Hey Dave, Nice to meet you (via RUclips) and thanks for watching. I liked your video and feedback. Let me just clarify a few things. Regarding sending our product our for review. We have had our product reviewed by every magazine out there online and in print, and we've won awards from all of them. So I have never had any issue with sending out our products. I also have no issue with a reviewer selling gear after a review of they disclose that they have made arrangements to keep the gear in exchange for the review. Some are doing that and some are not disclosing that. My recommendation to them is that doing that will hurt their credibility. If they are being paid for the review they are seen more as a paid advertiser than a reviewer. I am also not buying reviews. Doing that doesn't look good for the manufacturer either. The invitation to come was not to review our gear in our place only. We even said they could bring their own gear. It is just to come, listen, and learn. No reviews are required or asked for. My contention isn't that just our gear should be reviewed with quality gear and a dedicated or optimized room. My contention is the same for ALL gear being reviewed. Sure everyone is blown away from our system, but one of the things they leave with (every time) is a desire and motivation to step up their room, their speaker placement, and gear. I want to make their systems better whether they use our gear or not. And when you do pass through my way, let me know. You'd be welcome to visit.
Nicely said. Kudos to you for offering a reasoned and non-defensive response. I see both sides. I can see where people might have been put off by some of the things you said as “elitist”, but if they really watched the video, I think it’s pretty clear that you were sincere in your desire to further the cause of hi-FI, not just promote your business. It’s a brave new world and I think there’s a lot of risk that, as these RUclips reviewers replace the print medium, unless there is a concerted effort to disclose the business relationship between manufacturer and reviewer, great harm could be done to hifi enthusiasts, audiophiles, and the audio community writ large.
It has been years since I last visited Texas, but if I ever get the opportunity I'd like to see and hear what you did to achieve the best possible listening experience, that is a science, and also an art in its own right.
Thanks for your response, Danny. I really wasn’t expecting you to comment, but I appreciate that you did. I didn’t realize just how controversial a figure you are until now! You have brilliantly found your niche in the cutthroat world of home audio, and your competitive nature keeps the fires burning hot. But I think as Ron predicted and tried to temper, your strongly stated opinions would elicit some interesting reactions. I watched it a couple of times (it’s long, man), I left a brief comment, then my brain started going…and I made a video. As I said in the video, the whole product reviewer/reviewee relationship has been sketchy since forever. I don’t see a solution…Should there be reviewing laws in place? Reviewing hifi gear can be fun, but coming up with original combinations of adjectives to describe sound is the hardest part. You are clever by avoiding all that nonsense and sticking to graphs and measurements. As Oscar Wilde famously said, “There is only one thing in life worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about.” Cheers
Dave, you displayed an awareness of yourself in a humble tone that was refreshing. At the same time, you challenged Danny's disconnect between listening in a dedicated, treated room and then listening, (if you are fortunate to have a dedicated room), in your space at home. You did this and then more importantly you ended your video in a show of unity which supports Danny's primary aim . Exceptionally well done, you are a prince of a man.
Hey Dave.!!! First and I always do this with people I enjoy their work. I say thank you!!!! Thanks buddy I really enjoy all of your work. You have a bit of humbleness and humanity, the kind of humanity that I miss. I find you a breath of fresh air and open-mindedness. I subscribe to pretty much almost anyone I can think of as far as audio even languages I don't speak. You can actually tell a lot without even knowing someone's language. Please keep up the great work and thank you I so appreciate it!!! Please take care of your health and your family BigErik
This was a great response to Danny. As much as Ron and Danny tried to convey it wasn't an attack - the arrogance in that room was deafening. Everything you stated was exactly what I was thinking throughout that video.
So, I am not sure what you trying to resolve, you seem to “ beat around the bush”. Why don’t u folks leave GR research be. He is good at what he does and I have learned a lot from the man. Go after the large manufactures
I don't own an Aston or a McClaren and yet I do enjoy listening to reviewers spill the nuances of each new model. Danny has a great business and builds some of the best speakers in the world, I will never tire of his skill as an Engineer and his honesty, that aside what is your actual point?
The most off putting thing about, Danny's content is that all according to him, all speaker designers get it wrong all of the time. They must sure be a dumb bunch!
To Big Blue; Yeah, these other designers must all be certifiable idiots!!!! Man, what poor Danny has to persevere with modding their speakers, I tell ya! Cheesy parts and all. Poor dude! 😉😁
There are a small handful that he determined to be good as they were. Notable is the fact that he only offers the service of examining speakers. The owners of these speakers are the ones sending them in for modification. The owners are not satisfied with the way they are. Danny then does the examination and highlights what could be done better.
@@alferro3149 The guy is a speaker designer. He better know how to do this for a few hundred bucks! In some cases he has determined that it's just not worth the trouble to even try. In those cases he suggests just buying another pair of speakers. And you've got to remember, he is adding hundreds of dollars to a speaker that was designed to meet a price point. A pair of speakers manufactured to meet a $1,000 retail price would have to raise its price substantially if it were to use higher parts quality. Now, as to why these companies choose to sell a speaker with their measurements, that's a whole nother topic.
Hi Dave. I enjoy your channel. I just ready Danny's reply. This exchange is a good example why we need to speak to each other more than we communicate through social media as social medial communication can create much miscommunication. I believe Danny and you will have a great face to face chat when you finally get to meet. Cheers! George
This is one of the better response videos on this topic, well done. Room acoustics are important, but they are one of many factors, and part of the process of evaluating what equipment to buy is understanding your space, it’s strengths and limitations, and what can work in that space. Some gear is more flexible, some gear is very picky about room and placement, and good reviewers point this out. Most of us work around the spaces we have, and yet still tweak their systems because hifi has to live alongside us. If one speaker can improve a system in one particular environment, where the other speaker needs a ton of acoustic treatment and correction to make an improvement in the same system, I would think consumers would like to know that.
I can kind of see both sides of the argument and in reality I think Danny called out the likes of Andrew Robinson for real, only he disguised it as compliment as not to cause a backlash among the butt hurt fan boys. I have seen videos of these top tier (only by RUclips matrix) reviewers that are truly cringe-worthy when it comes to their technical and listening skills. So when I see the likes of Andrew showering a speaker model with praise and then subsequently I see Danny showing how bad they measure and how bad they are made, I tend to believe Danny to be honest. I can understand why he says "you are not ready". As a consequence I am enjoying these kinds of small channels like yours much more. A bit more rough at the edges but still much more honest and not just constantly chasing the latest craze that will blow over in just months, or shamelessly introducing the latest Pro-Ject turntable that was first made by Dual in the early 80's. And maybe you should just buy an upgrade kit from GR research for your KEF speakers. I think it will bring value to your channel and I am looking forward to see your experiences with that.
Who is your favorite reviewer and why? I think mine is Sean. A big part of that is that he puts the product into perspective. If you like bright forward sound you are going to like this piece, if you value a wide and deep sound stage, this is probably not your first choice. Also not pretentious, and low key. Also great product selections. At first, thought cheapaudioman was a joke but have come to respect him. Also great selection of products.
None of my friends who love stereo have any sound treatment other than the furniture in the room. I bet you the majority of the people who are into stereo listen to their hifi the way i do. Good designers and reviewers should design and review with untreated rooms in mind. Love your response to Danny
Never being able to hear my speakers (I paid good money for) sound their very best, because I failed to grasp (The Fact) that the room is the #1 most important element of any sound system. Learn something about room treatments and lead your group of friends to the next level. Just because you all don't get it yet...is no reason to believe you must be right. If you are serious about audio, you never stop looking for ways to improve your audio/home theater experience. My journey has led me to my next upgrade...speaker cables. Yes, they do matter, before you ask. Otherwise you can just go to wallmart and pick out speakers that will go with your décor, and call it a day. Most of us here, are here for very different reasons.
@@lexicon612 This is an entirely different audience. Some of us just want gear that will sound good without all of that fuss and added expense. Not everyone is obsessing over every intricate detail in the music. Perhaps GR Research is saying that their products aren't for everyone either, which I doubt they would ever come right out and say. Not sending their products to "imperfect" reviewers is basically insulting to many of their current and future customers.
@@vannk73 #1 Danny is the kind of guy that will open up a pair of Revel bookshelf speakers ($4000.00 msrp) and expose the fact that Revel spent only 18.00 in crossover parts. He is the ultimate bang for the buck guy. Sells equipment that blows away anything in their respective price categories. He should be your mentor not someone you criticize. Curtains, furniture etc. are all room treatments (no extra monies needed) Arranged properly to minimize reflections is accomplishing room treatment for free. Doesn't have to be obsessive, or costly...you just have to give a shit. Clearly you do. Your here. If (the best) entry level gear is your only goal...why are you really here? No one here buys their audio equipment from wall mart. Much as you would like to believe that.
Andrew Robinson did a review on a speaker and when it came time for Kristi's comment, she said at least CR Research hasn't told us what was wrong with the speaker. My coffee blew all over my screen!
@@spudpud-T67 I couldn't said it better! For almost 40 years as a technician, I have upgraded about hundred pair and I reached the same conclusions as he have about parts quality and flat frequency response. That is not all there is to good sound but this is a good start.
@ I can't understand how all the electrical audio engineers put together just can't shine like Danny. It's like they are building to a price or something stupid.
Nice job Dave... Very eloquently put! I saw Danny's video yesterday and was curious about reactions in the community. Big fan of.your channel and reaching out to let you know how much I've been enjoying the content, especially the videos on vintage gear. I recently acquired a sweet Dual 1229 tt (for free!) which Ive been absolutely loving. I remember you mentioning you lived in NJ. Whereabouts? Keep up the good work Dave.
I love your videos. It seems to me that you give honest personal reviews and that is more important than high production value. And the fact that not all of your content is new and the next great thing. I rarely buy new so I like that. Keep up the good work.
7:29 Danny is right and what he said doesn’t sound absurd at all. Here is why; what’s the point of fine tuning a speaker if your room (wich is the real instrument here) sounds crap? Tell me?.. For good audio what really matters is: The room first 50% Speakers 35% Amp Source
Don’t worry Dave, production quality never really bothered me cos I tend to listen more than watch videos about audio equipment while going about the daily chores. I grew up in the generation where live sports events were covered on the radio. And I do kind of miss those days. The old Telefunken Opus valve radio may be long gone, but some of the commentary styles are ingrained in my old but still appreciative memories of those days.
Good review Dave. About three years ago, based on Danny's sales pitch I bought the X-LS Encore's with all the upgrade options, caps, etc... After building the kit and pairing with my Marantz intergrated amp, I expected full rich lively audio. Instead what I got was a rather average, slightly muffled and choked sounding pair of loudspeakers. Moving the Encores to the side, I built my own open baffle full range speakers with my own modest crossover design. The sound for the open baffle speakers continues to amaze and I've since taken orders for several sets to listeners who, like me have found the experience "live like".
I find it far more effective and fun to use a graphic equalizer to remedy my speaker issues. Not enough at 1500 herz give it a nudge up. To bright at the top bump it down a touch. My speakers don't need a flat response in your lab. I prefer my flavor of distortion over his.
Definitely an interesting take and I agree 100%! It’s honestly a great experience getting to hear different speakers and the differences between them. A lot of people forget there’s passion involved. As far as for reviewers reviewing the speakers in untreated or lightly treated listening spaces, that’s how most people have their rooms and very few actually have a perfect room with zero nulls or reflection issues and imo reviewing a speaker in a more neutral room brings the speakers close to the buyer. And Honestly the “Upgrades” Danny sells, completely changes the sound signature of the speakers taking away what makes each speaker special and it’s like a slap in the face to the designer when you change the sound signature that significantly, No hard feelings towards anyone but I like my speakers to have their differences. Just my two cents, Happy listening and great video! ✅🍿
well said! love your channel, and greetings from Canada...humility goes a long long way on our social media platforms
2 месяца назад+2
I bought my first real Hi Fi about 1972. Klipsch Heresys, a Thorens TT (TD 160) a pioneer SA 5200 Int amp. It didn't take long to realizethat profits were increased by skimping on what you couldn't see. Adding some fiberglass to the otherwise empty box of what were then pretty expensive speakers smoothed the harsh lower mids and boomy bass. I then upped the ante with high grade caps and resistors and air core inductors to even further improvements. Danny is not pulling a fast one. Now 50+ years later better quality parts still sound better.Non resonant stands improve inner detail in my magnepans. Pucks under electronics add to depth etc. I don't know Danny and have never bought anything from him, but it's not snake oil. Real science validates what he says.. Real ears probably do to.
Well done. The biggest problem with Danny is that he is *always* selling a product from his inventory. I like his content, but I have yet to bite. After all, a flat response is no guarantee of good sound. Some speaker manufacturers design for sound, rather than specs. If that was disallowed, there would be no tube gear
Good tube gear has also a flat response. You can not have huge spikes and holes in the response graph and still produce HiFi sound. The signature sound of good products is far more subtle thing.
After watching this video , Im a new follower of your channel ,thank you for the clarity ,honesty and down to earth view of the reviewing art, so now on you have a new fan and follower....
Great video! I think Danny and his strong personality is great! Having GR Reserch help me modify my speakers was the most fun I have had in audio. And the results were well worth the efforts and cost. I look forward to doing it again in the future. There is something about knowing your speakers are better than stock and at there best. I think Danny does have allot of knowledge to share and hope that some RUclips ers take him up on his offer. I think it would make some fantastic content. 👍🏻🔈
Wow the audio community is brutal . I can say this about Danny at GR. I am in no way affiliated with his business but I did one of his speaker upgrades which was pretty fun to say the least. For those that think he’s selling snake oil, you’re wrong. The upgrade was a tremendous difference in sound of my speakers costing was less then the a pair of new ones. If you think it’s bs, try an upgrade form your self and you’ll See. It’s sad on how brutal the audio community could be. I guess it’s all due to justification of spending thousands of dollars on gear pretending it’s better than someone else’s. Danny is the real deal and truly cares about quality sound at an affordable price and not being ripped off by companies using crappy components in there cabinets.
I agree with Danny and think that his remarks was actually an understatement of the industry. Of course he left out some small details. And yes I think that you also made some good points.
