I noticed its older men who cant seem to fathom there was always a message. X-men is straight up civil rights. The first 3 episodes of the OG cartoon is basically about them being discriminated on lol
I think the newest wave I've seen so much controversy about was how upset conservatives were just at the *coding* of Gwen Stacy as a trans woman in the new Spider-Verse movie. Just her having a trans flag and a few nods to transfeminine experiences was enough for nazis to decry the movie as the decline of culture. It was so asinine.
3:37 "Straight as an arrow" is such a funny expression to me. Go watch some slow motion footage of a bow shooting an arrow, and let me know how straight that arrow stays. The only way I can interpret this is "hes straight, until it actually comes down to it"
People like to pretend that X-men isn’t an allegory for the Queer experience. Or just being a minority in general. It’s makes sense tho. Nuance tends to go over ignorant peoples heads.
People think that political and social issues aren’t the backbone of any media yet that’s the reason a lot of them are as compelling as they are. Imagine how bland anything would be if it was just mindless “Brr Lasers” as Kyle put it 😂
I love how conservatives think you can't suddenly discover a new aspect to yourself. I spent 24 years thinking I was straight until I realized I didn't want to *be* that pretty girl with the bouncing hair, I wanted to *be with* her. I spent 30 years thinking I was cis and just really, really vibed with trans and nonbinary people, until I realized I could *be* nonbinary.
Oh that’s a complete mood, I’m right there with you. Grew up in a very conservative area and it wasn’t until after my first year of college that I finally figured out I’m Bi. I’m still working on figuring out if I’m cis or if gender is more of a “meh, I’m not male and that’s about it” situation for me lol. It’s a journey for sure, but I’m glad I took the time to ask myself those questions and research the answers to those questions.
@@JohnJo-qn7wqWow, you accidentally came up with a very complicated question. Well, first part. A non-binary person (enby for short) is someone who does not identify as a man nor as a woman. It's an umbrella term for all those gender identities who don't fit into the binary, some of those being: someone who is neither of those, someone who fits into more than one category (masc - fem - other), or someone who swithes between two or more genders (that one is called being gender fluid). Second, can an enby be straight? No idea, but probably not? I mean, being straight is to be attracted to the opposite gender, and enbys could legitimately answer their gender as "maybe". What could possibly be the opposite of maybe? Ceirtantly? That ceirtantly doesn't help.
@@JohnJo-qn7wq I think Katwind's answer is a fair answer given that the term straight is laced in heteronormativity. Therefore, anything existing beyond the rigid understanding on identity and relationships from a heteronormativity framework are inherently non-cis, though certain individuals may still choose to identify as straight for various reasonings.
That idea of “the other” and dealing with being different, has always been a thing in comics. That’s what I’ve liked about comics. Look at Superman, the X-men, Wonder Woman.
@Rotom0479 gonna need some quotation marks around the """"""""""""""""""Everything""""""""""""""""" there, you're just butthurt because queer folk are showing up at all, be honest now.
Solid video. I never did like it when people pulled the "subtext of any kind means it isn't/was never intended to be canonical" scthick. Author intent is important to consider as well as the time period in which something was published.
As one of the gays,, as long as someone's not saying it in a bigoted context,, I'd say "the gays" is just fine,, I see it all the time in the queer community
@@sylve2474 well ya, as “one of them queers” i actually use the term a lot jokingly but it’s always just rubbed me the wrong way when straight ppl use it
Insane to me how one man managed to change the landscape of comics for decades ... Imagine how comics would be how now if Seduction of Innocent wasn't published
@Rotom0479 Then maybe stop making wild guesses based on the exact opposite of the history we experienced, that's child logic. More reasonable speculation based on extrapolation of the history that we have, rather than complete inversion, is that detective and horror comics would have retained a niche in the industry, but superhero comics would have continued to grow and also be able to tackle more subject matter, because that is something we actually have historical context for. Superhero comics *already existed* during that time and were indeed part of what was targeted directly by that scare campaign and were steadily gaining in popularity, and when the CCA leash was loosened, marvel and DC were able to get more adventurous with the kinds of stories they tell, which won critical and commercial acclaim.
@Rotom0479 That's not how this works genius, you're the one rocking up making bold claims. I hypothesised a more conservative guess, but I admit I could be wrong, you seem to always be keen to talk authoritatively from sheer ignorance.
@Rotom0479 The same words can have different meanings in different contexts. Conservative when relating to a hypothesis can refer to a careful guess, not jumping the gun, as opposed to Conservative as an ideology. Now if you're speculating that my guess was as wild and out there as yours was, then that is simply a matter of opinion, but you have failed to substantiate even the base assumptions that underline your core premise.
1:03:33 DUDE I LITERALLY SAY THIS ALL THE TIME. Its such a backwards kind of mentality. I grew up knowing kids who's parents let them play hyper-violent games where you mow people down and DECIMATE human beings with machine guns and bombs, snap a dog's neck, stab people, etc. But those same parents would cover their kids eyes if something sexual or (FEMALE NIPPLES) appeared in a movie or something. Its the exact same thing with media involving LGBTQ stuff, like how localized anime will remove hints of a character being gay (like you mentioned in the video about Japan's art and sailor moon). But for some reason the violence, HARMING PEOPLE is perfectly fine. People (at least in America), don't flinch, heck they even glorify violence, cheer it. But they are so prudish when it comes to the human body, sex or queer topics. Don't question the violence, question a character's perfectly normal sexual preference. I've had conversations with friends where I said "It would make more sense if the character was gay with how he's written." and they go. "Dude, why would you even SAY that?!" (Kingdom Hearts) But meanwhile the series involves so many crazy concepts, yet they are stuck on the characters being gay or queer. Americans, or maybe just humanity is so damn weird. Accepting something thats far worse, but making a taboo of something that's perfectly fine really. Sorry if this was hard to read, I tend to have a lot of frustrated thoughts stuck in my head that come spilling out. Like I've honestly been concerned about my friend group because despite us all being in our 20s, they still say things like "If you do X your GAY!!" or if I mention that I romanced a male character in Baldur's gate they'll go "WOOOOOOAAAAAH, FAAAAAG!!!" and like, I love these guys, we have a ton of fun, but this bothers me. I feel like this is stuff we did back in middle school...why do we care about someone's sexual preference? Are we really doing this? Are we really gonna be those guys that shame someone just because they are gay? Its frustrating.
My favorite thing about the Tim Drake debacle is DC has 2 separate popular Superboy/Robin ships and somehow found a way to make a bi Superboy and bi Robin while ALSO not making either of those ships cannon. Funniest company in the industry
Ace here, happy to hear the little nod to ace representation. Regarding the LGBTQIA+ acronym, I have recently been using GSD (gender and sexual diversity) more, as I feel it is more inclusive by being less explicit about enumerating identities
The reactions to Tim & Jon show that attitudes about bisexuality existing at all is still stuck in the 90s, by people who consider themselves open as much as those who don't, and it makes me depressed every time I see it. EDIT: It also bums me out that Wertham was so terrible about comics as a medium, because his work was important to desegregation & passing Title IX. In the macro, he contributed good to the world, but in the micro of comics, he's forever a monster.
Dang, and its , really? How hard it is to get bisexuality, existing. It goes way back, literally to og heroes, in greece myths. its so sad that its so not just given as a thing? God even with pretty good romances. or gilgamesh. :P, literally "he first hero", first known recorded epos itself.
Like my thing with Tim and Jon is Tim being Bi didn't come out of nowhere, him dating Bernard did. Like i have nothing against Jon being Bi, or other wise queer, i'm just get stuck at I got halfway to my childhood dream being cannon to just to have a different Superboy/man come out. Because Tim has been clearly into guys in some manner for most of his publication history and I when last I was reading stuff with Jon he was like "8" with Damian so not much to get a read on.
One of the comments pointed out that the German Psychiatrist did important work for desegregation. Sadly, it seems he went a bad path afterwards. Edit: Actually, to make it worse, he published 'Seduction of the Innocent' in the SAME YEAR as Brown v. Board of Education in 1954, where his research was cited in courts overturning segregation statutes!
@Rotom0479it killed genre comics for literal decades. We've only just begun to explore any other comic genres outside of superhero stories in the last decade or so. How in the hell is that a good thing to you?
Also for me personally it’s a red flag to say Batman and robin gave off queer vibes Bruce was in his 20s and dick was 10 at the time, the book Seduction of the Innocent said this because it was incredibly conservative and homophobic
@Rotom0479 regardless of what you may think, tim drake is bisexual. he is in fact sexually attracted to men and women. that's not going to change because of your homophobic views disguised as a "righteous" belief of saving him from "forced diversity".
@@rotten2thebit221yeah, it was a stretch to say that Batman and Robin were gay. And it's definitely a red flag because of how old robin was at the time. And just because someone reckons it gives a vibe isn't really evidence.
Let Wolverine and The Thing smoke cigars again… next to each other in bed. Like I know you didn’t get the scene explicitly but y’all definitely get the implication
@Rotom0479 Connor? Not as hard closed case as you thong. Tim? Even without the boyfriend... The man has been treating Connor on a level you do not see with bestfriends, unless you refer to *Several Roman Emperors and Alexander The Great.* He brought him back from the dead, when everyone else, *including Connor's girlfriend* have moved on.
@Rotom0479bro what? saying that the writers and companies don't get a say in what's canon is crazy 😭 what is ur goal here? to deny the existence of gay characters? as if tim liking a guy is the end of the world or even out of character. tim isn't even gay, he's bisexual, and him and connor have had many sexual undertones in their relationship. everything in fiction is pretty much up to interpretation, so unless they state something, people can think whatever they want. if people see a character as queer and express that, who are you to say otherwise? same as if you think a character is straight. but don't go out of your way to force the belief of a clearly queer character and make them straight. ur doing the same thing ur attempting to fight against. stating an opinion isn't forcing something, but attempting to correct someone's interpretation is. the new addition to gay people in fiction isn't far fetched. after all society holds such a negative view of homosexuality that it makes queer people afraid to speak out about their sexuality. even superhero's can feel that pressure.
@Rotom0479 the implication was deliberately inflammatory was clearly intended to strike a comparison to modern-day fearmongering and misinformation. Yes, a lot of abuse of children happened in the ancient world, a lot of heterosexual child abuse happened too, but to compare that to modern gay culture is deeply disingenuous.
@Rotom0479 Nop. Some kids are as it turns out, born gay, elder gays just want them to not hate themselves, if that's "ingraining" then the straights are trying to ingrain self-loathing into those kids. I know which one i find more concerning.
