful grandchildren every day of the week and twice on Sunday. We are good because we know it is the better way not because someone else who is blessed tells us what to do.
My grandma was German raised during Nazism years and my great grandfather was an officer in the Nazi army but didn't agree with Hitler and escaped to England and later the US and translated documents for the US. But she was very racist towards the African Americans because of where she grew up and later the Mormon cults teachings.
At Prime it says 250+ have purchased and read Mr Harris' book, Second Class Saints, but you announced it is not out until July so it can only be pre-ordered. ???
This must be the Kindle version, which was released about a week ago. The hard back is available for pre-order now. It will be released on July 1. Thanks!
I love these Podcasts, and how much depth they go into. I do think, though, that additionally, it would be great to make a 25min cut down of each one which gets the main arguments and points across to people who might not have 2 and a half hours to dedicate to each topic, but are still interested in knowing what you and your guests have to say about it. The reason I say this is not to dumb down or replace the original, but it would be great as a reference for people who might only have time for a concise version. The original still being available if they want a deep dive. I do, however acknowledge that it's quite a bit of work to edit something of that length down.
A friend in her late 70's told me her Relief Society had separate areas in the church bldg where they could meet and one of the rooms for only for black sisters. They were not permitted to meet with the white women. That was in Salt Lake City.
He actually answered a question I wasn’t sure about (and just hadn’t dug too deeply to find before). I have an ancestor who was a South Asian Indian woman who came to Utah via the Willie Handcart Company. She was completely South Asian and her children were half. So technically the marriages for her children would have become illegal. There was pushback for some of her children (who of course all married into white families since they lived in Southern Utah) and some of the kids never married likely due to racism. Thanks for the work, Dr. Harris!
I want to add a correction, the Poem, "Little N- Baby" in the Juvenile Instructor was published in January 1920, not 1924. The publicly available Church History Catalog allows viewing of all of these issues as far back as 1921, the year after this volume was published. However, this edition is available to view on Google Books. Curiously, there is a "General Note" under "About the Collection" on the Church's website that reads: "January 1920, volume 55 no. 1 is on temporary display until mid-October 2017."
A completely different time and paradigm around Race that is unimaginable now. Globalisation of humanity with technology, cars, planes and trains, increased accessibility, education, all became a product of our environment which exposed us all to the world of people from many backgrounds. Isolation breeds the likelihood of "othering" minority groups. We're a truly young nation, this is only 50-100 years ago, crazy. Juneteenth!
You know, I left the Church in my teenhood and I'm pansexual, so I felt weird about marrying a man; I worried that my believing family members would think that I'm straight now (no, that's not how that works!!) or I'd lose progress I made paving the way for other queer young adults who come after me. But from this episode I learned that my marriage would *also* have been forbidden in the early church... because of the racist rules... so... ya.
The Nuremberg laws fomented by the Nazis seem to apply American racial hierarchy to the Jews. I wonder to what extent American racial hierarchy influenced the Nazis?
Note on the "We all have drops of Neanderthal blood in us." I wasn't sure who "we" and "us" were in that part; but, having Neanderthal blood is only true of people with ancestry outside of Africa. So, everyone other than Black/African people has it.
@nazcraz11 this is an outdated statement. I’m not faulting you, just adding a correction, because that was the consensus for a number of decades but that has been debunked in the past decade, as we’ve acquired more data and done more studies. Everyone has some level, varying levels of Neanderthal DNA. southeast Asians have the highest levels and many of them also have DNA from denisovans, the cousin of Neanderthals. There is no barrier, genetic nor physical, vetween Asia and Africa, populations moved out and in and out and in, etc for millennia and intermingled genetically throughout time.
@@nazcraz11 Daniel may have a recommendation, but I think you would enjoy "A Brief History of Everyone Who Ever Lived- The Human Story Retold Through our Genes" by Adam Rutherford. Very clear explanation why the concept of race is without meaning.
I've thought a lot about how this poo happens. When 1 person of standing says something supposedly of G-d, no one wants to say, " um....no. " instead they join in and say, " yeah, I received that too." And things go down the drain. When our family friend was refused the priesthood, she was ready to leave the church.
