I think they are both right, and this is all silly. As a consumer when shopping for a speaker, I'm going to evaluate on its performance and not really care about how it got there, assuming I have a chance to evaluate it. But once I own the speaker for a while and I want to upgrade, selling the speaker and going through the entire evaluation process and buying a new speaker used to be the only option. Now Danny offers an alternative, which is doing an upgrade to an existing speaker, and there's nothing wrong with that. I think Andrew is missing that the time for Danny's upgrade is when you get upgrade-itis, not when choosing a speaker to buy.
You're correct, it is silly. Personally, I agree with Andrew. If my speaker isn't exactly what I had hoped (after living with it for a while), I'll move on and look for something else. Have done that countless times over decades, which a lot of people will say is silly, and I won't argue that. I also understand that other people like the idea of upgrading what they have to hear what their speaker may be capable of. And maybe they like building crossovers, etc. They are both different avenues to get to the same place- a more enjoyable experience. Each to their own.
Andrew calls out GR Research by name in one of his videos so it's reasonable for Danny to believe that Andrew is pointing at GR Research as one of the small companies that has their business model as being speaker upgrades, yet correcting Andrew that in this case GR Research only does 10% of their business in speaker upgrades. So your aha gotcha moment is flawed. Additionally I take exception with your critique of Danny's video being too long and meandering. I thoroughly enjoy Danny's videos, he approached this one as a learning experience and was very gracious in inviting Andrew down to GR Research for a listening session. A real class act IMO. And an interesting video too. I am sorry that you found it boring and have a short attention span. While you do acknowledge parts matter in terms of reliability and consistency, it appears to me that you have an axe to grind with Danny. If your make the argument that iron core coils are ok for high end speakers crossovers for mid range and treble drivers for example, then I conclude that you don't know much. Also you repeated several of you statements multiple times so you aren't the the paradigm of brevity yourself. Not really very impressed with your video.
The difference between the two, is one has been designing, testing and building high quality products for most of his adult life, and one is a RUclipsr who listens to products.
@@alexdenton6586 Danny doesn’t just care about measurements, but clarity, texture, soundstage, depth, width, and separation of instruments. He’s often said that good measurements don’t necessarily mean a great speaker. I’ve spoken to him several times and he’s actually talked me out of an upgrade. I appreciate his honesty.
Don't liike Robinson and mystery lady at all. Just a bunch of rambling to sell shit. Danny sells $400 power cables. That alone loses all potential credibility. They both suck.
Not that I give a S but I will add that Robinson has been in the "industry" since the 80's. He has owned some serious hi end or expensive products. He does have credibility with listening to thousands of different components from the ultra high end to chi-fi. He did magazine/internet reviews for years. He's worked for a few big name audio manufacturers in their development departments. I have no dog is this fight but wanted to mention that I don't believe that many people actually know Andrew's background. It goes back many years before his RUclips channel ever existed.
It's not about BUYING speakers and then upgrading them. It's about upgrading speakers that you already own, which are sitting in a closet somewhere because you don't like the way they sound.
Only true if " the upgrade " changes the sound of speaker significantly , and more importantly , exactly to your liking . You have no way of knowing that before you spend a lot of cash . " Upgrades " that cost more than the original boxes are a fool`s errand. Sell the speakers you don`t like ( the ones " sitting in a closet somewhere " ) ! Then spend that , and upgrade money , on speakers that you DO like . At least that way you KNOW what you will be getting , and not be disappointed .
When i watch people that actually make music it very interesting as i realise most of them arent even interested in any of this bs and just use cheap monitors or headphones. Makes me wonder why i even bother in the end why not just buy the speaker the song was created on or get something similair.
@@hardystein114 KEF R3 Meta. Ruler flat response and excellent of axis performance just proves that parts in the crossover do not matter if the designer isnt thick.
Thank you for this video. I only want to know this: will the Elac Debut 2.0 with GR´s upgrade sound better than the Elac Carina Bookshelf? In that case I think Danny is right and it´s a good investment to upgrade the Elac Debut for a better sound. I think many massproduction speakers have problems with the frequencyresponse (speakers out-of-fase), the harmonic distortion, and have no transparancy, because of the cheapy cheese components used in the crossover. I build speakers myself, first with cheap components to test, so I don't have to spend much money. When I build the final result I use better quality components because you will hear the difference in detail and clarity in the sound. At this point I agree with Danny.
Andrew was 100% talking about Danny. He’s the only one with enough viewership to target. Danny is right about the speaker companies hitting a price point. I have one. I know
This just shows how extremely pretentious Dany is, thinking the world revolves around him and that people are automatically talking about him. It didn’t even cross his mind that it might not be about him. Secondly, he said it himself-this only represents 10% of his activity. So obviously, it wasn’t directed at him. What a narcissist
I agree. Totally obvious to anyone who knows Danny's channel. The Asian guy also went after Danny. Danny is an interrupter in the audio community's gravy train. Of course, anyone profiting on lies is going to hate someone who tells the Truth.
Don't people voluntarily send Danny speakers to measure and mod if neccessary in which case Danny is just providing a means to improve an existing product and it's upto the buyer if they want to go down that track ? The only issue I see is how can he guranatee the next pair of same speakers will benefit from a general purpose mod in the same way ?
@@BuzzardSalveThen it really has to be a set of bad speakers, manufacturers won't voice every speaker set they build, they might measure drivers to pair them if it's real high-end but that's about it.
Parts do matter. Whole this thing is that the manufacturers need to scale prioces for speakers from, cheap to expensive. Focal is greate example. Most expensive model of bookshelf speaker is about 20K which is price of small hybrid car. It does not have value of course. They could make it/sell it for 4K easely. But for 4K they do have model made up from cheap parts. This is result of pseudo science called marketing. If you do not have money, buy diy or arendal or upgrade. You wil get for up to 5K what other get for 20 or more. Or even if you have money.
And a final note: most of GR Research sales are for speakers they design and sale- either completely built and finished, or as DIY packages. Danny also is paid by speaker manufacturers to review and tweak speakers before the manufacturer releases them to the public. Just a FYI
@@SnapperX3 unfortunately so are there so much people that doesn’t see thru the hole video or are reading the comments instead of listening to all the talk. Check YT data for this video on your account.
GR Research is informing, educating, and providing people with sustainable options for better sound. Sounds Brilliant to me! Better than manipulative advertising and clickbait.
Well, when his videos' titles are all mocking other people's products, he IS manipulating his viewers. You hate passive manipulative ads, but you welcome active manipulative videos. How ironic it is. To me, it's no problem to inform, educate, and provide stuff he thinks is good. But his attitude is really toxic.
The way he shows how an upgrade can be achieved but using other manufacturers product is not healthy. Instead he should make his own speaker design using sub par components and make a reference video. Then upgraded the parts to better or more superior parts and make a video instead of only plotting graph before and after like what he is doing right now. From that viewers can know the difference right away. No one will be offended in the process. That's the way i would do if i were in his place.
I like your attitude to avoid offending others. ❤ Companies are not human though, or protecting those that sell junk? It would make sense if the goods would have been free like Danny's videos, but I think that paying customers have the right to know what they got with their money. And he also reports when goods are good. It is easy to see how much a difference his fix does from his videos. I like the possibility to improve what I have bought 🎉 as things have been made to price point out of necessity due to profit margins and retail middle men.
If Danny's business model is not about selling upgrade kits (only ~10% of his revenues, he claims), but about selling his own products, then why are 90% of his videos about upgrade kits?...
@@crazyprayingmantis5596Danny didn’t make a penny off of me but I learned a lot from his videos and upgraded my 30 year old speaker crossovers by myself, what an amazing difference, my newly purchased speakers are back in the box waiting for a future crossover upgrade !
@@Wuppie62 because these are the most popular videos he makes, but he does have videos on most of his own products also, but his lineup is not as extensive as all other speakers he has done upgrades for. Now I am not a super fanboy of GR, but his upgrades are good beyond anything I could afford when I tried one. His own products are even better, so I would rather recomend them instead of and upgrade as they are limited by existing drivers. But he does his best to make them as good as possible. So some upgrades might not be as good as others, but ultimatelly better than the starting point.
@@Wuppie62 because he is teaching for free. If you dont want to learn..DONT WATCH..he charges nothing for his lessons..and takes out time to make them..
I am not sure I've seen very many videos where GR Research found a speaker acceptable via his measurments and that didn't need his upgraded crossovers, no matter which brand they are or their cost.
Not true- if you watch GR- Research there have been speakers that Danny has said that are good. I have a pair of Yamaha NS1000M’s that I have owned since 1978 and I would be the first person to say that they sound too Bright. I was thinking about sending them to Danny to see what he could do with them and luckily someone else sent their speakers in. Saved me a lot of money trying to ship a speaker that weighs around 70 lbs each. The point is there is a lot of speakers out there that can be upgraded and that doing so would make sense. However- I would not upgrade a pair of Debut 2.0’s 🤔
@@nebtheweb8885 This is the disturbing truth in the industry that many ignore. They skimp on crossoverparts. Its as almost as iff they focus on the cabinets up until 10 000usd, before they finally go full on with the crossover, and another fact is that a well braced cabinett with great crossover is all u need to begin with great sound. All the other details manfactures do to cabinets first, only makes minor adjustments to the sound, and mainly it is how it spreads and resonances from the cabinet. So if you have bad parts, you will hear this lower quality sound distributed as best as possible throughout the room. So this does not make sense to me at all
So look at Danny's recent review of the Paradigm PF95 Prestige 10K. Danny exposes the extreme poor quality in cabinet, crossover design with very low impedance, poor quality crossover parts, and poor quality drivers. He concludes they aren't worth upgrading or buying. These are $5000 speakers.
5:47 - I see a flaw in your logic here. Andrew IS talking about Danny while simultaneously PROJECTING a FRAME around Danny's position by making it seem like his business is ALL about selling upgrades. Like a crafty politician, Andrew was redirecting 100% of the listener's attention at a small point in an effort to make it seem larger than reality. This is classic redirection. So it makes PERFECT SENSE that Danny would FIRST remove Andrew's projected frame, and THEN rebut Andrew's actual position. I hope that helps make sense of it to you.
II don’t think Danny intended these upgrades to be purchased before or during the purchase of a speaker. It is an improvement after the purchase. He mentioned many, many times that it is better to purchase speakers correctly designed to start with that doesn’t require modification. It’s like having a Honda Civc & modifying it to be a budget racer. You could have bought a Porsche 911 turbo to start with, but that is not what you have. Many have to work with what they have, not what they want. Not everyone can afford a $100,000+ performance vehicle, but may be willing to improve their $30,000 every day driver. So it can be with speakers. I can’t believe this is very profitable. It is very niche.
100% agree. This is the part that Andrew doesn't understand. Andrew only subjectively reviews brand new speakers (shipped to him most likely for free) for a living and is obviously not a DIY tinkerer with his "who cares" attitude. His "buy once" attitude only applies to those who are currently in the market for brand new speakers and those with big budgets. The car analogy is spot on: As with speakers, there are few "perfect" affordable cars on the market that have the right combination of looks, size, performance, etc that you are seeking. With a bit of sensible upgrades, you can drastically improve your enjoyment and performance of almost any car (e.g. ECU tuning, suspension, tires, brakes, new speakers(!), etc).
Have you ever replaced a simple capacitor ? Don’t have to buy a whole kit. I actually bought those elac B6.2. Replaced one cap with an $40 cap. Same value. Took 10 min after I removed xover .. listening A/B for hours. It’s astonishing the level of difference it made. Andrew jones is a brilliant designer but his hands were tied with some of the parts. Still plan on replacing the electrolytic caps on woofer circuit ( that also is designed to feed the tweeter prior to the poly cap they did put in ). No way they could do anything else and they sound decent out of the box. You are correct. You have to know what ur doing. Cheers
One guy sells products and one sells opinions. We all have opinions and we all know what they can be worth. I was a chef and corporate restaurant manager and we used to see reviewers hold onto jobs for years, sometimes decades, who were patently biased and/or ignorant. But if we sold bad food or Danny sells bad products the word gets out pretty quick and the money dries up pretty quickly. For what it's worth I bought two CSS kits rather than GR Research kits because the crossover boards were idiot-proof. I would like to see Danny do a kit for something I own that I haven't already rebuilt and upgraded myself so I could either confirm my support or not. But in the end, one guy is risking a lot more than the other when he hangs his ass out the window.
I purchased a pair of x-statiks with pre-built cross-overs and I loved them. I then went to purchase the nx-oticas. I do like them a lot, but if you ask me if I would do it again...I would not. I wish there were better instructions, drawings, crossover board. Now having fully upgraded x-statiks and fully upgrades nx-oticas it is my opinion that the X-statik is one of the best buys in all of audio.
DIY vs the "right thing" about 25 years ago, A guy named Thorston Leosche cloned a set of wilson-watt puppies. These were about $20,000 in 1999. His entire bill (including Peerless HD drivers) was $2,000. Everyone that heard them said they sounded better than the focal drivers. Smoother, and more even response. So this begs 2 questions: 1. What if the right speaker is way beyond your ability to afford it? 2. What if your DIY is better for 1/10th the cost? Also back in the day: people buy high end stuff (shiny and expensive so they must be great...right?) Just to decide in a few months it's NOT what they wanted? How many young people 1. Can afford 2, Know what they want?
@@MaxPower-zp7wy no. It’s fixing what’s left off at a price point or via poor engineering. It’s fair use for people’s property. If I buy something, it’s mine to do with as I want. B&W isn’t perfect The diamond tweeters are a joke.. So is making some of them in China and still overcharging.
I stand by what I said. I don't agree with changing someone's else's product patent, design. I certainly aren't going to buy a modified product from a brand when it's no longer standard from the standard set by the Creator. No there is no law stopping you from modding anything after you buy it. But I aren't going to buy a modded speaker when it's been changed from the original design. You don't get the point. That's ok. You have your opinion. I have mine. @@scottlowell493
I don't really think any speaker is perfect. Not one. Every speaker from most brands out there are out to do you. They are all made to a price point. You want a perfect speaker you need to build your own. Lol@@scottlowell493
I think the problem of the example is that the guy you mentioned can copy the product by diy, but he cannot sell it, because it has a copyright, and behind that there is someone or a bunch of guys working hard to design it. They need to be paid. Not to mention there are many other factors in the pricing. Of course, the profit may still be a huge number, but using 2000 as its 'true value' is totally unfair.
