Utmost literal, word for word, from the most ancient sources available, across many ancient languages. LXX & Samaritan first. I love Stepbible for that.
It also needs an AI generated image of a scowling pope and big breasted fetishized nun with "He hates it!" in big letters for the thumbnail. Gotta click-bait max.
I can't express enough how grateful I am that this scholarly-style religious content has found a niche on RUclips. I always feel like I'm a weird nerd about this stuff but it's nice to know that lots of people care deeply about religious study from a critical perspective. One of the best channels out there
totally agreed these people do great work. and i love the variety of actual beliefs they have from athiest to christian to muslim to all types of other things, and that it influences them, but that theyre all kind of zoomed out from their own perspective to communicate to everyone
Usually this stuff is either from the church or aligned groups or from hostile atheists staging over the top mockery so its nice to get a good middle ground.
I was raised atheist and your channel has made me be way less ignorant about religions, and give me the right pathway on where to look for more information. As an academic, I’m really fond of your narratives. Thanks for being an excellent science communicator 😊
Thank God more and more people realize that sacred scribal houses have been everything: universities, archives, libraries, and more. And temples were depictions of math models of cosmos & nature on Earth, with the highest luxury placed within them. It's these places that have created 80% of the core blueprints for our civilization.
I was raised religious and now I guess I'm spiritual but agnostic, but I still find religion fascinating just as a human behavior. I think it's a real shame how few people approach religion as a neutral interest like language, rather than being defensive over their own faith or dismissive of the whole concept in general. I remember being a teenager and having my atheist friend accuse me of window-shopping for different gods when I was literally just reading about stuff like Buddhism and Islam because I thought it was interesting.
@@grimble4564 Loads of irreligious people have an interest in religions that aren't their own, just look at the amount we still talk about and study long dead religions like the greco roman and nordic pantheons. There's nothing rare or unusual about having an interest in something you don't believe in.
I know of one other channel with the abbreviation of "RFB" but it's almost literally the exact opposite of this channel lol. This channel is definitely the more intelligent of the two.
It takes some serious cahones to commission an openly partisan text and then call it the "English Standard Version". May God bless me with such confidence in my own endeavors.
In their defense, they were basing their work on a translation that also had "Standard" in the name. It's a naming convention that traces back to 1901, when the American subcommittee of the 1885 Revised Version finally had the opportunity to release a second edition of the translation that reflected where their conclusions differed from the British subcommittee. Since some unscrupulous publishers had already issued unofficial updates of the 1885 version that claimed to be in line with the American team's intentions, the decision was made to call the official release the Revised Version, Standard American Edition (or American Standard Version for short). When that translation was updated in 1952, the committee naturally chose to stick with name recognition. The American Standard Version thus became the Revised Standard Version. And when it was updated again in 1989, it received a truly unwieldy moniker: the New Revised Standard Version. (Don't even get me started on the current edition calling itself the New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition. It's devolving into self-parody at this point!) The evangelicals who received the rights to make their own update of the RSV had two choices: either stick some other awkward word into the name (More Revised Standard Version? Extra Revised Standard Version?) or find a new word to go before "Standard Version." They did the latter, and in doing so, they arguably came up with a much catchier (if more brazen) name than the versions that came before it.
@@LimeyLassen There's one more point I should mention about why they might have called it the "English" Standard Version. (I'd edit my previous comment, but RUclips has a weird habit of hiding some replies that have been edited.) In a 1997 email that sparked the ESV project, Wayne Grudem said the following: *Another possibility is getting permission to redo either the old RSV (by changing Thee and Thou, and maybe 5 or 10 places where OT Messianic prophecies were blurred) or the NRSV (by undoing the gender-neutral language). Bruce Metzger himself might be interested in that… The RSV copyright is owned by the National Council of Churches.* *A third possibility is a new translation. But a really good one will look a lot like a sanitized RSV or a slightly more readable NASB. And the NASB has to change its name to gain acceptance in the rest of the English speaking world.* (Source: "More Documentation on the Origin of the ESV," Baylyblog) Notice that he takes issue with the name of the New American Standard Bible. Why? Because the "American" in the name limits its appeal to non-American English speakers. Thus, we could infer that he argued for a translation name that would make the translation suitable for readers in the UK, the Commonwealth, and elsewhere around the world, not just in the States. It's the same reasoning that no doubt lies behind the name of the New "International" Version.
@@LimeyLassen A less-evidentiary reason than MAMoreno's comments, but Americans generally like to assert an ownership of the English language, as if no one else speaks any equally valid forms of it. Especially in modern times, we like to cast British English as strange and our own various American dialects as normal, and even non-British, non-American Englishs are barely even recognized. Consider it part of an America-centric worldview, which is not unusual among evangelicals.
As a former doctoral student (couldn't complete due to illness), I decided to watch this video to see the spin you would put on a subject I was already familiar with. While most of the material was indeed familiar, there was lots of new details there for me (eg, I knew nothing about the ESV). And I thoroughly enjoyed the whole thing, regardless of my familiarity. Great video, thanks!
@@JoelAdamson As far as I am aware the ESV is a translation largely used by the Christian Reformed Church or CRC. (which is a Reformed denomination and largely originating in Dutch Populations). So it's largely possible you just haven't come across many Dutch (or Dutch-Ancestry) Christians
17:07 Holy crap. I speak Hebrew, and I didn't even realize that "What to me and to you" wouldn't make sense in English, because in Hebrew a literal translation of that sentence is completely grammatically correct! The literal words "what to me and to you", is how you say "how are we related/what common business do we have" in Hebrew! How did this little piece of Semitic got into a Greek gospel? EDIT: I looked it up, and there seems to be a scholarly consensus around the author of Mark not being a native Greek speaker, and that his mother tongue was probably Aramaic. That turn of phrase is so subtle that he must not have noticed that it's wrong when he was writing his Greek gospel. I guess stuff like this is how academics determine things about the author's background. BTW, did you guys know there's a Biblical Hermeneutics stackexchange? Because I didn't before googling this stuff.
Greek was probably a second language for most of the New Testament writers, which is why they often use Hebrew/Aramaic idioms in their Greek prose. The English Bibles that lean toward formal equivalence will sometimes retain these odd turns of phrases, while the more dynamic translations will iron them out of the text.
Well obviously not Luke, Acts, or the Pauline (epistles and Psudopigrahica) but Yeah to Mark Revelation James and 1st Peter. 1st Peter compared to 2nd Peter is why 2nd peter is questionable and maybe Psuedopigraphica.
@@DrewpyPlats Why do you say "obviously" not? Paul certainly did not speak Greek as a native language, and the idea of Luke/Acts being written by a Greek physician isn't really based on much, it's still much more likely to be written by a Jew who had learned Greek. It's definitely more polished Greek but it doesn't mean it's not their second language.
congrats on getting the language classes going, what a wonderful project and gift to your audience. I don't have the bandwidth to jump into it now, but I'm looking forward to engaging in the coming years, probably with my daughter as well. well played Andrew!!
@@rainbowkrampus "Up" is the positive direction on the vertical axis in a three-dimensional Cartesian coordinate system. For one's personal frame of reference, it is generally applied to the vector in opposition to local gravity. You're welcome. 😉
What do you think of " Reina Valera " translation , I have seen many Catholic and Protestant translations in Spanish but I believe the oldest complete version is Reina Valera albeit a protestant version.
Spanish and English are at least tangentially related languages. I'd love to hear about translations for tiny regional dialects for island nations or isolated communities. There have to be some crazy editorial decisions made in those translations.
I once saw a discussion where someone said, from memory, that the Norwegian Bible contained the names of the Three Wise Men. Of course, it should not. Matthew tells of 3 gifts brought to the baby Jesus. A back-story has arisen outside the bible, of Caspar, Melchior, and Balthasar, with Melchior bringing gold, etc. I have wondered if any translations blatantly bring in such extra-biblical details
@@EinsteinsHair Christianity has been merged with pagan- ( Indo-) European myths and theology since the very beginning which might not be in accordance with the Bible e.g. Reyes Magos , Christmas , Easter , Saint Nikolas / SinterKlaas , Sankt Nikolas .. , and many more.
@@majidbineshgar7156 Yeah, Christianity tried to do so with midsummer celebrations here in Sweden. Tried to merge it with celebrating, I think, the birth of John the Baptist, but it hasn't stuck around. Maybe if you're really Christian, but otherwise...nope. Easter and Christmas/Yule are pretty mixed, being half pagan and half Christian. Another holiday here that is very merged with Christianity is the Lucia holiday. Partly based on ancient pagan beliefs and partly on a Catholic saint.
Former lds. I really liked the English Bible put out by the Anglican church. I also got into the New American Bible from the Catholic Church. The notes were really informative.
9:35 Just to clarify for anyone who needs it, the story was not about Jesus and a woman caught in adultery with one another. The woman was caught in adultery and Jesus famously says, "let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!”'
