Enjoying Black Powder Episode 1: The Trapdoor Springfield
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- Опубликовано: 17 май 2024
- For the full episode with the hand loading instructional section, click here:
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Black powder military rifles of the 1860s-1880s are a really enjoyable group of guns. A lot of them are relatively reasonably priced, and they are actually pretty easy to reload for. The unavailability of factory ammunition (for most, although not so much for the Trapdoor) makes them seem like a daunting prospect, but for a pretty simple investment in tools and time one can make up ammunition and have a lot of fun with rifles like this.
That's the idea behind a new series here on black powder military rifles. Each month, my friend - and handloader - Tom and I will take out a different model to have some fun at the range and compare how they handle. And then we will show you how to make the ammunition for them. So grab your pith helmet, pause "Zulu" and join us! Today is Episode One: Trapdoor Springfield!
Edit: Note that we were using 70 grain powder charges on all our rounds, but the original carbine load was actually 55 grains. Sorry!
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Correction.
The carbine load was 45-55-405 with a cardboard wad used as filler.
The original 1873 rifle load was 45-70-405.
In 1880 it was found during the Creedmoor matches that the 485 grain Martini Henry bullet out performed the 405 grain Trapdoor bullet at longer ranges. So special trials guns were made in an experimental 45-80-500 cartridge and a new twist rate was also experimented with using a 5 groove rifling instead of the original three groove rifling. Further testing showed the extra 10 grains of powder wasnt needed and the 500 grain bullet matched and then would out perform the Martini Henry at the same ranges the 405 grain bullet wouldn’t.
The 45-70-500 cartridge would be adopted in 1883 hence the 1884 model trapdoor.
The carbines would maintain the use of the 45-55-405 cartridge until they were withdrawn from service.
Other aspects of the 1884 model is it has an improved and heavier duty breech block as issues had been noted in the field of even the 405 cartridge guns had issues of blocks coming partially open during firing. The solution was simply to add more weight that had previously been removed. That improvement had been rolled into production in 1879 and finalized with the 1884 and latter 1888 models.
Crud, you're right. Sorry!
The Martini is the best BP single shot IMHO. The Rolling Block is excellent too. It would have been a better choice than the Trapdoor
@@sharonrigs7999 Only if budget and logistics weren't issues, which they most assuredly were.
@jic1 True that.
The Army was thoroughly broke after the Civil War and the Trapdoors were good enough for the ongoing Indian Wars.
@@sharonrigs7999 And the Spanish-American War.
I worked as a reenactor and we used these rifles for our time period. Definitely one of my favorite rifles ever. Easy to work on, dependable, and satisfying as hell to shoot.
What were you reenactor for?
@@chugachuga9242 Mackinac State Parks. I worked in Fort Mackinac on Mackinac Island as a soldier portraying fort life in the late 1800s as well as some basic military demonstrations.
@@TheEpictrooper that’s really cool because I have never seen reenactors for that time, I have only ever seen the usuals like The Revolutionary war, Civil War, and World War 2
@@chugachuga9242 it's an interesting time frame as the military hadn't changed too much from the Civil War. The uniforms were practically identical as was the structure of rank and units. Thankfully, they realized line battles with breech loading rifles wasn't the smartest so tactics did change a bit. They adopted more light infantry tactics like skirmish lines.
I was waiting for you to say civil war reenactor and I was going to call out Farb...
I actually have one, handed down from my grandfather. Stamped on the butt is "stolen from Lubin Manufacturing CO" which was an early film studio in Philadelphia. Assuming my coal mining grandfather wasn't a thief, he bought it when the studio burned down.
Cant wait for the sequel series where Ian discusses all the technical details of "enjoying white powder"
You mean poudre blanche, Paul Ville's famous Powder B? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poudre_B
Nice comments.
“This here is a famas, it uses smokeless powder 5.56 nato ammunition”
I see what you did there! ^-^
Nice play on words. As well as a bit of tongue in cheek social commentary. You sly dog you... ^-^
I didn't even understand the joke, I was just like "oh, white powder would be interesting to cover."
"And it smells great too."
*wheezing seconds later*
weed smokers get this
If you’re loved your grandpa’s sigar smell, you’re gonna love black powder
Bad smells can come from some of the fats used to grease the bullet, but hot beeswax isn't at all bad!
