Wait, so the tithing mandate is in Duteronomy? Doesn't that make it part of the Old Testament covenant that was overturned when Jesus died on the cross?
I don't know anything about Dave Ramsey beyond what this guy just told me but this quip didn't logically address Ramsey's concern. Ramsey didn't see social security as income since people put more of their income into it then they'll get out. That the Israelites collected a tithe and used it for social security has no bearing on Ramsey's question as to whether or not SS is income, and therefore tithable as such. It seems the guy making the video had a political point to make that resulted in a non sequitur.
I'm not a conservative, but generally their complaints are about government safety nets. Your local church providing services for the poor would not only be acceptable, but the preferred method.
Growing up my family struggled to pay bills, lived in a tiny dirty house where I shared a bedroom with three other siblings. There were many times we went hungry with no food in the house or with no electricity or water waiting until Friday for my dad’s paycheck. In spite of this my parents always gave at least 10% to the church, which insisted to always be the very first thing paid. The pastor’s family lived much better than us, receiving not only tithes but numerous gifts and favors and free labor for things like cleaning and home renovations. To make things worse they taught my parents that receiving welfare was sinful and my parents refused to apply for food stamps or accept any other kind of assistance except through the church.
I hope this has caused you to reconsider religion. If you look around, you will see there are many pastors/priests who act in the same way. But if you still want to believe in god, you do not need the middle man: you can relate directly.
@@annepoitrineau5650 A relationship with God is essential. But you're literally giving the opposite advice as Paul. We are the body of Christ, and we shouldn't seek to isolate ourselves. It's troubling to see the wolves in sheep clothing, but you shouldn't abandon the church because of Judas.
Regarding tithing animals: It is worth noting that sacrifices were always MALE animals, not because males were holier but because you only needed one or two rams to keep increasing the flock. It is reasonable to assume that tithe animals were likewise extraneous males and would pose no real burden on the owner.
A sheep/ram could still provide wool, and an oxygen can be used as a beast of burden. But maybe having too many males around would be troublesome any way if they compete and fight each other a lot. It's probably good to keep at least 1 extra male animal in case of injury or disease
@ - A very rare animal raised from birth for a complex ritual that could be performed only when such an animal was available. Nowhere near the same thing as a tithe or regular sacrifice.
I grew up Mormon where pretty much everyone pays 10% or more of what they make. Boy when i grew up and left the church and found out they were a multi billionaire church i was so mad. I remember people in my congregation who really struggled to put food on the table but they still gave that 10% every month
@SportPhilosophies it would be nice if they published their financials for transparency. That way instead of having faith that the money was spent wisely you could just see where it went.
Tithing is not the churches sole source of income. There are all sorts of avenues through which a 401c3 can finance their cause… For example… Deseret Book is a commercial enterprise, and while it is owned by an influential Mormon family, it is not owned by the church directly. Because Deseret Book publishes and/or distributes so much promotional material for the church, they are eligible for tax free grants from the church. And The family that owns Deseret Book can pay tax deductible “tithing” to the church…. Give and take. Heber J Grant was the President/Prophet that set that one up, selling the business to the man that married one of his daughters. I could go on, but that would be a waste of time. Do with your money what you will.
@SportPhilosophies have you SEEN how the LDS General Authorities live and what is within their reach due to their wealth? And not just them, the intelligensia running the chuch corporation are also very well paid. That's from tithing money. this fairy tale that it all goes to charity or maintenence is only partly true...they sin by omission when they fail to report the salaries of the "Apostleship." its a money generating machine masquerading as a religion.
Three religious leaders, ( I'm not specifying which religions ), were talking about how they deal with the tithing in the plate each week. The first said " I draw a circle on the floor, about 6 inches. I then throw the money into the air, the money in the circle goes to me, the rest to god." The 2nd said " I also draw the circle and throw the money but the money in the circle goes to god, the rest to me. " The 3rd said " I throw the money in the air. What god wants he keeps."
The first i think is Orthodox since they don't require their folks to pay tithe The second is either Catholic/Protestant, they insist 10% of their folks' income The third is Islam, all their money based on donation, encouraging their folks to give the money/stuff directly to the poor without the institution involvement
@@kadaltokek3953 The version was ALL christian and they were all going very well for themselves. So they are all christian or all muslim or all whatever, it is a observation on how little honesty is in that position.
As a member of the Jewish community I know a lot of poor families who get all their meat for the year off of the tithes of other family members. In the Jewish faith it is much more of a local social security if you notice a neighbor in need give your 10% to help fund their wedding or buy them groceries.
if tithes are, at least in part, supposed to support the poor then if someone is struggling to make ends meet they should be getting some of that tithe money given to them to support them in their hardship. Not desperately trying to negotiate down how much they have to pay the church
The problem is that these megachurches have a very liberal definition of what counts as helping the poor. Preaching or giving out pamphlets can count as “helping the poor” because they’re helping “spiritually.” Or it can be giving merch with phone numbers and websites. Because hey, you’re “giving to the poor.” Nobody said you’re giving direct cash to the poor. This is also how secular high-overhead scam charities work, like Kids Wish.
I go to a pentecostal church that does tithing and let me tell you for months I have not tithed because I knew money was not asked for by God to the israelites. I believe by choice and by grace we give money to support the needy in the church and to help the poor outside of the church.
@@jcavs9847 I would if the commandment hath said give your tithe meant for the levites, widows,poor and strangers as Money for Pastors and for the "church". Mind you Church is not the physical building we use to gather but we are. Also what storehouse we have today to put our animals, fruits,wine and oil? I do agree that we should tithe just as our father Jacob in Gen 28:20-22 By that I mean voluntary, I am not saying you should vow as he vowed but as you desire to, do. Some people think if they pay their tithes ie give up their money they will be blessed. It is good to gender kindness with your money. However the moment you show off and boast giving your money to God instead of doing it in secret with sincerity of heart and obedience to his awe; is a moment I can not take delight in. I have heard people said we are not under the law but bring up Malachi 3:8-12 to support today's tithing. I understand your argument but you have to gather more than just what you presented in order to persuade believers like me on modern tithing.
One thing that gets left out of the conversation about tithing is that the examples of one-tenth given are not total income but specific forms of income. The bits in Levicitus and Deuteronomy are referring to income from livestock and agriculture, something you'd really only have as a landowner and not the servant of a landowner, tenant farmer, or someone selling their labor. Exodus 30 seems to set a minimum of a half-shekel a year (like, a half day's minimum wage a year).
Kudos on the sponsor “give directly” I’ve thought but never been able to articulate the problem with sending items/specific aid overseas If you send a ton of shoes you put the local shoe maker out of business. If you give a family money they will spend that money on the shoes which will support the local shoemaker who will then spend that money in his community. Much better solution
sadly true, too often. One must use one's discretion. There are churches where tithes buy the pastor a personal jet, and then there are churches which, upon getting $3000, immediately decides to use $1500 of it to fund a local non-profit's annual day of volunteer home and yard work for seniors and those in poverty, another $500 to a local outreach for debit cards to help low-income and homeless people buy gasoline, and earmark the remaining $1000 for future community opportunities, similar to the opportunity they took 3 months before to provide a cabinet to the food pantry at a local school to deter vermin. If a church can't produce minutes and financial reports telling you where the money is going, don't give to them.
From where I live, the local catholic parish specifies the purpose for the monetary collection every time they do one and giving is only voluntary. And they are also transparent with how much money they collect and what did they spend it on. I wish all churches, catholic or not, could do the same.
It’s a temple tax under the Old Covenant, not a mandate for contemporary Christians. We are called to be cheerful and gracious givers, givers who exceed a set amount. Giving unconditionally to the oppressed and needy first. Modern Evangelicals have turned this ancient practice into a grift, a way to fund their turgid megachurches and overpaid “pastors.” Thanks for this rational presentation.
When the laws were given, the nation of Isreal were a theocratic Bronze-Age society wandering in the desert. A portion of the nation, the tribe of Levi was portioned off to do religious and governing duties. We call those taxes today, because it's the government that does the administrative portion of what the Levittes did. We all grew up with the "pay to Caesar what is owed to Caesar and pay to God what is owed to God' but let's face it, the Christian faith is terrible at explaining what that means. If the parable had any logical semblance, the next question would have been the disciples asking Jesus for clarification if they should be paying 20%, 10 to God and 10 to Caesar. If anything, since the Church serves no significant administrative purpose in this modern age, the tithe should be re-apportioned accordingly....
@@stuntmonkey00 In context, the pay to ceasar what is owed to ceasar is jesus telling the pharisees to pay their taxes while evading their blasphemy allegations, whil give to god what is his due means your mind and soul, which, in christian doctrine, god made.
