"Delay is like a frequency dependent polarity". The simplicity yet how profound it is, blew my mind. I have often thought about how to explain the difference. You nailed it beautifully. Thanks again for such a great series and a great channel overall.
Nice to see you and your daughter together doing stuff. Really what life is about. The different observations from different levels of experiences is pretty interesting. Sammy really exudes youthful energy. Thanks again!
Growing up in a "Traditional Christian Church" with a formal choir. We would have what we called an "echo choir" (1950s), We had the main choir in front of the congregation and the echo choir of 4 singers up in the choir loft. We would blast out a chorus with the main choir and the "echo" would come from the loft in response. It made a cool sound at Christmas or Easter. I worked at a hearing and Audiology business in Raleigh NC. We would get radio and TV personalities as well as race car drivers in for their ear molds. Thanks for explaining so much here, Dave & Sammy.
The compression panning is a new trick I never thought about doing. All the other methods I had known about with school or my own experimenting. Cool stuff.
I can't remember if you mentioned in the last video, but Haas panning has very poor mono compatibility. Don't sent Haas Panned sources to to mono front-fills or balcony fills. And to a lesser extent but depending on the relationship and depth of the EQ cuts in that technique there can be pretty big phase consequences when mono summed. As we know, nearly all regular equalizers creates phase anomalies at the frequencies that are being boosted or cut - proportional to the amount of boost or cut! Only way around that is with high-latency (ack more mono compatibility problems) processor intensive 'linear phase' digital EQ processing. Waves makes a stereo creation plugin 'PS22' that has good mono compatibility and will run on a soundgrid server. And then you can also get into immersive audio techniques. Flux SPAT Revolution will run on an S6L and can do some insanely natural immersive stereo treatments to mono signals.
Now, imagine spending MOST of your life for a few years listening to a set of stereo speakers that had the tweeter wired OUT OF PHASE verses the woofer!!!!!!! What does that do to your brain, over time, and how you're brain tells you 'this is normal sound....it's just these speakers are totally different make from your car, or your headphones...of course they sound 'different'. And then, I played this video, AND LEARNED MY OFFICE SPEAKERS WERE WIRED OUT OF PHASE!!!!!!!!!! This has been so cool to learn. I swear I want to start another career as an audio engineer!
very nice! with recordings I use many types of stereo-enhancing techniques... delaying L (maybe + 10 msec.) AND right (-10 msec) is working perfect to put a guitarpart more in the background, without adjusting the level... and it gives so much more depth! Thanks you two! And it is great to see Sam again.. we missed her! ;-)
What’s funny about this video, listening to this video on my Dennon 5.1 surround set up, mono comes out the center channel, delay panning,eq, and comp seems to separate the tracks to the left right channels while also keeping some in the center channel, but changing the polarity moved the tracks hard left right to my rear left right channels. Really cool stuff.
I wonder with the perception of rear L F was because reversing the polarity canceled between the front speakers more with their proximity to each other which made the rears seam louder. Just wondering your take with your setup
I just love your stuff! But The window of you two covers up what you are doing on the screen of the board. I have an x32 and I would love to see how you set it up. What are you using to get the delay on the channels?
I just gotta reach into this, from the perspective of designed urban environments which are polluted with, um, patio speakers, rooftop speakers, garages with bands in them, and churches designed to compete with each-other in the emotional and psychological realm. How do we defend ourselves from a village full of malicious hacks?
Dave, enjoyed your video as always! I feel my mixing creativity has gone way up since I started following along. By any chance, are you still FoH for the Peppers?
Can you clarify something? The first fader is a single mono recording of the drums, but everything else is a pair of the same mono drum recording but panned left and right with delay, compression etc added?Thanks!
Dave, Very interesting. How do you measure sound pressure decibel levels in inear monitoring. Are the safe level DBs equally relatable between sound pressure in the ear canal vs measured out in the open environment. We wear these inears to protect our hearing while isolating ourselves to what we want to hear, but are we still doing it safer for the long term?