Nice job, very well said! Excellent even keeled response to Danny’s video. Honestly, don’t understand why it triggered so many people. Was it the most diplomatically done opinion piece ever? No. Was it meant to denigrate certain people? I don’t think so. Danny seems like a good guy to me. He does make some very good points.
I WAS mean to denigrate some people. In fact shots were fired at very specific people. He didn't say the names, he just made sure that if you've been in this community you know who he was speaking of.
Very well done sir. The most thoughtful answer to this pseudo-controversy IMHO. Good news out of all this: I just discovered your channel so I'm going to check it out. As for Danny's video, let's just say he could use a self-awareness course or two and he'll be just fine!
Very well said! You hit on a lot of points that I was thinking as he was saying them! What good is a high end system in a mediocre room? I for one cannot afford such a room, nor do i have the room! I have however acquired some fantastic vintage gear over the years and have had many people say that it is the best sound they ever heard! I have long thought that Danny, while seemingly a good guy, has always tried to get all of us square pegs to fit into the round holes that he preaches are the only correct ones. I too would love to hear a set of his speakers, but i suspect i would be disappointed, because i don't subscribe to a flat sound. I prefer lively yet warm, so color my speakers audio Gods!!
Just because a product measures flat (accurately) doesn't mean it sounds flat. The measured response shows accuracy and not how it sounds. A speaker can measure flat and sound like it is playing through a wet rag or measure flat and be the most lively sounding speaker you've ever heard.
@@dannyrichie9743 that's true and I wasn't trying to be disrespectful at all and I do appreciate how you point out shortcomings from the high end market using subpar components in their equipment, but i do feel that we all hear differently and we all enjoy different sound, just like taste, no two people like all the same things.. To say that one way is best is merely opinion. I have good friends and we all have nice audio gear and we rarely agree on what sounds best... I am all for accurate sound, i am a proud owner of NS 1000m speakers.. I would love to hear your impressions on them. I nearly sold them a couple years ago because they sounded flat and lifeless. Then I moved them and teied a different amp Sansui BA 5000 and wow! What a difference! They arent going anywhere!! Cheers Danny
I haven't brought any products from Danny but have learnt A LOT from his channel. Dude knows what he is talking about and I am very grateful that he is welling to share his knowledge.
I really enjoy watching Danny's you tube channel, being a Hifi Geek, I just love to see what goes into speakers and Danny seems to know his stuff and really explains things very well. That said, I do often think if its that easy to make a great sounding flat response loudspeaker, why do the big speaker manufacturers keep getting it soo wrong!!! I feel the answer is in pre production live listening tests......just because the speaker has a flat response does not mean it is going to sound great for all music without sounding fatiguing.....I know they listen to their own products before marketing them....and I suspect that's when the final tweaking of crossovers begins. The human ear creates emotion.... its not an oscilloscope.
Sorry, but most manufacturers ( speakers or any consumer products ) don't have permanent engineers on their payroll. Most will use 'consultants' to help in the design phase of a product, followed by cosmetic and publicity management and this where the rubber hit the road. To maximise profit, many compromises are introduced to 'enhance the value' but save on quality. I have worked for a few manufacturers, I know what I'm talking about. The underbelly of the beast is not pretty.
08:14 I don't believe Danny ever said that a direct comparison between his room and the reviewer's room was necessary for every review. He was simply saying that some reviewers on RUclips are placing value on a product without knowing what the possibilities are. He is offering a chance to hear what the possibilities are. Then, the budding reviewer can continue on his channel with a better understanding.
Way to go buddy. That was a spot-on rant. Although I think Danny has fairly high value kits, I’ve really had my doubts about his religion of pursuing perfect empirical measurements.
I think lots of people missed the mark or what (I think) Danny was trying to say... the way I took it was him saying your baseline as a reviewer, even if your setup is in-home casual listening, should be the best and closest to ideal setup as possible. Anything short of that would be like an Algebra teacher grading a test that they only know 70% of the answers to.
You sir can best be described as "a diamond in the rough". That is meant as a 100% compliment to you. I can fully understand what you are saying and you aren't wrong....BUT, I honestly believe that what Danny does is actually a service to all of us. I used to own and operate a small electronics repair shop. When I had to replace parts, I always bought the best my suppliers had to offer. Never radio shack. The difference between cheap components and more spendy quality components is very often like night and day. That applies as well to the crossovers that are in VERY EXPENSIVE speakers. And it is my belief that there is NO EXCUSE for that, none at all. When you lay down 5k,(for example), for a set of speakers, they should have the best of components inside of them, don't you think? And yes, there are HUGE differences in the quality of components such as a lowly resistor or capacitor that make an even larger difference in the end result. I believe that Danny is doing his best to EDUCATE-not denigrate. Are his kits spendy-yes. But overall, you are getting your monies worth ,imho. And here too, Danny is not FORCING anybody into buying his stuff, he just shows you the before, and after results of his expertise, that's it.
@@MichelLinschoten Fanboy here too, Danny is doing a service for all of us, especially when dropping serious coin for speakers. It is nice to know that there is someone with the knowledge of this gear that shares it freely. Parts do matter, be they in your dishwasher, your car or you speakers. Junk in, junk out, and more repairs down the road that would not be needed if a quality part were used in the first place. You learn these things after getting burned a few times.
thoughtful video, dave. have you seen gene dellasala's response from audioholics? i think he handled it well. he's the guy that got into it over danny's claims about cables. it's sort of ridiculous to suggest that someone like gene "isn't ready." i think the two of them should visit each other's setup. gene is a hard science engineering type. his room and testing setup is at least as advanced as danny's. they have very different approaches and i've learned from both channels.
Anyone with any intelligence understands that NO ONE wants to give a product a bad review, mainly because these companies could then make you miserable for affecting their profit. A review is the reviewers opinion and little more. There are people who think the sound quality from your average alexa is "good enough" which leads me to believe the whole thing although not correct is highly subjective. Once you understand the big boys with lots have money are allowed by us to control the information we are allowed to receive, you start to look at these reviews quite differently! Do you honestly believe you would get the truth if it is going to affect the profit of any selfish human being? Personally, I'd give reviewers much more credit if they were to tell you they did not like the way something sounded even if it was only their opinion. My personal opinion, from my perspective, sound quality of decent equipment hasn't got that much better from the decent equipment from the 70's and 80's, it's better but not by much, performance, power consumption and power output have got better for the most part. Like the reviewers, my hearing bandwidth degrades with age, so I take it all with a pinch of salt so to speak. Use your own ears, draw your own conclusions!
Hmm.. one of the 'big' channels also reviewing audio equipment, techmoan, has more than a few "I do not recommend" conclusions on reviewed products, and also quite a few mixed ones, including some big brand products. Of course, his 'reviews' aim at usability, not at the technical details or at objective audio quality, and should be treated as such.
"My personal opinion, from my perspective, sound quality of decent equipment hasn't got that much better from the decent equipment from the 70's and 80's, it's better but not by much, performance, power consumption and power output have got better for the most part." If you know where to look, you can get pretty amazing price/performance now which just wasn't possible in the 1980s unless you were building things yourself and had access to components at industrial/large quantity prices maybe. But something else, much more influential changed. In the 1980s, an at least somewhat decent sound system was a fashionable thing to have, while we'd make do with a single simple speaker for 'video'. Nowadays, most people who have a 'serious' sound system have one primarily built to be used for movies and video, and usually also suitable for music, possibly even good at that.. while the typical 'sound only' solutions are bluetooth speakers, stereo if you are lucky, but often mono, or earbuds, and a phone. Serious sound equipment primarily aimed at music has become a bit of a niche in the consumer world.
Danny has been making speakers and counselling speaker manufacturers for like 40 years and making speakers is very different from reviewing them . Theres a giant gap of knowledge seperating the 2. He makes some people angry because he shows us the crap parts put in our beloved speakers and you don't make a lot of friend's doing that, but the problem is, he's right. Our speakers , even high end ones, are full of crap parts, like 5 cent and 15 cent parts that could have been easily built better and i must say, if the parts we're a bit better i could understand because of the price point and distributor and dealer fees who take 50% each but when you see the price of the actual parts you get a bit angry and there was nothing you could do about it until Danny came along and i don't take these things personnally. He just calls out what he sees. Now if you love your speakers and want to make them better you at least have an option with the kits. He encourages people to further their knowledge by building the kits which is great in my opinion. And I've never seen a customer be unhappy with his upgrades. As for putting his speakers outhere for review, he has. New record day and Jay Iyagi reviewed them and we're both impressed. From reading a lot about the description of the speakers he makes, Danny seems to have a preference for transparency and soundstage above all so its not for everyone as some people prefer punch and slam and exaggerations in the midband or midbass but he made the bullies and brute if that is your cup of tea. Personally im glad he came along. He showed me that most of our speakers are full of crap parts and could be way better. And that goes for other components as well. I have modified my preamp andcstarted building cables because of him. Knowledge is always a good thing in my opinion. Your speakers aren't you so let's not take this too personally.
I don't agree with some of Danny's methods or opinions but I do appreciate him disclosing the fact that many reviewers keep and ultimately sell the equipment that they review . I believe this practice to be entirely unethical and corrupts the reviewing process . I am sorry if many disagree but if the intent is to sell the component for top dollar it would be counter productive to give a negative review if the component was in fact mediocre . That being said , reviewers who sell components that they have reviewed are not to be trusted .
Great content. I scratched my head when I looked up GR Research’s upgrade of the Sony SS-CS5 bookshelf speakers. I purchased the speakers for $88 and the “upgrade” is $345?? Hmmmm. Yup. I must be missing something.
@@Corndog642 clearly that is the point but at the total price paid to make them sound really good you have spent upwards of $500. I’d rather look elsewhere.
@@MrRamperez01 Or, if your you’re happy with your speakers you can do nothing further and just enjoy them. The upgrades are for people that like DIY and want to explore the potential of their speakers. Clearly he’s not aiming at average users with average needs. Some speakers he says aren’t even worth upgrading. You may not think your speakers are worth that kind of investment and that’s fine. He’s not judging you for that.
Biggest problem with RUclips reviewers is the immense financial incentive to maximize consumption of products, not necessarily through advertisements. The conflict of interest is rarely a paid advertisement, it's a contract that exchanges products for exposure. It's not that they're too critical! The opposite in fact is true. We need more skepticism or products in RUclips space not less.
I did see that video with Danny, he did say something to that effect but he did cite an example of what one reviewer did that irked him and it wasn't not having a perfect room but more of not even trying.
Newsflash: the early 1990s are over and gone, gone, gone, and so too are the multiple high-end stereo shops in every urban area across the nation. When I moved here to Memphis, TN. in 1991, there were no less than 3 dedicated high-end dealers in town, plus two smaller specialty shops. Today, not nary a one of these places is still in business. Internet shopping is the only viable option around here unless we make the 3 hour drive to Nashville to visit their ONE high end audio store. As it is, RUclips reviewers such as yourself and the ones you mentioned are VITAL. We simply can’t go to Underground Sound to audition KEFs, then take the 10 minute drive to Modern Music Audio to hear the B&Ws, and finally take the 3 block walk to Opus Audio to try out the Vandersteen’s. I think you get the point. Keep up the good work because, thanks to home theater and other variables, those good ol’ stereo shops of yesteryear are mere nostalgia.
Low production but full of heart. Great video, and I agree most people not just your viewers but also Danny's customers won't have ideal dedicated listening rooms.
You're right. But Danny's got great points. Most rooms environments and placement of speakers are incorrect for evaluation. Worst of all, most all speakers are designed incorrectly. The crossovers (or the lack thereof - just a tiny cap or two) has been exposed over and over again by Danny. That's where Tomlinson Holman comes in. He created a certification program (THX) that would address the concerns Danny has expressed, just for theaters. I've suggested to Danny that he make videos to evaluate listening environments for the home rather than expressing his distain for his critics.
@@mrlondellsgroovymovies maybe I'm just very lucky.. but last time I bought new speakers, a local audio shop insisted on coming over to my place with the speakers I was interested in, install them, help with proper positioning, and give advice about accoustic treatment of the room (basic advice, if I want something more, they can send someone over, but that will come at a cost). They insisted on that with the same argument you and me are making here... Our listening room does not tell you how it will work for you. Sure, I'm not buying 'low end' equipment, but not exceptionally expensive things either (in this particular case, it was a set of KEF R5 speakers)
@@c128stuff I had a similar experience. 30 years ago my mother and I went to listen to martin Logan quest at Rhapsody in Hilversum the Netherlands. I liked the sound but they were outside my budget, they said we have a pair of acoustat x within my means and a date was set, they came, set them up to perfection and it sounded great. Just before leaving they told me if I regretted the buy within a month to call and they would pick them up for a full refund. My mother bought some bookshelf speakers but didn't have stands, they loaned her a pair and when she liked them and inquired about the cost they sold them for a dime on the dollar, because of demo. That is what separates the true enthousiast audiophile shop from those who shove boxes out the door asap. A decade later I visited again, they still knew who I was and what I bought. Great people
@@annebokma4637 "Rhapsody".. I remember them (I went to school in Hilversum). Now when you are in the market for decent electrostats, its not that uncommon to get them installed including some consultancy on placement and room treatment, its a bit uncommon in the approx 1k per speaker segment tho (unless warranted still by your overall spending). The shop I bought those speakers from is run by people who formerly worked at RAF Hilversum and Amsterdam.
@@c128stuff true, if you buy new, those acoustat x were second hand. I never experienced that level of service for second hand ever again. The were 3,5k (included tube power amps) but those were before euro so divide by 2. Still miss those, seen a pair online for 2,5k euro so was a good investment. 😂
As ever, many things can be true at the same time. I think Danny is a very smart, capable speaker designer. I also feel he has these same qualities as a salesman. I watch his videos because I am interested in what is inside these pricey speakers, as I am amazed that a particle board box, $100 worth of drivers and a $30 crossover sells for $4,000. As for myself, as soon as a reviewer tells me that "this power cord will open up your soundstage and increase instrument separation audibly," or "these tube connectors make a real noticable difference," I'm out.
Very interesting. Possibly Danny may have forgot that he was a small operator at one time as well. I do like Danny's channel, educational for me and I appreciate your view Dave, I agree with your statements. I will be spending more time on your channel as well. BTW nothing wrong with you looks, we all look great!