Cough wheeze " real smooth stuff" choke wheeze
@@csschot I hate cigar(!) smell
How could anyone see this and not think that firearms can be so wholesome?
People who have bought into mainstream media fear-mongering.
Tom is a fine co-host! Happy to hear more of this is coming :)
I have an 1873 that my father bought from an old farmer in Tennessee back in the 60's. He, unfortunately, had it re-blued. It is a beautiful gun. I used to pretend I was Danial Boone and play with it as a kid (Yea, I had no concept of history at the time..LOL).
You're in Danial!
...very few of us did at that age...
This makes me want to get my grandfather’s Springfield 1873 trapdoor rifle back to shooting condition. Apparently the firing pin is broken and has been since the 50s. Enjoyed the video.
Check out Mark Nowak's Conservation 101 video. You can do 95% of the work yourself, and he also has a video on conserving a Trapdoor rifle too.
@@theshadowrunner28 Very cool! I’ll look into that. Thanks for the info.
I did the same with the 1873 trapdoor I inherited. Same broken firing pin, but I found an original replacement on the internet at s&s firearms, out of NY state. Had to clean the barrel of almost 80 years of dirt and rust, but I took the rifle to a gunsmith and he gave her a clean bill of health. The look on my father's face when he fired that rifle that he had only ever seen hang over the mantle was worth all the time I spent! 😊
There is something very satisfying about hearing that mechanism operate.
As the owner of several antique firearms for which I have never even been in the same room as a live cartridge for them, this is very interesting.
Surely classic rather than antique. A hand cannon or wheel lock might be antique but these................
@@patrickporter1864 surely an item that was manufactured over 130 years ago is an antique, is the date in your name your date of birth?
@@patrickporter1864 100 years is a common threshold for antique stuff in general. US law is actually a bit pickier, and requires that guns be made 1898 or earlier to be an antique.
@@patrickporter1864 Antique in my local context is all firearms manufactured before jan 1st 1898 except for repeating longarms and cartridge handguns of "common calibers"..
Lmao around these parts you can get an antique plate for your car if its 30 years old... So any M9 used in Desert Storm
Loved black powder ever since deer hunting as a kid. These odd transitional period guns right before modern cartridges are always super interesting.
More of this sort of thing please. I love this sort of era of weapons.
Really like the premise of this series, keep it up!
I know it's not a military rifle, but an 1874 sharps would be appreciated to be seen, mostly because I want a Mathew Quigley impression from Ian 😄
"This one shoots a mite further."
maybe Ian could ask Tom to borrow it? Bet Tom would like this channel
The earlier Sharps model carbines and rifles were most definitely military arms
@@savagestevens6398 of course. But this series seems to be about metallic cartridge breachloaders, so I don't think we would see the earlier sharps since they were loaded with paper cartridges.
Mines an 1873 with the Buffington sight made in 1884 and yes, they definitely shoot high.
Mine started out as a rifle but some time after the guns were sold as surplus it was cut down into a carbine. The stock has a lot of wear but the barrel is in very good condition. An expert in these rifles told me it was very likely cut down just as soon as it purchased as surplus and used as someone's hunting/defense rifle which would explain the heavy wear on the stock and very little on the receiver and barrel. I have no idea how much of that is true but I absolutely love the gun.
Loved this video! I wish there were more videos talking about and shooting these guns.
I look forward to this. I've wanted a Martini Henry since i first saw Zulu on TV as a kid. And Ive wanted a magazine Vetterli since I ran across it in books.
Good idea for a series. Many people seem to equate black powder with muzzleloaders and percussion revolvers and that smokeless powder and metallic cartridges appeared on the scene at the same time. Loading and shooting black powder cartridges is fun and takes you back to the mid-to-late 1800s. Most modern firearms will happily accept black powder ammunition although I would not recommend it in an AR-15. I did have a friend who shot a Wild Bunch match with black powder ammo; his 1911 made it through 120 or so rounds with no malfunctions.
Cool to see a video about shooting an older gun, and some of the history behind it
When I acquired an M1884 Carbine I was surprised how well the extractor works and how fun it is to shoot. No wonder Geronimo like to carry one of them!
I recently discovered CapandBall's channel and I've been really enjoying his videos on these weapons. I'm really looking forward to this series.
