This video deals with a lot of controversial subjects. There's a lot to discuss, but let's please conduct ourselves well. Please avoid any homophobic or biphobic slurs in the comments.
Your entire point rests on "Spider-Man can be anyone", but you're not acknowledging all of the straight people who see themselves in a character who is already straight. Just as Miles is an answer to what a black/latino Spider-Man might be like and Cindy Moon is an answer to the question of a female or asian spider-person, they could introduce someone else as being bi. However, your goal here seems to be to make Peter gay or bi and so why is that the goal? If not, and you just mean a general Spider-person should be..then (as you said), we already have that. Representation is great, but there shouldnt be a Miles, a cindy, etc. The idea behind "Spider-Man could be anyone" is founded in the fact that he's not. It COULD have been anyone, but it happened to be Peter. Miles and all of these other spider-people make the heroics, the powers, the costume all seem like a dime a dozen. There's already more than a handful of Wolverines, Captain Americas, Ironmen, etc. Comics trivialize their characters with these "What if"scenarios. If Marvel sees this, then (respectfully), I vote "No".
@@Aeis_Arcadewhy are you only able to connect to a Character based on their Sexuality? If Spider-Man is Gay, he’s still the same guy. Unless the only reason you related to Spider-man was because he was straight(which I highly doubt) him being gay shouldn’t affect how you relate to this character. Queer people exist outside of their sexualities in the same way you exist outside of yours
@@calicomarker yeah, u obviously do not understand sexuality and sex and the attraction markers that are relevant. For a heterosexual man, a relation towards women is their biggest inspiration to why they do what they do. There is always the possibility of creating a family together thru sex, an element of that dynamic that is absent from same-sex relationships. Therefore Ure literally erasing parts of his motivations for who he is by making him able to be attracted to someone without the potential of creating a family while being intimate. I will never be able to relate to a person that has sex and goes into an intimate relationships with another person without the potential of creating a life.
@@allancastellon9248 If Paul was a hot woman, there is a 50/50 chance Paul would be less hated. I say 50% because Riasing of the Shield Hero proves an entire fan base will hate a hot character.
It really is discouraging to see how bisexuality is treated by media and people. It's like we constantly have to justify our existence and it's kind of exhausting
i think the key lesson to take here is to stop justifying it and just live your life without focusing on trying to explain yourself to people who don't need things explained to them. i'm assuming here, but you're an adult, and usually, so are the people questioning. "there's a comet coming! i have to go get my bf! should we ev--", "oh but you had a gf last time", "yes, and now i have a bf. so about what i was saying about that giant comet about to crash into our planet... should we evacuate or not?" ps, still no idea what the difference between bi and pan is.
@@eksynn ....I was going to explain but you are right, one means you like both genders and the other means you don't care about gender, is it that basically the same?
To be fair, Venom (the symbiote) literally has a child with Eddie. If there's one core spider-man villain that is anti homophobic, it's Venom lol. Edit: I may be thinking about the wrong f-word... Then again, there was that gay joke in one of the films lol.
I fell like there's something to the conversation that queer women are recieved more acceptably than queer men, because wlw eroticism is hotter to straight male egos.
Maybe also because it doesn't contain the "rejection of masculinity" that mlm couples are perceived to be guilty of. Part of the reason(definitely not the only one, and I think there are way bigger reasons) for why there's a hyperfocus on trans women over trans men. It's like if someone else engages in certain behavior that is "unmasculine" it's as if it's perceived tainting the image of masculinity itself, and the image and aesthetics of masculinity is all that matters to these types of men. Because traditional masculinity _is_ fake. It's as fake as the cowboys smoking marlboros that sold the image of rugged masculine individualism in order to sell the products attached to that image. Queer women in contrast are at worst fetishized and at best ignored/erased because what happens to marginalized women is generally to just be considered "lost causes". Unless that specific type of queerness in a woman is trans. Regardless of how objectifiable that trans woman is(though that does sometimes help her case), she's now guilty of some kind of transgression for having "abandoned" masculinity; _their_ masculinity. It's like it challenges that Masculinity is this god-given, unchanging, superior trait that defines so much about who a person is because it defines so much about who _they_ think they are, and if this isn't bequeathed through the transitive properties of being born with a schmenis and a person can actually just abandon something that fundamental to them and become something else, that shakes them to their very core. It's why I think transphobia is always so... angry. Resentful. Bitter. Reeking of personal insecurity, as if someone else's existence is a personal offense to them, and I think this was true of gay men in gay relationships before it was true of trans women as well.
@@gwen9939 To add to the angle with LGBT afab people, there's the way that traditional femininity is seen as weak or bad, whereas traditionally masculine traits are seen as superior. So a woman (or someone who is perceived as a woman by transphobes) who is engaging in traditionally masculine acts is seen as empowered and independent, which helps them being more well received by more progressive people.
Yeah, networks see wlw relationships as more palatable because sexism. They know women won't complain cause, why would they? They know men won't cause, hot.
I remember seeing that contract between Marvel and Disney where it said that Peter Parker must be heterosexual. But don't forget that he's allowed to sell weed if infected by the venom symbiote. Still holding out hope for that one
It's way more realistic for a bi person to forget they're actually bi than for them to think stuff like "oh, i'm so bi" cause of all the erasure and heteronormativity. The idea of introducing bi character with a phrase like that is hilarious though
Imagine if the Justice League or Avengers have their first official meeting when the team is formed and all the characters introduce themselves with gender identities, sexualities, blood types, and their preference for Windows or Mac PC's (I do not think it's ridiculous to specify one's gender, but it's the info dump nature and the specificity of which traits need to be explicit for these weirdos)
Clearly youve never met a teen going thru the baby queer phase. As a former teenage baby queer myself, i did actually think and say "im so bi/gay" very frequently lol.
@@eddierascalhaskell4954 did you watch the video, she can date him and still be bi. I feel like you didn’t watch the video. You can find out you’re bi and keep dating the person you were already dating, cause that’s what it means to be bi.
"Items with a * are permitted if Spider-Man is wearing the black/symbiote suit." Spider-Man can't be gay. But if he's wearing black, he can totally have his own meth empire. Also, "queer people can be queer without realizing it". As an ace person, totally. I spend years being absolutely confused about what I was.
I didn't even know the word "asexual" until I was in my 20s. I wish I knew about it sooner. It would have made expressing how I felt about things so much easier when I was a teenager.
@@IceFireofVoidYou didn’t even hear the word “asexual” in science class? You know, living beings that can reproduce without a mate? I mean, it has a different meaning, but it’s still the same word.
@g.masterlordoftheg-force4770 I have but I meant in reference to human sexuality. It is very different from animals who reproduce without the need for another contributor of genetic material.
Maybe because asexuality has nothing to do with homosexuality and the umbrella term queer is a worthless political term that has little to do with reality
@@XMissGX Do you realise that saying "No." doesn't actually stop anything? What if I respond with "Yes!"? I could defeat your argument simply by saying "Yes." if I wanted to.
As a bisexual guy who's dating a woman, this video gives me so validation. So many times I continue to be told that it doesn't count because I'm dating a girl so this felt good to watch.
Yeah the biphobia within and outside if the lgbtqia community is insane. Saw a content creator I really liked get his hard by Twitter peeps arguing that he can't be bi cuz he in a straight relationship and it was a sad day.
The fact that " not a homosexual" is on the same list as "does not torture" and "does not have sex with anyone below the age of 16" is so messed up to me, as a gay man. Marvel really does believe that Spider-Man being gay is just as damaging to their brand as it would be if he commited terrible crimes.
@@logandelaharpe6362so where are, on the list, the other consistent traits of Peter Parker? Like the fact that he lives with his Aunt May. It's clear that Marvel's selection is not without any bias.