Here in AZ, there are many clusters of "mixed" religious communities of Mexican American Catholics in proximity to white Mormons - especially in rural AZ and some parts of Phoenix. Examples include Snowflake, Show Low, Globe, Flagstaff, Gilbert, etc. In those areas, a mixed marriage of a white Mormon to a brown Mexican American Catholic is very common. Obviously, such relationships would fall in the more "progressive" side since traditional, strict doctrine of both religions do not "encourage" (to put it mildly) such interfaith marriages. But they are common. As for me, I am Apache and Catholic. The irony is that many Mexican Americans have both West African and North African ancestry. Mexican Americans have partial Spanish ancestry and partial indigenous lineage. The degree of blood quantum varies. Mexico evolved with a large slave population forced in from West Africa. That population never disappeared. They just blended into Mexican society at large. Hence, the average Mexican American in many parts of the southwest likely has some degree of West African ancestry. However, the culture of Mexico has evolved to deny such ancestry. Colonial Spain had a "casta" or caste system based on degree of Spanish blood quantum and light skin complexion - the darker individuals were at the bottom. So, the pattern was to reject indigenous or African ancestry. After hundreds of years, the African ancestry has been obscured or denied. The common perception within Mexican communities is a representation of a "mestizo" identity with a mixture of indigenous and Spanish blood quantum. But the African part is usually just left out - "swept under the rug" as one African American commenter posted on a previous blog. That means there are many white Mormons who married Mexican Americans without knowing some of them are part West African traceable back to the early days of Colonial Spain. There are many historical documents about the "casta" and slave trade with ports along what is now the East Coast of Mexico. I think there are many cases where the African ancestry was simply unknown in regard to Mexican Americans - some of whom became Mormon as time went on in these mixed marriages. As for me, although I was raised Catholic and born on an Apache Reservation with a brown complexion, I had a blonde, white southern girlfriend when I lived in FL - a southern belle who was a Protestant. Over there, such mixed marriages between white southerners and Native Americans were very common for hundreds of years. Most modern Cherokees are part white and often look more Caucasian than Native American. The unions were common enough that John Wayne put it as a subplot in his 1969 film "The Undefeated" when the daughter of a Confederate Colonel rode off with a full-blooded Cherokee scout for the Union Army at the end. Such relationships still happen in the "Bible Belt".
I am an Evangelical Christian, but more than belonging to a religion I try to follow and be Christ like. I think Mormons have every right to hold their prophets to a higher standard as they are taught that they are spokesman for God. I completely disagree with this btw. I think we are all called to be Christ like and that after Christ's death on the cross there is no mouthpiece between us and Him. We can all be close to him. As such, there is no excuse for Mormon prophets or anybody who purpots to be Christian to be racist because it was common in a certain historical error. I don't think it is reasonable to give the prophets a pass because everyone was doing it or it was common at the time. There are many many culturally acceptable beliefs and practices that are acceptable today that I do not agree with or partake in because I am a follower of Christ. We are called to be in the world and not of it. On another note, I literally gasped out loud wgen I heard the idea that black or dark skinned people will become white when they accept Christ. This is so against the Bible and Christ' core teaching's it is shocking.
You should apply this same argument to the Bible and Christ when asking yourself, "Why wasn't one of the 10 commandments, 'Thou shall not own other people as property?' and 'Why did Jesus never condemn slavery?'"
To any members, I’d love to hear your justifications for this one- try it. Why would God be non bias in the NT, set up Churches in Ethiopia, Egypt and Cyrene in the first century. Yet hold prejudice 19th century views later?
Thank you for doing this and on Juneteenth. All evidence now shows civilization began in Africa. How does the “one true church” get all of this all wrong?
John- you really need to do an episode about James E. Talmage with a historian. I know he has some deep doctrine thoughts.... it would be so informative!
Black people overwhelmingly do not have Neanderthal nor Denisovian genes, unless they’re mixed with European. However black people do have up to 17% DNA from an as-yet unidentified ancestor, the term currently used is ‘ghost DNA’. I just wanted to be clear, not trying to split hairs but this is where the science currently stands.
let’s not forget that in 1970 first counselor to Joseph Fielding Smith, Hugh B Brown was demoted and put back in the quorum of the 12 because he wanted blacks to hold the priesthood and Fielding Smith and Tanner did not. So they replaced him with Harold B Lee this happened again with Dieter Uchtdorf When he was demoted back to the 12 because he didn’t fit in with hardnose Nelson and oaks. Also may have been a little too popular for their liking.
Your guest wants to put the blame on the member who expects too much of a prophet. Although, without a member believing in a prophet speaking for Jesus, what is the Mormon church?
Of all the prophets who have been most destructive to Mormon theology - Joseph Fielding Smith sits alongside Brigham Young and Ezra Taft Benson at the top of the list.
Why is no one mentioning Elijah Abel and his excommunication from the church back in the 1830's? He was the first colored man to be baptized and ordained in the office of the priesthood. If you researched his name, you will find his history that he was a member of the Quorum of the Seventy. There was conflict between Joseph and Brigham on his ordination. However, when Brigham Young took over the reins of the church, based on certain unauthorized polygamous sealings. I think at one point, he even referred to himself as the black Joseph Smith. And he started to plan on how to free others slaves during that time. Because of this conflict with Joseph and Brigham, after joseph died, Brigham put into affect the policy and hence forth started to preach it as Doctrine of the church. This is the origin of where we got the banned on blacks form the priesthood and a whole doctrine of it incorporated in the church. If the leaders of the church had been more honest and forthcoming on this? we would not have had that in the church today. Brigham's actions were solely to try and protect the church; however, because of his actions, the church was harmed by it.