I’ve bought speaker mods from GR and ended up selling the speakers cuz they no longer had the house sound of the manufacturer. So if someone thinks changing the house sound of the speakers they have is what they want I’d say go for it. Otherwise you’re gunna ruin the sound the manufacturer intended for its product. I thought the GR upgrade would simply make the speaker sound better yet keep the house sound. Guess I was a little naive in thinking that. I’m done modding, just gunna buy the house sound I like. Besides flat response just sounds terrible imho.
@@scottlowell493 Ain’t that the truth. I’ve really gone off the reservation in buying an old school 10 band eq and managed to tame a serious bass peak associated with my room. System never sounded better! But don’t tell anyone I’m using an analogue 10 band eq!!😂
Why’d you bother buying the mods? The whole point is to fix the shortcomings of the manufacturer so of course it’s not going to keep the “house” sound. All speakers are built to a certain price point. They have to fall within a certain budget. Most are going to skimp on the crossover or cabinet in order to fall under budget. I’ve owned at least 50 pair of speakers. Some cheap and some not so cheap and highly regarded. Not a single pair sounded good enough in stock form. They all need something.
Here’s my take on Danny’s video. If most reviewers are “not ready” for his improvements and they are just people like me, with imperfect rooms, etc., then I also am not ready for his improvements. Also, I believe that the better makes of speakers are “voiced” by designers. If I am not misled, these designers have chosen the attributes and trade-offs that lead to the response curves, etc. of the speakers, within loads of other constraints. The manufacturer then brings the product to market with that voicing and those trade-offs in place. What is the point of trying to make them all have the same or essentially the same frequency response? And again, am I going to hear it in my lowly room? I think we would all do better to just try to find sound that we *enjoy* in our own rooms, by whatever means necessary, and not let the gatekeepers decide for us.
Except for the 20 to 30 biggest speakers manufacturers, most companies do not have full-time engineers working for them. They use 'consultants' to design a speaker based on technical specifications according to the companies demand. Most of the time, there are no prototypes built and listen to and the 'design' is sent to a panels/glue/driver and packaging factory where they are mass-produced for a few dollars ( mainly China ). I won't talk about the quality control either. Despite that, the wheel goes round because we want our products to be cheap.
The best way to develop an ability to judge audio products is to spend a lifetime around live, unamplified instruments and voices in a variety of acoustic spaces, and then occasionally step into the hi-fi world with un-jaded ears and un-sullied descriptive vocabulary, and compare reproduced sound with your indelible memories of the real thing. Unfortunately, generally speaking, there is an inverse relationship between the number of subscribers to an audio gear channel and the amount of time the reviewer has spent around real, unamplified music. I spent a career teaching bands, orchestras, and choirs in college and high school, directing concerts in spaces large and small, performing myself on various instruments, and teaching private lessons. From my vantage point, most of what the RUclips audio review and marketing world does is silly at best, borderline nefarious at worst. The incredible, eye opening experience most RUclipsrs need won't be found at Danny's or at any stereo shop or in any other reviewer's special room. It will be at the local high school or college music hall or downtown at the civic auditorium listening to real violins, trumpets, cymbals, sopranos. Repeat that experience enough and two things will happen. First, you'll rinse your mind of terms like "soundstage," "slam," "PRAT," "musicality," "bloom," etc. Second, you'll start using language that compares how gear reproduces recorded sound with what the sound actually sounded like.
Thank you for sharing such a thoughtful perspective. It’s so true-nothing quite compares to the experience of hearing real, unamplified instruments and voices in a live setting. That level of exposure can really shape how we perceive and evaluate reproduced sound. Your background in teaching and performing must give you a unique and insightful take on what 'real' sound truly is. It’s a great reminder that our benchmark for audio should always be grounded in the natural, unprocessed experience of live music.
@@MODAC Yes! I don't want a reviewer to tell me speaker A has tighter bass than speaker B. I want him to tell me that A makes an acoustic bass sound more like an acoustic bass. (Electric bass or synth bass is useless.) And I don't want a reviewer to tell me speaker C has a better midrange than speaker D. I want him to tell me speaker C makes a human voice sound more lifelike. Of course that totally rules out many of our musical preferences as tools for gear review; how one famous reviewer thinks he can use EDM to review speakers and amplifiers is beyond me.
As a long time customer and fan of Danny’s, I can say you make some good points. I’ve been an audiophile for over 25 years and I’m still learning! I think the point of Danny’s video is to communicate and find common ground but with the hope of achieving better than average performance. The vast majority want basic competent performance and that’s all they’re going to pay for. And there’s nothing wrong with that. I think being an audiophile is to seek out more performance possibilities. It is out there. There are many companies dedicated to this goal. So the question becomes are you searching for excellence or are you just in it for the average. You’re perfectly free to be either. But if your searching for excellence, then Danny’s point stands that there’s more to learn and more ways of doing things to achieve better performance. And it doesn’t always mean spending thousands more or having a dedicated listening room. One of the simplest things you can do to evaluate a speaker is to pull it away from the walls. You can even compare and comment on different placements. Anyway, good video and commentary.
@@burtonwhiteside1240 Yes. But then I’m more familiar with where he’s coming from and what he’s trying to accomplish. I certainly wasn’t offended by it. All he’s trying to do is help the audio community and that video was geared for audio reviewers.
After listening to Danny recently I was getting the itchy finger to go on his website and buy the crossover kit for Klipsch RP-600M speakers since I have a pair and his sales pitch regarding what a fantastic upgrade this is for the speakers was swaying me greatly. Instead of just going ahead and buying them I went through his youtube series of how to do it, and then a follow-up youtube where he had sent them to someone else for a review. That reviewer played a fair bit of audio comparing the modified speaker to the stock speaker. I set up my best headphones and listened carefully and then I read all the comments. In most cases I could not hear any difference at all between the speakers. In cases where I was able to hear the difference I preferred the sound of the original speaker over the modified version. I read in the comments that many had the same experience I did and preferred the factory Klipsch speaker. That dismissed my urge to spend $250 and a day of my time on the upgrade. I can only imagine the anger and frustration I would have felt if I went through the modification only to prefer the way the original speaker sounds instead. Of course I would have done one at a time in order to do my own comparison. I would not single Danny out as being unique in this type of push and rhetoric. All salesmen who work in their respective industries do this in order to put food on the table. It comes with the territory. Audiophile salesman are often able to get away with a lot more because of the subjective nature of hifi listening and as in the field of medicine, placebo affect is quite real. If a person believes they hear a difference or that one setup sounds better than another when in the area of great diminishing returns, well, they hear it or at least think they do. If spending more money to get certain products makes a customer feel better about their hifi rigs, they will be certain that there is a difference. I have nothing against either of those things, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking or selling the idea that the difference is in the audio science where the difference is really in the brain science. Regarding his charts showing the speaker response before and after the changes he showed what was basically about a 2 db shift in signals leveling things out. 3db is in fact a doubling of power increase or decrease in sound level, but the problem with that is that human hearing perceives sound on the log scale. combined with that the very dynamic nature of how the frequencies are constantly changing in time, and how imperceptible to the human ear that 2 db is going to be, the charts are not meaningful.. The instruments are more sensitive to the difference than our ears, and the chart demonstrates changes in values that are not perceptible to the human ear. In my opinion the best kind of tests would be double blind tests but you'll never find hifi people that will agree to this.
Go to Audio Science Review, he just reviewed the GR upgrade kit to that speaker. I generally don’t endorse ASR, but it is pertinent to your comment. Thanks
@@MODAC Thanks for the reference. I watched the video and I noticed that he was showing pretty much the same data on charts that Danny showed as well as the other reviewer. In addition he showed many more charts with other kinds of measurement differences. Regarding the scales of the differences they are subtle indeed. In the end he finally got to his own listening experience. It seems that he did the graphing first and the listening later which could affirm why he was parroting in experience what the charts do suggest however subtle which to me could be valid and could also be placebo effect. One interesting thing he pointed out was how some of the db peaks even though very small increased the driving power requirement of the modified speakers. I personally use a relatively low power output tube amp for my listening. Of course that db difference is probably not large enough to matter and I'm not a high volume level hifi listener anyway. I feel he did a very thorough review but merely affirmed my conclusions which will always be what I hear, not what other people hear. I realize that how my rig is set up makes the most difference. I get an amazing improvement to the way the speakers sound in my room by moving them from 3 feet out into the room to 6 feet out into the room. Thanks again for pointing me at the review.
@@MODAC One more point of observation I would like to make is that I've never heard a single reviewer ever claim that they could not personally hear the differences that the most subtle charts that they present shows no matter how small or narrow it might be in the frequency range. I think it's all part of the hifi game which includes a hard push in the industry to try and gain credibility in their reviews. If they were to state that they could not hear what amounts to what the charts reflect they might be considered knuckle dragging Neanderthals like the rest of us. In my perspective it's often being the child in the room pointing to the naked king and calling it for what we see and hear.
I haven't watched his video YET, but I did watch The Vinyl Attack talk about this same video. I like most people probably can't afford high end equipment so I do the best I can with what I have or can even begin to afford. I watch a lot of reviews here on YT or read online reviews and try to make educated decisions or guesses on what to buy. Honesty always wins!
Dave, what happened with the 4 or 5 monster vintage amplifiers from the end of the receiver wars you found on a garage that belonged to an old lady neighbor of you?
Sir, I will humbly admit- I thought your video was clickbait and decided to watch it to see something comical to some degree of making a partially true point, but while looking petty or ignorant in some manner or fashion, but I'm proud to say I was wrong. Not only was I completely mistaken, but you actually handled your response to GR Research in the upmost respectable manner and covered every point with delicacy but with pure thoroughness where needed and dead-on fairness in a kind manner. Much respect, and I can honestly say that, in no scenario, would I have handled that any better myself. In fact, this is the kind of video that should always be made when handling responding to a channel with criticism on just the fundamental aspect of true respectfulness in handling a conflict, alone. For that, you've more than earned a subscribe from me and I feel like it should be all of our duty to give credit and support where needed in the community when individuals like yourself do what's right when presenting their content which likely involves a more realistic or down-to-earth representation of the community as a whole, rather than many of the RUclips personalities we look up to/support etc. Well done! I'm a big fan of the Cheapaudioman and his approach to HiFi on RUclips and I'm confident than many of us in his fanbase as well as similar channels that evolved from your average relatable person who's also on their HiFi journey just like the viewer supporting their channel would appreciate as well. I hope to see some more great content and humble points of view from you in the future. Cheers! PS - don't sweat production values so much. Steve Guttenburg, himself, doesn't present his channel in a way that looks like it could be a show you browse over to on Dish Network, yet many people, including myself, hold his thoughts/opinions to a much higher degree of consideration than we do with channels that possess that polished production value :)
Wow, that was one of the nicest comments I have ever received! I am humbled and very pleased that you will be joining me on this journey to audio enlightenment. Best regards, Dave at MOD.
@@MODAC Yes. You implied that Danny only looks at budget speakers. But they are not all budget speakers. So, a person could incorrectly assume by your statement that Danny only looks at budget speakers.
Dave, I've seen your videos and I'm almost certain that Danny wasn't referring to your channel. Most of your reviews are on "classic" gear and the bygone era of gear not availiable to everyone in every state. However, it was cute of you to throw your hat in the ring.
Bringing home gear that sounds radically different than it did in the hi-fi showroom has been a bone of contention to the home audiophile for as long as I can remember and I'm old. You could almost say 'bait & switch', but not really if you took home exactly what you had demonstrated in the showroom b y the salesperson. At least Paul @PS Audio has written a book on how to setup and tune you system for your living space. Even the 'big gun' reviewers on RUclips will readily admit, the choices out there are almost infinite and changing all the time. You'll rarely see anybody say something to the effect of;"You have a 20' x 16' room, this is exactly the stereo system you should have!" I'm glad to have choices, but it also becomes overwhelming unless you're the sort that is always tweaking and upgrading your system. Personally, I find that tedious. Room acoustics can radically change any system....but how far, how much to spend on that and for what gain is always the question. In fact you can say that about hi-fi in general, "How far and how much to spend for what gain?'
I think this may be the first video of yours I have watched. I'll check out a few more. It's nice to have another Floridian audiophile. I'm in SE FL, what part of the state are you in?
I understood Danny's comment about listening rooms as indicating a lack of a consistent methodology when analyzing the product. Without the supporting qualitative evidence from such an approach, a "subjective" opinion is merely arbitrary.
