This guy is a Serious engineer. It's common for an engineer to know one "art" really well, but to be adept at electrical, mechanical, and software is very impressive. I hope some technology company has been smart enough to hire you. Resume? Point them at this video! I tip my hat to you, sir!
I agree this guy is one hell of a damn good engineer. He deserves to be very successful in his career, just on the basis of what he has done so far. If he can find allies that can help with the software to provide a system and human interface to his 5-axis prototype, it can come into its own as a truly usable tool for so many people. And his place in technology history will be assured.
I'm thrilled to follow along with this. The community NEEDS more edge-case/off-the-beaten-track projects like this actually getting documented with more detail than just pointing a webcam at the final product! Thanks for sharing!
I completely agree. I am doing my best in that too by developing a supportless(mostly) non-planar slicer that can work with the low clearence of most printers of around 10°. I can't wait to share it. Will most likely end up doing a devlog blog on it. In the mean time I can't wait to see other projects like this. Or even Chronic Mechatronic's ultea low tech 50$ 3d printer.
I did not know about your channel until today and I thought about this problem in the past and I have been busy on other things but I took inspirations from CNC machine center where the head moved around and went huh why don't we do that with 3d printer and it comes with some issues of course but I use to work on hydraulics going all the way up 4000 psi at 100 gpm and we used a positive displacement screw pump and I thought about how we could use that same tech to move it all around you could print upside down if you really wanted to but the pump would just be the hot end you would still need a extruder. But it would work you would have to prime it and preheat and get the rest of the gunk out possible have to take it apart to clean it every once in a while but it’s there. The idea is for anyone and I believe it will work ultimately in the right hands with the right mind. I hope this finds someone else who has way more time then I do in the open source community you guys have been a huge help in problems or helping me fil in gaps of knowledge I have.
I was just wondering how you'd been going with this project, and here comes a brilliant and detailed update! Thanks for sharing your curiosity and challenges with us, it's fascinating and inspiring.
Beautiful project! Not sure if it would work but as a thought maybe you can replace only a few of the ball bearings on each ring with copper balls of the same diameter? That way the electricity would follow the path of least resistance through those balls but you get the better wear resistance from stainless too. Not sure if it's necessary or even helps tbh but it looks a bit like the mechanism acts like a thrust bearing too and I think this would help
Increible trabajo Mariano! me encanto tu proyecto... Creo que esto, sumado a la Inteligencia Artificial puede realmente darle el proximo futuro a la Impresion 3D. Slicers con IA que mapeen superficies y logren conseguir los mejores caminos para imprimir segun la pieza, dandole al usuario la eleccion si quiere velocidad, mejores resultados, imprimir sin soportes... El proximo paso seria mejorar la conexion con los motores que terminan poniendo ruido en las piezas impresas. Y en 2-5 años tenemos impresoras capaces de emular cualquier pieza con gran detalle y bajo costo
Very interesting. I had a similar issue with klipper and an acs606 driver from leadshine, the axis keep on shifting in one direction while printing. I discarded that driver thinking I fried it (I connected it to power on reverse), but the replacement I bought has the same issue. It worked just fine in Linuxcnc. There must be something weird with klipper and the timing of the switching of the dir / pul signals.
@@engineerunleashed - Vortex pipes like this are in high demand by adherents of the Victorian Hydrologist Viktor Schauberger. Here is the work of a contemporary researcher. ruclips.net/video/i-Eljv7SneA/видео.html And I am working on some smaller scale applications, so any more advances on your part would be most welcome.
Hello I am a young pre-college creator with an engineering mindset similar to yours, and I was wondering if you would be willing to share any collegiate degrees or qualifications you might have or that you think are worth getting to design something like what you have designed here. thanks, and have a great day
Funny enough, my background is Software Engineering. I would have gone for electronics or aeronautics, but that was a bit expensive to study and had less market value in Argentina when I was young. Here I am 20 years later trying to find my way into my true passion but with no formal education on the subject.
Hm 128 microstepping would make torque so low as it would skip steps by a whole lot. I wonder if you was going backwards somehow, since "2 microsteps" looks like something that would come with way too high microstepping.
duet's "128 microstepping" isn't truly 128, it's 16 microstepping with interpolation on the driver side. From what I remember it changes dynamically depending on speed requirements, it's just for the transitions between the "real" microsteps
All hail open-source. The fact that people can achieve this in their own workspace is mind-blowing . No more waiting for sponsorships and funding - think it - build it. Incredible.
Thank you! yep! I won't wait for sponsorships or funding but they're happening as I progress anyways, so that's awesome too because I can probably work more on this on the future :)
You know what's beautiful about the 3d printing community? It's always evolving and the reason is the "community". Every now and then we see some individual/company (mostly individuals) give back to community by releasing their developments as open source.
That's the goal! I just want to iron out the issues first so others don't struggle as much, and then I'll release the frame as open source. I will be ecstatic if just one other person on the planet builds something I created.
@@engineerunleashed i'm working in 3d assistance and support, i just doing this because i love this world if you release that stay sure then i build it, just for information how did you resolve the "problem" about 3 axis slicer?
You are losing steps when switching driver directions. Read the manual for the driver, there is a minimum delay time before you can send step pulses after changing the direction signal. Change your duet stepper timing config to increase that delay.
5 axis has been popular in the cnc milling world for so long now. It's about time the 3d printing world caught up. Yeah, they will be more expensive for hobbyists, but I'm sure people will be willing to buy them.