I bought one of Danny's upgrades for a pair of B&W 606S2 speakers I own. The upgrade sounds really good. Much better over stock and much better than the "spend a little extra" model. It still has that clean, clear, and controlled characteristics that B&W speakers are known for. The upgrade adds body, depth, consistency across frequencies, and a foundation to my music that is really fun and refreshing. Things to keep in mind. Danny's upgrades are not turnkey solutions. It took a lot of planning, work, and trial and error to stuff all those parts into a relatively small space. I now know why Danny does not off an upgrade service. It's a lot of work. Second, I had to be willing to accept the risk that I could ruin these speakers and be out the cost of the upgrade parts and the speakers. Third, I had to accept the risk that I was not capable of implementing the upgrade. Fourth, depending on the project, this could take a lot of time, patience, and creative engineering to get all the parts to fit in the box. Fifth, if you start with junk you may end with better junk. In my case, B&W makes really good drivers and cabinets. The woofer, for example, is the same part used in the 706S2 speakers which is more than twice the costs of the 606. So, don't expect that you are going to take a piece of trash and turn it into a $10k competitor for speaker of the year. Keep your expectations realistic. Finally, this is definitely not for everyone. Be sure you want to do this before you start down this road. There is no free lunch when it comes to better sound.
@@mrman7453 I could do that. But that wasn't the question I was answering. What I did not say above is that the 606's were sitting on a shelf collecting dust after they were replaced by a pair of 705 S2 Signature speakers that I got really good deal on. They had a little surface damage and needed one of the tweeters replaced. I put a little TLC into these and they look and sound great! Full retail for these speakers is $4k. I think the price delta between the two speakers qualifies for the "pay a little more" theory. Do the upgraded 606's sound better than the Signatures? No. There are things the Signatures do that the 606's physically cannot compete with due to the physical driver topology. That's physics. However, the upgraded 606's are competitive enough that they are now sitting on my desk and the Signatures are on the shelf collecting dust. The upgraded 606's sound fantastic and are a lot of fun to listen to. I can also tell you that Danny's crossover design, and parts, are more significant than the Signatures. I can also tell you that the differences between the 705 S2 and 705 S2 Signature Crossovers are so minor that one could surmise that the Signature crossover simply corrects issues with the original 705 S2s crossover design. Bottom line, I had an older pair of speakers sitting around collecting dust. I didn't really need them for anything. I also did not want to sell them. The upgrade, in this case, cost significantly less than both the original speakers or a new set of speakers. And I was looking for a new project. So, I went for it. I could have just thrown money at another manufacturer. I purposely chose not to. Why? Let's imagine I have a $1500 to $2000 budget. Which is more than the speakers and upgrade cost combined. I cannot think of anything I have listened to over the last five years that compete at that "spend a little more" next level than what I ended up with. I am sure there is a whole internet full of audiophiles who will disagree with me or offer their opinions of what they believe are better buys or sound better. But, at the end of the day, there is only one pair of ears I am concerned with pleasing: mine. And my ears are really enjoying my upgraded 606s. Would I run out today and buy another pair of 606's just to upgrade? No. The upgrade process carries a lot of risks. I could just as easily end up with trash as I did with treasure.
If I'm going to listen to someone when it comes to actual audio equipment It's going to be a guy like Danny who actually knows what's in a speaker and what it does vs a youtuber who "doesn't care".
I don't know much about Andrew but correct me if i am wrong, he is just a reviewer, while Danny is a designer/ engineer. Thats like comparing apples to oranges.
there's a distinction to be made between upgrading & restoring. some audio enthusiasts have long-owned or acquire (on the very cheap) some decent (or beloved) speakers from the past that can use attention. Danny's physical examination & analytical testing of performance of these classics can be useful for those who enjoy restoration, repair... maybe even some "upgrading" along the way. if your cost basis on an old set of nice speakers is near zero, buying what you need in small retail quantity isn't such a big deal. most aren't buying lotsa "overpriced" components... just a few. & Danny's shop isn't the only source for parts either. I haven't bought anything from (or via) either of those guys, but I find Danny delivers more data-based info than Andrew. this helps me to evaluate more than just "how it sounds". {imo, how-it-sounds is not easily derived anyway - until one has listened to speakers for a few months in their own listening space, driven by their own system, playing the selections w/ which they have long familiarity. direct comparison w/ one's personal reference speakers is also valuable.}
Agreed. When I acquired my then 10 year old Celestions for a pittance, it was necessary but very cost effective to strip and rebuild them - good quality internal wiring, proper binding posts, complete xover rebuilds and some cosmetic work. Now, some 40 years and another four xover refreshes later, my now 50 year old speakers bring me joy every day. I, for one, have found it possible to buy cheaply but wisely and judiciously overhaul and upgrade, and enjoy a lifetime of quality musical reproduction that would otherwise have been out of my fiscal reach. Regards.
And remember these are speakers that owners send in because they’re not happy with them even though they bought them expecting to be. And it may well be worth spending as much or slightly more on the upgrade than the cost of the speaker as what you’ll get will be better than buying a speaker of the that combined cost as that other speaker will still contain the same junk crossover parts thus limiting its performance (assuming it measures well to begin with)
There are two kinds of people. The first are those that think the more that something cost the better it must be. The second are those that will ask why pay double when I can get the same results with parts that cost half the money.
Danny sells $400 power cables. lol Talk about a scammer. They both suck and I haven't watched either for years. Erins audio, SA and Audio Science Review is the place to be.
@@richardpowell6096 With a couple mouse clicks I've discovered that Danny is an audio engineer who used to work for Focal designing speakers and crossover networks. Therefore Danny is most certainly an actual expert on the subject. What are Andrew's qualifications???
I am subscribed to both of these channels and thoroughly enjoy the content of both. I believe that Andrew and Danny both present opinions based on their areas of expertise and appreciate all the information presented. It is our responsibility to take this information and make our own choices. I don't believe there are very many of us that are purchasing audio equipment with the sole intent of turning around and buying an upgrade kit. Many of us have had these for years. Also, in this day and age many retailers offer the option to return products, within a reasonable timeframe, when you are not satisfied with your purchase. Andrew has mentioned this on several occasions and to quote, "The only person that has to like the sound of your system is you!". As for the kits that Danny sells, prices vary widely by the brand of speaker being upgraded. I have browsed the GR Research on several occasions and never come across that much of a disparity. Thank you for that information but it doesn't seem to be the norm. That being said, thank you for your opinions on this heated topic and I have subscribed and look forward to more of your videos.
Sorry my man but you are wrong in your assessment of what Andrew said in total. Do you know how many speaker companies never show their crossover networks inside of the speakers?”Andrew and Christy were both saying “who wants to see the inside of the speaker? I have the KLH the original KLH Kendall Towers go try to find a picture of the cross of a network inside of that speaker.!? It’s a custom built crossover that helps the speakers achieve a 96 DB sensitivity as well as reach down to 25 Hz. But I can’t find a picture of it nor the insides of that speaker, a cutaway cross-section. My question is to you with speakers needing at least a couple of weeks to break in along with any other equipment return time not to mention the pain in the ass it takes to return speakers may have expired. So how was one to know whether or not they have cheap crossover parts like Danny has discovered on speakers like Sonos Faber and others if there is no discussion about them whether or not they are custom built, crossovers or off the shelf ones!!? so you really missed the point altogether, which makes your entire video kind of pointless. It’s very easy to buy something that looks good clicks are your boxes but if you can’t really look inside of it just like you said I don’t want to spend $2500 on a speaker that has a crossover network that may not hold up for five years or more. so nice try but this video is a fail.
I thought Andrew was talking about GR-RESEARCH when I watched the video, and I still think that he was. Who else was he talking about? I'm fans of both channels, and I own a pair of X-Statik speakers from GR-RESEARCH.
@@tweedeldee8122 one Asian audio RUclipsr ended up buying those $400 cable from Danny after listening to them both at GR Research and at his home. Go figure. Pls listen for yourself in your home if any of those high priced items are worth it or not.
Greetings ! I joined your channel, several months ago, and truly enjoy your installments. Both guys are right, in one vein or another. BOTH made a valid point, here and there. I DO take exception to you las point however -- you are making an assumption that the Corina's "Parts" squarely (more expensive/better) than the parts of the Debut. Without disassembly/review, the increase in cost cannot be ascertained. Looking forward to your next installment....Rip
Problem with Danny is that his cure is almost as expensive as the disease. But Danny has also shown how the companies are saving money inside the speaker by using cheap and awful parts.
@mondoenterprises6710 "awful parts" is another sham. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a sand cast resistor, for example, in fact many people prefer them. But I'm going to tell you right now if you think you can hear a difference by going to an "air" coil resistor, I've got a bridge to sell you. He also sells power cables and wires and claims you'll hear a difference with those. Should tell you something. But hey, a fool and his money are easy to part.
@@Audfile A lot of products are sold because the extreme subjectivity of human hearing is not well known to consumers. They think what the brain tells them is reality ,without understanding that if you want to hear something, the brain will oblige. it doesn't care about the reality of sound because that was not an evolutionary advantage.
If you know Danny only by his RUclips videos, you could assume that GR research is mostly about selling crossover upgrades, therefore he felt necessary to clarify.
Clearly we all have imperfect hearing and the perfect linear system perfect test sound, still will not sound right to our individual hearing and "TASTE" - therefore the imperfect speaker might be the perfect one for our imperfect hearing or our taste - some like warm, some like cool and some may like what others claim to be perfect.
How our brain processes sound is the most complex of all our senses. We are still evolving in that understanding. Until you understand that you are just guessing at what matters and what doesn't. Every speaker design is a calculated compromise based on the designers belief of the relative importance level and the jury may still be out on some of those choices. The acoustics of your listening space may mean what worked well for someone else may not for you. Trial listen to speakers in your own room that are within your budget and then purchase what you enjoy and return what you don't.
Okay so, the thing is I have to say your wrong and Andrew is wrong as well and I have to say this BUYING THE MORE EXPENSIVE MODEL WON'T GIVE YOU THE LEVEL OF COMPONENTS QUALITY THAT GR RESEARCH IS OFFERING IN THEIR KITS!!! not even close, if U talk about Elac speaker's that cost $300 retail how much is the material cost plus manufacturing? Or if U get the $1000+ models how much of a percentage are the material cost? Maybe less then 25%? U won't find crossover parts that cost around $300 in any speakers below $5000!!! U do get what U pay for, for a company to produce products that are affordable they need to make profit, the transport/packaging to the retailer has to be factored in plus the retailer has to make profit too, no one works for free!!
Making crossovers that sound good with the right speaker units requiers a lot of scientific knowledge, testimg etc. and a lot of brands do it the easy way and earning easy money with a nice or lifestyle looking box or shape speaker.
I believe there's a lot truth to that. A friend of mine manufacturers speakers, and the amount of time and effort he puts into designing a new model is incredible. The guy works night and day. That's one of the reasons I'm a little skeptical when it comes to GR's upgrades. I'm not questioning Danny's honesty at all. He truly believes in what he's doing. That said, I have a hard time believing how someone like Danny can spend a day or so coming up with an upgrade kit on products that took so much time and effort to make by the original designer. Just to be clear, I fully admit that I may be missing something in all this. This is how I see it, and I could be wrong.
@@052RC Some speaker manufacturers purposely produce speakers with a frequency response that isn’t flat because some people prefer exaggerated bass or rolled off highs. Adding coloration to produce a “house sound” that certain people enjoy is producing a speaker that is not truly hi-fi because it cannot accurately reproduce the sound as recorded. Danny’s number one priority is coming as close to ruler flat as he can and some people fault him for it because he may not do listening tests etc. It makes no sense to praise a manufacturer who takes a great deal of time and effort and still doesn’t produce an accurate product and then bash Danny for quickly correcting it.
So why do people upgrade their cars, or kitchens, or houses, or many other things they buy? It's perfectly legitimate and more fun to upgrade anything you have bought in the past. Keep it going Danny.
Which, according to some reports, starts deteriorating -- essentially rotting away like foam woofer surrounds from from the 1970s -- after a couple of years.
It's funny that Andrew even mentioned the sound of the speakers as being a criteria. I thought he was focused on the aesthetics of the equipment and how well they compliment the decor in his home.
the problem is so many audiophiles have no understanding of how human hearing works, or the basic laws of electricity. such knowledge would prevent a lot of bad decisions about snake oil products.
It's the science that hopefully keeps the speaker designers on their toes. Being a boutique company doesn't mean that building a proper speaker is beyond them. Personally two of my favourite review sites are Erin's Audio Corner and Jay Iyagi.
Andrew didn't say parts don't matter. He said buy right the first time. His point about using a nickel and a paper clip for a cross over wasn't about parts quality it was about design.
@@patfrederick7327 I agree with you about the snake oil. The only answer I can come up with is due diligence on the part of the buyer and a loud vocal crowd of audiophiles speaking out on behalf of science, facts and rational thought.
So look at Danny's recent review of the Paradigm PF95 Prestige 10K. Danny exposes the extreme poor quality in cabinet, crossover design with very low impedance, poor quality crossover parts, and poor quality drivers. He concludes they aren't worth upgrading or buying. This sounds like a huge service to me for someone that may be considering these speakers thinking that $5000 would get them something nice. It's hard to fault that unless you are Paradigm or a store selling these speakers.
Here's the problem with "buy right the first time", especially for people in a budget or moderate price range, like the majority of Robinson's subscribers. It is virtually impossible for someone buying commercially available speakers at moderate price range to actually "buy right". Even if the engineering is good, crossover parts are almost always compromised, since they are hidden, and are not a viable aspect for the manufacturer to spend money on. If someone spends a few grand on a pair of good sounding speakers, it is almost a certainty that the crossover can be improved with better parts, better bracing can be added, sound damping material can be added, and make the speaker even better. So, what happens if they save up more money, and buy a speaker higher up in the same speaker company's line? They may get bigger woofers, larger enclosure, maybe a bit more bracing, but the chances of iron core inductors being replaced by air core, or poly caps being upgraded with copper foil caps, is not very likely. So even if they believe that by saving up more money, will mean they are actually "buying right", is unlikely to be the case.
the one thing I noticed is that after Scientific Audiophile criticized RUclipsrs for not including measurements in their video reviews, now a bunch of them are including ❤
Danny has a business, and he promotes it. Crossover parts can make a difference,but just flattening the response on a shitty designed and sounding speaker just gets you a shitty sounding speaker with a flat response. I did one one of his mods to my LRS + and didn't like it. For most consumers, Andrew is right.
