Bergmann No. 3 & No.4 1896 Pistols
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
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Of the three calibers available in the 1896 model Bergmann pistol, the 6.5mm No.3 was the most popular. Approximately 4,000 of these guns were produced, and they found a worldwide following. The No.3 pistol was pretty much identical in concept to the 5mm No.2 Bergmann, but scaled up for the slightly larger 6.5mm cartridge. The No.4 was on the same frame as the No.3, but chambered for a larger still 8mm cartridge, and only a few hundred of these were made.
R.K. Wilson grants the 6.5mm Bergmann with “appreciable stopping power” (particularly with the lead bullets), and rates it much superior to the .25 ACP (which was not introduced until 1905). That may be setting the bar pretty low today, but it was a respectable achievement for a safe and reliable pocket pistol in 1896. In terms of design, the No.3 Bergmann did use a dust cover over the ejection port, which reciprocated automatically with the bolt. The smaller No.2 did not include this feature. In addition, shortly after the beginning of No.3 production the method of retaining the barrel was changed. Early examples use a retaining screw and a lug on the barrel, but the lug was changed for a fully threaded barrel fairly quickly. In these models, removing the barrel requires removing the retaining screw and then unscrewing the barrel. Since the retaining screw holds it in place and maintains headspace, the barrel does not have to be torqued down when installed - thus making is still easy to remove for cleaning.
Bergmann was willing to accommodate quite a few design alterations, including different barrel lengths, different grips, shoulder stocks and even things like set triggers for target shooting. We will look at examples of all these features...
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I just played a demo of Hunt: Showdown, and theres a pistol in that game called the "Bornheim No. 3". As soon as I saw it I knew I had seen a Forgotten Weapons video on it.
same reason i came here ;-)
same
Same
Hunt showdown is a great game for generating interest in old firearms.
In my hunt showdown playlist I’ve gone through some of Ian’s videos and found several videos of the guns in that game and added them there lol. Just in case I feel like nerding out. ( again ) on a specific weapon.
Except the spectre or the Banermann shotgun. So I found another video instead of some gun shooting one at the range. Which is pretty badass
You pack a lot of information into 20+minutes always enjoyable I live vicariously through you,I was a museum junkie before my stroke and I would spend hour upon hour in front of the weapon exhibits but alas no longer. So thank you and keep them coming, Ian!
On the shoulder stock, zinc with lead impurities is subject to zinc pest, which breaks the metal down.
Really liking the aesthetics on these pistols.
Also I liked the part where you showed the operations of the trigger mechanisms on them.
On the presentation gun at the end, and on all the other VCS guns, the VCS stands for Valentin Christopher Schilling who was the sub contractor gunsmith. I was going to say that the oddball was a one-off lefty, but the safety is on the wrong side. The viewports on the left hand side make more sense regardless (for right handed) as when you are holding it with your right hand yo have eyes on the left side.
Looks almost as if it was a display piece. Like, look what my firm can do. Only reason I see to emblazon the makers mark like that.
Awesome vid as always, loved this series.
Goonygoon84 I googled the name and came up with some other info in the comments section of this page: www.gunvaluesboard.com/v.-chr-schilling-326334.html
Bergmann Pistols are very interesting! Thanks Ian!
talking about scares and fragile pieces, have you ever had or witnessed any accidents on handling these amuseum-ready pieces? cracking something, dropping it, accidental dryfire etc? and what sort of procautions it requires, does the owner tell what can or can't be done or is it up to your professionalism?
Trigger mechanism is nice, but not really unusual. It is a clever adaptation of the standard "set trigger" mechanism that was common on many muzzle loading rifles and pistols long before this Bergmann was designed. Cocking a part of the mechanism to act as a hammer to forcefully and very quickly disengage the sear made it possible to lighten and shorten the trigger pull to a level that made very accurate shooting possible. It is, of course still being used to day.
the V in V Schilling probably stands for Viktor btw.
You know what would be really cool? If they let you shoot them. I wish I had a time machine. Bergmann's for everyone!
21:35 pretty easy explanation, they were desinged with akimbo in mind.
Ian, since I know you love video games (heh) here's a fun tidbit: the game Assassin's Creed Syndicate features a Bergmann 1896 as a weapon the characters can acquire and use. However the game is set in 1868 London so just slightly anachronistic. Hah.
thanks, Ian
That target model is beautiful. If I ever get into airsoft I'm going to have to engineer, 3d print, CNC, anything to create what I want. And it will be stocked!