Mormons did own slaves . Brigham Young was pro slavery . Joseph Smith was no abolitionist and was sympathetic to slaveowners in the church . The ban occurred because slaveowners on avg were wealthy and that meant more money to the church . The ban was also for fear of interracial marriage and polygamy. It was doctrine and it was used as a bone to justify the racist ban . To keep the wealthy wing of lds slaveowners happy .
It is amazing to me how one race of people spent so much time and effort defining another race. Why they saw it as a duty to explain why black people were black? Of course the mere fact that they need to define it ( and not black people themselves) it is already seen as bad and therefore they find suitably negative explanations for it. The slap in the face is that if you are black you should strive to be white. While those that are white treat you like crap. I keep hearing they are a product of their time but isn't one of the commandments of the Bible to love your neighbour as yourself? Or is it that your neighbour is only those of your own race?
There needs to be pushback on this guy. The written revelation of the ban comes from the BOA & to a lesser extent the BOM, both written by Joseph Smith. The BOA talks about Egyptians being cursed and denied the priesthood because of being black
I met with some missionaries because I wanted to ask about some of these things you bring up on Mormon Stories Podcast. I hadn't even planned to talk about race on the first meeting. But I asked for their favorite verses/quotes from the Book of Mormon, and the passage that one of those chose talked about exalting someone for their whiteness. And so I had to ask about that. He was like "Ellie, what you have to understand is that this is an ancient text. Calling people black and white is a modern phenomenon. Even the concept of separating people by race is a relatively modern phenomenon. This is an ancient text and race was not what they had in mind when they were writing this text." And I realized like ohhhh. That's right. I forgot. These guys actually believe this stuff lol. The MSP always starts from the understanding that the BOM was written from the mind of Joseph Smith in the mid 1800s. (Because that's what history indicates lol.) But it's hard to even have this conversation with active believing Mormons because the fact that they believe it to be an ancient text clouds their judgment of what it says.
The church will never get around this scandal of denying the blacks, the priesthood and other privileges. They would like to think that it’s behind them, but it really isn’t. I’m old enough to remember the ban and living through it as a missionary, and it was horribly embarrassing to belong to a church that was practicing and teaching this non-scriptural policy or doctrine.
Neanderthals weren’t knuckle draggers but if you get called a “knuckle dragging conservative”, that probably merits some reflection as to why people are pointing that out.
10:23 Re: ‘one drop’, if a tiny teaspoon of 💩 were dumped in 1,000 gallons of milk, would you want any of it? No, of course not, even with such a huge dilution.
I’m ashamed of the fact that in 1975 I CHOSE to join a church in which Black members were second class.
My first time EVER donation to any organization!! 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻 this is awesome!
“Mormons are not unique in their racism” no but they should be held to a higher standard. Be in the world, not of the world. Great episode!
I was talking to my brother how things that are policy become doctrine, and things that are doctrine become policy. This was about four months ago. After, I went on a deep dive to find as many examples of some of the core doctrines of the church, and how they have changed. I still don't think he has read it, but I was able to prepare over 20 pages of resources and information for him.
This will be an awesome video!
I would love to see a brief summary here on what you found?!
Matthew Harris is a badass.
Have you signed up to support him financially?
I sat in sooooo many meetings listening to people claiming to love me tell me that I was cursed, wicked and non valiant but through : my baptism and extreme obedience I would prove myself 🤬🤮🤮🤮🤢🤢🤢
I’m so sorry you went through that.
I don't think it's fair to ask Mormons to lower their expectations when they have been taught from the womb (literally) that their priesthood leaders were spokespersons for God. Lowering expectations is a cognitive skill and one I had to work for almost 20 years on in professional therapy. Mormonism really does destroy people cognitively. It's sad.
Agreed. I don't think a solution comes from expecting members to lower their expectations when the church relies on members literally believing that leaders are the mouthpiece of God.
WOWWWW! Very well said. Thank you.
Sorry to hear you needed therapy for 20 yrs, but I disagree with your generalization. President Nelson was a successful heart surgeon, Philo Farnsworth invented the T.V. , most Mormons I know are very educated and successful with high cognitive skills.
Ah yes, but the difference here is that this particular cognitive skill requires the ability to deal with emotional fallout. You can be an astronaut ballerina with four PhDs, multiple patents and a billion dollars and still be cognitively destroyed by a church that told you hundreds of lies since birth. It takes skill to see the truth of the world you are swimming in. I doubt Russell Nelson could deal cognitively with 1) seeing the truth of the LDS church 2) lowering his expectations of what life is giving him and 3) developing a new healthy outlook on life. Performing heart surgery is nice, changing your entire worldview because you were in the Mormon Truman Show is the closest to a miracle I have ever experienced. It's practically psychedelic.
It's basically the difference between a cognitive "letter of the law" and a cognitive "spirit of the law."
I listened to episode 1 yesterday and was so thrilled to see episode 2 up so quickly. As always, thank you MS/OSF for such important work.
Our pleasure!
@@mormonstories love you guys!