@@mvalthegamer2450 So, the pharisees asked Jesus if they should pay Roman taxes, and Jesus said 'yes', but he felt people expected a little more from him and added some unnecessary words. Thankfully you did see through it.
@@mvalthegamer2450 Well yes; we all learned that as the clever way of how Jesus evaded a trap question, but as i said, it's written as a work of literature. Story-wise, the episode ends there, roll credits. But if that happened as it would in actual life, his disciples would have been a) Great answer, that showed them! b) But wait, does that mean....
A rich dude insisting that a poor person tithe is just insane. And you hit a nail on the head. He finds an excuse to tithe as little as possible. If he actually tithes at all.
I don't have an issue with tithing as a concept itself; if you're able to give money regularly to those less fortunate without causing yourself financial difficulties, then I think that's great. Doing it as part of an organised group could offer efficiencies, assuming they use the money in good faith. I don't even have a blanket issue with it going to the church; if someone considers their church to be a valuable community space and it, for example, needs major repairs then I don't see an issue with those who are able to contributing towards its upkeep via tithing. What I take issue with is religious groups using it as a cudgel by making people feel they have to give when they can't afford it, give more than is reasonable, gatekeeping spiritual access (i.e. the Mormons), and/or using it to benefit only the religious group rather than the needy. I wish we could always trust religious groups to manage tithing responsibly, but unfortunately I don't think we can. 😓
Exactly. Despite being an atheist I give around 10-15% of my income to non-profits, no doubt thanks to Peter Singer. It should be a moral obligation to those of high stature, but not for a poor woman suffering from debt.
I only trust groups I'm a member of. I get to vote on the budget every year and see how that's spent. I actually think our pastor is severely underpaid for a leadership position.
nice essay buddy. turns out no one cares about what you think about tithing. You're not a scholar, nor a prophet, nor a god. Why did you comment this? Schizophrenic?
In America. Remember the rest of the world? Hi, it's us and we don't depend heavily on tips and still call ourselves a first world country. But you enjoy your freedom.
When covid hit, and I (with numerous serious co-morbidities) had to self-isolate, I started saving my tithes so I could "keep up" with it...during that time however, I ended up having to go on disability, retiring from all work completely, and my SS check is paltry, and as it was money I'd *already* tithed from, I couldn't really see cutting it even further... ...but as soon as I felt safe going out again, my church I'd been going to was still not having public services...the core congregation were still doing a conference call every Sunday, so I began donating my saved tithes directly to the many homeless I have encountered. I know it helps them immensely, and it is the proper use of that money. Any gifts I get, well, that too gets tithed to whoever I first see who is in need. Having prayed on this deeply, I have felt that this is what He wants me to continue.
Social security recipient here. All Americans pay into social security. It is your money. Don’t let anyone tell you it’s “unearned income.” You worked for that money. And if you had to go through the disability process, you’ve worked for it twice.
I can't recall any mention in the New Testament about a 10% donation requirement. Instead, it emphasizes giving according to one's ability, highlighting the importance of cheerful givers. Although there are instances of individuals selling their land to contribute to charity, personal contributions were meant to be based on what one could afford, with special blessings for those who give from their need.
@@lastyhopper2792 To the best of my knowledge he never let go of his wealth. There are many instances where he talks to people but really only 1 instance like this which occurred in 3 books. I believe he went away in disappointment, he was eager to please, claimed his virtues but left once he was told to sell his lands or at least I don't recall further mentions of him after.
I love my Pastor, before I went to the church I asked to meet him and I asked him many questions for over 2 hours. Let me tell you that man is truly a man of God. He doesn’t believe in tithing but in giving. When you set a “giving” base line it becomes a responsibility and does not come out of love but out of duty. He’s never asked for a “tithe” and God has grown that church so much. Yes some Pastors will drill that into Gods people but won’t do anything for the community. My Pastor has a benevolent offering for us to get things for the feeding ministry and an offering for the church but never a tithe. I’ve learn more from him in 2 years than in the rest of my life under other Pastors.
For many years I faithfully gave 10% of my and my wife' salaries to the church until I woke up and discovered the truth, I am not mad, just sad it took me this long, but indeed the truth set us free.
Well, how are these so called megachurch or prosperity gospel preachers going to make money then? If the people were to realize the truth and stop giving money to these people, then these preachers would not be able to fund their church and business.
As someone who read the Bible, tithing was about giving a tenth of the firstfruits of harvest and other things, not money. Yet many of these preachers have twisted the concept of tithing and made it about giving money and whatever is valuable to the church. Also, the Bible itself says to give generously without compulsion and that whatever you give should go to those in need and that the Lord "blessing you with more" was meant for doing more works of giving, not using for oneself. Yet, many of these preachers pressure, manipulate, and even gaslight those in the congregation to give their money to them and their church
Torah tithes: - first fruits, to the temple (percentage not specified), - offering to the priests /kohanim (2%), - first tithe, to the levites (10%), - second tithe, to the temple (10%), - poor tithe, to be given to poor people (10%). Agricultural commandments to leave a part of produce to the poor and strangers: - corners of the fields (percentage not specified, but jewish tradition says at least 2% of the crops), - gleanings (percentage not specified), - forgotten sheaves (percentage not specified), - grapes and produce not ripe at the time of harvest, - grape and produce which falls down during the harvest. Sabbath year /shmita, which is every seventh year: - no agriculture is to be practiced, and all the produce which grows on its own is for the poor and strangers, one is to eat only from stored foods, - on this year also all debts are to be forgiven. Jubilee year, which is after seven sabbath years, ie every 50 years: - all slaves, captives, and prisoners are to be liberated, - land redistribution, - no agriculture on this year either (so along with the seventh sabbath year that means two consecutive years of no agriculture), but what grows on it's own can be eaten by anyone. In the NT, John the Baptist and Jesus go much further and say you should give away your wealth, and not have more than you need. According to Jesus you can't get saved unless you do that. Weird how Evangelicals and other conservative Christians ignore all of this.
One of the few intellectual responses I've ever seen with very poignant references. People are too stuck in their institutionalized mentality of supporting the 'church' even though the church isn't a building or an organization.
A bronze-age society which could survive just straight up doing no agriculture every seventh year must have been incredibly wealthy. Do we know from archeology if this law was actually followed in practice?
Something consistent in most branches of the Abrahamic faiths is the idea that no law supersedes one's health. Someone in the States making $2000 a month is very far below the poverty line, and I would say that giving when you already don't have enough for yourself and your family is not mandatory because it endangers your health. Giving that $200 might as well be the woman giving her two coins to the temple for how much a tithe is worth on poverty. I would also argue that the same applies to secular law and that necessities should be freely given to all, but that's another story.
Dave Ramsey has his figures wrong for FICA/SSI. If you work consistently for 43 years and start at $15 minimum wage and get a 3% raise every year, then you will contribute $160K in FICA payment (6% of wages). Your employer will contribute the same amount. So if you get $1500 per month in SSI, you have almost 9 years of payments discounting annual COLA adjustments, on your contributions and an additional 9 years on your employer's contributions. The money in the Social Security Trust Fund also grows annually, but slower than the stock market. So you have depleted your "account" at age 81 or so (65 + 16). At age 65, you have a reasonable expectation of living an additional 16 years. This is a simplification of the realities of social security. The social security system was set up to address the problem of elder poverty. I personally believe that SSI/SSDI is income and that a portion of that gross income should be directed to charities, non profits, and churches. Same for RMD from IRA's and 401K's.
Please do not use "SSI" when you mean "Social Security benefits". It drives me crazy as a tax practitioner when people do this.There is a government program called "Supplemental Security Income" that has "SSI" as an acronym and is completely separate from Social Security. At least at my current job there are no clients on (the actual) SSI, but it was very common when I was a volunteer for doing poor people's taxes. Part of my training for that was to make sure to understand the difference between the two, because we knew there would be people who used "SSI" when meaning "Social Security benefits", because that's just what has for some reason worked its way into society. I'm doing my best to try to stop people from doing it whenever I see it happen.
By the power invested in me by the cult I have started and by the authority which lies in the power of my wearing of many long thobes, scarfs, keffiyahs, and vestments I pronounce the allowance of you to remove moneys out of the offerings according to the losses you incur during your trading of stocks and bonds.
From what I understand, tithing in the Catholic world depends on where you are. I recently moved from one very catholic nation to another and was surprised that I now had to pay tithing. Emphasis on "had to", even though I'm an atheist and never visited a church here. The mistake was not to leave officially. Apparently there are laws on the books that give recognised churches access to some government records and the right to enforce their taxes. I had to unregister with the government so I would be exempt from tithing. Got a very sad letter from the catholic church right after, and just recently another one "We were sad to see you go, but since it's been a while, maybe you would like to come back?". Like some spiritual netflix or something, that is trying to reel me back in. Really left a bad taste in my mouth the whole thing.