The Springfield Trapdoor is such a beautiful rifle, and I love the trapdoor mechanism it has. Just love this beautiful rifle.
I definitely love seeing the two of you dressed like that. I don't know if it's the setting, the hat, (and I know it's a reenactment outfit) but I can't help but think of Fallout's NCR seeing you like that.
As someone who shoots this kind of rifle frequently i am very happy to see you launch this series. I am sure Rob from Britishmuzzleloaders will be watching closely too.
I love my Trapdoor and handloading straight wall cases is probably the easiest round to load. Recoil is mild even though the .45/70 looks like an elephant round when compared to other rounds of the period.
Oh, this is going to be a fun series.
This looks like it's going to be a fun series. I look forward to seeing more.
My first rifle that I actually owned was a 58 caliber black powder carbine. Ended up trading it years later, as anyone will tell you, that was a huge mistake and, again, as everyone knows, I regret it to this day. I do now own an 1885 high wall. (45-70)
Thank you. This sounds like a great series. Please keep it up.
It sounds great even with the wind noise‽ 😂
(I hadn't even noticed the wind noise until I read the comments.)
A small error: According to the Pitman Notes (vol.3), the original load was .45-70-405 (that's a 405-grain bullet) for the 1873 rifle and carbine. Later, the carbine load was changed to 55 grains of powder because of the recoil, retaining the 405-grain bullet. Later, too, they changed the rifle load to use the 500-grain bullet because it had better external ballistics. All of the Manuals of Arms for the rifle after about 1880 refer to the 500-grain bullet for the rifle.
As to shouting higher from the prone, note that the US manuals for this rifle by Captain Henry Blunt (1885 and 1889) specifically says that the dangerous space is increased because of the lower position. The sigh was set on the assumption the rifle was 56 inches from the ground.
If you're going to do an episode on the Snider (and you should, they are perfect for this series), check out a book called "Historical Shooting with the Snider-Enfield Rifle" on any of the big book outlets.
Ian has had lots of guests who are good at shooting or who know a lot about guns. Tom is good at both of these but he's excellent at coming across on video and communicating, too.
The shotgun expert - his name evades me now - was enjoyable as well.
@@The_Modeling_Underdog "Russell," I think?
@@matthewspencer972 Yeah, I think his name was Russell.
Love this series. Black powder in any form is a lot of fun.
As someone who owns a bunch of semi auto guns there is a part of me that longs to buy a bunch of black powder guns and do some turn of the century larping
You'll probably find the yearly ammunition cost to go down 😅
The crazy part is besides Italian cap and ball repo revolvers you can often find originals for cheaper than the repos. I snagged an original 1860 Spencer carbine that saw service in the civil war and possibly the Indian wars in functional condition for half of what the Italian repos with tons of issues go for, even after buying a centerfire conversion block to shoot it more easily still much cheaper. Or my 1816 us musket Belgian cone conversion made in 1831. Half the price of an Italian repo of a flintlock 1816 musket. Plus it’s just so awesome holding something that saw that actual history and is so old everyone who had any hand in making it or was issued it has been gone a long time. Versus my modern stuff is far superior tactically but no soul, no real service life except maybe some individual parts if it’s a parts kit build.
They are addicting for sure and certain!
Dude has great camera presence with Ian! Great work guys!
The carbine load has a 55 grain load of powder, .45-55-405. The military also adopted the .45-70-405 for the rifle.
I have difficulty getting 70 grains into the cartridge, settling with 50 grains as my standard load. This gun, by the way, was part of General Custer's Nemesis. Ejecting spent cartridges was a problem.
@@JohnnyBallouThat had more to do with the cartridge cases that the army cheaped out on than the rifle which the army cheaped out on. Evidently US Army was using copper cases not brass. After the point was made by the Indians about how badly the copper cases caused extraction issues and how those issues got people killed the army stopped cheaping out on the cartridge cases and switched to brass. They also issued tools and trained people on how to deal with the extraction issues.
Thanks Ian, now my area of interest will get 2x as expensive as people realize how easy it is to shoot these... (I mean BP guns as a whole, not trapdoors).
True, but at least it would reinvigorate the market for molds brass etc hopefully which is slowly dying as interest dwindles with boomers ageing out and most millennials and younger not being interested.