Great content! This really gives me ideas. Using these methods though, would you use it for one group, I.e. drums and use another panning method for another group, or would you use it globally across the mix. Just wondering your opinion! Thanks!
If you use a stereo widener plugin in a DAW, which of these effects are being employed to make it feel wider (200%, 300%, 400% width all seem like nonsense)?
No idea, but if you can sum left and right to a mono out and have it sound very close to the same, or at least not add weird sounds, then the widening plugin would not scare me. Anything that does not mono sum well, should be used with caution
What about panning possibilities in studio Recording. Would be Great if you could do another Video and descripe the differences and why. Would this be possible? Thx4all
@@DaveRat Perhaps you could invite someone to discuss the panning situation in studio recording versus live panning with you. do you know someone? that would be very interesting.
Unrelated: But what was the gopro/camera mount please? Commercially available and designed to go in a mic clip? Zoom make one but doesn't look like this. Thanks.
I'm really enjoying this topic. Looking forward to part 3. Can I use "180 deg out of phase" to purposely cancel out a selected frequency without affecting the rest of the mix ?
Polarity is messy, it will cancel in the center but have no real impact off center. Typically resulting in the sound engineer thinking things are better when they are actually worse
in the air nothing really cancels out but interacts in surprising ways* (as opposed to electrically in a sound board where thing do cancel out completely). your idea would sound closer to a 'phaser effect' than an EQ. *two speakers facing each other playing the same sound in reversed polarity still manage to produce sound. it's 'unpredictable' in the sense that a change in the parameters will produce a different result: distance between speakers, the type of speakers, type of sound, room, air movement, etc.
I use pole rev regularly for just that purpose. Although, I've never done it live FOH. When I have used pol rev in monitors it was always an either/or situation - not purposefully tuned. Once in a while you can quickly clean up a stage with one button. That being said, send the same input to two different channels. Set the faders the same and pol rev one of them. Make sure it nulls, then apply a bandpass, highpass, or lowpass. When the fader is null, you have a pure notch, if you pull the fader down the notch shallows. It's different than just using EQ in that you can then apply any other processing and manipulate it in somewhat the same way. If you add a flange to just the body of an acoustic gtr it will no longer null because now the bandpassed signal is different. But you can do a lot with the process. Think about adding compression to everything above your bass frequencies, or brining the shell out on a poorly recorded snare. If I can suggest this without stepping on Dave's toes, (please let me know i'm out of line, Dave) look up Dan Worrall's parallel filters series on RUclips.
@@duroxkilo I remember reading an article about a radio personality that didn't like headphones and set a pair of speakers up with the poles reversed, then positioned the mic in the null. I tried the method in a control room and found it to be surprisingly isolating. Of course it all depends on how little reflected sound hits the mic and how tolerant you are to monitoring a signal that's pole revved when your head is that close to the null.
It gets messy. I have used it but if you are mixing center, the instrument will be loud for people on the sides and quite for people in the center so it will make your mix quite uneven in level and EQ.
How about pitch shifting as a stereoizing effect, the famous Eventide micropitch effect, +- 6,7,8 cents with slightly different delays too, I have this generally on a bus as a way to pad out sounds and make some wideness, but great video Mr Rat and obviously intelligent and charming daughter, good to see both younger and more women coming into the industry, mixing sound and directing light are very creative processes and it could be said that women with their sensibilities are more attuned to the job
Cool cool, yeah pitch shift and other effects I kind of did not count as they change the tuning and I see as an effect. I stayed focused on things that are purely time, level and polarity based but do not alter the pitch or add signals to the signal. And thank You!!
Yes, that is so people without lots of money know they too can recreate these tests in expensively and it's the ideas, not the price of the gear that matters
I’m a little surprised that a channel about sound mixing, would have so many level changes, between cuts, and even between ‘headphone examples’, and returning to vocal mic only. I’ve been struggling to find a level that doesn’t disappear, or frighten the shit out of me, when the level changes. Very interesting otherwise, but for god’s sake, at least run a compressor over the soundtrack.