As a Bisexual man, I feel like a lot of characters who come out/revealed as bisexual get thrown around a lot. I don’t want to say this applies to every Bisexual character as I do think some work given the character (Mystique, Wonder Woman, Constantine, Catwoman), however I would be lying to myself if I said I didn’t feel like they just make a character Bi because of sexual reasons (I’m talking mainly about DC who if you currently looked up their wiki category for Bisexual characters is mostly women.) Still, a great vid, Ant.
It also feels like a (cynically) easier way for some writers to include or retcon queerness into existing rosters of characters, it appeals to a certain type of straight writer as a path of least resistance.
@leviadragon99 It's not that it's easier. It's that it's more lasting. More visible. For example, I'll use the X-men. Now, they've created a BUNCH of lgbtq characters to add to the team over the years (Wing, Stacy X, Graymalkin, Anole, Bling!) And they all pretty much fall off after whomever their initial writer leaves the book. They go on an adventure or two and then are thrown into the background for good. Or they're on a junior team and never graduate to the full X-men team. Or both. They never achieve that "classic X-men member" that characters like Nightcrawler, Beast, Psylocke and Gambit have. So they don't get reused like the classics do. So, by retconning Iceman into being gay, NOW the X-men have a gay member with lots of visibility. So it's not for a lack of trying. It's just the other characters don't catch fire. And how could they stand a chance when the classics list is 30 characters long? Like, if the writer is putting together a team and they need a psychic, who would you expect them to use, Karma or Emma Frost? If they also need the person to be Asian, now it's Karma vs Psylocke?
Thanks to this video I actually started reading "The Sea in You" on webtoons. I've actually just started becoming interested in mermaids and their lore, and I wanted to read more gay stories so this is perfect timing!
Also I think something we need to talk about more is how there were comic book burnings connected to queerness. Comics, being a Jewish-American storytelling medium, at a time when the main book burnings in history were nazis burning Jewish books about trans healthcare. The homophobia and antisemitism in backlash to older comics should be called out and condemned for what it was: nazi ideology living on in the US.
Queerness is super important to comics and I don't think just the campiness and colorful outfits. So many already think a lot of secret identies is similar to being in the closet but I want to point out one character who I feel is the most queer without actually being queer. Superman. Clark kent thought he was a normal kid and then found out he was different from the others so he thought something was wrong with him. That internal battle of feeling different so you are desperate to understand is important. He then hid it to blend in but he had to show his true self. He had to use his powers to save and help others be cause he would feel horrible if he didn't. And then when he finally had the words to describe it he has a lot of learning and figuring himself out. It is why I love the character. Because many say Clark Kent is his hidden identity. No he is Clark Kent. He just happens to also be Superman. He is human first who happens to be a Kryptonian. And that was important for me. Because even though I figured out I was trans , a lot of pre me is still me. It always was true to me. Same for Clark. Just him discovering himself as Superman just let him be the best version of himself. Just like how I can be myself to the fullest.
Good thing James Somerton was busted bc he would have descended on this video like the British Empire on an indigenous land capable of growing economic crops.
About Jon Kent - the "Son of Kal-El" series was the first queer superhero comic I read, and I thought it was pretty good. But what was strange to me is that Jon never actually discussed the issue with anyone, and there is no depiction of him thinking about it or wrestling with it... nothing like that. He never actually tells anyone that he's bi. From the way it's presented, I think most people would assume that suddenly kissing his boyfriend means that he's gay. He says and does nothing to keep viewers from that conclusion. We only know he's bi because that's what the DC press release said. Apart from the handful of panels where he is physically affectionate with Jay, his being bi has no effects on the story. It really feels like maybe the story was already written before they made the decision to depict Jon as queer, then they made a few changes last minute. I'd really like to see a story about Jon that digs deeper into his self-understanding. I haven't read any Tim Drake stories, so maybe I should try those. Hopefully it will be handled better there. Anyhow, great video! Thanks for making it.
Nice video, I'm all in support of it. I noticed an inconsistency between two of the statements made though: 9:04 "Batman and Robin were giving off that vibe [...] Wonder Woman and both her group of Amazons and her sorority girls at her local college were really, really giving off that vibe." 12:35 "His rant about how Batman and Robin are clearly doing all sorts of things behind closed doors, and Wonder Woman and her sorority girls [...], were not really backed up by any evidence at all. And he didn't seem able to handle the concept of a woman with female friends."
Wasn't Bucky Barnes killed off around the same time Batman and Robin got girlfriends because people couldn't be thinking Cap was having "queer thoughts" towards his sidekick?
The CCA and that bloody book by Wertham did violence upon the queer history in comics that still hasn't healed for a lot of characters. Wonder Woman in particular, so intimately tied to that aspect in her original incarnation, has never really recovered, the indelible mark left has prevented newer writers from really reconciling that, and thus she is perpetually handled unevenly by writers who fundamentally do not understand her, and a lot that outright do not care to.
Another fantastic video, and thank you so much for including the little section at the end of comics to read! f I may make a suggestion for future videos, how about the history of queer characters in manga/anime, or in animated shows? 😄 I have a modest collection of queer books: Legends and Lattes, Becky Chambers' Wayfarers series and Monk and Robot duology, The Raven Tower [Ann Leckie], the Avatar Kyoshi duology, Dragon Pearl and Tiger Honour [Yoon Ha Lee], Cemetery Boys [Aiden Thomas], Can't Spell Tea Without Treason [Rebecca Thorne]; and graphic novels/manga: Nimona, The Girl From The Sea, Witch Boy trilogy, Always Human, The Princess and The Grilled Cheese Sandwich, Crumbs, Mooncakes, Across A Field of Starlight, The Magic Fish, The Prince and The Dressmaker, and Wish and Cardcaptor Sakura omnibus editions. Oh, and Feet of Clay and Monstrous Regiment, can't forget Discworld. There's a bunch of webcomics I read that have great queer rep, too: Seven Days in Silverglen, The Prince of Southland, Novae, Be My Villain, O Human Star, and The Last Dimension. All except O Human Star are still on-going. Also, the phrase 'straight as an arrow' is very confusing to me because arrows go all bendy-bendy when you shoot them. I wonder how many people who use that as an analogy actually use bows.
@Rotom0479 What kind of video would you rather Mr. Anthony do instead, then? The history of queer characters in books, perhaps, or an analysis of queer characters in mythology. Lots of options.
@Rotom0479 Good thing I never tried RUclips-ing in any seriousness, since I also have terrible ideas and arguments. Wouldn't want to share them with anyone, they're all for me! 😈
@Rotom0479 Just out of curiosity, how many other RUclipsrs had the same terrible ideas and arguments, and how many of them did you successfully convince to stop Youtubing?
Yeah Marvel has always been like this way. I have read nearly all of their comics from 1961-76, and while I don't remember seeing any openly LGBTQ characters, the foundation was clearly there. Heroes had unusual relationships from the get go, like the romance between Scarlet Witch and Vision (1973). World reacts chaotically to a mutant-android relationship, many welcome it, many fear it will be a bad example to the world. Vision is even attacked by suicidal religious bigots, and almost dies. Quicksilver also can't handle it, forbids his sister from marrying an android, when it doesn't work he disowns her until she stops the relationship which she doesn't. So LGBTQ is an obvious evolution in Marvel.
Pretty sure Wolverine is bi and has been for awhile?!?!? There was that one universe where he was daring Hercules. And the panel that was shown I'm pretty sure was him and Nightcrawler, also bi, hopkingup unless I am Very Mistaken...
You are correct. I felt that part of the interview she had a lot of good points, but i also cut out a few bits because she got a few points about X-Men canon wrong and i didn't want to embarrass her.
I see almost like Willow's situation in btvs with her other universe self being "kinda gay", like sure it's not really you but surely it could mean that you might not be be straight if you searched yourself... And Willow was in fact gay... Wolverine being bisexual would make sense to me
Look i could talk about how laughable a character who is based on a greek myth hero who has an entire Wikipedia article listing his numerous male lovers is actually straight in his conception but I dont think im going to engage anymore because seeing " the gay crap" in the comment just tells me this is not in good faith .
This is one more reason why I hate that superhero media just continuously reuses the same characters forever. These characters end up having lots of different authors over many decades, which is exactly why you get the whiplash of "X person was cishet forever, and now they're suddenly not." This genre needs to both make new characters and allow older characters to fade out. It allows each IRL generation to have their own characters that represent them. It prevents there from being debates about which version is the "real" version of X character, like Adam West vs. Christian Bale. It allows for a bigger, more natural world, and better stories. But the ones controlling these IPs want to keep selling toys of the same characters forever.
I get that. I also think for us, superheroes are the modern day Greek myths. Hercules has new versions of his tale being told up to today. Hades has been constantly reimagined. Artemis has been queer, seen as straight, and reinvisioned as a lesbian or asexual again. I think there's room for these characters to continue on as well. Yes, make room for new ideas and characters. However, I also think there's plenty of room for multiple versions of them to exist within our modern myths.
@@legendswarble2845 As much as I like different interpretations of characters & media, it DOES get tiring after a while. Thing is, those Greek myths are public domain characters & settings while these comic book characters have their copyrights & trademarks in place at all times.
Bought both fun home and washington's gay general on pdf sales after this video. Happy to report, they both are really good and greatly written. Love color contrasts of the later's black white and blues especially.
Pardon if this has been pointed out already, but we shouldn:t overlook Michael Chabon's novel The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay or The Escapist graphic novel that emerged from it.
This comment kinda bothers me? Correct me if I'm wrong but the person didn't talk about anything sexual, and it's not like Robin was a baby, teenager at most, gay kids exist.
@Trinthegay it was refering to batman and robin sleeping in the same bed, ofcourse gay kids exist but that wasn't what they were referring to, love the pfp btw
I would also recommend a few more titles: Sainted Love (very erotic but fun gay time traveling) House of Slaughter Vol.1 and Vol.3 The oddly pedestrian life of Christopher Chaos Alan Scott Green Lantern The Summer Hikaru Died (for Manga readers)
But for real, its not an overtly gay book, but i do recommend Alpha Flight as a queer found family book especially after John Byrne’s run on the book. And yes only Northstar is queer, but the queerness is there if you look deeply enough into it especially in the ladder half of the book
@Rotom0479 that’s what I literally said. And sorry for projecting but the themes are there regardless. No offense but have you ever read Alpha Flight before?