@@luluzin5022 Except living with May is specifically for a young Peter. Would be stupid to have that as a clause cause then he is stuck, as a 50 year old, in his aunts house
The guy who ranted about all the LGBTQ+ content on Disney+ and how it would condition young children to be gay makes me laugh when you stop to consider that for the majority of pre-mid 2010s, Disney mostly put out heteronormative content and yet said heteronormative content never made future homosexual people from existing. Like, speaking as someone who is straight, that is not how the development of sexual identity works. If it did, then there would be next to no LGBTQ+ people today because the long millenia-spanning history of heteronormative media and storytelling would have conditioned everyone to be straight and we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.
@@NowolfThays just filling an already existing niche that no one else was. Marians popular because she's an early "sexy" anthro in a mainstream movie before anthros where really a thing.
I mean, yeah, how do they think LGBTQ+ people were born before the demonization of 'Woke culture', they suddenly appeared out of the pits of Hell ? XD Gay and trans people and in-betweens existed for forever, there was few media at that time lmao. Maybe one day when they're at their lowest, someone they hate will actually save them from theirselves and change their hatred into love, dunno, isn't it the whole point of christianism ? I'm not praying and I understand that better than american conservatives, damn I'm happy not living in the US Stay safe out there and be proud !
I still remember how excited I got when I found out Jon Kent was bisexual… and that Tuesday one of my high school teachers went on a rant about how angry he was over “Superman being gay.” After class I explained that it was actually his son, that it’s Jon who’s bisexual. He said “thank god! I’m glad they didn’t actually ruin Superman.” Somehow that made me feel worse 🫠
Batman definitely kisses men for all I care. You can ship this guy with everyone batlantern, superbat, ghostbat, catbat, brutalia and they'd all work. AUUGGHHHHHH. Ur teacher definitely sucks tho On the note of Jon Kent unfortunately his character has been brushed aside not because he's bi, but his whole character in general has been ruined after the aged up. He doesn't seem to have his own personality anymore and every writer seems to be avoiding him like a plague. Jon Kent as a child and Jon Kent as an teen is like two seperate character it just kinda sucks. Just speaking as a Jon Kent fan AUGGHHHH
Jon coming out was the catalyst for me getting over the internalized homophobia i got from growing up in church in the south, i remember seeing that and thinkning "if Superman can be Bi, why can't I?" ill love Jon for that forever
@@xenomorpher5458 *enters with fake mustache and glasses* hello it’s me the pan expert guy unrelated to that other frog guy, yeah that guy seems pretty pan to me, I would know, I’m an expert
@@jaxe8321 this is the type of question that can start a war my friend. I jest but what I will tell you is that the only answare that makes sense to me is there is none. We just ended up with diferente terms for it due to the nature of how the language developed and now we have two big sections of the community using one or the other to identify and it is kinda shitty to just bar one of them from doing so.
Harley yes, Ivy? Not really she most of the time see with womans. She has flirt with by the Past for crimes manipulation (except maybe for batman) even if she is bi.
@@everleighsage Rachel Summers and Betsy Braddock (Psylocke) are bisexual and currently in a relationship. If I recall correctly, Rachel was dating or either married to Franklin Richards in the timeline she's from and she's dated Nightcrawler. Betsy has dated Cable, Havok, and Angel as far as I recall.
@@everleighsage tim and conner actually aren't together. it's pretty heavily implied that conner is bi, and tim is canonically bi (he's currently dating bernard, an old high school friend!) + some of the writers who worked on the young justice '98 run said tim's bisexuality was openly mentioned, but tim and conner aren't a thing. sorry to burst your bubble :(
Also, speaking of Deadpool, he has two children with Spider-Man, a robot called Master Matrix who refers to them as his dads, and a biological clone child called Itsy Bitsy.
None of them were really his children. The first was a crazy fan of both, the second was a robot that had no sense of right and wrong and was taught that. Plus, Peter never agreed to be called a father."
@@CHARLYE-b4h Okay, that's rude. Also, he did accept Master Matrix by the end of the bits with Master Matrix. It's the other writers not keeping it up in later comic series that makes the problem there.
@@sacrificiallamb4568 I'm sorry, English is not my native language, but to me it seems a bit strange how people in the United States seem to want representation in absolutely everything, even with that comic, because I read it and while Peter accept it, it was always more about being a mentor and friend than a father. Deadpool didn't see it that way because, well, he was crazy.
26:10 Sorry, this was bugging me: If the “ship” has an & instead of a / between two names, then the fic isn’t relating to a romantic relationship between the two characters, but rather an exploration of the two characters interacting together (it can be familial, platonic, whatever as shown by the Jason Todd & Bruce Wayne below it). So, really the most popular “ship” is Clark Kent/Bruce Wayne.
true, but the first ship “/“ pairing when u go down the list is still jason todd and dick grayson. i’m assuming he ignored batman & superman bc they weren’t relevant to the topic of the robins
Concerning bi-erasure, you should have brought up how they say Tim was 'settling' for Stephanie before bernard, and how she was a "reminder of how he avoided examining himself'
That's not bi sexual erasure? He could be dissatisfied with his relationship with Stephanie and want to explore his now awared non straight attraction. That doesn't mean he'll never be attracted to a girl again (let's be real; he will and probably be portrayed as just straight in adaptations more often than not) You're just mad that your ship was broken up
@liamlennon3316 I understand what you mean but this idea that a bi person was settling for their opposite gender partner is often used to erase or undermine a bisexual person's attraction to the opposite gender. There's this idea that they have to over perform their queer attraction or reject their opposite gender attraction to be valid which is where that type of stuff becomes harmful
@@newlydeviant In Tim's case they said Tim was settling in his past relationships (all women) before bernard (a man) and said his relationship with steph was a reminder of how he avoided examining himself on purpose. They are saying he wasn't his real self while with women and was using his long term relationship with a woman to avoid examining himself as if the relationship prevented him from being his true self as a bi person.
@@kareemguimba9714 That's so gross man :(( I'm happy Tim and many other DC/Marvel characters are bi but it seems like writers never handle them well. I hope bisexual writers get to write them more I really only have hope with them
People don’t realize that bisexuality can VERY EASILY go unnoticed in one’s own head. Straight culture loves to normalize “intrusive thoughts” and that idea combined with feelings of attraction to the “proper” gender makes it easy to ignore and not explore any homosexual attraction.
People don’t seem to understand that not everyone is gay or bi not everyone has to be made bi. Peter has been around for what 60. Years so fuck no I don’t care Peter is not bi he’s not gay he’s not any of that he’s a straight male get over it create a new Spider-Man like you did miles
It’s funny how they act like comic book characters don’t change with every person that writes them. Nothing would be lost if one writer has him like both guys and girls. Edit: “He’s always been straight” is not an argument. He’s a fictional character. Instead, explain without sounding homophobic why bi spiderman would be worse than straight spiderman.
@rasputin4775 Ok. How about a more serious one. The integrity of the book and the company would be lost if they allowed writers to drastically change characters on a whim. There would be no point in following any series because there would be nothing to get invested in. Characters can "change" and should change. That's called character growth. However, people generally don't want to see characters' core elements thrown away because some dickhead of a talentless writer wants to pander with frivolous, unwanted vanity changes.
I feel like if some writer had the balls to have Peter Parker date another guy, it wouldn’t last very long. I’ve always been a Parker-Watson endgame kinda person, but I wouldn’t mind there being a continuity where Peter briefly dates a guy. Either he discovers he’s bi, or he comes to realize he isn’t bi. I think it could make an interesting story, though it would be met with a looooooooot of resistance. I know some Spidey fans are tired of the Spider-Verse defining a lot of Spidey media these days, but I do appreciate the concept for allowing creators to explore new ideas for Spider-People, sexuality included. It’s one of the best things about the multiverse as a concept.
@@thegayghost872 Or trans, or bi, or pan, or poly, or ace, or are a cis gal, or maybe you can be trans so long as you've had bottom surgery before college and only got powers after. Also, assuming Spider-Woman (specifically Gwen) isn't from a universe where bottom surgery happens for people under 18, she canonically has a dick so long as she ever went by "Spider-Man" before transitioning.