@@-Kal- 99.9% of the time its superfluous. a gimmick. theres virtually no advantage for a lot of extra complexity. printers arent worried about drilling accurate holes at specific angles and depths, they are ADDITIVE. the complexity of slicing software, of toolpath strategies... tool collision avoidance... of simply deciding which way to slice something... spend five minutes with even standard 3 axis machines. you are concerned about completely different aspects that are NOT applicable to printing. have you ever opened EVERY setting on your slicer? fiddled with EVERYTHING? hundreds of different things to alter, and thats before you have even sliced it... now multiply that by 3, 4... how many more options are you suddenly presented with? the software requirements alone are mind-bending. your average user wants to hit "print", not spend months figuring out a suitable strategy to slice an image so it can print... get enough failures with plain old 2.5d as it is... the only use i can see for multi axis printing is to make propellers. can make a core with lengthwise strands for tensile strength, then come in and wrap it with an outer skin at right angles to hold it together and smooth it out. again, write the slicer that will actually DO that... simply adding a few moves to existing code isnt proving anything... you need something that can keep track of what its printed, where its printed, how its printed... do you specify particular orientations? or let the slicer do it? how do you select elements you want with specific properties? suddenly the need for the information to be part of the file itself is important... and suddenly the cad, the drawing side of things has to change to accomodate the feature as well... integration on so many levels... and then theres cost.... go get a quote for say, "bobcad"... some 5 axis milling software... try a demo. see how complex it is...
@paradiselost9946 I agree that the slicer will be the most challenging part. I wouldn't want to develop it myself. Post processing gcode is more my speed. I doubt we'll ever see a slicer with 5 axis options equivalent to Fusion 360, let alone the most hard-core CAM. I guess I envision a simple 5 axis slicer working like this: you start your print on a base plane, the build plate. In your slicer you create planes slicing through your model at whatever angle you need. The printer will print as much as it can in the first orientation then tilt and rotate to print from your sliced workplane. The slicer would need to run a solver to make sure the print is possible with the chosen planes. For a proof of concept, a Blender script could slice the model with planes, storing the position and orientation of the pieces. The pieces of the model are sliced with a 3 axis slicer, then a third script would put the gcode together, positioning the bed relative to the slicing plane. If someone sent me a 5 axis printer I'd happily do that much, and I'm some some devs will write a basic slicer eventually. I think the appeal of 5 axis 3d printing is simply that it's interesting. The 3d printing hobby scene is mostly for fun, as far as I can tell. Maybe it's superfluous to use 5 axis when you could use 3 axis with supports, but people already use 3d printers for problems that could be solved with duct tape. I think people will want 5 axis.
You are reading my mind @-Kal- That's how I envisioned it but the points @paradiselost9946 mention are totally correct. Lets get the ball rolling! the open source community is amazing, I'm sure someone else in the planet want to spend free time chasing this as myself. I just want to do my bit hoping it's somehow useful for someone other than me to start playing around with the idea...
@@paradiselost9946 you have to remember though, Alot of the complexity in 4, 5 axis, etc is also in regards to tooling. just think about how much ball endmills changes orientations and then you got complete special form cutters. once it's figured out, it's only the nozzle you'd worry about so imo it would be simpler still. of course it seems too difficult for it to be worth it, but id argue thats how alot of things are when they are first developed. End case usefulness is a subject of opinion. Your propeller example is already enough of a reason to keep developing this to me
He's back! Glad to see people aren't sleeping on how great this is. We're seeing the future of 3D printing being forged in real time. This isn't going to hit production any time soon due to adhesion issues on large models, but it ABSOLUTELY will one day because the ability to avoid supports is simply that valuable
Nice work ! 5 years ago I did add 4-th rotational axis to a Delta printer and make it work with Machinekit - which is more suited for this kind of kinematics and have some build-in support of it. It was a big fun, but unfortunately hardware part - was an easy part, next big roadblock will be G-Code generation for additional axis, currently some slicers just scratching a surface of non-planar printing. If you need some help with Klipper or with hardware - feel free to ping me, will gladly help you to move forward.
Possibly the second biggest benefit to your printer is the potential to utilize a *square opening nozzle* since you can overcome the x,y coordinate directionality limitation/compromise of traditional printers that require a circular opening to accommodate the non x,y coordinate movements. I'd love to see what this produces.
very interesting and promising! While the application of this may be niche, I hope you don't get discouraged by comments on how this is superfluous and overengineered. Yes, it is overengineered for the demos you made, but there is an engineering problem out there that this could be a solution to! right away, I can see that this has excellent potential at handling overhangs. Many solutions for overhangs exist already, like printing at an angle or printing subassemblies, but this could have the advantages of angled printing in every direction as required, without the need for assembly. As others have also pointed out, printing a few layers perpendicular to the layers of the whole print, perhaps in the core or on the outside, could provide a huge increase in tensile and torsion strength of the finished piece - I am very curious to see 5-ax strength test prints!
Most of the comments are really positive! I was afraid of the feedback too, but I think most of us understand that this won't be perfect. It's a really difficult problem for a single person to resolve. Some day, something like this will be commercially viable. I think that day is not any time soon, but it will happen and I wanted to do my bit. Thanks for the support!
A. Electroplate nickel "BB's" with copper for better voltage/current transfer w/o causing resistance (crosman sells copper plated 4.5mm "BB's") B. See if you can get a firm spring (like a recoil spring from a pistol spring) to apply tension on the bed rotational bearing, you can tighten, then the spring will allow slight flex and maintain good contact C. Ingenious design!
Curious: What is the reason for this? What do you wish to achieve with the 4th axis over 4? The demo prints don't tell me about the advantages of the 5th axis, especially since I'm not sure I understand correctly that there is no correction for the z-axis for the tilt axis? Or is the slicing just the next step in the journey to a true 3d-not-2.5d-printer?
Check out 4th axis quick change machining fixturing. your C axis assembly is similar to some ive seen. It could be a very repeatable option for the C axis and bed
True that!! I am still amazed the plastic worm gears can do this. Honestly, I didn't have much faith considering the poor rigidity, but seems to do "good enough" for me to move to the slicing problem.
If you do have problems with your rotary union using stainless steel bearings, i have a design that is used in my industry for our rotating turrets. They transfer 480V to the servo motors that run the turret rotation so its long term robust. I know youre not pushing anything near 480V through those ball bearings so id like to think you wont ever have any problems with pitting or deterioration of them, but if you do happen to notice wear long term, i will gladly share how its done at the industrial level
Thanks a lot!! I've ordered same pieces in copper for now (just in case stainless steal fails), but I can't wait to see if anybody re-designs and improves anything from this!