@@j-rod6420 it's not as simple as saying you did not like the sound of the upgrade. We dont know what u listen for in a speaker?? What I do know is that my upgrades got me more insight and pleasure than expected.
@Rockit66 I'm absolutely sure crossover upgrades in some speakers will make a difference. I'm a diy guy, but I think for most,try to audition, use reviews as a guide, only and let your ears decide. I don't want to go into much of the LRS+ mods,but @OCDHIFIGUY is on the ball here. They need a high pass filter as they will distort at decent volumes,and a sub.
There’s another scenario that makes the upgrade route the way to go. I’m a big DIY guy because you can’t beat the bang for the buck doing it yourself. You mentioned the Elac 6.2’s in the vid. I got a used pair for $150. I watched Danny’s video to understand the tweeks he implemented and purchased the upgrade parts myself mostly thru Partsconnextion in Canada. So with the parts and the speakers I was all in at around $400 total. Then difference in detail, separation and depth was substantial. I was also able to tweek the tone of the speaker more to my liking by using cap’s that gave me what I was looking for based on advice for Partsconnexition. There’s nothing I’ve heard for $400 that comes close. Danny’s channel and your channel are my two favorites for different reasons. When I click on your video I know I’m gonna be entertained and well as informed. Danny has enriched me with knowledge of speaker design that I can’t find anywhere else on RUclips and has enabled me to enrich my listening pleasure on a budget. Keep doing what you do. No one else does it like you.
It all boils down to your budget and how you want it to sound. Personally ive played around with several sets of speakers over the years. You can improve any speaker with a few changes and Danny gives you that option. Cant say ive purchased any GR research products but I have messed around with crossovers as well as bracing and sound deadening with very noticeable results. The problem is the gamble you take purchasing. Theres limited options these days to actually demo something before you buy it.
I agree totally with Andrew. Imo the cost of doing these upgrades is not economically worth it. If you aren’t happy with the sound of your speakers sell them and move on. If you go for the upgrades and you still don’t prefer the sound of your speakers you are stuck with them and will not recoup the added upgrades cost if you try to sell them. It’s a no brainer to me.
Agreed. I have more than once seen speakers for sale with these upgrades (GR research) hoping for, and asking, a premium. They eventually sell for what a non-upgraded pair would have, or less...
You can't base your conclusion on the upgrade cost used in this video. The example used is cherry picked to give the worse possible results, yet this isn't informed in the video and comes across as disingenuous to me. And yet he calls out Danny not including the cost in his video. So which is worse, cherry picking data for a skewed result, or not including the price information which is available on the GR Research web site?
@@todd8155 I am not basing my opinion on the upgrade cost used in this video at all. I personally would not go this route and would not buy used speakers where someone has “apparently” upgraded them. But to each their own.
@@allanellis5827 Yeah each gets to make their own choice and I support that. I would buy an otherwise good value used speaker that had a properly executed GR Research speaker upgrade. Especially it the speaker was close in value to the same speaker without the upgrade. For the right price, I would even go back in and complete a botched upgrade assuming that all the high quality upgrade parts were there. I would not buy the Elacs for $200, then spend $600 on an upgrade as I look for value and am a careful shopper. A GR Research upgrade may or may not be good value based upon each individual case. I would not totally rule them out.
@@todd8155I think most people in the used market would like to pass upgraded products, except the upgrade is tubes or it's the upgrade he/she also happens to like. If you are in the used market, you already want something cheaper, and the upgrade, most time, makes it more expensive.
We used to have audio shops with educated sales people to teach consumers about audio gear. Now, anyone can be an "Audio reviewer" on RUclips. That's a big part of the issues as I see it. The dumbest ones seem to have the biggest subscriber base. Parts matter. Crossovers matter as much as driver choices, cabinet construction. Most modern speakers utilize either a 2nd order butterworth or 4th order butterworth crossover. A 2nd order butterworth speaker adds half a cycle of phase shift. 4th order designs add a full cycle. This means the drivers do not start or stop at the same time. How can this be “accurate”? And that's at the crossover point. A different amount of time delay is added at every frequency as you move away from that crossover point. You can not fix a 2nd order crossover. Most designers flip the polarity of one driver, which may flatten frequency response but anytime you INVERT polarity on a driver, it's bad for the purity of the waveform. In other words, when the amplifiers signal is telling the drivers to move OUT, the woofer may move IN as the tweeter moves OUT. Andrew: Who cares"? Can you hear this? Yes. Just listen to a speaker (or headphone) without that time delay. How much time delay was imposed? Exactly one full period of the crossover frequency. If that was 400Hz, then the time delay between the two drivers is 1/400th second, or 2.5 milliseconds, which is ~32 inches for time of travel, acoustically on a 4th order network. So when Andrew Robinson says "Who cares"? it's obvious he is lacking in understanding of what a crossover does to the SOUND of the speakers. Speakers are built to a price point. What parts are cheapened, or where costs are cut varies from speaker to speaker. Most designers just use a computer program to design the crossover. Gets you close, and that's good enough for most designers.
How our brain processes sound is the most complex of all our senses. We are still evolving in that understanding. Until you understand that you are just guessing at what matters and what doesn't. Every speaker design is a calculated compromise based on the designers belief of the relative importance level and the jury may still be out on some of those choices.
I like Andrew . I don’t know who the hell the other guy is and don’t care . I’m disabled and can’t get out to shop and look and touch devices. I’ve bought my home theater just based on his descriptions of products. Same with my music only system . Andrew is the real deal the other guy is trying to to create attention to his channel solely by attacking a bigger channel .
tbf Danny has said on numerous occasions not to buy a speaker for immediate upgrade. Its pretty obvious Andrew was singling out Danny, and Danny imo was right to correct Andrew on his assumption regarding the business.
The "buy once, cry once" methodology just doesn't work... As I get more and more years into this hobby, and hear more speakers, my taste changes. As I become a more refined listener, my taste changes. As I hear more, higher quality speakers, my taste changes. Parts upgrades are a great middle ground between keeping what I have that I no longer enjoy as much, and forking over thousands of dollars for the next level of speaker that I will inevitably outgrow.
Not a hobby! scientificaudiophile.myspreadshop.com/not+a+hobby+speakers+boy-A661ed7acfd1cee0bacba4a9c?productType=812&sellable=rNRYqqjXEVc9M5ZyOM4N-812-7&appearance=397
People who buy upgrade kits already made the mistake of buying the wrong speaker. So they are looking to fix that. Nobody is buying speakers only to go to Danny for an upgrade (except maybe they get them used cheaply)
Not quite true! speakers that sound great today, may not sound so great few years later for various reasons. (Financial, room shape/size, taste develops/changes, etc.) Also, even if you buy not cheap speaker that sounds good at the time, doesn't mean that you haven't been skimmed by the manufacturer that used a cheap parts or hasn't taken the best advantage of the drivers. It could just be that the designer has not the best skills.
I disagree. Upgrading crossovers is a fun project. Even if just replacing with higher quality parts equal value. There is benefits to be made to almost any speaker under $6000. The parts quality in factory speakers is not good. There is something to be said for knowing you brought the best out of your speakers.
@@JR-ho5qm I am solidly on the record as pro fun. I also think any speaker up grade that doesn't start with improving the drivers is erroneous. But of course, better drivers means a complete redesign.
9:00 - You and Andrew are BOTH are completely wrong on this point. Yes, BULK purchasing makes the MANUFACTURER's COST for the parts lower. But they all MARK IT UP when selling to the END USER to increase the PROFIT MARGIN. And there's the LABOR COST. Buying the parts yourself and doing the labor to upgrade a speaker will ALWAYS be cheaper than the MARK UP a manufacturer adds to their retail price. I can't believe you do not understand this, OR if you DO understand it, you conveniently ignore and omit this fact.
Here’s a thought; as a long time audio fanatic (I hate to call myself and audiophile), and part time DIY speaker and amp builder, I think it’s possible for both of them to be right as far as they go. In my own experience I’ve definitely heard the difference that parts can make in XOs - material types and composition more than simply “quality = more expensive, and gee just happen to sell those” . So yeah, but sorry A&K, but there are some of us who do care, because we’ve experienced it for ourselves. I very much enjoy both their channels, but have no trouble disagreeing with some positions and opinions expressed by either for example “magic cables and interconnects” . I’m inclined to think that Andrew’s statement with which Danny takes the major exception could be based on the former’s ignorance of the scope of GR’s “business model”, and perhaps sufficient smug arrogance - of which I’m not the first to note - to not want to research further. If I’m not mistaken, Andrew has expressed an active disinterest - if not disdain - for the DIY community in general. I could probably think of more to add, but that’s enough conflagration for now; too bad it’s only 10:00 Saturday morning as I write this, or I’d be off for my happy hour snack of home made Pinot Gris, taco chips and salsa and tunes. Cheers.
@@scientificaudiophile Precisely as you said in the later section of your own rambling incoherent drunken ramble 🤭🤭 - just kidding. Both are simultaneously right and wrong about different aspects of the subject. Now, time for some housecleaning.
Just curious, what makes you think the Elac debut 2.0 b6.2 is not going to sound much better than the Carina after the upgrade? Personally I have not heard the upgraded Debut 2.0 b6.2 but I certainly have heard the Carina and I do not like it at all.
@@scientificaudiophile You example is flaw. For a car there are too many things to take into consideration. As for speaker we are mainly talking about sound quality.
@@scientificaudiophile And what does all these you mentioned boils down to? Trying to achieve a better sound quality. And yes, the crossover is one of the most important part in speaker building. Do you buy a car just basing on how powerful the engine is? Or how fast it can go from 0-100km/h?
There are also folks who purchase used (like me), and yes I consider myself an audio hobbyist, not an audiophile (unless we use Steve Guttenberg's definition). As an audio hobbyist some of the things I enjoy include; Listening to the systems I have. The thrill of the hunt for used (and some new) parts for my systems. Restoring parts of the systems. Improving my systems by mixing & matching components. (By way of example who would have thought that a pair of Carver Amazing Loud Speaker Platinums would pair and sound great with an NAD 2200 PE amplifier?) Building speakers. But back to the point, if you purchase used and pay fractions of retail for the speakers then upgrades can make sense. For example, I purchased a pair of Magnepan .7s for ~$400 and they sound pretty darn good. If I were to add the GR Research kit at $289 I would have a pair of speakers for ~$700 which will sound as good as or better than speakers in the multiples of, if not 10s of thousands of dollars. This assumes Danny's kit performs as advertised, which I have not heard any reviews where his kits made things worse. So I agree you probably shouldn't buy a new pair of speakers with the intent of upgrading them (there are probably exceptions to this broad statement). However there are reasons to purchase Danny's kits, including the reasons above. and perhaps you just have speakers for decades that you like and find aesthetically pleasing but want to make them better. An analogy might be the '68 Mustang you bought in the '70s, but all you could afford was a 6 banger with an automatic. Now you have money which you could buy a Tesla Model 3 with. Or for less you can put a 351 Windsor, four speed stick, beef up the suspension, a posi-traction rear end, a new paint job with a tricked out interior in the '68 Mustang. The Tesla will be faster, more comfortable, more reliable, safer and technologically superior in many ways. But you don't get the same feeling or the same head turns and nods of appreciation as you will from the Mustang. So I believe for some people Andrew is right and for others Danny is right. Also I think the reason Danny believes Andrew may be referring to GR Research is because most of Danny's RUclips presence is his upgrade videos, irrespective of what percentage of his sales it comprises. I suspect the reason for his video has a lot to do with many of his subscribers messaging him that Andrew was talking about him. If your followers believe someone is talking about you then the perception is there and perception is everything on RUclips.
I want to issue a challenge to the channel: Let's compare a set of brand new speakers and a set of GR Research upgraded speakers, and see if the upgrade is worth it. Let's use the Elac speakers mentioned in the video, the Elac Debut B6.2. Now, if you bought the Elac Debut B6.2, and you want to buy a better set of speakers, you need to sell you current speakers first. The 2nd hand price of a pair of Debut B6.2 is around $250 - $300 (from what I saw on HiFi Shark). So, now let's add the $580 cost of the upgrade, and that means you have to buy a set of speakers in the $830 to $880 price range for the comparison to be fair. So here's the challenge: get a set of 2nd hand Elacs and do the upgrade. Then get a new set of Elacs in the $830 to $880 range, and listen to both, and give your honest opinion. This is the only real thing that will properly advance this debate.
@scientificaudiophile , that's a touch difficult on two fronts: 1. I am in South Africa, so shipping, customs, and excise gonna kill my budget, 2. My budget. I can't even afford the Elac Debuts to start with. 😂 Luckily, down here in the tip of Africa, we get stuff on the 2nd hand market as cheap as chips.
You’re totally missing the point, people can upgrade speakers and they mostly send Danny their speakers to measure and often improve…And yes sometimes kits he sells includes no-res for cabinet vibrations and he makes statements for extra braces.. Audiophiles are a weird breed and they love to tinker and if they buy speakers they’re happy with in first place but get tired of after a year or a couple of years..Instead of buying new speakers you could go the upgrade route and measurably improve the sound coming from those speakers…Danny isn’t selling snake oil for the most part and yes his business is mostly selling plans and flatpack kits to build your own speakers…
Buying a new product at full retail with the plan to upgrade it is foolish and expensive. But if you already own a speaker with good bones, the upgrade could make it something really special.
@@sloboat55 No-rez improved the Klipsch Forte 2s I had for a time. I got them specifically to try No-rez and new crossover parts (speaker was 25 years old) as I am a skeptic. Both no-rez and the new crossover (same design, all new parts) made obvious differences. If you have a good front end and a good ear, parts make a difference, and it was a fun project.
I don't recall if this was mentioned in the video, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't. But if you watch GR's videos, I don't think I've ever heard him making any claims that someone's speakers aren't good and they need his upgrades. It seems more like his typical upgrade customer bought speakers that they're not happy with for some reason. If the issues aren't too severe, an upgrade may very well be the best choice for some people. We've all been there at one time or another. We buy a pair of speakers that seemed like the right choice at the time, but once we live with them for a while, we hear flaws. It usually happens when were new and evolving as listeners. I know that I've made some jackass decisions. I remember investing at least 20k in my system trying to make a pair of B&W speakers listenable. In the end, I found out the problem was the binding posts. I plugged my speaker cables into the binding posts on my ProAc's and the problem went away.
I as a viewer, don't usually buy what Andrew recommends is better or Danny's upgrade kits, I watch their to learn and to take the right decision, as they both are exaggerating products for money out of their videos. What I or a viewer should is do to keep learning and if needed upgrade yourself as Danny recommends or buy what Andrew recommends sounds better and costs lower. Its learning and getting wiser from their truth and lies.