@@cyl_genderfluid-furry That always seemed disgusting to me, she is a teenager, obviously she is not trans, even more so with her father, it would be irresponsible to let her do that and nothing you say is true, there are 4 to 5 Spider people in Marvel who are bi, pan or whatever, but no. They are not Peter Parker and there is nothing wrong with that
I’m pretty sure spider-man is allowed to be gay. Peter Parker on the other hand is specifically straight. Which I honestly don’t see the problem with tbh
@@cyl_genderfluid-furry Anyone can be Spider-Man but Spider Gwen being so young and people wanting representation in that seems disgusting to me, they do deserve to be represented but from there to that I think there is a very big line.
If they ever make Spider-Man bi they BETTER have a panel of Deadpool seeing his BF and screaming something like “It should have been me not him, it’s not fair”
Sometimes I wish "You're gay, you're just in denial" and "Pick one" would be treated like the hate speech that I think they really are. I apologise if that's not really related to Spider-Man, and also for paraphrasing what I believe is hate speech.
I agree that it’s hurtful when people say those things, but I think hate speech is more than just something that is hurtful. Hate speech would be like if someone suggested all bi people should be k*lled or that they are “sub-human.” That is hate speech. Even when religious people say it’s wrong, I think that should be allowed even though it hurts me as a bi person. Hate speech should be reserved for very serious human rights issues beyond hurting someone’s feelings or making them feel uncomfortable.
Bi men are just treated like gay men and bi women are treated as straight women who would be willing to have a threesome with a girl. It gives straight men an excuse to hate/be repulsed by bi men and also objectify bi women. It's all centered around very weird, old, and outdated ideas of gender and sexuality.
@@spacedaze1860 I respect your opinion, but I simply believe what you are describing is hate crime, because that is advocating for death, or the loss of someone's humanity. This is why I said what I said was only hate speech. I don't know how the law would define the difference, though.
@@ZelnyairI respect your opinion, too, but I do know that hate speech can be a crime outside of the US, and even in the US it can reach that level, as I mentioned. A lot of dissenting opinions can be defined as hate speech, which is why I would be careful to label things as such.
I personally headcanon Ms. Marvel (Kamala Khan) as being either bi or pan since she once said “everyone has a girlfriend except for me” when she learned her best friend Bruno was dating Mike and her older brother Aamir just got engaged to Tyesha.
Kamala's conflicted about a bunch of things, unfortunately she will never be given a 'challenging' storyline because Marvel avoids offending someone. Kamala being bi or pan would put her against her faith directly, since she seems to come from a somewhat conservative islamic family (especially her brother).
@@Naruto85RasenShurike Your parents can love you and want the best for you and can accept your oddities but it doesn't mean they will accept you if you do something that goes "against" their beliefs. My parents ignore my sexuality at all cost. They would never come to my wedding if I had one because I would be marrying my girlfriend and they believe marriage is between a man and a woman. Not two of the same sex. They still love me but they will never accept that one aspect about myself. That was a hard concept I had to learn in teenage years. I wish I had a story that explored the duality of accepting that your parents love you even if they disapprove an aspect of who you are.
As a bi man married to another bi man, the most annoying kind of homophobia I see is the equation of someone being gay/bi with being penis-obsessed. It’s so annoying, and it comes from people who generally don’t come off as overtly homophobic and even try to frame their argument as some kind of intellectual standpoint. Second to that is using gay sex terms as punchlines. Like saying someone sucks cock is an insult still and there doesn’t seem to be any pushback against people who normalize it.
A lot of what I don't like about our communities is so casually rooted that whenever I do push back people act like I'm demonizing them. I keep saying "it's not Normal but Normalized". Like where is the actual vanilla? I get that things take time but if people don't even want to consider what their saying is weird or harmful then I can't see them changing for the better. More blunt examples are slurs. I do not mess with the F slur. I caught the R slur early in my child/teenhood and so rarely use it. The B slur is VERY interesting as I think it's one of the most "it's ok till it's not" type and it's the hardest for me not to say so like with misgendering I correct myself, apologize and move on. The N slur is another one I grew up on that I would never really say online cuz YALL can't see my face. Frame 1 yall do not know I'm black af and I see it as poor etiquette to communicate any kind of way online. You'd hear me use B or N in my videos (like when dumb stuff happens) but even with friends I'm not really using those terms. If I get invaded in Dark Souls sure but talking to people? Nah. People even asking "Why they gotta be gay" is the wrong move. I know it is habit for people to say that but...yall see my username. There's nothing wrong with being gay and while people may say it with well intention the negative insinuation is still there. Stuff like that I call out as I do want to teach people what they are actually saying cuz honestly it can be SO easy to just stop saying dumb stuff.
"How can spiderman be gay if he's never had an inner monolgoue box about it?" Idk as an ace guy i don't have internal monologues in how I very much have 0 attraction to everyone. Also read a book you could describe like that once where everything would stop to have the gay kid stop and masturebate to the setting's superman stand in regularly to... remind the reader he's gay I guess? Being lgbt I think is in our heads a lot less often than a phobic's head
There’s also being completely oblivious. Up until the age of 13 I had had dozens of crushes on boys that I had told people about (mostly fictional, but I’d had some child friendly dating as well). I had ALSO had the same exact feelings about girls, but I didn’t know being gay was even a thing. Somehow it was never even mentioned so I never identified those feelings as the crushes they definitely were. It took same sex marriage being legalized for me to learn that was an option, and then it took another five months of active processing for me to realize I liked girls as well haha.
That’s the thing with figuring out sexuality! So much of it is looking back and recontextualizing these feelings that didn’t used to have something to link them to!
When I was little I thought that because the "only" possible way a romantic relationship can exist is if it's between a man and a woman if I had certain feelings for people of the other gender I liked them romantically, while if I had those same exact feelings for a person of the same sex I just REAAALLY wanted to be their friend 😂
I knew same sex relationships were a possibility but I thought I'd already figured it out because I had crushes on the opposite gender as early as when I was 5. I utterly panicked when I realised I'm bi. The experience I see rarely mentioned is how back then I wanted to be a boy. I didn't realise then but by my logic it would have allowed me to openly like girls. I assumed that I can't like girls since I already am one and again, I didn't know about bisexuality. It makes me angry - I can't even laugh about it - that there are still people that believe denying this part of sex education is the right thing to do. We got that and were did it leave us?
@@ellanaa9464 ooh yeah same for me. I would inexplicably imagine myself as the husband when I imagined getting married and I didn’t know why. I thought it was a sexism thing at first but it turns out it’s just bc I wanted a wife haha
@@thecolorjunedon’t start with gender stuff, like hehe haha but also damn it kinda isn’t funny how long I suffered just cause nobody wanted to tell me trans people exist.
When bringing up the Tim/Ariana scene you're leaving out the context. Ariana felt presurred to sleep with Tim cuz she was almost RAPED and he made the right call here in trying to talk her instead of jumping her bones. Ariana felt bad when Tim turned her down cuz it brought up those feelings again and she didn't know how to handle them. Also using him saying he's not ready as proof kind of veers into some toxic teenage boy mindset of "oh a teenage boy doesn't want to jump at sex, must be gay". Tim also could tell there was something up with Ariana as well.....ignoring the context feels gross.
Not to mention that the page of Tim hugging Connor was the first time that Tim had seen Connor since Connor came back from the dead. Connor died during Infinite Crisis, Bart Allen was murdered by the Rogues shortly after that, Bruce was killed by Darkseid, and then when Dick became Batman, he replaced Tim as Robin with a bratty kid who had tried to murder Tim on multiple occasions. To say nothing of his real father being murdered by Captain Boomerang a few years earlier. In a short amount of time, Tim lost two fathers, his best friends, and the identity that he chose for himself. The "Red Robin" persona was representative of his self-destructive spiral. Painting the scene of Tim hugging Connor as homoerotic instead of as Tim stepping away from a proverbial ledge is toxic masculinity. Men can't be vulnerable unless it's in a romantic context, right?
