The "bad" US state flags are good, actually
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- Опубликовано: 17 июн 2023
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😼Eatings a burger🍔 with no honey🍯 custard😼
CGP grey been real quiet since this dropped 😂
The flags are good logos, the problem is we are judging them on the standards of actual nations
@jjmccullough i would be so psyched if you did a video about the New Zealand flag contest
i just think of you as dorky canadian that id want to pinch on the cheeks like an old grandma (i am a 6ft 5 man with a beard in his prime) you still elicit the "dawwww" factor but in like a historical and calm way
JJ casually upsetting the entire flag community.
it's ok because flag community is a bunch of nerds smh
Shots fired 😂
r/vexillology is seeeeething
All those poor vexed vexillologists
Flags get a lot of crap. There never cherished and we never wave back.
I'd pay real money to see/listen to a flag debate between JJ and CGP Grey
I feel like there would be hands thrown LMAO
that would get so heated holy shit lmao
@TheRealSlimIndy Both are reasonable people, so I don't think it would get table flipping crazy tho. I think it would be more like both leaving with the same opinion, but maybe pulled slightly closer tp the other person's side. I agree tho that would be awesome to see.
Sha! Don’t forget about ol Brady Haran too!
Long live Nail and Gear!
Considering we got Jreg on his channel already it might actually happen.
CGP Grey thinking that the Colorado flag is a bad flag because it has the letter C on it is an absolutely delusional take. I think a good flag basically just needs to be distinctly recognizable.
Exactly, the only good flag rule is that it should be distinctive, there's plenty of distinctive flags that don't follow those 4 other rules.
and colorado definitely succeeds at that
Colorados flag is awesome.
Something no one seemed to mention:
The North American Vexilological Association's flag has a giant V on it!
Yeah, he's kind of a rigid fundamentalist about the NAVA rules. I don't like Colorado's flag, but not because of the "C." The "C" is part of what makes it distinct. Which is Rule 5.
The most damning aspect of the seal flags is that people from their states don’t even seem to like them. In comparison California’s flag also breaks the rules but Californians actually use their flag and it’s iconic so no one asks to change it.
As a Michigander I like my flag…
I'm from massachusetts and I genuinely don't like our flag
A lot of people in Utah like their flag, that's why the flag debate has become a political debate in Utah.
Almost like it’s a flag we can visualize and draw?
@@magdavillafuerte I mean sorta. They couldn’t pull the signatures to stop the change. I’m in Utah, I prefer the solution the state made. Just fly both them. The new one is so much more marketable which was obviously the point. So if we’re flying both at the government buildings, I don’t see the downside.
Fun fact. The Nebraska State Flag was once flow upside down on our state capital for multiple weeks before anyone noticed.
If it was on top of that ridiculously high dome no one could have seen it with any detail anyway.
@@alanlight7740 If they had accidentally put Kansas' flag up there nobody would have known iether. Which is why it's a bad design
The same thing happened here in Minnesota...
It now occurs to me that flying a flag upside down is a way to signal distress ... and in these states no one would know you needed help.
I mean at the same time i've seen so many people fly the australian aboriginal flag upside down, mainly at schools or at non government buildings
A lot of people fly the Californian or Texan Flags while no one flies the New York or Pennsylvanian Flags.
A think a big reason for this is that these blue flags are not unique enough for people to care about them or have an emotional attachment to them.
Yep love AZs flag I couldn’t find nys flag anywhere in nyc
I think it had nothing to do with the flash design and everything to do with the string sense of identity Texas and California had vs. Pennsylvania or New York outside of NYC (which had its own strong city based identity. )
Texas was a country and California almost became a country. After Alaska they are the two biggest states.
There is a long history associated with both flags.
@@PierzStyx I would argue a lot of states with "SOB" flags have a strong sense of identity. Or at least I'd say that Maine, Louisiana, New Jersey, Oregon, and Pennsylvania have just as much if not a larger sense of identity than say, New Mexico, Maryland, Arizona, or South Carolina. And yet the former states are much less likely to fly their state's flag because they're not very distinct or well-liked. I don't think we should shame people for liking an SOB flag or force them to change or whatever, but there's a reason some flags people remember and others don't.
You also mention NYC, but could you tell me what NYC's flag actually is? It suffers from the same fate. Meanwhile, Chicago, DC, and even Des Moines have distinct, simple flags that it's residents commonly know and use. Does Des Moines have a stronger sense of identity than New York City?
When I started going to school in Ohio the first thing I did was hang up my PA flag. Does this get me made fun of? Yes. Is PA better than Ohio? Also yes.
Personally, I have the same problem with "seal on a bedsheet" flags that I have with "Pan-Arab", "Pan-African", "Pan-Slavic", or really any other tri-color flags. They all kind of just blend together. Not only do they get boring and repetitive, but they can also easily be confused with one another. As someone currently trying to memorize all 197 national flags, I have been stuck on Africa for weeks because there is so much red, yellow, and green that I don't even know where to begin.
Out of interest what way have you been trying to learn them off? I'm pretty good on my flags from years of reading this great National Geographic atlas we had at home. I think a method more like this might be more effective than trying to sit down and learn them off at the same time.
@@seanolaocha940 I did actually get them figured out shortly after I made this comment. I ended up just doing Sporcle quizzes on repeat until I could consistently get them all without trouble.
As someone who gets Germany and Belgium confused I could never do that. Tri color flags suck. And I'm looking at you too France.
@@alexanderhoak Nice one 😁
@@jimmym3352 It's all a matter of taste. Some people prefer simpler designs and other prefer more complexity.
As a resident of Maryland, I heavily sympathize with the argument that a flag’s value is based on its people’s embrace of it. Our flag doesn’t follow all of the design rules (it’s polarizing for lots of on-lookers)… But when you drive around the state, you see it plastered proudly all over by its people - and it’s a beautiful thing. Beyond that though, I do generally think that the flag design rules are very useful guidelines that result in more accessible and enjoyable designs for viewers (even if these rules aren’t the ‘end all be all’). Seals and flags are different mediums with different uses that us humans are perfecting and understanding better over generations.
Maryland's flag rules! ... Because it breaks all the rules. Even the criticized CPG Grey video acknowledges that. Maybe the top factor of what makes a good state flag is how it's citizens embrace it ... Flag related merchandise sales could be an interesting metric to measure that.
I think flags do have a "rule of cool" about them. If you've got a distinctive and clever design that bends a few flag "rules" then that's better than something bland but conformist.
Maryland's flag Is probably one of my favorites. It catches the eye and stands out among a bunch of restrictive designs. It doesn't bother to fit in but rather embraces the cacophony of colors and shapes in a way that anybody trying to copy it would fail. What makes it better is the embrace of the flag. Honestly the only flag rule should be to try not to conform to a generalized sort of rules. You need a flag that can stick out among the others in its own way but, most importantly, it should be a symbol that people can stand behind and embrace.
It's a gross flag and a PITA to make
I know a guy from Maryland and he's the only person I know that owns merchandise with a state flag on it.
I still think that it is more aesthetically pleasing when flags have more individuality from afar and can be distinguished when put together.
Yea JJ can kick rocks on this topic, I like that flags have rules
Disagree with both of you.
You both want a world full of the most boring flags imaginable...
@@BetterJS No JJ just spent 20 mins telling us how cool seals are ... which they are cool but not on flags
I'm not a fan of seals on flags but a big part of the problem is they put the seal in the same place with the same colour background. Washington is so much more recognisable as it uses green and not blue
@@BetterJS Every SoB flag is indistinguishable at a distance.
I think the real animosity towards the US state flags comes from their similarities clashing with the sudden rise of the internet and thus desire among many to express their place of origin online. It's hard to do when your cultural symbol can be easily confused for ~20 others just like it.
I agree the 'rules of flag design' are too dogmatically followed these days, but I wouldn't go so far as to say the distaste for the state flags are some niche top down phenomenon without genuine public interest.
The reason all those stare flags look so similar is because when they were made, that was the design philosophy of the day. What the champions for contemporary "rules of flag design" miss is that in 100+ years their "good design" will look like a time capsule of a dated trend rather than timeless stnadards perfected in the early 21st century.
Lot of people forget the 0th rule aka "Nuance is key, you can break the rules"
I mean the flag of South Africa (too much color), Nepal (weird shape), Brazil and Iran (letterering), Sàmi (tincture), Saint-Pierre and Miquelon (flagS on flag) are beautiful. And no need to mention all the flag with complex part like seal (Nicaragua), coat-of-arm (Spain) or... something (Portugal's armillary sphere) or just design overall (Sri Lanka).
I 100% agree with this. I don't really care for the whole seal on a bedsheet design, but its more because I personally just think they're boring. I couldn't care less about some completely arbitrary set of flag rules.