Thank you Matt Harris for your wonderful works
No better way to honor Juneteenth
I really love Professor Harris’ work. Can’t wait to get a hold of the book.
Love this series! Thanks to all who are involved and put this project together.
Fantastic. Thank you.
Pre-order his book. Can't wait until i get it. Great series.
1:47:22 John & Geraldo, thank you for pushing back.
I have never ever ever heard a testimony in any context or any setting from members or priesthood leaders that said “I know these men are good people trying their best.”
The testimonies are always very clear. “These men are prophets and speak for God.”
So I’m sorry if you are claiming to be good men great I’ll give you grace and say it’s OK to be a product of your time. If you’re saying you speak for the creator of the universe, the bar is lifted.
Live up to your claim or stop claiming it.
Well stated. They either speak to god, or they do not.
That's crazy they took out those two chapters in the Brazilian "The Way to Perfection." Yet another example of the duplicity of the LDS (Mormon) church. :(
Love mormon stories
We're told today that Prophets see around corners.
Bought! Never Mormon here.
Critical to Mormon conversion strategy is 1. not knowing the bible very well and 2. not knowing LDS history very well. The internet has been a great equalizer in terms of democratizing access to "covered" LDS history that included sanctioned "doctrine" spoken from the pulpit as "revelation" by LDS leaders throughout history. The idea that now they can divorce themselves from such "doctrines" by stating that the church no longer abides by such "ideas" is just ludicrous. I remember an elderly member tell me, with a straight face, that the prophets had taught the black people were less valiant in the pre-existence during the war in heaven. He did not know what to believe about the lifting of the ban. He passed away before the "Gospel Topic Essays" came to be.
Really appreciate the use of primary sources.
Anyone know why the most perfect church on earth has to evolve?
Continued revelations...
@ anandrew6641 which is just Mormon mental gymnastics to justify unchanging all-knowing God changing.
@@anandrew6641 Hebrews 13:8
It has to evolve because it is imperfect and run by men. If it doesnt evolve it will implode. You have to appeal to a newer generation of consumers of religion and you can't do it with the current approach and "doctrines". Sadly this is the foundational proof that LDS prophets do not see around corners and do not make doctrinal pronouncements based on direction from Christ.
Gods Church has always evolved, and I’m not just talking about Mosaic to Messianic laws. In Christs early Church Peter received revelation to allow not just Jewish baptisms but Gentiles as well. And new revelation changed the rules on the uncircumcised
I am from Brazil, and my dad was baptized in the church more than 50 years ago. He told me that he had to prove to the missionaries that his tan skin didn’t mean he was black. The funny part was that his family was also getting baptized at the time (mom, grandma, grandpa, sister, and uncle). He was the only one the missionaries questioned. No one else in his family faced the same scrutiny because they were whiter than him, with blue eyes. My dad almost couldn’t get baptized because of his tan skin.
It took me a while to see how crazy this was. Now that I have left the church, I can see how racism was not only present but also encouraged.
I love love love this series. Please create more as fast as you can! :-)
I need to get this book for all my still active family. They play down the very racist verbal abuse and physically attacked while being called n word from my 2 mixed children went through. So called friends. The parents would call police say we had gangbangers in my home. Just regular hard working black family ppl. My son would cry after we ran from Utah after the last incident if you said he wasn't white. The white and delightsome bs. Some of my family has adopted black children and having these ignorant thoughts. It's ignorant because white ppl that don't hang around the black community have NO idea how bad the racism is out there. Yes, I guess it might be getting better but this harmed my family and caused ptsd This is why I'm so much want my family to really understand.
I feel bad for the black kids whose adoptive parents deny the impact of racism. they're being set up for lifelong trauma, not to mention they're probably treated as second class in their own home...
@@elilass8410 My last visit out to Utah one my sis in law brought the situation up to my other sis in law and I asked if her black adopted son has ever had to deal with racism she said yes BUT then said it was silly. I got so upset I had to keep my mouth shut and walk outside. How is racism ever silly. That's weird thinking. But they're still in cult and one bro wants to run gop and vote the crazy one back. Their thinking is so backwords. I probably couldn't afford these books but they just don't get it.
I grew up in New Orleans in the 1960s and remember attending ward dinners where members in black face performed minstrel shows.
Hollywoods been doing blackface well beyond the 1960’s. The BBC had a minstrel show until 1978
Wow! I’m not really surprised but to hear the story from someone is wild!
Personally, I like that the LDS church is circling the drain. I hope they don't change a thing.
Honestly, at this point, if they changed, that would probably push both progressives and conservatives away.
@@timmiestabrnakthey should go if they can’t embrace love.Its a commandment to love others as ourselves .
On the question of how aware Brazilian members were of Smith's ideas about the "pre-existence" justification for the priesthood ban, I can offer some anecdotes. I was a missionary in the Brazil, Sao Paulo, South mission from 86-88 and then spent several years doing academic research - including dissertation field work and publishing - on religion and politics in Brazil.