I think you should move away from those Nema23, go back to perhaps high performance nema17 with standard drivers. I think you have and you are going to lose a lot of time to make those giant steppers work. I mean even very quick machines like the vzbots use LDO-42STH47-2504AC. If you need performance you could run them at 48V. I also noticed your white belts, are they noname or special ? Maybe you should move to more standard Gates belts. I think you’re already thinking about speed too early, you should try aiming for a perfectly working machine without relying on 128 microsteps first. I’m very critical but I think your work is awesome (especially the amount of work already required to get that printing) and I’m just thinking of ways to solve the huge layer shift problems !
I think I will have to move to nema17 as well. If I want to open source this I can't leave the big motors, it's an added complication that nobody really needs. You're totally right there! I just had the motors and the controllers laying around and I was planning to make a "really fast" 3-axis printer. But some other people on the community already tackled that problem with better ideas than that. It's kind of a legacy decision...
Subscribed! I am curious though, why not make the printhead axis pivot instead of the bed, and then just have the bed rotate while staying stationary? This would give you much more surface area to work with, and the weight would not increase as the plastic builds up causing the pivot gears being strained.
It's kind of a trade off... what you propose has some benefits, and some people tried that as well, but my intention was to always print "upwards". If I rotate the printhead I will need to deal with the effects of gravity over the hanging plastic and manage to add some support material beforehand too. Does that make sense? I thought this approach was simpler, but maybe I am missing something. Time will tell!
A sugestion... I see your are using two spurgears and two worm gears to control de round motion of the printed part as it's being printed. I believe you could implement a system of steel cables os even belts attached to the middle of the platarform for the printed part and with an motor at the top of the machine (3D printer). This way you could have less wear and maybe a better mechanical advantage. What I noticed in the video is that each side of the "U" plataform seems to be moving in slighly different speeds or lengths, in other words, the "U" platform seems to disalign as it is moving the printed part. Keep up the great work. Your machine is really cool and interesting.
yes you're right! One of the problems with calibrating this is that I can't really tell if the right and left side of A is at the exact same position. I have something in mind for that. But your idea does make a lot of sense too! I'll keep that in mind, thanks for the comment!
Nice work. I appreciate all the hard work it takes to innovate and create. I know it can feel like an endless list of struggles and not always know where it is going. Your work is here is part of what will change the future of 3d printing. Way to go!
Outstanding Project Result. I need to print Model Train Parts and have wanted 5 axis for years. But now I see it working. For small parts it looks perfect. But I would have to build the whole machine, not just modify my CR10S Pro. I was thinking a table top 2 axis component to sit on top of the Y axis Table. Like on a Milling Machine. You approach is different but does achieve the objective. Great effort thank you for sharing. Dennis in Virginia USA
this is awesome, this machine ask for a creation of a machining program like the ones used for metal, imagine doing a box with horizontal lines and then adding vertical lines outside the box in all its perimeter for example, that would make the parts totally stronger.
Im developing an open source plugin for grasshopper that can generate multi planar gcode.. We are actually working on implement that to a 5 axis gcode generation. Take a look in the last videos that ive uploaded. Congratulations amazing work!
this is a really solid build and design. love the setup. If I can get one working properly, would you care to deploy a metal printing print head on your 5 axis system?
I can do that too, but I wanted to use my old Duet. That may change in the future, seems like adding another board could be my only option if I don't nail down the problem as it stands.
finnaly invented. when i know about CORE XY sistem i was thinking hey is not just 2D X and Y plane thic can be done in diferent style upside dnow, laterla etc. and ther was hey 5 axis CNC. Instead of remove material. 5 axis 3D print is puting material.
Can you describe, or show a shape that can be made on a 5A3DPrinter, that cant be made on a 3DPrinter? And please dont go into the weeds about a stronger parts, speed, supports etc I understand those benefits.... What SHAPE can be made on 5a that CANT be made on 3a?
Wow this is so interesting! Regarding the layer shifting and microsteps - I might be misunderstanding something, but my imediate instinct is that it's like a cumulating "rounding error", for lack of a better term. Like, when the microsteps are set to a lower value, when the motor wants to move from say position "1.2" to position "1.5", but the low microsteps setting means it's only allow it to move in "0.2" increments, then it can only move to "1.4" or "1.6". Whereas larger microstep number means (if I understand correctly) a higher "resolution", so it can move in say "0.02" increments instead, so it can reach "1.48" or "1.52" which is much closer to where it wants to be. If the difference from where it wants to be to where it actually goes to is large enough, it will cause the shifting you see. This makes me wonder if you could potentially solve the issue by adjusting gear ratios in certain places, because they might be amplifying those small discrepancies to a point where it becomes a problem. That's just my imediate instinct though, and I might be wildly misunderstanding what microsteps actually mean 😅
Como andas papá? Otros pensaran que es un ingles malo, pero yo note ese Argentino desde el principio. Proyectazo loco, segui para delante que es realmente impresionante. Felicitaciones 🟦⬜☀⬜🟦 ---- ⭐⭐⭐
3d printing is just cnc with a glue gon on the end instead of an endmill. It may be cost prohibitive for the hobbyist, but using off the shelf cnc hardware and adapting a hotend onto the spindle axis may yield a more rigid and precise result.
I love the concept, but just a tip, that nozzle probe cannot stay if you want the printer to go fast. The end of the nozzle being able to move around is not going to be conducive to any kind of good print quality. Even some solution to lock the toolhead would yield significant results. ~someone who's been screwing with printers for way too long
Awesome project! From what I see, it might be better to keep the axis of rotation stationary, and move the interior chassis holding the print bed “up/down”(inward/outward) instead of moving the rotation parts up and down. This will allow you to have a constant axis of rotation throughout the print, rather than adjusting the rotation axis up and down as you change the Z axis.
This is an amazing achievement. I am an experienced builder of 3D printers. Yet this is extremely complicated, so I will never attempt this. The slicer, yes, that is of course still a huge problem to get right. Congratulations on this result.
I loved your project, you have done a great job and I am sure that in the future it can be implemented in some way to improve the quality of 3D prints, but I see a problem that is difficult to solve and that is the limit distance between the base and the extruder, since if the piece is very high and separates itself too much from the base laterally, the bending of the piece will cause printing failures.