Your videos are a blessing for all of us who at some point grew apart from our faith. Hearing you talking from an academic perspective have made me reconnect with all the good reasons to be a believer. Thanks for all your hard work and God bless you and your team! 🙌
3:01 about obscure languages. I'm interested in learning about the Ainu people who are the native people of Hokkaido and surrounding areas. In the late 1800s to nearly the 1940s, there was a priest among them named Reverend John Batchelor and he translated The New Testament as well as The Book of Psalms into the traditional Ainu language. So you're right when you say it's been translated into a lot of obscure languages! The New Testament translation can easily be found on The Internet Archive, but oddly, the only place I could find the Book of Psalms as well as The Book of Common Prayer were through a reprint company that operates out of India.
As an occasional translator of secular texts from other European languages into English, I firmly believe that strictly accurate translation of _anything_ (except perhaps the most mechanical of descriptions) is impossible. Even when the original text is established beyond question.
If you ever thought the Bible Translation tribalism was stupid and pointless, consider the energy people have expended over the accuracy of Japanese-to-English Translations and telling you why NihonSugoi Subs and TV-Yamato subs are GARBAGE while the Shinobi Corp subs are TOTALLY the best fansub, but all three are INFINITY times better than the Lucky Penny Productions official dub that only normie idiots watch. Now imagine if everyone with a dog in that race believed that the fates of everyone's immortal soul relied upon how accurate the translation job was. And now you understand the Bible Translation wars.
@@TheMrcassinaJK Rowling wrote Harry Potter and he didn’t exist before she wrote about him and his adventures. While it’s not a unique concept, Adam and Eve could just as easily devised by themselves because every culture has a similar origin of two humans being brought to life.
That thing about the ESV changing the remarried young widow ruling her household to managing her household reminds me of the translation of the verse in Genesis where Eve is created from Adam, and the Hebrew could and probably does mean that she was created from half of him, like the idea that a husband and wife are their spouse's other half, or it could be stretched to mean that she was created from his rib, which many versions of the bible use and would imply that woman is lesser to man because Eve is just 1 of Adam's ribs.
Those were patriarchal societies without liberal sensibilities. In this sense ESV seems more credible in context, although sometimes it goes farther than it should, taking away some complexity from women's roles in early church and the OT (all indicates those were exceptions, not the rule). The liberal lens that nowadays are more pervasive than ever in academia isn't better in any sense because it's agenda-driven for things like inclusion, feminism etc.
@@italoaugusto8966the bible is pretty big and discusses a lot of things, it has the space to mention exceptions to the rule. Yes, it was a patriarchal society, but if the bible seems to be describing an exception why should we get rid of it?
the rib thing was apparently a totally made up thing from someone millennia later who didn't understand biology. The idea of just taking half of Adam also makes sense in the context of pre roman culture and the rest of the texts
Really great and informative video. Thank you so much for including the JPS/NJPS editions! They are often left out of these discussions but are the standard for millions of American Jews.
"Later I picked up Latin and Coptic," he says, as casually as other people might say they picked up milk and eggs on the way home. 😆 Seriously though, this is an incredible video. I can't imagine how much work went into making it. Thank you so much!
What fascinates me is trying to picture how these books have evolved over the centuries so I really appreciate the discussions on the how fragments of many manuscripts were put together and all the discussions of the many translations and versions. I am a long time atheist and was never baptized or anything, but spent grades 1 to 9 in the Catholic school system in Canada, and developed a love of the history of religions. Anyway, great video, thanks.
The concept of producing a new translation of the Bible to support biblical inerrancy because you don't like all the other translations out there feels self defeating.
*They are seven competing standards* "Seven ? That is absurd! We need to make a standard that combine all of them" *They're now eight competing standard* -XKCD comics
The issue, to be fair, was that the RSV was the first proper update to the Tyndale-Coverdale Bible that employed modern English. It was the literary progeny of the KJV, which made it the heir apparent--the version that would be found in pulpits across the English-speaking world, regardless of denominational affiliation. It might have succeeded in doing so if the committee had held to traditional interpretations. When the RSV failed to do so (or, more accurately, intentionally chose not to do so), evangelical groups looked to fill the void. In some cases, they produced translations that were as theologically biased as the KJV (e.g., NASB, NKJV, ESV), and in other cases, they went even further and reworded the text to be more overtly in line with evangelical beliefs and inerrantist apologetics (see especially the earliest editions of the NIV). But they can't be fully faulted for seeking an alternative to a translation that intentionally alienated them, even if it did so in the name of academic integrity.
@@MAMorenoi see your point about the rsv being a bait and switch for evangelical Christians who were familiar with the KJV. However, I do agree with the sentiment that creating another bible translation because the KJV successor doesn't say what you've been telling everyone the bible says is pretty silly
@@micahjones7837 Well, from their perspective, the RSV had simply gotten it wrong. The issue is that there was no singular concerted effort to offer the evangelical alternative. The New American Standard Bible of 1971 was the most direct response (being an unofficial revision of the ASV that took advantage of its recent entry into the public domain), but other committees decided to abandon the 400-year-old Tyndale tradition and start more or less from scratch. And then other committees didn't like the way that they did it and . . . well, that's how we ended up where we are.
Mr For Breakfast, this is a great video! As a former Christian I have gone back and read starting from Genesis, and I’ve been using NIV online (what I was raised on) and a physical copy of the KJV (which I was gifted- a funny story for another day) and was already noticing some big differences between them. Thanks for this in depth look! It’ll influence how/which version I read from now on.
Catholic translations rule, and this is coming from an atheist. the NABre is great but the New Jerusalem Bible is extremely underrated. It has great notes and the language is beautiful, I recommend as my favorite non-literal translation
This reminds me of a wonderful professor of mine, Donald Sheehan. He loved languages, he loved poetry, and he was also deeply devout. When asked what was a good English translation of The Iliad he simply replied that there wasn't one. He felt the same way about the Psalms -- he always felt that poetry never translated well between languages.
One of my favorite examples of difference in translation is Isaiah 21:1 KJV: “The burden of the desert of the sea. As whirlwinds in the south pass through; so it cometh from the desert, from a terrible land.” NRSV: “The oracle concerning the wilderness of the sea. As whirlwinds in the Negeb sweep on, it comes from the desert, from a terrible land.” Actually, the whole of Isaiah 21 is translated quite differently in both versions. I’m not familiar with the Hebrew at all. I find this passage in the KJV, though, to be one of the most beautiful things ever put to pen in the English language. “The burden of the desert of the sea” goes hard, frankly. And it’s had a great deal of influence on English both religiously and otherwise. It contains “Babylon is fallen,” inspiration for the famous English Civil War song, and “the watchtower,” famous later among the Jehovah’s Witnesses. But it is also somewhat difficult to understand as a contemporary English speaker. This is one of the reasons I really like the Bible app, because I can swap between translations at ease and get a full picture of both the literal meaning and the literary significance on English more broadly. After all, I think there is no work more influential on English literature than the KJV. Being acquainted with it is a must for any student of Shakespeare, Blake, Milton, the founding fathers, etc.
A guy that comments in this channel has proposed this to other Christians. Unfortunately that's easier said than done as learning a foreign language that isnt used day to day basis is a daunting task. However, for people that have the intelligence to do as such, it seems a great goal in life. Learning for reading is much easier than fully learning everything.
@@Neomalthusiano Yeah I studied ancient greek in my time in uni and I will confidently say it was much harder than learning Mandarin Chinese. Not just because Chinese has very simple grammar and Greek has very complex grammar, but also it’s just easier to learn a living language. My Chinese teacher could at least give me feedback like “your translation makes you sound like a stereotypical southern peasant”. At most from my Greek professor I got stuff like “that’s not how you make an aorist participle”.
@@saldol9862 People don't say "that's Greek to me" for nothing, you know (lol). But, truth be told, the French say "C'est du chinois", so you're between a rock and a hard place. Yet, in defense of the "κοινὴ", I would argue that Mandarin having no alphabet, make things more difficult to look up in the dictionary by beginners (Pinyin, Wade-Giles and such have some limitations), characters give less clues on pronunciation (and vice versa), it's hard pronouncing tones without a teacher, and so on... and there's "wenyanwen". Well, actually, unless you spend decades, there isn't (lol). On the other hand, if you like to communicate and have a teacher available, you can get much farther making sentences and learning it as a real language. And you really feel like it. Koiné Greek seems that's to be felt more like an academic subject, than a language that was once powerful. Still, I'm curious if natives of languages with more complex grammar (like Russian) would find it less intimidating.
@@NeomalthusianoChristianity is like playing religion on easy-mode. Muslims and Jews learn the dead language(s) their texts are written in. Buddhists and Hindus learns at minimum enough to pray in. Christians can't even be bothered to read their single most important book in the language they already speak. Just eat Communion Wafers, sing songs, charge their phone, and lie
always excellent explanations of every subject you present. knowledge and clarity and you try to put so much information into your work. i be to see each at least twice to catch 90%…thank you for your dedication.
@ekesandras1481 Would you recommend another one? I did quite a lot of research a few years ago, and the Elberfelder was the nearest to the ancient languages.