Thanks for the wonderful video, I have always been found of the 45-70, I even had plans to build one years ago however the action I chose was too short to accommodate the round, my fellow gunsmith gave me the idea to chamber my chosen action in .444 Marlin, which I did. Made a great rifle out of the old Styer Straight Pull although the clip system was a pain in the rear, I modified the action so the clip didn't get lost and stayed in the rifle till you needed to feed her more ammo. I took the little rifle with the 18 inch barrel and open sights that I mounted on her out to the field and took a nice White Tail Buck with the gun. Took it to a gun show just to display, another dealer fell in love with the rifle and made me an offer I could not refuse so I let it go. I still had the reamers for the round and a second barrel blank, so I turned that down and built another .444 on an 1917 Enfield action, mounted it on a fiberglass stock, put a nice scope on it, took a deer with that one as well but again, at the next gun show I took a nice Dan Wesson Pistol pack with 4 barrels in trade across the board for my build. I had another smith who helped me with the builds, I gave him the reamers and gave up on my desire for a big bore rifle. Sort of wish I had kept my little carbine though
My FIL has a trapdoor that his great great grandfather used in the Texas militia. He carved his initials into the stock and it's dated 1883 or 1884 I believe. It sat in a barn for decades and is pretty much rusted shut, it still has the bayonet attached.
It looks like Ian's efforts to "gamer it up" gave him the edge!
And he was still doing the proper half-cock reload it looked like. The game Hunt Showdown does the full cock reload.
First generation of breechloaders had often a different load for rifles and carbines. Sometimes cartidges had also different csse length.
Dude this is super cool! Can't wait for more of the series.
I shot some old black-powder rifles for fun when I was younger. After a while of shooting muzzle-loaders I got to play with a Martini-Henry. It was like night & day. I can imagine the feeling of the first armies equipped with breech loaders against those with muzzle loaders, they must have shot them to pieces. That & easily re-loading from cover must've been a real game changer.
Fast-forward one more generation and you have generals resisting the idea of equipping their men with repeaters, because they'd just waste ammunition! (And then along comes Hiram Maxim saying, "No, no, boys, you want to talk about wasting ammunition, watch THIS." :)
The ammo wasting thing was a real concern with loooong logistic tails and poor transportation of the day. Many of the civil war engagements with units armed with Spencer’s versus muzzle loaders went like this. Spencer’s put out a wall of fire push back a numerically superior force. This lasts until they have used up all their rounds. They then have to retreat far enough back to be resupplied. The funny part 90% of people don’t consider though is outside of combat the early metallic cartridge guns were noted for going through less ammunition than the muzzle loaders. The reason being the paper cartridges quickly wore out from jostling around. So just marching an army no engagements you’d lose a certain number of rounds. Metallic cartridges being more robust didn’t have to worry about that or water exposure destroying them as easily.
Dude that hat is awesome! Tom is so cool.
Guy "shot a Martini." Sure hope he wasn't at a crowded bar!😂
Crowd was little shaken.
"We sloshed you with Martinis, an' it wasn't 'ardly fair;"
Dad joke for the win
this stirred me up
Very stirring moment, though.
Seems to me that smoothly, and quickly operating the bolt, etc provide an extremely enjoyable sensation, even greater than accurate firing of the weapon!
Definitely recommend the C&Rsenal episode on the US Kraig for details on the buffing ton and other sights the military was dealing with at the end of the 19th century. They couldn’t make up their minds at all
Safari shirts, wicked cool hats, and a sweet rifle. So dang good
Can’t wait for the series. Wonderful series idea!
Looking at the 1884 trapdoor. Thank you for breaking down how the ammo works
At this point, I have a Gras, a Martinie-Henry, and a Snider, and I've shot none of them because I don't the ammo.
When firing a original blackpowder firearm someone will usually comment"that things too old to fire safely". If the gun is inspected and is mechanically sound, use proper loads and your ok.
I mean it's just a metal tube at the end of the day. If no stress fractures or rust is present fire away.
And enjoy the look of horror on people's faces who think vintage pieces should be treated like Holy Mary's naughty bits.
Mm. With vintage firearms, it's much more about how worn they are than how old. Or, to paraphrase Indiana Jones, it's not the years, it's the mileage. :)
People underestimate the longevity of well-cared-for forged steel.