It will make it easier for stowing it away between matches with that holster/buttstock combo if you make it as well.
I guess the target pistol (15min) should work even if the "upper triger" is not presed. the trigerpull would be stifier and longer but should work.
LOVE that Target Model!
So wild that this was a carry gun but is comparable in size to a CZ Vz.61 Scorpion
From what I read, it is actually 156.14 gauge. may be wrong, but that is what I heard.
Pistolet means 'pistol' in french so I'm guessing they were intended for a french market? Also 'Breveté' is the french word for patent. (Btw the 'é' at the end is pronounced like 'hey' but with a silent h, so it'd be more like 'brevet-ay' and not 'brevette' ;)
Super interesting, as always!
@forgotten weapons there is a great history behind the Roth-Steyr M1907 and the Roth Sauer its a great gun, check it out!
It is almost scary to realise how much money is on that table....
7:57 "Pistolet" is french for Pistol, so my best guess is that the ones marked with this were sold in either france or any french speaking country ?
Hi Ian, Just another guess but could the /14 denote a charge of 14 grains of black powder?
I always thought this thing would make a great star wars blaster, and it looks like the protagonist in the upcoming mandolorian tv show is using a blaster derived from one of these
Hopefully that will lead to an airsoft maker building replicas.
What is the advantage of an early automatic pistol over a revolver?
"Pistolet Bergmann" just means "Bergmann Pistol" in french, and there is another french word on the pistol which is "Breveté" which means "patented", hope i have help you with that ! Maybe it was for a French customer
Hunt showdown anyone?
+Forgotten Weapons pistolet Bergmann is French for Bergmann pistol
Did any armies adopt the Bergmann?
8:15 Isn't that stamped over the original? I think that was done for the french or belgian market...
do the selbaster model 1906 (or 1916?) self loading toggle action rifle!
Gustavo Sosa he has done both.
FD36 thank you! i will promptly search for them!
Gustavo Sosa he has a bf1 playlist, that should narrow down your search.
Suhl...my birthplace
"Pistolet" means "Pistol" in Polish. I do not know if it means anything, but it is interesting.
@ Ian
What would the process be for trying to work towards the powder load for these 8mm pistols?
If we have the bullet weight and the rough properties of the lighter round, surely a bit of math and some courage, as you might ruin the Number 4 you're testing it on, wouldn't that get you close?
Are there no anecdotal stories or documents that you could go on as well?
The real problem would be finding the proprietary cases. Without the brass, it's all just theoretical.
Siesta Time If we have a comparative picture including an example of the 8mm Bergmann case, couldn't we make reasonably solid guestimates from that and try that in a sample chamber?
There Be Game
The internal dimensions of the case can make a huge difference in pressure levels; without those dimensions, or at least a cartridge that could be dissected and measured, there's no way to even make a wild guess. I suppose you could start by milling a case that would fit the chamber, and slowly work the charge up, but even if we got the correct weight bullet leaving the barrel at the right velocity, the design chamber pressure and our chamber pressure could still be significantly (dangerously) different. It could probably be done, but I don't think I'd risk blowing the pistol up.
It strikes me that you could build a replica chamber and barrel as a test bed for such testing. Not only that, if you have component specifications that relate directly to the Number 4, it should be easier and safer than risking blowing up an antique.
Expensive, absolutely, but safer.
Plus don't we have the shot weight already worked out, the number on the Number 4 was the amount of shot that a pound of lead would produce, from memory.
There Be Game
I agree that milling a pressure test chamber would be the way to go. It would basically require the same machinery you would need to make the cartridges anyway, so the machinery wouldn't be an issue. The problem is that we're still guessing what pressures the original chamber can handle. We don't have any of the original bullets to pressure test, and we don't want to test an original chamber to failure.
We already know what the original bullets weighed; that's not a problem. But the number on the #4 just refers to the "gauge" or "bore" (diameter/caliber) of the bullet, not the weight of the bullet. That part is a little confusing, but it's how shotgun bores are measured.
Has anyone shot one of these on video? Id like to see that
"Pistolet Bergmann" means Bergmann pistol in French, so might be meant for export to France, Belgium or Switzerland. Any info on official tests in any of those countries?
Mind you, it might be a privately-owned gun exported to Russia, at the time the Russians loved all French things.
B R O H E I M
Who's here after seeing the Mandalorian?