What makes the King James special is that it is a piece of art in itself. The way it is quoted throughout western lit and seaped into the english language make it almost a separate thing to also being the Bible. If you study plays or novels you need to read King James. Those phrases echo through time. "Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror" is very understandable and clear but "For now we see through a glass, darkly" is poetry in and of itself, and is much quoted and used
Is the king James actually poetic though, or is it just that the English is old and different and familiar, so it feels poetic. People were complaining about the KJV from the moment it was published, which makes me think that what makes it such “good literature” is that it’s just so ingrained culturally in to English. If we hadn’t been reading and quoting it for 500 years, would we really think it was so special? I think probably not
@@BobbyHill26 George Bernard Shaw said, “The translation was extraordinarily well done … and achieved a beautifully artistic result.” But you are allowed you opinion also. As to is it just old and familiar, that could be charged at many things. If I wrote beowolf or hamlet today would they get anywhere, probably not.
@@BobbyHill26 The KJV was deliberately designed to be euphonic. It's supposed to sound pretty. It would sometimes choose the nicest-sounding language from among the handful of translations that preceded it. See, for instance, Ecclesiastes 9.11. Here's how it sounded in the Bishops' Bible, of which the KJV was ostensibly a revision: *So I turned me vnto other thinges vnder the sunne, & I sawe that in running it helpeth not to be swift, in battell it helpeth not to be strong, to feeding it helpeth not to be wyse, to riches it helpeth not to be a man of muche vnderstanding, to be had in fauour it helpeth not to be cunning: but that all lieth in tyme and fortune.* Not bad, but rather matter of fact with little art. Now compare that to the KJV: *I returned, and saw vnder the Sunne, That the race is not to the swift, nor the battell to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of vnderstanding, nor yet fauour to men of skil; but time and chance happeneth to them all.* This far more flowery prose is mostly swiped from the Geneva Bible, which was the preferred choice for the layperson, if not the one they'd be hearing from the lectern in the Anglican liturgy. At other times, they weren't above swiping words from the Douay-Rheims Bible of the English Catholics, assuming they had a nice ring to them. And, of course, some it they produced themselves. This prioritization of rhythm and euphony is something that has been largely lost in more recent translations, as it's assumed that most people now have the means and the literacy to use a translation at home and thus don't need something as memorable as the KJV, though some modern versions (like the ESV) do make a conscious decision to consider how it sounds when read aloud.
@@BobbyHill26Yes it is poetic. The translators intentionally read each line aloud to each other to determine which possible translation sounded best. One of those men was fluent in 19 languages. While many of them differed in their theological opinions, they all held faithfully to what they believed to be true.
@@BobbyHill26It is intentionally poetic. The KJV was meant to be read aloud to a still largely illiterate population of English parishioners. The KJV is still the champion of all Biblical translations in the realm of preaching and exhortation for this purpose, imo.
The best is to learn a little Koine Greek and get a copy of both an English critical text translation (ESV or NASB, for instance) alongside a copy of the critical texts, and look at both. An interlinear, will work for that
That is fine for hobbyists who're really interested in translation, though I think many people who're not that into it can benefit from taking several recognised translations and comparing them together to get the gist of what the original text is saying
Formidable video: bottom line is that translation is hard. Those of us who are multilingual have an instinctive understanding of that reality. I can only sympathise with monoglot Christians (like the vast majority of English-speaking Americans) for whom, as the saying goes, "it's all Greek to (them)"...
One of your best videos, RFB! Your amazing objective takes on the translation that let's the translators do the talking is exactly what I would expect and you delivered. Thank you, more long form content pls!
I'm currently studying and translating the Book of Acts from Koine as part of a Classical Languages major, and looking through all the papyri, majuscules, miniscules, and scrolls (both in the Septuagint and other manuscripts (e.g., Codex Sinaiticus & Vaticanus)) and seeing how (in my case, Luke, or whoever wrote Luke-Acts) those texts interweave with each other always delights and suprises. Textual criticism of anthologies like the Bible, Quran or the Vedas, is massively important in my understanding of what I believe in and how I have natural, modern biases in my interpretations. Keep up the good work!
Yes, the Qur'an has been preserved in its original "Qur'anic Arabic" (predecessor of Classical and MSA), both in the language sense and also in spelling. However the script has changed to facilitate easier recitation (e.g Vowel markers, dots to differentiate different letters with the same shape, etc.)
This video was fantastic, thank you. I appreciate the scholarly and non partisan approach. I was raised Jehovah’s Witness and I think you’d be fascinated by a study of their Bible. They make some extremely interesting and controversial translation choices. One thing that’s particularly curious is that they do not disclose who did the actual translation preferring to ‘let the translation speak for itself’ rather than have people scrutinize their (perhaps lack of) qualifications. One thing is certain, it’s very different from most modern translations
The first translation I read cover to cover was the New Living Translation, which is a much more "beginner friendly" bible (which paraphrases into "modern English"). It actually helped me get through it as a newcomer, and only later when I was more interested in theology did I start reading more accurate translations.
Great summary! You fit a lot in that hour. Thank you. I remember taking two years of koine Greek in college. I never remotely struggled with anything academically as NT Greek.
as a religious transgender person, it is absolutely a petty decision. they were translating with an agenda - not translating based on what it says, but translated based on what they want it to say.
Thanks, Andrew. A very interesting video. I thought when I saw how long this video was I might jump after a bit but I found the whole thing worth the time invested.
"NETS" and "The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls In English by Geza Vermes" are two books that take the oldest texts we have and translates them without bias and with a purely historical interpretation. You get a really good picture of what the original religion was intended to be before it was repeatedly altered by various religious and political figures.
Despite the dubious utility of such a thing, I would love to read a maximally formally equivalent translation of the Bible, it sounds like that would be hilarious
As a translation student, I think you did a good job explaining the kinds of dilemmas translators face and the choices we have to make and justify. Great video!
The ESV was primarily introduced as a way to solve problems in the NIV. Many who use the ESV were previously using the NIV and rarely touched the RSV. The primarily reason many did not touch the RSV outside the USA is because the RSV is an American translation, and the words are often incorrectly spelt, or unusual to other English readers, whereas the NIV and ESV adapted themselves for point of sale more (the NRSV does adapt better to the different spellings depending on point of sale). To give an example of global adjustments, when the ESV was released in the UK and Australia, it was first checked and edited for word meaning and spelling, including a non-red letter text for Australians. Before Australia there was only red letter text ESV. the RSV took longer to make global adjustments and so was not used as extensively outside the USA.
There's an excellent book titled "The Making of Biblical Womanhood" by Beth Allison Barr which explores (among many other topics) the ways the ESV was translated specifically to limit the role of women in conservative evangelical churches. I grew up in the PCA and the ESV was the only bible we used. Kids in Sunday school called the NIV the Not Inspired Version. The translation choices to keep women subjugated go much farther than he got into in this video. Beth Allison Barr is a fantastic author and historian. Her books are fascinating and worth checking out! Just be prepared to get a little furious
Wow I just started learning attic Greek on my own with the JACT textbooks (with the intention of learning koine soon after). I’ve been a big fan of your channel for a few years now, so for you to be offering classes right as I’m starting my journey into Greek feels like a true synchronicity! Really appreciate what you do, keep it up! (Also really looking forward to a Classical Arabic class when you get around to it)
Watching this video after having seen Knowing Betters new video on sevent day adventists adds a whole new layer onto all those 19th century people attempting to use the bible to create new theology or seeking "the only truth" from it.
I began watching with the expectation that despite my respect for you and interest in the subject, viewing would become a bit of a slog. WOW -- this exploration was riveting! I couldn't stop watching - you're an excellent Explainer. Thank you for providing much-needed context about each of the predominant English versions of the Bible! Although I won't be able to take the just-started class in Koine, I will register for the newsletter and see about future courses.
What's your take on the NASB? Growing up on the ESV and NIV, the NASB has been a breath of fresh air, seeming to me, to be much more appropriately translated, even if it does have a good deal of Protestant bias. Anecdotally, I'll say that when I've compared it to the NRSV, it largely agrees, but has more helpful ways of phrasing gender neutral passages, and the like. I have a half decent understanding of Greek, and most of the time when I check with an interlinear, the NASB is pretty reliable.
One of my favourite videos you’ve ever made. Fascinating stuff! Would love to hear more about translations of other sacred or holy texts like the Qu’ran, the Vedas, ect.
Love this content. As an atheist raised Christian (UPCI), I have a fascination with the Bible and its translations from a secular perspective. More content like this please!
Weird question, and I do mean it genuinely, without malice intent: If Atheist, why do you continue to let Religion consume such a piece of your life? I would think people who are Atheist, would be disinterested in hearing about God and religion any longer.
@bobSeigar If you're raised christian, it will always be a part of your identity. E.g. you will always be "ex christian". Also for most people, the friends they grew up with and their family, likely might still be christian, if you're in the USA there's not really any getting away from it. Also one of the reasons why someone might become an atheist is because they are legitimately curious, maybe wanted to be a better christian, and learn more about christianity, maybe to defend it better, only to find out that the perfect NIV bible they grew up with isn't so perfect.
@@josiahls4859 So, you still allow the words of the Church to eat at your time, while Identifying yourself by what you are not, as opposed to what you are? :( that's sad, but I appreciate your input.