@@DrLipkinI wouldn't call it toxic masculinity because there's nothing wrong with it being read as a deeper connection of a hug if someone chooses to see it that way. It doesn't mean straight men can't be vulenrable with other men if you interpet their relationship in a different way. But that context is also pretty important for someone who had experienced a tone of loss in a short amount of time.
I think 97% of this video is fantastic, but I have to raise one point around Tim and Ariana, becaus even if we ignore all other context around that scene, Tim telling his girlfriend "I'm not ready" is one of the most important moments to me. I really appreciate that you talked about that moment as one that can resonate with queer readers feeling pressured to have sex with someone of a gender identity that they aren't attracted to. I also think it's important to acknowledge that there is a really common and problematic stereotype of "boy isn't instantly onboard with jumping girl's bones? Boy must be gay" (also recognizing that this stereotype contributes to the on/off binary of gay or straight without recognition of bi/ace/other sexualities). I had a pretty strong emotional reaction to only verbally connecting that moment to experiences of sexual orientation rather than sexuality as a whole, because it's one where I think that feeling connected to that moment is less about sexual orientation and more about attitude towards sex. Tim's not ready to have sex with Ariana and tells her so. 1) I love and always have to highlight the communication here and importance of consent from both parties. 2) Does Tim's sexual orientation play a role in telling Ariana this? It could, and that's one valid way of reading/connecting with the scene. But watching this part of the video felt to me like "no one is not ready for sex unless if they're repressed," when Tim Drake was always one of my favorites because he demonstrated that he was going through life feeling the same as me (or at least as I try to be). This is true of a lot of his attitudes and beliefs, but the relevant one here is knowing and respecting that you personally aren't ready for sex, without thinking less of people who are, and still having your relationships be treated as valid. -Then the New 52 happened and Tim slept with 3 of his female teammates in a single comic issue and yes I miss Stephanie teasing Tim about being the Boy Virgin because he had a momentary panic about her being pregnant after they started dating.- But anyways, outside of that critique, fantastic video as always. You brought me in with your Nightcrawler video, and you've quickly risen to becoming my favorite video essayist. Keep rocking on, dude.
Another thing about the Ariana scene is that the context was Ariana felt presurred to sleep with Tim cuz she was almost RAPED and he made the right call here in trying to talk her instead of jumping her bones. Ariana felt bad when Tim turned her down cuz it brought up those feelings again and she didn't know how to handle them. I do agree using him saying he's not ready as proof kind of veers into some toxic teenage boy mindset of "oh a teenage boy doesn't want to jump at sex, must be gay". Tim also could tell there was something up with Ariana as well hence him saying "we're not ready" and got to the gist of it instead of jumping her bones. What did Tim is what we should encourage in young men, talking to their partners about sex and communicating instead of jumping their bones and communicating to really see if both are ready and if not, it's ok and there's no need to call the attraction in question. A romance just isn't based on sex and that's an attitude we shouldn't reinforce and the whole 'he didn't jump her bones, so he must gay' veers into it.
Yeah I’m with you on this one! His reading is valid, but I feel the stronger reading was validating that everyone has their own pace with sex and emphasizing that mutual consent it’s important. Honestly that speaks more to me.
Talking about _symbiotic shipping,_ am I the only person who likes the idea of MJ/Venom? Not MJ with Eddie or Flash or any of Venom's _hosts,_ but MJ with the symbiote itself.
@bfnmo7750 I mean, historically that's a huge thing. Hijra, vakasalewalewa, two-spirit, wakashu... a kind of third "in-between"/"non-commital" gender has existed in tons of cultures across the world. It's just most were for those born male. So now that we have more equality and binary obligations havw faded away, it makes sense that we'd be getting more identities since there's more freedom to discover them.
This makes me think back to Ultimate Spiderman. In the ultimate universe Spiderwoman's a genderbent clone of Spiderman so she shares not only his memories and personality, but also his love for Mary Jane and Kitty Pryde. So what's interesting about this is...in one of the later comics she winds up making out with Johnny Storm. When Peter finds out about this he just completely freaks out, like his thought bubbles were just *filled* with his internal screaming. Reading that as a kid I didn't know how else to interpret it other than him being a closeted bisexual who was just suddenly forced to confront his feelings for Johnny for the first time.
@@DammitVictor-8H No, it doesn’t make sense. The Spider-Woman from that universe had an identity crisis arc because she literally had the memories of a man. She mentions waking up in the morning and forgetting that she doesn't have a penis. Johnny Storm literally kisses her, but in the end, she doesn't reciprocate and looks for women. Ultimate Peter Parker was never bi.
Dude your content fucking rocks. As a bi guy struggling with Christian faith your nightcrawler and magneto videos hit hard and now you’re dropping a video on bi erasure AND Spider-Man? Yea dawg I’m subbing 🙏🏾
As a fellow Bi fellow The Bible passage that condemns homosexuality only applies if you are a top. If you’re the one getting fucked in the butt that is not as a man lye with a women thus you are fine.
If there had been a lot more bi representation out there when I was a teen, I wouldn't have had such a problem to figure out that I was, too. For a while, I was convinced that I had to be either straight or gay, because that was the only alternatives, right? Wrong. But that was some truly angsty time. Now it's many years later and you know what? I'm bi, and am comfortable in my sexuality.
I think there’s a version of Dick Grayson that is bisexual. Specifically in Gotham knights. He did an interview where its’s said: “The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, it seems. Dick Grayson, much like the recently departed Bruce Wayne, is an irresponsible flirt. The tabloids are flush with mentions of his exploits and gorgeous company that he keeps. I asked Dick Grayson if he had a specific type, and he leaned close then, his voice lowered to an intimate purr, his gaze for me and no one else. ‘People are gorgeous. All of them. Why restrict myself to an archetype when this world is full of beauty? Gorgeous, gorgeous people everywhere. Including the ranks of gothams elites.” And I think he has a bi-sexual mug.
I'm honestly perfectly okay with the base iteration of spiderman staying straight, I'm just upset by the sheer volume of people who act like it's a personal attack on them if he's anything other than what they consider normal. Like it's some horrible atrocity if suddenly he's like "nah guys are pretty hot too", despite it not changing anything about what's happened to his characterization. He'd still have been into Mj, or Black Cat, or Silk, or whoever else, but also "yeah that guy's pretty attractive" and somehow it's just not the same spiderman to them
I don't mind a gay or bi spider man, but with how we have explored main 616 spidey in all facets throwing it on him doesn't feel like representation but changing a character just to change them Now a multiverse spider man being gay or bi is fine Its why people have had issues with other characters, they took very established characters and added new sexuality not because it makes sense for the character but because they want that character to be that way, especially when it messes with relationships a character has had for decades
Ngl i have a few problems with your statements, 1: No one said it had to be 616 2: People having problems with characters because they were already established is a half truth, yes some of the characters were already very established, but at least half of the people hated gay/bi characters hated them because they were gay/bi
The kitty pride coming out as bisexual is so real though, think about , you're a bisexual woman who was about to marry a guy and had several homoeromantic relationships with her girl friends so she needs to coming out every time she goes out on a date ... As bisexual thats so real lol Also , another incredible bisexual character who actually never came out, but this case the marvel editorial didn't allowed, its, surprisingly, GAMBIT. I think the writer Asmus in his 2012 solo talked about how he was supposed to have a more explicit coming out bisexuality but the editorial didn't allow it..... Which is so crazy to me bc if there's a man I know is bisexual is my guy Remy Lebeau......
@@leonis5664 it was Chris Claremont’s idea for Gambit to Bisexual right from the beginning, but openly queer characters were prohibited by the comics code authority at the time. I’m surprised that they never wrote a story where Remy came out, especially during those long periods in the books where he and Rogue were broken up/ on different teams or just doing their own separate things.