Its not that hard to make it distinctive still... My home state manages to remind you in the biggest letterin possible that it is both a state and called Oregon xD
I think they put "State of Oregon" there instd of just Oregon like most states with their name opted for... Bcuz Oregon Territory used to be a thing and that covered most of the PNW from the eastern edge of Idaho and everythin west and north of it prty much, even into British Columbia (tho they didnt call it Oregon Territory; yes, USA and UK used to have joint custody of the pacific northwest xD)
They probs rly wanted to show off that theyre the real Oregon, the State of Oregon, no longer just a territory heh
@@bort6459 The Danish flag design is 800 years old and still looks great?
JJ, usually when you go contrarian I cross my arms and go "tsk tsk JJ, don't be contrarian! (wikipedia). But for this one you actually converted me. As a resident of Virginia, I always thought my flag was "bad" but I see your point of "bad at what exactly"? What other flag has nudity and violence? That's something every Virginian can be proud of.
Personally I've always loved our PG-13 flag. I don't own anything with the flag on it, but I should look into fixing that.
Virginia is for lovers. Of nudity and violence. That tracks.
Then again, Virginia is by far the best of the SOB flags simply because it has those badass features. Most SOB flags are like, yeah, agriculture and industry. Cool story bro.
@@pharmesq To be fair, agriculture and industry are the themes of the Soviet Union's flag, and, for all their faults, it's a pretty awesome flag.
@@Panory The difference is that the hammer and sickle were two simple shapes that created a simple, but powerful symbol. The SOB flags often are something like a depiction of a farm next to a river or in general have a lot going on that detracts from simple symbolism
I grew up in Connecticut, with a "s.o.b" flag, and I have a vivid memory of being in elementary school being taught about the cultural significance of the intricate stamp on the state flag and being encouraged to try to replicate it in a drawing to prove how hard it would be to forge an official seal on important documents. (This was a graded assignment but we all got 100s for effort lol)
Connecticut's flag / seal / coat of arms is among the simplest symbols grom among US states, lol
I was about to comment something similar about my experience growing up in Pennsylvania
Yeah that's just not really a reason for it to be used on a flag
I think the most important role a flag should have is a recognizable way to distinguish and celebrate where you’re from. Being from NY we have no real love for our state flag but I’m always amazed when I see how much Coloradans, Californias, Washingtonians (DC), Texans, South Carolinians, and Alaskans celebrate their flags. It just seems like there is a very clear distinction in which every state without a SOB has vibrant flag culture but no state with a SOB has any flag culture.
Was just in Delaware and shocked to see their (sob) flag being flown everywhere.
The biggest problem I have with SOB flags are that, at a glance, they are nearly identical. The flags hold no specific value or symbolism in themselves, it is just the seal, which is hard to make out in most scenarios, that holds that weight. In the original use of flags they were meant to stand out and contrast with the enemy while on the battlefield to better conduct troops which very few of the SOBs would be able to accomplish. Modern flags don't need this use in most cases but should be easily recognizable for cases of regional pride. Most states with diverse flag designs one can point out a flag and say "I'm from there" while people from SOB flag states will have to wait for the seal to be shown to maybe recognize it. The purpose behind a seal and flag are very different. A seal was made highly intricate to avoid forgery while a flag was meant to convey information quickly and without confusion.
Also if the US flag was just a seal on a blue field do you think it would be as beloved as the stars and stripes?
and new mexicans! best flag
I am from Utah and the state recently adopted a new flag. I personally hate it because I think it is ugly. It has also become a massive partisan issue here in the state.
I'm Californian and I do love my flag. Have a full size flag hung up right above my computer lol. Never thought about how other states feel about their flag
I can't say I agree that the reason people aren't attached to their flags is lack of education instead of design. I live in Chicago where everyone loves the flag because it's a great design that easily lends itself to clothing, tattoos, etc. That love for the design leads people to become educated on the symbolism and history, not the other way around. A good design will get people interested.
I agree with the line from the pro "good flag design" people in that a rule of thumb for a good flag is that it is used in marketing and branding, art, etc. mostly independent of any organized push to put the design out there (e.g., from a government or agency that uses the flag.) The 99% Invisible episode on good city flag design highlights the Chicago flag as an example of this.
What better heuristic for a good flag design than the people of the community adopting and repurposing it on their own?
This is exactly why Marylanders love our flag too
Despite how much U.S. central/southern illinoisians despise Chicago, you’d find exponentially more people here attached to the Chicago flag than our generic bald eagle on printer paper state flag
As a VIRGINIAN you used our flag so many times for reference and I’m so happy cause it is based and about killing tyrants so I want it to stay forever!
I’m surprised the governor isn’t against it since it shows a nipple
Fun fact: The Virginia government literally charges you $35 to produce a design with it legally.
It's the greatest ever, I'm so proud of us
Lets go Virginia! We have nothing here but we're kinda nice!
@@ceseum We have lots here. Centuries of history (arguably more than any other state), the economic benefits of proximity to Washington, D.C., the fifth highest percentage (and eighth highest number) of advanced degree holders amongst the 50 states, the vast natural beauty of both the Chesapeake Bay and the Blue Ridge Mountains, the best living history museum in the country, one of the best theme parks in the country, the 2nd oldest university in the country, a highly prestigious medical school, a major NASA flight facility...
I lived out west for five years before moving back to my native Virginia. I won't specify the state to avoid offending people, but I learned during that time what it truly is to live in an area where there's "nothing there."
Even though this video hasn't changed my mind too much on flag design, because I actually really personally prefer more simple, macroscopic flags, it is super important to understand WHY flags are the way they are and that these "rules" are subjective, and JJ does an immaculate amount of research to tell us why. Thank you JJ.
Okay, so the rules aren't as hard and fast as, say, laws of physics, but some of them do serve a practical purpose. Being distinctive and "readable" from afar is useful for identifying ships at sea, even today. Barring lettering isn't that important for a state flag, since we all have the same alphabet, but lettering on a national flag just makes it harder for people with a different language to understand.
@@benjaminrobinson3842 Did you watch the video you're commenting on? Why does being readable from afar or being understood by people from multiple languages matter for STATE flags? California isn't going to war with Texas (anytime soon), and there's no reason for a ship to know that a ship is from California (as opposed to just American).
As JJ points out, state flags are mostly symbolic and the most important place they're used is probably the gift shop.
@@xylo5750 Did you read the comment that you're replying to? I said, "Barring lettering isn't that important for a state flag ..." Although JJ's main point is the "rules" don't fit well with the purpose of state flags, he also heavily implied that they were arbitrary and served little importance generally, which I thought was was reaching a bit too far.
@@benjaminrobinson3842 The Saudis don't seem to care that most of the world can't read what's written on their flag… Never mind the Taliban.
Personally, what bothers me about lettering is that it renders the rest of the flag redundant: what's the point of using any designs when you can simply fly a blue sheet with your state's name in big white letters? (Or black on white, for that matter.) This is a parody of a flag, a sign printed on fabric, and very much an admission of failure in creating a distinctive visual identity.
Conversely, there are several examples of commercial logos that used to include the company name and eventually removed it, because it wasn't needed any more: people recognise the logos of Shell, Mastercard, Starbucks and McDonald's from the image alone. (Twitter as well, before Musk killed it.) Having a name in a logo is not bad per se, but not needing it is a sign that they've arrived: enjoying near-universal recognisability is high praise for a brand. And in a sense, nations and places are brands too.
I agree the "Rules of flag design" are often taken way to zealously online. However, I also believe that if enough people who care really feel that their state flag doesn't represent the state they should change it, and I'm happy to see so many better designs coming along like Utah and Mississipi. The less seal-on-a-bedsheet the better. Even a bad flag identity is better than no identity at all.
I am from Utah I much prefer the old flag. There is a major movement here to have the change reversed.
I agree, also 69th like. Nice.
@@jordanjames2956, no, there really isn’t. I have not heard a single a person here prefer the older flag over the newer one. Are you sure it isn’t just confirmation bias on your part?
The problem I have with the "Seal on a bedsheet" is that a Seal is a Seal, and a flag is a flag. You can have two different things. Get a pin with a seal to go with the patch of the flag on your backpack.
The "rules" of flag design aren't really rules, but they do give a good set of guidelines for a flag that works well as a flag. Indeed, a great flag might even break some of those rules for cause. I think I keep seeing the California flag as a flag that breaks one of the rules (the text especially), but it's a popular flag, and is certainly iconic. The Seal on a bedsheet flags though just seem lazy. At the very least, just take the elements *on* the seal and translate them into a flag. You don't need the supporters and heraldic embellishments that accompany the main escutcheon of the seal. Like Massachusetts, just put the guy and the star on a blue background. If you were going to make a Massachusetts Knights unit, and issue them state shields, would you put an image of the shield on the shield, or just what's on the shield on the real shield?