@@bobSeigar So much of occidental art, literature, culture, and spoken language is biblically referential that refusing to engage with the Bible at all genuinely impedes one's ability to understand the past and communicate in the present, whatever your faith or lack thereof. As a secular humanist myself with no faith in any gods, I see value in religious studies for cultural literacy and a broader understanding the human condition.
Very interesting video! I would have appreciated you putting up snippets of the Greek/Hebrew being translated. You did it a little bit in the later parts of the video, but I think it would have been especially useful when comparing two English translations that used different source texts
24:20 _...Almah...Parthenos... Young Woman..._ Similar to Miss, Maiden, Mädchen, Mademoiselle, Señorita, Fräulein, and so on, implying youth, as these are often the diminutive forms of their older counterparts, Missus, Maid, Madam, Mädel (sp?), Señora, Frau, etc. There are also connotations of single versus married, as, in much of Western society, women's place is defined by her marital status. And that's also where we get the precursors to discussions of misgendering someone, but in a more age biased fashion. Some women don't like to be referred to as ma'am because it implies age or Mrs. for its denotative meaning of marriage; conversely some women don't want to be called miss, because it implies a lack of age or status. Which is where Ms. came about, but it also hasn't been uniformly adopted. *_Denotations are hard; connotations are harder._* 🤷♂️ But I digress. Don't attribute to miraculous virgin, parthenogenic birth that which can be the result of linguistic fallibilities.
I'm a Quaker. I read the KJV because it connects me to the language that was being read by generations of Friends before me (although our founders probably preferred the earlier Geneva Bible) as well as having the language that is most referenced throughout our culture. It's arguably the best translation for those purposes - but on those occasions when subtle nuances matter, then it's time to look to the same passage in the NRSV.
When I was a Christian, my favorite translation was the HCSB. To be honest, I don't really know how it's different from other translations. It seemed to contain much more context and detail than some other modern translations, but now I want to learn more about it. Great video as usual!
@@cheuthoThe original translation stylist of the NIV was a self-confessed homosexual witch. Conservatives frequently refuse to use the NIV specifically for that reason.
This was an amazingly concise and useful video on Bible translation and I will definitely be sharing this with people! I'm also excited about your Biblical Languages courses. I would definitely sign up for the Koine Greek course were it not during the workday.
The one i have is the Ecumenical translation of the the bible (TOB). It's a translation that aims to make a convergence between the Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox canon. Good stuff. Before that i had a protestant one but it lacked way too many books and verses. I wanted to get the full bible experience. And i still have the non canon books to read afterwards.
Nice. I honestly wish translators would just drop the critical approach, and instead include as much as possible of the fullness of the New Testament traditions.
3:50 It is probably not entirely true that Koine Greek was the native language of all the gospel writers. The Greek used in the Gospel of Mark for instance shows many characteristics of having been written by someone whose first language was Semitic, probably Aramaic.
@@bartolomeothesatyrNo he didn't. King James authorised the translation of the Bible. He didn't devise it, though he did provide some directions like not to translate "church" as "congregation".
There’s nothing wrong with KJV for use as a personal Bible for spiritual edification. The problem is that churches which use the KJV often have very dogmatic beliefs about it, or believe that it is the only divinely inspired English translation.
The literal translation of thank you in Russian, спасибо (spasibo), is a contraction of спаси Бог (spasi Bog) meaning “save God”, or in other words God save you.
This religion essay/lesson is not only enough for breakfast, but for a hearty lunch also. This channel balances well with their respect. To me personally, a presentation is good as long as they just don't mock anything pointlessly, for I have a pittance of respect to religions, but I don't care for pointless silliness. I absolutely love how concisely scholarly this channel is (I'm a sucker for scientific approach, sorry). And I can enjoy good data presentation without humorous inserts.
Oxford Annotated NRSV No question. Enough said But i really want one with the new testament apocrypha included as well. If medieval forgeries of relics are important to the to history of the church, then so are those apocrypha. Petty differences between denimonations on what should be canonical just aren't interesting
@@TheSolPhoenix I have the SBL NRSVUE too. I looking forward to the 6th edition to the Oxford Study Bible. I think they will use the NRSVUE too. This way I can compare them.
Register for our online Koine Greek class here!: religiondepartment.com/
K
I'd love to hear your thoughts on the Bible code
I have four homeschooled kids and no time, but one of these days I'm gonna take a class of yours!
Utmost literal, word for word, from the most ancient sources available, across many ancient languages. LXX & Samaritan first. I love Stepbible for that.
@@Hermit_mouseMy project is about the uncoding. Profound discoveries, next chapter of biblical history
Top 10 bibles of all time(number 4 will shock you!)
Nice clickbaity title there😂
So funny
It’s missing “this version DESTROYS that version”
But good clickbait nonetheless.
The Queen James Version 😮
It also needs an AI generated image of a scowling pope and big breasted fetishized nun with "He hates it!" in big letters for the thumbnail. Gotta click-bait max.
I can't express enough how grateful I am that this scholarly-style religious content has found a niche on RUclips. I always feel like I'm a weird nerd about this stuff but it's nice to know that lots of people care deeply about religious study from a critical perspective. One of the best channels out there
Amen 🙏🏻 I agree
totally agreed these people do great work. and i love the variety of actual beliefs they have from athiest to christian to muslim to all types of other things, and that it influences them, but that theyre all kind of zoomed out from their own perspective to communicate to everyone
Usually this stuff is either from the church or aligned groups or from hostile atheists staging over the top mockery so its nice to get a good middle ground.
Definitely, I'm the same way. I absolutely love more academic and unbiased views on religious matters/topics.
I was raised atheist and your channel has made me be way less ignorant about religions, and give me the right pathway on where to look for more information. As an academic, I’m really fond of your narratives. Thanks for being an excellent science communicator 😊
I'm in the opposite side of the scale raised super religious and now agnostic because of going into deep dives of how religion became what it became.
Thank God more and more people realize that sacred scribal houses have been everything: universities, archives, libraries, and more. And temples were depictions of math models of cosmos & nature on Earth, with the highest luxury placed within them. It's these places that have created 80% of the core blueprints for our civilization.
I was raised religious and now I guess I'm spiritual but agnostic, but I still find religion fascinating just as a human behavior. I think it's a real shame how few people approach religion as a neutral interest like language, rather than being defensive over their own faith or dismissive of the whole concept in general. I remember being a teenager and having my atheist friend accuse me of window-shopping for different gods when I was literally just reading about stuff like Buddhism and Islam because I thought it was interesting.
@@grimble4564
Loads of irreligious people have an interest in religions that aren't their own, just look at the amount we still talk about and study long dead religions like the greco roman and nordic pantheons. There's nothing rare or unusual about having an interest in something you don't believe in.
People are really raised atheist as opposed to secular/non religious? Like parents don’t permit religious ideas or books in the household?
"Jesus, moved with compassion" vs "Jesus was indignant." Modern language "Jesus felt some type of way."
I’d love to see a translation using only Gen Z slang
Jesus said "Cope". @@LDogSmiles
Regardless, I'm sure superciliousness isn't recommended.
Jesus was vibin.
'Jesus moved with infuriated empathy' or 'Jesus was kindly angry'
"Just according to God's 'keikaku."
Translator's Note: 'Keikaku' means plan.
this got me thinking what a biblical fan translation would look like
@@nhgh1756 There ARE in fact bible translations like that, where a lot of technical terms are left in Hebrew.
@@fnjesusfreak please I NEED to know the name of at least one
@@kylarirons2236 Tree of Life Version
@nhgh1756 If you think about, all Bible translations are fan translations.
rfb hour long video; we have been truly blessed
Right?)
Religion for breakfast and lunch
I know of one other channel with the abbreviation of "RFB" but it's almost literally the exact opposite of this channel lol. This channel is definitely the more intelligent of the two.
It takes some serious cahones to commission an openly partisan text and then call it the "English Standard Version". May God bless me with such confidence in my own endeavors.
In their defense, they were basing their work on a translation that also had "Standard" in the name. It's a naming convention that traces back to 1901, when the American subcommittee of the 1885 Revised Version finally had the opportunity to release a second edition of the translation that reflected where their conclusions differed from the British subcommittee. Since some unscrupulous publishers had already issued unofficial updates of the 1885 version that claimed to be in line with the American team's intentions, the decision was made to call the official release the Revised Version, Standard American Edition (or American Standard Version for short).
When that translation was updated in 1952, the committee naturally chose to stick with name recognition. The American Standard Version thus became the Revised Standard Version. And when it was updated again in 1989, it received a truly unwieldy moniker: the New Revised Standard Version. (Don't even get me started on the current edition calling itself the New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition. It's devolving into self-parody at this point!) The evangelicals who received the rights to make their own update of the RSV had two choices: either stick some other awkward word into the name (More Revised Standard Version? Extra Revised Standard Version?) or find a new word to go before "Standard Version." They did the latter, and in doing so, they arguably came up with a much catchier (if more brazen) name than the versions that came before it.
@@MAMoreno But why "English"? Especially if this all started with distinguishing themselves from the British in the first place.
@@LimeyLassen There's one more point I should mention about why they might have called it the "English" Standard Version. (I'd edit my previous comment, but RUclips has a weird habit of hiding some replies that have been edited.)