@@Dhampir101980 oh yeah i heard about that! Very similar with Kitty Pryde also. Oh and I looked it up and the writer James Asmus for his 2012 comic said in an interview he intended to have a scene where Remy seduced a man in one of his missions but the editor stepped up and said no luck lol, also i do remember Marjorie Lou (another writer) implying Remy's bisexuality in some reddit QnA or something.... And yeah i think he never came out officially but i know Remy has been written to subtle flirty with men (ex. Bishop, Northstar , Doctor Voodoo( like not as overtly as he does with women 🤔) so it's like, an open secret situation almost lol. I dont expect him to come out because he's married to Rogue now so to Marvel that means he's straight and thats it ( even though he was seeing hanging out with Black Cat, another bisexual thief in the Pride issue Lmao, so it's like, here some crumbs for us bisexuals but never something concrete is coming i fear. But we in the know, know 💜💙
I don't consume a lotta of X-men (Sort of, I consumed X-men since I was a kid but it's a weird hard to explain situation ok) but from what I've of Gambit, Yeah, that tracks Although, I wonder how it would be like if the "hes an imaginary friend" plot point stuck around. Would he help that one kid navegate his sexuality later on or...?
Just Some Guy says in the full video that he's a bi man himself. So his opinions on bi representation are probably more nuanced than simple hate for the sake of hatred.
@@matrixiekitty2127 reminds me of that one clip where pat is making fun of bigoted politicians who pretend to care when dealing with groups they hate, and woolie just starts begging him to call him the n-word because the dancing around it was infinitely more annoying like if you so blatantly hate gay people just say the slur bro, people already wanna deck you
My grandmother came out to me as bisexual when she was like 70 years old. She was married to my grandfather still and it changed nothing, but she just casually said, "I never even thought of going with other girls as an option. I didn't even know that was something you could do growing up. I probably would've done it if I knew back then."
With bisexual characters in fiction (probably all LGBTQIA characters), I think there needs to be a fair acknowledgement of the challenges in being critiqued. If they came out later in life, they've been "woke-ified" or are "pandering". If they enter a monogamous relationship, they "stopped being bi". If they predominantly show attraction to one gender over the other, they're "not performing their bisexuality enough". If they show too much attraction all the time, they're "promoting harmful stereotypes and/or are being fetishized". I think that, rather than pushing every LGBTQIA character to perform to some ideal of perfect representation, we just need... more representation. We can have the monogamous bisexual and the flirty bisexual and the 90/10 bisexual. There's enough room in fiction for everyone to feel seen.
Bi representation is so tricky because we're such a large group with so many varying experiences, even if you're not using it as an umbrella term for all orientations based around attraction to multiple genders and just counting the people who explicitly identify as bisexual. We're a mixed gender group and our dating pool is a mixed gender group, so it's hard to appeal to that desire to have every example of bi rep show off every aspect of bisexuality at once. Theoretically we would need a lot of bi rep if we were to try and represent all the different ways to be bisexual (not unlike non-binary representation, where there's an infinitely huge swath of genders under that label... which also feeds into that whole "our dating pool is mixed gender" thing.)
To me at least what's more important than personal representation which I consider mostly a feel-good moment for me personally, is the normalization that showing diverse sexualities and gender identities to audiences who're usually not exposed to those ideas as being normal. Like, even if there's a trans character that is not at all my vibe or represents my experiences I think it's really important that _a_ experience is being portrayed so that it's no longer such a stretch for others to imagine what kind of person I am and what my experiences have been. I do think intersectional identities are important for showing intersectional issues that are often unique to those experiences(Like Sun-Spider), so rather what I consider less important when it comes to representation and how it aids in normalizing queer identities is like, the different ways you can be a trans woman, the different ways you can be bisexual, the different ways in which you can be non-binary, etc.. Those are still good things to show and show awareness of, but maybe you show the depth of experience of a character who is agender and asexual and they have minor characters around them that are less explored but represent different queer spectrum characteristics. I think depth in a character is way more important for establishing familiarity with marginalized experiences that having a long checklist identities and experiences to check off but doesn't get explored enough.
For queer spider-people there was MJ Spider-Woman from the original Exiles comics. She was a lesbian, I believe. She was in a relationship with Mariko. They were so cute together. If I remember correctly they killed her off during the Spider-Verse stuff. 🤦🏽♀️ And Mariko died way before that in the Exiles comics. Of course the lesbians both died.
That's been my main problem with "oh you can have a queer SIDE CHARACTER" but you and I both know those characters are either offed or ignored or not allowed romance or pushed into romance with another obscure character all while being BACKUP to the main guy and we don't even get normal talks highschool and even adult life is full of dating/relationship type talk but when it comes to queer characters they put a piece of tape over their mouths and go "shhhh"
To clarify- Dick Grayson & Jason Todd is the most PLATONIC pairing as indicated by the '&' while Clark Kent/Bruce Wayne is the most ROMANTIC pairing as seen by the '/' .
As a bisexual woman, the first American comicbook I ever bought was Deadpool. How anyone can read that character as straight is beyond me... especially after seeing the Deadpool & Wolverine movie!! So many of these characters are queer-coded, it blows my mind. 😂 Excellent video! I really enjoyed it -- lots of well made points.
@@teddybear766 Yup! Because he's "never been with a guy" full stop. Technically he only ever dates women in the books/movie. So all the flirting is seen as non-serious jokes.
Yeah for me I see Gwen/Ghost Spider as bisexual. Sure she had a relationship with Miles but in Marvel Rising cartoon. She would ignore others on the team except the leader Daisy Johnson & showed the bisexual fingers. Besides that in the comics I’m not into MJ but have seen panels of them together as like a parallel to her & Spiderman
I think the hardest part of the video to listen to are at the people crying about making the characters queer. I do love this though! It really resonated with me, and I wish more people would listen to the bi experience. 10/10 video. Def sharing it around. Probably my favorite video of yours so far. Then again maybe I am Bi-ased... 😂❤
Oh yeah, the bitching felt like nails on a chalk board but I stuck through it to gain perspective. Even if it meant my eyes rolling back so far I saw my brain😅
i think listening and seeing stan lee (who, yeah, i realise, i idolised maybe abit) making fun of and rediculing only the IDEA that spiderman could be anything other than straight and having the WHOLE room laugh about it was the most painful part
There's a great documentary that I've seen too much called "Casting By", about Casting Directors and their struggle for recognition. A large focus of the documentary is on an incredibly prolific director named Marion Dougherty. Richard Donner recounts the casting for Lethal Weapon, particularly for Murtaugh, where Marion suggested Danny Glover. Donner's reaction was, "But he's black", to which Marion just stared and him and said, "And?". He had no excuse. There's no reason Murtaugh COULDN'T be black, and Donner later said that hiring Danny Glover elevated the film and it was the best decision they could've made. So put simply: Why CAN'T Peter Parker kiss a dude?
Simply put: because we already explored his sexuality, and found out he's straight. Honestly, it's just that, a part of the character identity that is so well defined that to change it you'd need a new character - which is why there's the spider-verse, so you could explore those ideas without compromising a character. Same thing goes for queer characters, its part of their identity, so don't change it. Also, the social norms of the time influenced it quite a lot, at least for the "legally not allowed to"
I'm really taken by your definitions of bisexuality and pansexuality!! They're so succinct and respectful without putting them against each other, relying on transphobia or bioessentialism. I think that you describe them both really beautifully and kindly. Thanks for sharing your thoughts n words, my guy.
I would like to point out that said definitions are far from universally accepted among the bisexual community. There are plenty of people who self-identify as bisexual who aren't attracted to genders, just to people. It's engineering a division that just doesn't actually exist.
Honestly I think superhero stories in general work well as trans allegories or part of trans narratives since you have the aspect of the double life. One half being the person you were born as with the name normally associated with you, and the other half. An identity that was created by the hero, including an appearance they made for themselves (the costume) and a name they chose. I think it could be cool to have a closeted trans hero who presents as their biological sex in their civilian identity but pass as their actual gender when they put on the superhero mask.