@@brenateviReligion is not a business, nor a service. It's a way of life. Christians are encouraged to be generous and practice giving as part of their day to day life, and this includes giving in order to support your local church, which most of the time only manages to support itself through the donations of the congregation.
This was an awesome vid! I love that you ask such open ended questions to things many Christians may not have thought twice about. I think it’s a fine enough rule to tithe annually to your church, but I like some of the other methods/purposes of tithes you addressed. Seems like how much and where it goes can fluctuate based on circumstance and need, which I think is appropriate. Great job.
The Old Testament gave a percentage that was to be given, 10%. The New Testament says to give based on your heart. It also doesn't say it must be given to the church (as in the church you attend) sense churches back in the day were far more nebulous so giving could be more abstract.
I developed an affinity for: "Listening to this Channel Host's excellent speaking voice + perfect Voice and Diction" ... and appreciate his ethical intellect and works.
"Protestant denominations are all over the place." That's funny. But also kinda the point of Protestants. It's easy for modern Western people to forget that religion and government were the same thing for so long.
1/60 per month is actually 22% per annum. You need to get a better credit card if you think that rate is attractive! (1 + 1/60)^12 = 1.2194 or .2194 increase or 22% interest per year
People here in the south are wild, insisting on tithing 10% so their mega church can get more mega, meanwhile they're in debt, smh. I'm thankful to Dave Ramsey for the initial financial advice, but thankfully, I moved on quickly, since he is seemingly incapable of giving financial advice independent of his bonkers beliefs.
As for the general issue of taxation, it ought to be clear that ANY tax on productive value is destructive, and that we should, instead, be taxing the spending by any institution entrusted with money by investors expecting a return. Such a tax would be, in modern terms, a public company expense tax, or PCET for short.
God doesn't need money, but the people working within the various ministries within churches like charities and so on also need money to sustain themselves somehow. God doesn't need our money, no, but God likes people to be generous and willing to support each other.
Mark - I am surprised that you did not mention Malachi 3:10, which I have understood to be the only verse in any part of the Bible which seems to say that tithing is a way to “prove” God and God’s blessings. Perhaps unpacking Malachi 3:10 is a topic for another video?
I was brought up a Christian, had a painful breakup at age 18, spent 20+ years as a convinced materialist, and now.... Well, I don't self-identify as "new age", but it the term captures the gist of it. During all that, I guess my attitude has been to give according to my means. I never had much money, so I could only donate pittance to charity. Like, I donated a pittance to the charity supported by this fundraiser. But hey, it's something. And I'm thinking that the woman in the example, just at the beginning should be the recipient of charity, not the donor. If we expect the poor to give to charity, who the heck are they suppose to support? And the pastor in that segment. As I said, I don't think I can rightly call myself Christian nowadays. But I can't help thinking. "When Josh himself was about the be tortured to death, he healed the ear of the guy coming to take him away. But when he ran into people like YOU, he responded with physical assault."
Given the Christian "explanation" that the "moral" laws of the OT continue but the "ritual" ones don't, how does tithing as an obligation to the church survive? It seems like that should squarely fall into the "ritual" camp.
The idea that "tithing" applies to a Christian church is a modern innovation. I don't think there is any evidence from the New Testament or early Christian history that it was applied to donations to churches, or really any giving. Unfortunately, it has been jumped on as a fund-raising tool by greedy pastors with way too much power and influence, taking advantage of the unquestioning obedience of their audiences.
you're right , good reasoning . you can sort out denominations to see their fruits with that criteria and which one follow their theology more consistently. After all , if one of them is right , well they have to be consistant in their explanation.
@@Rakkoonn I believe the ones in Germany that get their income with the help of the taxing infrastructure get some percent - I *think* less than 10% - of the income tax, or something along those lines. Which is *a lot* less than 10% of the income.
Three priest are talking about tithes and how they handle the money. One says he draws a line on the floor and throws the money in the air , to the heavens. What lands on one side is god’s ,what lands on the other is the priest’s. The second priest says he does much the same thing except he draws a small circle and stands in the middle. In the circle his, out side god’s. The third priest says he too throws the money in the air. “God takes what he wants . The rest is mine.”😂
It’s has an economic function too especially in American denominations, when a congregation leaves en masse and maybe develop their own church of faith, they may loose the financial support of a bigger institution thereby relying more so on tithes
Tithing was an Old Testament obligation that was incumbent on the Jews under the Law of Moses. Christians are dispensed from the obligation of tithing ten percent of their incomes, but not from the obligation to help the Church. The key to understanding how God wants us to give to the Church is found in 1 Corinthians 16:2, "On the first day of the week [Sunday] each of you should set aside whatever he can afford," And in 2nd Corinthians 9:5-8, “Consider this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each must do as already determined without sadness or compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. Moreover, God is able to make every grace abundant for you, so that in all things, always having all you need, you may have an abundance for every good work.” To paraphrase: God doesn't demand a fixed amount of money from us; he wants us to give from the heart. If people are forced by their church to give a certain percent of their income, that's extortion. If they give freely and cheerfully the amount they are able and comfortable with, that's a gift.
The 10% was a tax to pay for stuff paid by taxes. Today we pay taxes to pay for stuff paid by taxes (much more than 10% btw.). So if you want and are able to give, please do, but don't feel pressured to do so.
I don’t think any Protestants say you are condemned if you do not tithe. I know in my church, the expectation is that you give 10%. I don’t agree with tithing so I don’t. But I do give occasionally, maybe to the church which gives a fair amount away or to friends in trouble.
The Church I attended does ask for tithing - and they show us where the money goes. Most of it goes into the community. Which I really like. But I do have to agree, big churches abuse the system that’s made to give to those who are most in need
The tithing law was made for the Temple and the Levite class. The Temple is gone. Pastors and megachurches hang on to the tithing law because it's how they fund their grift. I can't even count the amount of horseshit sermons that condemns those that don't give. In the New Testament, you are exhorted to give as much as you want or can.
@@smileytownSF Wow! You believe anyone with the title of "pastor" should be given a blind eye, as it is impossible for them to grift! Any position of authority has been and will be abused. Don't be naiive.
Thanks for these videos! I appreciate the effort and scholarship that goes into each one and I love how you teach religion without judgement or taking sides. It has become part of my Sunday morning routine to watch your channel.
Knowing the sponsor upfront (and seeing a tenuous relationship to the subject of the video) I felt like I was about to hear a segue to the ad reading every minute :v
I went to Catholic schools from Pre-K to 12th grade. I remember receiving a box on the first day of school. Inside the box were envelopes dated for every Sunday for the year and had your name on the envelope. You would be called into the principal's office Monday if your envelope was not seen the Sunday. So I would say that tithing was mandatory, at least in the schools I attended.
In my country Catholic schools are often private organisations so you pay monthly ,depending on your socio economic situation you can maybe get the government subsidies a part of the price but I'm not sure.
In civilised societies today we have agreed to fulfil at least some of our obligations to the poor through the State. Therefore, the obligation to tithe for the benefit of widows and orphans, and other disadvantaged people, is fulfilled by *willingly* paying those taxes that support social security.
I still find it strange that the reality of how the bible came together is not more widely known and taught. The new testament is a small and limited, chosen collection of what were considered "Christian" writings from the time. The writings were chosen by a select group of high-ranking people and they would have brought their own biases and socio-cultural leanings when deciding what books qualified.
@@maxttk97 I am a regular watcher of the channel and enjoy the content so don't jump to conclusions. Neither do I think there is any benefit in hiding truth or reality !!
@@maxttk97 I am making perfect sense and if you seek people who agree with you or think that it makes you right you should probably comment elsewhere !!
“Should we follow this random rule from Leviticus? I mean, we don’t follow any of the other random rules from Deuteronomy or Leviticus, but this one could make the church a lot of money!”
Greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself and love your God. Giving is to come from a jouful heart. God has no desire of a resentful giver.
Please do video on the Philippines' Iglesia ni Cristo (Church of Christ) where this practice is obligated by the leaders of said church. I have coworkers who belong in this denomination and when I ask them with regards to tithing, they always say it's "what you can only afford/not mandatory". Yet I've read lots of Reddit posts saying otherwise, I've seen breakdowns of payment paid from childhood to adulthood of required amounts. BTW it's also a church where block voting is practiced. Whoever the leaders choose to vote, the members are obliged to blindly follow.
As a Kenyan living in Baringo, giving such funds to the church is ill-advised. Most are greed-oriented and a very small portion of the sum will reach the poor. Most of it will be embezzled by the churches.
Having familiarised myself with some essential works on welfare studies, I must note that in Europe (my research included England, Germany and Russia but across the Christian world differences were not significant) local parishes were providing all the social security for the community, not the government. That was the case up until the Industrial revolution. Giving a tinth used to be a question of contributing to your community, not some spiritual practice or moral training of charitability.