Could the problem be some rounding error? This would explain why finer microsteps lower the error. Try using absolute G-Code coordinates as an easy test because the rounding error should not add up in the case of absolute coordinates.
with 5 axis CNC mills you usually have some kinematic lookup table to offset the Shift of the Position of the origin point when moving the additional axis. would guess that effect is what you see on the prints.
I'm assuming the white belts use steel wire cores. Should probably swap them for normal gates powergrip with kevlar thread cores instead, especially considering the small pulleys you're using on the direction changes, it may fatigue the steel wires and have them break pretty fast. Usually steel core belts aren't work the higher temperature advantages in a machine where most structural parts are made of printed thermoplastics.
You need to write a RTCP function that calculates where the XYZ points move when rotaries are turned. These are usually matrix calculations using the machine kinematics. This is how a 5-axis milling machine works. In standard G-code, the function is called G43.4 and with vectors it’s G43.5. Then you could use a standard slicer and manually add those angles, the part shape should stay the same.
Why are using external drivers instead of TMC2660s, if you use the build in drivers, it will be easier. The other thing you can do is use expansion pins -- duet 2+expansion board have support for 2 additional expansion drivers -- if you need to use the expansion drivers for current reasons, you can use those -- the 2 expansion drivers can be connected to the CONN_LCD (lcd header) -- you shouldn't need to hard code anything at that point
I will certainly look into that, thanks for the tip! The reason is just to drive bigger motors in X and Y, but lets agree I don't need them to be that big either...
first off: you can get modern TMC drivers and drive them straight from SPI (without step pins etc) i feel like if i were to open the cad file for this printer, my PC would just blow up violently also some things: klipper and octoprint is cursed, i feel like you could make some cool scripts with mainsail and visualizations i also think the printer is looking truly amazing, 5 axis 3D printing really needs a reason tho, and i feel like that reason is reinforced 3D printing (plastic with wire in the middle) another thing i would like to see in the future is harmonic/cycloidal drives for the rotational axis. as this printer likely isnt something people are gonna build as their first printer, it makes sense using precision printed parts. belts can work quite well imo, would be a big jump to a proper gearbox, so why not a 3D printed harmoic/cycloidal drive for now ^^ all in all, the whole project makes me very enthusiastic, and i cant wait to see the community developing around it and to maybe hop into it at aswell :P
This guy is a Serious engineer. It's common for an engineer to know one "art" really well, but to be adept at electrical, mechanical, and software is very impressive. I hope some technology company has been smart enough to hire you. Resume? Point them at this video! I tip my hat to you, sir!
I agree this guy is one hell of a damn good engineer. He deserves to be very successful in his career, just on the basis of what he has done so far. If he can find allies that can help with the software to provide a system and human interface to his 5-axis prototype, it can come into its own as a truly usable tool for so many people. And his place in technology history will be assured.
I'm thrilled to follow along with this. The community NEEDS more edge-case/off-the-beaten-track projects like this actually getting documented with more detail than just pointing a webcam at the final product! Thanks for sharing!
I completely agree. I am doing my best in that too by developing a supportless(mostly) non-planar slicer that can work with the low clearence of most printers of around 10°. I can't wait to share it. Will most likely end up doing a devlog blog on it. In the mean time I can't wait to see other projects like this. Or even Chronic Mechatronic's ultea low tech 50$ 3d printer.
this is like the third video where i find a comment from you :D youtube makes me follow you.
Koriwi
@@KilianGosewisch RUclips knows what we watch A LITTLE TOO WELL
@@U_Geek Sweet babies, I'd better subscribe so I catch your progress. My delta is just itching for some decent nonplanar action!
Idk why, works fine with 3axis tbh
Z hop is one thing, but now you need “Swing hop” with the angles lol 😂
I did not know about your channel until today and I thought about this problem in the past and I have been busy on other things but I took inspirations from CNC machine center where the head moved around and went huh why don't we do that with 3d printer and it comes with some issues of course but I use to work on hydraulics going all the way up 4000 psi at 100 gpm and we used a positive displacement screw pump and I thought about how we could use that same tech to move it all around you could print upside down if you really wanted to but the pump would just be the hot end you would still need a extruder. But it would work you would have to prime it and preheat and get the rest of the gunk out possible have to take it apart to clean it every once in a while but it’s there. The idea is for anyone and I believe it will work ultimately in the right hands with the right mind.
I hope this finds someone else who has way more time then I do in the open source community you guys have been a huge help in problems or helping me fil in gaps of knowledge I have.
Wow that bearing communication component is so sick ❤❤❤ love the hard work
I was just wondering how you'd been going with this project, and here comes a brilliant and detailed update! Thanks for sharing your curiosity and challenges with us, it's fascinating and inspiring.
Thanks!! Took a while though, But I'm still enthusiastic about this idea! Next one should come out quicker! :)
You can definitely print-in-place those cable chains.
I may try that, my fingers where not happy about the assembly!
What an extremely cool project!
about the microstep thing. Changing the step_pulse_duration parameter might help.
I will try that! thanks for the tip!
Beautiful project! Not sure if it would work but as a thought maybe you can replace only a few of the ball bearings on each ring with copper balls of the same diameter? That way the electricity would follow the path of least resistance through those balls but you get the better wear resistance from stainless too. Not sure if it's necessary or even helps tbh but it looks a bit like the mechanism acts like a thrust bearing too and I think this would help
Great point! I have to see if I can source some copper balls somehow, couldn't find them in Aliexpress though
@@engineerunleashed McMaster carr perhaps?
Increible trabajo Mariano! me encanto tu proyecto...
Creo que esto, sumado a la Inteligencia Artificial puede realmente darle el proximo futuro a la Impresion 3D.
Slicers con IA que mapeen superficies y logren conseguir los mejores caminos para imprimir segun la pieza, dandole al usuario la eleccion si quiere velocidad, mejores resultados, imprimir sin soportes...