@Grimpen0 I am from Connecticut, and sometimes encorporating part of a seal doesn't work either. Our flag has a fancy shield shaped similar to the route 66 sign. In the middle of the shield, there are 3 grape vines. It isn't seal on a bed-sheet, but it looks like it from a far. The blue background doesn't help either. It's sad to me that none of the New English states incorporate Green into their flag.
As an Ohioian, I think our state flag is really cool. Our state seal is sooooo generic and I'm glad we don't have a SOB flag. Our state flag is the only one that isn't rectangle shape :)
Sublime rulez
There is also the Nepali flag 🇳🇵
@@doomer8965 I didn't realize Nepal was a US state.
yeah but you also have toledo, give it back
Rhode Island also isn't a rectangle.
One of the main problems I find with the “seal on bedsheet” flags are that they are not easily distinguishable. I feel that part of the job of these state flags are not to necessarily represent what the state is all about as much as it is to be easily identified as that’s certain states flag. The state seal is good for being more meaningful in the sense of showing what a state is all about, but flags are used to make groups identifiable and when all of the state flags look the same they fail at that purpose.
As a European the rule about "no seals" or "complicated design" has always felt wierd. I'm from Spain, our flag has a coat of arms with tons of symbolism and I know plenty of other european flags that do too. The idea of not using anything complicated in a flag seems to me an estetic preference based on a few modern while ignoring the cultural context of (many) others.
I don't see that many European cities or regions that even fly flags, they might have a coat of arms on road signs and the town hall, but they don't actually fly a flag anywhere. If they want to put a flag up it'll be the national flag sometimes accompanied by the EU flag.
The idea of not using anything complicated in a flag is because flags are intended to be seen from far away. You put a flag up on a flagpole for people to see. But the people are all on the ground. Putting things that they can't see in the thing you're putting on display defeats the purpose of displaying it in the first place.
Another European here, i think, there is a difference between a flag featuring a coat of arms, and over a dozen different flags all looking the same, except for the seal, a slightly different tone of blue, and maybe the name of the state in bold letters. Especially, when many of those seals are pretty complicated designs.
As a german, there are 3 (out of 16) german states in the FRG, which have flags, that are just their coat of arms on the federal flag, but its fine, as its only 3, and of those, Lower Saxony is pretty distinct, as the coat of arms is just a white horse on a red shield and Rhineland-Palatinate has its coat of arms placed in the corner, leaving only Saarland with a more complicated coat of arms in the Center.
I'm also from Spain. The thing about the principles is, they should be seen as guidelines. Spain's coat of arms is pretty complicated, but ultimately the point is that Spain's flag is very distinguishable, and I can more or less draw a simplified version of the coat of arms by memory.
@@sebastiano728 i think that coat of arms and seals are ok on flags as long as you can draw a simplified version of the flag that is recognizable. I noticed the Turkmenistan 🇹🇲 flag was noted as bad in the vexology guy’s book because it has 5 traditional rugs on it. You can easily just draw a red line with the green background and moon and still tell its Turkmenistan
I've always wished the Oregon flag could just be the beaver we have on the back without the seal on the front
Your flag has two different sides? I didn’t realize that was an option.
We in Oregon want a beaver with attitude. They're edgy, they're "in your face." You've heard the expression, "let's get busy"? Well, this is a beaver who gets "biz-zay!" Consistently and thoroughly.
I, however, would sooner support adding a third side than taking either side away.
I've always liked that we have a two-sided flag though. If we do change it, I think we should still have two sides
@@confusedowl297 just flip the primary side around. attach the pole on the other side.
Isn't it a problem that regular people don't love their state flags though? I've lived in New York and Chicago, and I've never seen a private citizen ever display a NY or Illinois flag even a single time. However, Chicago has a city flag that is considered popular and aesthetic, and if you walk around Chicago you'll see people displaying that flag everywhere - it creates a sense of identity and community there that other places lack.
Excellent point. A "Chicago" identity emerged with time more developed than a generic Illinois identity, and it's reflected in the adoption of an iconic symbol. As the video reminds us, other than places like Texas, most of the states did not have flags of their own that would be considered a flag "of the people" for the first century of the country: flags/ensigns were the colours of military units, and Great Seals were instruments *of the government".
Thank you! I know JJ mocks the "souvenir" factor, but its real. I've lived in a state that had a SOB (New Hampshire), and now live in Tennessee. People in NH have great pride in the state, and we have a strong cultural symbol to represent that love, The Old Man in the Mountain. Nobody from New Hampshire flies the state flag, the only persistant symbol we have is a rock formation that collapsed twenty years ago. We love it, but its a dead symbol that is meaningless to future generations.
TN's cultural symbol is its flag, and its alive: people love the design, they fly it proudly, they wear it on shirts, they have tristar bumper stickers. Its simple, its cool, and it will persist for generations. I wish NH could take the same pride in its flag.
As a counter point, I'm a finn and I rarely if ever see the flag outside of "flag flying days" and most people who do fly the flag only fly it few times a year e.g. independence day
NOLA flag as well
@@notabot5464what makes me especially sad is that new england states have so much to work with. we have so much history and potential symbolism that would make for amazing flag designs.
Recently my state, Utah, changed its official flag. While I don't especially dislike the flag it "replaced" I think the new simpler flag is much more modern and nice looking. It reminds me of the flag that I grew up with, the flag of Arizona, which I feel was designed ahead of its time.
I take pride in my home state Arizona's flag - you see it reused and repurposed everywhere here in marketing, art and the like, which I think is a good heuristic for good flag design. I also love the new redesign of the Utah flag, for many reasons including what CGP Grey highlighted - hexagons are the bestagons!
I don't really like the new utah flag, but it is better than the old one.
The SLC city flag is absolutely amazing, though
Utah's new flag is based. You can actually tell it apart from other flags now. Mountains on a flag are awesome
I really dislike the new utah state flag. It looks like a cheap logo. I am from Utah to btw.
Modern as in it looks like it was designed on a computer in the course of an afternoon.
Thank you for using the VA flag, as a Richmond native I've always liked my city's flag and the state flag. I mean who can honestly say their state flag contains a promise to kill all tyrants? I think that's badass
2nd best state motto, only to my state's: "Live Free or Die" :)
@@jakej2680 that does go hard
@@Rob-cw5mg Original 13 states tend to have the best ones. I think we still have a tendency to get a bit fired up about the revolution.
P.S. I took my mom down to Shenandoah NP for mother's day a few years ago. We visited Richmond on the way back on a whim, stopped at Maymont park and the Lewis Ginter Botanical Garden, and drove around and admired the streets of Richmond. What beautiful places and what a beautiful city. We both couldn't get over how pleasant the downtown city streets and neighborhoods are. So, as a dirty yankee, some of my fondest memories will always be in Virginia and in Richmond!
Not so much the traffic getting through DC though, that was literal hell.
VA native here myself from the 757!. I personally love our state flag!, in fact I personally have a 3X5 flag in my room. The birthday of VA is coming up and I’ll be displaying it outside on a flag pole. My favorite aspect of the VA state flag is what the seal depicts from a historical standpoint for VA, and since you’re a VA native you know! “Sic Semper Tyrannis”
And a little bit of skin is a bonus
I think my main issue with the the “seal on bedsheet” design is how formulaic it is. Washington’s use of a green background instead of a blue one is enough for it to stand out from the rest of the bunch. Standing out is more important than a fulfilling certain set of rules in my opinion.
100%.
I don't get why most states use blue in their backdrops. A lot of states need to change that to a more recognizable color that fits and represents their states history, and culture better.
Agreed -- I grew up in a "seal" state (WV), but the main design of the flag is more interesting (and distinguishable). I think that's the main problem with all the dark-blue seal flags -- if the backgrounds had more variety of color, they would be better.
Actually, since they are all state flags, perhaps they should have a common design theme.
I just think the big issue with US state flags is how similar are the ones with seals on them look, considering most of them are also blue. More unique flags allow for easier differentiation and also can represent the state’s culture and people
Ironically, as i irately pointed out on the CGP Grey video, the "no words on flags" HURTS the goodness of seal flags, it doesn't aid them.
like yeah, design-wise it might not be ideal, but shit, it benefits the flag's identifiability at a distance if it says WISCONSIN or VIRGINIA on it, doesn't it??
@@RickJaeger So let's just get rid of all flags and just have country / state nametags? That's very dumb. And what about when the wind flies in the other direction?
@@andrewbecker1013 That's not what I said. I agree that's dumb, though. That's why I didn't say that. Because that would be dumb. So instead I said something other than what you just said. If you didn't read what I said, I suggest you do that instead of asking me about things I didn't say.
@@RickJaeger I think the best bet is when possible have flags that rely on recognizable symbols of the state, most people don’t know what each state seal looks like, but it is easier to associate single symbols instead. A lot of redesign concepts focus on that, like Pennsylvania having a Keystone or New York the Statue of Liberty
@@zoopie_doop8957 Yes, I agree that it would be *nice,* even *optimal,* for flags to be more distinct in obvious ways.