If the speaker sound good ... don't mess with it. As long as the speaker cabinet has no resonance, has no distortion, has limited driver compression ... I don't need to modify the frikkin cross over. BecauseI use measurement & correction software prior the DAC. And when push comes to shove .. your room acoustics probably suck anyway if you speaker does not sound good.
The thing is, Danny's measurements don't include distortion numbers or frequency response below 200 Hz -- he says down that low it's all about the room, so he doesn't believe in testing at those frequencies, ignoring the fact that many serious music lovers listen in the near field, where mid-bass performance in close proximity to the woofer is a very significant factor in enjoying recorded music. Moreover, his test gear is obsolescent and the response curves he presents are smoothed out -- he sells "No-Rez" but his those curves are *Low* "Rez" -- past the point of usefulness.
I love both Andrew and Danny, and I am a tweaker, so Andrew’s comment did rub me the wrong way! I’ve upgraded many cheap caps on many speakers in my 35yrs as an audiophile. Sometimes the change was better, and a couple times I reverted to the original caps, or different caps. They really DO sound different. But I’ve only done this to old speakers, or ones that I wanted to modify. And that’s what Danny is offering. I don’t see why Andrew paints that in a negative light.
The act of designing speakers BEGINS with cabinet design and driver selection. One cannot simply "fix" those poor decisions downstream with better crossover parts or different crossover design. Andrew is just saying to buy a speaker that fits your use case FROM THE START. This remains excellent advice. Danny has GOT to get thicker skin. This is not a good look for GR Research.
@@hardystein114 I know, right? Also like performance cars; the answer for 99.999% of buyers is to buy the car that already has the power + performance you need. Rather than buying a car with somewhat less power/performance and trying to tune/bolt-on the delta from the car one SHOULD have bought in the first place.
Have you actually done a crossover for a speaker? Take measurements of the tweeter and mid woofer, and design a crossover based on these measurements with an objective of really integrating the two? Have you looked and analyze the phases of each driver and look where the phases mesh the best? And then, do you know how electrolytic capacitors are different from propylene foil capacitors, or that air core inductors are better for mid drivers and tweeters (as supposed to laminated core inductors which are suited more for subwoofer due to cost considerations. The point is when you already own a speaker, and there is a way/option to improve it, it's up to you to do it (and send money). It's no different from chucking away your old speaker (that you are dissatisfied with) and seek to buy a "better" speaker--that's is upgrading too.
@@raynerstuelgalid Yes I have actually done all those things. Your point is moot; the person bought the WRONG speaker. They would be vastly better off getting educated and experienced....and then buying speakers that actually fit his use case. The crossover is NOT a fix-all. It will not cause drivers that are inherently incompatible to somehow...magically be compatible. My original point stands.
@@DBravo29er the statement about fixing the problem downstream is false. A manufacturer can make two identical boxes with the same drivers. Ad great parts in one, and cheap parts in another and sell them at different price points.
Andrew must know what he's talking about. He has a piece of McIntosh gear in the background ! Why did he buy Mac gear if he doesn't care about what's inside ? Can he hear the difference between that and an amp that costs a quarter as much ? He's just trying to make himself look good.
Danny does not suggest you go buy speaker and plan to upgrade. He offers upgrades for speakers you already own. Danny said it sounds like he is talking about GR research knowing how the less knowledgeable reviewers always incorrectly accuse him.
It’s when you drink half the bottle and then crossover to the other side of the room to talk to that lady who has gotten more beautiful with every sip. 😂
People don't buy speakers they know they don't like just to upgrade the crossover they know nothing about. Which is how Andrew is framing the conversation.
It's obvious what Andrew was saying and obvious Danny feels slighted by the comment. Imo it makes no sense to try and upgrade a speaker with any companies upgrade kit. If the kit cost maybe 30% of the full speaker price then maybe. Only maybe if I was interested in seeing if I could do the work myself. I definitely wouldn't be paying more than double the speaker price look for sonic panacea. I think GR is just a grifter business. But that's just my opinion.
I understand what you are saying about quality control and speakers lasting more than a few years, but I have some entry level bookshelf's form 30 years ago ( Infinity at that, 150.00 for the pair) and they are not falling apart and work perfectly fine to this day. Believe me they have been a little abused over the years with all the moving while I was in the Army. And I would think they have made strides in what they use to put these things together these days that are better quality than 30 plus years ago. yes, you do get what you pay for, but you also have to match what you buy so you don't blow up a crossover or the actual speaker because you have to much power for it. Understand what you are buying and it's limits.
I can’t wait until the SA has 1million subscribers. Then the audio industry will be reformed. By the way, you don’t need fancy parts to upgrade your speakers. Drugs are much more effective.
Apparently neither you or Andrew understand what Danny does. His business model is not selling upgrade parts but speaker kits and diy. The speakers people send in are not working for them. He is replying to comments same as Andrew would respond to him not knowing anything about building a speaker but all about endorsements.
Andrew is 100% correct. Danny finds a problem with EVERY speaker. But I get. Danny is selling a tinker product. I’m sure the guys that like the hobby of speaker design really enjoy Danny’s products. I like Danny’s products. For me, I’m no longer in that hobby but i find the process interesting.
I would like to point out one of Danny's recent videos where he points out that the speaker is flawed and there is no reason to spend any money upgrading it, but rather buy a different speaker. Other reviews have stated the crossover design is fine, and offers an upgrade with better quality parts but the with the same crossover design. Both of these show me that Danny has integrity.
What kind of speakers are those behind him? I've never seen those before. The top woofer looks strange with the off center (dust cap?) And those look like peizo tweeters...
@@dusantomic9983 -- Erin has much better test gear than Danny and produces excellent, useful content. It's the SA who made the drinking confession, not Erin.
The ultimate test of audio components is how they sound, not how they measure. I've been working on restoring/repairing audio gear for more years than I care to admit. I never heard of GR research until a couple of days ago so I watched a few videos and my reaction is: "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain." A component needs to perform well enough to do it's job in the circuit. If a $5 component can do that, paying 100 bucks for a "better quality" part does nothing. It would be like using 10 gauge for the point to point wiring in an amplifier. Is it better than 22 ga? Well, I can test the wire and clearly demonstrate that 10ga is FAR superior in every electrical way. The question is, does it matter? Of course, the answer is NO for this application. Same is true for any component. The application matters; what you can demonstrate on an oscilloscope and what you can HEAR listening to music are dramatically different. And it's about listening to music...isn't it?
@@scientificaudiophile -- That product is as silly as audiophool gadgetry gets. He says they're superior to the usual 5-way binding posts because of the minimized pure copper mass used in their design -- then out of the very same Internet "mouth" he recommends pricey speaker speaker cable because they have so much more pure copper mass than ordinary 14 ore 16 AWG stuff.
@@stevezeidman7224 for $50 you get 2 pair of binding posts and 2 pair of connectors. Compared to many audio dealers where the connectors alone are $50 or more and their binding posts are even more expensive.
People modify their cars, why not speakers. I have watched both men's videos and If I was seeking advice about audio, I would go with GR Research. There is always room for improvement in any product. Also, selecting speakers is really difficult unless a dealer is willing to ship you several pairs from different manufacturer's and let you try them out in your listening environment. You might select a pair, but find out later that something is a little off, so why not try a modification.
GR research and Paul McClowns channels are pure marketing BS. I'm sure they must get some of their own staff to write some of the comments😂. I had to stop watching them a few years ago, just too painful to watch.
I'm rather grateful to be one of the viewers who enjoys both content creators for their unique perspectives... they both have frustrated me but both have provided a lot of value to me as well. Seems silly to get tribal about this.
Danny's video on the Behringer mod should silence most critics. I say most because some suffer from Danny Derangement Syndrome and refuse to believe anything Danny puts out, even if they see and hear it with their own lyin' eyes and ears.
IIRC that "Berhringer mod" isn't really a mod at all -- he just substituted fancier parts with the same nominal values without altering the crossover circuit at all in attempt to prove that wholesale parts swapping can improve a speaker with *zero* design alterations. When you substitute cored inductors with air coils and electrolytics with film caps, that can very subtly change the sound of a speaker because some of the component characteristics have changed and affected the LCR math of the circuit. This is a change, but whether that change amounts to an improvement that's worth the parts cost and DIY time is entirely subjective -- but it's a heavy-handed change with zero engineering input and to my *very* experienced -- over 50 years -- ear is isn't even remotely worthy of serious consideration. More about *substantively* improving those passive Behringers follows, from a comment I made under that recent New Record Day video about Danny: _____ That's because whatever -- very little, IMO -- difference there might (or might not) be isn't audible enough to classify it as a worthwhile improvement. If you present that sort of impression under one of Danny's videos, he will either delete your comment or tell you that your listening gear and/or your critical listening skills are inadequate. FWIW, I use four Behringer "Truth" passive monitors -- the smaller model with 6.75" woofers -- as the ambience/surround speakers of my 7.1 near field system, and I accomplished *much* more of an audible improvement by putting a $140 (I actually paid less than that on sale) DSP unit in their signal chains, with *zero* DIY effort other than programming the DSP. YMMV, of course. Peace, y'all! 😎
I'll bet, that many like me, don't have the cash for any type of a set of new quality speakers even at a low price point. I'll also bet that many of those people who have purchased Danny's upgrades like me, have done a bit of research and purchased a used older pair and by installing one of Danny's upgrades ended up with much better speakers then those new costing much much more.
This whole subject has piqued my interest in knowing what i may get upgrading from my $1800.00 1998 Paradigm Studio 100's (which i still love the sound of) to my possible end game floor standing speakers when i retire... that said i have been in the electronics repair field since 1989 (35 years) first 1/2 half repairing low- and mid -end consumer electronics (VCR's, TV's and some home audio) 1/2 half repair and testing industrial electronics from manufacturing process controllers to now military grade electronics... i have seen a difference in the quality of certain parts just in the electronic circuits, esp. with military stuff i work on now... but i like watching all these different RUclips audio channels, and will be curious as to the internal cross-over parts before i flop down 5k or more on my next home audio speakers 😀
I love the long audioholics videos, especially when guest(s) can 'geek out'. Whatever the subject, even if i don't care for it all that much on itself, I always learn something and gain insights. All I learnt form Danny is that he's probably fairly miserable and wants you to be unhappy too, especially about your stock speakers.
Robinson's partner reapeatedly mocked Danny by name concerning modifying speakers - his blog went to sh1te when he got her involved - does Steve Guttenberg drag the missus in for a review?
@@megamond -- Guttenberg is a pleasant, cordial guy, but his U-Toob content is totally useless. I figured a guy with his experience in audio showroom sales and writing reviews for a print magazine would be good source of advice -- but the one time I took what he said to heart was all I needed to ignore him forever. I bought a couple of -- fortunately very low-priced -- Dayton Audio products on his say-so and all but one mediocre little 2.1 chip amp that we now use for TV sound wound up being donated to a local thrift shop.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
I think they are both right, and this is all silly. As a consumer when shopping for a speaker, I'm going to evaluate on its performance and not really care about how it got there, assuming I have a chance to evaluate it. But once I own the speaker for a while and I want to upgrade, selling the speaker and going through the entire evaluation process and buying a new speaker used to be the only option. Now Danny offers an alternative, which is doing an upgrade to an existing speaker, and there's nothing wrong with that. I think Andrew is missing that the time for Danny's upgrade is when you get upgrade-itis, not when choosing a speaker to buy.
You're correct, it is silly. Personally, I agree with Andrew. If my speaker isn't exactly what I had hoped (after living with it for a while), I'll move on and look for something else. Have done that countless times over decades, which a lot of people will say is silly, and I won't argue that. I also understand that other people like the idea of upgrading what they have to hear what their speaker may be capable of. And maybe they like building crossovers, etc. They are both different avenues to get to the same place- a more enjoyable experience. Each to their own.
Andrew Robinson was P/ off because a listener asked him to explain what parts are inside the speakers.
So all the shoe salesmen stick together.
@@bruceprouse5562 andrew would pick which crossover he preferred based on looks, and maybe a brand new if its stamped on the pcb.
Spot on, why should we trust somebody who is in bed with the industry.
Andrew calls out GR Research by name in one of his videos so it's reasonable for Danny to believe that Andrew is pointing at GR Research as one of the small companies that has their business model as being speaker upgrades, yet correcting Andrew that in this case GR Research only does 10% of their business in speaker upgrades. So your aha gotcha moment is flawed.
Additionally I take exception with your critique of Danny's video being too long and meandering. I thoroughly enjoy Danny's videos, he approached this one as a learning experience and was very gracious in inviting Andrew down to GR Research for a listening session. A real class act IMO. And an interesting video too. I am sorry that you found it boring and have a short attention span.
While you do acknowledge parts matter in terms of reliability and consistency, it appears to me that you have an axe to grind with Danny. If your make the argument that iron core coils are ok for high end speakers crossovers for mid range and treble drivers for example, then I conclude that you don't know much. Also you repeated several of you statements multiple times so you aren't the the paradigm of brevity yourself.
Not really very impressed with your video.
The difference between the two, is one has been designing, testing and building high quality products for most of his adult life, and one is a RUclipsr who listens to products.
Yes , the first one use his eyes to listen while Andrew listens with his ears , big difference
You’re right
@@alexdenton6586 Danny doesn’t just care about measurements, but clarity, texture, soundstage, depth, width, and separation of instruments. He’s often said that good measurements don’t necessarily mean a great speaker. I’ve spoken to him several times and he’s actually talked me out of an upgrade. I appreciate his honesty.
And gets paid by the product makers for giving them good reviews.
Don't liike Robinson and mystery lady at all. Just a bunch of rambling to sell shit. Danny sells $400 power cables. That alone loses all potential credibility. They both suck.
Not that I give a S but I will add that Robinson has been in the "industry" since the 80's. He has owned some serious hi end or expensive products. He does have credibility with listening to thousands of different components from the ultra high end to chi-fi. He did magazine/internet reviews for years. He's worked for a few big name audio manufacturers in their development departments.
I have no dog is this fight but wanted to mention that I don't believe that many people actually know Andrew's background. It goes back many years before his RUclips channel ever existed.
It's not about BUYING speakers and then upgrading them. It's about upgrading speakers that you already own, which are sitting in a closet somewhere because you don't like the way they sound.
True
Only true if " the upgrade " changes the sound of speaker significantly , and more importantly , exactly to your liking . You have no way of knowing that before you spend a lot of cash .