Keep it clean and don't run it hot and it will keep firing.
And proofed. I used to shoot an early 19thC English shotgun with other fans of these guns. Old guns were always test proofed with a double charge after restoration.
Oh, believe me, i have gewehr 1888s....ive heard it all!😂😂😂😂
I like the way the rifle goes "chuff" instead of "bang"!
A good deal of that os a audio sampling artifact. The microphone is being overloaded by the volume of the shot and only gets part of the sound.
Agreed, what you hear on video isn't really what they sound like thanks to limitations of the recording techology. That said, in my experience black-powder rifles have a much deeper sound than modern ones, probably because the powder deflagrates so much slower. They make more of a boom than a bang.
(And flintlocks do go "chuff", but _then_ they go boom. :)
Black powder tends to be quieter. Most are subsonic too so you don’t get a sonic boom from the bullet just the muzzle blast and many have long barrels so that’s not super close to you. In between my relays in competition when I’m like 15 yards behind the line I can take out my earpro and have conversations comfortably with people while the next relay blasts away. No way in hell would I even attempt that with modern rifles. Even with some hearing loss from time as an infantryman I have to double up on earpro sometimes with modern stuff. BP just cheap foamies is fine every time.
@@ZGryphon Afaik, a tactic for certain kinds of raids (or for poaching) was to short-load the weapon. Not enough - one hoped - to let thr bullet get stuck in the barrel, but enough that the report was softer and less obvious.
Of course, effective range would be significantly reduced, but for that kind of work that wasn't a major consideration anyway. Neither was having to pull a possibly stuck bullet before reloading. If you needed to reload, something had gone terribly wrong.
@@CoreySimmons85 Given that these guys appear to know what they're doing, and assuming their loads are accurate, both the lighter "carbine" load and the regular rifle load for this rifle will break the sound barrier from the rifle specifically (I say specifically because the carbine load fired from a carbine will be subsonic).
A new series about accessible historical firearms? Take my money!
Great work and had NO PROBLEM with the sound.
Fired an original 1873 rifle pretty extensively back in early 70s when you had to hunt/order the ammunition. The steady diet of factory W-W 405 smokeless ended up being a bit much, she got to puffing back at you and got retired.
Excellent subject, I can’t wait for this series.
gunna be a legendary series
Cool video and cool series idea, I'm looking forward to future episodes!
Excited for this, these are my favorite era of firearms.
I love seeing the old black powder guns being put through the paces
10:26 That's some hefty fireball. Nice.
The difference between the original Springfield and the Trapdoor Springfield is enormous. And what a conversion!
Looking forward to this series sounds awesome.
I love my Trapdoor, had it for 20 years, was the reason for my first reloads, such a great rifle.
I am SO excited for this series
One of these is on my list to buy by the end of the year.
A younger reloaded this is great content
The high shooting is because the sight is down. These sights were meant to be raised. The "battle sight" is 278yds (why marksmen liked them). Flipping the sight up and elevator (if you want to call it that) down to the bottom, using the bottom sight (they have an aperture above an open) the sight is now 200yds, the lowest range. I made the mistake thinking the down "battle sight" was 100 or 200, and found out through Wolf's book that it was further. This model saw use by NG units in Cuba, Puerto Rico, and the Philippines during the Spanish American War, and the beginning of the Philippine American War.
oh i am going to love this new series
Thanks Ian.
That was interesting. I've never seen a trapdoor fired and reloaded before.
.
I have wanted a trapdoor springfield and a rolling block for a long time. 2 of my favorite rifles
Just bought a Pedersoli Trapdoor carbine. Beautiful shooting rifle.
Great video, Ian & Tom...👍
Great idea for a series.
👍👍
i really do love these style of weapons, they are very interesting and look like a lot of fun to shoot!
One thing i would like to add, would be to see the accuracy of the rifles at longer ranges, just something to get a rough idea cause normally black powder rifles are associated with muzzle loaders, line firing and needing to be point blank range.
Mine was born in 1879. Fun rifle.
Every firearm has a learning curve just some more than others.Thanks
Excellent video 🎉
Tom, you need a PROPER beard and mustache to compete with Ian in the timed trials. 🙄😂. Five O'Clock shadow just isn't going to cut it. 🐶
Great stuff!