Marvel isn’t even brave enough to let spider-man be able to state he’s Jewish cause they’re afraid of “alienating” him. No way they’d let Peter kiss a dude. The response would be homophobic AF, & not just from str8 shitheels. I’ve had more than enough negative experience with queer spider-man fans. The internalized homophobia from those ppl is worst I’ve ever seen online. Peter should be able to kiss Harry Osborn, Johnny storm, Marc Spector, Miguel or Deadpool but we will never get it cause the company, the fans, & even members of lgbtqia community would rather fall on a sword than see that happen.
he’s jewish in the spider-verse movies. he doesn’t SAY “erm, i’m jewish” but he is. had a jewish wedding. he also just uses obviously jewish phrasing throughout the movies. those movies pay a great deal of attention to culture and identity, even if they aren’t holding your hand through it.
@@MRSHREKJR nobody said he “needs” to be, it’s just fun. bisexuality also just literally opens up twice as many doors for romantic storytelling. it’s just a fair direction to take a character.
Hot take, I guess: Morph (or any other shapeshifter, for that matter) being non binary is boring. It's as boring as making your gay character a flamboyant fashion diva or your lesbian character an overly masculine dominant boss lady. I'll repeat, it's not bad, it's not offensive, it doesn't make a character automatically badly written, you can make anything work, With enough talent and dedication, but it's the most stereotypical, lazy and boring way of writing those particular queer characters.
All I'm going to say is baby steps. After the Hayes Code, restoring non-hetero sexualities has been a slow fight. Eventually, your representation will come, but the audience is getting eased into it through the easy route.
I somehow feel it's more okay to be boring in the "enby shapeshifter" way than the "flamboyant gay" way. The latter feels reductive and stereotypical, since there's a much more tenuous connection between being gay and being flamboyant than there is being a shapeshifter and enby. Being able to put yourself in the shoes of multiple genders with unthinkable ease has got to open your eyes to some things. I do agree that it's boring though. It could be very interesting to see how a strong binary shapeshifter could feel having to occupy a different gender for extended periods of time.
THANK YOU! I wasn’t offended by Morph being non-binary, it just felt obvious and boring. Even their design as a blank face person makes the character more boring.
The twinkification of DC In all seriousness, I have never seen a 14 year old that looks like that. They look more like CW actors that are very obviously in their 20’s but the showrunners pretend are what 16 year olds look like. It would’ve been much cooler though to see Tim be interested in a very masculine presenting man as opposed to some twink, it would’ve shown a more nuanced perspective of his bisexuality as having an attraction towards both highfemme cis-gendered women and burly buff guys. Would also retroactively explain his childhood adoration of Superman lol.
@@handsoaphandsoap actually so true. Plus Jon Kent's boyfriend is already in that more femme/twink space. It's not necessarily bad to repeat that, but it would've been cool to see tim take another direction
Bernie has been drawn in a million different styles. Exhausted gym bro, aerodynamic collection of polygons, used car salesman in training, etc. It feels like the only thing DC artists can agree on about Bernard is that he's blonde. Like, just wait for Red Robin to get another solo run, Bernard will probably look different again lol.
I wish you brought up Ultimate Jessica Drew/Spider Woman/Scarlet Spider/Black Widow as a queer spider-person. She's a clone of Peter and is confirmed to be a lesbian (since she litterly says that she has an attraction to "Red heads and Jewish girls" that Peter has), and she has heavy trans-coded implications with her struggle with her identity as a female clone of a male person who sees and identifies herself as female but has all her male counterparts memories.
Let's be honest, she was never bi. Johnny literally saw her, but she never reciprocated, and then they mentioned she was dating a woman. So, she's not bi; she's a lesbian. But in her case, it's more complicated because she has a body with female hormones, not male.
26:07 actually on Ao3 a ship with a "&" between the names is usually just a platonic/familiar ship, so all those "Dick Grayson & Jason Todd" fics probably explore their relationship as brothers. (Romantic would be "dick grayson/jadon todd")
Being a bi nerd is the worst of both worlds with one silver lining: I feel the constant need to perform acts of nerdiness to prove my feelings are valid but then they are dismissed anyway because I'm queer. *sigh* At least everyone is hot.
Tim Drake being into Conner is something I've believed for years, but I never once got the sense it was reciprocated. Bernard was a strange choice but I don't think Conner would have made sense.
Conner constantly calls Tim "his" Robin. And he was far more hurt when Tim kept secrets from him than any of his girlfriends. Plus, he is a clone who was raised without any preprogrammed prejudice except for maybe "Superman must date people whose name and surname start with the same letter"
@@andyenglish4303 Sorry, sorry, I didn't think you implied Kon was prejudiced, just wanted to point out that there's absolutely no reason why Kon couldn't also be Bi, considering both his biology and how he was educated :) I think Kon was far more into Tim at first than Tim into Kon, but hey, that's the beauty of shipping. Different flavors for different people!
@@andyenglish4303 In TT03 Tim and Kon's relationship was based off that of Geoff Johns and his brother who wrote scenes such as Tim changing his costume to honor Kon and trying to clone him
@@luxshinethey feel way more like actual close friends. That’s part of why I love their dynamic. They came off like Bruce and Clark IF Bruce and Clark were allowed to be more open with their friendship and didn’t have the pressure of being the world’s finest. They felt like found brothers. Conner calling Tim his Robin doesn’t feel romantic. It’s literal, especially after Damian takes up the role, and with how close they are. I’m over Tim being bi, despite not liking Bernard: but shipping Tim and Conner will never not feel like tumblr shipping.
Honestly, I would have liked if Jonathan kent would have stayed a kid and realized he was bisexual via his relationship with Damien. They had good chemistry, and they wouldn’t even have to make damien bi. It could have just been a crush, one they would talk about, and Damien would be harsh, insensitive, but supportive. Could even have a line like, "Out of all of the qualities I hate about you, your sexuality isn’t one of them, kent."
I believe every single fictional character is canonically bisexual UNTIL they tell me directly their actual sexual preferences. Unless Batman looks directly through the hypothetical camera and says “By the way I’m straight and only like women” I will just assume he’d be ok with guys too.
Great video! One tiny thing... you did dabble in a bit of asexual erasure at 44:30 when you said "they're just attracted to people like everyone else." Obviously this video isn't about asexuality at all, I get that, but I think it's also important to not erase other people when we're talking about why being erased ourselves feels bad.
if making a straight guy just a little bit more gay is such a problem to you, then you aren't a real fan tbqh peter can still be bi and have mj as endgame idk why that's such a hard thing to understand, this isn't astrophysics we talking bout
Because for some people, that isn't enough. Because I seriously suspect people will never want MJ to be an endgame because it somehow invalidates that. People are pretty damn irrational and don't view characters as people, just husks to project themselves onto.
@@MRSHREKJRPeter didn't "need" to have organic webbing, or be represented via totem in the Web of Life and Destiny. That doesn't mean those stories didn't have value
@@MRSHREKJR Peter also didn't need to be married, own a company, have his body swapped with Otto, don the black suit, rip the face off kraven's wife, become possessed by the sins of Norman Osborne, none of these were critically mandatory for his character or his arc, so why is being Bi suddenly the sticking point?
bi-erasure is so pervasive. my best friend is bi and she's been in a relationship with her husband since high school. she realized a couple of years into their marriage that she was bi and that's ok. they are still happily married and they are monogamous. you don't have to prove that you're bi by dating other people and you can certainly be bi and be in a heterosexual relationship. it's not that hard to grasp. i don't understand how people can be so inflexible in their thinking.
I think Peter could discover his bisexuality later in life as it’s not a change but an addition to his lore. It doesn’t erase any of his attraction to his love interests and just opens up more attraction possibilities. I think the key feature is to build upon hum in a way that be understandable.