2 Corinthians 9:7 "Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver". Give not because of command or law, but give because that is what you have decided in your heart. God does not need or want your money especially if you're struggling or hard-hearted, for God loves a cheerful giver.
Your taxation in any welfare state is more than enough of a tithe for assisting the poor. The separation of church and state isn't really accounted for.
Is that true though? Regardless of if contemporary taxes should cover assisting the poor (they should). I’m not sure that stance is backed up biblically. around the time of Christ days, Jewish people were living under a Roman state that taxed them, and presumably still abiding the religious obligation of tithing. It would be strange that a big change like that wasn’t written down enough times to survive, like “well, the Roman’s occupy and tax us now, so no tithing”. But I tend to agree that separation of church and state meant something very different.
Keeping in mind the overlap between the Hellenistic kingdoms & the development of the Biblical texts, and the Roman period and the same also, it;s also important to remember the tithe is also an important element of the rligion of these two, also. The tropaion, the battlefield trophies mentioned frequently by Thucydides, is one such tithe/first-fruit offering. Even one's body was subject to tithing--you men, once old enough to start shaving, would offering that facial hair as a form of tithe, marking their entrance into manhood. And this reminds me, also, that religion in both the Ancient Near East & the Mediterranean world, was more than just personal, but also communal, echoing the demands the early Christians' refusal to sacrifice to the Imperial cult was in turn endangering the safety of the Empire, because refusing to do so angered the gods, & that would lead in turn to the potential destruction of the state.
Could there please be a video explaining why there were more polytheistic religions back in the day regardless of the country of origin ( Aztec, Egyptian, Chinese...) ? And obviously, more monotheistic religions as some point in time? Are religions trends ? Because There was less communication between people ? .. Thank you very much
Monotheism arose from nationalist propaganda of Biblical authors to prevent Israelites from worshiping national deities of neighbouring nations. Yahweh was originally one of the 70 sons of supreme god El.
I live in Utah and there is a stark distinction of Christian and non Christians. The money in the church here goes to those are in their group and only a fraction seems to trickle down to those actually in need.
Actually over 2 billion per year goes towards humanitarian aid and needs globally and those in need such as homeless (that’s why California) and other states will send them to Utah
@SportPhilosophies exactly, I would just end with that personal experience is nice however data and reliable information is more important since personal experience is very limited and much more faulty because of its inherent limitation and biases such as larger entity has money= greedy corrupt corporation where the top benifits and those in need do not which is not the case in the lds church based off of the data
The lds church does do humanitarian aid, but until 2022, none was from tithing. When you do tithing you can also add money explicitely for humanitarian aid, which does go to that. The church counts fast offerings as part of how much it gives but fast offering only go from members, to other members, who are tithed, do its hard to say it counts in the same way.
QUESTION: governance at the time was supported by these tithes (and conquest). Governance WAS religion. Modern government saw the charity work, education, and social security the various religions managed - and wanted it. Today, therefore, since government’s are mostly separate from religions and have replaced most of the fictions, is tithing to be considered PAID by taxes?
It's interesting how tithing from earned wages carries no biblical precedent yet it's frequently presented as a biblical mandate. Nowhere in the Bible were Gentiles commanded to tithe at all and nowhere in the Bible were Israelites commanded to tithe from their monetary earnings. I agree with Dave on a lot of things. Just not his interpretation of biblical tithing.
Tithing is simply another form of charity. Charity is what matters, not giving to some centralized church or temple. Give unto the gods what you deem them worthy of and to the poor what you can.
Does tithing reflect a divine command or a personal negotiation with faith and circumstances? If it's the latter, how do we reconcile the spiritual essence of generosity with modern financial realities? Let’s discuss!
Today's version of tithing from earned wages carries no biblical precedent. So, no, there's no biblical mandate for anyone to tithe today. To the point of generosity, biblical, compulsory tithing wasn't an act of generosity. It was like a tax, only not accepted as money. Concerning financial realities, sure, a church must have money to survive. This can be accomplished through discretionary, inspired, sacrificial giving. There's nothing wrong with discretionary tithing, money or otherwise, to a church or otherwise. The problem arises when today's version of tithing is taught as an ongoing, monetary, universal mandate. This idea burdens the less fortunate, and they are the ones we're supposed to be helping, not extorting from them. They, us, and all are free to give, not bound to pay.
Send cash directly to families in need, no strings attached: www.givedirectly.org/religion
❤
Is this the platform talked about in Cold Fusion?
Hi there, ReligionForBreakfast. Can you please make a video on Balinese Hinduism and how it differs from Hinduism in India. Thank you very much.
Wait, so the tithing mandate is in Duteronomy? Doesn't that make it part of the Old Testament covenant that was overturned when Jesus died on the cross?
@@ekmalsukarno2302 Yes! I'd love to see this
"Ironically enough for Dave Ramsey it's basically a form of ancient social security"
actually laughed at that line
Christian conservatives 🤡🤡
I don't know anything about Dave Ramsey beyond what this guy just told me but this quip didn't logically address Ramsey's concern. Ramsey didn't see social security as income since people put more of their income into it then they'll get out. That the Israelites collected a tithe and used it for social security has no bearing on Ramsey's question as to whether or not SS is income, and therefore tithable as such. It seems the guy making the video had a political point to make that resulted in a non sequitur.
@@scripturethroughancienteye1509video guy also mentioned Ramsey is anti social security. You missed that part
I'm not a conservative, but generally their complaints are about government safety nets. Your local church providing services for the poor would not only be acceptable, but the preferred method.
@GodofGrunts They prefer it this way, because it makes them look good. And because it gives them leverage over the people they are "helping".
Growing up my family struggled to pay bills, lived in a tiny dirty house where I shared a bedroom with three other siblings. There were many times we went hungry with no food in the house or with no electricity or water waiting until Friday for my dad’s paycheck. In spite of this my parents always gave at least 10% to the church, which insisted to always be the very first thing paid. The pastor’s family lived much better than us, receiving not only tithes but numerous gifts and favors and free labor for things like cleaning and home renovations. To make things worse they taught my parents that receiving welfare was sinful and my parents refused to apply for food stamps or accept any other kind of assistance except through the church.
Man, that's abuse in the name of religion. I hope you don't lose your spirituality.
What kind of church was it? A small pentecostal church?
Judgement is in His hands, not ours...
...but I think that pastor's gonna hate where he ends up.
I hope this has caused you to reconsider religion. If you look around, you will see there are many pastors/priests who act in the same way. But if you still want to believe in god, you do not need the middle man: you can relate directly.
@@annepoitrineau5650 A relationship with God is essential. But you're literally giving the opposite advice as Paul. We are the body of Christ, and we shouldn't seek to isolate ourselves. It's troubling to see the wolves in sheep clothing, but you shouldn't abandon the church because of Judas.
Regarding tithing animals: It is worth noting that sacrifices were always MALE animals, not because males were holier but because you only needed one or two rams to keep increasing the flock. It is reasonable to assume that tithe animals were likewise extraneous males and would pose no real burden on the owner.
Maybe their breeding was also encouraged, given the requirements of perfection for each sacrifice.
A sheep/ram could still provide wool, and an oxygen can be used as a beast of burden.
But maybe having too many males around would be troublesome any way if they compete and fight each other a lot.
It's probably good to keep at least 1 extra male animal in case of injury or disease
My Mum's rural church still accepts chicken, goats, milk and grain as contributions
Please explain how numbers 19:2 fits your statement
@ - A very rare animal raised from birth for a complex ritual that could be performed only when such an animal was available. Nowhere near the same thing as a tithe or regular sacrifice.
I grew up Mormon where pretty much everyone pays 10% or more of what they make. Boy when i grew up and left the church and found out they were a multi billionaire church i was so mad. I remember people in my congregation who really struggled to put food on the table but they still gave that 10% every month
@SportPhilosophies no man they have 100 billion dollars. The money goes to their money pile and investments, don't be delusional
That's the point where you stop giving
@SportPhilosophies it would be nice if they published their financials for transparency. That way instead of having faith that the money was spent wisely you could just see where it went.
Tithing is not the churches sole source of income. There are all sorts of avenues through which a 401c3 can finance their cause…
For example… Deseret Book is a commercial enterprise, and while it is owned by an influential Mormon family, it is not owned by the church directly.
Because Deseret Book publishes and/or distributes so much promotional material for the church, they are eligible for tax free grants from the church. And The family that owns Deseret Book can pay tax deductible “tithing” to the church…. Give and take.
Heber J Grant was the President/Prophet that set that one up, selling the business to the man that married one of his daughters. I could go on, but that would be a waste of time.
Do with your money what you will.