Everyone loves a good fight. I saw Danny's video and other vitriolic reactions to it. I don't consider myself an audiophile, have nothing to sell.and have no dog in this fight. But I am a music lover of both live and recorded sound, at least some it. So what am I doing on these sites? I find them entertaining and a great opportunity to troll everyonr. So despite the emotions you have about what Danny does do you disagree with his measurements or the methodology he uses? Do you disagree that a lot of expensive speakers are made with cheap parts and are therefore insanely overpricrd? Perhaps you'd agree with me. The technology is poor, primitive, doesn't sound like music, What .most people including audiophiles listen to is only worthy of an ipd and ear buds.
yes my friend that is my believe as well .most of us buy speakers and can only see the outside of them i had a pair of Linn speakers that i decided to fix the woofer myself so after looking inside of it it was terrible the cheap crossover they had and crossbracing there was nothing woodvenner.was garbage .this is from a manufacturer who sell very expensive products .so the public doesn't see the inside of a speaker .the unknown truth
None is this stuff is “insanely overpriced” if you actually understand what goes on behind the scenes do to speak. These people have a ton of expenses, besides just the parts in the speakers. It’s far from that simple, and I feel completely unfair to present it as such. This is the equivalent of people coming into a restaurant and comparing the food they got to what they could buy at a supermarket. Yet, like you guys seem to be doing, they conveniently (or ignorantly i.e. they just don’t know/understand) they leave out the restaurant owners other expenses. In an ideal situation a restaurant would keep their food costs to below 20%. That of course never happens though, and it’s usually closer to twice that figure. Labor is similar. And then there’s all the other expenses on top of that. Still think they’re robbing you? I don’t. My point is yes of course you can buy better components yourself, and put it all together yourself. That’s beyond obvious. But are you simply forgetting all about the fact that these people have to pay out money for so much more then that? That they have to pay people to design, test, and build them? That they have to rent, or own a facility to do all this in? That they have to heat that facility? To buy electricity every month, to pay insurance, workers comp, health insurance for employees, match 401K’s, water bill, buy test equipment, pay those employees (do you know how much an EE makes nowadays? It ain’t chicken feed! That’s for sure), etc And then there’s the distributors, and the dealers too. Many times their cut will exceed what the manufacturer takes in. Because there expenses are just as large. And all 3 of them aren’t doing this simply for fun. No all 3 still have to make a living for themselves too. And if they do consumer direct. It’s not really a lot better in the end. Because then you’ve got big advertising budgets, shipping costs, and they have to hire even more employees then too. It goes on and on. The cost of the groceries are only a part of a meals cost. To look at them, and them only is wholly unfair to the companies that build these speakers. Yes you can put together parts in a box yourself, and make a speaker. But are you really qualified to make it sound good? Is all the equipment required to build a speaker readily available to use for free? No you’ll have to buy, or use the tools you’ve already paid for to build them. Your time, your labor, and your skills too. Are you saying they owe their time, labor, and skills to us for free? I’m sorry, but I just don’t understand where this idea of looking at just the parts and judging something’s worth came from. But it’s completely unrealistic, unfair, and dare I say self serving. It reinforces your feelings yes. But it’s simply not realistic, nor is it based in reality. In the real world these guys have to watch every penny they spend on the products they sell. And even then many don’t make it in the end. Very few of these people, outside the large manufacturers (who rely on volume), make a lot of money. In fact some of them can’t even afford their own speakers! And that’s no BS either. I’m sure you’ll call BS, but you’ll be wrong. Sorry guys not buying it for one second. We’re not getting ripped off. We’re choosing to accept reality, and enjoy our lives. And our music. There’s a very real DIY world out there for people who aren’t happy with that. Try it out, and have fun. But either way, just have fun. And please, stop thinking everybody is trying to rob everybody. It gets in the way of you enjoying your life, and your music. And isn’t THAT supposed to be the whole point of this in the end? ✌️
@@amb3cog Yeah, yeah I heard Sean explain it. Every guy who can build a box that doesn't fall apart and cut a round hole in it is a speaker builder. This stuff made and built in China is so damned cheap they can give it away for nothing and still make a profit. The world is drowning in stuff. Me too. I need more audio equipment like I need a third testicle. Oh, have you heard the new super duper ÷=%_€€£₩¥£€=÷? It blows everything else away. Yes it costs $1000000000 but for music it's worth it. When you hear that guy shrieking his guts out and that fuzz box electric guitar overloading that amplifier you know you're hearing the right distortion just like it would deafening you live. That buzzing noise is part of the recording. It's supposed to sound that way.
@@markfischer3626 “They could give it away for nothing” Really? You know that’s not actually true AT ALL! What gave you this idea? Does “nothing” pay the rent? I don’t think so. And this isn’t about Sean. This is about the nonsense I’ve heard from people my whole life. You know what I’m talking about here. The people complaining that we charged them $0.50 for a blue cheese container to go with their wings. Did we get it free? Do I work for free? Does the guy who poured it into the cups work for free? Is this building free? Is our electricity, heat, or hot water free? Do you know the cups coat as much if not more then the blue cheese dressing does? Etc. Etc. Etc. And it’s like this constantly with certain types of people, and locations. Other places, where people get it, like the place I’m at now (I still deliver pizzas a few nights a week for extra money). Are totally different. They’re happy to pay for what they want, and are happy for our effort. They get it. Many of our customers are in business for themselves also, and understand how hard it is. It’s never been easy, but it’s gotten a lot harder then it used to be. When my Dad was running his Auto Body Shop back in the day (mid 70’s until the early 90’s or so IIRC) it wasn’t nearly as bad as it is today. It’s very tough to run a business nowadays, and the costs of what you’re selling are usually way less then you spend on everything else to run the place. So like I said. To look at a pizza and say you could go buy the ingredients for less then half that at the supermarket is technically true. But you’re not going to get that same pizza at home, unless you have a real pizza oven. And actually know what you’re doing. Which takes time and effort. You know those things we all get paid for at our jobs. Which means they equal money at the end of the day. If one doesn’t think the pre-made anything isn’t up to their standards, or isn’t worth the spend. That’s fine. Go ahead and build your own. I may even help you for the fun of it, and to learn. But to say that companies are actually overcharging for their products is disingenuous at best, and downright dishonest at worst. Really it’s just ridiculous to say such things. If one were to give it some real thought. They would realize this. This is proven by the fact that most of these speaker makers aren’t making that much money at the end of the day. Same with most restaurant owners nowadays also. Something I see with my own eyes every week at work. Profits at small businesses are not what they once were. Yes it’s still one of the best risks to take, but that risk has gotten bigger over the years. And IME these people aren’t trying to take advantage of their customers. They’re just trying to make some money, while doing something they’re okay with doing everyday. Or sometimes even doing something they love to do. And I simply don’t think it’s fair at all to act like they’re any different then the rest of us are. We’re all just trying to survive, and hopefully to thrive. And that’s just capitalism at work, not some sort of thievery. ✌️
@@amb3cog If the cost of the parts is such a small factor in the overall price why don't they use better parts? It's because they're cutting corners everywhere they can. Danny proves it with every posting. When he tells you the parts are junk is he lying? The parts don't lie. The measurements don't lie. The reviewers lie. They praise this stuff to the sky. Many of these small manufacturers are garage operations. Among the many thing I've built in my life are manufacturing plants. The computer chip in that 30 dollar gizmo you bought was manufactured in a plant that cost many tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars to build. Economy of scale is just one of countless ways these manufacturers miss opportunities to cut costs. Off standard parts are another. Much expensive wire is just rebranded wire made by someone else and sold at a fraction of the price. It's not my money so I really don't care what you spend yours on.
Production values and looks are I guess somewhere in the equation. Honesty and passion and engagement and knowledge or lack of knowledge in the subject matter is to me where the value and entertainment is at. Thank you for your vids.
I left the video with the feeling that Danny, like experts in any field might feel as young upstarts gain popularity without the same level of experience of ability as themselves, felt cheated. Ask anybody who is getting older about their experience compared to the pretty young things that are getting all the attention around them. One feels slighted and a little bit irked. You wake up one day and the world seems different, the old rules don't apply like they used to, values seem askew and the new generation just doesn't seem to know what they're talking about. Well, sometimes that is true but it is not for anyone to say. Life goes on. I like Danny. I like his character and I think his videos are good. The callout was a mistake. Not so much the theory but the naming. As soon as you start naming it becomes personal. Business is business, it is NOT personal. It doesn't matter if a person has ZERO experience in a field and finds success, that is business. In a sense that could be called good business. Or just savvy. I say there is room for everyone and let the audience decide. As soon as you start to call names you look threatened or insecure. Add age (I'm sorry to harp on age but I think it is relevant here) and you will be summarily dismissed by a very large demographic. It was a misstep. I will still watch his videos. I will still have my favorites (Darko). But in business and life, we like what we like. I bought Buchardt A500s solely on the Darko review. That's power. I bought the Audeze LCD=X watching the Headphone show. These review sites work. They sell products. If some reviewers make a little side=cash selling freebies they don't need I have absolutely no problem with that. Almost everyone I know has some kind of side-hustle. Even people who have money, it's the way things are.
I have watched a couple Gr research videos and my opinion is that a great deal of time was spent on minor things in the cross over that he felt horrible about so he saved us all from less then perfect audio by selling expensive crossover parts that change the location of our money into his bank account.
Danny is right that a lot of speakers have horrible components for the price they are marketed at. I am also sure you can take them up a notch or two by spending the money he asks for his products. Danny is also honest that this often only makes sense if you have already bought such product. (Perhaps because such customer drank Steve's or Andrew's Cool-Aid?) However it is seldom true that it makes sense to buy a flawed speaker + a GR research upgrade to get the best speaker for your money.
I get both sides here. I'm an enthusiast, but I live within the real-world limitations most people face. I have only so much discretionary income--and, to be fair, Danny's products aren't insanely expensive, but they do require a typical person to think about how he's spending his money. That's not a gripe, just a statement of fact. I have a living room / family room designed by a builder I never met, and it's far from ideal. The actual environment in which I would listen to music is imperfect, and there really isn't anything to be done about it. I appreciate reviewers who tell me what things sound like within limits like these, because that's all I have. Will Danny's products sound good enough in my environment to justify spending the money on them? That's a question that deserves an answer. Whether those same products would sound better in an environment I could never have in my home is, in many ways, irrelevant, even if I genuinely do want to know the answer to that question, too. I think that reviewers who take into account the realities within which most enthusiasts actually CAN listen to music do perform an important service. So, thank you, Danny, for being a perfectionist. I can totally relate to that, and I want to learn everything you have to teach. But thank you, Dave, and everyone else like you, for just giving us your opinion on what's out there for people to buy, from your own imperfect listening environments.
Richard. Danny doesn't say it's mandatory for customers to have a fully treated room to enjoy his speakers. What he is saying is that someone who is an enfluencer should have the best possible setup in order to be able to tell the difference between decent, good and great. Saying that they are testing in an imperfect environment because that's how most clients will listen to music is a BS and def a cop-out. No two rooms are alike and wathever issues that reviewer has in their room will not be the same as you have in your room. Also, Danny is really good at giving advice for your specific situation. If you can't take your speakers 4+ feet off the front wall for example he will advise you appropriately..towards his nx-studios for example.
I can understand where Danny is coming from. Once your system is at a level where individual components matter it makes you say "Come and listen to my setup. I will show you what good sound is all about." Not to show off but to simply demo what words could not explain. Many moons ago I built an active system with high quality amps and designed an active 4 way crossover, for each speaker (Dynaudio drivers) and went through all the different upgrades of interconnects, speaker wiring, audiophile grade components throughout the whole system. All the wiring was done using military grade silver plated oxygen free copper in teflon sleeving. From the CD player to the speakers all was constantly changed to improve the sound. You name it i did it. Each little improvement also uncovered flaws in other parts of the system. All the changes and improvements just highlighted how the weakest link in the audio chain has an impact. It took a long time to get to a stage where I could truly relax and just listen to the music from pop to rock to classical. I just played what I was in the mood for and truly go immersed in the sound.
Yup, Danny at GR research has a lot to offer and I too would like to visit and listen....but....when he uses FM frequencies as a test of speaker cable.....or when he refuses to offer product for independant review I am dissappointed.
Dave, I like your style, a Man's Man. And Danny's reply was very gentlemanly. I have no horse in this race, or dog in this fight, I enjoy watching all of you guys. I think I can speak for at least a few, we are adults and can make decisions based on both the reviewers opinions and Danny's know how in regards to speakers and measurements. I can see both sides of this coin, and realize too, that some speaker manufactures don't go by measurements alone. That being said, this was an enjoyable video or rebuttal, it was good, and I subscribed. Thank you sir. ;-)
How are you going to approach the tech aspects of building a better room. Any details? Please no generalities - just plans based on science and materials. Thanks
Keep up the good work , Some people are just haters .Most products wether Hi-fi or not are built to a price.. Some people have a agender in selling their own products .
The listening room is extremely important to the sound of speakers. A reviewer can't make certain conclusions on performance without taking the room into consideration. Giving a pair of speakers to a reviewer who places and reviews them in a bad room can make conclusions that are erroneous. Just providing some pushback.
It’s cool to get varying opinions. No harm for folks like yourself who are critical thinkers. I think Danny missed out by not celebrating the young who get into audio. As Thomas & Stereo says it’s a journey. I’ve enjoyed the journey for decades starting when I was a child with a transistor radio.
Hey Dave,
Nice to meet you (via RUclips) and thanks for watching. I liked your video and feedback.
Let me just clarify a few things. Regarding sending our product our for review. We have had our product reviewed by every magazine out there online and in print, and we've won awards from all of them. So I have never had any issue with sending out our products.
I also have no issue with a reviewer selling gear after a review of they disclose that they have made arrangements to keep the gear in exchange for the review. Some are doing that and some are not disclosing that. My recommendation to them is that doing that will hurt their credibility. If they are being paid for the review they are seen more as a paid advertiser than a reviewer. I am also not buying reviews. Doing that doesn't look good for the manufacturer either.
The invitation to come was not to review our gear in our place only. We even said they could bring their own gear. It is just to come, listen, and learn. No reviews are required or asked for. My contention isn't that just our gear should be reviewed with quality gear and a dedicated or optimized room. My contention is the same for ALL gear being reviewed.
Sure everyone is blown away from our system, but one of the things they leave with (every time) is a desire and motivation to step up their room, their speaker placement, and gear. I want to make their systems better whether they use our gear or not.
And when you do pass through my way, let me know. You'd be welcome to visit.
Nicely said. Kudos to you for offering a reasoned and non-defensive response. I see both sides. I can see where people might have been put off by some of the things you said as “elitist”, but if they really watched the video, I think it’s pretty clear that you were sincere in your desire to further the cause of hi-FI, not just promote your business.
It’s a brave new world and I think there’s a lot of risk that, as these RUclips reviewers replace the print medium, unless there is a concerted effort to disclose the business relationship between manufacturer and reviewer, great harm could be done to hifi enthusiasts, audiophiles, and the audio community writ large.
It has been years since I last visited Texas, but if I ever get the opportunity I'd like to see and hear what you did to achieve the best possible listening experience, that is a science, and also an art in its own right.
Thanks for your response, Danny. I really wasn’t expecting you to comment, but I appreciate that you did. I didn’t realize just how controversial a figure you are until now!
You have brilliantly found your niche in the cutthroat world of home audio, and your competitive nature keeps the fires burning hot. But I think as Ron predicted and tried to temper, your strongly stated opinions would elicit some interesting reactions. I watched it a couple of times (it’s long, man), I left a brief comment, then my brain started going…and I made a video.
As I said in the video, the whole product reviewer/reviewee relationship has been sketchy since forever. I don’t see a solution…Should there be reviewing laws in place?
Reviewing hifi gear can be fun, but coming up with original combinations of adjectives to describe sound is the hardest part. You are clever by avoiding all that nonsense and sticking to graphs and measurements.
As Oscar Wilde famously said, “There is only one thing in life worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about.”