El proximo paso seria mejorar la conexion con los motores que terminan poniendo ruido en las piezas impresas. Y en 2-5 años tenemos impresoras capaces de emular cualquier pieza con gran detalle y bajo costo
This is incredible. Amazing work, cant wait to see what happens next
Thank you!!
Very interesting. I had a similar issue with klipper and an acs606 driver from leadshine, the axis keep on shifting in one direction while printing. I discarded that driver thinking I fried it (I connected it to power on reverse), but the replacement I bought has the same issue. It worked just fine in Linuxcnc. There must be something weird with klipper and the timing of the switching of the dir / pul signals.
Yes I suspect the problem may have to do with that, someone else also suggested I should look into it. So soon I find the problem I'll report back!
I think this will be my next printer once it's on the market........
I was planning to open source it, would you build one? Or would you prefer to wait for a commercial option?
Keep up the excellent work!!
Thanks, will do!
Awesome work. Please can you talk about the Schauberger vortex pipes that you showed printing at the beginning of the video?
It looks fancy, but it's just a straight shape I extruded in Fusion and then mangled with it by adding the A and C rotations post slicing.
@@engineerunleashed - Vortex pipes like this are in high demand by adherents of the Victorian Hydrologist Viktor Schauberger. Here is the work of a contemporary researcher.
ruclips.net/video/i-Eljv7SneA/видео.html
And I am working on some smaller scale applications, so any more advances on your part would be most welcome.
i want to buy one. finish this we are all waiting to buy it!
Do you think there is a commercial angle? I am planning to open source this so the community can start playing around with the concept.
@@engineerunleashed yes
Nice work!
GG
Hello
I am a young pre-college creator with an engineering mindset similar to yours, and I was wondering if you would be willing to share any collegiate degrees or qualifications you might have or that you think are worth getting to design something like what you have designed here. thanks, and have a great day
Funny enough, my background is Software Engineering. I would have gone for electronics or aeronautics, but that was a bit expensive to study and had less market value in Argentina when I was young. Here I am 20 years later trying to find my way into my true passion but with no formal education on the subject.
A- Axis 👍🏽
Hm 128 microstepping would make torque so low as it would skip steps by a whole lot. I wonder if you was going backwards somehow, since "2 microsteps" looks like something that would come with way too high microstepping.
duet's "128 microstepping" isn't truly 128, it's 16 microstepping with interpolation on the driver side. From what I remember it changes dynamically depending on speed requirements, it's just for the transitions between the "real" microsteps
Yes, but unless it's a perfect sine I believe there is still torque penalty
I didn't think about the effect on torque, great point to keep in mind. The 128 microsteps it's a temporary patch though (I hope)
All hail open-source. The fact that people can achieve this in their own workspace is mind-blowing . No more waiting for sponsorships and funding - think it - build it. Incredible.
Thank you! yep! I won't wait for sponsorships or funding but they're happening as I progress anyways, so that's awesome too because I can probably work more on this on the future :)
It's always been like this, just a lot less accessible without the internet
You know what's beautiful about the 3d printing community? It's always evolving and the reason is the "community". Every now and then we see some individual/company (mostly individuals) give back to community by releasing their developments as open source.
That's the goal! I just want to iron out the issues first so others don't struggle as much, and then I'll release the frame as open source. I will be ecstatic if just one other person on the planet builds something I created.
@@engineerunleashed i'm working in 3d assistance and support, i just doing this because i love this world if you release that stay sure then i build it, just for information how did you resolve the "problem" about 3 axis slicer?
It is incredibly interesting to see how 3D-printer hardware continues to be light-years ahead of the software.
Yes, probably because the software will be more difficult. But I'll tackle that somehow (I hope)
@@engineerunleashedI believe autodesk has a plugin for 3D printing in the fifth axis for their milling software.
You are losing steps when switching driver directions. Read the manual for the driver, there is a minimum delay time before you can send step pulses after changing the direction signal. Change your duet stepper timing config to increase that delay.
Will try! Thanks a lot for the tip!!
This is the real future of FDM printers.
5 axis has been popular in the cnc milling world for so long now. It's about time the 3d printing world caught up. Yeah, they will be more expensive for hobbyists, but I'm sure people will be willing to buy them.
@@-Kal- 99.9% of the time its superfluous. a gimmick. theres virtually no advantage for a lot of extra complexity.
printers arent worried about drilling accurate holes at specific angles and depths, they are ADDITIVE.
the complexity of slicing software, of toolpath strategies... tool collision avoidance... of simply deciding which way to slice something...
spend five minutes with even standard 3 axis machines. you are concerned about completely different aspects that are NOT applicable to printing.
have you ever opened EVERY setting on your slicer? fiddled with EVERYTHING? hundreds of different things to alter, and thats before you have even sliced it... now multiply that by 3, 4... how many more options are you suddenly presented with?
the software requirements alone are mind-bending. your average user wants to hit "print", not spend months figuring out a suitable strategy to slice an image so it can print... get enough failures with plain old 2.5d as it is...
the only use i can see for multi axis printing is to make propellers. can make a core with lengthwise strands for tensile strength, then come in and wrap it with an outer skin at right angles to hold it together and smooth it out.
again, write the slicer that will actually DO that... simply adding a few moves to existing code isnt proving anything... you need something that can keep track of what its printed, where its printed, how its printed...
do you specify particular orientations? or let the slicer do it? how do you select elements you want with specific properties? suddenly the need for the information to be part of the file itself is important... and suddenly the cad, the drawing side of things has to change to accomodate the feature as well... integration on so many levels...
and then theres cost.... go get a quote for say, "bobcad"... some 5 axis milling software... try a demo. see how complex it is...
@paradiselost9946 I agree that the slicer will be the most challenging part. I wouldn't want to develop it myself. Post processing gcode is more my speed. I doubt we'll ever see a slicer with 5 axis options equivalent to Fusion 360, let alone the most hard-core CAM.
I guess I envision a simple 5 axis slicer working like this: you start your print on a base plane, the build plate. In your slicer you create planes slicing through your model at whatever angle you need. The printer will print as much as it can in the first orientation then tilt and rotate to print from your sliced workplane. The slicer would need to run a solver to make sure the print is possible with the chosen planes.