My general experience was that Brazilians of all ethnic and racial backgrounds who joined the Church before the end of the priesthood ban had all heard that the reason for the ban was lack faithfulness in the pre-existence. Many of the light skinned members of the Church would candidly tell me that they felt the Brazilian Church was "burdened" with a large number of "less valiant" members (specifically, black members).
Many black members I spoke with who joined before the mid-80s had internalized the pre-existence justification, often internalizing the racism implicit in the justification. One of the most poignant discussions I had about this topic during my mission was with a family who joined in the late 1970s. They told me that before they joined the Church, they didn't realize how God viewed them; they said that they had thought that the racism they experienced in Brazilian society was because of "bad ideas of men" but, they said, "after joining the Church we really understood that all the things that we suffered are because we were not valiant in the pre-existence. We need to suffer racism here to help purify us and prove our worthiness". I was deeply upset by the conversation and tried to explain to them that the pre-existence justification is not Church doctrine, but they insisted that they had a "testimony" that it was "true doctrine".
After my mission I became more familiar with the history of the Church in Brazil and came to understand how it could have been possible for that family to have been so deeply convinced that the priesthood ban was doctrine. Black members baptized in Brazil before the lifting of the ban would almost certainly have received the "lineage lesson" which was typically distributed to missionaries with a letter from the First Presidency part of which stated: "President David O. McKay always reiterated that 'The apparent discrimination of the Church towards the negro is not something that originated with men; but was in the beginning with God...Revelation assures us that this plan precedes the mortal existence of man, extending through his pre-existent state." That certainly sounds like an authoritative statement of doctrine. As much as the Church may want to back away from it, and as silly as the whole thing seems to me now, anyone who joined the Church in Brazil having received the lineage lesson would have received the priesthood ban as doctrine.
I learned this concept is relation to me having health problems, a spine problem, social difficulties as a kid (undiagnosed autism). Harold B Lee’s teachings about the less valiant are specific to race, physical ailments, and being born into less privileged nationalities (3rd world countries). Its religious teachings from a prophet that justify having no empathy for people struggling because they allegedly deserve it due to the pre-existence. It develops self loathing. The concept of second class members has always been alive and strong in the church.
@@trishaadams8582 I am so sorry you were taught those absurd ideas Trisha. What a disservice the Church did to you (to all of us, really).
I look forward to reading this book.
I'm listening to these podcasts in order. These podcasts are amazing and very telling. Thank you. Can't wait to get the book and relisten to the podcasts. Thank you. .
Thank you for your support of my work. I am pleased that you're enjoying the podcasts. I hope you enjoy the book too, where I go into much, much more detail.
The reason marriage licences came into being was to enforce the laws violating mixing races. Before then if a couple wanted to marry they just found a bishop or preacher to do it - the government had no business in marriage constitutionally.
Never Mo here. Preordered the book. Can’t wait to read it!
Have you ever read a few Chapters in the Book of Mormon? It’s free online and focuses on Jesus Christ and his love for all mankind. “For the Lord inviteth all to come unto him and partake of his goodness, and denieth none, black and white, bond and free, male and female”
2 Nephi 26:33
The photo of minstrels from the Portsmouth MIA came from the UK publication Millennial Star.
Another great informative video. Thanks.
Our pleasure!
Thanks! Great work!
After 1:53 he said “codified”, every time I hear that word now, especially in a Mormon context, I just hear Cardin, from Ward Radio, on Jubilee, with John, saying “codified” ad nauseam.
In the UK the BBC TV were broadcasting The Black And White Minstrel in I958. The BBC cancelled the show in 1978 because of political correctness.
They all misled people
I love the history and understand how it is important to understand the importance of delving into the underlying prejudice of LDS followers. I was raised in Centerville in the 50's and my parents were very prejudice against blacks and people of spanish descent (and still are even though they would deny it with anger). I was taught in Sunday school that black skin was a curse. By the time I was 12 I knew I didn't believe that the church was true. As a woman, it bites me listening to this discourse knowing that the misogyny and inequality in the church for my gender still stands to this day. I didn't really confront this fact until I was in my 50's. Every single woman in the church is a Second Class saint to this day. This church cost me my entire family. At 70, I refuse to associate with people who think they are better than me. I am done lying about the facts or wasting my precious time trying to teach them to love everyone as they love themselves. They of course pretend to be hurt as they continue to attack my character. My own children aren't members and they have suffered dearly at the hands of my family only for that reason. I will hold their values up to the other faithful grandchildren every day of the week and twice on Sunday. We are good because we know it is the better way not because someone else who is blessed tells us what to do.
Thank you John! I've been asking TBMs about the revelation to start the ban after Joseph was out of the way.
Great show
1:33:22 checking in from Utah county. Black face in roadshow in the 80s
My grandma was German raised during Nazism years and my great grandfather was an officer in the Nazi army but didn't agree with Hitler and escaped to England and later the US and translated documents for the US. But she was very racist towards the African Americans because of where she grew up and later the Mormon cults teachings.