Cheers
@@DG-ie5ip why ? If you're so hell bend on controlling content. Start your own channel
@@DG-ie5ip why should he take down his video?
Dave, you displayed an awareness of yourself in a humble tone that was refreshing. At the same time, you challenged Danny's disconnect between listening in a dedicated, treated room and then listening, (if you are fortunate to have a dedicated room), in your space at home. You did this and then more importantly you ended your video in a show of unity which supports Danny's primary aim . Exceptionally well done, you are a prince of a man.
Hey Dave.!!! First and I always do this with people I enjoy their work. I say thank you!!!! Thanks buddy I really enjoy all of your work. You have a bit of humbleness and humanity, the kind of humanity that I miss. I find you a breath of fresh air and open-mindedness. I subscribe to pretty much almost anyone I can think of as far as audio even languages I don't speak. You can actually tell a lot without even knowing someone's language. Please keep up the great work and thank you I so appreciate it!!! Please take care of your health and your family BigErik
This was a great response to Danny. As much as Ron and Danny tried to convey it wasn't an attack - the arrogance in that room was deafening. Everything you stated was exactly what I was thinking throughout that video.
So, I am not sure what you trying to resolve, you seem to “ beat around the bush”. Why don’t u folks leave GR research be. He is good at what he does and I have learned a lot from the man. Go after the large manufactures
@@tonywa9343lol, gohd. The dude is a used car salesman
I don't own an Aston or a McClaren and yet I do enjoy listening to reviewers spill the nuances of each new model. Danny has a great business and builds some of the best speakers in the world, I will never tire of his skill as an Engineer and his honesty, that aside what is your actual point?
The most off putting thing about, Danny's content is that all according to him, all speaker designers get it wrong all of the time. They must sure be a dumb bunch!
To Big Blue; Yeah, these other designers must all be certifiable idiots!!!! Man, what poor Danny has to persevere with modding their speakers, I tell ya! Cheesy parts and all. Poor dude! 😉😁
@@robinkleinsteuber5217 true!!
There are a small handful that he determined to be good as they were. Notable is the fact that he only offers the service of examining speakers. The owners of these speakers are the ones sending them in for modification. The owners are not satisfied with the way they are. Danny then does the examination and highlights what could be done better.
But he is so clever...he can fix all those mistakes just for a few hundreds dollars 💰💰💰💰💰
@@alferro3149 The guy is a speaker designer. He better know how to do this for a few hundred bucks! In some cases he has determined that it's just not worth the trouble to even try. In those cases he suggests just buying another pair of speakers. And you've got to remember, he is adding hundreds of dollars to a speaker that was designed to meet a price point. A pair of speakers manufactured to meet a $1,000 retail price would have to raise its price substantially if it were to use higher parts quality. Now, as to why these companies choose to sell a speaker with their measurements, that's a whole nother topic.
Hi Dave. I enjoy your channel. I just ready Danny's reply. This exchange is a good example why we need to speak to each other more than we communicate through social media as social medial communication can create much miscommunication. I believe Danny and you will have a great face to face chat when you finally get to meet. Cheers! George
This is one of the better response videos on this topic, well done. Room acoustics are important, but they are one of many factors, and part of the process of evaluating what equipment to buy is understanding your space, it’s strengths and limitations, and what can work in that space. Some gear is more flexible, some gear is very picky about room and placement, and good reviewers point this out. Most of us work around the spaces we have, and yet still tweak their systems because hifi has to live alongside us. If one speaker can improve a system in one particular environment, where the other speaker needs a ton of acoustic treatment and correction to make an improvement in the same system, I would think consumers would like to know that.
I can kind of see both sides of the argument and in reality I think Danny called out the likes of Andrew Robinson for real, only he disguised it as compliment as not to cause a backlash among the butt hurt fan boys. I have seen videos of these top tier (only by RUclips matrix) reviewers that are truly cringe-worthy when it comes to their technical and listening skills. So when I see the likes of Andrew showering a speaker model with praise and then subsequently I see Danny showing how bad they measure and how bad they are made, I tend to believe Danny to be honest. I can understand why he says "you are not ready".
As a consequence I am enjoying these kinds of small channels like yours much more. A bit more rough at the edges but still much more honest and not just constantly chasing the latest craze that will blow over in just months, or shamelessly introducing the latest Pro-Ject turntable that was first made by Dual in the early 80's. And maybe you should just buy an upgrade kit from GR research for your KEF speakers. I think it will bring value to your channel and I am looking forward to see your experiences with that.
I agree 100%. Andrew does not know what good sound is, and he really needs someone to teach him
@@joshua43214 He has his wife now, sharing her insight and everything is peachy...
@@Yiannis2112 Andrew does his flowery speech and then he turns to Kristi... "It sounds like crap". LMAO! I love Kristi!
Who is your favorite reviewer and why? I think mine is Sean. A big part of that is that he puts the product into perspective. If you like bright forward sound you are going to like this piece, if you value a wide and deep sound stage, this is probably not your first choice. Also not pretentious, and low key. Also great product selections. At first, thought cheapaudioman was a joke but have come to respect him. Also great selection of products.
I truly enjoy your down to earth video reviews. You are my favorite audio reviewer.
None of my friends who love stereo have any sound treatment other than the furniture in the room. I bet you the majority of the people who are into stereo listen to their hifi the way i do. Good designers and reviewers should design and review with untreated rooms in mind. Love your response to Danny
Your comment is akin to saying I bought a Ferrari just to use it for grocery shopping.
Never being able to hear my speakers (I paid good money for) sound their very best, because I failed to grasp (The Fact) that the room is the #1 most important element of any sound system. Learn something about room treatments and lead your group of friends to the next level. Just because you all don't get it yet...is no reason to believe you must be right.
If you are serious about audio, you never stop looking for ways to improve your audio/home theater experience. My journey has led me to my next upgrade...speaker cables.
Yes, they do matter, before you ask. Otherwise you can just go to wallmart and pick out speakers that will go with your décor, and call it a day. Most of us here, are here for very different reasons.
@@Bigirondoug Your comment is akin to saying that a souped-up Toyota is the same as a Ferrari.
@@lexicon612 This is an entirely different audience. Some of us just want gear that will sound good without all of that fuss and added expense. Not everyone is obsessing over every intricate detail in the music. Perhaps GR Research is saying that their products aren't for everyone either, which I doubt they would ever come right out and say. Not sending their products to "imperfect" reviewers is basically insulting to many of their current and future customers.
@@vannk73 #1 Danny is the kind of guy that will open up a pair of Revel bookshelf speakers ($4000.00 msrp) and expose the fact that Revel spent only 18.00 in crossover parts. He is the ultimate bang for the buck guy. Sells equipment that blows away anything in their respective price categories. He should be your mentor not someone you criticize. Curtains, furniture etc. are all room treatments (no extra monies needed) Arranged properly to minimize reflections is accomplishing room treatment for free. Doesn't have to be obsessive, or costly...you just have to give a shit. Clearly you do. Your here. If (the best) entry level gear is your only goal...why are you really here?
No one here buys their audio equipment from wall mart. Much as you would like to believe that.
Andrew Robinson did a review on a speaker and when it came time for Kristi's comment, she said at least CR Research hasn't told us what was wrong with the speaker. My coffee blew all over my screen!
Maybe that's why Danny tried to call him out.
@@jman8368 Danny is a God of speakers. I don't know why every speaker maker doesn't have him designing their speakers.
@@spudpud-T67 I couldn't said it better! For almost 40 years as a technician, I have upgraded about hundred pair and I reached the same conclusions as he have about parts quality and flat frequency response. That is not all there is to good sound but this is a good start.
@ I can't understand how all the electrical audio engineers put together just can't shine like Danny. It's like they are building to a price or something stupid.
Nice job Dave... Very eloquently put! I saw Danny's video yesterday and was curious about reactions in the community. Big fan of.your channel and reaching out to let you know how much I've been enjoying the content, especially the videos on vintage gear. I recently acquired a sweet Dual 1229 tt (for free!) which Ive been absolutely loving. I remember you mentioning you lived in NJ. Whereabouts? Keep up the good work Dave.
I love your videos. It seems to me that you give honest personal reviews and that is more important than high production value. And the fact that not all of your content is new and the next great thing. I rarely buy new so I like that. Keep up the good work.
7:29 Danny is right and what he said doesn’t sound absurd at all.
Here is why; what’s the point of fine tuning a speaker if your room (wich is the real instrument here) sounds crap?
Tell me?..
For good audio what really matters is:
The room first 50%
Speakers 35%
Amp
Source
Wrong
Don’t worry Dave, production quality never really bothered me cos I tend to listen more than watch videos about audio equipment while going about the daily chores. I grew up in the generation where live sports events were covered on the radio. And I do kind of miss those days. The old Telefunken Opus valve radio may be long gone, but some of the commentary styles are ingrained in my old but still appreciative memories of those days.
Good review Dave. About three years ago, based on Danny's sales pitch I bought the X-LS Encore's with all the upgrade options, caps, etc... After building the kit and pairing with my Marantz intergrated amp, I expected full rich lively audio. Instead what I got was a rather average, slightly muffled and choked sounding pair of loudspeakers. Moving the Encores to the side, I built my own open baffle full range speakers with my own modest crossover design. The sound for the open baffle speakers continues to amaze and I've since taken orders for several sets to listeners who, like me have found the experience "live like".
There are RUclips "Reviewers" and there are "Influencers".......The line gets blurred...
I find it far more effective and fun to use a graphic equalizer to remedy my speaker issues. Not enough at 1500 herz give it a nudge up. To bright at the top bump it down a touch.
My speakers don't need a flat response in your lab. I prefer my flavor of distortion over his.
I think you are missing out on a lot of purity. As fun as equalizers are, they add a lot of artifacts, and take away from the realism of the music.
Yes but those artifacts are a lot less obvious than having a speaker with an obvious tonality problem.
Definitely an interesting take and I agree 100%! It’s honestly a great experience getting to hear different speakers and the differences between them. A lot of people forget there’s passion involved. As far as for reviewers reviewing the speakers in untreated or lightly treated listening spaces, that’s how most people have their rooms and very few actually have a perfect room with zero nulls or reflection issues and imo reviewing a speaker in a more neutral room brings the speakers close to the buyer.
And Honestly the “Upgrades” Danny sells, completely changes the sound signature of the speakers taking away what makes each speaker special and it’s like a slap in the face to the designer when you change the sound signature that significantly,
No hard feelings towards anyone but I like my speakers to have their differences.
Just my two cents, Happy listening and great video!
✅🍿
well said! love your channel, and greetings from Canada...humility goes a long long way on our social media platforms
I bought my first real Hi Fi about 1972. Klipsch Heresys, a Thorens TT (TD 160) a pioneer SA 5200 Int amp.
It didn't take long to realizethat profits were increased by skimping on what you couldn't see.
Adding some fiberglass to the otherwise empty box of what were then pretty expensive speakers smoothed the harsh lower mids and boomy bass.
I then upped the ante with high grade caps and resistors and air core inductors to even further improvements.
Danny is not pulling a fast one.
Now 50+ years later better quality parts still sound better.Non resonant stands improve inner detail in my magnepans. Pucks under electronics add to depth etc.
I don't know Danny and have never bought anything from him, but it's not snake oil. Real science validates what he says..
Real ears probably do to.
Well done. The biggest problem with Danny is that he is *always* selling a product from his inventory. I like his content, but I have yet to bite. After all, a flat response is no guarantee of good sound. Some speaker manufacturers design for sound, rather than specs. If that was disallowed, there would be no tube gear
Good tube gear has also a flat response. You can not have huge spikes and holes in the response graph and still produce HiFi sound. The signature sound of good products is far more subtle thing.
@@hugobloemers4425 I was referring more to distortion levels, damping factor, etc. There are lots of specs. Some are overused or overemphasized
After watching this video , Im a new follower of your channel ,thank you for the clarity ,honesty and down to earth view of the reviewing art, so now on you have a new fan and follower....
Your comments are greatly appreciated. Thanks
I just subscribed to this Chanel based on this video.. what a great comeback for ordinary reviewers and Hi Fi enthusiasts..
Great video! I think Danny and his strong personality is great! Having GR Reserch help me modify my speakers was the most fun I have had in audio. And the results were well worth the efforts and cost. I look forward to doing it again in the future. There is something about knowing your speakers are better than stock and at there best. I think Danny does have allot of knowledge to share and hope that some RUclips ers take him up on his offer. I think it would make some fantastic content. 👍🏻🔈
Wow the audio community is brutal . I can say this about Danny at GR. I am in no way affiliated with his business but I did one of his speaker upgrades which was pretty fun to say the least. For those that think he’s selling snake oil, you’re wrong. The upgrade was a tremendous difference in sound of my speakers costing was less then the a pair of new ones. If you think it’s bs, try an upgrade form your self and you’ll
See. It’s sad on how brutal the audio community could be. I guess it’s all due to justification of spending thousands of dollars on gear pretending it’s better than someone else’s. Danny is the real deal and truly cares about quality sound at an affordable price and not being ripped off by companies using crappy components in there cabinets.
I wonder if Danny would allow you to bring your own speakers or other components to hear in his listening room so you could do a n A/B comparison
I agree with Danny and think that his remarks was actually an understatement of the industry. Of course he left out some small details. And yes I think that you also made some good points.
His videos are so cringe, I’ve never been able to finish a single GR video.
Nice job, very well said! Excellent even keeled response to Danny’s video. Honestly, don’t understand why it triggered so many people. Was it the most diplomatically done opinion piece ever? No. Was it meant to denigrate certain people? I don’t think so. Danny seems like a good guy to me. He does make some very good points.
I WAS mean to denigrate some people. In fact shots were fired at very specific people. He didn't say the names, he just made sure that if you've been in this community you know who he was speaking of.
Very well done sir. The most thoughtful answer to this pseudo-controversy IMHO. Good news out of all this: I just discovered your channel so I'm going to check it out. As for Danny's video, let's just say he could use a self-awareness course or two and he'll be just fine!
Very well said! You hit on a lot of points that I was thinking as he was saying them! What good is a high end system in a mediocre room? I for one cannot afford such a room, nor do i have the room! I have however acquired some fantastic vintage gear over the years and have had many people say that it is the best sound they ever heard! I have long thought that Danny, while seemingly a good guy, has always tried to get all of us square pegs to fit into the round holes that he preaches are the only correct ones. I too would love to hear a set of his speakers, but i suspect i would be disappointed, because i don't subscribe to a flat sound. I prefer lively yet warm, so color my speakers audio Gods!!