For a proof of concept, a Blender script could slice the model with planes, storing the position and orientation of the pieces. The pieces of the model are sliced with a 3 axis slicer, then a third script would put the gcode together, positioning the bed relative to the slicing plane.
If someone sent me a 5 axis printer I'd happily do that much, and I'm some some devs will write a basic slicer eventually.
I think the appeal of 5 axis 3d printing is simply that it's interesting. The 3d printing hobby scene is mostly for fun, as far as I can tell. Maybe it's superfluous to use 5 axis when you could use 3 axis with supports, but people already use 3d printers for problems that could be solved with duct tape. I think people will want 5 axis.
You are reading my mind @-Kal-
That's how I envisioned it but the points @paradiselost9946 mention are totally correct. Lets get the ball rolling! the open source community is amazing, I'm sure someone else in the planet want to spend free time chasing this as myself. I just want to do my bit hoping it's somehow useful for someone other than me to start playing around with the idea...
@@paradiselost9946 you have to remember though, Alot of the complexity in 4, 5 axis, etc is also in regards to tooling. just think about how much ball endmills changes orientations and then you got complete special form cutters. once it's figured out, it's only the nozzle you'd worry about so imo it would be simpler still. of course it seems too difficult for it to be worth it, but id argue thats how alot of things are when they are first developed. End case usefulness is a subject of opinion. Your propeller example is already enough of a reason to keep developing this to me
Because you efforted through the mayhem, boosted innovation, and thus making you a world class local hero for open source, dude, man, brotherrrr!!
I always wanted to open source something! it's so rewarding to read the support comments! Thank you!!
He's back!
Glad to see people aren't sleeping on how great this is. We're seeing the future of 3D printing being forged in real time.
This isn't going to hit production any time soon due to adhesion issues on large models, but it ABSOLUTELY will one day because the ability to avoid supports is simply that valuable
El acento argentino es inconfundible jaja. Bien ahí hermano, muy buen proyecto
amazing work !!
Thanks a lot! I saw some of your videos in the past, your work is superb as well!
Nice work ! 5 years ago I did add 4-th rotational axis to a Delta printer and make it work with Machinekit - which is more suited for this kind of kinematics and have some build-in support of it. It was a big fun, but unfortunately hardware part - was an easy part, next big roadblock will be G-Code generation for additional axis, currently some slicers just scratching a surface of non-planar printing. If you need some help with Klipper or with hardware - feel free to ping me, will gladly help you to move forward.
Possibly the second biggest benefit to your printer is the potential to utilize a *square opening nozzle* since you can overcome the x,y coordinate directionality limitation/compromise of traditional printers that require a circular opening to accommodate the non x,y coordinate movements. I'd love to see what this produces.
Yes this should be explored for the 4th axis. The 5th axis...? Not sure how useful this is in most 3d printing applications.
very interesting and promising! While the application of this may be niche, I hope you don't get discouraged by comments on how this is superfluous and overengineered. Yes, it is overengineered for the demos you made, but there is an engineering problem out there that this could be a solution to!
right away, I can see that this has excellent potential at handling overhangs. Many solutions for overhangs exist already, like printing at an angle or printing subassemblies, but this could have the advantages of angled printing in every direction as required, without the need for assembly.
As others have also pointed out, printing a few layers perpendicular to the layers of the whole print, perhaps in the core or on the outside, could provide a huge increase in tensile and torsion strength of the finished piece - I am very curious to see 5-ax strength test prints!
Most of the comments are really positive! I was afraid of the feedback too, but I think most of us understand that this won't be perfect. It's a really difficult problem for a single person to resolve. Some day, something like this will be commercially viable. I think that day is not any time soon, but it will happen and I wanted to do my bit. Thanks for the support!
A. Electroplate nickel "BB's" with copper for better voltage/current transfer w/o causing resistance (crosman sells copper plated 4.5mm "BB's")
B. See if you can get a firm spring (like a recoil spring from a pistol spring) to apply tension on the bed rotational bearing, you can tighten, then the spring will allow slight flex and maintain good contact
C. Ingenious design!
Curious: What is the reason for this? What do you wish to achieve with the 4th axis over 4? The demo prints don't tell me about the advantages of the 5th axis, especially since I'm not sure I understand correctly that there is no correction for the z-axis for the tilt axis? Or is the slicing just the next step in the journey to a true 3d-not-2.5d-printer?
El campeon del mundo imprime en cuantos Axis le de la gana😎😎😎
Jajajajaa! No se si me animo a mas de 5 igual XD
Check out 4th axis quick change machining fixturing. your C axis assembly is similar to some ive seen. It could be a very repeatable option for the C axis and bed
Man builds least rigid 5 axis system and makes surprisingly amazing prints out of it
True that!! I am still amazed the plastic worm gears can do this. Honestly, I didn't have much faith considering the poor rigidity, but seems to do "good enough" for me to move to the slicing problem.
Russian company named Stereotech produces 5-axis 3D printers and their own slicer for them. From what I saw It works quite good.
Thanks for the tip! I'll look into it!
wonder if there will ever be any 5-axis printers for comersial use in the future? (first)
I'm sure there will but once the open source community resolves many of the aspects to make them a useful tool
If you do have problems with your rotary union using stainless steel bearings, i have a design that is used in my industry for our rotating turrets. They transfer 480V to the servo motors that run the turret rotation so its long term robust. I know youre not pushing anything near 480V through those ball bearings so id like to think you wont ever have any problems with pitting or deterioration of them, but if you do happen to notice wear long term, i will gladly share how its done at the industrial level
Thanks a lot!! I've ordered same pieces in copper for now (just in case stainless steal fails), but I can't wait to see if anybody re-designs and improves anything from this!
I think you should move away from those Nema23, go back to perhaps high performance nema17 with standard drivers. I think you have and you are going to lose a lot of time to make those giant steppers work. I mean even very quick machines like the vzbots use LDO-42STH47-2504AC. If you need performance you could run them at 48V. I also noticed your white belts, are they noname or special ? Maybe you should move to more standard Gates belts.