However, that's ancillary to my point.
All of these vexillology nerds get all pissed off about all of these seal on a bedsheet designed flags, and then give out some of the most boring ass flag alternatives with three stripes and a star on it.
As a fan of flags, I’ve actually been leaning this way towards SOBs lately, and I’m glad I’m not alone.
I think there is value in preserving many of these old flags, because people tend to forget that they are tied to the history and traditions of their respective States. I’m a fan of at least retaining old SOBs as official “government flags” so that they continue to fly alongside any newer flags.
As a Mainer, I would just like to share my thoughts about my own flags discourse...
- First things first, in Maine we have an official seal flag and a pine tree flag that is unofficial but used to be the state flag
(it was changed to a seal flag to show a form of conformity and reverence to the national government during the civil war that many Mainers died fighting in)
-Anyway I think that both flags are neat but the pine tree one is better for one main reason. the current flag is detailed and has the slogan "dirigo" or "i lead" which is cool because Maine gets the first day light in the states and can be seen as a progressive metaphor. However I think the old flag is better because PEOPLE LIKE IT. You see it everywhere in this state and it's in the popular culture everywhere, you can buy it in so many places and I see it being flown in both right and left wing spaces. It has a tan color which many flags don't have and frankly it looks neat.
Finally I think that modern flag discourse has really become a conversation of identity (look at pride flags). In our modern world I don't think that going back to our old unique flag will in any way diminish the civil war meaning of the seal flag and I personally hope that the seal design stays as a great state seal. However the people have clearly spoken and we want a sleek and cool way to refer to our regional identity.
Yes, the old one was better.
I feel like flags shouldn't have rules, but they should mainly be based on how people fell, or something like that I think.
I'm literally wearing a shirt right now with the old pine tree flag on it! It's just really neat, I like the way it looks! I'm with you on this one (including your points about the motto, which I do quite like as well)
Never lived in Maine, but I like the pine tree flag, one of the few state flags that I recognize. Disappointed that it's no longer official -- though what difference does being "official" actually make? "Back Home Again in Indiana" is a blatant rip-off of Indiana's official state song, but hardly anyone knows or recognizes "On the Banks of the Wabash."
Exactly! I see quite a few old Maine flags flying and you can find the old Maine flag on so many things, but at least around me nobody flies the current flag.
JJ declaring war on CGP Grey I see
Maryland though 😍
@@Kibannn Maryland = best american state flag
I'm from Pennsylvania, and I love the design of our state seal (I even got a tattoo of it), but every time I see it on our flag, that pain blue background just looks wrong somehow, like it's incomplete or something... as if someone were planning on chromakeying the seal onto a really cool background, and just never got around to it.
I like this as a critique on the Internet flag obsessives. There is something dogmatic about a lot of aesthetic discussions online where simple design principles are treated as some unassailable truth, and that the belief in these artistic "rules" separates the savvy from the uncouth. This isn't just for flag design either. See also the "debates" on Comic Sans, or that Solar Sands video on Thomas Kinkade. Some of it almost feels like a politics of art, and in my opinion the worst adherents to these beliefs degrade the appeal and the potential of aesthetics itself.
That said, almost nobody is flying the seal flags at a sports game, or buying them as a souvenir. And I don't think we have to lose the history, significance, or artistry behind many of the seals to recognize that the blue seal flags aren't working for most people as pop flag art. A redesign that uses the Ted Kaye "rules" OR better utilizes the seals OR does something weird and new would probably be an improvement for all of these states.
I come from Slovenia, and we have a rather peculiar flag situation ourselves. We have for a long time had a national flag, that we wanted to adopt as our state flag upon independence. Just one problem - it was exactly the same as the Russian flag. So we stuck a small coat of arms on it and called it a day. But now there is a lot of mixed emotions about it: 1. it caused quite a controversy, when, at the height of the war, the Ukrainian government kindly asked our ambassador to remove it in case it were mistaken for the Russian one, 2. because it just so happens to be in the pan Slavic colours (completely coincidentally), which is a bit annoying, because our whole existence as a state is a total rejection of the idea of pan Slavism. But on the other hand, it has great historic connection to our land and people, it's the flag that was proudly flown upon our independence, and if you ask me, if I would change it... I don't know...
Don't care about others' opinions, be proud of your own symbols!
It may be hard but I think a redesign of Slovenia's flag could be great.
You should keep the tricolor as a base, but add symbol/color of the different part of the country (mainly littoral, Carniola and Stryia). And above give a greater importance and place to the coat-of-arm (or the replacement symbol). A simple solution could to be "Croatian way" (not 1:1 please) with coat-of-arm of the country and regions.
I mean it's really sad that the best (imo) flag Slovenia got was the Home Guard insigna.
As a Macedonian I would say don't change it. It looks great, and it perfectly fits with the Slovenian identity.
This is problematic for many new states. For example for centuries Bohemian flag was white-red, but when Bohemia was only a subdivision of of Habsburg monarchy or Czechoslovakia nobody really cared. But when Czechoslovakia split then for some time Poland and Czechia had identical flags with just different hues of red... so Czechia decided to revert to Czechoslovakian flag to avoid confusion. Also there is problem with Polish flag, because white-red vertical flag is used as international signal flag on sees. So we also slapped our coat of arms on the flag to use it on sees and called it a day.
And because the coat of arms of Slovenian flag is so small it can fail the only thing flags are design to be - be easily recognizable from afar on a flagpole. Slovakia which has also identical white-blue-red stripes as Russia at least has a very big coat of arms and it is easier to mistake it for Russian flag. If Slovenia would base it flag on coat of arms of County of Cilly instead of flag of Duchy of Carnolia then Slovenia would have one of the most easily to distinguish flags in the word (e.g. something like this eu4.paradoxwikis.com/images/thumb/7/71/Cilli.png/330px-Cilli.png ). But current design just blends into all of the current Slavic flags.
Also to be honest I am not really fan of bi- and tri-colour stripes, so I think that flag of my nation, Poland, is a little to bland and easy to mistake for something else. For example I would not mind if Poland would have as a flag rectangular version of this banner studioflag.pl/4026-large_default/proporzec-husarski-150x60cm-flaga-husarii.jpg but in current day and age putting anything similar to cross on Polish flag would probably end in a street fights...
@@DacLMK "As a Macedonian I would say don't change it. " Says the citizen whose country knuckled under the pressure and changed their flag. Dude, you guys had one of the *coolest* flags 30 years ago.
I come from Virginia, a state with a “SOB” flag design. I had been told that this design was chosen partly because, after the Civil War, flying a state flag seemed disrespectful to the American flag. Since it may come off as trying to put a state on the same level as the federal government. So, when states were making their flags, a trend was to keep them from looking too conspicuous. I have no idea if this true but I hope it is since it makes me feel a better affinity to my state flag especially one so lampooned online.
I learned this during my research as well and I regret not mentioning it. It's also one of the reasons why state flags were so long coming; there was this popular idea post-Civil War that "we only have ONE flag in the UNITED states!"
Kind of also explains a regional difference you might notice, states that were more to the north have SOB flags more often, and states that were more to the south tend to have more identitarian designs (there's also the accusation that those southern designs lift a suspicious amount of design elements from the Confederate flag, but that's a whole other can of worms.)
@@JJMcCullough that is still the mindset in India, which is why there are no state flags yet, although a few years ago Karnataka almost had one.
@@ianhomerpura8937 Fascinating.
Even if the flag has coat of arms on a flag (in USA for some weird reason seals instead coat of arms) it shout represent something if you would make a version without coat of arms... In the USA you would have like 40 fully blue flags representing nothing. Seal is a seal, it has it symbols and it is used to stamp official documents. Coat of arms is a elaborate graphical representation of something, while flag is the simplistic representation of the most important ideas from the coat of arms and should be at least somewhat distinguishable regardless if you put coat of arms on the flag or not. Flag is meant to fly on a flagpole and give at least a minimal clue where are you...
I would propose other test - remove coat of arms or seal from the flag, remove state name from the flag. If you still can tell what flag it is and what it symbolize than it passes a flag test. Otherwise why even bother with having flag? You already have a seal/coat of arms, just display it on something more rigid than a flag.
The B.C. flag may be too complicated for most people to draw from memory, but at least it is distinctive enough that no one is going to mistake it for anything other than perhaps some British-Uruguayan friendship organization.
And it's still not nearly as intricate as one of the seals.
That said, there is one major technological reason to want more distinctive designs: flag emojis. It's going to be very difficult to distinguish all those seal on a bedsheet flags when they're shrunk down to emoji size.
I'm from New York. I'm reasonably sure that nobody knows what our state flag looks like, but I think that New Yorkers have something better, which is the I Heart NY logo, which is immediately recognizable and all over every single souvenir. It doesn't follow all of the flag rules, but it comes close!
I was thinking the same thing - New York may not have a memorable flag but it does have several memorable symbols.