@@mattd5240Peter's been through more retcons and reboots than nearly any other A-list character. Any one of those iterations could make room for a little spidersexual exploration.
@@sketch-eee4165 (your not using that right) AND FUCK NO peter fucking parkers been straight since before i and you were born he'll be straight before my kid is born he'll be straight before they ever fix his marriage
I was 63 before I realized I was bisexual. I don’t think I was suppressing anything, because I was always open to the idea, but it was definitely an evolution. Anyone can learn of new dimensions to their sexuality over time.
I have a strange relationship with bi characters in fiction. There's something about them that makes it feel like, at a glance, the easier orientation to include because they can be hidden away by just having them in a relationship with the opposite gender, which I know is incredibly unfair for me to think because there are bi and pan folk who only ever have a relationship with one gender, or even never getting into a relationship with anyone. I think this stems from not having any explicitly visible representation in media growing up. Even now its still pretty rare. I want more representation as a whole, for every orientation, but I will likely always gravitate to characters in same sex relationships just because you're getting to see it. This would make it a lot harder to include bi and pan character though, as like with Kitty Pryde, its only shown once in a blue moon then folk are likely to forget and see the character as either gay or straight.
Sorry for talking about cartoons when this is a comics space, but I think The Owl House and its handling of bisexual characters is really interesting. Hunter, a boy, and Willow, a girl, have crushes on eachother and get together by the end of the series. They show no onscreen interest in anyone else, and there's no discussion or "evidence" for either of their sexualities otherwise. But it was "confirmed" by the series creator that Hunter is bisexual and Willow is pansexual. That's something that could be really frustrating, could even seem like pandering or queer baiting, but honestly it doesn't bother me one bit! The reason for that is that the show's protagonist, Luz, is a bisexual girl with a lesbian girlfriend. She's openly bi, showing interest in both genders, and even coming out to her mom with a powerpoint that says "Hi, I'm bi!" Basically, what I'm trying to get at is that there's room for all kinds of bisexual representation in media. There's no inherent problem with bisexual characters who only date people of a different gender, since sometimes that's what happens in reality. The problem is with creators who treat bisexuality as "straight-lite" exclusively. When we see more bi characters onscreen who date same gender charcters regularly or dicuss same gender attraction in a normalized manner, that's when I'll stop complaining about all the ones who don't.
Peter Parker has never been a static character, he's evolved a lot in the past 60 years, the world has changed so much that the writers had to make countless tweaks to his character to keep the way he fits into the world despite the changing circumstances.
People being so defensive of Peter changing over time in such relatively innocuous ways (he is not any different or less as a person just for realizing he may have further preferences beyond what he originally thought) and considering it "political" is so sad. Sadder still for the ones that have already crossed that threshold like Tim. So regressive. Reminds me of the push-back, mostly past but still partially present, of rejecting Miles as a "true" Spider-Man simply for the colour of his skin. Just Some Guy and the like are so insecure and shallow. I liked when Deadpool has a spell that brought his one true love to him, and it seriously summoned Spider-Man. One cannot joke with a magic book, despite what the "haters" will say, and I am glad Deadpool is able to express himself therein.
Man deadpool is mostly a comedy character and peter sees him as a friend deadpool sees spiderman as his soulmate but spiderman not peter's soulmate is MJ but he's not interested in him more than that and deadpool says he wants to be around of spidey because he wants to be a good person to raise his daughter so that she is not a murderer like him .And not all characters have to be BI they made tim drake bisexual but there is no need to do the same with peter
Comedy does not preclude serious romance, ignoring the fact Deadpool straddles the line regardless. I never said Spider-Man reciprocates, I just find it heartwarming Deadpool has Spider-Man so close to his heart. What is "needed" is subjective.
13:31 as a Spider-Man fan, who has never read the comics the fact that they ripped off their shirts to seduce the Symbiot caught me off guard so much that I had to walk away cause like wait what that was the only way
19:09 i think black cat, and those like her (ivy, selina harley) when straight male writers are involved that a lot of the girls’ bisexuality feels performative, fetishisation, and truly a base-level understanding of what wlw relationships are, and that’s if they even pair them with other women. a lot of straight men’s only experience with sapphic relationship are the hub, and other media depictions in comics, film and tv shows. so sensual aspects of their sexuality is jacked up, but the minutiae of everyday relationships feels so hollow. a lot of them use it as an excuse to draw two hot women kissing, for one of them to eventually run back to an ex-male fling (which don’t even get me started on the layers of biphobia in that consistent trope). which in turn is why we see very little representation for lesbians. everyone’s got their own headcanons but honestly, to me tim’s bisexuality feels like a waste (but still the right call), it don’t think it was handled well because the editorial seemed to be scared of tim’s coming out journey, instead just turning to bernard and being like (oh, tim’s into guys) like yeah, we know, have you read young justice? but how tim realised was kinda ignored. to a extent, even with his writing with kon, it felt like dc is one again too scared to change the status quo with dick and honestly, jason. (dick’s two biggest queer ship to be fair, isn’t really something i think dc should ever purse anytime soon, considering jason is is brother and wally… is so utterly in love with linda, it drove him insane). to this day i’m still surprised they’ve not went fully in on ace lesbian cass + fellow bi disaster steph. also, “fish with his chips” is such a weird way of describing women. i remember jon’s sexuality being discussed on british morning news (basically GMA but it’s GMB) and gay, conservative (“actor” more reality tv show star) came on whinging about “superman being gay” and i remember being so pissed off that not only a old white gay would be so reductive (oh my sweet optimistic child brain) but also, they were discussing this at length without mention that jon was in fact bisexual and not clark.
25:25 While talking about Tim Drake and Bernard, made me remember the injustice they did Jon Kent as well. Fans had been routing for him and Damian since the Supersons comics and the when DC finally made him canonly Bi, they shipped him off with some dude named Jay? Like who the hell are you?? Just give us our JonDami content! It's not gonna change the image of either Damian or Jon, grow a spine, DC
Ngl I see where you’re coming from but I really don’t see Damian as bi/gay just because of how much he is like his father. They are committed to their mission first always even if they do have love interests they never seem fully committed. Maybe Damian could end up with Jon but I feel like that would seem like they forced them into it because of their chemistry instead of because the characters actually feel that way. Not hating I just seriously can’t imagine damian with anyone esp not Jon even with their chemistry. In my opinion I think he’s Asexual, I see damian more committed to the “mission” than Batman sometimes, though I’d love to have my mind changed
@@danielboss5968 fair point, I also head canon him as somewhere on the ace spectrum, but maybe it's just my personal preference that Jon and Damian would be cute together. Damian and Bruce's commitment to the mission of Batman and Robin don't negate the possibility of their sexualities, in fact their jobs as vigilantes have nothing to do with their orientations, it's more so to do with their own personal traumas and attachments/commitment issues, but that's a whole new topic
i feel like i have to point out that the ‘dick grayson & jason todd’ tag is strictly platonic-it’s not an actual relationship tag, but otherwise, this was an amazing video essay! i knew there was a weird dynamic with superhero and bisexuality, but this was very insightful :D
Say what you will about The Amazing Spider-Man movies, but Andrew Garfield seemed genuinely invested in the character and had what I consider a much better insight into how to characterize Peter than even the writers (see: his thoughts on how Peter would view Tony Stark, his thoughts on Peter's relationship to Judaism, his thoughts on what Spider-Man represents). Also, the "thought bubble" argument from the person disparaging your opinion is so funny. Do...do they not understand how comics work? That there are literally infinite possibilities in an infinite number of universes that can be explored? Like imagine if in every comic iteration that Peter had to exposit what has happened in every single universe before the new story could be told because otherwise the fabric of space and time would fall apart. I kind of regret not mentioning on your community post that Spideypool has been one of my most constant ships throughout my life. Quick shoutout to that time in the Monsters Unleashed tie-in when Spider-Man was summoned to Deadpool's location by magic because he's Deadpool's "heartmate." It is incredibly frustrating that Deadpool's attraction and/or flirtations with men are presented as comedically predatory. Everyone wants to highlight his attraction to men but never as a positive quality, only as a chance to make other men uncomfortable. Closing thoughts, 19 Women & Death should be a metal band to be completely real with you.
that legal document pisses me off so badly. "we have decided that there are circumstances where spiderman can be bad even though he is a good character through and through. but homosexuality? oh god no. not ever. no exceptions." that is some bullshit.