@Rotom0479 you have a bunch of people who have many different life experiences who have came together to become a family. A lot of queer found families, usually come together because they didn’t have the support from their bio families a lot of the time and found solace in the people they surrounded themselves with. That’s the basics of it. Even though Alpha Flight did start out as a government run team, they all overtime became really close even if members changed out a lot of the time.
Comic books have always been made by and for people who are different, who don't fit the norm and have always been one of the most progressive pieces of any media. Which is why it's baffling to me when a reader sees something like this and says "this different isn't MY different so it sucks!"
Anyway I think Hal Jordan should be bisexual and genderfluid I think he has massive down low closeted ex military energy that secretly crossdresses then cries about it but that’s neither here nor there
I’ve read The Sea in You, it’s unfinished, but it’s great! As far as webcomic printings go I love Friends with Benefits by Nezkovsou as gender-fluid and ace rep.
I've been rewatching some older Simpsons. And in seasons 4 and 5...there are some pretty heavy implications that Bart and Grandpa are not....exactly the most heteronormative boys.
To play devil's advocate, there is a natural fear in animals of outsider groups of the same/similar species due to competition and other factors. Set aside politics and metaphysical arguments, it is a fact that humans are animals. Racial groups are not entirely social constructs but also biological manifestations of a single species undergoing changes in different population to best fit their environments. Just like the differences in lion subspecies, tiger subspecies, zebra subspecies etc. There is a biological instinct to certain levels of xenophobia. For example, Dr. Stephen Hawking made it clear that if extraterrestrial intelligence exists we would not want to make contact with them as they will likely do to us what the Anglos did to the Indigenous Americans. The modern fear of AI follows this same trend. So it is not unfounded for any group no matter now much institutional power they have to become defensive when there are rapid social changes and demographic shifts. Some who may identify as left leaning/progressive might find it ridiculous or even laughable that those of Western European heritage could fear becoming a marginalized group. But imagine for a second being in a mostly racially homogenous community and then have a flood of individuals from a foreign ethnic group take over your home and subjugate you and your family. That happened to many peoples across the globe over the past several centuries. Even some White ethnic groups such as Slavic people have experienced displacement and enslavement. We have driven other human species extinct due to our species's colonial actions, and even placed other species of great apes on the endangered species list because we don't value them as persons. We treat them as property. Every country has institutional pithecophobia which has been used to justify racism and experiment on marginalized groups of humans and other species of great apes; which the latter still to this day not only have no legal protections, but religious and political leaders often deny evolution and thus justifying excluding humans from the great ape category that does manifest not just socially and politically but even within academia. As someone who is queer in both regards to sexuality and gender identity, I do not make the devil's advocate argument lightly. I am also a supporter of great ape personhood which explains the emphasis on nonhuman great apes. While not an expert, I am knowledgable on these subjects by having a Bachelor's in anthropology. Conservative responses to LGBTQ+ peoples and issues is reactionary to mostly unfounded reasonings. Thus, it is fear for fear's sake. That said, social animals often react negatively to rapid social change. It took Christians nearly a thousand years to eradicate Pagan faiths from continental Europe. It took a few hundred years for Europeans to colonize the globe. No one said undoing hundreds of years of Christian nationalistic indoctrination will be quick and easy. Given my background, I am just as concerned about my rights as any other LGBTQ+ person. Though it is important to be sympathetic rather than reactionary. Trust me, it is tempting to be reactionary. My personal experiences often make me feel misanthropic because I have experienced prejudice from both cis heteronormative people and queer people. Mostly because of both cis and trans people saying non-binary people don't exist, bisexual erasure from both the straight and gay communities, and monogamy being so heavily ingrained into Western society that both the ruling class and many minority groups view polyamorous people as immoral and a "threat" to society. It is difficult to navigate the complexities of the human ape social fission-fusion constructions, but it is important to stay visible and have self respect while also having sympathy for those you disagree with vigorously.
Idk I think it's pretty fair to not have a lot of sympathy to people who do outright think you shouldn't exist. Respectability politics doesn't get you very far when people in positions of power would unironically prefer to see you dead than hear out arguments. Obviously it comes from a point of fear but that fear can twist even the most mild forms of expression and outreach into completely nebulous attacks on children with no basis in reality. Sure there might be a few more conservative younger people who can be brought over by being compassionate to them, and I do think that is an important thing to try and do, but I also think you must pick your battles and most of the time the people acting this way are far too gone to want to even hear a word from my (a trans woman) mouth. I think you can make videos that cross the aisle simply by being good enough on their own to pick up steam with younger people in the conservative movement and expose them to ideas they might not have heard otherwise, but making videos and content for that group exclusively can be exhausting and sometimes dangerous.
Iceman's mom: "Have you tried. . . Not being a mutant?" Of course a straight person wouldn't understand this as queer. THEY NEVER HAD THAT CONVERSATION
In studying the moral panic of comics, I came across a quote that Wertham actually claimed that an errant ink stain was actually Wonder Women's bush! 🏳️🌈
I bet there probably was some pre-code stuff that was really gay. Probably also really exploitative because they loved advertising stuff with "BLOOD! GUTS! DAMES!" back then, but still.
@Rotom0479 Oh really? I wasn't aware you were a scholar who had studied all pre-CCA comics in extensive detail, or maybe you're just speaking from confidant ignorance.
Considering how old they would be, I sadly wouldn't find it surprising if a lot of it has been lost due to the age of the papers such comics were drawn/printed on.
@@jamaisj Depends on where you lived back in those days buddy. I'm pretty sure in California, New York or Florida it was easy, but here in Tennessee? Not so much.
Okay, let me be civil and I hope anyone who replies will also be as civil and this won't devolve into a fight fest about men in underwear. Okay? Please? Alright. I always found the Idea of superheros to be a bit queer in itself. The idea of a man dressing up in skin tight spandex and fighting crime is in all that it means, is a little bit homosexual. Now of course I don't think superheros are bad. Far from it. I enjoy and love superheros. They are a symbol of hope and good. I also don't think homosexuals are bad either. They are still human just like me and you. I don't wish to demonzie any one. But that doesn't mean I can't look at costume superheros and think "That's a bit gay." Because it sort of is. If you saw a man at night, wearing underwear on his pants, or not even wearing pants, you would say that as well. In summary, the idea of costumed superheros is a bit gay in itself. Please for the love of pete don't be a little creature. Oh and like, DC and Marvel should just make superheros who happen to be homosexual. Not just an old hero now gay (unless it makes sense) or a gay superhero. Okay? Again don't make me lose more faith in humanity.
Those spandex and underpants type of costumes were actually inspired by the circus strongmen attires in the early 20the century. Origin wise there's nothing gay about them, they were actually seen as symbols of strength and masculinity, but they do look funny in normal modern life especially outside of comics (cosplay etc). Hence why more modern superheroes tend to favor armors etc.
Here's something I want to bring up cause I really wanna know where the line is drawn here. Part of the reason why so many are turning on this LGBT push in comics is when they are turning existing characters that have had decades worth of continuity and foundation, and turning them gay or bi or some form of that. This is the example I wanna use, during the Trial of Magneto story, captain America(Steve Rogers) was being written in a way where he had the hots for Northstars husband Kyle? What the heck was that? And then somebody is going to want to use that as a foundation for saying "See see SEE!!!!!!! Steve Rogers is bi, it was written that way in the comics" or go Google some panels up and try to say yeah, Steve's been bi all this time. This honesty just has been feeling like there is a deliberate push to try and make every character in marvel and DC some form of queer. And if your gonna say I'm wrong, you tell me, where is the line drawn. Cause everyone you meet you can find something in their lives to say yeah they queer, even though they are not but the perception is is that yeah, more and more characters are being changed to being given LGBT status. And cap wasnt the only example Even going to someone like Batman where a year or 2 ago, we had that issue of Batman looking like he had a crush on a boy when he was a teenager. Even going to someone like green lantern where a writer wanted to write him a pan or heck, it was revealed that a certain writer was trying to turn super boy trans? Love Hercules, and when he was revealed to be bi that made sense for the character. Even someone like Deadpool(whose the only character I love more then captain America) when he was revealed to be pan that made sense. Dude had sex with a literal skeleton and a space hippo(that he needed a crane to lift it off him the following morning) Same with wonder woman who yeah, spent centuries growing up in a island full of women and being taught men were bad so yeah, it made sense if she had a romance with some other woman during all that time. But then when you get to the level of every character has a reason to be queer so they must be queer, that is where a lot of people are revolting on this push in comics
Let me ask you this. Take every single character who has been reconned to be LGBTQA. Compare that to every straight character. You will quickly see that the sheer difference in number should settle your nerves.
@@agramuglia dude that is not answering the question. Your basically saying every character in comics is up for grabs to be turned/retconned into LGBT since half the overall characters in comics are not LGBT. When does it get to the point where making a character LGBT just cause it makes sense for them as opposed to turning the character LGBT just cause you want to turn them into that regardless of who they are. Are we turning the trinity for both marvel and DC to be LGBT cause half the population of characters are still straight? They tried doing that with Batman and wrote captain America to be that way not to long and your saying that's supposed to be alright?
@@agramuglia but that is not answering the question. Is every character up for grabs to be retconned to be LGBT? I listed that example specifically with cap and how out of character that felt where the writer just wanted to write cap being attracted to Kyle cause she thought that would be amusing. Tomorrow if it is announced every member of marvel and DCs Trinity are announced to be bi, is that ok cause there are other straight characters?