Just because a product measures flat (accurately) doesn't mean it sounds flat. The measured response shows accuracy and not how it sounds. A speaker can measure flat and sound like it is playing through a wet rag or measure flat and be the most lively sounding speaker you've ever heard.
@@dannyrichie9743 that's true and I wasn't trying to be disrespectful at all and I do appreciate how you point out shortcomings from the high end market using subpar components in their equipment, but i do feel that we all hear differently and we all enjoy different sound, just like taste, no two people like all the same things.. To say that one way is best is merely opinion. I have good friends and we all have nice audio gear and we rarely agree on what sounds best... I am all for accurate sound, i am a proud owner of NS 1000m speakers.. I would love to hear your impressions on them. I nearly sold them a couple years ago because they sounded flat and lifeless. Then I moved them and teied a different amp Sansui BA 5000 and wow! What a difference! They arent going anywhere!!
Cheers Danny
Boy! Danny seems to have managed to insult everyone in the HiFi review business.
Danny is a legend in his own mind.
Did Danny ever come back to you Dave?
Read the comment at the top.
I haven't brought any products from Danny but have learnt A LOT from his channel. Dude knows what he is talking about and I am very grateful that he is welling to share his knowledge.
I really enjoy watching Danny's you tube channel, being a Hifi Geek, I just love to see what goes into speakers and Danny seems to know his stuff and really explains things very well.
That said, I do often think if its that easy to make a great sounding flat response loudspeaker, why do the big speaker manufacturers keep getting it soo wrong!!! I feel the answer is in pre production live listening tests......just because the speaker has a flat response does not mean it is going to sound great for all music without sounding fatiguing.....I know they listen to their own products before marketing them....and I suspect that's when the final tweaking of crossovers begins. The human ear creates emotion.... its not an oscilloscope.
Price points dictate everything. Profitability trumps sound quality every time. 90% of compromises are in crossover components.
Sorry, but most manufacturers ( speakers or any consumer products ) don't have permanent engineers on their payroll. Most will use 'consultants' to help in the design phase of a product, followed by cosmetic and publicity management and this where the rubber hit the road. To maximise profit, many compromises are introduced to 'enhance the value' but save on quality. I have worked for a few manufacturers, I know what I'm talking about. The underbelly of the beast is not pretty.
08:14 I don't believe Danny ever said that a direct comparison between his room and the reviewer's room was necessary for every review. He was simply saying that some reviewers on RUclips are placing value on a product without knowing what the possibilities are. He is offering a chance to hear what the possibilities are. Then, the budding reviewer can continue on his channel with a better understanding.
Same could be said of Danny.
@@glennjones6574 That is what i heard. Perhaps your just to tilted.
Way to go buddy. That was a spot-on rant.
Although I think Danny has fairly high value kits, I’ve really had my doubts about his religion of pursuing perfect empirical measurements.
I think lots of people missed the mark or what (I think) Danny was trying to say... the way I took it was him saying your baseline as a reviewer, even if your setup is in-home casual listening, should be the best and closest to ideal setup as possible. Anything short of that would be like an Algebra teacher grading a test that they only know 70% of the answers to.
You sir can best be described as "a diamond in the rough". That is meant as a 100% compliment to you. I can fully understand what you are saying and you aren't wrong....BUT, I honestly believe that what Danny does is actually a service to all of us. I used to own and operate a small electronics repair shop. When I had to replace parts, I always bought the best my suppliers had to offer.
Never radio shack. The difference between cheap components and more spendy quality components is very often like night and day. That applies as well to the crossovers that are in VERY EXPENSIVE speakers. And it is my belief that there is NO EXCUSE for that, none at all. When you lay down 5k,(for example), for a set of speakers, they should have the best of components inside of them, don't you think?
And yes, there are HUGE differences in the quality of components such as a lowly resistor or capacitor that make an even larger difference in the end result. I believe that Danny is doing his best to EDUCATE-not denigrate. Are his kits spendy-yes. But overall, you are getting your monies worth ,imho. And here too, Danny is not FORCING anybody into buying his stuff, he just shows you the before, and after results of his expertise, that's it.
That’s what I tell my wife. Just a diamond in the rough! Thanks
Ohh found the Danny fanboy lol
@@MichelLinschoten Is that a problem for you?
@@MichelLinschoten Fanboy here too, Danny is doing a service for all of us, especially when dropping serious coin for speakers. It is nice to know that there is someone with the knowledge of this gear that shares it freely.
Parts do matter, be they in your dishwasher, your car or you speakers. Junk in, junk out, and more repairs down the road that would not be needed if a quality part were used in the first place. You learn these things after getting burned a few times.
@@MichelLinschoten really?
thoughtful video, dave. have you seen gene dellasala's response from audioholics? i think he handled it well. he's the guy that got into it over danny's claims about cables. it's sort of ridiculous to suggest that someone like gene "isn't ready." i think the two of them should visit each other's setup. gene is a hard science engineering type. his room and testing setup is at least as advanced as danny's. they have very different approaches and i've learned from both channels.
Yes! I like them both. Would love to see a zoom chat with them, if not in the same room.
Gene says he will not go to Texas unless he is paid to go.
Anyone with any intelligence understands that NO ONE wants to give a product a bad review, mainly because these companies could then make you miserable for affecting their profit. A review is the reviewers opinion and little more. There are people who think the sound quality from your average alexa is "good enough" which leads me to believe the whole thing although not correct is highly subjective. Once you understand the big boys with lots have money are allowed by us to control the information we are allowed to receive, you start to look at these reviews quite differently! Do you honestly believe you would get the truth if it is going to affect the profit of any selfish human being? Personally, I'd give reviewers much more credit if they were to tell you they did not like the way something sounded even if it was only their opinion. My personal opinion, from my perspective, sound quality of decent equipment hasn't got that much better from the decent equipment from the 70's and 80's, it's better but not by much, performance, power consumption and power output have got better for the most part. Like the reviewers, my hearing bandwidth degrades with age, so I take it all with a pinch of salt so to speak.
Use your own ears, draw your own conclusions!
Hmm.. one of the 'big' channels also reviewing audio equipment, techmoan, has more than a few "I do not recommend" conclusions on reviewed products, and also quite a few mixed ones, including some big brand products.
Of course, his 'reviews' aim at usability, not at the technical details or at objective audio quality, and should be treated as such.
"My personal opinion, from my perspective, sound quality of decent equipment hasn't got that much better from the decent equipment from the 70's and 80's, it's better but not by much, performance, power consumption and power output have got better for the most part."
If you know where to look, you can get pretty amazing price/performance now which just wasn't possible in the 1980s unless you were building things yourself and had access to components at industrial/large quantity prices maybe.
But something else, much more influential changed. In the 1980s, an at least somewhat decent sound system was a fashionable thing to have, while we'd make do with a single simple speaker for 'video'. Nowadays, most people who have a 'serious' sound system have one primarily built to be used for movies and video, and usually also suitable for music, possibly even good at that.. while the typical 'sound only' solutions are bluetooth speakers, stereo if you are lucky, but often mono, or earbuds, and a phone.
Serious sound equipment primarily aimed at music has become a bit of a niche in the consumer world.
Danny has been making speakers and counselling speaker manufacturers for like 40 years and making speakers is very different from reviewing them . Theres a giant gap of knowledge seperating the 2. He makes some people angry because he shows us the crap parts put in our beloved speakers and you don't make a lot of friend's doing that, but the problem is, he's right. Our speakers , even high end ones, are full of crap parts, like 5 cent and 15 cent parts that could have been easily built better and i must say, if the parts we're a bit better i could understand because of the price point and distributor and dealer fees who take 50% each but when you see the price of the actual parts you get a bit angry and there was nothing you could do about it until Danny came along and i don't take these things personnally. He just calls out what he sees. Now if you love your speakers and want to make them better you at least have an option with the kits. He encourages people to further their knowledge by building the kits which is great in my opinion. And I've never seen a customer be unhappy with his upgrades. As for putting his speakers outhere for review, he has. New record day and Jay Iyagi reviewed them and we're both impressed. From reading a lot about the description of the speakers he makes, Danny seems to have a preference for transparency and soundstage above all so its not for everyone as some people prefer punch and slam and exaggerations in the midband or midbass but he made the bullies and brute if that is your cup of tea. Personally im glad he came along. He showed me that most of our speakers are full of crap parts and could be way better. And that goes for other components as well. I have modified my preamp andcstarted building cables because of him. Knowledge is always a good thing in my opinion. Your speakers aren't you so let's not take this too personally.
I don't agree with some of Danny's methods or opinions but I do appreciate him disclosing the fact that many reviewers keep and ultimately sell the equipment that they review . I believe this practice to be entirely unethical and corrupts the reviewing process . I am sorry if many disagree but if the intent is to sell the component for top dollar it would be counter productive to give a negative review if the component was in fact mediocre . That being said , reviewers who sell components that they have reviewed are not to be trusted .
nice video 💪despite GR sent their products out regularly for review, I had never heard of them before they went on the tube.
Great content. I scratched my head when I looked up GR Research’s upgrade of the Sony SS-CS5 bookshelf speakers. I purchased the speakers for $88 and the “upgrade” is $345?? Hmmmm. Yup. I must be missing something.
The point is they can sound better than their original price point. It’s like driving a mustang but you have a 4-cylinder engine in it.
What you don't want to pay four times the price of your speakers to upgrade them?
@@Corndog642 clearly that is the point but at the total price paid to make them sound really good you have spent upwards of $500. I’d rather look elsewhere.
@@MrRamperez01 Or, if your you’re happy with your speakers you can do nothing further and just enjoy them. The upgrades are for people that like DIY and want to explore the potential of their speakers. Clearly he’s not aiming at average users with average needs. Some speakers he says aren’t even worth upgrading. You may not think your speakers are worth that kind of investment and that’s fine. He’s not judging you for that.
@@Corndog642 Terrible analogy - a Mustang would never sell with a small engine! If you want $500 speakers then buy $500 speakers...
Completely agree. What I most like about your speech is your honesty and humbleness. Kepp it up!
Biggest problem with RUclips reviewers is the immense financial incentive to maximize consumption of products, not necessarily through advertisements. The conflict of interest is rarely a paid advertisement, it's a contract that exchanges products for exposure. It's not that they're too critical! The opposite in fact is true.
We need more skepticism or products in RUclips space not less.
I did see that video with Danny, he did say something to that effect but he did cite an example of what one reviewer did that irked him and it wasn't not having a perfect room but more of not even trying.
Well said Mr. Cutter.
My god, what an amazingly mature and professional video, many need to watch and learn from your soft skills.
Newsflash: the early 1990s are over and gone, gone, gone, and so too are the multiple high-end stereo shops in every urban area across the nation. When I moved here to Memphis, TN. in 1991, there were no less than 3 dedicated high-end dealers in town, plus two smaller specialty shops. Today, not nary a one of these places is still in business. Internet shopping is the only viable option around here unless we make the 3 hour drive to Nashville to visit their ONE high end audio store. As it is, RUclips reviewers such as yourself and the ones you mentioned are VITAL. We simply can’t go to Underground Sound to audition KEFs, then take the 10 minute drive to Modern Music Audio to hear the B&Ws, and finally take the 3 block walk to Opus Audio to try out the Vandersteen’s. I think you get the point.
Keep up the good work because, thanks to home theater and other variables, those good ol’ stereo shops of yesteryear are mere nostalgia.
Well spoken. You are a gentleman and that is why I look forward to your postings.
This is brilliant. Now I Have to watch the GR Research video. Great work Dave! 👏
Low production but full of heart. Great video, and I agree most people not just your viewers but also Danny's customers won't have ideal dedicated listening rooms.
You're right. But Danny's got great points. Most rooms environments and placement of speakers are incorrect for evaluation. Worst of all, most all speakers are designed incorrectly. The crossovers (or the lack thereof - just a tiny cap or two) has been exposed over and over again by Danny. That's where Tomlinson Holman comes in. He created a certification program (THX) that would address the concerns Danny has expressed, just for theaters. I've suggested to Danny that he make videos to evaluate listening environments for the home rather than expressing his distain for his critics.
I don't care how speakers sound in the listening room of a manufacturor, I care how well they match my equipment and listening environment :-)
As does everyone else. Simply listening To speakers in a room specially set up for them is not how you buy speakers.
@@mrlondellsgroovymovies maybe I'm just very lucky.. but last time I bought new speakers, a local audio shop insisted on coming over to my place with the speakers I was interested in, install them, help with proper positioning, and give advice about accoustic treatment of the room (basic advice, if I want something more, they can send someone over, but that will come at a cost).
They insisted on that with the same argument you and me are making here... Our listening room does not tell you how it will work for you.
Sure, I'm not buying 'low end' equipment, but not exceptionally expensive things either (in this particular case, it was a set of KEF R5 speakers)
@@c128stuff I had a similar experience. 30 years ago my mother and I went to listen to martin Logan quest at Rhapsody in Hilversum the Netherlands. I liked the sound but they were outside my budget, they said we have a pair of acoustat x within my means and a date was set, they came, set them up to perfection and it sounded great. Just before leaving they told me if I regretted the buy within a month to call and they would pick them up for a full refund.
My mother bought some bookshelf speakers but didn't have stands, they loaned her a pair and when she liked them and inquired about the cost they sold them for a dime on the dollar, because of demo.
That is what separates the true enthousiast audiophile shop from those who shove boxes out the door asap.
A decade later I visited again, they still knew who I was and what I bought. Great people
@@annebokma4637 "Rhapsody".. I remember them (I went to school in Hilversum).
Now when you are in the market for decent electrostats, its not that uncommon to get them installed including some consultancy on placement and room treatment, its a bit uncommon in the approx 1k per speaker segment tho (unless warranted still by your overall spending).
The shop I bought those speakers from is run by people who formerly worked at RAF Hilversum and Amsterdam.
@@c128stuff true, if you buy new, those acoustat x were second hand. I never experienced that level of service for second hand ever again. The were 3,5k (included tube power amps) but those were before euro so divide by 2. Still miss those, seen a pair online for 2,5k euro so was a good investment. 😂
As ever, many things can be true at the same time.