@SportPhilosophies have you SEEN how the LDS General Authorities live and what is within their reach due to their wealth? And not just them, the intelligensia running the chuch corporation are also very well paid. That's from tithing money. this fairy tale that it all goes to charity or maintenence is only partly true...they sin by omission when they fail to report the salaries of the "Apostleship." its a money generating machine masquerading as a religion.
Three religious leaders, ( I'm not specifying which religions ), were talking about how they deal with the tithing in the plate each week.
The first said " I draw a circle on the floor, about 6 inches. I then throw the money into the air, the money in the circle goes to me, the rest to god."
The 2nd said " I also draw the circle and throw the money but the money in the circle goes to god, the rest to me. "
The 3rd said " I throw the money in the air. What god wants he keeps."
Oy vey!
The first i think is Orthodox since they don't require their folks to pay tithe
The second is either Catholic/Protestant, they insist 10% of their folks' income
The third is Islam, all their money based on donation, encouraging their folks to give the money/stuff directly to the poor without the institution involvement
@@kadaltokek3953 The version was ALL christian and they were all going very well for themselves.
So they are all christian or all muslim or all whatever, it is a observation on how little honesty is in that position.
Are we talking coins or paper money lol
@@Numbabu coins bounce and roll out of the circle, paper flutters away from the circle. does it matter? ;-)
As a member of the Jewish community I know a lot of poor families who get all their meat for the year off of the tithes of other family members. In the Jewish faith it is much more of a local social security if you notice a neighbor in need give your 10% to help fund their wedding or buy them groceries.
Just bigotry from the first page
if tithes are, at least in part, supposed to support the poor then if someone is struggling to make ends meet they should be getting some of that tithe money given to them to support them in their hardship. Not desperately trying to negotiate down how much they have to pay the church
The problem is that these megachurches have a very liberal definition of what counts as helping the poor. Preaching or giving out pamphlets can count as “helping the poor” because they’re helping “spiritually.” Or it can be giving merch with phone numbers and websites. Because hey, you’re “giving to the poor.” Nobody said you’re giving direct cash to the poor. This is also how secular high-overhead scam charities work, like Kids Wish.
Ideally churches should not require people in need to tithe wt all.
I go to a pentecostal church that does tithing and let me tell you for months I have not tithed because I knew money was not asked for by God to the israelites.
I believe by choice and by grace we give money to support the needy in the church and to help the poor outside of the church.
the tithes were supposed to be to god, do you hate god? just pay the 10% and don't ask about it
@@jcavs9847 I would if the commandment hath said give your tithe meant for the levites, widows,poor and strangers as Money for Pastors and for the "church".
Mind you Church is not the physical building we use to gather but we are.
Also what storehouse we have today to put our animals, fruits,wine and oil?
I do agree that we should tithe just as our father Jacob in Gen 28:20-22
By that I mean voluntary, I am not saying you should vow as he vowed but as you desire to, do.
Some people think if they pay their tithes ie give up their money they will be blessed. It is good to gender kindness with your money. However the moment you show off and boast giving your money to God instead of doing it in secret with sincerity of heart and obedience to his awe; is a moment I can not take delight in.
I have heard people said we are not under the law but bring up Malachi 3:8-12 to support today's tithing.
I understand your argument but you have to gather more than just what you presented in order to persuade believers like me on modern tithing.
One thing that gets left out of the conversation about tithing is that the examples of one-tenth given are not total income but specific forms of income. The bits in Levicitus and Deuteronomy are referring to income from livestock and agriculture, something you'd really only have as a landowner and not the servant of a landowner, tenant farmer, or someone selling their labor. Exodus 30 seems to set a minimum of a half-shekel a year (like, a half day's minimum wage a year).
~19:20
Kudos on the sponsor “give directly” I’ve thought but never been able to articulate the problem with sending items/specific aid overseas
If you send a ton of shoes you put the local shoe maker out of business. If you give a family money they will spend that money on the shoes which will support the local shoemaker who will then spend that money in his community. Much better solution
Give it to the poor, not the church. I've witnessed too much greed in the churches where I've been to trust them with money.
Same
sadly true, too often. One must use one's discretion. There are churches where tithes buy the pastor a personal jet, and then there are churches which, upon getting $3000, immediately decides to use $1500 of it to fund a local non-profit's annual day of volunteer home and yard work for seniors and those in poverty, another $500 to a local outreach for debit cards to help low-income and homeless people buy gasoline, and earmark the remaining $1000 for future community opportunities, similar to the opportunity they took 3 months before to provide a cabinet to the food pantry at a local school to deter vermin. If a church can't produce minutes and financial reports telling you where the money is going, don't give to them.
From where I live, the local catholic parish specifies the purpose for the monetary collection every time they do one and giving is only voluntary. And they are also transparent with how much money they collect and what did they spend it on. I wish all churches, catholic or not, could do the same.
And NEVER give it to a megachurch. You’re just buying the pastor a new jacuzzi for his Lear jet.
Catholic churches are the best charities
It’s a temple tax under the Old Covenant, not a mandate for contemporary Christians. We are called to be cheerful and gracious givers, givers who exceed a set amount. Giving unconditionally to the oppressed and needy first. Modern Evangelicals have turned this ancient practice into a grift, a way to fund their turgid megachurches and overpaid “pastors.” Thanks for this rational presentation.
When the laws were given, the nation of Isreal were a theocratic Bronze-Age society wandering in the desert. A portion of the nation, the tribe of Levi was portioned off to do religious and governing duties. We call those taxes today, because it's the government that does the administrative portion of what the Levittes did. We all grew up with the "pay to Caesar what is owed to Caesar and pay to God what is owed to God' but let's face it, the Christian faith is terrible at explaining what that means. If the parable had any logical semblance, the next question would have been the disciples asking Jesus for clarification if they should be paying 20%, 10 to God and 10 to Caesar. If anything, since the Church serves no significant administrative purpose in this modern age, the tithe should be re-apportioned accordingly....
@@stuntmonkey00 In context, the pay to ceasar what is owed to ceasar is jesus telling the pharisees to pay their taxes while evading their blasphemy allegations, whil give to god what is his due means your mind and soul, which, in christian doctrine, god made.
@@mvalthegamer2450 So, the pharisees asked Jesus if they should pay Roman taxes, and Jesus said 'yes', but he felt people expected a little more from him and added some unnecessary words. Thankfully you did see through it.
sure thing buddy. Did god reveal this to you?
@@mvalthegamer2450 Well yes; we all learned that as the clever way of how Jesus evaded a trap question, but as i said, it's written as a work of literature. Story-wise, the episode ends there, roll credits. But if that happened as it would in actual life, his disciples would have been a) Great answer, that showed them! b) But wait, does that mean....
A rich dude insisting that a poor person tithe is just insane. And you hit a nail on the head. He finds an excuse to tithe as little as possible. If he actually tithes at all.
I don't have an issue with tithing as a concept itself; if you're able to give money regularly to those less fortunate without causing yourself financial difficulties, then I think that's great. Doing it as part of an organised group could offer efficiencies, assuming they use the money in good faith. I don't even have a blanket issue with it going to the church; if someone considers their church to be a valuable community space and it, for example, needs major repairs then I don't see an issue with those who are able to contributing towards its upkeep via tithing. What I take issue with is religious groups using it as a cudgel by making people feel they have to give when they can't afford it, give more than is reasonable, gatekeeping spiritual access (i.e. the Mormons), and/or using it to benefit only the religious group rather than the needy. I wish we could always trust religious groups to manage tithing responsibly, but unfortunately I don't think we can. 😓
Well said
Exactly. Despite being an atheist I give around 10-15% of my income to non-profits, no doubt thanks to Peter Singer. It should be a moral obligation to those of high stature, but not for a poor woman suffering from debt.
100%
I only trust groups I'm a member of. I get to vote on the budget every year and see how that's spent. I actually think our pastor is severely underpaid for a leadership position.
nice essay buddy. turns out no one cares about what you think about tithing. You're not a scholar, nor a prophet, nor a god. Why did you comment this? Schizophrenic?
Restaurants and Churches: voluntary tipping is mandatory!!!
yeah but at least the restaurant servers actually need the money
In America. Remember the rest of the world? Hi, it's us and we don't depend heavily on tips and still call ourselves a first world country. But you enjoy your freedom.
I have never been molested in a Restaurant though..
@@unbindingthedevil Who needs tips, when you've got indulgences and benefactor bequeathments.
When covid hit, and I (with numerous serious co-morbidities) had to self-isolate, I started saving my tithes so I could "keep up" with it...during that time however, I ended up having to go on disability, retiring from all work completely, and my SS check is paltry, and as it was money I'd *already* tithed from, I couldn't really see cutting it even further...