Here's a take from pansexual non american left leaning centrist: People dont know how to or dont want to communicate. And it works in both ways. -If you change Wolverine, people will say "thats not my Wolverine" That part is absolutely true and expecting people to blindly accept any kind of major character change, and yes, sexual identity does matter, is wishful thinking at best and egotistical idiocy at worst. When any character is depicted in a certain way for decades, in comics, movies, games and all other kinds of media, you really cant change their identity out of the blue and then make a surprise pikachu face when people get mad about it. Build it up, lay the groundwork, make the consumer say "yeah, that makes sense" When he sees the change. Also, your answer to the possible backlaah should never be to call everyone around you *bad people*. Customer is always right, and when you make your customer and your audience mad, that's your mistake. Reflect on your choices, find what you did wrong, take notes from other people's successes and do better next time. And also, making an event out of every new character introduction or coming out as queer should also stop or at least slow down, cause when you make an event out of every instance, it quickly become irritating. It should be a norm that people, in the best way possible, pay no mind to. same way they pay no mind to a character being straight white dude. Thats bad communication on one side, heres the other: Change is inevitable and the world is not the same as it was 10,20,50 years ago. Expecting everything to be about you, about majority, "normal" People is harmful to everyone. You get less stories, with less topics to read about and discuss, they dont get any representation they deserve. people love to point and laugh at New warriors, which is absolutely justified, but then those same people start to think that every piece of Queer media is like that. A soulless and forced Cringe cashgrag, made by talentless idiots. "Povestochka" As we say here. Its easy to find many more examples of that, cause any time Queer media fails, it makes all the headlines, at least in the part of internet i occupy. But when the reverse happens, and a piece of media specifically about queer folk, or just one including it, succeeds, media stays, mostly, silent. Its a deeply harmful and hypocritical approach. People love to mention stuff like BG3 or FF16, for being the most recent examples of good gay character writing(im mostly a gamer, sorry), which is true and thats the problem. They get only a passing mention here and there. Media oblitirates you for failing and barely pats you on the back for succeeding. And you know whats the funniest part? Most people, no matter the politics, just want good stories. (Cause most people arent extremist culture warriors). Prime example of it(pun not intended) is The Boys from Amazon. Its one of the most left leaning pieces of media I've seen, and thanks to good writing and amazing acting, it's praised by everyone i know. Same goes for more recent X-men 97. I wholeheartedly believe that Good writing transcendes any politics and that any author should focus on it first and on the message second, if they want to deliver said message to the masses, regardless of their worldview.
"But when the reverse happens, and a piece of media specifically about queer folk, or just one including it, succeeds, media stays, mostly, silent." Exactly. Very few of actual good quality queer media gets noticed by the media around here at least. Heck, in general there is a lot of really good pieces of media out there that are barely noticed at all, stuff that just showed up one time & has barely been talked about in years. Some of it goes further & becomes lost media that can go 99.9% undocumented online, with only the tiniest references to such material existing. Could you imagine some really good 80s underground gay comic book series you've read back in those days, but when you look it up there's practically nothing about it anywhere? No rips of the comics, no information about it, nothing. It's just... gone & perhaps you don't even have it anymore, which makes its disappearance all the more unfortunate for you.
I like the recommendations at the end. Still, I don't know if the solution here is just to consume better and hope the corporations take the right message. Surely there's other things we can do. Like talking to our neighbours about these kinds of things. Or getting into politics or activism.
@@agramuglia I suppose that's fair, though I don't think the two are so separate. You can talk to your neighbours about gay comics. That could insolate them against misinformation. You can do activism to oppose and undo book bans. You can do politics to protect diverse art and artists. We can improve the fabric of society by helping the arts. Heck, now I wanna talk to my neighbours about gay comics.
@Rotom0479 what the hey though, I'll tackle all of these bad arguments one by one. First, the notion that they have pursued politics over quality is based on... nothing at all. Good and bad stories have always existed in comics, the quality has remained more or less the same, if you perceive it as worse, you might be viewing it through a particular lens (hint, your bigotry) "derailing" fan-favourite characters, in your opinion. Just yours, and a handful of other terminally online weirdos admittedly, but a lot of these changes you rail against have either been popularly regarded by most readers, or have had most readers not care one way or another. Lastly, I will call a very small portion of the customers (people like you) bigots, because you are, if you cared about bad storytelling, you'd be holding the writers behind One More Day to account, and yet you're only protesting stuff that has minorities existing, because it offends your delicate bigot feefees.
Anyone have cool queer comics to recommend? Anything with drug use within the queer community? I'm not really into superhero stuff but maybe I'm just not into the Marvel, etc universe
@Rotom0479 I mean I thought it was good after I watched it too, I didn't comment this as some serious endorsement of Anthony's beliefs because I don't feel like seriously debating this subject, I just wanted to comment because when I saw this in my feed no one else had commented and I wanted to support a creator I liked, that's all
the internet is a vast place and you can find anything to fit a narrative... as a comic book reader 34 years now the business doesn't make sense. try taking a page out of manga and make it a genre so the business doesn't suffer because if not the industry will be dead in the next 10 years
Not gonna lie, the reason I got into the Transformers comics is because I found out that Ratchet basically gets a flowery swordsmech for a husband and I _had_ to see that happen. Y'all, I am not shitting you when I say every transformer in the 2005-19 IDW continuity is gay-
@@agramuglia It paid off! Looks way better, and it stopped the weird out of sync between your mouth and your words. Congrats on the success. It's great to see another person entering the media literacy and "anti-anti-woke" sphere.
Man the comics can't even decide if she's a white woman or black. The inconsistency and lack of real continuity is why I went to manga. I like one author with a specific vision. I've read Spider-Man for about 20 years and while I grew up, he did not. Hell Batman has been in his late 30s or early 40s since like the 1950s.
@@richborn6700 Selina Kyle in the main universes is depicted as white. Anything else is usually a different reality. Catwoman is a mantle worn by multiple characters among them an asian woman.
"Straight for 30yrs, and all of a sudden he's gay." Dude's brain would've melted during the 60s/70s. I guess he's never heard of the word closeted.
He's a right wing grifter.
The same logic for why there were no people of colour as lead characters in comics a few decades back.
We were in their heads. They weren't always gay. They were retconned.
Lots of comic book characters get retconned all the time
@@CatotheE Stan Lee himself approved of the change. You really gonna argue that?
@@desmondscalaro3669 Then stop pretending they were all just in the closet. They've been fundamentally changed.
we live in a timeline where gender queer was banned more than holy terror
@Rotom0479 hehehe are you triggered? You're going around acting like a spoiled brat. Hehehe
@Rotom0479 because all you did was leave insults. Hehehe give a criticism if you think you can jr
@Rotom0479 your first comment here, Jr. Come on, get with the game, or I may have to COMe and get you up to speed.
Imagine not understanding the X-Men are about minorities
@Rotom0479the x men are minorities themselves. how is it not about them?
@Rotom0479Suuuuuuuuure, they aren’t. Suuuuuuuuuure 😂😂😂😂😂😂
I noticed its older men who cant seem to fathom there was always a message. X-men is straight up civil rights. The first 3 episodes of the OG cartoon is basically about them being discriminated on lol
The straights are awfully into having a homogen society while being so afraid of the word homo 😉
But minorities don't control the box office, this channel was always attacking critical drinker and nerdrotic but it had low views
I think the newest wave I've seen so much controversy about was how upset conservatives were just at the *coding* of Gwen Stacy as a trans woman in the new Spider-Verse movie. Just her having a trans flag and a few nods to transfeminine experiences was enough for nazis to decry the movie as the decline of culture. It was so asinine.
3:37 "Straight as an arrow" is such a funny expression to me.
Go watch some slow motion footage of a bow shooting an arrow, and let me know how straight that arrow stays.
The only way I can interpret this is "hes straight, until it actually comes down to it"
Heterosexual so long as it remains totally at rest and unable to rise to its full potential
People like to pretend that X-men isn’t an allegory for the Queer experience. Or just being a minority in general. It’s makes sense tho. Nuance tends to go over ignorant peoples heads.
“Nah, it’s not about that. I just wanna see lasers go brrrr, not to think, waaaaah”
People think that political and social issues aren’t the backbone of any media yet that’s the reason a lot of them are as compelling as they are. Imagine how bland anything would be if it was just mindless “Brr Lasers” as Kyle put it 😂
I love how conservatives think you can't suddenly discover a new aspect to yourself. I spent 24 years thinking I was straight until I realized I didn't want to *be* that pretty girl with the bouncing hair, I wanted to *be with* her. I spent 30 years thinking I was cis and just really, really vibed with trans and nonbinary people, until I realized I could *be* nonbinary.
Oh that’s a complete mood, I’m right there with you. Grew up in a very conservative area and it wasn’t until after my first year of college that I finally figured out I’m Bi. I’m still working on figuring out if I’m cis or if gender is more of a “meh, I’m not male and that’s about it” situation for me lol. It’s a journey for sure, but I’m glad I took the time to ask myself those questions and research the answers to those questions.
@Rotom0479your world must be so small.
whats non binary and can they be straight? just asking i hope i didnt offend?
@@JohnJo-qn7wqWow, you accidentally came up with a very complicated question.
Well, first part. A non-binary person (enby for short) is someone who does not identify as a man nor as a woman. It's an umbrella term for all those gender identities who don't fit into the binary, some of those being: someone who is neither of those, someone who fits into more than one category (masc - fem - other), or someone who swithes between two or more genders (that one is called being gender fluid).
Second, can an enby be straight? No idea, but probably not? I mean, being straight is to be attracted to the opposite gender, and enbys could legitimately answer their gender as "maybe". What could possibly be the opposite of maybe? Ceirtantly? That ceirtantly doesn't help.
@@JohnJo-qn7wq I think Katwind's answer is a fair answer given that the term straight is laced in heteronormativity. Therefore, anything existing beyond the rigid understanding on identity and relationships from a heteronormativity framework are inherently non-cis, though certain individuals may still choose to identify as straight for various reasonings.
That idea of “the other” and dealing with being different, has always been a thing in comics. That’s what I’ve liked about comics. Look at Superman, the X-men, Wonder Woman.
@Rotom0479 gonna need some quotation marks around the """"""""""""""""""Everything""""""""""""""""" there, you're just butthurt because queer folk are showing up at all, be honest now.
Solid video. I never did like it when people pulled the "subtext of any kind means it isn't/was never intended to be canonical" scthick. Author intent is important to consider as well as the time period in which something was published.
comics are gay?
always have been
@Rotom0479 read comics
@Rotom0479yep ❤
@Rotom0479 you want to kiss boys don't you? Hehehe
@Rotom0479 come on rugrat you can do better... or did daddy beat that out of you too?
@@KingZNIN Shut up with this attitude trying your best to tease someone that's really not ok
As a straight guy I'm glad the gays are getting a W
love that for you but maybe just say gay people lol
As one of the gays,, as long as someone's not saying it in a bigoted context,, I'd say "the gays" is just fine,, I see it all the time in the queer community
@@sylve2474 well ya, as “one of them queers” i actually use the term a lot jokingly but it’s always just rubbed me the wrong way when straight ppl use it
@Rotom0479”ruining” lmao
@Rotom0479 scaredy cat
Insane to me how one man managed to change the landscape of comics for decades ... Imagine how comics would be how now if Seduction of Innocent wasn't published
@Rotom0479 Bold asumption there, of the back of (checks notes) zero evidence.
@Rotom0479 Then maybe stop making wild guesses based on the exact opposite of the history we experienced, that's child logic.