" Upgrades " that cost more than the original boxes are a fool`s errand. Sell the speakers you don`t like ( the ones " sitting in a closet somewhere " ) !
Then spend that , and upgrade money , on speakers that you DO like .
At least that way you KNOW what you will be getting , and not be disappointed .
When i watch people that actually make music it very interesting as i realise most of them arent even interested in any of this bs and just use cheap monitors or headphones. Makes me wonder why i even bother in the end why not just buy the speaker the song was created on or get something similair.
@@hardystein114 KEF R3 Meta. Ruler flat response and excellent of axis performance just proves that parts in the crossover do not matter if the designer isnt thick.
@@hardystein114 it's also about the fun of working on the speakers. Learning about the technical details and science behind audio.
Thank you for this video. I only want to know this: will the Elac Debut 2.0 with GR´s upgrade sound better than the Elac Carina Bookshelf? In that case I think Danny is right and it´s a good investment to upgrade the Elac Debut for a better sound. I think many massproduction speakers have problems with the frequencyresponse (speakers out-of-fase), the harmonic distortion, and have no transparancy, because of the cheapy cheese components used in the crossover.
I build speakers myself, first with cheap components to test, so I don't have to spend much money. When I build the final result I use better quality components because you will hear the difference in detail and clarity in the sound. At this point I agree with Danny.
I'd trust Andrew Jones over Danny any day.
Andrew was 100% talking about Danny. He’s the only one with enough viewership to target. Danny is right about the speaker companies hitting a price point. I have one. I know
This just shows how extremely pretentious Dany is, thinking the world revolves around him and that people are automatically talking about him. It didn’t even cross his mind that it might not be about him.
Secondly, he said it himself-this only represents 10% of his activity. So obviously, it wasn’t directed at him.
What a narcissist
@@alexdenton6586 If the shoe fits, one is pretentious narcissist to wear it, I suppose?
I agree. Totally obvious to anyone who knows Danny's channel. The Asian guy also went after Danny. Danny is an interrupter in the audio community's gravy train. Of course, anyone profiting on lies is going to hate someone who tells the Truth.
Don't people voluntarily send Danny speakers to measure and mod if neccessary in which case Danny is just providing a means to improve an existing product and it's upto the buyer if they want to go down that track ? The only issue I see is how can he guranatee the next pair of same speakers will benefit from a general purpose mod in the same way ?
Well, if the cabinet and drivers are undamaged then they can expect the same improvements, why can there be an issue ?
@@azar3006 The toleranes of the drivers could be an issue and may not properly match the original mod ;)
@@BuzzardSalveThen it really has to be a set of bad speakers, manufacturers won't voice every speaker set they build, they might measure drivers to pair them if it's real high-end but that's about it.
Parts do matter. Whole this thing is that the manufacturers need to scale prioces for speakers from, cheap to expensive. Focal is greate example. Most expensive model of bookshelf speaker is about 20K which is price of small hybrid car. It does not have value of course. They could make it/sell it for 4K easely. But for 4K they do have model made up from cheap parts. This is result of pseudo science called marketing. If you do not have money, buy diy or arendal or upgrade. You wil get for up to 5K what other get for 20 or more. Or even if you have money.
And a final note: most of GR Research sales are for speakers they design and sale- either completely built and finished, or as DIY packages. Danny also is paid by speaker manufacturers to review and tweak speakers before the manufacturer releases them to the public. Just a FYI
I think he made that point in the video.
@@SnapperX3 unfortunately so are there so much people that doesn’t see thru the hole video or are reading the comments instead of listening to all the talk. Check YT data for this video on your account.
Andrew is nothing more than a unqualified idiot
GR Research is informing, educating, and providing people with sustainable options for better sound. Sounds Brilliant to me!
Better than manipulative advertising and clickbait.
I agree.
Well, when his videos' titles are all mocking other people's products, he IS manipulating his viewers. You hate passive manipulative ads, but you welcome active manipulative videos. How ironic it is.
To me, it's no problem to inform, educate, and provide stuff he thinks is good. But his attitude is really toxic.
@@citytianyu products that pretend to be something they are not, is called manipulating the consumer. They provide real data to back up their claims.
The way he shows how an upgrade can be achieved but using other manufacturers product is not healthy. Instead he should make his own speaker design using sub par components and make a reference video. Then upgraded the parts to better or more superior parts and make a video instead of only plotting graph before and after like what he is doing right now. From that viewers can know the difference right away. No one will be offended in the process. That's the way i would do if i were in his place.
I like your attitude to avoid offending others. ❤ Companies are not human though, or protecting those that sell junk? It would make sense if the goods would have been free like Danny's videos, but I think that paying customers have the right to know what they got with their money. And he also reports when goods are good. It is easy to see how much a difference his fix does from his videos. I like the possibility to improve what I have bought 🎉 as things have been made to price point out of necessity due to profit margins and retail middle men.
If Danny's business model is not about selling upgrade kits (only ~10% of his revenues, he claims), but about selling his own products, then why are 90% of his videos about upgrade kits?...
He said in the past that diy, tech talks etc. were the most requested videos.
Because his business is about selling upgrade kits 😂
@@crazyprayingmantis5596Danny didn’t make a penny off of me but I learned a lot from his videos and upgraded my 30 year old speaker crossovers by myself, what an amazing difference, my newly purchased speakers are back in the box waiting for a future crossover upgrade !
@@Wuppie62 because these are the most popular videos he makes, but he does have videos on most of his own products also, but his lineup is not as extensive as all other speakers he has done upgrades for. Now I am not a super fanboy of GR, but his upgrades are good beyond anything I could afford when I tried one. His own products are even better, so I would rather recomend them instead of and upgrade as they are limited by existing drivers. But he does his best to make them as good as possible. So some upgrades might not be as good as others, but ultimatelly better than the starting point.
@@Wuppie62 because he is teaching for free. If you dont want to learn..DONT WATCH..he charges nothing for his lessons..and takes out time to make them..
I am not sure I've seen very many videos where GR Research found a speaker acceptable via his measurments and that didn't need his upgraded crossovers, no matter which brand they are or their cost.
I bet all the speakers on Andrew’s videos need better cross overs. 😂
Not true- if you watch GR- Research there have been speakers that Danny has said that are good. I have a pair of Yamaha NS1000M’s that I have owned since 1978 and I would be the first person to say that they sound too Bright. I was thinking about sending them to Danny to see what he could do with them and luckily someone else sent their speakers in. Saved me a lot of money trying to ship a speaker that weighs around 70 lbs each. The point is there is a lot of speakers out there that can be upgraded and that doing so would make sense. However- I would not upgrade a pair of Debut 2.0’s 🤔
@@nebtheweb8885 This is the disturbing truth in the industry that many ignore. They skimp on crossoverparts. Its as almost as iff they focus on the cabinets up until 10 000usd, before they finally go full on with the crossover, and another fact is that a well braced cabinett with great crossover is all u need to begin with great sound. All the other details manfactures do to cabinets first, only makes minor adjustments to the sound, and mainly it is how it spreads and resonances from the cabinet. So if you have bad parts, you will hear this lower quality sound distributed as best as possible throughout the room. So this does not make sense to me at all
He measures every speaker. Read it and weep.
So look at Danny's recent review of the Paradigm PF95 Prestige
10K. Danny exposes the extreme poor quality in cabinet, crossover design with very low impedance, poor quality crossover parts, and poor quality drivers. He concludes they aren't worth upgrading or buying. These are $5000 speakers.
5:47 - I see a flaw in your logic here. Andrew IS talking about Danny while simultaneously PROJECTING a FRAME around Danny's position by making it seem like his business is ALL about selling upgrades. Like a crafty politician, Andrew was redirecting 100% of the listener's attention at a small point in an effort to make it seem larger than reality. This is classic redirection. So it makes PERFECT SENSE that Danny would FIRST remove Andrew's projected frame, and THEN rebut Andrew's actual position. I hope that helps make sense of it to you.
II don’t think Danny intended these upgrades to be purchased before or during the purchase of a speaker. It is an improvement after the purchase. He mentioned many, many times that it is better to purchase speakers correctly designed to start with that doesn’t require modification. It’s like having a Honda Civc & modifying it to be a budget racer. You could have bought a Porsche 911 turbo to start with, but that is not what you have. Many have to work with what they have, not what they want. Not everyone can afford a $100,000+ performance vehicle, but may be willing to improve their $30,000 every day driver. So it can be with speakers. I can’t believe this is very profitable. It is very niche.
100% agree. This is the part that Andrew doesn't understand. Andrew only subjectively reviews brand new speakers (shipped to him most likely for free) for a living and is obviously not a DIY tinkerer with his "who cares" attitude. His "buy once" attitude only applies to those who are currently in the market for brand new speakers and those with big budgets. The car analogy is spot on: As with speakers, there are few "perfect" affordable cars on the market that have the right combination of looks, size, performance, etc that you are seeking. With a bit of sensible upgrades, you can drastically improve your enjoyment and performance of almost any car (e.g. ECU tuning, suspension, tires, brakes, new speakers(!), etc).
Have you ever replaced a simple capacitor ? Don’t have to buy a whole kit. I actually bought those elac B6.2. Replaced one cap with an $40 cap. Same value. Took 10 min after I removed xover .. listening A/B for hours. It’s astonishing the level of difference it made. Andrew jones is a brilliant designer but his hands were tied with some of the parts. Still plan on replacing the electrolytic caps on woofer circuit ( that also is designed to feed the tweeter prior to the poly cap they did put in ). No way they could do anything else and they sound decent out of the box. You are correct. You have to know what ur doing. Cheers
One guy sells products and one sells opinions. We all have opinions and we all know what they can be worth. I was a chef and corporate restaurant manager and we used to see reviewers hold onto jobs for years, sometimes decades, who were patently biased and/or ignorant. But if we sold bad food or Danny sells bad products the word gets out pretty quick and the money dries up pretty quickly. For what it's worth I bought two CSS kits rather than GR Research kits because the crossover boards were idiot-proof. I would like to see Danny do a kit for something I own that I haven't already rebuilt and upgraded myself so I could either confirm my support or not. But in the end, one guy is risking a lot more than the other when he hangs his ass out the window.
Ass burn.
I purchased a pair of x-statiks with pre-built cross-overs and I loved them. I then went to purchase the nx-oticas. I do like them a lot, but if you ask me if I would do it again...I would not. I wish there were better instructions, drawings, crossover board. Now having fully upgraded x-statiks and fully upgrades nx-oticas it is my opinion that the X-statik is one of the best buys in all of audio.
DIY vs the "right thing"
about 25 years ago, A guy named Thorston Leosche cloned a set of wilson-watt puppies. These were about $20,000 in 1999. His entire bill (including Peerless HD drivers) was $2,000. Everyone that heard them said they sounded better than the focal drivers. Smoother, and more even response. So this begs 2 questions: 1. What if the right speaker is way beyond your ability to afford it? 2. What if your DIY is better for 1/10th the cost?
Also back in the day: people buy high end stuff (shiny and expensive so they must be great...right?) Just to decide in a few months it's NOT what they wanted? How many young people 1. Can afford 2, Know what they want?
@@MaxPower-zp7wy no. It’s fixing what’s left off at a price point or via poor engineering. It’s fair use for people’s property. If I buy something, it’s mine to do with as I want.
B&W isn’t perfect The diamond tweeters are a joke.. So is making some of them in China and still overcharging.
I stand by what I said. I don't agree with changing someone's else's product patent, design. I certainly aren't going to buy a modified product from a brand when it's no longer standard from the standard set by the Creator. No there is no law stopping you from modding anything after you buy it. But I aren't going to buy a modded speaker when it's been changed from the original design. You don't get the point. That's ok. You have your opinion. I have mine. @@scottlowell493
@MaxPower-zp7wy If you read the rags when reviewers swap tubes or cables, then love the sound, is it valid?
I don't really think any speaker is perfect. Not one. Every speaker from most brands out there are out to do you. They are all made to a price point. You want a perfect speaker you need to build your own. Lol@@scottlowell493
I think the problem of the example is that the guy you mentioned can copy the product by diy, but he cannot sell it, because it has a copyright, and behind that there is someone or a bunch of guys working hard to design it. They need to be paid. Not to mention there are many other factors in the pricing. Of course, the profit may still be a huge number, but using 2000 as its 'true value' is totally unfair.
I bought one of Danny's upgrades for a pair of B&W 606S2 speakers I own. The upgrade sounds really good. Much better over stock and much better than the "spend a little extra" model. It still has that clean, clear, and controlled characteristics that B&W speakers are known for. The upgrade adds body, depth, consistency across frequencies, and a foundation to my music that is really fun and refreshing.
Things to keep in mind. Danny's upgrades are not turnkey solutions. It took a lot of planning, work, and trial and error to stuff all those parts into a relatively small space. I now know why Danny does not off an upgrade service. It's a lot of work. Second, I had to be willing to accept the risk that I could ruin these speakers and be out the cost of the upgrade parts and the speakers. Third, I had to accept the risk that I was not capable of implementing the upgrade. Fourth, depending on the project, this could take a lot of time, patience, and creative engineering to get all the parts to fit in the box. Fifth, if you start with junk you may end with better junk. In my case, B&W makes really good drivers and cabinets. The woofer, for example, is the same part used in the 706S2 speakers which is more than twice the costs of the 606. So, don't expect that you are going to take a piece of trash and turn it into a $10k competitor for speaker of the year. Keep your expectations realistic.
Finally, this is definitely not for everyone. Be sure you want to do this before you start down this road. There is no free lunch when it comes to better sound.
Buy a different brand of speakers
@@mrman7453 I could do that. But that wasn't the question I was answering. What I did not say above is that the 606's were sitting on a shelf collecting dust after they were replaced by a pair of 705 S2 Signature speakers that I got really good deal on. They had a little surface damage and needed one of the tweeters replaced. I put a little TLC into these and they look and sound great! Full retail for these speakers is $4k. I think the price delta between the two speakers qualifies for the "pay a little more" theory. Do the upgraded 606's sound better than the Signatures? No. There are things the Signatures do that the 606's physically cannot compete with due to the physical driver topology. That's physics. However, the upgraded 606's are competitive enough that they are now sitting on my desk and the Signatures are on the shelf collecting dust. The upgraded 606's sound fantastic and are a lot of fun to listen to. I can also tell you that Danny's crossover design, and parts, are more significant than the Signatures. I can also tell you that the differences between the 705 S2 and 705 S2 Signature Crossovers are so minor that one could surmise that the Signature crossover simply corrects issues with the original 705 S2s crossover design.