...but as soon as I felt safe going out again, my church I'd been going to was still not having public services...the core congregation were still doing a conference call every Sunday, so I began donating my saved tithes directly to the many homeless I have encountered. I know it helps them immensely, and it is the proper use of that money. Any gifts I get, well, that too gets tithed to whoever I first see who is in need.
Having prayed on this deeply, I have felt that this is what He wants me to continue.
Social security recipient here.
All Americans pay into social security. It is your money. Don’t let anyone tell you it’s “unearned income.” You worked for that money.
And if you had to go through the disability process, you’ve worked for it twice.
It's a good system. You must pay in, and they decide when and how much you get.
If im to give 10% of my wealth, it’ll be to those who i know need it. Certainly not the church pastor whos getting his third vehicle this year.
Maybe his third jet.
I'm eating this video while watching my breakfast
same, but it's a late breakfast in the evening!
Maybe its a very very early breakfast
@@ay2257 I like that idea😂😂😂
I can't recall any mention in the New Testament about a 10% donation requirement. Instead, it emphasizes giving according to one's ability, highlighting the importance of cheerful givers. Although there are instances of individuals selling their land to contribute to charity, personal contributions were meant to be based on what one could afford, with special blessings for those who give from their need.
What about Jesus's advice for that 'imperfect' rich dude, telling him to let go all of his possession?
@@lastyhopper2792 To the best of my knowledge he never let go of his wealth. There are many instances where he talks to people but really only 1 instance like this which occurred in 3 books.
I believe he went away in disappointment, he was eager to please, claimed his virtues but left once he was told to sell his lands or at least I don't recall further mentions of him after.
I love my Pastor, before I went to the church I asked to meet him and I asked him many questions for over 2 hours. Let me tell you that man is truly a man of God. He doesn’t believe in tithing but in giving. When you set a “giving” base line it becomes a responsibility and does not come out of love but out of duty. He’s never asked for a “tithe” and God has grown that church so much. Yes some Pastors will drill that into Gods people but won’t do anything for the community. My Pastor has a benevolent offering for us to get things for the feeding ministry and an offering for the church but never a tithe. I’ve learn more from him in 2 years than in the rest of my life under other Pastors.
For many years I faithfully gave 10% of my and my wife' salaries to the church until I woke up and discovered the truth, I am not mad, just sad it took me this long, but indeed the truth set us free.
Organized religion is by far the BEST at promoting, marketing, selling (swindling and SCAMMING) people.
@@rivertonhigh-v4t Using guilt and fear.
Well, how are these so called megachurch or prosperity gospel preachers going to make money then?
If the people were to realize the truth and stop giving money to these people, then these preachers would not be able to fund their church and business.
As someone who read the Bible, tithing was about giving a tenth of the firstfruits of harvest and other things, not money. Yet many of these preachers have twisted the concept of tithing and made it about giving money and whatever is valuable to the church.
Also, the Bible itself says to give generously without compulsion and that whatever you give should go to those in need and that the Lord "blessing you with more" was meant for doing more works of giving, not using for oneself.
Yet, many of these preachers pressure, manipulate, and even gaslight those in the congregation to give their money to them and their church
You should be mad. They are scamming poor people through psychological manipulatuon tactics into a life time subscription contract.
Torah tithes:
- first fruits, to the temple (percentage not specified),
- offering to the priests /kohanim (2%),
- first tithe, to the levites (10%),
- second tithe, to the temple (10%),
- poor tithe, to be given to poor people (10%).
Agricultural commandments to leave a part of produce to the poor and strangers:
- corners of the fields (percentage not specified, but jewish tradition says at least 2% of the crops),
- gleanings (percentage not specified),
- forgotten sheaves (percentage not specified),
- grapes and produce not ripe at the time of harvest,
- grape and produce which falls down during the harvest.
Sabbath year /shmita, which is every seventh year:
- no agriculture is to be practiced, and all the produce which grows on its own is for the poor and strangers, one is to eat only from stored foods,
- on this year also all debts are to be forgiven.
Jubilee year, which is after seven sabbath years, ie every 50 years:
- all slaves, captives, and prisoners are to be liberated,
- land redistribution,
- no agriculture on this year either (so along with the seventh sabbath year that means two consecutive years of no agriculture), but what grows on it's own can be eaten by anyone.
In the NT, John the Baptist and Jesus go much further and say you should give away your wealth, and not have more than you need. According to Jesus you can't get saved unless you do that.
Weird how Evangelicals and other conservative Christians ignore all of this.
Nice breakdown of it. Even better pfp. Enrico is my homeboy
One of the few intellectual responses I've ever seen with very poignant references. People are too stuck in their institutionalized mentality of supporting the 'church' even though the church isn't a building or an organization.
A bronze-age society which could survive just straight up doing no agriculture every seventh year must have been incredibly wealthy. Do we know from archeology if this law was actually followed in practice?
Slaves captives and prisoners.
Slavery detected. Free on year 50.
Everyone will ignore whatever negative points of their own faith, not other's faith, that's what faith is meant to, to ignore facts.
This video is just on time! I’ve been doing a deep dive into charities to work out how to give both tzedakah and maaser
💸❣
Thank you for sponsoring your video with Give Directly
Something consistent in most branches of the Abrahamic faiths is the idea that no law supersedes one's health. Someone in the States making $2000 a month is very far below the poverty line, and I would say that giving when you already don't have enough for yourself and your family is not mandatory because it endangers your health. Giving that $200 might as well be the woman giving her two coins to the temple for how much a tithe is worth on poverty. I would also argue that the same applies to secular law and that necessities should be freely given to all, but that's another story.
Dave Ramsey has his figures wrong for FICA/SSI. If you work consistently for 43 years and start at $15 minimum wage and get a 3% raise every year, then you will contribute $160K in FICA payment (6% of wages). Your employer will contribute the same amount. So if you get $1500 per month in SSI, you have almost 9 years of payments discounting annual COLA adjustments, on your contributions and an additional 9 years on your employer's contributions. The money in the Social Security Trust Fund also grows annually, but slower than the stock market. So you have depleted your "account" at age 81 or so (65 + 16). At age 65, you have a reasonable expectation of living an additional 16 years.
This is a simplification of the realities of social security. The social security system was set up to address the problem of elder poverty. I personally believe that SSI/SSDI is income and that a portion of that gross income should be directed to charities, non profits, and churches. Same for RMD from IRA's and 401K's.
Please do not use "SSI" when you mean "Social Security benefits". It drives me crazy as a tax practitioner when people do this.There is a government program called "Supplemental Security Income" that has "SSI" as an acronym and is completely separate from Social Security. At least at my current job there are no clients on (the actual) SSI, but it was very common when I was a volunteer for doing poor people's taxes. Part of my training for that was to make sure to understand the difference between the two, because we knew there would be people who used "SSI" when meaning "Social Security benefits", because that's just what has for some reason worked its way into society. I'm doing my best to try to stop people from doing it whenever I see it happen.
@@stevenglowacki8576Well your incoming administration intends doing away with the whole shebang anyway, so it'll shortly be moot...
If one loses money on stocks, is one permitted to tithe negatively & take money out of the offering?
🙌
I think you missed the entire point of the video, the reason, and the opportunity to give in the first place.
Most USA person comment ever! Lol
@AntwanRSmith like a true christian 😂
By the power invested in me by the cult I have started and by the authority which lies in the power of my wearing of many long thobes, scarfs, keffiyahs, and vestments I pronounce the allowance of you to remove moneys out of the offerings according to the losses you incur during your trading of stocks and bonds.
Amazing video as always!
The Sumerians at 4:00 give new meaning to the phrase "he zigged when he should have zagged".
From what I understand, tithing in the Catholic world depends on where you are.
I recently moved from one very catholic nation to another and was surprised that I now had to pay tithing.
Emphasis on "had to", even though I'm an atheist and never visited a church here. The mistake was not to leave officially. Apparently there are laws on the books that give recognised churches access to some government records and the right to enforce their taxes. I had to unregister with the government so I would be exempt from tithing. Got a very sad letter from the catholic church right after, and just recently another one "We were sad to see you go, but since it's been a while, maybe you would like to come back?". Like some spiritual netflix or something, that is trying to reel me back in.
Really left a bad taste in my mouth the whole thing.
What nation?
"Spiritual Netflix" is the best description of Religion ever.
Damn, which country?
@@brenateviReligion is not a business, nor a service. It's a way of life. Christians are encouraged to be generous and practice giving as part of their day to day life, and this includes giving in order to support your local church, which most of the time only manages to support itself through the donations of the congregation.
Shouldnt have moved somewhere that hates freedom
This was an awesome vid! I love that you ask such open ended questions to things many Christians may not have thought twice about. I think it’s a fine enough rule to tithe annually to your church, but I like some of the other methods/purposes of tithes you addressed. Seems like how much and where it goes can fluctuate based on circumstance and need, which I think is appropriate. Great job.