More reasonable speculation based on extrapolation of the history that we have, rather than complete inversion, is that detective and horror comics would have retained a niche in the industry, but superhero comics would have continued to grow and also be able to tackle more subject matter, because that is something we actually have historical context for.
Superhero comics *already existed* during that time and were indeed part of what was targeted directly by that scare campaign and were steadily gaining in popularity, and when the CCA leash was loosened, marvel and DC were able to get more adventurous with the kinds of stories they tell, which won critical and commercial acclaim.
@Rotom0479 uh, citation needed? do you have year on year sales figures to back up that vague vibe?
@Rotom0479 That's not how this works genius, you're the one rocking up making bold claims. I hypothesised a more conservative guess, but I admit I could be wrong, you seem to always be keen to talk authoritatively from sheer ignorance.
@Rotom0479 The same words can have different meanings in different contexts. Conservative when relating to a hypothesis can refer to a careful guess, not jumping the gun, as opposed to Conservative as an ideology.
Now if you're speculating that my guess was as wild and out there as yours was, then that is simply a matter of opinion, but you have failed to substantiate even the base assumptions that underline your core premise.
1:03:33 DUDE I LITERALLY SAY THIS ALL THE TIME.
Its such a backwards kind of mentality. I grew up knowing kids who's parents let them play hyper-violent games where you mow people down and DECIMATE human beings with machine guns and bombs, snap a dog's neck, stab people, etc. But those same parents would cover their kids eyes if something sexual or (FEMALE NIPPLES) appeared in a movie or something.
Its the exact same thing with media involving LGBTQ stuff, like how localized anime will remove hints of a character being gay (like you mentioned in the video about Japan's art and sailor moon).
But for some reason the violence, HARMING PEOPLE is perfectly fine. People (at least in America), don't flinch, heck they even glorify violence, cheer it. But they are so prudish when it comes to the human body, sex or queer topics.
Don't question the violence, question a character's perfectly normal sexual preference. I've had conversations with friends where I said "It would make more sense if the character was gay with how he's written." and they go. "Dude, why would you even SAY that?!" (Kingdom Hearts) But meanwhile the series involves so many crazy concepts, yet they are stuck on the characters being gay or queer.
Americans, or maybe just humanity is so damn weird. Accepting something thats far worse, but making a taboo of something that's perfectly fine really.
Sorry if this was hard to read, I tend to have a lot of frustrated thoughts stuck in my head that come spilling out. Like I've honestly been concerned about my friend group because despite us all being in our 20s, they still say things like "If you do X your GAY!!" or if I mention that I romanced a male character in Baldur's gate they'll go "WOOOOOOAAAAAH, FAAAAAG!!!"
and like, I love these guys, we have a ton of fun, but this bothers me. I feel like this is stuff we did back in middle school...why do we care about someone's sexual preference?
Are we really doing this? Are we really gonna be those guys that shame someone just because they are gay? Its frustrating.
On one hand, I thankfully never had friends like this.
On the other hand, *hello darkness my old friend.*
My favorite thing about the Tim Drake debacle is DC has 2 separate popular Superboy/Robin ships and somehow found a way to make a bi Superboy and bi Robin while ALSO not making either of those ships cannon. Funniest company in the industry
@Rotom0479 source?
@Rotom0479 that’s not a source that’s an anecdote
@Rotom0479 still not a source pal
@Rotom0479 a direct statement from DC or a current writer for both characters that states they aren’t canonically bi, pal
@Rotom0479 and a link to said source
Don't mean to double-comment, but thank you for reminding everyone that the A isn't for "ally". It's appreciated. 🖤
@Rotom0479 definitely isn't an ally
I wish there was a P in LGBTQA++ for pansexual
@@JuanPiece.the plus is in place to include everyone without having to write a pi’s length of letters to include everyone 😅
@@EvanAfton10 yeah, I guess
Ace here, happy to hear the little nod to ace representation. Regarding the LGBTQIA+ acronym, I have recently been using GSD (gender and sexual diversity) more, as I feel it is more inclusive by being less explicit about enumerating identities
The reactions to Tim & Jon show that attitudes about bisexuality existing at all is still stuck in the 90s, by people who consider themselves open as much as those who don't, and it makes me depressed every time I see it.
EDIT: It also bums me out that Wertham was so terrible about comics as a medium, because his work was important to desegregation & passing Title IX. In the macro, he contributed good to the world, but in the micro of comics, he's forever a monster.
Dang, and its , really? How hard it is to get bisexuality, existing.
It goes way back, literally to og heroes, in greece myths. its so sad that its so not just given as a thing? God even with pretty good romances.
or gilgamesh. :P, literally "he first hero", first known recorded epos itself.
Like my thing with Tim and Jon is Tim being Bi didn't come out of nowhere, him dating Bernard did. Like i have nothing against Jon being Bi, or other wise queer, i'm just get stuck at I got halfway to my childhood dream being cannon to just to have a different Superboy/man come out.
Because Tim has been clearly into guys in some manner for most of his publication history and I when last I was reading stuff with Jon he was like "8" with Damian so not much to get a read on.
@@Rhapsody0325 there's polyamory
@Rotom0479the copium in this comment is so funny
@Rotom0479 hehehe your lacking
I remember how Pat Robertson(may he rot) vilified comics, plus there was that German "psychiatrist" whose lame book brought the Comics Code Authority.
One of the comments pointed out that the German Psychiatrist did important work for desegregation. Sadly, it seems he went a bad path afterwards.
Edit: Actually, to make it worse, he published 'Seduction of the Innocent' in the SAME YEAR as Brown v. Board of Education in 1954, where his research was cited in courts overturning segregation statutes!
@Rotom0479nah if someone sucked ass in life they deserve shit talking even after they’re dead, being dead doesn’t make up for being a shit person
@Rotom0479 1. Why not?
2. Not really. Though I think Wertham is highly misunderstood, SotI is a fascinating read of someone not getting the point.
@Rotom0479it killed genre comics for literal decades. We've only just begun to explore any other comic genres outside of superhero stories in the last decade or so. How in the hell is that a good thing to you?
According to the bullies at my school they have always been gay and therefore me too lmao
@Rotom0479 You really have no life do you
@Rotom0479 The joke clearly went over your head
@Rotom0479 Man, if you can't even get a simple joke like that, then I don't understand why you're replying under every comment you see on this video
@Rotom0479 And if everyone but you gets the joke?
@Rotom0479 So it's only ever someone else's fault then, gotcha, perfectly reasonable and understandable mindset
Tim Drake was straight as an arrow!? Some of these people never read his comics lol
Also for me personally it’s a red flag to say Batman and robin gave off queer vibes
Bruce was in his 20s and dick was 10 at the time, the book Seduction of the Innocent said this because it was incredibly conservative and homophobic
@Rotom0479bro doesn't know people can be in the closet
@Rotom0479 regardless of what you may think, tim drake is bisexual. he is in fact sexually attracted to men and women. that's not going to change because of your homophobic views disguised as a "righteous" belief of saving him from "forced diversity".
@@rotten2thebit221yeah, it was a stretch to say that Batman and Robin were gay. And it's definitely a red flag because of how old robin was at the time. And just because someone reckons it gives a vibe isn't really evidence.
@@rotten2thebit221huge red flag. And just because it gives someone a vibe that make it so. I can't believe they used that as evidence.
Every time I hear "when did (insert media) become ____", I see a person who hasn't been paying attention.
A feature length video...man weren't kidding it was a long one.
@Rotom0479 Dude, no one forced you to watch the video, or click on the channel. So that one is on you.
Let Wolverine and Thing smoke cigars again! Next, let Tim Drake date Conner Kent, you cowards!
@Rotom0479 Tim and Connor are fictional characters, and are what DC’s Corporate overlords at Time Warner dictate them to be. It is what it is.
Let Wolverine and The Thing smoke cigars again… next to each other in bed. Like I know you didn’t get the scene explicitly but y’all definitely get the implication
@Rotom0479
Connor? Not as hard closed case as you thong.
Tim? Even without the boyfriend...
The man has been treating Connor on a level you do not see with bestfriends, unless you refer to *Several Roman Emperors and Alexander The Great.*
He brought him back from the dead, when everyone else, *including Connor's girlfriend* have moved on.
@Rotom0479
Wolverine has a storyline where he was married to Hercules.
And Beast...
@Rotom0479bro what? saying that the writers and companies don't get a say in what's canon is crazy 😭
what is ur goal here? to deny the existence of gay characters? as if tim liking a guy is the end of the world or even out of character. tim isn't even gay, he's bisexual, and him and connor have had many sexual undertones in their relationship. everything in fiction is pretty much up to interpretation, so unless they state something, people can think whatever they want. if people see a character as queer and express that, who are you to say otherwise? same as if you think a character is straight. but don't go out of your way to force the belief of a clearly queer character and make them straight. ur doing the same thing ur attempting to fight against. stating an opinion isn't forcing something, but attempting to correct someone's interpretation is.
the new addition to gay people in fiction isn't far fetched. after all society holds such a negative view of homosexuality that it makes queer people afraid to speak out about their sexuality. even superhero's can feel that pressure.
The comment section will be civil and understanding... right?
Yes😊
@@zainmudassir2964 fingers crossed 🤞
right?!
Eh, could be.
I hope so
Superhero comic books in the 1950s were turnin’ the freaking frogs gay! Do you understand that? Raaaaaaaagh! Get behind me, Satan!
Next you'll be telling me the Greeks were gay, psfhaw!
What are you talking about? Of course the Greeks were kiddy fiddlers.
Wdym, of course not,,, Achilles and patroclus were just good friends🙄
@@SaberSin-mu4ktlow quality bait
@Rotom0479 the implication was deliberately inflammatory was clearly intended to strike a comparison to modern-day fearmongering and misinformation. Yes, a lot of abuse of children happened in the ancient world, a lot of heterosexual child abuse happened too, but to compare that to modern gay culture is deeply disingenuous.
@Rotom0479 Nop. Some kids are as it turns out, born gay, elder gays just want them to not hate themselves, if that's "ingraining" then the straights are trying to ingrain self-loathing into those kids. I know which one i find more concerning.
The first queer comic book characters I came across were Batwoman, Wiccan and Hulkling, and that was back in 2015, I was a young teen.
As a Bisexual man, I feel like a lot of characters who come out/revealed as bisexual get thrown around a lot.
I don’t want to say this applies to every Bisexual character as I do think some work given the character (Mystique, Wonder Woman, Constantine, Catwoman), however I would be lying to myself if I said I didn’t feel like they just make a character Bi because of sexual reasons (I’m talking mainly about DC who if you currently looked up their wiki category for Bisexual characters is mostly women.)