"Pistolet" simply means pistol in French. You never pronounce the final consonnant in French, and e+t = é ("eh").
Hunt Showdown hmmmmmmmm
Bergmann means miner in German, and I think it's a miners lamp he's carrying there that shines.
Omnihil777 an exact translation would be mountain man but miner is correct.
If you translate it directly but we say Bergmann just like Miner, even today when you just work underground in coal mine without a mountain on your head :)
Bergmann actually started with one of germany's first vending machines (chocolate) and household appliances, later bicycles and cars (rather motorised coaches)
I bet you the "/14" stands for the barrels Calibere, given the odd measurement in gauge for a handgun, i bet you that's the way of measuring barrel lengh, this is common on cannons.
So you take the bore Diameter, times this number to get barrel length, i bet you that barrel is exactly 112MM long, or about 4.4 inches from chamber to muzzle.
There's a Bergmann in the "Star Wars: The Mandalorian." It's in the thumbnail or the trailer.
It's time, Return of the bergmanns
@@martinkaldhol6190 honestly, I hope this convinces an airsoft maker to build some. Load with fluorescent pellets and you have a blaster!
Fun fact: The Bergmann (actually a mock-up made using a Walther P-38) 1896 made an appearance in the movie Big Jake. The same prop gun was used in Black Caesar and Caged Heat.
Coffeehound So THAT'S what that gun is/supposed to be. Cool piece of knowledge, thanks.
Berg=mountain
Mann=ya know what it means
It doesn’t mean miner,mate
Child Molester 4131 I think you replied to the wrong thread.
Brawler_1337 why?
Child Molester 4131 Because this thread is talking about the Bergmann being used in movies, not how “Bergmann” means “miner.”
It would be a great shame to break this unique collection up, if indeed that is what is going to happen, to see an evolutional change in any production line is very important when we are trying to understand why and when, this must be one of the best examples of this, and given the very small production run of these is pistols makes it, well, unique. Many thanks for posting this.
These are from a private collection so I doubt these beauties are gonna be separated anytime soon.
That target model looks so epic. adds at least 100 points to the steampunk look.
"Pistolet" is just the french word for "pistol" (it is in fact pronounced pee-sto-lay, with the final T at the end being mute).
This one was probably sold in France or Belgium.
Speaking of which, "breveté" ("patented") is actually more accurately pronounced "bruh-vuh-tay" instead of "bruh-vayt" :)
Thanks for so many cool Bergmann pistols videos! And many thanks to the anonymous collector, also !
I know it's not as high-capacity as the autoloaders that would soon come to the market, or as robust probably, or even as reliable... but I do like the look of this basic layout and mechanism.
Then again I also said there was something artistically pleasing about another gun Ian called 'essentially sound but very ugly' so it's possible I'm just completely insane.
/14 appears to be a length designation in calibers. Naval Guns are often designated by length in calibers.
That’s quite weird
Love the design, I have always wanted to get my hands on one of these, but alas, at my ever building age, and lack of decent income, it shall never be. I can sit back and dream of the BOLO Mauser's that I once had, Chinese junk I once purchased 3 of them from Shotgun News add for a few bucks, they were VERY rough. Of the three, I made one sort of complete working model, and on our next bluing day, I had them ready for the salts. The good one turned out very well and paid for all the time I put into the rebuild, the other 2 actually both went for more then I spent on the lot, now, however I sort of wished I had kept the complete gun, but then what would I do with it today? Perhaps sit in my electric recliner and look at it? Na best it went to some fellow who treasured it. Such is the life of a former gun nut who was forced to sell his collection when the income stopped to pay the bills. Ah well....
"Pistolet Bergmann" simply is french (I suspect they were produced in Belgium or in France) and means "Bergmann Pistol". Maybe it also has something to do with the patenting, since "patenté" and "breveté" (meaning: patented and breveted) are french words, as well...
IMitschko pistolet is also Russian for small pistol
@@andreweisen3314 Any pistol, actually. And even SMGs are called "Пистолет-пулемёт" ("Pitol-Machinegun").
I want to thank the collector for allowing you to show us all of these fascinating pistols.
Just the best, coolest-looking guns of all time ... loving this series, what a collection!!
I'm located in Germany and I'm a frequent viewer of your videos .
You've got me curious , so I've checked out Wikipedia for Theodor Bergmann .
To my complete astonishment the English and the German Wikipedia biographies of Theodor Bergmann do differ quite a bit regarding their contents .