When you consider these patriarches had people under them, it's probably only ceos that need to tithe.
The Old Testament gave a percentage that was to be given, 10%.
The New Testament says to give based on your heart.
It also doesn't say it must be given to the church (as in the church you attend) sense churches back in the day were far more nebulous so giving could be more abstract.
I developed an affinity for: "Listening to this Channel Host's excellent speaking voice + perfect Voice and Diction"
... and appreciate his ethical intellect and works.
"Protestant denominations are all over the place." That's funny. But also kinda the point of Protestants.
It's easy for modern Western people to forget that religion and government were the same thing for so long.
1/60 per month is actually 22% per annum. You need to get a better credit card if you think that rate is attractive!
(1 + 1/60)^12 = 1.2194 or .2194 increase or 22% interest per year
22% is actually pretty good for a credit card, credit cards are just really bad is all.
"Opening an account at the bank of Ishtar." Definitely sounds like a euphemism for something.
People here in the south are wild, insisting on tithing 10% so their mega church can get more mega, meanwhile they're in debt, smh. I'm thankful to Dave Ramsey for the initial financial advice, but thankfully, I moved on quickly, since he is seemingly incapable of giving financial advice independent of his bonkers beliefs.
As for the general issue of taxation, it ought to be clear that ANY tax on productive value is destructive, and that we should, instead, be taxing the spending by any institution entrusted with money by investors expecting a return. Such a tax would be, in modern terms, a public company expense tax, or PCET for short.
I still don’t understand why God needs money to make church happen
He dosent. Give freely if you want. You wont be condemned if you dont
especially when the “human form of god” literally said to not even build churches. its almost like its a pyramid scheme
Even if I went to a church I couldn't in good conscience support the opulent lifestyle of the church. They don't need jets, mansions, and limos.
God doesn't need money, but the people working within the various ministries within churches like charities and so on also need money to sustain themselves somehow. God doesn't need our money, no, but God likes people to be generous and willing to support each other.
If God is all powerful, why doesn't he pony up to support his employees?
Mark - I am surprised that you did not mention Malachi 3:10, which I have understood to be the only verse in any part of the Bible which seems to say that tithing is a way to “prove” God and God’s blessings. Perhaps unpacking Malachi 3:10 is a topic for another video?
Same thought. Malachi 3:9 and 3:12
And if the rebuttal is, "What if it's a fake (mega) church with fake preachers?" then why not don't tithes there?
6:09 That's a 20% APR. Still better than most credit cards, but not by that much
And a damned lot higher than personal loans for people with decent credit scores.
I was brought up a Christian, had a painful breakup at age 18, spent 20+ years as a convinced materialist, and now....
Well, I don't self-identify as "new age", but it the term captures the gist of it.
During all that, I guess my attitude has been to give according to my means. I never had much money, so I could only donate pittance to charity. Like, I donated a pittance to the charity supported by this fundraiser. But hey, it's something.
And I'm thinking that the woman in the example, just at the beginning should be the recipient of charity, not the donor. If we expect the poor to give to charity, who the heck are they suppose to support?
And the pastor in that segment. As I said, I don't think I can rightly call myself Christian nowadays. But I can't help thinking. "When Josh himself was about the be tortured to death, he healed the ear of the guy coming to take him away. But when he ran into people like YOU, he responded with physical assault."
It's worth noting that time is money, so if you're unable to tithe fully you can always volunteer at the church to reduce their costs
By the way, I love your channel, and thank you always.
Given the Christian "explanation" that the "moral" laws of the OT continue but the "ritual" ones don't, how does tithing as an obligation to the church survive? It seems like that should squarely fall into the "ritual" camp.
The idea that "tithing" applies to a Christian church is a modern innovation. I don't think there is any evidence from the New Testament or early Christian history that it was applied to donations to churches, or really any giving. Unfortunately, it has been jumped on as a fund-raising tool by greedy pastors with way too much power and influence, taking advantage of the unquestioning obedience of their audiences.
you're right , good reasoning . you can sort out denominations to see their fruits with that criteria and which one follow their theology more consistently. After all , if one of them is right , well they have to be consistant in their explanation.
One word: MONEY...
Most churches don't require tithing for exactly that reason. Only some specific denominations do, especially the crazy prosperity theology ones.
@@Rakkoonn I believe the ones in Germany that get their income with the help of the taxing infrastructure get some percent - I *think* less than 10% - of the income tax, or something along those lines. Which is *a lot* less than 10% of the income.
Three priest are talking about tithes and how they handle the money. One says he draws a line on the floor and throws the money in the air , to the heavens. What lands on one side is god’s ,what lands on the other is the priest’s. The second priest says he does much the same thing except he draws a small circle and stands in the middle. In the circle his, out side god’s. The third priest says he too throws the money in the air. “God takes what he wants . The rest is mine.”😂
It’s has an economic function too especially in American denominations, when a congregation leaves en masse and maybe develop their own church of faith, they may loose the financial support of a bigger institution thereby relying more so on tithes
here's my two cents, if a church asks you give more than you're cheerful to give, it's a scam
Tithing was an Old Testament obligation that was incumbent on the Jews under the Law of Moses. Christians are dispensed from the obligation of tithing ten percent of their incomes, but not from the obligation to help the Church.
The key to understanding how God wants us to give to the Church is found in 1 Corinthians 16:2, "On the first day of the week [Sunday] each of you should set aside whatever he can afford,"
And in 2nd Corinthians 9:5-8, “Consider this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each must do as already determined without sadness or compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. Moreover, God is able to make every grace abundant for you, so that in all things, always having all you need, you may have an abundance for every good work.”
To paraphrase: God doesn't demand a fixed amount of money from us; he wants us to give from the heart. If people are forced by their church to give a certain percent of their income, that's extortion. If they give freely and cheerfully the amount they are able and comfortable with, that's a gift.
Fascinating stuff!
The 10% was a tax to pay for stuff paid by taxes. Today we pay taxes to pay for stuff paid by taxes (much more than 10% btw.).
So if you want and are able to give, please do, but don't feel pressured to do so.
How would Protestants reconcile mandatory tithing with not being able to earn salvation with good works, as mentioned in Ephesians 2:8-9?
I'm sure like everyone else they subordinate that to other passages they agree with more.
I don’t think any Protestants say you are condemned if you do not tithe. I know in my church, the expectation is that you give 10%. I don’t agree with tithing so I don’t. But I do give occasionally, maybe to the church which gives a fair amount away or to friends in trouble.
We are not in the old testament laws. New testament says give what you can, but with joy in your heart, not grudgingly.
The Church I attended does ask for tithing - and they show us where the money goes. Most of it goes into the community. Which I really like. But I do have to agree, big churches abuse the system that’s made to give to those who are most in need
Great video! I am a licensed investment advisor and am going to share this video with my friends.
The tithing law was made for the Temple and the Levite class. The Temple is gone. Pastors and megachurches hang on to the tithing law because it's how they fund their grift. I can't even count the amount of horseshit sermons that condemns those that don't give. In the New Testament, you are exhorted to give as much as you want or can.
If you think your pastor is a grifter, then the problem is with you.
@@smileytownSFmany pastors are grifters and that is a fact.
@@smileytownSF Wow! You believe anyone with the title of "pastor" should be given a blind eye, as it is impossible for them to grift! Any position of authority has been and will be abused. Don't be naiive.
Bro thinks pastors can't be evil@@smileytownSF
Apparently Priesthood's are extremely profitable not unlike Hollywood.💙
It's probably MORE profitable than Hollywood these days!
@@VJMorph...
And AI could be the end of both of those revenue streams.💙
Thanks for these videos! I appreciate the effort and scholarship that goes into each one and I love how you teach religion without judgement or taking sides. It has become part of my Sunday morning routine to watch your channel.
Knowing the sponsor upfront (and seeing a tenuous relationship to the subject of the video) I felt like I was about to hear a segue to the ad reading every minute :v
fear not, it doesn't come until 19:50 🙃
@givedirectly that's correct, and at that time I finally had closure :v
I went to Catholic schools from Pre-K to 12th grade. I remember receiving a box on the first day of school. Inside the box were envelopes dated for every Sunday for the year and had your name on the envelope. You would be called into the principal's office Monday if your envelope was not seen the Sunday. So I would say that tithing was mandatory, at least in the schools I attended.
Sure. Private institutions have the right to set whatever rules they want whether they're biblically supported or not.
In my country Catholic schools are often private organisations so you pay monthly ,depending on your socio economic situation you can maybe get the government subsidies a part of the price but I'm not sure.