Compressing would alter the sound of the panning, On this video I imbedded subtitles rather that try and muck around with chasing levels or bringing voices louder and distracting from hearing the pan effects.
Besides music. Dave's videos are the only ones i watch on normal speed with both ears in.
That is a huge compliment and thank you!!
"Delay is like a frequency dependent polarity". The simplicity yet how profound it is, blew my mind. I have often thought about how to explain the difference. You nailed it beautifully. Thanks again for such a great series and a great channel overall.
Thank you and awesome!
Nice to see you and your daughter together doing stuff. Really what life is about. The different observations from different levels of experiences is pretty interesting. Sammy really exudes youthful energy. Thanks again!
Growing up in a "Traditional Christian Church" with a formal choir. We would have what we called an "echo choir" (1950s), We had the main choir in front of the congregation and the echo choir of 4 singers up in the choir loft. We would blast out a chorus with the main choir and the "echo" would come from the loft in response. It made a cool sound at Christmas or Easter. I worked at a hearing and Audiology business in Raleigh NC. We would get radio and TV personalities as well as race car drivers in for their ear molds. Thanks for explaining so much here, Dave & Sammy.
Love this
The compression panning is a new trick I never thought about doing. All the other methods I had known about with school or my own experimenting. Cool stuff.
Cool cool
This video made me feel great. Love the enthusiasm and banter. The passion!
👍🤙👍
The best two videos on RUclips! Amazing content and explanation
Thank you Lucas!!
That was a lovely little Two-Part tutorial, and I learned a lot. Very inspiring. Thank you!
I can't remember if you mentioned in the last video, but Haas panning has very poor mono compatibility. Don't sent Haas Panned sources to to mono front-fills or balcony fills.
And to a lesser extent but depending on the relationship and depth of the EQ cuts in that technique there can be pretty big phase consequences when mono summed. As we know, nearly all regular equalizers creates phase anomalies at the frequencies that are being boosted or cut - proportional to the amount of boost or cut! Only way around that is with high-latency (ack more mono compatibility problems) processor intensive 'linear phase' digital EQ processing.
Waves makes a stereo creation plugin 'PS22' that has good mono compatibility and will run on a soundgrid server.
And then you can also get into immersive audio techniques. Flux SPAT Revolution will run on an S6L and can do some insanely natural immersive stereo treatments to mono signals.
Great video Dave! Keep 'em coming!
👍⚡
Now, imagine spending MOST of your life for a few years listening to a set of stereo speakers that had the tweeter wired OUT OF PHASE verses the woofer!!!!!!! What does that do to your brain, over time, and how you're brain tells you 'this is normal sound....it's just these speakers are totally different make from your car, or your headphones...of course they sound 'different'. And then, I played this video, AND LEARNED MY OFFICE SPEAKERS WERE WIRED OUT OF PHASE!!!!!!!!!! This has been so cool to learn. I swear I want to start another career as an audio engineer!
Oh my!
@@DaveRat 🤣
This is just amazing!!! thank you
👍🤙👍
very nice! with recordings I use many types of stereo-enhancing techniques... delaying L (maybe + 10 msec.) AND right (-10 msec) is working perfect to put a guitarpart more in the background, without adjusting the level... and it gives so much more depth! Thanks you two!
And it is great to see Sam again.. we missed her! ;-)
Good to know thank you
👍🤙👍
Love it, you can not have too much knowledge. Great to add more tools to the tool box! Thank you.
🤙😃🤙⚡
What’s funny about this video, listening to this video on my Dennon 5.1 surround set up, mono comes out the center channel, delay panning,eq, and comp seems to separate the tracks to the left right channels while also keeping some in the center channel, but changing the polarity moved the tracks hard left right to my rear left right channels. Really cool stuff.