In a 1997 email that sparked the ESV project, Wayne Grudem said the following:
*Another possibility is getting permission to redo either the old RSV (by changing Thee and Thou, and maybe 5 or 10 places where OT Messianic prophecies were blurred) or the NRSV (by undoing the gender-neutral language). Bruce Metzger himself might be interested in that… The RSV copyright is owned by the National Council of Churches.*
*A third possibility is a new translation. But a really good one will look a lot like a sanitized RSV or a slightly more readable NASB. And the NASB has to change its name to gain acceptance in the rest of the English speaking world.*
(Source: "More Documentation on the Origin of the ESV," Baylyblog)
Notice that he takes issue with the name of the New American Standard Bible. Why? Because the "American" in the name limits its appeal to non-American English speakers. Thus, we could infer that he argued for a translation name that would make the translation suitable for readers in the UK, the Commonwealth, and elsewhere around the world, not just in the States. It's the same reasoning that no doubt lies behind the name of the New "International" Version.
@@LimeyLassen A less-evidentiary reason than MAMoreno's comments, but Americans generally like to assert an ownership of the English language, as if no one else speaks any equally valid forms of it. Especially in modern times, we like to cast British English as strange and our own various American dialects as normal, and even non-British, non-American Englishs are barely even recognized. Consider it part of an America-centric worldview, which is not unusual among evangelicals.
The E ought to stand for Evangelical.
As a former doctoral student (couldn't complete due to illness), I decided to watch this video to see the spin you would put on a subject I was already familiar with. While most of the material was indeed familiar, there was lots of new details there for me (eg, I knew nothing about the ESV). And I thoroughly enjoyed the whole thing, regardless of my familiarity. Great video, thanks!
I've never heard of the ESV. My dad is a minister with a huge Bible collection.
@@JoelAdamson As far as I am aware the ESV is a translation largely used by the Christian Reformed Church or CRC. (which is a Reformed denomination and largely originating in Dutch Populations). So it's largely possible you just haven't come across many Dutch (or Dutch-Ancestry) Christians
@@micahbonewell5994 I've heard American Evangelicals talk about it since watching this video.
17:07 Holy crap. I speak Hebrew, and I didn't even realize that "What to me and to you" wouldn't make sense in English, because in Hebrew a literal translation of that sentence is completely grammatically correct! The literal words "what to me and to you", is how you say "how are we related/what common business do we have" in Hebrew! How did this little piece of Semitic got into a Greek gospel?
EDIT: I looked it up, and there seems to be a scholarly consensus around the author of Mark not being a native Greek speaker, and that his mother tongue was probably Aramaic. That turn of phrase is so subtle that he must not have noticed that it's wrong when he was writing his Greek gospel. I guess stuff like this is how academics determine things about the author's background.
BTW, did you guys know there's a Biblical Hermeneutics stackexchange? Because I didn't before googling this stuff.
There's a lot of study into Semiticisms in the New Testament
Greek was probably a second language for most of the New Testament writers, which is why they often use Hebrew/Aramaic idioms in their Greek prose. The English Bibles that lean toward formal equivalence will sometimes retain these odd turns of phrases, while the more dynamic translations will iron them out of the text.
Well obviously not Luke, Acts, or the Pauline (epistles and Psudopigrahica) but Yeah to Mark Revelation James and 1st Peter. 1st Peter compared to 2nd Peter is why 2nd peter is questionable and maybe Psuedopigraphica.
@@DrewpyPlats Why do you say "obviously" not? Paul certainly did not speak Greek as a native language, and the idea of Luke/Acts being written by a Greek physician isn't really based on much, it's still much more likely to be written by a Jew who had learned Greek. It's definitely more polished Greek but it doesn't mean it's not their second language.
“What’s up?”
The most important meal of the day, Religion for Breakfast
congrats on getting the language classes going, what a wonderful project and gift to your audience. I don't have the bandwidth to jump into it now, but I'm looking forward to engaging in the coming years, probably with my daughter as well. well played Andrew!!
I'ma start greeting people like "what is above you?" ✌️😅
What is up? Please! Can somebody tell me what up is???
@@rainbowkrampus "Up" is the positive direction on the vertical axis in a three-dimensional Cartesian coordinate system. For one's personal frame of reference, it is generally applied to the vector in opposition to local gravity. You're welcome. 😉
@@rainbowkrampusis that a nightvaile reference? I'm not sure why but i read that in Cecil voice.
The roof.
The most comprehensive short introduction to Bible translation I've ever seen. Great work.
Nearly an hour long ReligionFor Breakfast, right here? Right now? Today? Oh man, looking forward to dinner tonight.
Localized entirely in your kitchen?
For…DINNER 🤨🤨🤨
That would be Religion for Dinner...
Religion for late late breakfast
@@MaryamMaqdisi ReligionForSecondBreakfast
This is why I love your channel. You wear your erudition lightly and explain things so well to laymen such as myself. Superb!
Nice video as always! Translating a sacred book is always more challenging. I’d love to hear more about the Spanish translation or other languages.
What do you think of " Reina Valera " translation , I have seen many Catholic and Protestant translations in Spanish but I believe the oldest complete version is Reina Valera albeit a protestant version.
Spanish and English are at least tangentially related languages. I'd love to hear about translations for tiny regional dialects for island nations or isolated communities. There have to be some crazy editorial decisions made in those translations.
I once saw a discussion where someone said, from memory, that the Norwegian Bible contained the names of the Three Wise Men. Of course, it should not. Matthew tells of 3 gifts brought to the baby Jesus. A back-story has arisen outside the bible, of Caspar, Melchior, and Balthasar, with Melchior bringing gold, etc. I have wondered if any translations blatantly bring in such extra-biblical details
@@EinsteinsHair Christianity has been merged with pagan- ( Indo-) European myths and theology since the very beginning which might not be in accordance with the Bible e.g. Reyes Magos , Christmas , Easter , Saint Nikolas / SinterKlaas , Sankt Nikolas .. , and many more.
@@majidbineshgar7156
Yeah, Christianity tried to do so with midsummer celebrations here in Sweden. Tried to merge it with celebrating, I think, the birth of John the Baptist, but it hasn't stuck around. Maybe if you're really Christian, but otherwise...nope. Easter and Christmas/Yule are pretty mixed, being half pagan and half Christian.
Another holiday here that is very merged with Christianity is the Lucia holiday. Partly based on ancient pagan beliefs and partly on a Catholic saint.
"NRSV updated edition" is very funny title lol. the standard version, +revised, +new, +updated haha
Featuring Dante from the devil may cry series
yea they're gonna need a new name at some point 😭
@@Kinoe54 &Knuckles
NRSV 2.5 HD remix Final Chapter
@@PaintedHoundie Don't forget to add definitive edition Director's Cut
The best bible are the disciples we make along the way.
LDS here, liked the video! I think I'll give the NRSV a read, always been interested in other translations. Thanks
After approaching this channel, what are your thoughts on the Book of Mormon and Joseph smith?
@@potentialcaroozin2385it’s a cult
@@BrandonFowler-fl3wh most of my BYU professors liked it.
Former lds. I really liked the English Bible put out by the Anglican church. I also got into the New American Bible from the Catholic Church. The notes were really informative.
@@potentialcaroozin2385
Not really part of the conversation, I may suggest that a more specific question might be helpful though
9:35 Just to clarify for anyone who needs it, the story was not about Jesus and a woman caught in adultery with one another. The woman was caught in adultery and Jesus famously says, "let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!”'
And (pretty significantly) ends with "Neither do I judge thee. Go and sin no more."
@@androgenoideYes, quite significant that he asks her to sin no more, and lets her off without judgement of past actions.
This is a massively important discussion. Thank you for presenting it with a balanced view and attention to detail.
Your videos are a blessing for all of us who at some point grew apart from our faith. Hearing you talking from an academic perspective have made me reconnect with all the good reasons to be a believer. Thanks for all your hard work and God bless you and your team! 🙌
I am super interested in potential future classes on sanskrit and pali. Thanks as always for the amazing and educational videos!
3:01 about obscure languages. I'm interested in learning about the Ainu people who are the native people of Hokkaido and surrounding areas. In the late 1800s to nearly the 1940s, there was a priest among them named Reverend John Batchelor and he translated The New Testament as well as The Book of Psalms into the traditional Ainu language. So you're right when you say it's been translated into a lot of obscure languages! The New Testament translation can easily be found on The Internet Archive, but oddly, the only place I could find the Book of Psalms as well as The Book of Common Prayer were through a reprint company that operates out of India.
As an occasional translator of secular texts from other European languages into English, I firmly believe that strictly accurate translation of _anything_ (except perhaps the most mechanical of descriptions) is impossible. Even when the original text is established beyond question.
If you ever thought the Bible Translation tribalism was stupid and pointless, consider the energy people have expended over the accuracy of Japanese-to-English Translations and telling you why NihonSugoi Subs and TV-Yamato subs are GARBAGE while the Shinobi Corp subs are TOTALLY the best fansub, but all three are INFINITY times better than the Lucky Penny Productions official dub that only normie idiots watch.
Now imagine if everyone with a dog in that race believed that the fates of everyone's immortal soul relied upon how accurate the translation job was. And now you understand the Bible Translation wars.