I think Danny is a very smart, capable speaker designer.
I also feel he has these same qualities as a salesman.
I watch his videos because I am interested in what is inside these pricey speakers, as I am amazed that a particle board box, $100 worth of drivers and a $30 crossover sells for $4,000.
As for myself, as soon as a reviewer tells me that "this power cord will open up your soundstage and increase instrument separation audibly," or "these tube connectors make a real noticable difference," I'm out.
Very interesting. Possibly Danny may have forgot that he was a small operator at one time as well. I do like Danny's channel, educational for me and I appreciate your view Dave, I agree with your statements. I will be spending more time on your channel as well. BTW nothing wrong with you looks, we all look great!
I’ve bought speaker mods from GR and ended up selling the speakers cuz they no longer had the house sound of the manufacturer. So if someone thinks changing the house sound of the speakers they have is what they want I’d say go for it. Otherwise you’re gunna ruin the sound the manufacturer intended for its product. I thought the GR upgrade would simply make the speaker sound better yet keep the house sound. Guess I was a little naive in thinking that.
I’m done modding, just gunna buy the house sound I like. Besides flat response just sounds terrible imho.
Rooms and ears aren't flat. Even bose knew this in 1969.
@@scottlowell493
Ain’t that the truth. I’ve really gone off the reservation in buying an old school 10 band eq and managed to tame a serious bass peak associated with my room. System never sounded better! But don’t tell anyone I’m using an analogue 10 band eq!!😂
Why’d you bother buying the mods? The whole point is to fix the shortcomings of the manufacturer so of course it’s not going to keep the “house” sound. All speakers are built to a certain price point. They have to fall within a certain budget. Most are going to skimp on the crossover or cabinet in order to fall under budget. I’ve owned at least 50 pair of speakers. Some cheap and some not so cheap and highly regarded. Not a single pair sounded good enough in stock form. They all need something.
5:59 Z Reviews definitely does that. But there are other good reviewers that don't do this, like Jay's Iyagi.
Here’s my take on Danny’s video. If most reviewers are “not ready” for his improvements and they are just people like me, with imperfect rooms, etc., then I also am not ready for his improvements.
Also, I believe that the better makes of speakers are “voiced” by designers. If I am not misled, these designers have chosen the attributes and trade-offs that lead to the response curves, etc. of the speakers, within loads of other constraints. The manufacturer then brings the product to market with that voicing and those trade-offs in place. What is the point of trying to make them all have the same or essentially the same frequency response? And again, am I going to hear it in my lowly room?
I think we would all do better to just try to find sound that we *enjoy* in our own rooms, by whatever means necessary, and not let the gatekeepers decide for us.
Except for the 20 to 30 biggest speakers manufacturers, most companies do not have full-time engineers working for them. They use 'consultants' to design a speaker based on technical specifications according to the companies demand. Most of the time, there are no prototypes built and listen to and the 'design' is sent to a panels/glue/driver and packaging factory where they are mass-produced for a few dollars ( mainly China ). I won't talk about the quality control either. Despite that, the wheel goes round because we want our products to be cheap.
would be worth your time to make the trip to TX and hear for yourself what his upgrades do.
The best way to develop an ability to judge audio products is to spend a lifetime around live, unamplified instruments and voices in a variety of acoustic spaces, and then occasionally step into the hi-fi world with un-jaded ears and un-sullied descriptive vocabulary, and compare reproduced sound with your indelible memories of the real thing. Unfortunately, generally speaking, there is an inverse relationship between the number of subscribers to an audio gear channel and the amount of time the reviewer has spent around real, unamplified music. I spent a career teaching bands, orchestras, and choirs in college and high school, directing concerts in spaces large and small, performing myself on various instruments, and teaching private lessons. From my vantage point, most of what the RUclips audio review and marketing world does is silly at best, borderline nefarious at worst. The incredible, eye opening experience most RUclipsrs need won't be found at Danny's or at any stereo shop or in any other reviewer's special room. It will be at the local high school or college music hall or downtown at the civic auditorium listening to real violins, trumpets, cymbals, sopranos. Repeat that experience enough and two things will happen. First, you'll rinse your mind of terms like "soundstage," "slam," "PRAT," "musicality," "bloom," etc. Second, you'll start using language that compares how gear reproduces recorded sound with what the sound actually sounded like.
Thank you for sharing such a thoughtful perspective. It’s so true-nothing quite compares to the experience of hearing real, unamplified instruments and voices in a live setting. That level of exposure can really shape how we perceive and evaluate reproduced sound. Your background in teaching and performing must give you a unique and insightful take on what 'real' sound truly is. It’s a great reminder that our benchmark for audio should always be grounded in the natural, unprocessed experience of live music.
@@MODAC Yes! I don't want a reviewer to tell me speaker A has tighter bass than speaker B. I want him to tell me that A makes an acoustic bass sound more like an acoustic bass. (Electric bass or synth bass is useless.) And I don't want a reviewer to tell me speaker C has a better midrange than speaker D. I want him to tell me speaker C makes a human voice sound more lifelike. Of course that totally rules out many of our musical preferences as tools for gear review; how one famous reviewer thinks he can use EDM to review speakers and amplifiers is beyond me.
As a long time customer and fan of Danny’s, I can say you make some good points. I’ve been an audiophile for over 25 years and I’m still learning! I think the point of Danny’s video is to communicate and find common ground but with the hope of achieving better than average performance.
The vast majority want basic competent performance and that’s all they’re going to pay for. And there’s nothing wrong with that.
I think being an audiophile is to seek out more performance possibilities. It is out there. There are many companies dedicated to this goal.
So the question becomes are you searching for excellence or are you just in it for the average. You’re perfectly free to be either. But if your searching for excellence, then Danny’s point stands that there’s more to learn and more ways of doing things to achieve better performance. And it doesn’t always mean spending thousands more or having a dedicated listening room. One of the simplest things you can do to evaluate a speaker is to pull it away from the walls. You can even compare and comment on different placements. Anyway, good video and commentary.
How did you get that
@@burtonwhiteside1240 How did I get what?
Did you watch his video lol
@@burtonwhiteside1240 Yes. But then I’m more familiar with where he’s coming from and what he’s trying to accomplish. I certainly wasn’t offended by it. All he’s trying to do is help the audio community and that video was geared for audio reviewers.
@@Corndog642 well you are about the only one that didn't see it as offensive but to each his own
After listening to Danny recently I was getting the itchy finger to go on his website and buy the crossover kit for Klipsch RP-600M speakers since I have a pair and his sales pitch regarding what a fantastic upgrade this is for the speakers was swaying me greatly.
Instead of just going ahead and buying them I went through his youtube series of how to do it, and then a follow-up youtube where he had sent them to someone else for a review. That reviewer played a fair bit of audio comparing the modified speaker to the stock speaker. I set up my best headphones and listened carefully and then I read all the comments.
In most cases I could not hear any difference at all between the speakers. In cases where I was able to hear the difference I preferred the sound of the original speaker over the modified version. I read in the comments that many had the same experience I did and preferred the factory Klipsch speaker.
That dismissed my urge to spend $250 and a day of my time on the upgrade. I can only imagine the anger and frustration I would have felt if I went through the modification only to prefer the way the original speaker sounds instead. Of course I would have done one at a time in order to do my own comparison.
I would not single Danny out as being unique in this type of push and rhetoric. All salesmen who work in their respective industries do this in order to put food on the table. It comes with the territory. Audiophile salesman are often able to get away with a lot more because of the subjective nature of hifi listening and as in the field of medicine, placebo affect is quite real. If a person believes they hear a difference or that one setup sounds better than another when in the area of great diminishing returns, well, they hear it or at least think they do. If spending more money to get certain products makes a customer feel better about their hifi rigs, they will be certain that there is a difference. I have nothing against either of those things, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking or selling the idea that the difference is in the audio science where the difference is really in the brain science.
Regarding his charts showing the speaker response before and after the changes he showed what was basically about a 2 db shift in signals leveling things out. 3db is in fact a doubling of power increase or decrease in sound level, but the problem with that is that human hearing perceives sound on the log scale. combined with that the very dynamic nature of how the frequencies are constantly changing in time, and how imperceptible to the human ear that 2 db is going to be, the charts are not meaningful.. The instruments are more sensitive to the difference than our ears, and the chart demonstrates changes in values that are not perceptible to the human ear.
In my opinion the best kind of tests would be double blind tests but you'll never find hifi people that will agree to this.
Go to Audio Science Review, he just reviewed the GR upgrade kit to that speaker. I generally don’t endorse ASR, but it is pertinent to your comment. Thanks
@@MODAC Thanks for the reference. I watched the video and I noticed that he was showing pretty much the same data on charts that Danny showed as well as the other reviewer. In addition he showed many more charts with other kinds of measurement differences. Regarding the scales of the differences they are subtle indeed. In the end he finally got to his own listening experience. It seems that he did the graphing first and the listening later which could affirm why he was parroting in experience what the charts do suggest however subtle which to me could be valid and could also be placebo effect.
One interesting thing he pointed out was how some of the db peaks even though very small increased the driving power requirement of the modified speakers. I personally use a relatively low power output tube amp for my listening. Of course that db difference is probably not large enough to matter and I'm not a high volume level hifi listener anyway.
I feel he did a very thorough review but merely affirmed my conclusions which will always be what I hear, not what other people hear. I realize that how my rig is set up makes the most difference. I get an amazing improvement to the way the speakers sound in my room by moving them from 3 feet out into the room to 6 feet out into the room.
Thanks again for pointing me at the review.
@@MODAC One more point of observation I would like to make is that I've never heard a single reviewer ever claim that they could not personally hear the differences that the most subtle charts that they present shows no matter how small or narrow it might be in the frequency range.
I think it's all part of the hifi game which includes a hard push in the industry to try and gain credibility in their reviews. If they were to state that they could not hear what amounts to what the charts reflect they might be considered knuckle dragging Neanderthals like the rest of us. In my perspective it's often being the child in the room pointing to the naked king and calling it for what we see and hear.
Love it! Was dead on right, you said what I believe everyone was thinking. Thanks
I haven't watched his video YET, but I did watch The Vinyl Attack talk about this same video. I like most people probably can't afford high end equipment so I do the best I can with what I have or can even begin to afford. I watch a lot of reviews here on YT or read online reviews and try to make educated decisions or guesses on what to buy. Honesty always wins!
Dave, what happened with the 4 or 5 monster vintage amplifiers from the end of the receiver wars you found on a garage that belonged to an old lady neighbor of you?
You can to, download same fancy testing software like REW and CLIO and buy fancy testing hardware cheap prices, to test speaker
Sir, I will humbly admit- I thought your video was clickbait and decided to watch it to see something comical to some degree of making a partially true point, but while looking petty or ignorant in some manner or fashion, but I'm proud to say I was wrong. Not only was I completely mistaken, but you actually handled your response to GR Research in the upmost respectable manner and covered every point with delicacy but with pure thoroughness where needed and dead-on fairness in a kind manner. Much respect, and I can honestly say that, in no scenario, would I have handled that any better myself. In fact, this is the kind of video that should always be made when handling responding to a channel with criticism on just the fundamental aspect of true respectfulness in handling a conflict, alone. For that, you've more than earned a subscribe from me and I feel like it should be all of our duty to give credit and support where needed in the community when individuals like yourself do what's right when presenting their content which likely involves a more realistic or down-to-earth representation of the community as a whole, rather than many of the RUclips personalities we look up to/support etc. Well done! I'm a big fan of the Cheapaudioman and his approach to HiFi on RUclips and I'm confident than many of us in his fanbase as well as similar channels that evolved from your average relatable person who's also on their HiFi journey just like the viewer supporting their channel would appreciate as well. I hope to see some more great content and humble points of view from you in the future. Cheers!
PS - don't sweat production values so much. Steve Guttenburg, himself, doesn't present his channel in a way that looks like it could be a show you browse over to on Dish Network, yet many people, including myself, hold his thoughts/opinions to a much higher degree of consideration than we do with channels that possess that polished production value :)
Wow, that was one of the nicest comments I have ever received! I am humbled and very pleased that you will be joining me on this journey to audio enlightenment. Best regards, Dave at MOD.
I just subbed, dude. You speak like you have a PhD.
03:49 Misleading statement: They aren't all budget speakers. There are a wide variety of price points.
Misleading?
@@MODAC Yes. You implied that Danny only looks at budget speakers. But they are not all budget speakers. So, a person could incorrectly assume by your statement that Danny only looks at budget speakers.
Love this video. You had me cracking up. You got yourself a new subscriber.
Well said Danny, Payola is alive and well on RUclips, I long ago gave up on reviews because they are so rigged.
Dave, I've seen your videos and I'm almost certain that Danny wasn't referring to your channel.
Most of your reviews are on "classic" gear and the bygone era of gear not availiable to everyone in every state.
However, it was cute of you to throw your hat in the ring.
Bringing home gear that sounds radically different than it did in the hi-fi showroom has been a bone of contention to the home audiophile for as long as I can remember and I'm old. You could almost say 'bait & switch', but not really if you took home exactly what you had demonstrated in the showroom b y the salesperson. At least Paul @PS Audio has written a book on how to setup and tune you system for your living space. Even the 'big gun' reviewers on RUclips will readily admit, the choices out there are almost infinite and changing all the time. You'll rarely see anybody say something to the effect of;"You have a 20' x 16' room, this is exactly the stereo system you should have!" I'm glad to have choices, but it also becomes overwhelming unless you're the sort that is always tweaking and upgrading your system. Personally, I find that tedious. Room acoustics can radically change any system....but how far, how much to spend on that and for what gain is always the question. In fact you can say that about hi-fi in general, "How far and how much to spend for what gain?'
I think this may be the first video of yours I have watched. I'll check out a few more. It's nice to have another Floridian audiophile. I'm in SE FL, what part of the state are you in?