Cool!
I wonder with the perception of rear L F was because reversing the polarity canceled between the front speakers more with their proximity to each other which made the rears seam louder. Just wondering your take with your setup
This is pure Gold.
👍🤙👍
I just love your stuff! But The window of you two covers up what you are doing on the screen of the board. I have an x32 and I would love to see how you set it up. What are you using to get the delay on the channels?
Using the built in channel delay
@@DaveRat Ok, thank's! I'll look into it the next time I sit at the board.
Cool. Yeah every input has a delay that you can turn on and adjust
@@DaveRat It's great that hours spent on youtube is not a waste :) I will keep following your videos.
Cool cool Martin
This is realy good and so well demonstrated 🥰
Awesome and thank you
Then you get to have a mixer with more inputs and it looks really cool.
🤙👍🤙
Though this is more for reproduction than reinforcement
I just gotta reach into this, from the perspective of designed urban environments which are polluted with, um, patio speakers, rooftop speakers, garages with bands in them, and churches designed to compete with each-other in the emotional and psychological realm. How do we defend ourselves from a village full of malicious hacks?
our hearing sense is fascinating... great upload mr Dave.
:) i see we're going stereo w/ the closed captions
🤙👍🤙
suuuuper awesome... can't wait for part 3
👍🤙
Great stuff.
🤙👍🤙 thank you
Dave, enjoyed your video as always! I feel my mixing creativity has gone way up since I started following along.
By any chance, are you still FoH for the Peppers?
Thank you! No more touring for me. I have had enough after near 4 decades. Too much time being transported.
Can you clarify something? The first fader is a single mono recording of the drums, but everything else is a pair of the same mono drum recording but panned left and right with delay, compression etc added?Thanks!
Dave, Very interesting. How do you measure sound pressure decibel levels in inear monitoring. Are the safe level DBs equally relatable between sound pressure in the ear canal vs measured out in the open environment. We wear these inears to protect our hearing while isolating ourselves to what we want to hear, but are we still doing it safer for the long term?
I will leave that up to others to sort. Good questions
I’m confused on the polarity test was it two mono signals with one side reversed to create a cancel or a stereo L and R with one or both switched?
Mono with one side reversed
Great content! This really gives me ideas. Using these methods though, would you use it for one group, I.e. drums and use another panning method for another group, or would you use it globally across the mix. Just wondering your opinion! Thanks!
When I mix I strive to find a unique placement for each instrument in the horizontal domain.
8 avoid doing the same things to lots of things
If you use a stereo widener plugin in a DAW, which of these effects are being employed to make it feel wider (200%, 300%, 400% width all seem like nonsense)?
No idea, but if you can sum left and right to a mono out and have it sound very close to the same, or at least not add weird sounds, then the widening plugin would not scare me. Anything that does not mono sum well, should be used with caution
Very cool guys and girls hope you’re Xmas was cool take care
Thank you and back at ya!
What about panning possibilities in studio Recording. Would be Great if you could do another Video and descripe the differences and why. Would this be possible? Thx4all
There are better people than I for studio stuff. My experience is primarily live sound
@@DaveRat Perhaps you could invite someone to discuss the panning situation in studio recording versus live panning with you. do you know someone? that would be very interesting.
Oh. there we go
Unrelated: But what was the gopro/camera mount please? Commercially available and designed to go in a mic clip? Zoom make one but doesn't look like this. Thanks.
It's a GoPro tripod that fits 8n a wireless mic clip but not designed to
BRAVO
👍⚡👍
I'm really enjoying this topic. Looking forward to part 3.
Can I use "180 deg out of phase" to purposely cancel out a selected frequency without affecting the rest of the mix ?
Polarity is messy, it will cancel in the center but have no real impact off center. Typically resulting in the sound engineer thinking things are better when they are actually worse
in the air nothing really cancels out but interacts in surprising ways* (as opposed to electrically in a sound board where thing do cancel out completely). your idea would sound closer to a 'phaser effect' than an EQ.