Whereas the English version is clearly focussed on his manufacturing activities of firearms , the German version only mentions these in two short and kinda subsidiary sentences and clearly focusses on all of his other manufacturing projects .
I could never have imagined , that the different pro-firearm doctrines of America and the anti-firearms doctrines of parts of Europe and in particular in Germany could make up for such a large and significant difference in writing a short biography of one single man in two different languages , .....just astonishing !
The English version :
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Bergmann
....and the German version :
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Bergmann_(Unternehmer)
Even if you should not be able to read German , .....the pictures alone are evidence enough !
Just my two cents .
As it's Wikipedia, you, or anyone else, could always translate those English passages and insert them into the German Wiki.
@@Fernando-sd6xt
Thanks
Very cool! A double-set trigger on a semi-auto pistol! Don't think I've seen that before.
Perhaps finger rest on 17:00 was to keep trigger adjustment screw from being accidentally rotated
love this Bergmann series, this is the stuff i subscribed for for sure!
It would be great if you could get your hands on a De Lisle carbine ! If you do the Welrod you have to do the DeLisle
In naval artillery you can sometimes see the barrel length in gauge, if that's the case with the /14 it'd mean that the barrel is 112mm long.
I don't have a bergmann No.4 nor a ruler, and i also have a poor eye measure, so i don't know how feasible my guess is
Really liked the series. The guns do have a charm that is hard to describe.
Yeah, looks like something Han Solo carried as a back up!
Hey Ian, great video as always. I was just wondering if you had any stills or photos of the target model's sight picture that you'd be willing to throw on Facebook or something, cause it seems really neat and I'd like to check it out. Thanks and keep the videos coming!
I just want to say, I appreciate all the information you teach about firearms. Thank you.
Another great video. I love looking at these obscure guns. Thank you to the collector who shared them.
The target version looks slick. Not sure how hard it is to cock, but that second finger rest seems like it would also help provide a little better leverage for cocking the gun.
Perhaps the last pistol was the Schilling Co. Proof? I don't imagine there is any ammo available, but have you had a chance to fire a Bergman?
We both know why you and me are here hunter, enjoy your stay.
miner = Bergmann
also the burst/rays around him might actually be the inside of a mine. The wooden support could look like that.
Hi, thank you for your videos, I love your channel.
Fyi, breveté is pronounced "brevet-hay" Like in hay fever.
Pistolet == pistol and the t is silent. Pistol-ea ea sound like ea in pleasure.
Merci et continue le bon travail!
Oh and I forgot, brevet is like pistolet. The t is silent.
Love these pistols, so cool to see a bunch of them like this.
I have 3 8mm Bergmann rounds from one of those wood kits . I found the box with one clip with 4 rounds of ammo but lost one of the rounds 10 years ago in a divorce move . I'm open to selling the clip and the rounds if you want them .
It's funny but the more I look at the Bergmanns the more I like their looks. Pity no one ever did a modern replica gun using a common cartridge.
Hi Ian and fellow Forgotten Weapons fans I was wondering if the stock attachment side plate could be fitted to the target version of this gun.
Douglas Smith I don't see why not, the side plate should be exactly the same as the others. So theoretically you could take the side plate off the stocked gun and put it on the target model and it should work perfectly fine.
I wonder if any can answer a small question about this gun. If you empty the clip (so just one round in the chamber) it falls out. Can you then put a new clip in with a round still chambered?
A wild guess: Could /14 be the length of the barrel in bore diameter units?
Mikael Haglund sounds good to me
for small arms, the second number describes the length of the casing in millimeter .
That was my thought too, similar to large caliber cannon designations.
but i never seen this marking on a handgun. but it does seem likely since the number match up to the length of the barrel seemingly
-PROMETHEUS- Seems unlikely they'd suddenly start following conventions there though. Especially when they left the bore designation in guage.
If u Translate the German "Pistole" to french its "Pistolet" so i guess the "Pistolet Bergmann" was sold in france.
This series is fascinating! Thanks for the great videos!
Where did you manage to find so many Bermanns? To bad their ammo is a little on the weak side but they are cool looking pistols.
I didn't know there was such a diversity of configurations anf features on the Bergmanns. The 8mm sounds interesting. Perhaps it had slightly better ballistics than the 32 ACP. We may never know. Great video as always. Thank you
Hey Ian, love your channel so much! Could it be possible to get your hands on a H&K G11 for a video? Or at least, a discussion on caseless ammunition. I think it would be a really cool topic to hear what you have to say about. Cheers, and keep the good work!