We should just make that our flag
@@jonathanmong4927 Such a flag would seem kind of fascist.
The slogan is propaganda and individuals buy it by choice.
Very good points. I'm personally still not a fan of the "seal on blue" flag for one main reason: distinctiveness. Even if a symbol is ultimately non-functional, I think it's important for a symbol to be easily distinguishable from other symbols, especially ones in the same category. And the seal-on-blue flags just tend to look the same. Basically, I don't think it matters whether a child can draw a flag, or whether it has words on it, but if your flag is hard to tell from another flag at a glance, I think changing it up a bit is a good idea.
Flag still ugo
I live in Minnesota, one of the states with a SOB flag. We had an incident where the state flag over the capitol building was put up upside down and went unnoticed for some time. I believe any flag should be distinct and recognizable from a distance. Minnesota did set up a committee to come up with a new flag design by next May. We shall see what happens.
Hi, I also live in Minnesota. Part of the issue with our present state flag is that there is too much "going on"; it is thought, as the poster said, a flag should be "distinct and recognizable from a distance." Right now, it isn't. But here in Minnesota, as in a number of other states, the issue of white colonialism vs. native and indigenous people of the era is on display. Too many state seals, and therefore the flags, indicate the "victory" of whites over native folk, interpretations of history from the 19th century.
I would have never thought people would think Virginia's flag was bad, it seems like it could be pretty iconic for us. I'd honestly think of it first as a symbol for our state then even the Virginia is for Lovers thing, that I don't know how I even conjured up from the depths of my memory just now.
We people in maryland actually celebrate our flag a lot- it's very popular and iconic down here. The history behind it is pretty cool too, dating back to the barons of baltimore and the civil war.
Fellow Marylander here. Yeah, it's one of the few things we got. We're kinda vanilla here. That and crabs. Still the best flag in the union though
@@oliverrainer5771 you've also got... The Wiiiiiire. (and a pretty cool aquarium downtown)
@@gfox9295 Baltimore Aquarium is so good!
@@oliverrainer5771 indeed! my family lived near Philly for a few years in the 90s and we several times made the drive down I-95 to Baltimore to go there, it was simply the best one around!
Maryland has one of the coolest flags of any american state in my opinion. Cali, texas and maryland are the best
JJ once again coming out with the freshest of hot takes
Well, you don't see students in seal-on-blue-field states wildly waving their flags at basketball games. Not so in Maryland, whose flag is striking, distinct, and recognizable for a state that frankly is none of those things. Why we love it.
I grew up in Maryland and ya, the flag was a very common site. I'd see people have em on their cars, have towels with the flag design on em at the beat, wear hats with the design. Its such a tacky looking mesh of design but that's what's great about it.
@@Zekana0 As a foriegner Maryland is my favourite state flag. It's so bright and unique and I absolutely adore it.
It might be worth pointing out that the basic design outline for the American Flag was approved in June of 1777, so the flag question was solved much faster than the Seal question.
Edit:
One more thing, the Great Seal of the United States features a shield with 13 stripes and a blue rectangle, basically some of the basic elements of the American Flag, so the seal couldn’t have existed without the flag.
As a Virginian I can’t help but notice the prominence of our flag in this video. I enjoyed cpg greys video and actually agreed with some of his points, but afterwards I saw on twitter an example of a redesigned flag for Virginia and I was repulsed by all of the designs. Virginia as one of the oldest institutions in British North America whose government history goes far beyond the founding of the USA. It would be a real shame to “culture wash” that rich history and symbolism of its origins simply for a supposedly good flag.
I'm not sure if you're talking about the same flag design that I'm looking up on Google, but the first result looks really good in my opinion (The one with the sword going through the crown). And it has some nice symbolism. And the second result(Basically the same as the current flag with the state seal, but with a design instead of just navy blue on the background) looks great too if you're looking to keep the seal.
Growing up in Ohio, I always loved our flag. I certainly couldn’t draw it as a child (I wouldn’t remember the placement of the stars) but the shape felt distinctive enough. I don’t know if it is a ‘good’ or ‘bad’ flag, but I really couldn’t care less. I just love it.
Do Ohioans often fly it? The shape seems challenging to mass produce
@@JJMcCullough I really only see it flown in Columbus or maybe by businesses in a downtown of a smaller city. That" Donald Trump as Rambo" flag is much more common to see in any hour-long trek through Ohio.
@@JJMcCullough It was much more common for me to see a miniature version, like the sort of thing you’d hand out at a parade.
It's usually considered a great flag because of it's distinct shape
It’s common in Columbus but less so in other cities, you might be more likely to find the “pride” variant or miniaturized souvenir versions elsewhere. Columbus’ two pro major sports teams incorporate the flag into their logos too so that helps too. I think this is more of a byproduct of Cincinnati and Cleveland having a lot of civic pride and their own well designed and popular flags than difficulty producing and finding an Ohio state flag.
In regards to not having words on flags, my mind went to many muslim countries who put their declaration of faith on their flags. It means something profound to them even if it breaks the flag rule book.
But a few things:
1. The writing is large and short enough to be read from a great distance, in contrast to many of the mottos on the US state flags.
2. The writing is not written standardly. It is a special calligraphic style meant to be more aesthetically pleasing. That is not the case with the words on US state flags either.
I think it's dumb, BECAUSE it's sacred.
Don't put holy things on places where it can easily or accidentally be desecrated, or where protesting the state might end up with you commiting blasphemy.
@@Nemeriangreat point! Some might see that as an advantage however.
@@chickenfishhybrid44authoritarians for instance
the cultural and religious reasons are exactly what makes it different though.
I'm so glad you made this video because what CPG Grey said about the South Carolina flag can never be forgiven
I agree with a lot of that. I live in Pennsylvania but my main gripe with the fact that half the states have a deal flag is that they are so similar it’s hard to tell them apart at a quick glance since most of them share the same color background
My issue with the "Seal on a Bedsheet" flags is less due to the supposed "Ugliness" (I'll admit I'm not a big fan of their aesthetics, but also acknowledge that this is a subjective thing, and not any sort of objective reason that they are "bad"), and more due to, as you say, around half the states having such a flag, meaning that, especially at a distance, they all kind of blend together. Perhaps I'm spoiled since I've mostly lived in states that have very colorful and/or distinctive flags (the three states I've lived the longest in are Maryland, Ohio, and Arizona), and so that's the norm that I personally think of when it comes to state flags. While it's obviously not a priority to do so, having fewer "Seal on a Bedsheet" flags overall would help keep them distinctive, and I think might help quell at least some of these arguments overall.
I've seen flag nerds go after those aforementioned states. Maryland obviously because its so busy. But Ohio, Arizona, and also Colorado often get called ugly a lot even though they are distinctive and are liked by the people who live in those states. I wonder if this sort of snobbery is why JJ is taking suck an extremist stance.
@@Moonlitwatersofaqua Yeah, those four are all REALLY GOOD flags, and quibbling with them over some list of rules is truly ridiculous. I actually think Arizona's is almost as good as New Mexico's, which is often considered the sine qua non of a good state flag.
@@MattMcIrvin I actually like Arizona's flag more than New Mexico's. Blasphemous I know. its a taste thing. And people should really learn to understand that.
As an Ohioan who loves the Ohio flag, I've noticed a lot of people complain about its weird shape while in the same breath saying Nepal has one of the best flags. It confuses me.
@@Moonlitwatersofaqua When have Arizona and Colorado been criticized? It is almost like a requirement to like our dear Arizona’s flag to be considered a vexillologist, since I’ve never heard anyone criticize it.
@@MattMcIrvin New Mexico has a good flag, but I hate it for its controversy.
The Zia sun symbol is displayed on the flag. It is displayed on sacred ceramics which may only stay with the pueblo. And the designer was inspired by…guess what? A likely stolen piece of Zia ceramic outside of the pueblo in a museum in New Mexico. Plus, the sun symbol may only be used with permission from the head of the Zia.
Can you guess if the New Mexico flag’s designer asked the Zia for permission to use their sacred symbol? Of course the designer didn’t ask the Native Americans! And the New Mexico flag is displayed everywhere today after being adopted, from license plates to, ironically, portable toilets!
Another day, another banger.
The most frustrating part of the CGPGrey video is how there are clearly flags he himself likes that he rated lowly for breaking the "rules" (basically everything between the FS and FB tiers).
This includes the Californian flag, which is very much iconic, recognizable, beloved by the community, etc, but got rated as FA for having text.
The other thing I found really frustrating is that he ranked Alabama Higher than Florida (because they’re the same flag except Florida has a seal), but Floridians love their flag and actually use it whereas Alabamans seem to be somewhat indifferent towards theirs.
The funny thing is that I’ve probably seen more University of Alabama flags around than I have state flags. Those are “bad” Flags, and yet they seem to enjoy more use.