Still, a great vid, Ant.
That's what I said! Like, how is it ALL of Batman's female villains are bisexual but only ONE of his male villains is SOMETIMES Lgbtq (Riddler)?
@@jerfuhrer2581I thought Catman was bi?
That's patriarchy shit, they make women bi so they can fantasize about lesbian relationships while still having the "real love" option with a man.
It also feels like a (cynically) easier way for some writers to include or retcon queerness into existing rosters of characters, it appeals to a certain type of straight writer as a path of least resistance.
@leviadragon99 It's not that it's easier. It's that it's more lasting. More visible. For example, I'll use the X-men. Now, they've created a BUNCH of lgbtq characters to add to the team over the years (Wing, Stacy X, Graymalkin, Anole, Bling!) And they all pretty much fall off after whomever their initial writer leaves the book. They go on an adventure or two and then are thrown into the background for good. Or they're on a junior team and never graduate to the full X-men team. Or both. They never achieve that "classic X-men member" that characters like Nightcrawler, Beast, Psylocke and Gambit have. So they don't get reused like the classics do. So, by retconning Iceman into being gay, NOW the X-men have a gay member with lots of visibility. So it's not for a lack of trying. It's just the other characters don't catch fire. And how could they stand a chance when the classics list is 30 characters long? Like, if the writer is putting together a team and they need a psychic, who would you expect them to use, Karma or Emma Frost? If they also need the person to be Asian, now it's Karma vs Psylocke?
Love your videos, my fellow bi king! This one is beyond important.
Thanks to this video I actually started reading "The Sea in You" on webtoons. I've actually just started becoming interested in mermaids and their lore, and I wanted to read more gay stories so this is perfect timing!
Also I think something we need to talk about more is how there were comic book burnings connected to queerness. Comics, being a Jewish-American storytelling medium, at a time when the main book burnings in history were nazis burning Jewish books about trans healthcare. The homophobia and antisemitism in backlash to older comics should be called out and condemned for what it was: nazi ideology living on in the US.
Queerness is super important to comics and I don't think just the campiness and colorful outfits. So many already think a lot of secret identies is similar to being in the closet but I want to point out one character who I feel is the most queer without actually being queer. Superman. Clark kent thought he was a normal kid and then found out he was different from the others so he thought something was wrong with him. That internal battle of feeling different so you are desperate to understand is important. He then hid it to blend in but he had to show his true self. He had to use his powers to save and help others be cause he would feel horrible if he didn't.
And then when he finally had the words to describe it he has a lot of learning and figuring himself out. It is why I love the character. Because many say Clark Kent is his hidden identity. No he is Clark Kent. He just happens to also be Superman. He is human first who happens to be a Kryptonian. And that was important for me. Because even though I figured out I was trans , a lot of pre me is still me. It always was true to me. Same for Clark. Just him discovering himself as Superman just let him be the best version of himself. Just like how I can be myself to the fullest.
Good thing James Somerton was busted bc he would have descended on this video like the British Empire on an indigenous land capable of growing economic crops.
One of the many reasons Joel Schumacher understood Batman and made the best Batman movies.
About Jon Kent - the "Son of Kal-El" series was the first queer superhero comic I read, and I thought it was pretty good. But what was strange to me is that Jon never actually discussed the issue with anyone, and there is no depiction of him thinking about it or wrestling with it... nothing like that. He never actually tells anyone that he's bi. From the way it's presented, I think most people would assume that suddenly kissing his boyfriend means that he's gay. He says and does nothing to keep viewers from that conclusion. We only know he's bi because that's what the DC press release said. Apart from the handful of panels where he is physically affectionate with Jay, his being bi has no effects on the story. It really feels like maybe the story was already written before they made the decision to depict Jon as queer, then they made a few changes last minute.
I'd really like to see a story about Jon that digs deeper into his self-understanding.
I haven't read any Tim Drake stories, so maybe I should try those. Hopefully it will be handled better there.
Anyhow, great video! Thanks for making it.
@Rotom0479 Well that's just like, your opinion man.
Nice video, I'm all in support of it. I noticed an inconsistency between two of the statements made though:
9:04 "Batman and Robin were giving off that vibe [...] Wonder Woman and both her group of Amazons and her sorority girls at her local college were really, really giving off that vibe."
12:35 "His rant about how Batman and Robin are clearly doing all sorts of things behind closed doors, and Wonder Woman and her sorority girls [...], were not really backed up by any evidence at all. And he didn't seem able to handle the concept of a woman with female friends."
I still love the fact that the most iconic version of Batman was voiced by an openly gay man.
Wasn't Bucky Barnes killed off around the same time Batman and Robin got girlfriends because people couldn't be thinking Cap was having "queer thoughts" towards his sidekick?
Seduction of the Innocent
The CCA and that bloody book by Wertham did violence upon the queer history in comics that still hasn't healed for a lot of characters.
Wonder Woman in particular, so intimately tied to that aspect in her original incarnation, has never really recovered, the indelible mark left has prevented newer writers from really reconciling that, and thus she is perpetually handled unevenly by writers who fundamentally do not understand her, and a lot that outright do not care to.
@Rotom0479 Madam actually. And man you are just everywhere huh? don't you get tired of just "nu-uh"-ing everything?
@Rotom0479 I dunno, you seem to be doing a great job of spreading it so far.
@Rotom0479 Every single thing you have said in all the time I have known you.
The ace acknowledgement is so appreciated,, love to see it!🖤🩶🤍💜
@Rotom0479 Ace is short for Asexual. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexuality
@@Arella-Frost Thank you.
Another fantastic video, and thank you so much for including the little section at the end of comics to read! f I may make a suggestion for future videos, how about the history of queer characters in manga/anime, or in animated shows? 😄
I have a modest collection of queer books: Legends and Lattes, Becky Chambers' Wayfarers series and Monk and Robot duology, The Raven Tower [Ann Leckie], the Avatar Kyoshi duology, Dragon Pearl and Tiger Honour [Yoon Ha Lee], Cemetery Boys [Aiden Thomas], Can't Spell Tea Without Treason [Rebecca Thorne];
and graphic novels/manga: Nimona, The Girl From The Sea, Witch Boy trilogy, Always Human, The Princess and The Grilled Cheese Sandwich, Crumbs, Mooncakes, Across A Field of Starlight, The Magic Fish, The Prince and The Dressmaker, and Wish and Cardcaptor Sakura omnibus editions. Oh, and Feet of Clay and Monstrous Regiment, can't forget Discworld.
There's a bunch of webcomics I read that have great queer rep, too: Seven Days in Silverglen, The Prince of Southland, Novae, Be My Villain, O Human Star, and The Last Dimension. All except O Human Star are still on-going.
Also, the phrase 'straight as an arrow' is very confusing to me because arrows go all bendy-bendy when you shoot them. I wonder how many people who use that as an analogy actually use bows.
@Rotom0479 How about a HECK YEAH! 😇😈🌈
@Rotom0479 I don't actually know what specific thing you're saying 'no' to [though I can certainly guess], but it's very funny regardless.
@Rotom0479 What kind of video would you rather Mr. Anthony do instead, then? The history of queer characters in books, perhaps, or an analysis of queer characters in mythology. Lots of options.
@Rotom0479 Good thing I never tried RUclips-ing in any seriousness, since I also have terrible ideas and arguments. Wouldn't want to share them with anyone, they're all for me! 😈
@Rotom0479 Just out of curiosity, how many other RUclipsrs had the same terrible ideas and arguments, and how many of them did you successfully convince to stop Youtubing?
The OSP and Extra Credits would have been proud of Anthony, if ofcourse they were aware of him to begin with.
Any mention of Madame Fatal gets my ears perked!
"Since when have comic books been gay?" Isn't a question, it's a confesion.
Yeah Marvel has always been like this way. I have read nearly all of their comics from 1961-76, and while I don't remember seeing any openly LGBTQ characters, the foundation was clearly there. Heroes had unusual relationships from the get go, like the romance between Scarlet Witch and Vision (1973). World reacts chaotically to a mutant-android relationship, many welcome it, many fear it will be a bad example to the world. Vision is even attacked by suicidal religious bigots, and almost dies. Quicksilver also can't handle it, forbids his sister from marrying an android, when it doesn't work he disowns her until she stops the relationship which she doesn't. So LGBTQ is an obvious evolution in Marvel.
Pretty sure Wolverine is bi and has been for awhile?!?!? There was that one universe where he was daring Hercules. And the panel that was shown I'm pretty sure was him and Nightcrawler, also bi, hopkingup unless I am Very Mistaken...
You are correct. I felt that part of the interview she had a lot of good points, but i also cut out a few bits because she got a few points about X-Men canon wrong and i didn't want to embarrass her.
I'm not sure other-dimensional versions count.
I see almost like Willow's situation in btvs with her other universe self being "kinda gay", like sure it's not really you but surely it could mean that you might not be be straight if you searched yourself... And Willow was in fact gay...
Wolverine being bisexual would make sense to me
@Rotom0479 Hercules is in fact, bisexual, in every interaction or form, canonically
Look i could talk about how laughable a character who is based on a greek myth hero who has an entire Wikipedia article listing his numerous male lovers is actually straight in his conception but I dont think im going to engage anymore because seeing " the gay crap" in the comment just tells me this is not in good faith .
This is one more reason why I hate that superhero media just continuously reuses the same characters forever. These characters end up having lots of different authors over many decades, which is exactly why you get the whiplash of "X person was cishet forever, and now they're suddenly not." This genre needs to both make new characters and allow older characters to fade out. It allows each IRL generation to have their own characters that represent them. It prevents there from being debates about which version is the "real" version of X character, like Adam West vs. Christian Bale. It allows for a bigger, more natural world, and better stories.
But the ones controlling these IPs want to keep selling toys of the same characters forever.
I get that. I also think for us, superheroes are the modern day Greek myths. Hercules has new versions of his tale being told up to today. Hades has been constantly reimagined. Artemis has been queer, seen as straight, and reinvisioned as a lesbian or asexual again.
I think there's room for these characters to continue on as well. Yes, make room for new ideas and characters. However, I also think there's plenty of room for multiple versions of them to exist within our modern myths.
@@legendswarble2845 As much as I like different interpretations of characters & media, it DOES get tiring after a while. Thing is, those Greek myths are public domain characters & settings while these comic book characters have their copyrights & trademarks in place at all times.