The teachings were very racist!
At Prime it says 250+ have purchased and read Mr Harris' book, Second Class Saints, but you announced it is not out until July so it can only be pre-ordered. ???
This must be the Kindle version, which was released about a week ago. The hard back is available for pre-order now. It will be released on July 1. Thanks!
I love these Podcasts, and how much depth they go into.
I do think, though, that additionally, it would be great to make a 25min cut down of each one which gets the main arguments and points across to people who might not have 2 and a half hours to dedicate to each topic, but are still interested in knowing what you and your guests have to say about it.
The reason I say this is not to dumb down or replace the original, but it would be great as a reference for people who might only have time for a concise version. The original still being available if they want a deep dive.
I do, however acknowledge that it's quite a bit of work to edit something of that length down.
A friend in her late 70's told me her Relief Society had separate areas in the church bldg where they could meet and one of the rooms for only for black sisters. They were not permitted to meet with the white women. That was in Salt Lake City.
How terribly racist!
Why even join this church?
Segregation was not just a Mormon problem
@@sean9854so they are no different than the rest huh? Well there goes the One True Church claim. 🤷🏾♀️
@@sean9854but it is a mormon problem
Great episode!
He actually answered a question I wasn’t sure about (and just hadn’t dug too deeply to find before). I have an ancestor who was a South Asian Indian woman who came to Utah via the Willie Handcart Company. She was completely South Asian and her children were half. So technically the marriages for her children would have become illegal. There was pushback for some of her children (who of course all married into white families since they lived in Southern Utah) and some of the kids never married likely due to racism. Thanks for the work, Dr. Harris!
Again, this was sooo good. Thank you.
I want to add a correction, the Poem, "Little N- Baby" in the Juvenile Instructor was published in January 1920, not 1924. The publicly available Church History Catalog allows viewing of all of these issues as far back as 1921, the year after this volume was published. However, this edition is available to view on Google Books. Curiously, there is a "General Note" under "About the Collection" on the Church's website that reads: "January 1920, volume 55 no. 1 is on temporary display until mid-October 2017."
You are correct. That poem was published in 1920. Thanks for this.
John I will use one of your words to describe this series: EPIC!!!😱
A completely different time and paradigm around Race that is unimaginable now. Globalisation of humanity with technology, cars, planes and trains, increased accessibility, education, all became a product of our environment which exposed us all to the world of people from many backgrounds. Isolation breeds the likelihood of "othering" minority groups. We're a truly young nation, this is only 50-100 years ago, crazy. Juneteenth!
You know, I left the Church in my teenhood and I'm pansexual, so I felt weird about marrying a man; I worried that my believing family members would think that I'm straight now (no, that's not how that works!!) or I'd lose progress I made paving the way for other queer young adults who come after me. But from this episode I learned that my marriage would *also* have been forbidden in the early church... because of the racist rules... so... ya.
Im a never in.
I bought the book on kindle but haven’t started it yet.
The Nuremberg laws fomented by the Nazis seem to apply American racial hierarchy to the Jews. I wonder to what extent American racial hierarchy influenced the Nazis?
The products of their time excuse didn’t work for them either.
Note on the "We all have drops of Neanderthal blood in us." I wasn't sure who "we" and "us" were in that part; but, having Neanderthal blood is only true of people with ancestry outside of Africa. So, everyone other than Black/African people has it.
@nazcraz11 this is an outdated statement. I’m not faulting you, just adding a correction, because that was the consensus for a number of decades but that has been debunked in the past decade, as we’ve acquired more data and done more studies. Everyone has some level, varying levels of Neanderthal DNA. southeast Asians have the highest levels and many of them also have DNA from denisovans, the cousin of Neanderthals. There is no barrier, genetic nor physical, vetween Asia and Africa, populations moved out and in and out and in, etc for millennia and intermingled genetically throughout time.
@@timmiestabrnak I knew about the Southeast Asian thing, but this is interesting. Any citations that you can drop?
@@nazcraz11 Daniel may have a recommendation, but I think you would enjoy "A Brief History of Everyone Who Ever Lived- The Human Story Retold Through our Genes" by Adam Rutherford. Very clear explanation why the concept of race is without meaning.
I've thought a lot about how this poo happens. When 1 person of standing says something supposedly of G-d, no one wants to say, " um....no. " instead they join in and say, " yeah, I received that too." And things go down the drain.
When our family friend was refused the priesthood, she was ready to leave the church.
Here in AZ, there are many clusters of "mixed" religious communities of Mexican American Catholics in proximity to white Mormons - especially in rural AZ and some parts of Phoenix. Examples include Snowflake, Show Low, Globe, Flagstaff, Gilbert, etc. In those areas, a mixed marriage of a white Mormon to a brown Mexican American Catholic is very common. Obviously, such relationships would fall in the more "progressive" side since traditional, strict doctrine of both religions do not "encourage" (to put it mildly) such interfaith marriages. But they are common. As for me, I am Apache and Catholic.