Enjoyed that , i load 45/70s with light smokeless loads. The old Lyman handbook has a good variety. I load the 50/70s with blackpowder or Pyrodex . The sights on the latter model trapdoors are nor compatible with my old eyes. The first trapdoor i bought came from Fox studios, they were disposing of some of their props. Watch the old westerns and you will see trapdoors disguised as flintlocks and other weapons. I always use cast bullets , much easier on the barrels. Thanks again Ian.
This looks like a very interesting series.
For additional content on each gun, how about including your preferred cleaning procedures on each unique model?
When I was a teen in the 1960s a man down the road from my childhood home owned a new BP muzzle loader (Numrich Arms underhammer model) and took me out with him shooting a time or two. I really enjoyed him let me fire it a couple of times each time out.
I remember some of the cleaning session afterward, when he started by unscrewing the breech and pouring boiling water down the barrel to get the worst of the residue out. He followed that with some kind of green liquid on patches, and I don't remember the rest.
The different models each have their own best maintenance practices and I think that at least some of us would like to see them.
I am so happy about this. I’ve been trying to figure out how to zero a Springfield. Mine hits about a foot or two high at 100yds
That's normal, there's no zeroing it. The rifle was factory zeroed for 200 yards, manual of arms states to use the battle sight and aim low for anything closer, for the 1884 anyway. 1873 is still zeroed for 200 yards but i cant recall how the sights look.
I recently got an 1885 Springfield Trapdoor rifle so this is awesome to see!
i own a cut down trap door and its been in my family for generations
reason why it was cut down was cause my great grandfather road horses back in the day and. needed a saddle carbine and the trap door is what he had on hand
thanks for the black powder content
This new series should be a lot of fun :D love the satisfying spring ejector of the springfield
I am not really into either guns or military matters at all (other than, y’know, local contemporary european stuff) but forgotten weapons brings something interesting for me. Another way, through guns, their politics, manufacturing, lore etc. To put a really diverse pieces of history (old and new) into context and another brainpath for memorisation, learning motivation. Never fired a gun, might never do, not really something that i have a desire to do, but I am totally hooked on this -stuff-. Thank you very much for this content, well done and superinteresting. Almost always a pleasurable and meaningful ”waste” of time.
Nice idea!! I am interested in more content for sure!!
I love how ians just shooting a single shot walst some dude in the back is ring the heck out of some steal 😂
damn i luv trapdoor rifles, so iconic
This was really cool! I like these black powder cartridge guns more than muzzle loaders. Looking forward to the other parts of the series.
Looking forward to the rest of this series
The Vetterli rifle, or the Vetterli-Vitali is my dream rifle, I'm dying to see rounds be put through on the channel
Tried some BP loads in my 1888 'ramrod' bayonet using a commercial cast 500gr bullet sized .458. I could hear them 'fluttering' downrange and saw perfect keyholes from the 2 that hit the target. A friend cast and sized some bullet .461. 3in groups!
Love the campaign hat, Ian. I have one very similar to it. Obviously, you are a man of good taste.
this series comes at a perfect time for me, I just got into black powder with an S.C. Robinson Sharps Carbine reproduction I found at work for a really good price, cant wait to go out and use it
I'd never seen one of these in action before, and I suddenly understand why the Army was so happy with them. I'm more familiar with muzzle loading rifled muskets, which are a serious pain to load. The trapdoor is a massive improvement!
Great video and series idea. The flap covers on those cartridge holders are a huge time problem. They need to have a hold open feature.
I wonder how different a Mills cartridge belt would’ve been
Now this is going to be fun!
I have an 1870 Trapdoor in .50-70. It had been sporterized so long ago, don’t know when, but was my grandfather’s and sat in a pickle crock next to the fireplace for as long as I could remember. When my dad passed it came to me.
It had a missing hammer, a broken sear and spring, and as I said, the forearm was gone. I found a forearm for sale from the same model and grafted it onto the stock under the rear barrel band, replaced the broken parts, and found a reproduction “ramrod”. The firing pin was frozen in the trapdoor, so that took some work to break loose.
I think it is a functioning rifle now. I found a guy in Austin that had some hand loads for it, but I’m a little chicken to fire it.