*two speakers facing each other playing the same sound in reversed polarity still manage to produce sound. it's 'unpredictable' in the sense that a change in the parameters will produce a different result: distance between speakers, the type of speakers, type of sound, room, air movement, etc.
I use pole rev regularly for just that purpose. Although, I've never done it live FOH. When I have used pol rev in monitors it was always an either/or situation - not purposefully tuned. Once in a while you can quickly clean up a stage with one button.
That being said, send the same input to two different channels. Set the faders the same and pol rev one of them. Make sure it nulls, then apply a bandpass, highpass, or lowpass. When the fader is null, you have a pure notch, if you pull the fader down the notch shallows. It's different than just using EQ in that you can then apply any other processing and manipulate it in somewhat the same way. If you add a flange to just the body of an acoustic gtr it will no longer null because now the bandpassed signal is different. But you can do a lot with the process. Think about adding compression to everything above your bass frequencies, or brining the shell out on a poorly recorded snare.
If I can suggest this without stepping on Dave's toes, (please let me know i'm out of line, Dave) look up Dan Worrall's parallel filters series on RUclips.
Cool cool and all good
@@duroxkilo I remember reading an article about a radio personality that didn't like headphones and set a pair of speakers up with the poles reversed, then positioned the mic in the null. I tried the method in a control room and found it to be surprisingly isolating. Of course it all depends on how little reflected sound hits the mic and how tolerant you are to monitoring a signal that's pole revved when your head is that close to the null.
Thanks Dave. So many things that I never thought about. Things that I think we can use in our church mix.
Awesome!
where did you get the AI Sound from?
My laptop came with Music Maker Jam installed and I was bored one day...
It's also interesting how there is also seemingly no sharing between live sound and hifi/ home theater sound.
Agreed, they progress differently yet there are things that could help the other
What is that glorious rack mixer
Overhead view of an x32
@@DaveRat I actually meant the console on the wall 😂
Ha! That is a high res photo of the console I toured with, Midas H3000
Kinda liked the polarity sound.....
It gets messy. I have used it but if you are mixing center, the instrument will be loud for people on the sides and quite for people in the center so it will make your mix quite uneven in level and EQ.
How about pitch shifting as a stereoizing effect, the famous Eventide micropitch effect, +- 6,7,8 cents with slightly different delays too, I have this generally on a bus as a way to pad out sounds and make some wideness, but great video Mr Rat and obviously intelligent and charming daughter, good to see both younger and more women coming into the industry, mixing sound and directing light are very creative processes and it could be said that women with their sensibilities are more attuned to the job
Cool cool, yeah pitch shift and other effects I kind of did not count as they change the tuning and I see as an effect. I stayed focused on things that are purely time, level and polarity based but do not alter the pitch or add signals to the signal. And thank You!!
Great video. It is amazing how complex God has created our bodies to receive the different auditory and visual acuity signals.
I'm super sensitive to phase inversion, it makes my brain want to escape my skull.
Yes, it hurts my head as well
So much money and he uses a behringer mixer ^^
Yes, that is so people without lots of money know they too can recreate these tests in expensively and it's the ideas, not the price of the gear that matters
I’m a little surprised that a channel about sound mixing, would have so many level changes, between cuts, and even between ‘headphone examples’, and returning to vocal mic only. I’ve been struggling to find a level that doesn’t disappear, or frighten the shit out of me, when the level changes. Very interesting otherwise, but for god’s sake, at least run a compressor over the soundtrack.
Even the mic levels between the two of you, are nowhere near parity…
Compressing would alter the sound of the panning,
On this video I imbedded subtitles rather that try and muck around with chasing levels or bringing voices louder and distracting from hearing the pan effects.
Even the best cooks have to compromise when they do THREE jobs at the same time. Video production be HARD yo ... try it sometime.
What a beautiful nerds.