Bought both fun home and washington's gay general on pdf sales after this video. Happy to report, they both are really good and greatly written. Love color contrasts of the later's black white and blues especially.
OMG I went to college with Justin Hall! He adapted a short story I wrote! Such an amazing talented artist.
Another upload another banger, love your work!
@Rotom0479 better taste than a person who goes out of their way to interact with the product from a creator they know they don't like lmao
@Rotom0479 pretty stupid way of going about it lol
Pardon if this has been pointed out already, but we shouldn:t overlook Michael Chabon's novel The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay or The Escapist graphic novel that emerged from it.
9:15 😭 saying batman and robin give off gay vibes makes me mad uncomfortable, thats a child
It was also the subject of the book Seduction of the Innocent.
@agramuglia yeah, I hate that author so much man, great video though loved it
This comment kinda bothers me? Correct me if I'm wrong but the person didn't talk about anything sexual, and it's not like Robin was a baby, teenager at most, gay kids exist.
@Rotom0479Brother, I knew I was gay when I was 14, a literal child. What's so disgusting about that?
@Trinthegay it was refering to batman and robin sleeping in the same bed, ofcourse gay kids exist but that wasn't what they were referring to, love the pfp btw
I would also recommend a few more titles:
Sainted Love (very erotic but fun gay time traveling)
House of Slaughter Vol.1 and Vol.3
The oddly pedestrian life of Christopher Chaos
Alan Scott Green Lantern
The Summer Hikaru Died (for Manga readers)
But for real, its not an overtly gay book, but i do recommend Alpha Flight as a queer found family book especially after John Byrne’s run on the book. And yes only Northstar is queer, but the queerness is there if you look deeply enough into it especially in the ladder half of the book
OH MY GOD YES i love alpha flight, definitely marvels most underated team, needs more love
@Rotom0479 that’s what I literally said. And sorry for projecting but the themes are there regardless. No offense but have you ever read Alpha Flight before?
@Rotom0479 lots of found family stories are queer by nature
@Rotom0479 yes they are, I don’t need to project to understand that
@Rotom0479 you have a bunch of people who have many different life experiences who have came together to become a family. A lot of queer found families, usually come together because they didn’t have the support from their bio families a lot of the time and found solace in the people they surrounded themselves with. That’s the basics of it. Even though Alpha Flight did start out as a government run team, they all overtime became really close even if members changed out a lot of the time.
Comic books have always been made by and for people who are different, who don't fit the norm and have always been one of the most progressive pieces of any media. Which is why it's baffling to me when a reader sees something like this and says "this different isn't MY different so it sucks!"
Anyway I think Hal Jordan should be bisexual and genderfluid I think he has massive down low closeted ex military energy that secretly crossdresses then cries about it but that’s neither here nor there
ALPHA FLIGHT REFERENCE RAAAAAAAAAAH
1:12:56 Kingdom Hearts jumpscare
Bro, your videos are really great.
Keep the good qork!
You should upload these as podcasts too, nice to have visuals but I think they’d work just as well as audio too. Just a thought!
I feel all genders and relationships should be included. Great video
@Rotom0479Good luck with that, I guess. It's not illegal for people to read.
@Rotom0479 Fair enough.
@Rotom0479Men kissing is too much for you >:3
I’ve read The Sea in You, it’s unfinished, but it’s great! As far as webcomic printings go I love Friends with Benefits by Nezkovsou as gender-fluid and ace rep.
@Rotom0479 People who are otherwise under-represented tend to care.
Generic comment about nightwing's butt.
@Rotom0479Generic comment disagreeing.
@Rotom0479 I like men.
@Rotom0479Men >:3
I've been rewatching some older Simpsons. And in seasons 4 and 5...there are some pretty heavy implications that Bart and Grandpa are not....exactly the most heteronormative boys.
To play devil's advocate, there is a natural fear in animals of outsider groups of the same/similar species due to competition and other factors. Set aside politics and metaphysical arguments, it is a fact that humans are animals. Racial groups are not entirely social constructs but also biological manifestations of a single species undergoing changes in different population to best fit their environments. Just like the differences in lion subspecies, tiger subspecies, zebra subspecies etc. There is a biological instinct to certain levels of xenophobia. For example, Dr. Stephen Hawking made it clear that if extraterrestrial intelligence exists we would not want to make contact with them as they will likely do to us what the Anglos did to the Indigenous Americans. The modern fear of AI follows this same trend. So it is not unfounded for any group no matter now much institutional power they have to become defensive when there are rapid social changes and demographic shifts.
Some who may identify as left leaning/progressive might find it ridiculous or even laughable that those of Western European heritage could fear becoming a marginalized group. But imagine for a second being in a mostly racially homogenous community and then have a flood of individuals from a foreign ethnic group take over your home and subjugate you and your family. That happened to many peoples across the globe over the past several centuries. Even some White ethnic groups such as Slavic people have experienced displacement and enslavement. We have driven other human species extinct due to our species's colonial actions, and even placed other species of great apes on the endangered species list because we don't value them as persons. We treat them as property. Every country has institutional pithecophobia which has been used to justify racism and experiment on marginalized groups of humans and other species of great apes; which the latter still to this day not only have no legal protections, but religious and political leaders often deny evolution and thus justifying excluding humans from the great ape category that does manifest not just socially and politically but even within academia.
As someone who is queer in both regards to sexuality and gender identity, I do not make the devil's advocate argument lightly. I am also a supporter of great ape personhood which explains the emphasis on nonhuman great apes. While not an expert, I am knowledgable on these subjects by having a Bachelor's in anthropology. Conservative responses to LGBTQ+ peoples and issues is reactionary to mostly unfounded reasonings. Thus, it is fear for fear's sake. That said, social animals often react negatively to rapid social change. It took Christians nearly a thousand years to eradicate Pagan faiths from continental Europe. It took a few hundred years for Europeans to colonize the globe. No one said undoing hundreds of years of Christian nationalistic indoctrination will be quick and easy.
Given my background, I am just as concerned about my rights as any other LGBTQ+ person. Though it is important to be sympathetic rather than reactionary. Trust me, it is tempting to be reactionary. My personal experiences often make me feel misanthropic because I have experienced prejudice from both cis heteronormative people and queer people. Mostly because of both cis and trans people saying non-binary people don't exist, bisexual erasure from both the straight and gay communities, and monogamy being so heavily ingrained into Western society that both the ruling class and many minority groups view polyamorous people as immoral and a "threat" to society. It is difficult to navigate the complexities of the human ape social fission-fusion constructions, but it is important to stay visible and have self respect while also having sympathy for those you disagree with vigorously.
Idk I think it's pretty fair to not have a lot of sympathy to people who do outright think you shouldn't exist. Respectability politics doesn't get you very far when people in positions of power would unironically prefer to see you dead than hear out arguments. Obviously it comes from a point of fear but that fear can twist even the most mild forms of expression and outreach into completely nebulous attacks on children with no basis in reality. Sure there might be a few more conservative younger people who can be brought over by being compassionate to them, and I do think that is an important thing to try and do, but I also think you must pick your battles and most of the time the people acting this way are far too gone to want to even hear a word from my (a trans woman) mouth.
I think you can make videos that cross the aisle simply by being good enough on their own to pick up steam with younger people in the conservative movement and expose them to ideas they might not have heard otherwise, but making videos and content for that group exclusively can be exhausting and sometimes dangerous.
@@cat_jk00 fair point. Like I said I’m playing devil’s advocate. But still I prefer compassion over anger.
@Rotom0479 what are you getting at?
@Rotom0479Aww, can’t handle seeing gay people kiss? UwU
Iceman's mom: "Have you tried. . . Not being a mutant?" Of course a straight person wouldn't understand this as queer. THEY NEVER HAD THAT CONVERSATION
In studying the moral panic of comics, I came across a quote that Wertham actually claimed that an errant ink stain was actually Wonder Women's bush! 🏳️🌈
Interesting that the very first example provided is mid-thirties Batman and his prepubescent sidekick Robin.
That's because that's what Seduction of the Innocent focused on.
Tim and Conner Kent's relationship always read as more than just bros to me so it didn't surprise me
The last part almost brought me to tears, almost （ಥ_ಥ）
Back in le good ol days comics where about dehumanising your enemy trough racial caricatures to justify war. Truly a gay past time.
This is really well done. Thank you.
I bet there probably was some pre-code stuff that was really gay. Probably also really exploitative because they loved advertising stuff with "BLOOD! GUTS! DAMES!" back then, but still.
@Rotom0479 Oh really? I wasn't aware you were a scholar who had studied all pre-CCA comics in extensive detail, or maybe you're just speaking from confidant ignorance.
@Rotom0479But not any gay shit. Can’t handle men kissing? UwU
Considering how old they would be, I sadly wouldn't find it surprising if a lot of it has been lost due to the age of the papers such comics were drawn/printed on.
Tumblr? Why no respect for Drunk Duck? Webcomics, especially the pre-Webtoons ztuff, had a lot of fun with LGBT topics.
@Rotom0479 Could be worse, could be Reddit, or 4Chan, or Twitter... remind me which of those you escaped from again?
@@leviadragon99 If we learn, we can plug the hole and make every RUclips comment section wholesome again.
That pre-Webtoons stuff was underground comics stuff pal. You'd only hear of such things if you were actively looking for such comics.
@@ExtremeWreck "Pre-Webtooons"? They weren't hard to find and they're still pretty popular.
@@jamaisj Depends on where you lived back in those days buddy. I'm pretty sure in California, New York or Florida it was easy, but here in Tennessee? Not so much.
Wish people talked more about shatterstar and rictor
Okay, let me be civil and I hope anyone who replies will also be as civil and this won't devolve into a fight fest about men in underwear. Okay? Please? Alright.
I always found the Idea of superheros to be a bit queer in itself. The idea of a man dressing up in skin tight spandex and fighting crime is in all that it means, is a little bit homosexual. Now of course I don't think superheros are bad. Far from it. I enjoy and love superheros. They are a symbol of hope and good. I also don't think homosexuals are bad either. They are still human just like me and you. I don't wish to demonzie any one. But that doesn't mean I can't look at costume superheros and think "That's a bit gay." Because it sort of is. If you saw a man at night, wearing underwear on his pants, or not even wearing pants, you would say that as well. In summary, the idea of costumed superheros is a bit gay in itself.
Please for the love of pete don't be a little creature.
Oh and like, DC and Marvel should just make superheros who happen to be homosexual. Not just an old hero now gay (unless it makes sense) or a gay superhero. Okay? Again don't make me lose more faith in humanity.