Bottom line, I had an older pair of speakers sitting around collecting dust. I didn't really need them for anything. I also did not want to sell them. The upgrade, in this case, cost significantly less than both the original speakers or a new set of speakers. And I was looking for a new project. So, I went for it. I could have just thrown money at another manufacturer. I purposely chose not to. Why? Let's imagine I have a $1500 to $2000 budget. Which is more than the speakers and upgrade cost combined. I cannot think of anything I have listened to over the last five years that compete at that "spend a little more" next level than what I ended up with. I am sure there is a whole internet full of audiophiles who will disagree with me or offer their opinions of what they believe are better buys or sound better. But, at the end of the day, there is only one pair of ears I am concerned with pleasing: mine. And my ears are really enjoying my upgraded 606s. Would I run out today and buy another pair of 606's just to upgrade? No. The upgrade process carries a lot of risks. I could just as easily end up with trash as I did with treasure.
@@jamesmorse6486 one hell of fan and a novelist.
@@mrman7453 One hell of a one-liner Einstein.
If I'm going to listen to someone when it comes to actual audio equipment It's going to be a guy like Danny who actually knows what's in a speaker and what it does vs a youtuber who "doesn't care".
i agreed with andrew the day he said it. i'm not knocking diy parts swapping, but this got out of hand.
I don't know much about Andrew but correct me if i am wrong, he is just a reviewer, while Danny is a designer/ engineer. Thats like comparing apples to oranges.
Danny isn’t an engineer, at least not by having a degree. Amir @ ASR is, and has ripped Danny apart a few times for his lack of knowledge.
@@scientificaudiophile You don't need a degree in speaker building. What line of speakers have Amir built and or has accomplished?
there's a distinction to be made between upgrading & restoring. some audio enthusiasts have long-owned or acquire (on the very cheap) some decent (or beloved) speakers from the past that can use attention. Danny's physical examination & analytical testing of performance of these classics can be useful for those who enjoy restoration, repair... maybe even some "upgrading" along the way. if your cost basis on an old set of nice speakers is near zero, buying what you need in small retail quantity isn't such a big deal. most aren't buying lotsa "overpriced" components... just a few. & Danny's shop isn't the only source for parts either. I haven't bought anything from (or via) either of those guys, but I find Danny delivers more data-based info than Andrew. this helps me to evaluate more than just "how it sounds". {imo, how-it-sounds is not easily derived anyway - until one has listened to speakers for a few months in their own listening space, driven by their own system, playing the selections w/ which they have long familiarity. direct comparison w/ one's personal reference speakers is also valuable.}
True
Agreed. When I acquired my then 10 year old Celestions for a pittance, it was necessary but very cost effective to strip and rebuild them - good quality internal wiring, proper binding posts, complete xover rebuilds and some cosmetic work. Now, some 40 years and another four xover refreshes later, my now 50 year old speakers bring me joy every day.
I, for one, have found it possible to buy cheaply but wisely and judiciously overhaul and upgrade, and enjoy a lifetime of quality musical reproduction that would otherwise have been out of my fiscal reach.
Regards.
And remember these are speakers that owners send in because they’re not happy with them even though they bought them expecting to be. And it may well be worth spending as much or slightly more on the upgrade than the cost of the speaker as what you’ll get will be better than buying a speaker of the that combined cost as that other speaker will still contain the same junk crossover parts thus limiting its performance (assuming it measures well to begin with)
There are two kinds of people. The first are those that think the more that something cost the better it must be. The second are those that will ask why pay double when I can get the same results with parts that cost half the money.
Danny is a qualified audio engineer.He shouldnt have even have bothred to indulge in argument with a me too You tuber of little value.
Andrew gets paid to do reviews for manufacturers, Danny doesnt.
And what makes him qualified
Danny sells $400 power cables. lol Talk about a scammer. They both suck and I haven't watched either for years. Erins audio, SA and Audio Science Review is the place to be.
@@richardpowell6096 With a couple mouse clicks I've discovered that Danny is an audio engineer who used to work for Focal designing speakers and crossover networks. Therefore Danny is most certainly an actual expert on the subject. What are Andrew's qualifications???
And yet here you are?...
@@symbadawg5265 Danny also does consulting work with major speaker manufacturers.
I am subscribed to both of these channels and thoroughly enjoy the content of both. I believe that Andrew and Danny both present opinions based on their areas of expertise and appreciate all the information presented. It is our responsibility to take this information and make our own choices. I don't believe there are very many of us that are purchasing audio equipment with the sole intent of turning around and buying an upgrade kit. Many of us have had these for years. Also, in this day and age many retailers offer the option to return products, within a reasonable timeframe, when you are not satisfied with your purchase. Andrew has mentioned this on several occasions and to quote, "The only person that has to like the sound of your system is you!". As for the kits that Danny sells, prices vary widely by the brand of speaker being upgraded. I have browsed the GR Research on several occasions and never come across that much of a disparity. Thank you for that information but it doesn't seem to be the norm.
That being said, thank you for your opinions on this heated topic and I have subscribed and look forward to more of your videos.
Sorry my man but you are wrong in your assessment of what Andrew said in total. Do you know how many speaker companies never show their crossover networks inside of the speakers?”Andrew and Christy were both saying “who wants to see the inside of the speaker? I have the KLH the original KLH Kendall Towers go try to find a picture of the cross of a network inside of that speaker.!? It’s a custom built crossover that helps the speakers achieve a 96 DB sensitivity as well as reach down to 25 Hz. But I can’t find a picture of it nor the insides of that speaker, a cutaway cross-section. My question is to you with speakers needing at least a couple of weeks to break in along with any other equipment return time not to mention the pain in the ass it takes to return speakers may have expired. So how was one to know whether or not they have cheap crossover parts like Danny has discovered on speakers like Sonos Faber and others if there is no discussion about them whether or not they are custom built, crossovers or off the shelf ones!!? so you really missed the point altogether, which makes your entire video kind of pointless. It’s very easy to buy something that looks good clicks are your boxes but if you can’t really look inside of it just like you said I don’t want to spend $2500 on a speaker that has a crossover network that may not hold up for five years or more. so nice try but this video is a fail.
No one asks to see inside of a speaker before they buy ,get real!
I thought Andrew was talking about GR-RESEARCH when I watched the video, and I still think that he was. Who else was he talking about? I'm fans of both channels, and I own a pair of X-Statik speakers from GR-RESEARCH.
Danny is pulling the curtain on the industry and is making people looking to loose nervous. plain and simple
Selling $400 power cables? lol. Erins Audio Corner and Audio Science Review are the real deal.
@@tweedeldee8122 one Asian audio RUclipsr ended up buying those $400 cable from Danny after listening to them both at GR Research and at his home. Go figure. Pls listen for yourself in your home if any of those high priced items are worth it or not.
Greetings ! I joined your channel, several months ago, and truly enjoy your installments. Both guys are right, in one vein or another. BOTH made a valid point, here and there. I DO take exception to you las point however -- you are making an assumption that the Corina's "Parts" squarely (more expensive/better) than the parts of the Debut. Without disassembly/review, the increase in cost cannot be ascertained. Looking forward to your next installment....Rip
Problem with Danny is that his cure is almost as expensive as the disease. But Danny has also shown how the companies are saving money inside the speaker by using cheap and awful parts.
Yes, but he doesn't put a gun to your head to do a mod. Like upgrading a car's or motorcycle's performance, it is up to the consumer.
@mondoenterprises6710 "awful parts" is another sham. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a sand cast resistor, for example, in fact many people prefer them. But I'm going to tell you right now if you think you can hear a difference by going to an "air" coil resistor, I've got a bridge to sell you. He also sells power cables and wires and claims you'll hear a difference with those. Should tell you something. But hey, a fool and his money are easy to part.
@@Audfilei pity those who have never heard difference on cabels, and i suspect your setup failure.
@@Audfile A lot of products are sold because the extreme subjectivity of human hearing is not well known to consumers. They think what the brain tells them is reality ,without understanding that if you want to hear something, the brain will oblige. it doesn't care about the reality of sound because that was not an evolutionary advantage.
@@Audfilepower cables do make a difference I can hear it myself, it's just that once you do the mod the warranty is no more
If you know Danny only by his RUclips videos, you could assume that GR research is mostly about selling crossover upgrades, therefore he felt necessary to clarify.
Robinson couldn't care less what is inside a speaker box or what it does. He said so himself... I don't even see the point of watching the video.
Clearly we all have imperfect hearing and the perfect linear system perfect test sound, still will not sound right to our individual hearing and "TASTE" - therefore the imperfect speaker might be the perfect one for our imperfect hearing or our taste - some like warm, some like cool and some may like what others claim to be perfect.
How our brain processes sound is the most complex of all our senses. We are still evolving in that understanding. Until you understand that you are just guessing at what matters and what doesn't. Every speaker design is a calculated compromise based on the designers belief of the relative importance level and the jury may still be out on some of those choices. The acoustics of your listening space may mean what worked well for someone else may not for you. Trial listen to speakers in your own room that are within your budget and then purchase what you enjoy and return what you don't.
Okay so, the thing is I have to say your wrong and Andrew is wrong as well and I have to say this BUYING THE MORE EXPENSIVE MODEL WON'T GIVE YOU THE LEVEL OF COMPONENTS QUALITY THAT GR RESEARCH IS OFFERING IN THEIR KITS!!! not even close, if U talk about Elac speaker's that cost $300 retail how much is the material cost plus manufacturing? Or if U get the $1000+ models how much of a percentage are the material cost? Maybe less then 25%? U won't find crossover parts that cost around $300 in any speakers below $5000!!! U do get what U pay for, for a company to produce products that are affordable they need to make profit, the transport/packaging to the retailer has to be factored in plus the retailer has to make profit too, no one works for free!!
Making crossovers that sound good with the right speaker units requiers a lot of scientific knowledge, testimg etc. and a lot of brands do it the easy way and earning easy money with a nice or lifestyle looking box or shape speaker.
What
I believe there's a lot truth to that. A friend of mine manufacturers speakers, and the amount of time and effort he puts into designing a new model is incredible. The guy works night and day. That's one of the reasons I'm a little skeptical when it comes to GR's upgrades. I'm not questioning Danny's honesty at all. He truly believes in what he's doing. That said, I have a hard time believing how someone like Danny can spend a day or so coming up with an upgrade kit on products that took so much time and effort to make by the original designer. Just to be clear, I fully admit that I may be missing something in all this. This is how I see it, and I could be wrong.
@@052RC Some speaker manufacturers purposely produce speakers with a frequency response that isn’t flat because some people prefer exaggerated bass or rolled off highs. Adding coloration to produce a “house sound” that certain people enjoy is producing a speaker that is not truly hi-fi because it cannot accurately reproduce the sound as recorded.
Danny’s number one priority is coming as close to ruler flat as he can and some people fault him for it because he may not do listening tests etc.
It makes no sense to praise a manufacturer who takes a great deal of time and effort and still doesn’t produce an accurate product and then bash Danny for quickly correcting it.
So why do people upgrade their cars, or kitchens, or houses, or many other things they buy?
It's perfectly legitimate and more fun to upgrade anything you have bought in the past. Keep it going Danny.
The kits do include No-Rez for the cabinet
Which, according to some reports, starts deteriorating -- essentially rotting away like foam woofer surrounds from from the 1970s -- after a couple of years.
They did I use the one from parts express so far so good. I think Danny has a new supplier for his No Rez.
It's funny that Andrew even mentioned the sound of the speakers as being a criteria. I thought he was focused on the aesthetics of the equipment and how well they compliment the decor in his home.
He has modified his approach. Now aesthetics are still the main focus, but he’s added sound.
If it were allowed to arm audiophiles with swords it would not only be a bloody mess...but bloody fun to watch.
Isn't this so called "hobby" just a "sword" show anyway?
bloody fun is the best fun.
the problem is so many audiophiles have no understanding of how human hearing works, or the basic laws of electricity. such knowledge would prevent a lot of bad decisions about snake oil products.
It's the science that hopefully keeps the speaker designers on their toes. Being a boutique company doesn't mean that building a proper speaker is beyond them. Personally two of my favourite review sites are Erin's Audio Corner and Jay Iyagi.
Andrew didn't say parts don't matter. He said buy right the first time. His point about using a nickel and a paper clip for a cross over wasn't about parts quality it was about design.
@@patfrederick7327 I agree with you about the snake oil. The only answer I can come up with is due diligence on the part of the buyer and a loud vocal crowd of audiophiles speaking out on behalf of science, facts and rational thought.
So look at Danny's recent review of the Paradigm PF95 Prestige
10K. Danny exposes the extreme poor quality in cabinet, crossover design with very low impedance, poor quality crossover parts, and poor quality drivers. He concludes they aren't worth upgrading or buying. This sounds like a huge service to me for someone that may be considering these speakers thinking that $5000 would get them something nice. It's hard to fault that unless you are Paradigm or a store selling these speakers.
Here's the problem with "buy right the first time", especially for people in a budget or moderate price range, like the majority of Robinson's subscribers.
It is virtually impossible for someone buying commercially available speakers at moderate price range to actually "buy right". Even if the engineering is good, crossover parts are almost always compromised, since they are hidden, and are not a viable aspect for the manufacturer to spend money on.
If someone spends a few grand on a pair of good sounding speakers, it is almost a certainty that the crossover can be improved with better parts, better bracing can be added, sound damping material can be added, and make the speaker even better.
So, what happens if they save up more money, and buy a speaker higher up in the same speaker company's line? They may get bigger woofers, larger enclosure, maybe a bit more bracing, but the chances of iron core inductors being replaced by air core, or poly caps being upgraded with copper foil caps, is not very likely. So even if they believe that by saving up more money, will mean they are actually "buying right", is unlikely to be the case.
the one thing I noticed is that after Scientific Audiophile criticized RUclipsrs for not including measurements in their video reviews, now a bunch of them are including ❤
Thanks for noticing!
Danny has a business, and he promotes it.
Crossover parts can make a difference,but just flattening the response on a shitty designed and sounding speaker just gets you a shitty sounding speaker with a flat response.
I did one one of his mods to my LRS + and didn't like it.
For most consumers, Andrew is right.
@@j-rod6420 it's not as simple as saying you did not like the sound of the upgrade. We dont know what u listen for in a speaker?? What I do know is that my upgrades got me more insight and pleasure than expected.
@Rockit66 I'm absolutely sure crossover upgrades in some speakers will make a difference.