California could be an easy S but the text (and to a much lesser degree the overt detail) drags it to b or c
That part bugged me, too. The flag of California is easily one of the most iconic in the entire nation. I wouldn't change a single part of it.
@@ShadowWizard123okay but is that because of the design or because it is the epicenter of much of American media?
@@thomastakesatollforthedark2231 it is absolutely the design. It's cool as hell
As a Michigander, I have to say, I do have a fairly heavy sense of pride in my state, and I have oft wished for a flag that I felt was more representative of the things I love about Michigan, and one that was not so similar to the flags of other states. But I had no idea of the historical significance of the seal. I still think I'd prefer something different, but I have a new appreciation.
Personally, I still don't love the SoB flags, but I really liked learning about your take specifically. I think for instance, the Maryland state flag which definitely falls under that super complex category is beloved despite breaking the flag rules, kind of discredits serious following of these rules. I think of even some of the state flags and a not blue background (for example Washington state is green) would help people be able to tell them apart and become a symbol people would be proud to have.
Wearing a blue shirt is such a great choice for this video! Thank you for adding the complexity and getting us out of the echo chamber.
Liquor, thanks for pointing that out. I didn't even notice, but you are so right.
I think there could be an argument for busier flags that break the minimalist rules of Kaye, but I think it's pretty self-evident that the seals on a bedsheet flags aren't great symbols that people identify with. There may be a couple of exceptions, but the flags I see people display are overwhelmingly the non-seal on a bedsheet types. Maryland's flag is complicated but I saw it displayed more in New York than the New York flag.
I've thought that its kinda fun to look at these overly detailed seals and pick out the small meanings within them. Im originally from one of those states and we did an activity on our state flag in elementary school. So im for them as well, JJ.
Your contrarian streak is why we love you. Never lose it JJ!
This might be the peak of Internet contrarianism; the history of seals is underappreciated though.
Yeah JJ just cant resist I feel.
Just being contrarian for the sake for being a contrarian.
It really isn't even contrarianism. Ironically, most of the "flag community" knows very little about the actual history or function of flags, and JJ demonstrated he knows more than them.
@@user-be7pw3sm7d no he pretty much just glossed over the function of flags to present how seals used to be more important and that somehow makes seals on flags okay...
As a Virginian I feel a great deal of attachment and pride for our flag. The symbolism is badass, and it has a booby!
Definitely a based flag.
@@theliberianball8553 Also as a Virginian, I disagree with your statement. Set the boobies free, I say.
Virginia is definitely an exception to the rule
Can we just use a non blue background, why do all the backgrounds neeed to be screen of death blue.
I'm not virginian and I generally dislike seal on a bedsheet flags, with the exception of the virgininan one, exactly for these reasons
Thanks for the interesting rebuttal on flag design. Gives me something to think about
I remember my Tennessee History class in middle school (twenty years ago) spending a great deal of time explaining our flag and seal. We learned about the Tri-Star's (flag) symbolism of the unity of the "Three Grand Divisions" of the state. Likewise, we were taught about the seal's representation of Tennessee's unique heritage of shipping and commerce (up and down the Mississippi via Memphis) alongside the same of its agriculture.
As a rule, I think most Americans undervalue their home states (except Texans, who overvalue theirs). I have generally noticed, however, that there is a sort of North vs South divide in this. It seems to me that more Southerners are overtly proud of their home states (and their respective symbols) than Northerners.
I imagine that divide is a lingering effect of the powerful cultural differences that birthed the Civil War in the first place. The North and the South developed strong and divergent forms of nationalism that led to two different parallel cultures developing, which made secession easy to accomplish.
I think the most common function for a flag nowadays is to appear in a tiny icon next to an athlete's name at a sporting event. It's definitely the case that when watching the olympics, some flags pop out as distinctly "good" because they are identifiable even at the tiny emoji level that gets printed on screen. That's where things like text and complex geometry tends to ruin things.
This pops up in Canada when you have the "coat of arms" flags of most provinces that are pretty much indistinguishable at small scales, and would be better symbols with just the coat of arms itself, which are on their own pretty cool.
It’s only really Manitoba vs Ontario that that’s a big issue with. Since Manitoba is a better province I think Ontario should have to change its flag.
My issue with your point on seals is that no one supports abolishing seals, it’s just that seals *typically* do not belong on flags as they serve different purposes. The US states that don’t have Seals On Bedsheets are also the ones most proud of their flags, and it’s been like that for a long time.
And I don’t think the aesthetic principles are Eurocentric as you say, many Non-European national flags for example like Japan, Nepal, Turkey, etc. are older than European ones and they still fit into the design principles.
It also can be said that “the flag rules” weren’t meant to be rules that must always be followed, but flag *principles*, they are meant to be a guidelines, not laws. As the author said, “Design principles are guidelines, not rules-they help designers create flags that will be effective, widely adopted, and loved. In some cases it makes sense to depart from the guidelines to reach a creative, compelling, or politically acceptable solution.”
I worked a couple years in graphic design making signs and from that perspective of "I was trained to use graphics as a medium to get people's attention and make something stand out," I'm decidedly not a fan of seal flags when they have no distinguishing factor aside from the seal (aka all the flags that just have a navy blue background). For example, as a Delawarean, I see our flag as very recognizable from other flags because we used a lighter shade of blue and put the coat of arms (which is the same design as the seal but without a border) over a yellow diamond in the center. Those two features are unique enough that you could line up every official flag on the planet and I would be still able to pick Delaware's out quickly and easily.
So I don't necessarily have an issue with the seals themselves, but the design around the seal could be improved from a solid navy blue background.
When content is transferred to a different medium, it needs to be modified and tailored accordingly. Flags that just bear a seal are almost as absurd as a U.S. flag adorned with the entire text of the declaration of independence.
That would be a cool flag!
@@JJMcCullough ever the contraian 😂
Saudi Arabia disagrees
Saudi Arabia works because from a far it looks like a solid bar of white
Blue field with a round seal containing the entire script of Bee Movie in microscopic print
This was interesting and helped me understand why the state flags ended up that way, but I'm left feeling that there's no contradiction between that history and the arguments of the people who don't like the bedsheet designs.
“A hate, which I am sad to say, I once mindlessly participated in but now feel a need to push back against” is the defining quote for my 30s.
My one complaint has always been, “make it recognizable from a distance or at a glance”. This stems from not being able to point out my state’s flag when around a bunch of other state flags. I’d prefer to remove the seal, probably because I’ve been bashed over the head by “the rules” one too many times. But even if the seal is kept, at least make the flag distinct.
As a Californian
We will never remove "CALIFORNIA REPUBLIC" from our flag.
We literally have the best flag
California is fine having words on its flag because the rest of the flag is so good. It balances out.
@@aAtom596 Exactly! Plus its very symbolic and Californians are very proud.
As a Californian, I personally wish we did because the STAR represents the former Republic (even if it only lasted 3ish weeks) and the bear represents California (even if we drove it to extinction). Adding “CALIFORNIA REPUBLIC” is simply redundant and defeats the purpose of a flag since it basically says “hey we know we aren’t recognizable by our flag which is supposed to easily identify us so here’s our name written out instead”. In all truth removing the words from the flag wouldn’t change its appearance that much and at long last we’d have an arguably perfect, symbolic, nonredundant flag.
@@GoofusPlays🧢
This is a really thought provoking video! It challenged my preconceived notions of the purpose and importance of both flags and seals.
Thank you for presenting the counterpoint! Well thought out and informative.
People take the 'flag rules' from Good Flag Bad Flag too seriously, even when I was younger I saw them more as guidelines than hard and fast rules, since even well-liked flags didn't abide by them. (like California)
This reminds me of how online the Japanese prefecture flags are worshipped, but I don't want all flags to be hyper-minimalist logos on a flag. If the US flag were designed today online vexillologists would probably complain about how complicated it is.
I think that a focus on historical significance/heritage matters as much if not more than a slick design. Taking notes from heraldry like Maryland did would probably be a good start.
Modern internet flagsperts if the US flag was designed today would say that it very clearly breaks the "Must be able to be easily drawn by a child" rule because drawing all the stars would make it too hard for kids. Or some BS like that.
Interestingly, those Japanese prefectural mon have been present since the 1880s. So after the war, they just simply used the mon they've been using for decades, and then used them in flags.
Fr lmao. Even back when I made my video on flags, I just found it ridiculous how Redditors take those flag standards as seriously as the Bible. Then again, I just think coat of arms look significantly cooler than the same bland shapes you see in every "flag suggestions"
@@PeruvianPotato they could have done something like the flag of Mexico though. Just the seal in its exquisite beauty, not everything.
Sometimes I feel like flagsperts want everything to be a tricolor. I remember cgp grey recommended this artist who made redesigns of all of the 50 states flags to have a uniform theme of red white and blue and followed all of the rules. It was so boring to look at.