The irony is that many Mexican Americans have both West African and North African ancestry. Mexican Americans have partial Spanish ancestry and partial indigenous lineage. The degree of blood quantum varies. Mexico evolved with a large slave population forced in from West Africa. That population never disappeared. They just blended into Mexican society at large. Hence, the average Mexican American in many parts of the southwest likely has some degree of West African ancestry.
However, the culture of Mexico has evolved to deny such ancestry. Colonial Spain had a "casta" or caste system based on degree of Spanish blood quantum and light skin complexion - the darker individuals were at the bottom. So, the pattern was to reject indigenous or African ancestry. After hundreds of years, the African ancestry has been obscured or denied. The common perception within Mexican communities is a representation of a "mestizo" identity with a mixture of indigenous and Spanish blood quantum. But the African part is usually just left out - "swept under the rug" as one African American commenter posted on a previous blog.
That means there are many white Mormons who married Mexican Americans without knowing some of them are part West African traceable back to the early days of Colonial Spain. There are many historical documents about the "casta" and slave trade with ports along what is now the East Coast of Mexico. I think there are many cases where the African ancestry was simply unknown in regard to Mexican Americans - some of whom became Mormon as time went on in these mixed marriages.
As for me, although I was raised Catholic and born on an Apache Reservation with a brown complexion, I had a blonde, white southern girlfriend when I lived in FL - a southern belle who was a Protestant. Over there, such mixed marriages between white southerners and Native Americans were very common for hundreds of years. Most modern Cherokees are part white and often look more Caucasian than Native American. The unions were common enough that John Wayne put it as a subplot in his 1969 film "The Undefeated" when the daughter of a Confederate Colonel rode off with a full-blooded Cherokee scout for the Union Army at the end. Such relationships still happen in the "Bible Belt".
Nottingham is in Britain, not Germany. Lehigh (not Lehi) University is in Bethlehem Pennsylvania, my hometown.
Came to see if anyone else had picked up on this!! 👍
Can we please tell Matt to wear solid colored shirts from now on? I feel like I’m tripping out 😂
Juneteenth
I am an Evangelical Christian, but more than belonging to a religion I try to follow and be Christ like. I think Mormons have every right to hold their prophets to a higher standard as they are taught that they are spokesman for God. I completely disagree with this btw. I think we are all called to be Christ like and that after Christ's death on the cross there is no mouthpiece between us and Him. We can all be close to him. As such, there is no excuse for Mormon prophets or anybody who purpots to be Christian to be racist because it was common in a certain historical error. I don't think it is reasonable to give the prophets a pass because everyone was doing it or it was common at the time. There are many many culturally acceptable beliefs and practices that are acceptable today that I do not agree with or partake in because I am a follower of Christ. We are called to be in the world and not of it. On another note, I literally gasped out loud wgen I heard the idea that black or dark skinned people will become white when they accept Christ. This is so against the Bible and Christ' core teaching's it is shocking.
You should apply this same argument to the Bible and Christ when asking yourself, "Why wasn't one of the 10 commandments, 'Thou shall not own other people as property?' and 'Why did Jesus never condemn slavery?'"
Any mention of the Mormon obsession with genealogy stemming from the ban? I showed up late.
I am also interested in this.
What is this connecting with the second annotating week?
To any members, I’d love to hear your justifications for this one- try it. Why would God be non bias in the NT, set up Churches in Ethiopia, Egypt and Cyrene in the first century. Yet hold prejudice 19th century views later?
I’m loving this series! I already support you monthly or I would sign up all over again!
WOW! That was truly unbelievable!
Thank you for doing this and on Juneteenth. All evidence now shows civilization began in Africa. How does the “one true church” get all of this all wrong?
Good episode for Juneteenth. 🖤🤎
I can’t see anywhere what time this is going to start. Noon?
I'm from the Philippines...and I love to have that book .how can I purchase?
Amazon.
John- you really need to do an episode about James E. Talmage with a historian. I know he has some deep doctrine thoughts.... it would be so informative!
Black people overwhelmingly do not have Neanderthal nor Denisovian genes, unless they’re mixed with European. However black people do have up to 17% DNA from an as-yet unidentified ancestor, the term currently used is ‘ghost DNA’. I just wanted to be clear, not trying to split hairs but this is where the science currently stands.
If our expectations of prophets is too high, it is the fault of the brethren for putting themselves on that pedestal
He meant women & men by saying “Black voices”… right? I didn’t assume he meant men only
Thanks!
let’s not forget that in 1970 first counselor to Joseph Fielding Smith, Hugh B Brown was demoted and put back in the quorum of the 12 because he wanted blacks to hold the priesthood and Fielding Smith and Tanner did not. So they replaced him with Harold B Lee this happened again with Dieter Uchtdorf When he was demoted back to the 12 because he didn’t fit in with hardnose Nelson and oaks. Also may have been a little too popular for their liking.