I'm a diy guy, but I think for most,try to audition, use reviews as a guide, only and let your ears decide.
I don't want to go into much of the LRS+ mods,but @OCDHIFIGUY is on the ball here.
They need a high pass filter as they will distort at decent volumes,and a sub.
There’s another scenario that makes the upgrade route the way to go. I’m a big DIY guy because you can’t beat the bang for the buck doing it yourself. You mentioned the Elac 6.2’s in the vid. I got a used pair for $150. I watched Danny’s video to understand the tweeks he implemented and purchased the upgrade parts myself mostly thru Partsconnextion in Canada. So with the parts and the speakers I was all in at around $400 total. Then difference in detail, separation and depth was substantial. I was also able to tweek the tone of the speaker more to my liking by using cap’s that gave me what I was looking for based on advice for Partsconnexition. There’s nothing I’ve heard for $400 that comes close. Danny’s channel and your channel are my two favorites for different reasons. When I click on your video I know I’m gonna be entertained and well as informed. Danny has enriched me with knowledge of speaker design that I can’t find anywhere else on RUclips and has enabled me to enrich my listening pleasure on a budget. Keep doing what you do. No one else does it like you.
why not teach people how to build crossovers so they can enjoy the "hobby" fully
instead of selling them
People don't have the gear to measure output or frequency range.
It all boils down to your budget and how you want it to sound. Personally ive played around with several sets of speakers over the years. You can improve any speaker with a few changes and Danny gives you that option. Cant say ive purchased any GR research products but I have messed around with crossovers as well as bracing and sound deadening with very noticeable results. The problem is the gamble you take purchasing. Theres limited options these days to actually demo something before you buy it.
I agree totally with Andrew. Imo the cost of doing these upgrades is not economically worth it. If you aren’t happy with the sound of your speakers sell them and move on. If you go for the upgrades and you still don’t prefer the sound of your speakers you are stuck with them and will not recoup the added upgrades cost if you try to sell them. It’s a no brainer to me.
Agreed. I have more than once seen speakers for sale with these upgrades (GR research) hoping for, and asking, a premium. They eventually sell for what a non-upgraded pair would have, or less...
You can't base your conclusion on the upgrade cost used in this video. The example used is cherry picked to give the worse possible results, yet this isn't informed in the video and comes across as disingenuous to me. And yet he calls out Danny not including the cost in his video. So which is worse, cherry picking data for a skewed result, or not including the price information which is available on the GR Research web site?
@@todd8155 I am not basing my opinion on the upgrade cost used in this video at all. I personally would not go this route and would not buy used speakers where someone has “apparently” upgraded them. But to each their own.
@@allanellis5827 Yeah each gets to make their own choice and I support that. I would buy an otherwise good value used speaker that had a properly executed GR Research speaker upgrade. Especially it the speaker was close in value to the same speaker without the upgrade. For the right price, I would even go back in and complete a botched upgrade assuming that all the high quality upgrade parts were there.
I would not buy the Elacs for $200, then spend $600 on an upgrade as I look for value and am a careful shopper. A GR Research upgrade may or may not be good value based upon each individual case. I would not totally rule them out.
@@todd8155I think most people in the used market would like to pass upgraded products, except the upgrade is tubes or it's the upgrade he/she also happens to like.
If you are in the used market, you already want something cheaper, and the upgrade, most time, makes it more expensive.
What speakers fell apart??
A pair of Advents I had back in the 90’s.
@@scientificaudiophile sorry for asking but why did them fall apart?
The material around the drivers dried out and started falling off.
This is better drama than the presidential debate
I’m running for President. Write in Scientific Audiophile!
We used to have audio shops with educated sales people to teach consumers about audio gear. Now, anyone can be an "Audio reviewer" on RUclips. That's a big part of the issues as I see it. The dumbest ones seem to have the biggest subscriber base.
Parts matter. Crossovers matter as much as driver choices, cabinet construction. Most modern speakers utilize either a 2nd order butterworth or 4th order butterworth crossover.
A 2nd order butterworth speaker adds half a cycle of phase shift. 4th order designs add a full cycle. This means the drivers do not start or stop at the same time. How can this be “accurate”? And that's at the crossover point. A different amount of time delay is added at every frequency as you move away from that crossover point.
You can not fix a 2nd order crossover. Most designers flip the polarity of one driver, which may flatten frequency response but anytime you INVERT polarity on a driver, it's bad for the purity of the waveform.
In other words, when the amplifiers signal is telling the drivers to move OUT, the woofer may move IN as the tweeter moves OUT. Andrew: Who cares"?
Can you hear this? Yes. Just listen to a speaker (or headphone) without that time delay. How much time delay was imposed? Exactly one full period of the crossover frequency. If that was 400Hz, then the time delay between the two drivers is 1/400th second, or 2.5 milliseconds, which is ~32 inches for time of travel, acoustically on a 4th order network.
So when Andrew Robinson says "Who cares"? it's obvious he is lacking in understanding of what a crossover does to the SOUND of the speakers.
Speakers are built to a price point. What parts are cheapened, or where costs are cut varies from speaker to speaker. Most designers just use a computer program to design the crossover. Gets you close, and that's good enough for most designers.
How our brain processes sound is the most complex of all our senses. We are still evolving in that understanding. Until you understand that you are just guessing at what matters and what doesn't. Every speaker design is a calculated compromise based on the designers belief of the relative importance level and the jury may still be out on some of those choices.
I like Andrew . I don’t know who the hell the other guy is and don’t care . I’m disabled and can’t get out to shop and look and touch devices. I’ve bought my home theater just based on his descriptions of products. Same with my music only system . Andrew is the real deal the other guy is trying to to create attention to his channel solely by attacking a bigger channel .
tbf Danny has said on numerous occasions not to buy a speaker for immediate upgrade. Its pretty obvious Andrew was singling out Danny, and Danny imo was right to correct Andrew on his assumption regarding the business.
2 of my least favorite RUclipsrs and one of them is a snake oil salesman.
The "buy once, cry once" methodology just doesn't work... As I get more and more years into this hobby, and hear more speakers, my taste changes. As I become a more refined listener, my taste changes. As I hear more, higher quality speakers, my taste changes. Parts upgrades are a great middle ground between keeping what I have that I no longer enjoy as much, and forking over thousands of dollars for the next level of speaker that I will inevitably outgrow.
Not a hobby!
scientificaudiophile.myspreadshop.com/not+a+hobby+speakers+boy-A661ed7acfd1cee0bacba4a9c?productType=812&sellable=rNRYqqjXEVc9M5ZyOM4N-812-7&appearance=397
People who buy upgrade kits already made the mistake of buying the wrong speaker. So they are looking to fix that. Nobody is buying speakers only to go to Danny for an upgrade (except maybe they get them used cheaply)
Not quite true! speakers that sound great today, may not sound so great few years later for various reasons. (Financial, room shape/size, taste develops/changes, etc.) Also, even if you buy not cheap speaker that sounds good at the time, doesn't mean that you haven't been skimmed by the manufacturer that used a cheap parts or hasn't taken the best advantage of the drivers. It could just be that the designer has not the best skills.
I disagree. Upgrading crossovers is a fun project. Even if just replacing with higher quality parts equal value. There is benefits to be made to almost any speaker under $6000. The parts quality in factory speakers is not good. There is something to be said for knowing you brought the best out of your speakers.
@@JR-ho5qm I am solidly on the record as pro fun. I also think any speaker up grade that doesn't start with improving the drivers is erroneous. But of course, better drivers means a complete redesign.
9:00 - You and Andrew are BOTH are completely wrong on this point. Yes, BULK purchasing makes the MANUFACTURER's COST for the parts lower. But they all MARK IT UP when selling to the END USER to increase the PROFIT MARGIN. And there's the LABOR COST. Buying the parts yourself and doing the labor to upgrade a speaker will ALWAYS be cheaper than the MARK UP a manufacturer adds to their retail price. I can't believe you do not understand this, OR if you DO understand it, you conveniently ignore and omit this fact.
Here’s a thought; as a long time audio fanatic (I hate to call myself and audiophile), and part time DIY speaker and amp builder, I think it’s possible for both of them to be right as far as they go. In my own experience I’ve definitely heard the difference that parts can make in XOs - material types and composition more than simply “quality = more expensive, and gee just happen to sell those” . So yeah, but sorry A&K, but there are some of us who do care, because we’ve experienced it for ourselves.
I very much enjoy both their channels, but have no trouble disagreeing with some positions and opinions expressed by either for example “magic cables and interconnects” .
I’m inclined to think that Andrew’s statement with which Danny takes the major exception could be based on the former’s ignorance of the scope of GR’s “business model”, and perhaps sufficient smug arrogance - of which I’m not the first to note - to not want to research further.
If I’m not mistaken, Andrew has expressed an active disinterest - if not disdain - for the DIY community in general.
I could probably think of more to add, but that’s enough conflagration for now; too bad it’s only 10:00 Saturday morning as I write this, or I’d be off for my happy hour snack of home made Pinot Gris, taco chips and salsa and tunes.
Cheers.
Or both can be wrong. 😁
@@scientificaudiophile Precisely as you said in the later section of your own rambling incoherent drunken ramble 🤭🤭 - just kidding. Both are simultaneously right and wrong about different aspects of the subject.
Now, time for some housecleaning.
Just curious, what makes you think the Elac debut 2.0 b6.2 is not going to sound much better than the Carina after the upgrade? Personally I have not heard the upgraded Debut 2.0 b6.2 but I certainly have heard the Carina and I do not like it at all.
Nothing other than the same reason I wouldn’t buy a Honda Civic and upgrade the engine expecting a better car than the Honda Accord.
@@scientificaudiophile You example is flaw. For a car there are too many things to take into consideration. As for speaker we are mainly talking about sound quality.
@@cpaint69 Yes, like cabinet design, cabinet structure, bass drivers, tweeter drivers, insulation, binding posts. And yes, there is the crossover.
@@scientificaudiophile And what does all these you mentioned boils down to? Trying to achieve a better sound quality. And yes, the crossover is one of the most important part in speaker building. Do you buy a car just basing on how powerful the engine is? Or how fast it can go from 0-100km/h?
I hope you get invited to Texas to listen to Danny's system🙂
There are also folks who purchase used (like me), and yes I consider myself an audio hobbyist, not an audiophile (unless we use Steve Guttenberg's definition). As an audio hobbyist some of the things I enjoy include;
Listening to the systems I have.
The thrill of the hunt for used (and some new) parts for my systems.
Restoring parts of the systems.
Improving my systems by mixing & matching components. (By way of example who would have thought that a pair of Carver Amazing Loud Speaker Platinums would pair and sound great with an NAD 2200 PE amplifier?)
Building speakers.
But back to the point, if you purchase used and pay fractions of retail for the speakers then upgrades can make sense. For example, I purchased a pair of Magnepan .7s for ~$400 and they sound pretty darn good. If I were to add the GR Research kit at $289 I would have a pair of speakers for ~$700 which will sound as good as or better than speakers in the multiples of, if not 10s of thousands of dollars. This assumes Danny's kit performs as advertised, which I have not heard any reviews where his kits made things worse.
So I agree you probably shouldn't buy a new pair of speakers with the intent of upgrading them (there are probably exceptions to this broad statement). However there are reasons to purchase Danny's kits, including the reasons above. and perhaps you just have speakers for decades that you like and find aesthetically pleasing but want to make them better.
An analogy might be the '68 Mustang you bought in the '70s, but all you could afford was a 6 banger with an automatic. Now you have money which you could buy a Tesla Model 3 with. Or for less you can put a 351 Windsor, four speed stick, beef up the suspension, a posi-traction rear end, a new paint job with a tricked out interior in the '68 Mustang. The Tesla will be faster, more comfortable, more reliable, safer and technologically superior in many ways. But you don't get the same feeling or the same head turns and nods of appreciation as you will from the Mustang.
So I believe for some people Andrew is right and for others Danny is right.
Also I think the reason Danny believes Andrew may be referring to GR Research is because most of Danny's RUclips presence is his upgrade videos, irrespective of what percentage of his sales it comprises. I suspect the reason for his video has a lot to do with many of his subscribers messaging him that Andrew was talking about him. If your followers believe someone is talking about you then the perception is there and perception is everything on RUclips.
I want to issue a challenge to the channel: Let's compare a set of brand new speakers and a set of GR Research upgraded speakers, and see if the upgrade is worth it. Let's use the Elac speakers mentioned in the video, the Elac Debut B6.2. Now, if you bought the Elac Debut B6.2, and you want to buy a better set of speakers, you need to sell you current speakers first. The 2nd hand price of a pair of Debut B6.2 is around $250 - $300 (from what I saw on HiFi Shark). So, now let's add the $580 cost of the upgrade, and that means you have to buy a set of speakers in the $830 to $880 price range for the comparison to be fair. So here's the challenge: get a set of 2nd hand Elacs and do the upgrade. Then get a new set of Elacs in the $830 to $880 range, and listen to both, and give your honest opinion. This is the only real thing that will properly advance this debate.
Love the idea. Send everything to me and I’ll do it.
It's already been done...and Danny's mods sound better
@scientificaudiophile , that's a touch difficult on two fronts:
1. I am in South Africa, so shipping, customs, and excise gonna kill my budget,
2. My budget. I can't even afford the Elac Debuts to start with. 😂 Luckily, down here in the tip of Africa, we get stuff on the 2nd hand market as cheap as chips.
@@michaelrovner4165
They sound different not necessarily better.
@@deoncruywagen5191Hey Deon can I send you a box of chips for a pair a 2nd hand speakers? 😊
You’re totally missing the point, people can upgrade speakers and they mostly send Danny their speakers to measure and often improve…And yes sometimes kits he sells includes no-res for cabinet vibrations and he makes statements for extra braces.. Audiophiles are a weird breed and they love to tinker and if they buy speakers they’re happy with in first place but get tired of after a year or a couple of years..Instead of buying new speakers you could go the upgrade route and measurably improve the sound coming from those speakers…Danny isn’t selling snake oil for the most part and yes his business is mostly selling plans and flatpack kits to build your own speakers…
I wouldn’t exactly refer to Andrew Robinson as a Titan, sorry.
But Danny is?
@@westsider1442 If I need to explain that to you, I already lost you.
He's a cuck to his feminist wife.
@@drazenbabich It is good habit to write something without saying anything while trying to appear somehow superior.
@@legalize.brokkoli You mean like you just did?
What do you reckon to the Dolby 361 A Type, do you prefer the plugin or the hardware.