This was part of what made me atheist - seems like if there is a Christian god they're setting people up for failure in interpreting their word.
@@Farimira I blame whoever was involved with the tower of Babel
@@strangelaw6384 I believe that was the Christian god, among others. Which _really_ isn't helping things.
@@Llortnerof Exactly my joke!
oh yeah, i remember back in my younger years being very finicky about subs for anime, far more finicky than my bible translation.
Please do a video on the pre-biblical origins of Adam and Eve.
That would be a cool thing to hear about.
I didn't know that Adam and Eve was there before the Bible.
@@konokiomomuro7632 how could they write about them if they weren't already there?
@@TheMrcassinaJK Rowling wrote Harry Potter and he didn’t exist before she wrote about him and his adventures.
While it’s not a unique concept, Adam and Eve could just as easily devised by themselves because every culture has a similar origin of two humans being brought to life.
@@ByTheStorm It was a joke...
That thing about the ESV changing the remarried young widow ruling her household to managing her household reminds me of the translation of the verse in Genesis where Eve is created from Adam, and the Hebrew could and probably does mean that she was created from half of him, like the idea that a husband and wife are their spouse's other half, or it could be stretched to mean that she was created from his rib, which many versions of the bible use and would imply that woman is lesser to man because Eve is just 1 of Adam's ribs.
Those were patriarchal societies without liberal sensibilities. In this sense ESV seems more credible in context, although sometimes it goes farther than it should, taking away some complexity from women's roles in early church and the OT (all indicates those were exceptions, not the rule).
The liberal lens that nowadays are more pervasive than ever in academia isn't better in any sense because it's agenda-driven for things like inclusion, feminism etc.
@@italoaugusto8966the bible is pretty big and discusses a lot of things, it has the space to mention exceptions to the rule. Yes, it was a patriarchal society, but if the bible seems to be describing an exception why should we get rid of it?
@@kevincronk7981 I agree with you, nothing in my former statament says otherwise.
The ESC translation is more accurate in capturing how a modern reader should understand the meaning.
the rib thing was apparently a totally made up thing from someone millennia later who didn't understand biology. The idea of just taking half of Adam also makes sense in the context of pre roman culture and the rest of the texts
Really great and informative video. Thank you so much for including the JPS/NJPS editions! They are often left out of these discussions but are the standard for millions of American Jews.
I use the JPS editions from 1917, 1985, 1999, & 2023. I was happy to see this!
"Later I picked up Latin and Coptic," he says, as casually as other people might say they picked up milk and eggs on the way home. 😆
Seriously though, this is an incredible video. I can't imagine how much work went into making it. Thank you so much!
languages are easier the more of them you learn
What fascinates me is trying to picture how these books have evolved over the centuries so I really appreciate the discussions on the how fragments of many manuscripts were put together and all the discussions of the many translations and versions. I am a long time atheist and was never baptized or anything, but spent grades 1 to 9 in the Catholic school system in Canada, and developed a love of the history of religions. Anyway, great video, thanks.
The concept of producing a new translation of the Bible to support biblical inerrancy because you don't like all the other translations out there feels self defeating.
Heard of the Watchtower bible? oh wow, that is a whole topic in itself.
*They are seven competing standards*
"Seven ? That is absurd! We need to make a standard that combine all of them"
*They're now eight competing standard*
-XKCD comics
The issue, to be fair, was that the RSV was the first proper update to the Tyndale-Coverdale Bible that employed modern English. It was the literary progeny of the KJV, which made it the heir apparent--the version that would be found in pulpits across the English-speaking world, regardless of denominational affiliation. It might have succeeded in doing so if the committee had held to traditional interpretations.
When the RSV failed to do so (or, more accurately, intentionally chose not to do so), evangelical groups looked to fill the void. In some cases, they produced translations that were as theologically biased as the KJV (e.g., NASB, NKJV, ESV), and in other cases, they went even further and reworded the text to be more overtly in line with evangelical beliefs and inerrantist apologetics (see especially the earliest editions of the NIV). But they can't be fully faulted for seeking an alternative to a translation that intentionally alienated them, even if it did so in the name of academic integrity.
@@MAMorenoi see your point about the rsv being a bait and switch for evangelical Christians who were familiar with the KJV. However, I do agree with the sentiment that creating another bible translation because the KJV successor doesn't say what you've been telling everyone the bible says is pretty silly
@@micahjones7837 Well, from their perspective, the RSV had simply gotten it wrong. The issue is that there was no singular concerted effort to offer the evangelical alternative. The New American Standard Bible of 1971 was the most direct response (being an unofficial revision of the ASV that took advantage of its recent entry into the public domain), but other committees decided to abandon the 400-year-old Tyndale tradition and start more or less from scratch. And then other committees didn't like the way that they did it and . . . well, that's how we ended up where we are.
Mr For Breakfast, this is a great video! As a former Christian I have gone back and read starting from Genesis, and I’ve been using NIV online (what I was raised on) and a physical copy of the KJV (which I was gifted- a funny story for another day) and was already noticing some big differences between them. Thanks for this in depth look! It’ll influence how/which version I read from now on.
My favorite part of this comment is that it implies a given name of "Religion". (If you weren't aware, his name is actually Andrew Henry. :P )
Catholic translations rule, and this is coming from an atheist. the NABre is great but the New Jerusalem Bible is extremely underrated. It has great notes and the language is beautiful, I recommend as my favorite non-literal translation
Same goes for the original Jerusalem Bible but the NJB is slightly definitely for study
@@10deximo41 I love the JB and the footnotes!
And never forget that Tolkien translated a little bit of the Jerusalem Bible!
Are you familiar with the translation by the great Catholic writer and scholar Ronald Knox, commonly referred to as the Knox Bible?
@@GuadalupePicasso i have but i have not read it yet but i would like to, thank you!
This reminds me of a wonderful professor of mine, Donald Sheehan. He loved languages, he loved poetry, and he was also deeply devout. When asked what was a good English translation of The Iliad he simply replied that there wasn't one. He felt the same way about the Psalms -- he always felt that poetry never translated well between languages.
I've always relied on the NRSV for bible translation but you gave the NAB a good case.
Keep it coming sir!
Knowledge is power!
One of my favorite examples of difference in translation is Isaiah 21:1
KJV: “The burden of the desert of the sea.
As whirlwinds in the south pass through; so it cometh from the desert, from a terrible land.”
NRSV: “The oracle concerning the wilderness of the sea.
As whirlwinds in the Negeb sweep on,
it comes from the desert,
from a terrible land.”
Actually, the whole of Isaiah 21 is translated quite differently in both versions. I’m not familiar with the Hebrew at all. I find this passage in the KJV, though, to be one of the most beautiful things ever put to pen in the English language. “The burden of the desert of the sea” goes hard, frankly. And it’s had a great deal of influence on English both religiously and otherwise. It contains “Babylon is fallen,” inspiration for the famous English Civil War song, and “the watchtower,” famous later among the Jehovah’s Witnesses. But it is also somewhat difficult to understand as a contemporary English speaker. This is one of the reasons I really like the Bible app, because I can swap between translations at ease and get a full picture of both the literal meaning and the literary significance on English more broadly. After all, I think there is no work more influential on English literature than the KJV. Being acquainted with it is a must for any student of Shakespeare, Blake, Milton, the founding fathers, etc.
Learning greek to read the bible and other sacred/historical texts would be so awesome that's such an awesome idea
A guy that comments in this channel has proposed this to other Christians. Unfortunately that's easier said than done as learning a foreign language that isnt used day to day basis is a daunting task. However, for people that have the intelligence to do as such, it seems a great goal in life. Learning for reading is much easier than fully learning everything.
@@Neomalthusiano Yeah I studied ancient greek in my time in uni and I will confidently say it was much harder than learning Mandarin Chinese. Not just because Chinese has very simple grammar and Greek has very complex grammar, but also it’s just easier to learn a living language. My Chinese teacher could at least give me feedback like “your translation makes you sound like a stereotypical southern peasant”. At most from my Greek professor I got stuff like “that’s not how you make an aorist participle”.
@@saldol9862 People don't say "that's Greek to me" for nothing, you know (lol).
But, truth be told, the French say "C'est du chinois", so you're between a rock and a hard place.
Yet, in defense of the "κοινὴ", I would argue that Mandarin having no alphabet, make things more difficult to look up in the dictionary by beginners (Pinyin, Wade-Giles and such have some limitations), characters give less clues on pronunciation (and vice versa), it's hard pronouncing tones without a teacher, and so on... and there's "wenyanwen". Well, actually, unless you spend decades, there isn't (lol).
On the other hand, if you like to communicate and have a teacher available, you can get much farther making sentences and learning it as a real language. And you really feel like it.
Koiné Greek seems that's to be felt more like an academic subject, than a language that was once powerful. Still, I'm curious if natives of languages with more complex grammar (like Russian) would find it less intimidating.
@@NeomalthusianoChristianity is like playing religion on easy-mode. Muslims and Jews learn the dead language(s) their texts are written in. Buddhists and Hindus learns at minimum enough to pray in. Christians can't even be bothered to read their single most important book in the language they already speak.