Vexillology enthusiasts when I ask them to mention a single visual language principle other than those five rules:
Ted Kaye when he sees the South African flag (it has more than 5 colors, he's about to have an aneurysm):
@@xSimonTanThe funny thing that most people forget to mention is that in Good Flag, Bad Flag, Ted Kaye states that it’s okay to break “the rules” if it’s for a good reason, and states South Africa as a good example of this.
He also calls them “principles” as opposed to rules.
Getting so tilted by people brainlessly parroting Good Flag Bad Flag that you wrap back around to promoting flags that literally do not function as flags (indistinguishable from a distance) is way dumber to me tbh. This guy could've avoided this entire video just by looking at anything other than an intentionally simplified pamphlet ("Guiding Principles of Flag Design" also by NAVA comes to mind,) but it's easier to nitpick a very literal interpretation of GFBF and put the dumbest possible opinion in the title as clickbait I guess.
As soon as I saw the title I thought “Hey I saw a CGP Grey video about this recently.” Interesting to see different perspectives
This was very well explained and reasoned. I loved it! I live in Oregon, where we have one of those Seal on a Bedsheet flags. I always found it kinda boring, but over time grew to enjoy its complexity of imagery.
I think distinct at a distance is important. Nothing worse than trying to find your state flag amongst a field of blue.
I don't think it is. Is there any case where it's necessary to identify a state flag from a distance?
@@Vykk_Draygo I would say 97% of the time one sees a state flag it's in the state itself. So this business about having to "distinguish" them seems like a bit of a non-issue.
@@Vykk_Draygo If a flag is flying on a flagpole then it can only really be seen from a distance. So you're really asking whether it's necessary to be able to identify a flag that's being flown. I'd argue that if people can't identify a flag then there isn't any point to flying it in the first place
@@JJMcCullough I checked, and it's actually only 95.8% of the time, so you may want to reconsider.
/s
@@JJMcCullough I think this is a bit of a chicken-or-the-egg situation. Were state flags to be distinct from each other, I think it'd be way more likely that people would find it fitting to present a collection of state flags, such as per-state in the Senate or something like that for example.
By contrast, if someone was making a map of the USA, they might opt to not include the state flag alongside the labeling of their names for the precise reason that many flags are indistinct, especially if shrunk appropriately to fit alongside a labeling on a paged map.
In other words, I think we'd be more likely to see the state flags outside of just their own state if the flags were distinctive from each other. But because many are not, we do not.
I agree with you in the sense that if a flag is complicated that doesn’t make it bad, but I just think there’s a reason that places with Seal On Blue flags like South Dakota or Oregon don’t ever use their flags for public display.
I will give exceptions to Pennsylvania and Louisiana though because they actually have decent looking symbols being using in their flags.
Great video, loads of historical context presented, really made me change my view on flags as a whole. Maybe a future video of seals from different countries through history?
Ooo, I like this. I bet JJ could do a sequel about seal-equivalents in the non-European world.
My only real gripe about state flags is that a lot of them are just the state seal on a bedsheet, and if I was in state government I’d probably have a desire to acknowledge that the seal and the flag have different functions in communication
Exactly. At the very least, just take the elements from the escutcheon in the seal and put those on a piece of fabric. That's the BC flag JJ talks about. You don't have a picture of a shield with supporters, crests, compartments, motto, etc. all over it. You just take the Union Jack and the setting sun from the shield and slap it on a piece of fabric. It is literally the minimum that should be expected. I can also get a pin with the BC coat of arms to go with a patch of the BC flag for my satchel. Not having all the embellishments from the coat of arms on the flag doesn't diminish the coat of arms in any meaningful way.
The seal can be the seal, and the flag can be the flag, and they can even share the same design elements and components with literally being copy-paste on a blue background.
Right off the bat, I'm happy to see the Maine flag in the intro. We get so little attention, it's always a fun surprise when I see a mention.
I'm enthusiastic about the potential change. I would really like to be able to distinguish our flag at a distance, I think the original flag is a good design, etc.
I forgot about Maine. What a beauty of a place.
Maine is my favorite state to visit, it's underrated
Maine is a weird one though. You guys already had one of the best flags. Why did they change it to a generic blue flag with a seal still puzzles me.
@@ianhomerpura8937 It's a mystery to me, too.
Here are the rebuttals to your rebuttals:
1) Seals are great. But as seals.
The American states has both a seal and a flag. The seal would have the exact (or almost the exact) same significance even if it won't be on the flag.
The seal of Virginia, for instance, has no reason to represent both the official seal of Virginia AND the state flag of Virginia.
2) The functional purpose of a flag IS important. For example, when you cross the border from Vermont to New York you would like to know where Vermont ends and NY starts. Even the "esthetic preferences" you claimed are important.
When you see a flag in your TV on the background, you would like to know what state the person that is speaking, represents.
3) And most importantly, THOSE ARE NOT RULES. Those are guidelines that it would be better to consider and understand the meaning behind them before describing a flag.
They aren't really supposed to claim what's a "good" or "bad" flag - they are just demonstrations to why and how certain flags fit better to their practical and emotional purposes than other flags. Keep in mind, that
*you do not have to strictly and uncompromisingly follow all of them them to have a good flag.*
That video of CGP Grey does not represent the vexillogical community well, to say the least.
There are plenty of other popular repressions like r/Vexillology, the video of the YT channel Artifexian about flag design, or the YT channel Vexillographer.
So the document titled Good Flag, Bad Flag is not meant to imply that the examples they give are good or bad? And when it claims to lay out "five basic principles" of flag design, it doesn't really mean "principle" as the way the Oxford or Mirriam-Webster dictionaries define it but just as optional guidelines?
Seems like either the authors meant exactly that, or they chose their words very poorly.
@@abelb.7997 Yes, they are guidelines. There are always exceptions, but NAVA’s guidelines are created to help you in designing a good flag, which may still be regarded as good even if it doesn’t check all of the boxes in the “principles” given in the booklet.
Issue is that these guidelines are just bad lol.
Brazil is one of the most recognizable and beloved flags out there and it has multiple colours and text on the flag.
@@abelb.7997
The author is not the head of the Vexillogical community. Not to mention that spesific book is only small part out of NAVA itself, and it is a shame that all the critics never mention all the other and way more nuanced and detailed commission's reports.
In short, that book is never taken alone among Vexillogists and it is only one source.
@arnoldszwarzenegger6832
That's because Brazil's flag follows perfectly all the other guidelines, and the small text of "ordem e progresso"
is pretty insignificant and usually invisible compared to those.
BTW, that guideline was made exactly because you will never be able to read that on an actual flag, and it loses its meaning. The flag of Greece, for example, has a text in it, represented in a very good and clever way.
(And obviously, because it's one of the biggest and most populated countries on earth...)
I think that one thing to keep in mind is that, even in their modern use as decorations, the principle of being easily distinguishable is still important.
Thanks for sharing. Your reasonable explanations and your relaxed comments always make for a good video 👍
Not about state flags, but I also feel this about country flags, I mostly think of El Salvador along with the rest of Central America. I have seen people say they wish the flags were more distinctive, which while they are not, there are bigger issues the countries have to worry about than what the flags are. Along with that, the flags do mean something, in this case most are based on the Central American Federation, which was a short lived state in the area.
We just need to bring the union back, that would solve the flag problems.
And how it fell was not so pretty
The flags is central America are distinct and easy to tell apart except for Nicaragua
He is declaring war on the entire flag community and I love it
🤔 and I thought he was declaring war on the ANTI-flag community 😁
@@netgnostic1627 to be fair theres not really a difference
Good. Ironically, most of the "flag community" knows very little about the actual history or function of flags.
@@user-be7pw3sm7d tell me about it. Ironic really
@@user-be7pw3sm7d it’s more of an excuse to judge
Fundamentally, the very idea of flags is to display armorial bearings. Ted's rules are fairly well grounded in Heraldry
The rules for heraldry are equally simple:
It should be identifiable across the battlefield
It should have high enough contrast to enable this, resulting in the "No metal on Metal, no Color on Color" (see note below)
It should avoid unneeded clutter, noting that repeating patterns don't count as clutter.
Ideally, it should be able to be recognizably drawn by a herald overwatching the battle with a lack of skill at drawing.
It should be unique to the owner.
Good reference, if one can wade through the mighty tome, is Sir AC Fox-Davies, The Art of Heraldry. It discusses the history of flags.
Thank you for holding up my state flag at the end, there. I quite like it a lot. In the middle of a blue sea lies the state seal, a Roman plebeian slaying a king, with the motto: "Sic Semper Peratas," "Thus Always to Tyrants." Pretty cool, me thinks.
I agree that the “flag community” has gone too far, and I think CGP Grey has had a really negative impact (despite being a fan myself). However, I do think that a lot of state flags are just outdated and don’t really represent their states well.