Buying a new product at full retail with the plan to upgrade it is foolish and expensive. But if you already own a speaker with good bones, the upgrade could make it something really special.
True
Sonicaps and No-rez turned my Pedest'ale Tower speakers into heirloom.
@@sloboat55 No-rez improved the Klipsch Forte 2s I had for a time. I got them specifically to try No-rez and new crossover parts (speaker was 25 years old) as I am a skeptic. Both no-rez and the new crossover (same design, all new parts) made obvious differences. If you have a good front end and a good ear, parts make a difference, and it was a fun project.
I don't recall if this was mentioned in the video, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't. But if you watch GR's videos, I don't think I've ever heard him making any claims that someone's speakers aren't good and they need his upgrades. It seems more like his typical upgrade customer bought speakers that they're not happy with for some reason. If the issues aren't too severe, an upgrade may very well be the best choice for some people.
We've all been there at one time or another. We buy a pair of speakers that seemed like the right choice at the time, but once we live with them for a while, we hear flaws. It usually happens when were new and evolving as listeners. I know that I've made some jackass decisions. I remember investing at least 20k in my system trying to make a pair of B&W speakers listenable. In the end, I found out the problem was the binding posts. I plugged my speaker cables into the binding posts on my ProAc's and the problem went away.
I as a viewer, don't usually buy what Andrew recommends is better or Danny's upgrade kits, I watch their to learn and to take the right decision, as they both are exaggerating products for money out of their videos. What I or a viewer should is do to keep learning and if needed upgrade yourself as Danny recommends or buy what Andrew recommends sounds better and costs lower. Its learning and getting wiser from their truth and lies.
"Parts don't matter." Buys expensive cables, speaker wires and aftermarket DACs.
Correct only if have money to spend. It is an expensive hobby.
How long took you to make any point? 😂 can’t make that shit up.
If the speaker sound good ... don't mess with it. As long as the speaker cabinet has no resonance, has no distortion, has limited driver compression ... I don't need to modify the frikkin cross over. BecauseI use measurement & correction software prior the DAC. And when push comes to shove .. your room acoustics probably suck anyway if you speaker does not sound good.
Room + EQ goes a lot further than a new crossover. Agreed.
The thing is, Danny's measurements don't include distortion numbers or frequency response below 200 Hz -- he says down that low it's all about the room, so he doesn't believe in testing at those frequencies, ignoring the fact that many serious music lovers listen in the near field, where mid-bass performance in close proximity to the woofer is a very significant factor in enjoying recorded music. Moreover, his test gear is obsolescent and the response curves he presents are smoothed out -- he sells "No-Rez" but his those curves are *Low* "Rez" -- past the point of usefulness.
I love both Andrew and Danny, and I am a tweaker, so Andrew’s comment did rub me the wrong way! I’ve upgraded many cheap caps on many speakers in my 35yrs as an audiophile. Sometimes the change was better, and a couple times I reverted to the original caps, or different caps. They really DO sound different. But I’ve only done this to old speakers, or ones that I wanted to modify. And that’s what Danny is offering. I don’t see why Andrew paints that in a negative light.
The act of designing speakers BEGINS with cabinet design and driver selection. One cannot simply "fix" those poor decisions downstream with better crossover parts or different crossover design. Andrew is just saying to buy a speaker that fits your use case FROM THE START. This remains excellent advice. Danny has GOT to get thicker skin. This is not a good look for GR Research.
" Buy a speaker that fits your use case FROM THE START "
Indeed .
@@hardystein114 I know, right? Also like performance cars; the answer for 99.999% of buyers is to buy the car that already has the power + performance you need. Rather than buying a car with somewhat less power/performance and trying to tune/bolt-on the delta from the car one SHOULD have bought in the first place.
Have you actually done a crossover for a speaker? Take measurements of the tweeter and mid woofer, and design a crossover based on these measurements with an objective of really integrating the two? Have you looked and analyze the phases of each driver and look where the phases mesh the best?
And then, do you know how electrolytic capacitors are different from propylene foil capacitors, or that air core inductors are better for mid drivers and tweeters (as supposed to laminated core inductors which are suited more for subwoofer due to cost considerations.
The point is when you already own a speaker, and there is a way/option to improve it, it's up to you to do it (and send money). It's no different from chucking away your old speaker (that you are dissatisfied with) and seek to buy a "better" speaker--that's is upgrading too.
@@raynerstuelgalid Yes I have actually done all those things. Your point is moot; the person bought the WRONG speaker. They would be vastly better off getting educated and experienced....and then buying speakers that actually fit his use case. The crossover is NOT a fix-all. It will not cause drivers that are inherently incompatible to somehow...magically be compatible. My original point stands.
@@DBravo29er the statement about fixing the problem downstream is false. A manufacturer can make two identical boxes with the same drivers. Ad great parts in one, and cheap parts in another and sell them at different price points.
Andrew must know what he's talking about. He has a piece of McIntosh gear in the background ! Why did he buy Mac gear if he doesn't care about what's inside ? Can he hear the difference between that and an amp that costs a quarter as much ? He's just trying to make himself look good.
So they're both right and they're both wrong and your the only one that's drunk.
Cheers. 😀🥳😁
You get it! Few do.
He is hustling off Danny and Andrew.
I’ll drink to that!
Danny does not suggest you go buy speaker and plan to upgrade. He offers upgrades for speakers you already own. Danny said it sounds like he is talking about GR research knowing how the less knowledgeable reviewers always incorrectly accuse him.
What's a crossover? Is it when you drink half of the bottle and you continue into finishing the other half? 🤔😂🥃
Naw, that's when you switch to another bottle! 🍾🍾
@robinkleinsteuber5217 good one
It’s when you drink half the bottle and then crossover to the other side of the room to talk to that lady who has gotten more beautiful with every sip. 😂
People don't buy speakers they know they don't like just to upgrade the crossover they know nothing about. Which is how Andrew is framing the conversation.
It's obvious what Andrew was saying and obvious Danny feels slighted by the comment. Imo it makes no sense to try and upgrade a speaker with any companies upgrade kit. If the kit cost maybe 30% of the full speaker price then maybe. Only maybe if I was interested in seeing if I could do the work myself. I definitely wouldn't be paying more than double the speaker price look for sonic panacea. I think GR is just a grifter business. But that's just my opinion.
The cost example in this video was cherry picked to give the worse result possible. Many of the upgrade costs are less than 30% of the speaker cost.
I understand what you are saying about quality control and speakers lasting more than a few years, but I have some entry level bookshelf's form 30 years ago ( Infinity at that, 150.00 for the pair) and they are not falling apart and work perfectly fine to this day. Believe me they have been a little abused over the years with all the moving while I was in the Army. And I would think they have made strides in what they use to put these things together these days that are better quality than 30 plus years ago. yes, you do get what you pay for, but you also have to match what you buy so you don't blow up a crossover or the actual speaker because you have to much power for it. Understand what you are buying and it's limits.
I can’t wait until the SA has 1million subscribers. Then the audio industry will be reformed. By the way, you don’t need fancy parts to upgrade your speakers. Drugs are much more effective.
So is EQ
Correct me if Im wrong but most of Danny’s videos are upgraded speakers.
Apparently neither you or Andrew understand what Danny does. His business model is not selling upgrade parts but speaker kits and diy. The speakers people send in are not working for them. He is replying to comments same as Andrew would respond to him not knowing anything about building a speaker but all about endorsements.
Go easy on SA he's drunk.
I watched 41 minutes of Danny explain exactly what he does. I still don’t have a clue.
@scientificaudiophile well
@@scientificaudiophileDon’t drink and watch RUclips ;)
Why commenting than?
Moral of the whole story - don't buy speakers with crossovers.
Andrew is 100% correct. Danny finds a problem with EVERY speaker. But I get. Danny is selling a tinker product. I’m sure the guys that like the hobby of speaker design really enjoy Danny’s products. I like Danny’s products. For me, I’m no longer in that hobby but i find the process interesting.
I would like to point out one of Danny's recent videos where he points out that the speaker is flawed and there is no reason to spend any money upgrading it, but rather buy a different speaker. Other reviews have stated the crossover design is fine, and offers an upgrade with better quality parts but the with the same crossover design. Both of these show me that Danny has integrity.
What kind of speakers are those behind him? I've never seen those before. The top woofer looks strange with the off center (dust cap?) And those look like peizo tweeters...
AI generated background
2 words, tube connector. Maybe Danny will send a pair of his speakers to Erin to review.
Wouldn't help.. Erin admits he's drunk most of the time so he won't hear any difference. :)
@@dusantomic9983really
@@dusantomic9983 -- Erin has much better test gear than Danny and produces excellent, useful content. It's the SA who made the drinking confession, not Erin.
The ultimate test of audio components is how they sound, not how they measure. I've been working on restoring/repairing audio gear for more years than I care to admit. I never heard of GR research until a couple of days ago so I watched a few videos and my reaction is: "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."
A component needs to perform well enough to do it's job in the circuit. If a $5 component can do that, paying 100 bucks for a "better quality" part does nothing. It would be like using 10 gauge for the point to point wiring in an amplifier. Is it better than 22 ga? Well, I can test the wire and clearly demonstrate that 10ga is FAR superior in every electrical way. The question is, does it matter? Of course, the answer is NO for this application. Same is true for any component. The application matters; what you can demonstrate on an oscilloscope and what you can HEAR listening to music are dramatically different. And it's about listening to music...isn't it?
You’re on the money here. Danny is not my fav dude. A buddy of mine bought his tube binding posts. $50 for a $.50 item. I was really pissed for him.
Nice markup!
@@scientificaudiophile -- That product is as silly as audiophool gadgetry gets. He says they're superior to the usual 5-way binding posts because of the minimized pure copper mass used in their design -- then out of the very same Internet "mouth" he recommends pricey speaker speaker cable because they have so much more pure copper mass than ordinary 14 ore 16 AWG stuff.
@@stevezeidman7224 for $50 you get 2 pair of binding posts and 2 pair of connectors. Compared to many audio dealers where the connectors alone are $50 or more and their binding posts are even more expensive.
People modify their cars, why not speakers. I have watched both men's videos and If I was seeking advice about audio, I would go with GR Research. There is always room for improvement in any product. Also, selecting speakers is really difficult unless a dealer is willing to ship you several pairs from different manufacturer's and let you try them out in your listening environment. You might select a pair, but find out later that something is a little off, so why not try a modification.
GR research and Paul McClowns channels are pure marketing BS.
I'm sure they must get some of their own staff to write some of the comments😂.
I had to stop watching them a few years ago, just too painful to watch.
I'm rather grateful to be one of the viewers who enjoys both content creators for their unique perspectives... they both have frustrated me but both have provided a lot of value to me as well. Seems silly to get tribal about this.
Danny's video on the Behringer mod should silence most critics. I say most because some suffer from Danny Derangement Syndrome and refuse to believe anything Danny puts out, even if they see and hear it with their own lyin' eyes and ears.
IIRC that "Berhringer mod" isn't really a mod at all -- he just substituted fancier parts with the same nominal values without altering the crossover circuit at all in attempt to prove that wholesale parts swapping can improve a speaker with *zero* design alterations. When you substitute cored inductors with air coils and electrolytics with film caps, that can very subtly change the sound of a speaker because some of the component characteristics have changed and affected the LCR math of the circuit. This is a change, but whether that change amounts to an improvement that's worth the parts cost and DIY time is entirely subjective -- but it's a heavy-handed change with zero engineering input and to my *very* experienced -- over 50 years -- ear is isn't even remotely worthy of serious consideration. More about *substantively* improving those passive Behringers follows, from a comment I made under that recent New Record Day video about Danny:
_____
That's because whatever -- very little, IMO -- difference there might (or might not) be isn't audible enough to classify it as a worthwhile improvement. If you present that sort of impression under one of Danny's videos, he will either delete your comment or tell you that your listening gear and/or your critical listening skills are inadequate.
FWIW, I use four Behringer "Truth" passive monitors -- the smaller model with 6.75" woofers -- as the ambience/surround speakers of my 7.1 near field system, and I accomplished *much* more of an audible improvement by putting a $140 (I actually paid less than that on sale) DSP unit in their signal chains, with *zero* DIY effort other than programming the DSP. YMMV, of course.
Peace, y'all! 😎
I'll bet, that many like me, don't have the cash for any type of a set of new quality speakers even at a low price point. I'll also bet that many of those people who have purchased Danny's upgrades like me, have done a bit of research and purchased a used older pair and by installing one of Danny's upgrades ended up with much better speakers then those new costing much much more.
I passed out 4 times 😅 😅 sounds about right.
The next time I do a long tech talk style video I'll drop your names a few times here and there to keep your attention. ;-)
gene lol
This whole subject has piqued my interest in knowing what i may get upgrading from my $1800.00 1998 Paradigm Studio 100's (which i still love the sound of) to my possible end game floor standing speakers when i retire... that said i have been in the electronics repair field since 1989 (35 years) first 1/2 half repairing low- and mid -end consumer electronics (VCR's, TV's and some home audio) 1/2 half repair and testing industrial electronics from manufacturing process controllers to now military grade electronics... i have seen a difference in the quality of certain parts just in the electronic circuits, esp. with military stuff i work on now... but i like watching all these different RUclips audio channels, and will be curious as to the internal cross-over parts before i flop down 5k or more on my next home audio speakers 😀
I love the long audioholics videos, especially when guest(s) can 'geek out'. Whatever the subject, even if i don't care for it all that much on itself, I always learn something and gain insights.
All I learnt form Danny is that he's probably fairly miserable and wants you to be unhappy too, especially about your stock speakers.
Andrew says every speaker is a must buy. He advertises speakers, not reviews speakers.
Oh no! Drama in the audiophile continuum. 😮
Robinson's partner reapeatedly mocked Danny by name concerning modifying speakers - his blog went to sh1te when he got her involved - does Steve Guttenberg drag the missus in for a review?
@@megamond -- Guttenberg is a pleasant, cordial guy, but his U-Toob content is totally useless. I figured a guy with his experience in audio showroom sales and writing reviews for a print magazine would be good source of advice -- but the one time I took what he said to heart was all I needed to ignore him forever. I bought a couple of -- fortunately very low-priced -- Dayton Audio products on his say-so and all but one mediocre little 2.1 chip amp that we now use for TV sound wound up being donated to a local thrift shop.
I bought the Emotiva B1+ for $240. the upgrade costs $275. Total $515 I would have just spent $550 and gotten better speakers from the get-go.