Holy crap where can I find this info?
When was that book used ? I joined the church around 1974
They stopped printing it in 2010.I would say individually many still read and believe in it.
I have never heard of it ! I can't believe it went on so long !
Fantastic video - thank you.
Small fact check at @33:57 - to the best of my knowledge the University of Nottingham is in England.
1:44:40 most important comment of the day by Gerardo.
Your guest wants to put the blame on the member who expects too much of a prophet.
Although, without a member believing in a prophet speaking for Jesus, what is the Mormon church?
Of all the prophets who have been most destructive to Mormon theology - Joseph Fielding Smith sits alongside Brigham Young and Ezra Taft Benson at the top of the list.
Why is no one mentioning Elijah Abel and his excommunication from the church back in the 1830's? He was the first colored man to be baptized and ordained in the office of the priesthood. If you researched his name, you will find his history that he was a member of the Quorum of the Seventy. There was conflict between Joseph and Brigham on his ordination. However, when Brigham Young took over the reins of the church, based on certain unauthorized polygamous sealings. I think at one point, he even referred to himself as the black Joseph Smith. And he started to plan on how to free others slaves during that time. Because of this conflict with Joseph and Brigham, after joseph died, Brigham put into affect the policy and hence forth started to preach it as Doctrine of the church. This is the origin of where we got the banned on blacks form the priesthood and a whole doctrine of it incorporated in the church. If the leaders of the church had been more honest and forthcoming on this? we would not have had that in the church today. Brigham's actions were solely to try and protect the church; however, because of his actions, the church was harmed by it.
Maybe discussed in episode 1.
I’m guessing you didn’t listen to our first episode in the series.
@@mormonstories Did not quite catch the first episode. Thanks!
Mormons did own slaves . Brigham Young was pro slavery . Joseph Smith was no abolitionist and was sympathetic to slaveowners in the church . The ban occurred because slaveowners on avg were wealthy and that meant more money to the church . The ban was also for fear of interracial marriage and polygamy. It was doctrine and it was used as a bone to justify the racist ban . To keep the wealthy wing of lds slaveowners happy .
It is amazing to me how one race of people spent so much time and effort defining another race. Why they saw it as a duty to explain why black people were black? Of course the mere fact that they need to define it ( and not black people themselves) it is already seen as bad and therefore they find suitably negative explanations for it. The slap in the face is that if you are black you should strive to be white. While those that are white treat you like crap. I keep hearing they are a product of their time but isn't one of the commandments of the Bible to love your neighbour as yourself? Or is it that your neighbour is only those of your own race?
There needs to be pushback on this guy. The written revelation of the ban comes from the BOA & to a lesser extent the BOM, both written by Joseph Smith. The BOA talks about Egyptians being cursed and denied the priesthood because of being black
I met with some missionaries because I wanted to ask about some of these things you bring up on Mormon Stories Podcast. I hadn't even planned to talk about race on the first meeting. But I asked for their favorite verses/quotes from the Book of Mormon, and the passage that one of those chose talked about exalting someone for their whiteness. And so I had to ask about that. He was like "Ellie, what you have to understand is that this is an ancient text. Calling people black and white is a modern phenomenon. Even the concept of separating people by race is a relatively modern phenomenon. This is an ancient text and race was not what they had in mind when they were writing this text."
And I realized like ohhhh. That's right. I forgot. These guys actually believe this stuff lol. The MSP always starts from the understanding that the BOM was written from the mind of Joseph Smith in the mid 1800s. (Because that's what history indicates lol.) But it's hard to even have this conversation with active believing Mormons because the fact that they believe it to be an ancient text clouds their judgment of what it says.
The church will never get around this scandal of denying the blacks, the priesthood and other privileges. They would like to think that it’s behind them, but it really isn’t. I’m old enough to remember the ban and living through it as a missionary, and it was horribly embarrassing to belong to a church that was practicing and teaching this non-scriptural policy or doctrine.
No doubt there is Neanderthal DNA in me as I've been accused many times of being a knuckle dragging Conservative.🤔🤪🤣
Neanderthals weren’t knuckle draggers but if you get called a “knuckle dragging conservative”, that probably merits some reflection as to why people are pointing that out.
Has no one seen White Christmas? Super cringey Minstrel Show number?
Genuine question, what's wrong with a doctrine against black people?
More like how is the doctrine applied. The doctrine is used to justify discrimination
My dad gets it off
And yet the Church is still true.
So Brigham Young was a bad egg!glad I am not active anymore.
10:23 Re: ‘one drop’, if a tiny teaspoon of 💩 were dumped in 1,000 gallons of milk, would you want any of it? No, of course not, even with such a huge dilution.
Cancel Mormonism!
A lot of Africans actually have 100% African blood 🩸
Thank you!!!
honoring juneteenth 🙏
What is BYU? Bronx -Youngstown?
Brigham Young University
@@mormonstories wow, was I way off or was I just way off lmao 😜 … Thank U 😊