I think you’re already thinking about speed too early, you should try aiming for a perfectly working machine without relying on 128 microsteps first.
I’m very critical but I think your work is awesome (especially the amount of work already required to get that printing) and I’m just thinking of ways to solve the huge layer shift problems !
I think I will have to move to nema17 as well. If I want to open source this I can't leave the big motors, it's an added complication that nobody really needs. You're totally right there!
I just had the motors and the controllers laying around and I was planning to make a "really fast" 3-axis printer. But some other people on the community already tackled that problem with better ideas than that. It's kind of a legacy decision...
Subscribed! I am curious though, why not make the printhead axis pivot instead of the bed, and then just have the bed rotate while staying stationary? This would give you much more surface area to work with, and the weight would not increase as the plastic builds up causing the pivot gears being strained.
It's kind of a trade off... what you propose has some benefits, and some people tried that as well, but my intention was to always print "upwards". If I rotate the printhead I will need to deal with the effects of gravity over the hanging plastic and manage to add some support material beforehand too. Does that make sense? I thought this approach was simpler, but maybe I am missing something. Time will tell!
I am genuinely impressed: how on planet Earth did you even get here? How long did this take you ?
A bit less than a year, but while working fulltime. Now I've decided to work solely on this for some months, that should speed me up a bit
that is awesome, you solved a problem that commercial 3d printer manufactures cannot solve
A sugestion... I see your are using two spurgears and two worm gears to control de round motion of the printed part as it's being printed. I believe you could implement a system of steel cables os even belts attached to the middle of the platarform for the printed part and with an motor at the top of the machine (3D printer). This way you could have less wear and maybe a better mechanical advantage. What I noticed in the video is that each side of the "U" plataform seems to be moving in slighly different speeds or lengths, in other words, the "U" platform seems to disalign as it is moving the printed part. Keep up the great work. Your machine is really cool and interesting.
yes you're right! One of the problems with calibrating this is that I can't really tell if the right and left side of A is at the exact same position. I have something in mind for that. But your idea does make a lot of sense too! I'll keep that in mind, thanks for the comment!
@@engineerunleashed Linear actuators converting to rotary motion might also be an option if backlash in the axis is present
For the a axis, would it help to self calibrate before each print by moving to each extreme and then center. It looked as if they become out of sync.
That's true, I will try to do that as the next iteration!
Nice work. I appreciate all the hard work it takes to innovate and create. I know it can feel like an endless list of struggles and not always know where it is going. Your work is here is part of what will change the future of 3d printing. Way to go!
That's true! Thanks for the support!!
Outstanding Project Result. I need to print Model Train Parts and have wanted 5 axis for years. But now I see it working. For small parts it looks perfect. But I would have to build the whole machine, not just modify my CR10S Pro. I was thinking a table top 2 axis component to sit on top of the Y axis Table. Like on a Milling Machine. You approach is different but does achieve the objective. Great effort thank you for sharing. Dennis in Virginia USA
this is awesome, this machine ask for a creation of a machining program like the ones used for metal, imagine doing a box with horizontal lines and then adding vertical lines outside the box in all its perimeter for example, that would make the parts totally stronger.
One day man will build telescopes that can see atoms
Im developing an open source plugin for grasshopper that can generate multi planar gcode..
We are actually working on implement that to a 5 axis gcode generation.
Take a look in the last videos that ive uploaded.
Congratulations amazing work!
That would be a life saver! I will check you out! :)
this is a really solid build and design.
love the setup.
If I can get one working properly, would you care to deploy a metal printing print head on your 5 axis system?
Hola, excelente maquina, tu ingles tiene un dejo de acento argentino, puede ser?
Saludos!
Si, naci en Argentina!
It's klipper.. You didn't just grab an entire second mainboard immediately instead of smashing head into wall over external drivers?
I can do that too, but I wanted to use my old Duet. That may change in the future, seems like adding another board could be my only option if I don't nail down the problem as it stands.
de una guachin. tremendo esto!!👏👏
Muchas gracias!!
finnaly invented. when i know about CORE XY sistem i was thinking hey is not just 2D X and Y plane thic can be done in diferent style upside dnow, laterla etc. and ther was hey 5 axis CNC. Instead of remove material. 5 axis 3D print is puting material.
Can you describe, or show a shape that can be made on a 5A3DPrinter, that cant be made on a 3DPrinter? And please dont go into the weeds about a stronger parts, speed, supports etc I understand those benefits.... What SHAPE can be made on 5a that CANT be made on 3a?
fantastic job, have you considered using existing tool path programs that already have multi-axial control? like mastercam or something?
Wow this is so interesting! Regarding the layer shifting and microsteps - I might be misunderstanding something, but my imediate instinct is that it's like a cumulating "rounding error", for lack of a better term. Like, when the microsteps are set to a lower value, when the motor wants to move from say position "1.2" to position "1.5", but the low microsteps setting means it's only allow it to move in "0.2" increments, then it can only move to "1.4" or "1.6". Whereas larger microstep number means (if I understand correctly) a higher "resolution", so it can move in say "0.02" increments instead, so it can reach "1.48" or "1.52" which is much closer to where it wants to be. If the difference from where it wants to be to where it actually goes to is large enough, it will cause the shifting you see.
This makes me wonder if you could potentially solve the issue by adjusting gear ratios in certain places, because they might be amplifying those small discrepancies to a point where it becomes a problem. That's just my imediate instinct though, and I might be wildly misunderstanding what microsteps actually mean 😅
I wish you told us what leads you were going to pursue to create g-code
I will try to focus on that during the next few videos, the slicing will be a big challenge!
Holy crap, this is going to be the next big thing in 3D printing. Moving to 5 axis! This hurts my brain thinking of this, lol. But amazing work!!!!!
So happy to see another update. This is beautiful! ❤
Thank you! 😊
Como andas papá? Otros pensaran que es un ingles malo, pero yo note ese Argentino desde el principio. Proyectazo loco, segui para delante que es realmente impresionante.
Felicitaciones 🟦⬜☀⬜🟦 ---- ⭐⭐⭐
Great job 👍 I love your enthusiasm!