OK, now I have to go back and rewatch the Simplex video...
could the "156/14" be representative of the loadout? similar to something like a 45-70. size if the projectile and amount of powder behind it.
Pretty sure it's actually barrel length in multiples of bore diameter, called calibers. It's usually a cannon description, not a small arm thing. For example, the Abrams tank gun is a 120/L44
That target shooting one looks great.
I expect we'll see a Bergmann of some description in BF1 at some point. These are seriously nice pistols.
Unfortunately that never happend. You do have the gun in the game Hunt Showdown tho. It is called the Bornheim in that game but it looks identical to the real thing. It even has the numbers on it as shown in this video.
@@joshualap401 my dude you replied to a 6 year old comment, i do not care
@@Chaosrain112 relax salt lord. I was just trying to help you out since you said you liked the gun, jeez
the gas hole is also on the opposite side on that last unusual gun
This is Mando's Pistol in the Mandalorian
Could it be that 156/14 be "gauge"/"length in calibers"?
Hi Ivan,
Ian explains it in the video e.g. the 156 is the bore or gauge e.g. 1 pound of lead would make 156 lead ball of bore diameter the same way you could make 12 balls of lead out of a pound of lead the same diameter of a 12 gauge/bore shotgun.
Hope this helps.
with a long barrel this thing does look really cool
That trigger spur might also be used rather as a position to hold onto the gun with the second hand when you're shooting double handed....
It is good to note that with your middle finger on the spur, it is much easier to reach the hammer with your thumb. This is demonstrated by firers of S&W Russian Top-Breaks - so your thumb is already moved a bit of the way up so it can reach the hammer easier.
this is the best channel on RUclips! thank you for always being so thorough 😀
These were also used by mandalorian bounty hunters
"So I tied an onion to my belt."
Why the 14? It's a magic number! :)
A cylinder with a nominal diameter of 8mm and a length of 14mm has a volume of 0.704mL
The density of lead is 11.3g/mL and 70.4% of 11.3 is 7.96.
8:03 Pistolet means pistol in French or Polish, technically also in Russian or Bulgarian, but I expect it would've been written in Cyrillic had it been exported to either of those places
I'm going to bet that the 8mm Bergmann was ballistically similar to the .32 ACP. Bingo. Find someone with a 3D metal printer, load the blueprints, and sell the freaking gun new in 32.
Also at 8:09 in French word "PISTOLET" means pistol translated in english (et at the end is a diminutive acutally so little pistol) for what it is worst is french if this item was intended for the french market maybe? And like on previous post "ET" at then end has the exact same pronunciation than "é" of Breveté.... we french love to make thing overly complicated no matter what...
www.ikonet.com/fr/ledictionnairevisuel/static/qc/prononciation/index/qc/6660/6660
バーグマンピストル、ずっと見てるとそのフォルムに魅了されてきた。
「これはいい物だ」byマ・クベ中将
Ian, I think you are doing a really great work intructing the ignorants plebs (such as myself) about firearms and their history. Overmore It seems to me that you re a perfectionist who is always trying to find out the proper sense and meaning of things... so if you may permit, i would suggest, since i already couple times heard you pronuncing the french word "breveté", I would give you an insight on how to pronunce the "é" at the end of the word just by listening this link :
www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/brevet%C3%A9_brevet%C3%A9e/11113
excuse my french but hey i am french :) nah joke aside Brevet (patent) or breveté (patented) are ovbiously part of history within your great videos footages, so I thought that a tiny correction would help going toward the veracity of our common past... anyway tx for your really good work and efforts you re putting in !
Davy
John Wayne as big Jake 1971 his son Patrick Wayne had one .
Leonard Janda that was a p38 dressed up to look bergmann-ish
There is a bergmann pistol in the John Wayne movie Big Jake i believe. It clearly shows the magazine in the grip?? Looks like the number 1?? Anyone know if this is a real model? Or a fantasy made up gun?
5:00 ... I wonder what that channel under the barrel being cut out different means between the two guns. The one on bottom has a longer channel/groove cut out that goes almost all the way to the screw... but the top one has a much shorter groove and the barrel appears to have some kind of lug or something (so that groove could not be cut as deep). Is that an early/late difference or a model 3/4 difference? (watched the video and didn't see it, so I hope I'm not asking a question that's already been answered).