In civilised societies today we have agreed to fulfil at least some of our obligations to the poor through the State. Therefore, the obligation to tithe for the benefit of widows and orphans, and other disadvantaged people, is fulfilled by *willingly* paying those taxes that support social security.
I still find it strange that the reality of how the bible came together is not more widely known and taught. The new testament is a small and limited, chosen collection of what were considered "Christian" writings from the time. The writings were chosen by a select group of high-ranking people and they would have brought their own biases and socio-cultural leanings when deciding what books qualified.
I thunk this channel disproved that you are saying about the meeting of what to add and not to add in the canon.
@@maxttk97 I am a regular watcher of the channel and enjoy the content so don't jump to conclusions. Neither do I think there is any benefit in hiding truth or reality !!
@@EamonCoyle Bart Ehrman agree with me. And you are making zero sense.
@@maxttk97 I am making perfect sense and if you seek people who agree with you or think that it makes you right you should probably comment elsewhere !!
@EamonCoyle Do you even know who Bart Erhman is?
“Should we follow this random rule from Leviticus? I mean, we don’t follow any of the other random rules from Deuteronomy or Leviticus, but this one could make the church a lot of money!”
In the New Testament they gave ALL that they have to one another.
Look at Ananias and Sephira..
It's a heart giving. Give as you are led.
Greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself and love your God. Giving is to come from a jouful heart. God has no desire of a resentful giver.
One comes before the other
Well said. Once the giver starts seeing it as a dreaded obligation, it no longer glorifies God. At that point it is simply yet another tax to be paid.
Please do video on the Philippines' Iglesia ni Cristo (Church of Christ) where this practice is obligated by the leaders of said church. I have coworkers who belong in this denomination and when I ask them with regards to tithing, they always say it's "what you can only afford/not mandatory". Yet I've read lots of Reddit posts saying otherwise, I've seen breakdowns of payment paid from childhood to adulthood of required amounts.
BTW it's also a church where block voting is practiced. Whoever the leaders choose to vote, the members are obliged to blindly follow.
Got a Dave Ramsey ad before this video 😂 probably not the best use of ad spend for him.
When I see Ken Copelad, Joel Osteen and Creflo Dollar tithe a tenth of their income to an actual charitable institution, I'll consider it 😅
Greaaaat video. When you asked if we should give god our capital gains on stocks or something, too funny.
@16:00 was Mt Gerazim one of those tithing places/sanctuaries?
Great channel, congrats on all your success.
1.6% monthly interest rate is insane, i know the US had it but but this is extreme.... Anything above 10% per year should be illigal
As a Kenyan living in Baringo, giving such funds to the church is ill-advised.
Most are greed-oriented and a very small portion of the sum will reach the poor.
Most of it will be embezzled by the churches.
Imagine any billionaire tithing ten percent of their income 🤣
I’m Judaism we interpreted it as donate 10% to charity, not to the synagogue.
Why doesn't God give to the poor, after all he owns everything.
the greater question is why you don't do that , after all , even if you are limited , you can do what you can
@planteruines5619 because, I didn't design the system, he did.
Why should I fix his mistake?
Well...he likes Elon best. 🙄
The romans required ten percent as well. Judeah was a nation state, so maybe 10 percent to support a church is a flexible sum.
Having familiarised myself with some essential works on welfare studies, I must note that in Europe (my research included England, Germany and Russia but across the Christian world differences were not significant) local parishes were providing all the social security for the community, not the government. That was the case up until the Industrial revolution. Giving a tinth used to be a question of contributing to your community, not some spiritual practice or moral training of charitability.
2 Corinthians 9:7
"Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver".
Give not because of command or law, but give because that is what you have decided in your heart. God does not need or want your money especially if you're struggling or hard-hearted, for God loves a cheerful giver.
Your taxation in any welfare state is more than enough of a tithe for assisting the poor. The separation of church and state isn't really accounted for.
Is that true though? Regardless of if contemporary taxes should cover assisting the poor (they should). I’m not sure that stance is backed up biblically. around the time of Christ days, Jewish people were living under a Roman state that taxed them, and presumably still abiding the religious obligation of tithing. It would be strange that a big change like that wasn’t written down enough times to survive, like “well, the Roman’s occupy and tax us now, so no tithing”.
But I tend to agree that separation of church and state meant something very different.
No mention of the "Corners of the Field"? This is often mentioned in context of tithing.
Keeping in mind the overlap between the Hellenistic kingdoms & the development of the Biblical texts, and the Roman period and the same also, it;s also important to remember the tithe is also an important element of the rligion of these two, also.
The tropaion, the battlefield trophies mentioned frequently by Thucydides, is one such tithe/first-fruit offering. Even one's body was subject to tithing--you men, once old enough to start shaving, would offering that facial hair as a form of tithe, marking their entrance into manhood.
And this reminds me, also, that religion in both the Ancient Near East & the Mediterranean world, was more than just personal, but also communal, echoing the demands the early Christians' refusal to sacrifice to the Imperial cult was in turn endangering the safety of the Empire, because refusing to do so angered the gods, & that would lead in turn to the potential destruction of the state.
Could there please be a video explaining why there were more polytheistic religions back in the day regardless of the country of origin ( Aztec, Egyptian, Chinese...) ? And obviously, more monotheistic religions as some point in time?
Are religions trends ? Because There was less communication between people ? ..
Thank you very much
Monotheism arose from nationalist propaganda of Biblical authors to prevent Israelites from worshiping national deities of neighbouring nations. Yahweh was originally one of the 70 sons of supreme god El.
Captain Kirk asked the right question, "what does God need with a starship?" Or put another way, "what does God need with my money?"
The money is for the Church, and it's ventures, but okay.
would the Aribic word 'zakat' be derived from the Sumerian 'zag'?
I live in Utah and there is a stark distinction of Christian and non Christians. The money in the church here goes to those are in their group and only a fraction seems to trickle down to those actually in need.
Actually over 2 billion per year goes towards humanitarian aid and needs globally and those in need such as homeless (that’s why California) and other states will send them to Utah
@SportPhilosophies exactly, I would just end with that personal experience is nice however data and reliable information is more important since personal experience is very limited and much more faulty because of its inherent limitation and biases such as larger entity has money= greedy corrupt corporation where the top benifits and those in need do not which is not the case in the lds church based off of the data
The lds church does do humanitarian aid, but until 2022, none was from tithing. When you do tithing you can also add money explicitely for humanitarian aid, which does go to that. The church counts fast offerings as part of how much it gives but fast offering only go from members, to other members, who are tithed, do its hard to say it counts in the same way.
Thank you.
We have the similar concept of "khoms" Iran, according to which each working male is obliged to donate 20% of his monthly income to local clergy.
QUESTION: governance at the time was supported by these tithes (and conquest). Governance WAS religion. Modern government saw the charity work, education, and social security the various religions managed - and wanted it. Today, therefore, since government’s are mostly separate from religions and have replaced most of the fictions, is tithing to be considered PAID by taxes?
It's interesting how tithing from earned wages carries no biblical precedent yet it's frequently presented as a biblical mandate. Nowhere in the Bible were Gentiles commanded to tithe at all and nowhere in the Bible were Israelites commanded to tithe from their monetary earnings. I agree with Dave on a lot of things. Just not his interpretation of biblical tithing.
Tithing is simply another form of charity. Charity is what matters, not giving to some centralized church or temple. Give unto the gods what you deem them worthy of and to the poor what you can.
So, if I direct deposit my income to a bank account, I'm tithing to a temple that loans out to businesses.
Does tithing reflect a divine command or a personal negotiation with faith and circumstances? If it's the latter, how do we reconcile the spiritual essence of generosity with modern financial realities? Let’s discuss!
Today's version of tithing from earned wages carries no biblical precedent. So, no, there's no biblical mandate for anyone to tithe today. To the point of generosity, biblical, compulsory tithing wasn't an act of generosity. It was like a tax, only not accepted as money. Concerning financial realities, sure, a church must have money to survive. This can be accomplished through discretionary, inspired, sacrificial giving.
There's nothing wrong with discretionary tithing, money or otherwise, to a church or otherwise. The problem arises when today's version of tithing is taught as an ongoing, monetary, universal mandate. This idea burdens the less fortunate, and they are the ones we're supposed to be helping, not extorting from them. They, us, and all are free to give, not bound to pay.
I have an idea for your Biblical topic: fasting.
If I was Jewish/christian I’d be fine. I don’t grow crops or raise livestock. 10% of zero is zero.
Much of what Ramsey talked about what not religion, but political ideology. Somehow they keep mixing those up….
Tithing: because those SA lawsuits aren't going to pay for themselves.
If you want to do something good, give to a real charity instead.
Might the arabic word "zakat" be related to sumerian "zag" through some sort of ancient borrowing? Interesting coincidence if not
Yes finally someone addressed this lol