Just eat Communion Wafers, sing songs, charge their phone, and lie
Why only Greek? The majority of the texts Christians accept as Gods word was written in Hebrew. I recommend people start there.
always excellent explanations of every subject you present. knowledge and clarity and you try to put so much information into your work. i be to see each at least twice to catch 90%…thank you for your dedication.
Interesting!
For German language the most accurate is said to be the Elberfelder Bible.
Excited to learn about the English translations.
Thank you!
it is a Protestant translation
@ekesandras1481 Would you recommend another one? I did quite a lot of research a few years ago, and the Elberfelder was the nearest to the ancient languages.
@@ekesandras1481I do understand why this is noteworthy. The Elberfelder translation is also used by Catholic theologians
What makes the King James special is that it is a piece of art in itself. The way it is quoted throughout western lit and seaped into the english language make it almost a separate thing to also being the Bible. If you study plays or novels you need to read King James. Those phrases echo through time.
"Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror" is very understandable and clear but
"For now we see through a glass, darkly" is poetry in and of itself, and is much quoted and used
Is the king James actually poetic though, or is it just that the English is old and different and familiar, so it feels poetic. People were complaining about the KJV from the moment it was published, which makes me think that what makes it such “good literature” is that it’s just so ingrained culturally in to English. If we hadn’t been reading and quoting it for 500 years, would we really think it was so special? I think probably not
@@BobbyHill26 George Bernard Shaw said, “The translation was extraordinarily well done … and achieved a beautifully artistic result.” But you are allowed you opinion also.
As to is it just old and familiar, that could be charged at many things. If I wrote beowolf or hamlet today would they get anywhere, probably not.
@@BobbyHill26 The KJV was deliberately designed to be euphonic. It's supposed to sound pretty. It would sometimes choose the nicest-sounding language from among the handful of translations that preceded it.
See, for instance, Ecclesiastes 9.11. Here's how it sounded in the Bishops' Bible, of which the KJV was ostensibly a revision:
*So I turned me vnto other thinges vnder the sunne, & I sawe that in running it helpeth not to be swift, in battell it helpeth not to be strong, to feeding it helpeth not to be wyse, to riches it helpeth not to be a man of muche vnderstanding, to be had in fauour it helpeth not to be cunning: but that all lieth in tyme and fortune.*
Not bad, but rather matter of fact with little art. Now compare that to the KJV:
*I returned, and saw vnder the Sunne, That the race is not to the swift, nor the battell to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of vnderstanding, nor yet fauour to men of skil; but time and chance happeneth to them all.*
This far more flowery prose is mostly swiped from the Geneva Bible, which was the preferred choice for the layperson, if not the one they'd be hearing from the lectern in the Anglican liturgy. At other times, they weren't above swiping words from the Douay-Rheims Bible of the English Catholics, assuming they had a nice ring to them. And, of course, some it they produced themselves.
This prioritization of rhythm and euphony is something that has been largely lost in more recent translations, as it's assumed that most people now have the means and the literacy to use a translation at home and thus don't need something as memorable as the KJV, though some modern versions (like the ESV) do make a conscious decision to consider how it sounds when read aloud.
@@BobbyHill26Yes it is poetic. The translators intentionally read each line aloud to each other to determine which possible translation sounded best. One of those men was fluent in 19 languages. While many of them differed in their theological opinions, they all held faithfully to what they believed to be true.
@@BobbyHill26It is intentionally poetic. The KJV was meant to be read aloud to a still largely illiterate population of English parishioners.
The KJV is still the champion of all Biblical translations in the realm of preaching and exhortation for this purpose, imo.
Video is actually too short, great job!
I appreciate this video so much. Thanks for continuing to educate me! I look forward to all your videos.
The best is to learn a little Koine Greek and get a copy of both an English critical text translation (ESV or NASB, for instance) alongside a copy of the critical texts, and look at both. An interlinear, will work for that
Where would you find a Greek language course? Preferably on dvd.
@@yujiandou4658 Sorry. I don't use DVDs
@@yujiandou4658 The Great Courses, Greek 101 - Learning an Ancient Language, available as video direct download and DVD
That is fine for hobbyists who're really interested in translation, though I think many people who're not that into it can benefit from taking several recognised translations and comparing them together to get the gist of what the original text is saying
@@patrickdoyle8441 I see, thanks!
This is a stunning video. A real triumph in how informative and balanced it is. Wonderful stuff. Thank you!
Back in the late 2000s, there's the lolcat bible. It was glorious. May Ceiling Cat bless us all.
Omg I’m glad I’m not the only one who remembers this.
I'm more of a Basement Cat guy myself👹
Ceiling cat giveth the cheeseburger, ceiling cat taketh the cheeseburger away
Blessinz n cheezburgerz b apwn u! 🐱
Oh, wow, I haven't thought about that in a hot minute. Yes. Glorious is the right descriptor.
Superbly researched and presented. Excellent video.
Formidable video: bottom line is that translation is hard. Those of us who are multilingual have an instinctive understanding of that reality.
I can only sympathise with monoglot Christians (like the vast majority of English-speaking Americans) for whom, as the saying goes, "it's all Greek to (them)"...
One of your best videos, RFB! Your amazing objective takes on the translation that let's the translators do the talking is exactly what I would expect and you delivered. Thank you, more long form content pls!
I recently became aware of The Brick Bible, and it's pretty much all I need.
You mean Purity Bricks? 😮
I'm currently studying and translating the Book of Acts from Koine as part of a Classical Languages major, and looking through all the papyri, majuscules, miniscules, and scrolls (both in the Septuagint and other manuscripts (e.g., Codex Sinaiticus & Vaticanus)) and seeing how (in my case, Luke, or whoever wrote Luke-Acts) those texts interweave with each other always delights and suprises. Textual criticism of anthologies like the Bible, Quran or the Vedas, is massively important in my understanding of what I believe in and how I have natural, modern biases in my interpretations. Keep up the good work!
Do one for Quran translations pls 👉🏼👈🏼
I'd love to know this too
According to islamic dogma, the Quran literally cannot be translated. Translation is not considered possible.
Is the Quran in the original Arabic?
Tell that to the hundreds of translations out there...@@username65585
Yes, the Qur'an has been preserved in its original "Qur'anic Arabic" (predecessor of Classical and MSA), both in the language sense and also in spelling. However the script has changed to facilitate easier recitation (e.g Vowel markers, dots to differentiate different letters with the same shape, etc.)
This video is a treasure. Andrew, you are a gem.
This video was fantastic, thank you. I appreciate the scholarly and non partisan approach.
I was raised Jehovah’s Witness and I think you’d be fascinated by a study of their Bible. They make some extremely interesting and controversial translation choices. One thing that’s particularly curious is that they do not disclose who did the actual translation preferring to ‘let the translation speak for itself’ rather than have people scrutinize their (perhaps lack of) qualifications. One thing is certain, it’s very different from most modern translations
Very,very good work. Clearest way I have heard this explained anywhere. Well done!
The first translation I read cover to cover was the New Living Translation, which is a much more "beginner friendly" bible (which paraphrases into "modern English"). It actually helped me get through it as a newcomer, and only later when I was more interested in theology did I start reading more accurate translations.
Great summary! You fit a lot in that hour. Thank you. I remember taking two years of koine Greek in college. I never remotely struggled with anything academically as NT Greek.
ngl the section on the ESV makes out its translators to seem kinda pathetic and petty, but I also say that as a non-religious transgender person
as a religious transgender person, it is absolutely a petty decision.
they were translating with an agenda - not translating based on what it says, but translated based on what they want it to say.
Thanks, Andrew. A very interesting video. I thought when I saw how long this video was I might jump after a bit but I found the whole thing worth the time invested.
"NETS" and "The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls In English by Geza Vermes" are two books that take the oldest texts we have and translates them without bias and with a purely historical interpretation. You get a really good picture of what the original religion was intended to be before it was repeatedly altered by various religious and political figures.
Thanks for making this video. I’ve often pondered this question and was hoping for your insights in the matter. Another great breakfast.
Despite the dubious utility of such a thing, I would love to read a maximally formally equivalent translation of the Bible, it sounds like that would be hilarious
Maybe Google translate will be your friend here
Young's Literal Translation
As a translation student, I think you did a good job explaining the kinds of dilemmas translators face and the choices we have to make and justify. Great video!
I dont think I've ever raised my eyebrows as much as I did during the discussion of the ESV 😅
The ESV was primarily introduced as a way to solve problems in the NIV. Many who use the ESV were previously using the NIV and rarely touched the RSV.
The primarily reason many did not touch the RSV outside the USA is because the RSV is an American translation, and the words are often incorrectly spelt, or unusual to other English readers, whereas the NIV and ESV adapted themselves for point of sale more (the NRSV does adapt better to the different spellings depending on point of sale).
To give an example of global adjustments, when the ESV was released in the UK and Australia, it was first checked and edited for word meaning and spelling, including a non-red letter text for Australians. Before Australia there was only red letter text ESV. the RSV took longer to make global adjustments and so was not used as extensively outside the USA.