Those spandex and underpants type of costumes were actually inspired by the circus strongmen attires in the early 20the century. Origin wise there's nothing gay about them, they were actually seen as symbols of strength and masculinity, but they do look funny in normal modern life especially outside of comics (cosplay etc). Hence why more modern superheroes tend to favor armors etc.
Here's something I want to bring up cause I really wanna know where the line is drawn here. Part of the reason why so many are turning on this LGBT push in comics is when they are turning existing characters that have had decades worth of continuity and foundation, and turning them gay or bi or some form of that. This is the example I wanna use, during the Trial of Magneto story, captain America(Steve Rogers) was being written in a way where he had the hots for Northstars husband Kyle? What the heck was that? And then somebody is going to want to use that as a foundation for saying "See see SEE!!!!!!! Steve Rogers is bi, it was written that way in the comics" or go Google some panels up and try to say yeah, Steve's been bi all this time. This honesty just has been feeling like there is a deliberate push to try and make every character in marvel and DC some form of queer. And if your gonna say I'm wrong, you tell me, where is the line drawn. Cause everyone you meet you can find something in their lives to say yeah they queer, even though they are not but the perception is is that yeah, more and more characters are being changed to being given LGBT status. And cap wasnt the only example
Even going to someone like Batman where a year or 2 ago, we had that issue of Batman looking like he had a crush on a boy when he was a teenager. Even going to someone like green lantern where a writer wanted to write him a pan or heck, it was revealed that a certain writer was trying to turn super boy trans?
Love Hercules, and when he was revealed to be bi that made sense for the character. Even someone like Deadpool(whose the only character I love more then captain America) when he was revealed to be pan that made sense. Dude had sex with a literal skeleton and a space hippo(that he needed a crane to lift it off him the following morning) Same with wonder woman who yeah, spent centuries growing up in a island full of women and being taught men were bad so yeah, it made sense if she had a romance with some other woman during all that time. But then when you get to the level of every character has a reason to be queer so they must be queer, that is where a lot of people are revolting on this push in comics
Let me ask you this. Take every single character who has been reconned to be LGBTQA. Compare that to every straight character.
You will quickly see that the sheer difference in number should settle your nerves.
@@agramuglia dude that is not answering the question. Your basically saying every character in comics is up for grabs to be turned/retconned into LGBT since half the overall characters in comics are not LGBT. When does it get to the point where making a character LGBT just cause it makes sense for them as opposed to turning the character LGBT just cause you want to turn them into that regardless of who they are. Are we turning the trinity for both marvel and DC to be LGBT cause half the population of characters are still straight? They tried doing that with Batman and wrote captain America to be that way not to long and your saying that's supposed to be alright?
@@CryptidZeker415 I didn't say half aren't LGBTQA. I am implying that's closer to 95% of them. And that's a generous estimate.
@@agramuglia but that is not answering the question. Is every character up for grabs to be retconned to be LGBT? I listed that example specifically with cap and how out of character that felt where the writer just wanted to write cap being attracted to Kyle cause she thought that would be amusing.
Tomorrow if it is announced every member of marvel and DCs Trinity are announced to be bi, is that ok cause there are other straight characters?
@@CryptidZeker415 yeah, sure. Why not?
Here's a take from pansexual non american left leaning centrist:
People dont know how to or dont want to communicate.
And it works in both ways.
-If you change Wolverine, people will say "thats not my Wolverine"
That part is absolutely true and expecting people to blindly accept any kind of major character change, and yes, sexual identity does matter, is wishful thinking at best and egotistical idiocy at worst.
When any character is depicted in a certain way for decades, in comics, movies, games and all other kinds of media, you really cant change their identity out of the blue and then make a surprise pikachu face when people get mad about it.
Build it up, lay the groundwork, make the consumer say "yeah, that makes sense" When he sees the change.
Also, your answer to the possible backlaah should never be to call everyone around you *bad people*.
Customer is always right, and when you make your customer and your audience mad, that's your mistake.
Reflect on your choices, find what you did wrong, take notes from other people's successes and do better next time.
And also, making an event out of every new character introduction or coming out as queer should also stop or at least slow down, cause when you make an event out of every instance, it quickly become irritating.
It should be a norm that people, in the best way possible, pay no mind to.
same way they pay no mind to a character being straight white dude.
Thats bad communication on one side, heres the other:
Change is inevitable and the world is not the same as it was 10,20,50 years ago.
Expecting everything to be about you, about majority, "normal" People is harmful to everyone.
You get less stories, with less topics to read about and discuss, they dont get any representation they deserve.
people love to point and laugh at New warriors, which is absolutely justified, but then those same people start to think that every piece of Queer media is like that.
A soulless and forced Cringe cashgrag, made by talentless idiots.
"Povestochka" As we say here.
Its easy to find many more examples of that, cause any time Queer media fails, it makes all the headlines, at least in the part of internet i occupy.
But when the reverse happens, and a piece of media specifically about queer folk, or just one including it, succeeds, media stays, mostly, silent.
Its a deeply harmful and hypocritical approach.
People love to mention stuff like BG3 or FF16, for being the most recent examples of good gay character writing(im mostly a gamer, sorry), which is true and thats the problem.
They get only a passing mention here and there.
Media oblitirates you for failing and barely pats you on the back for succeeding.
And you know whats the funniest part?
Most people, no matter the politics, just want good stories. (Cause most people arent extremist culture warriors).
Prime example of it(pun not intended) is The Boys from Amazon.
Its one of the most left leaning pieces of media I've seen, and thanks to good writing and amazing acting, it's praised by everyone i know.
Same goes for more recent X-men 97.
I wholeheartedly believe that Good writing transcendes any politics and that any author should focus on it first and on the message second, if they want to deliver said message to the masses, regardless of their worldview.
"But when the reverse happens, and a piece of media specifically about queer folk, or just one including it, succeeds, media stays, mostly, silent."
Exactly. Very few of actual good quality queer media gets noticed by the media around here at least. Heck, in general there is a lot of really good pieces of media out there that are barely noticed at all, stuff that just showed up one time & has barely been talked about in years. Some of it goes further & becomes lost media that can go 99.9% undocumented online, with only the tiniest references to such material existing. Could you imagine some really good 80s underground gay comic book series you've read back in those days, but when you look it up there's practically nothing about it anywhere? No rips of the comics, no information about it, nothing. It's just... gone & perhaps you don't even have it anymore, which makes its disappearance all the more unfortunate for you.
I like the recommendations at the end. Still, I don't know if the solution here is just to consume better and hope the corporations take the right message. Surely there's other things we can do. Like talking to our neighbours about these kinds of things. Or getting into politics or activism.
Oh, obviously! But this video is more focused on the arts. Those are better for improving the fabric of society
@@agramuglia I suppose that's fair, though I don't think the two are so separate. You can talk to your neighbours about gay comics. That could insolate them against misinformation. You can do activism to oppose and undo book bans. You can do politics to protect diverse art and artists. We can improve the fabric of society by helping the arts.
Heck, now I wanna talk to my neighbours about gay comics.
@Rotom0479 "Ruined" how? If you're gonna be a bigot, say it from your chest man.
@Rotom0479 Yeah that's the same pack of nonsense you've told elsewhere dude, pack it in or learn a new tune.
@Rotom0479 what the hey though, I'll tackle all of these bad arguments one by one.
First, the notion that they have pursued politics over quality is based on... nothing at all. Good and bad stories have always existed in comics, the quality has remained more or less the same, if you perceive it as worse, you might be viewing it through a particular lens (hint, your bigotry)
"derailing" fan-favourite characters, in your opinion. Just yours, and a handful of other terminally online weirdos admittedly, but a lot of these changes you rail against have either been popularly regarded by most readers, or have had most readers not care one way or another.
Lastly, I will call a very small portion of the customers (people like you) bigots, because you are, if you cared about bad storytelling, you'd be holding the writers behind One More Day to account, and yet you're only protesting stuff that has minorities existing, because it offends your delicate bigot feefees.
Anyone have cool queer comics to recommend? Anything with drug use within the queer community? I'm not really into superhero stuff but maybe I'm just not into the Marvel, etc universe
Watch the end of the video
This video is really good.
Great video!!
this is very insightful and informative
Haven’t watched the video yet but I love your videos and I’m sure this one will be good too
@Rotom0479 I mean I thought it was good after I watched it too, I didn't comment this as some serious endorsement of Anthony's beliefs because I don't feel like seriously debating this subject, I just wanted to comment because when I saw this in my feed no one else had commented and I wanted to support a creator I liked, that's all
@Rotom0479 I don't wear glasses
the internet is a vast place and you can find anything to fit a narrative... as a comic book reader 34 years now the business doesn't make sense. try taking a page out of manga and make it a genre so the business doesn't suffer because if not the industry will be dead in the next 10 years
What's the music that starts at 36:50?
based vid
@Rotom0479 lmao idc bigot stay mad
@Rotom0479 yes, please say sowwy !! fuck no LOL
@Rotom0479 nah. Ima do my own thing.
@Rotom0479 okay
@Rotom0479nice wompussy
Not gonna lie, the reason I got into the Transformers comics is because I found out that Ratchet basically gets a flowery swordsmech for a husband and I _had_ to see that happen.
Y'all, I am not shitting you when I say every transformer in the 2005-19 IDW continuity is gay-
55:00 save
Did you get a new camera? Something seems considerably better than before.
With how successful this channel has been, i figured it was time to invest in a DSLR.
@@agramuglia It paid off! Looks way better, and it stopped the weird out of sync between your mouth and your words. Congrats on the success. It's great to see another person entering the media literacy and "anti-anti-woke" sphere.
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I haven't watched it yet since its not even been the videos runtime yet but imagine if he got that recently dead comic guy in this video.
read saga
Gay is a word. This is a fact. Fish swim also. There are no implications. I just don't know what write.
@Rotom0479 Fish swim, water flows, you are a degenerate.
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Great Video Sorta of
They got Catwoman 😮😮😮, bro she's my favorite I can't believe they did her so dirty
Man the comics can't even decide if she's a white woman or black. The inconsistency and lack of real continuity is why I went to manga. I like one author with a specific vision. I've read Spider-Man for about 20 years and while I grew up, he did not. Hell Batman has been in his late 30s or early 40s since like the 1950s.
@@richborn6700 Selina Kyle in the main universes is depicted as white. Anything else is usually a different reality.
Catwoman is a mantle worn by multiple characters among them an asian woman.
Bad take