I understood Danny's comment about listening rooms as indicating a lack of a consistent methodology when analyzing the product. Without the supporting qualitative evidence from such an approach, a "subjective" opinion is merely arbitrary.
why don’t you just take up the offer and film the whole process? that will settle it once and for all…
Everyone loves a good fight. I saw Danny's video and other vitriolic reactions to it. I don't consider myself an audiophile, have nothing to sell.and have no dog in this fight. But I am a music lover of both live and recorded sound, at least some it. So what am I doing on these sites? I find them entertaining and a great opportunity to troll everyonr.
So despite the emotions you have about what Danny does do you disagree with his measurements or the methodology he uses? Do you disagree that a lot of expensive speakers are made with cheap parts and are therefore insanely overpricrd?
Perhaps you'd agree with me. The technology is poor, primitive, doesn't sound like music, What .most people including audiophiles listen to is only worthy of an ipd and ear buds.
yes my friend that is my believe as well .most of us buy speakers and can only see the outside of them i had a pair of Linn speakers that i decided to fix the woofer myself so after looking inside of it it was terrible the cheap crossover they had and crossbracing there was nothing woodvenner.was garbage .this is from a manufacturer who sell very expensive products .so the public doesn't see the inside of a speaker .the unknown truth
None is this stuff is “insanely overpriced” if you actually understand what goes on behind the scenes do to speak. These people have a ton of expenses, besides just the parts in the speakers. It’s far from that simple, and I feel completely unfair to present it as such.
This is the equivalent of people coming into a restaurant and comparing the food they got to what they could buy at a supermarket. Yet, like you guys seem to be doing, they conveniently (or ignorantly i.e. they just don’t know/understand) they leave out the restaurant owners other expenses. In an ideal situation a restaurant would keep their food costs to below 20%. That of course never happens though, and it’s usually closer to twice that figure. Labor is similar. And then there’s all the other expenses on top of that. Still think they’re robbing you? I don’t.
My point is yes of course you can buy better components yourself, and put it all together yourself. That’s beyond obvious. But are you simply forgetting all about the fact that these people have to pay out money for so much more then that?
That they have to pay people to design, test, and build them? That they have to rent, or own a facility to do all this in? That they have to heat that facility? To buy electricity every month, to pay insurance, workers comp, health insurance for employees, match 401K’s, water bill, buy test equipment, pay those employees (do you know how much an EE makes nowadays? It ain’t chicken feed! That’s for sure), etc
And then there’s the distributors, and the dealers too. Many times their cut will exceed what the manufacturer takes in. Because there expenses are just as large. And all 3 of them aren’t doing this simply for fun. No all 3 still have to make a living for themselves too.
And if they do consumer direct. It’s not really a lot better in the end. Because then you’ve got big advertising budgets, shipping costs, and they have to hire even more employees then too. It goes on and on. The cost of the groceries are only a part of a meals cost. To look at them, and them only is wholly unfair to the companies that build these speakers.
Yes you can put together parts in a box yourself, and make a speaker. But are you really qualified to make it sound good? Is all the equipment required to build a speaker readily available to use for free? No you’ll have to buy, or use the tools you’ve already paid for to build them. Your time, your labor, and your skills too. Are you saying they owe their time, labor, and skills to us for free?
I’m sorry, but I just don’t understand where this idea of looking at just the parts and judging something’s worth came from. But it’s completely unrealistic, unfair, and dare I say self serving. It reinforces your feelings yes. But it’s simply not realistic, nor is it based in reality. In the real world these guys have to watch every penny they spend on the products they sell. And even then many don’t make it in the end. Very few of these people, outside the large manufacturers (who rely on volume), make a lot of money. In fact some of them can’t even afford their own speakers! And that’s no BS either. I’m sure you’ll call BS, but you’ll be wrong.
Sorry guys not buying it for one second. We’re not getting ripped off. We’re choosing to accept reality, and enjoy our lives. And our music. There’s a very real DIY world out there for people who aren’t happy with that. Try it out, and have fun. But either way, just have fun. And please, stop thinking everybody is trying to rob everybody. It gets in the way of you enjoying your life, and your music. And isn’t THAT supposed to be the whole point of this in the end? ✌️
@@amb3cog Yeah, yeah I heard Sean explain it. Every guy who can build a box that doesn't fall apart and cut a round hole in it is a speaker builder. This stuff made and built in China is so damned cheap they can give it away for nothing and still make a profit. The world is drowning in stuff. Me too. I need more audio equipment like I need a third testicle. Oh, have you heard the new super duper
÷=%_€€£₩¥£€=÷? It blows everything else away. Yes it costs $1000000000 but for music it's worth it. When you hear that guy shrieking his guts out and that fuzz box electric guitar overloading that amplifier you know you're hearing the right distortion just like it would deafening you live. That buzzing noise is part of the recording. It's supposed to sound that way.
@@markfischer3626 “They could give it away for nothing”
Really? You know that’s not actually true AT ALL! What gave you this idea? Does “nothing” pay the rent? I don’t think so.
And this isn’t about Sean. This is about the nonsense I’ve heard from people my whole life. You know what I’m talking about here. The people complaining that we charged them $0.50 for a blue cheese container to go with their wings.
Did we get it free? Do I work for free? Does the guy who poured it into the cups work for free? Is this building free? Is our electricity, heat, or hot water free? Do you know the cups coat as much if not more then the blue cheese dressing does? Etc. Etc. Etc.
And it’s like this constantly with certain types of people, and locations. Other places, where people get it, like the place I’m at now (I still deliver pizzas a few nights a week for extra money). Are totally different. They’re happy to pay for what they want, and are happy for our effort. They get it. Many of our customers are in business for themselves also, and understand how hard it is. It’s never been easy, but it’s gotten a lot harder then it used to be.
When my Dad was running his Auto Body Shop back in the day (mid 70’s until the early 90’s or so IIRC) it wasn’t nearly as bad as it is today. It’s very tough to run a business nowadays, and the costs of what you’re selling are usually way less then you spend on everything else to run the place.
So like I said. To look at a pizza and say you could go buy the ingredients for less then half that at the supermarket is technically true. But you’re not going to get that same pizza at home, unless you have a real pizza oven. And actually know what you’re doing. Which takes time and effort. You know those things we all get paid for at our jobs. Which means they equal money at the end of the day.
If one doesn’t think the pre-made anything isn’t up to their standards, or isn’t worth the spend. That’s fine. Go ahead and build your own. I may even help you for the fun of it, and to learn. But to say that companies are actually overcharging for their products is disingenuous at best, and downright dishonest at worst. Really it’s just ridiculous to say such things. If one were to give it some real thought. They would realize this.
This is proven by the fact that most of these speaker makers aren’t making that much money at the end of the day. Same with most restaurant owners nowadays also. Something I see with my own eyes every week at work. Profits at small businesses are not what they once were.
Yes it’s still one of the best risks to take, but that risk has gotten bigger over the years. And IME these people aren’t trying to take advantage of their customers. They’re just trying to make some money, while doing something they’re okay with doing everyday. Or sometimes even doing something they love to do. And I simply don’t think it’s fair at all to act like they’re any different then the rest of us are. We’re all just trying to survive, and hopefully to thrive. And that’s just capitalism at work, not some sort of thievery. ✌️
@@amb3cog If the cost of the parts is such a small factor in the overall price why don't they use better parts? It's because they're cutting corners everywhere they can. Danny proves it with every posting. When he tells you the parts are junk is he lying? The parts don't lie. The measurements don't lie. The reviewers lie. They praise this stuff to the sky. Many of these small manufacturers are garage operations. Among the many thing I've built in my life are manufacturing plants. The computer chip in that 30 dollar gizmo you bought was manufactured in a plant that cost many tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars to build. Economy of scale is just one of countless ways these manufacturers miss opportunities to cut costs. Off standard parts are another. Much expensive wire is just rebranded wire made by someone else and sold at a fraction of the price. It's not my money so I really don't care what you spend yours on.
Funny that you include Techmoan in that list - he really does not do hi-fi, I wish someone would initiate him.
He has done hifi. Check out his older videos.
Have you purchased one of his upgrade kits and beefed up a pair of your speakers?
I agree 💯.Comes across that he was the first and last guy brains were given to
Production values and looks are I guess somewhere in the equation. Honesty and passion and engagement and knowledge or lack of knowledge in the subject matter is to me where the value and entertainment is at. Thank you for your vids.
Danny does a great job in the education of speaker buyers. Speaker manufacturers now have to step up. Kudos to Danny.
I left the video with the feeling that Danny, like experts in any field might feel as young upstarts gain popularity without the same level of experience of ability as themselves, felt cheated. Ask anybody who is getting older about their experience compared to the pretty young things that are getting all the attention around them. One feels slighted and a little bit irked. You wake up one day and the world seems different, the old rules don't apply like they used to, values seem askew and the new generation just doesn't seem to know what they're talking about. Well, sometimes that is true but it is not for anyone to say. Life goes on. I like Danny. I like his character and I think his videos are good. The callout was a mistake. Not so much the theory but the naming. As soon as you start naming it becomes personal. Business is business, it is NOT personal. It doesn't matter if a person has ZERO experience in a field and finds success, that is business. In a sense that could be called good business. Or just savvy. I say there is room for everyone and let the audience decide. As soon as you start to call names you look threatened or insecure. Add age (I'm sorry to harp on age but I think it is relevant here) and you will be summarily dismissed by a very large demographic. It was a misstep. I will still watch his videos. I will still have my favorites (Darko). But in business and life, we like what we like. I bought Buchardt A500s solely on the Darko review. That's power. I bought the Audeze LCD=X watching the Headphone show. These review sites work. They sell products. If some reviewers make a little side=cash selling freebies they don't need I have absolutely no problem with that. Almost everyone I know has some kind of side-hustle. Even people who have money, it's the way things are.
I’m older than Danny, but I am an upstart. Thanks
I have watched a couple Gr research videos and my opinion is that a great deal of time was spent on minor things in the cross over that he felt horrible about so he saved us all from less then perfect audio by selling expensive crossover parts that change the location of our money into his bank account.
Danny is right that a lot of speakers have horrible components for the price they are marketed at. I am also sure you can take them up a notch or two by spending the money he asks for his products. Danny is also honest that this often only makes sense if you have already bought such product. (Perhaps because such customer drank Steve's or Andrew's Cool-Aid?) However it is seldom true that it makes sense to buy a flawed speaker + a GR research upgrade to get the best speaker for your money.
@@hugobloemers4425 With the greatest respect Hugo, you've had the wool pulled over your eyes. You're the perfect customer for GR-Research.
I get both sides here. I'm an enthusiast, but I live within the real-world limitations most people face. I have only so much discretionary income--and, to be fair, Danny's products aren't insanely expensive, but they do require a typical person to think about how he's spending his money. That's not a gripe, just a statement of fact. I have a living room / family room designed by a builder I never met, and it's far from ideal. The actual environment in which I would listen to music is imperfect, and there really isn't anything to be done about it. I appreciate reviewers who tell me what things sound like within limits like these, because that's all I have. Will Danny's products sound good enough in my environment to justify spending the money on them? That's a question that deserves an answer. Whether those same products would sound better in an environment I could never have in my home is, in many ways, irrelevant, even if I genuinely do want to know the answer to that question, too. I think that reviewers who take into account the realities within which most enthusiasts actually CAN listen to music do perform an important service. So, thank you, Danny, for being a perfectionist. I can totally relate to that, and I want to learn everything you have to teach. But thank you, Dave, and everyone else like you, for just giving us your opinion on what's out there for people to buy, from your own imperfect listening environments.
Richard. Danny doesn't say it's mandatory for customers to have a fully treated room to enjoy his speakers. What he is saying is that someone who is an enfluencer should have the best possible setup in order to be able to tell the difference between decent, good and great. Saying that they are testing in an imperfect environment because that's how most clients will listen to music is a BS and def a cop-out. No two rooms are alike and wathever issues that reviewer has in their room will not be the same as you have in your room. Also, Danny is really good at giving advice for your specific situation. If you can't take your speakers 4+ feet off the front wall for example he will advise you appropriately..towards his nx-studios for example.
I can understand where Danny is coming from. Once your system is at a level where individual components matter it makes you say "Come and listen to my setup. I will show you what good sound is all about."
Not to show off but to simply demo what words could not explain.
Many moons ago I built an active system with high quality amps and designed an active 4 way crossover, for each speaker (Dynaudio drivers) and went through all the different upgrades of interconnects, speaker wiring, audiophile grade components throughout the whole system. All the wiring was done using military grade silver plated oxygen free copper in teflon sleeving. From the CD player to the speakers all was constantly changed to improve the sound. You name it i did it.
Each little improvement also uncovered flaws in other parts of the system. All the changes and improvements just highlighted how the weakest link in the audio chain has an impact. It took a long time to get to a stage where I could truly relax and just listen to the music from pop to rock to classical. I just played what I was in the mood for and truly go immersed in the sound.
Yup, Danny at GR research has a lot to offer and I too would like to visit and listen....but....when he uses FM frequencies as a test of speaker cable.....or when he refuses to offer product for independant review I am dissappointed.
Dave, I like your style, a Man's Man. And Danny's reply was very gentlemanly. I have no horse in this race, or dog in this fight, I enjoy watching all of you guys. I think I can speak for at least a few, we are adults and can make decisions based on both the reviewers opinions and Danny's know how in regards to speakers and measurements. I can see both sides of this coin, and realize too, that some speaker manufactures don't go by measurements alone.
That being said, this was an enjoyable video or rebuttal, it was good, and I subscribed. Thank you sir. ;-)
We’ll Done Dave…. Thank You.
How are you going to approach the tech aspects of building a better room. Any details? Please no generalities - just plans based on science and materials. Thanks
Keep up the good work , Some people are just haters .Most products wether Hi-fi or not are built to a price.. Some people have a agender in selling their own products .
The listening room is extremely important to the sound of speakers. A reviewer can't make certain conclusions on performance without taking the room into consideration. Giving a pair of speakers to a reviewer who places and reviews them in a bad room can make conclusions that are erroneous. Just providing some pushback.
Yes, I’m aware. My room is well treated. Thx
It’s cool to get varying opinions. No harm for folks like yourself who are critical thinkers. I think Danny missed out by not celebrating the young who get into audio. As Thomas & Stereo says it’s a journey. I’ve enjoyed the journey for decades starting when I was a child with a transistor radio.
If the average Joe reviewer isn't worthy to evaluate Danny's products, then how can any of his customers be worthy to receive them?