There's an excellent book titled "The Making of Biblical Womanhood" by Beth Allison Barr which explores (among many other topics) the ways the ESV was translated specifically to limit the role of women in conservative evangelical churches. I grew up in the PCA and the ESV was the only bible we used. Kids in Sunday school called the NIV the Not Inspired Version. The translation choices to keep women subjugated go much farther than he got into in this video.
Beth Allison Barr is a fantastic author and historian. Her books are fascinating and worth checking out! Just be prepared to get a little furious
@@JoelReid”Differently spelt” you mean.
@@waltascher Either
Wow I just started learning attic Greek on my own with the JACT textbooks (with the intention of learning koine soon after). I’ve been a big fan of your channel for a few years now, so for you to be offering classes right as I’m starting my journey into Greek feels like a true synchronicity! Really appreciate what you do, keep it up!
(Also really looking forward to a Classical Arabic class when you get around to it)
This is both beautiful and useful
This video is an amazing accomplishment. So much information, so well organized.
Watching this video after having seen Knowing Betters new video on sevent day adventists adds a whole new layer onto all those 19th century people attempting to use the bible to create new theology or seeking "the only truth" from it.
An absolute master class! I just started a Master of Religious Studies program and this info is invaluable. Thanks!
"Critical Apparatus" great name for a band
It can’t be overstated how much good you’re doing in the world man. Thank you.
You mean shouldn't be understated...or can't be overstated!
You have to go back 2+ years for another 50+ min video. This is going to be interesting!
I began watching with the expectation that despite my respect for you and interest in the subject, viewing would become a bit of a slog. WOW -- this exploration was riveting! I couldn't stop watching - you're an excellent Explainer. Thank you for providing much-needed context about each of the predominant English versions of the Bible! Although I won't be able to take the just-started class in Koine, I will register for the newsletter and see about future courses.
People who Biblical
watch anime 🤝 scholars
Understanding nuance of
translations and localizations
brilliant video, one of the few yt channels that is acessible to the wider public while keeping academic rigor and relevance.
What's your take on the NASB? Growing up on the ESV and NIV, the NASB has been a breath of fresh air, seeming to me, to be much more appropriately translated, even if it does have a good deal of Protestant bias.
Anecdotally, I'll say that when I've compared it to the NRSV, it largely agrees, but has more helpful ways of phrasing gender neutral passages, and the like.
I have a half decent understanding of Greek, and most of the time when I check with an interlinear, the NASB is pretty reliable.
One of my favourite videos you’ve ever made. Fascinating stuff! Would love to hear more about translations of other sacred or holy texts like the Qu’ran, the Vedas, ect.
Love this content. As an atheist raised Christian (UPCI), I have a fascination with the Bible and its translations from a secular perspective. More content like this please!
Weird question, and I do mean it genuinely, without malice intent:
If Atheist, why do you continue to let Religion consume such a piece of your life? I would think people who are Atheist, would be disinterested in hearing about God and religion any longer.
@bobSeigar If you're raised christian, it will always be a part of your identity. E.g. you will always be "ex christian". Also for most people, the friends they grew up with and their family, likely might still be christian, if you're in the USA there's not really any getting away from it.
Also one of the reasons why someone might become an atheist is because they are legitimately curious, maybe wanted to be a better christian, and learn more about christianity, maybe to defend it better, only to find out that the perfect NIV bible they grew up with isn't so perfect.
@@josiahls4859 So, you still allow the words of the Church to eat at your time, while Identifying yourself by what you are not, as opposed to what you are?
:( that's sad, but I appreciate your input.
@@bobSeigar So much of occidental art, literature, culture, and spoken language is biblically referential that refusing to engage with the Bible at all genuinely impedes one's ability to understand the past and communicate in the present, whatever your faith or lack thereof. As a secular humanist myself with no faith in any gods, I see value in religious studies for cultural literacy and a broader understanding the human condition.
Very interesting video! I would have appreciated you putting up snippets of the Greek/Hebrew being translated. You did it a little bit in the later parts of the video, but I think it would have been especially useful when comparing two English translations that used different source texts
24:20 _...Almah...Parthenos... Young Woman..._
Similar to Miss, Maiden, Mädchen, Mademoiselle, Señorita, Fräulein, and so on, implying youth, as these are often the diminutive forms of their older counterparts, Missus, Maid, Madam, Mädel (sp?), Señora, Frau, etc.
There are also connotations of single versus married, as, in much of Western society, women's place is defined by her marital status.
And that's also where we get the precursors to discussions of misgendering someone, but in a more age biased fashion.
Some women don't like to be referred to as ma'am because it implies age or Mrs. for its denotative meaning of marriage; conversely some women don't want to be called miss, because it implies a lack of age or status. Which is where Ms. came about, but it also hasn't been uniformly adopted.
*_Denotations are hard; connotations are harder._* 🤷♂️
But I digress. Don't attribute to miraculous virgin, parthenogenic birth that which can be the result of linguistic fallibilities.
So important that we have such conversations.
Surprised you didn't at least mention the Orthodox Study Bible.
Thanks for making this video, It's great to have all this information in one place!
I'm a Quaker. I read the KJV because it connects me to the language that was being read by generations of Friends before me (although our founders probably preferred the earlier Geneva Bible) as well as having the language that is most referenced throughout our culture. It's arguably the best translation for those purposes - but on those occasions when subtle nuances matter, then it's time to look to the same passage in the NRSV.
When I was a Christian, my favorite translation was the HCSB. To be honest, I don't really know how it's different from other translations. It seemed to contain much more context and detail than some other modern translations, but now I want to learn more about it. Great video as usual!
Gonna guess right now; it's definitely not the ESV.
He did his best to treat it neutrally, but yes, both the ESV and NIV were called out for the influence of conservative evangelicalism.
Ironic, as one evangelical scholar accused the NIV of being the most Gnostic-tinged major interpretation in its decisions.
@@cheuthoThe original translation stylist of the NIV was a self-confessed homosexual witch. Conservatives frequently refuse to use the NIV specifically for that reason.
@@belot217Interesting. Do you have a name or link for this?
This was an amazingly concise and useful video on Bible translation and I will definitely be sharing this with people!
I'm also excited about your Biblical Languages courses. I would definitely sign up for the Koine Greek course were it not during the workday.
The one i have is the Ecumenical translation of the the bible (TOB). It's a translation that aims to make a convergence between the Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox canon. Good stuff.
Before that i had a protestant one but it lacked way too many books and verses. I wanted to get the full bible experience. And i still have the non canon books to read afterwards.
Nice. I honestly wish translators would just drop the critical approach, and instead include as much as possible of the fullness of the New Testament traditions.
How did you know I went shopping for various Bible translations literally two days ago 😆 This is phenomenal, thank you
3:50 It is probably not entirely true that Koine Greek was the native language of all the gospel writers. The Greek used in the Gospel of Mark for instance shows many characteristics of having been written by someone whose first language was Semitic, probably Aramaic.
This is extremely informative! Thank you, sir
My KJ only grandfather was a Baptist pastor from the 1920s through the 1970s. He used to call the RSV the "devised version".
I suspect he probably wouldn't have appreciated having it pointed out that King James devised the King James version.
He sounds like a smart man!
@@bartolomeothesatyrNo he didn't. King James authorised the translation of the Bible. He didn't devise it, though he did provide some directions like not to translate "church" as "congregation".
Hahaha this sounds like my grandfather also, the Baptists really do seem to love the KJV
@religionforbreakfast thank you for your ability to deliver rough topics to the general population
Grew up with King James. Didn’t even know there were others until high school
people do not want you to know that. Just like the vast vast majority of Christians have no idea about the other gospels.
There’s nothing wrong with KJV for use as a personal Bible for spiritual edification.
The problem is that churches which use the KJV often have very dogmatic beliefs about it, or believe that it is the only divinely inspired English translation.
Brilliant video. Extremely interesting. Time flew like that. ❤
Literal translation example would be the irish for hello. "Dia duit" literally translated it means "god be with you"
Haven't heard that used since the nuns! It's more likely to be: 'Hey, aon sceal agat?'
kind of ironic since "goodbye" is just a short concatenation of that same phrase in english (well, 'ye' instead of 'you')
The literal translation of thank you in Russian, спасибо (spasibo), is a contraction of спаси Бог (spasi Bog) meaning “save God”, or in other words God save you.
This religion essay/lesson is not only enough for breakfast, but for a hearty lunch also.
This channel balances well with their respect. To me personally, a presentation is good as long as they just don't mock anything pointlessly, for I have a pittance of respect to religions, but I don't care for pointless silliness. I absolutely love how concisely scholarly this channel is (I'm a sucker for scientific approach, sorry). And I can enjoy good data presentation without humorous inserts.
Oxford Annotated NRSV No question. Enough said
But i really want one with the new testament apocrypha included as well. If medieval forgeries of relics are important to the to history of the church, then so are those apocrypha.
Petty differences between denimonations on what should be canonical just aren't interesting
It’s an amazing study Bible. I heard the 6th edition may come out next year
I use the SBL NRSVUE study bible. Oxfords main competitor lol
You can study tumblr instead
@@TheSolPhoenix I have the SBL NRSVUE too. I looking forward to the 6th edition to the Oxford Study Bible. I think they will use the NRSVUE too. This way I can compare them.