3d printing is just cnc with a glue gon on the end instead of an endmill. It may be cost prohibitive for the hobbyist, but using off the shelf cnc hardware and adapting a hotend onto the spindle axis may yield a more rigid and precise result.
I love the concept, but just a tip, that nozzle probe cannot stay if you want the printer to go fast. The end of the nozzle being able to move around is not going to be conducive to any kind of good print quality. Even some solution to lock the toolhead would yield significant results. ~someone who's been screwing with printers for way too long
Awesome project! From what I see, it might be better to keep the axis of rotation stationary, and move the interior chassis holding the print bed “up/down”(inward/outward) instead of moving the rotation parts up and down. This will allow you to have a constant axis of rotation throughout the print, rather than adjusting the rotation axis up and down as you change the Z axis.
This is an amazing achievement. I am an experienced builder of 3D printers. Yet this is extremely complicated, so I will never attempt this. The slicer, yes, that is of course still a huge problem to get right. Congratulations on this result.
Great to get an update on the project. And very impressive that you got it printing.
I loved your project, you have done a great job and I am sure that in the future it can be implemented in some way to improve the quality of 3D prints, but I see a problem that is difficult to solve and that is the limit distance between the base and the extruder, since if the piece is very high and separates itself too much from the base laterally, the bending of the piece will cause printing failures.
Did you publish the Postprocessing python scripts?
Yep! github.com/marianocarpentier/gcode-modifier
They work with Cura sliced models and it's not that sophisticated, but feel free to take a look!
While I'm not entirely sure all the uses this thing has, I'm sure plenty can be done with it; hope you continue to be able to make progress 👍
awesome project! thanks so much for sharing it!
Thanks for watching!
Could the problem be some rounding error? This would explain why finer microsteps lower the error. Try using absolute G-Code coordinates as an easy test because the rounding error should not add up in the case of absolute coordinates.
Could you make the segment on handling and build quality of the product longer than 5 seconds in 24 minute video? Thx
A slip ring for the signal and power on your bed might be worth looking into. Reliability and longevity is higher.
with 5 axis CNC mills you usually have some kinematic lookup table to offset the Shift of the Position of the origin point when moving the additional axis.
would guess that effect is what you see on the prints.
You could make some things normal printers cant make like airless basketballs
Fast forward 20 years and every printer will be 5 axis built on this very project.
nice trailblazing man, 5 axis should have more progress, I'm disappointed to not see more solutions in the maker space!
Have you looked at software that's used for slicing files for 5 axis CNC machines?
One use for 5 axis would be to reduce or eliminate supports. You might be able to get around overhang limits using the extra axis.
I've got a feeling these'll start showing up on the market at some point soon-ish now. Regardless, this is an awesome project.
awesome. great work! congrats! looking forward to 5/6 axis coming to the average consumer
Everytime you say G-Code, it sounds like you are saying "Cheat Code" lol.
Compensating for a problem you haven’t identified is almost certainly a mistake.
Awesome project, revolutionary.
Klipper with octoprint interface over mainsail i dont understand that?
I haven't used Mainsail yet, but it's within the plans to use it instead of Octoprint
Pioneer project, I have the same bad surfaces 18:08 in my ender clone barely doing 3 axis not 5
선생님 진도가 너무 빨라요.. 그치만 존경합니다. 당신의 기술이 너무 멋지네요
I'm assuming the white belts use steel wire cores. Should probably swap them for normal gates powergrip with kevlar thread cores instead, especially considering the small pulleys you're using on the direction changes, it may fatigue the steel wires and have them break pretty fast.
Usually steel core belts aren't work the higher temperature advantages in a machine where most structural parts are made of printed thermoplastics.
For what I remember this belt had kevlar, but I bought that a lifetime ago I may be wrong...
3d printing is still in its early stages. This is the next stage. I built the first RepRap and was amazed. Can’t wait!
When I was a teenager I always wanted to build one but I was broke and couldn't do it. Now it's the time! :)
You need to write a RTCP function that calculates where the XYZ points move when rotaries are turned. These are usually matrix calculations using the machine kinematics. This is how a 5-axis milling machine works. In standard G-code, the function is called G43.4 and with vectors it’s G43.5. Then you could use a standard slicer and manually add those angles, the part shape should stay the same.
I will look into that! thanks for the tip!
bro this is amazing !!!!
At this rate, you're going to kill support material! Good work!
Why are using external drivers instead of TMC2660s, if you use the build in drivers, it will be easier. The other thing you can do is use expansion pins -- duet 2+expansion board have support for 2 additional expansion drivers -- if you need to use the expansion drivers for current reasons, you can use those -- the 2 expansion drivers can be connected to the CONN_LCD (lcd header) -- you shouldn't need to hard code anything at that point
I will certainly look into that, thanks for the tip!
The reason is just to drive bigger motors in X and Y, but lets agree I don't need them to be that big either...
first off: you can get modern TMC drivers and drive them straight from SPI (without step pins etc)
i feel like if i were to open the cad file for this printer, my PC would just blow up violently
also some things:
klipper and octoprint is cursed, i feel like you could make some cool scripts with mainsail and visualizations
i also think the printer is looking truly amazing, 5 axis 3D printing really needs a reason tho, and i feel like that reason is reinforced 3D printing (plastic with wire in the middle)
another thing i would like to see in the future is harmonic/cycloidal drives for the rotational axis. as this printer likely isnt something people are gonna build as their first printer, it makes sense using precision printed parts. belts can work quite well imo, would be a big jump to a proper gearbox, so why not a 3D printed harmoic/cycloidal drive for now ^^
all in all, the whole project makes me very enthusiastic, and i cant wait to see the community developing around it and to maybe hop into it at aswell :P
Great points!, and yes the plan is to move away from Octoprint.
excellent work! That said what is the practical application of 5 axis 3d printer?
None yet! Wont be practical for a good while, nothing beats the simplicity of the current 3-axis FDM!
I just like working on weird projects and ideas!
Man, I'm hoping this is the next step in the 3d fdm printer evolution.
great job man! keep pushing! Congratulations!