Like you said, they’re mainly decorative objects, but the seal does not fulfill that purpose at all. 100 years ago it might’ve made sense to put the seals on flags since it was much more commonly seen and actually had a history in the state, that’s not how we really use flags today. They provide a sense of identity to a lot of states, and the states that have seal flags usually go somewhere else.
Pennsylvania has a lot of symbols used, like the keystone or the Liberty bell, but no one flies the flag because it isn’t distinctly Pennsylvania.
I think it’s reasonable for people to want something they feel represents them more than a 250 year old seal that looks more like something on a government document than a decoration for their front porch or coffee mug.
I do agree with that. At the time it was more of after thought because how much rare flags were flown now as it very easy to make and mass produce. People want more simple designs and way to say Hey I'm from this or that state
Speaking as someone from Utah, a state who recently change from its SOB flag, I’m really happy we changed it. Even as a kid I didn’t really like it, and it almost felt like we didn’t have a flag at all. I couldn’t connect to it in the same way I could the US flag. I was always jealous of all the other states with flags that were more distinctive.
Your BC flag is a “bad” flag sure, but it’s distinct. It’s very British Columbian, and clearly there’s a an emotional connection between its people and its flag. You never see that in Utah.
But now we have a new flag that does feel very Utahn to me and people have already started flying it, putting it on bumper stickers, etc. I’ve never seen that before with the old flag. It still honors the old seal, with the beehive, the most recognizable part of the old flag, and the only part anyone ever cared about it
But the republicans say it’s woke!
The seal is, of course, still the exact same seal
Regarding the British Columbian flag being a "Bad Flag" from the simplicity perspective, I would posit that it is approaching the "Maryland Point" meaning that what it lacks in sophistication and class it more than makes up for in distinctiveness and cultural relevance. So bad it's good, so to speak.
@@sarahereach I agree, I don't even think its that bad honestly.
@@JJMcCullough LOL Luckily most everyone I knew was excited about the change. Love your videos!
Counterpoint on the display aspect: ive been to different places around the country that have all 50 states (memorials, monuments, DC, etc) and its nearly impossible to tell which flags are which because most of them look the same. Seal on a bedsheet wouldnt be hated so much if it wasnt over half the states doing the same thing
The blue seal on a bed sheet flags are just boring and indistinguishable. And that's like 20 of them.
They aren't "bad" per re they're just so samey it's hard to get behind them.
Look at Japan
Same issue with ultra minimumism designs that has a history that's great but when you look at multiple it looks the same
@@monkofdarktimes I was thinking about it an I think it'd be kind of neat it every state did a Seal but with a state appropriate color or colors
While I think you are right that dogmatically applying these rules is silly, it’s also very obvious that most state flags are boring and unmemorable. I think most people agree with this, and the principles do give you a good sense for why, even if they are imperfect. I’d say the rules are useful to understand flags, but not to apply dogmatically (kind of like music theory). Maybe less accurate or useful than music theory, but I think its a decent analogy.
My main issue with seal on a bedsheet flags is that they don't allow for distinction between them. For example California has a flag that breaks several of the "rules", but I personally way prefer it to other flags, because even without the text clarifying it's California, it's unique enough that it's easy to pick it out from a line-up. I guess in my opinion it's not necessarily whether a child could draw it from memory, but whether a child could recognise it among other flags.
But overall I did really enjoy the video and learning about the history behind these flags, even if I don't necessarily agree with the conclusion.
Goldarnit JJ back with another banger
The seal thing is actually really interesting, it makes me kinda want to see a whole video on, like, the way other nation's subdivisions, like, make official documents. If it's the same stamped seal like in the US, or if there are unique trends for them that are different from that.
Wait till you see Liberia’s 😁
Theres a reason why the Chicagoan flag is 9000% more popular then the Illinois flag. And it isnt because folk from the city feel more comerodery with eachother then the whole state. The Californian flag is 9000% more popular then the Los Angeles flag.
Good design is good design.
And if I see a seal on a bedsheet flag waving in the USA I wouldnt know what state I'm in or what state this flag is representing. But if I see the Maryland flag, I immediately know whats up.
It might also be because people are prouder to be from Chicago than Illinois.
@@JJMcCullough Thats where the California point comes up. And Maryland also doesnt have mutch state pride but the flag is still relatively popular.
@@JJMcCullough I'm not sure if having a "good" flag really makes people more proud of the place, but i think it might give people a way to express it easier? In my state, Utah, I know there's a lot of people that are proud of the state, but I've never seen someone that had the flag outside of like, schools and government stuff.
We did change ours recently though, and i have seen a few of the flags flying around. I think it gives us something to latch onto to express that pride that we had before, but didnt show as much.
@@JJMcCullough With all the books, TV shows, movies, games, and especially all the music that probably at this point has paid homage to every single street in New York City yet how people don't care about the flag, I think it really is as simple as a visually-unappealing flag being sufficient to kill pride in a flag. I think that if the one of the most sentimentalized cities in the world can have this problem happen to it while a frequent target of deprecation by the city's residents such as Chicago still has a beloved flag, I think we can pretty conclusively say that whether a flag's design is something people find visually-appealing is in fact probably sufficient to create a sentimentalized flag and not accomplishing that just de-facto condemns the flag to obscurity.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but I think perhaps the fact that a hit song like "Empire State of Mind" whose music video oozes love for the city showing-off landmarks, people, art, architecture, the skyline, and the sights of the city in general, yet not once does that flag ever once appear. It might be a bit of hyperbolic tangent, but since I just re-watched the video for "Empire State of Mind" and remembered the line "Long live the World Trade," while the VIdeo showing images from the 9/11 Memorial and Museum, I will mention that when firefighters were at ground zero digging through the bathtub for survivors and recovering the dead, when they wanted to put-up a symbol of their pride in the face of adversity, they didn't once think to grab the New York City flag or New York State flag too while they were at it, they only went for the American flag. The other flags were frankly emotionally-disconnected from the actual people it ostensibly represents.
Also, I get that it might seem conceptually weird to ask why firefighters would care so much about the city's flag when this was a national tragedy, and that is a fair point. However, I shall circle back around to how great the Chicago flag is. The quite beloved Chicago flag is also quite prominently used by the Chicago Fire Department alongside with the US flag because the flag of Chicago is not just a great flag but one whose symbolism includes a homage to the Great Chicago Fire, so it makes way too much sense that already such a great flag would be quite prominently used.
The New York City flag is farther from the minds of New Yorkers than the country it mostly pays homage to. Perhaps it is because the design is really boring and you need a flag that can visually stand-out first and foremost? Perhaps it may be that New Yorkers have better things to be proud of that this flag symbolism is simply so old that it is completely irrelevant to anybody? Perhaps it's some combination of both? It might even be a combination of the two (though I still suspect the former is probably the bigger factor). No matter the case, the flag is frankly going to have to be replaced whole cloth to create something visually-appealing and symbolically relevant in order to create a flag which will actually connect with New York City..
@@JJMcCullough Then why is it that, seemingly, all the people that are most proud of where they are from just happen to have better flags? isnt it far more likely that people are more willing to show their local identity if their flag looks good? i think you're putting the cart before the horse here a bit
One thing I thought about the rules is how similar they are to the rules for good corporate logos. Seems like the would be designers think they have a similar purpose...
Also I enjoyed the video, thank you!
Most people take it at face value. Even Oregon has a unique flag, not only with its unique seal but with its reverse side having the beaver which gets completely overshadowed everytime these flags are mentioned
I appreciate your use of Virginia in the thumbnail. It’s definitely one of the better flags with state seals
Changing a flag is a symbolic way of saying that you are moving on from the past, and I admire that Tennessee, Mississippi and others have done that (and come up with beautiful designs). Flags are for people alive today, not in the 1700s.
Tennessee?
>Changing a flag is a symbolic way of saying that you are moving on from the past
Uh....why is that a priority? Your flag has no more meaning than the passing design of an iPhone has until you are "bored" with it.
Flags take years (generations) to build meaning, and events both tragic and triumphant, recorded onto it so that it actually has meaning beyond just that "I like it because it looks cool".
@@xandercruz900if your flag represents part of your history that you aren't proud of it makes sense to change it.
@@bruhbutwhytho2301 No it doesn't, because then your flag needs to change almost every 10 years based on some groups dislike of some aspect of your (place's here) history. There would be NO flags then!
If your flag represents part of your history that you aren't proud of...then it also can represent PART that you are.
@@bruhbutwhytho2301 The ex soviet republics are a great example of that, as every single one changed their flag upon gaining independence for very obvious reasons (Belarus is the only exception, but that is in itself a quite meaningful statement. Edit: even they changed it slightly, altering the ornament pattern and removing the hammer and sickle and star).
@@pascalausensi9592 Belarus actually changed their flag to the 1918 red-white-red Pahonia flag back in 1991. Then Lukashenko ruined everything and brought back the old Soviet era flag in 1995, because of the stupid premise that "the Pahonia flag was used by the pro -German collaborators" etc.