@@zlvno Spiderman is a make-believe character with many different versions of peter parker. The problem is that they are willing to bend their idea of who peter parker is from everything to science nerd, to hot guy, to skate boarder, his race etc. But they draw the line at being bi or gay. Thats fucked up. Whether he kisses boys is the thing that makes them uncomfortable but they make exceptions for character traits that are not kid-friendly speaks volumes to the level of homophobia in hollywood.
@@zolmation it’s not homophobia just not every character needs to be gay spiderman was never gay from the start pretty sure those are Stan lee’s rules since he made the character Stan lee wouldn’t be proud seeing Peter kissing dudes
@@zolmation I get y’all want more representation but tryna ruin already established characters with your gayness is kinda lame vouch for original gay characters instead of tryna make a already existing straight character gay if u want that so bad write a fan fic it’s just a make believe character as u said so why u so pressed over this
It's just that Spider-Man, specifically Peter Parker, is a character that is straight. Any other Spider-Man can be whatever. But thats who Peter is, and we shouldnt keep trying to change character's sexualities.
That whole "if you want spiderman to be black/a woman/gay/whatever make another character" attitude was always just a half-assed shutdown because of the often-unspoken part: "so I can ignore them". Like, writers WILL do exactly that-introduce a new character with a legacy hero's title-and then they'll get shat on or ignored by fans and writers. Even heroes that are _explicitly_ a legacy that gets passed along catch flack if they deviate from the archetype, like the Flash/Kid Flash. Miles and Gwen as Spiderpeople are some of the few examples of a deviation that gained wider popularity, and even then, Gwen was already an established character before she donned the mask. Too many times it becomes clear that they don't care about "preserving the character", they just don't like the idea of centering someone that they can't """relate""" to.
@@paleospino4956 why not? It happens all the time and we get retcons left and right but when it changes a characters sexuality it's wrong? Was killing Jason Todd a bad idea because it made a significant change to a popular (well I guess he wasn't that popular, they did vote for him to die) character? What about turning him into red hood?
@@paleospino4956I mean what kind of change is significant? If characters never changed they’d be the same as their first appearance now. The ultimate universe is actually nothing like the other ones. The public absolutely can accept large changes especially in the case of “it’s a different canon”. If we can have one universe where a character who is good is made evil, without the fans complaining about changing an important character, how is making them bi a bigger change? People would get more upset about Peter being bi than about any of the other major changes that have been made. If he’s not poor, if he’s alone vs in a relationship, how much he is involved with the avengers, how old he is, what level of school, people may like or dislike all these changes, but none are so major they killed the character’s popularity. Why is sexuality so different? To me it seems pretty much inconsequential. The answer obviously being that people see those with different sexualities as fundamentally different somehow. So I don’t think going off “how big of a change” it actually is matters
It's just an excuse for bigots to get their way in a way that can be presented as reasonable or nuanced. I think it's very similar to arguments that are along the lines of "Don't make gay characters so in your face/don't make being gay their whole personality!" Because to a LOT of people, a person being gay at all is "making being gay their whole personality", the correct amount of "subtlety" is "not gay at all".
It doesn't make sense to call out a company for not making a change when the majority of people want to release to someone who is like them, it's also easier to not doing anything.
@paleospino4956 I'm sorry I don't know :( I don't read the comics I've just seen it talked about a lot! His boyfriend I believe is an indigenous man who takes up the Captain America mantle or something? Idk how explicit the relationship is but I've never heard people dismiss it as noncanon !
I was a repressed bisexual until about 3 years ago. Looking back now, I definitely always was into women despite the fact I to this day have only been with men since I didn't realise until I was already dating my current boyfriend. I realised that he way I felt when I had a crush on a guy or thought a guy was hot was exactly the same as with girls. The only difference was that in my head, I was like "well that's obviously different because that's a woman. I just ADMIRE her. I want to BE her, not be WITH her" but then I realised that a lot of the feelings I had towards girls were not just a universal experience for all girls. Straight girls didn't have those same thoughts and that was really insane to me. Like, the attraction was always there, it's not that I was actively trying to push down my feelings, not conciously anyway but with my religious upbringing, I had just never thought of liking girls as an option. I think what did it was seeing memes and stuff from other bisexual women about being bisexual and I was like "haha yeah that's so me, this is relatable... wait a goddamn minute"
The whole 'spider-man can't be gay' thing is exactly why people love the spider verse so much. because anyone can actually be behind the mask. not just straight, white cis men.
"The most popular Batman ship on AO3 is Dick Grayson with Jason Todd" Nope, look at the "/" instead of the "&". According to your screenshot, it's Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne.
Great work. I know you draw on it a little but I was wondering in this context what being more visibly bi would entail in this context? While you bring up social issues impacting the community, I know from similar discussions that stopping with simply visibility of social problems can result in presentations that are flat and often marginalising. Off the top of my head I can imagine this as being more open to a character moving back and forth while dating? Including more options in flashbacks of the characters past boyfriends, girlfriends and partners? Engaging more with attraction in narration as something other than a joke both in story and in fandom? Engaging more with the theoretical side through allowing standards of masculinities and femininities that are attractive to be more fluid and highlighting how they can be closer together (writing a character who specifically into assigned 'masculine' traits rather than men for example on both sides of the gender dipole)? I suspect the answer is 'all of the above' but I would be interested in anyone's ideas about how biness becomes visible distinctively in ficiton, given the earlier discussion about the way it can be flattened into a false binary of gay or straight.
Not enough bi characters talk about other people they think is hot with their partner. In fact, not enough straight characters do that either. Let characters have casual conversations with their romantic partner about how they just passed by a smoking hot dude and wanted them to know how hot he was!
@@handsoaphandsoap You’d have to convince people in real life that openly talking about how hot other people are in front of your partner isn’t cheating before we get to that.
@@frankieloinandgroin In no universe is that cheating. If you have a partner that you can't have a frank and honest conversation with about physical attraction then you are likely in a toxic relationship.
@@handsoaphandsoap not many people do this true. Some people don't want to hear it either so. Some people just don't find other hot while they are ina relationship and others just find someone attractive and move on. Kinda weird convo that could only work if both people are bi tho no?
Peter should be allowed to date/have romances/flirt with Harry, Flash, Eddie Brock, just like he already does with Mary Jane, Gwen, and Felicia Hardy. Imagine the possibilities for new storylines, dramas, and adventures overall
Iv always liked the idea of Peter flirting with flash SPECIFICALLY because flash can't think of insults when he's flustred For exampel Flash: oi parker Peter: hey hotstuff, you been working out more then normal? Flash:* red* i- you- wha? Nevermind!! Peter: hah. Harry: why do you pretend to flirt with him? Peter: pretend?
This video deals with a lot of controversial subjects. There's a lot to discuss, but let's please conduct ourselves well. Please avoid any homophobic or biphobic slurs in the comments.
Your entire point rests on "Spider-Man can be anyone", but you're not acknowledging all of the straight people who see themselves in a character who is already straight. Just as Miles is an answer to what a black/latino Spider-Man might be like and Cindy Moon is an answer to the question of a female or asian spider-person, they could introduce someone else as being bi. However, your goal here seems to be to make Peter gay or bi and so why is that the goal?
If not, and you just mean a general Spider-person should be..then (as you said), we already have that. Representation is great, but there shouldnt be a Miles, a cindy, etc. The idea behind "Spider-Man could be anyone" is founded in the fact that he's not. It COULD have been anyone, but it happened to be Peter. Miles and all of these other spider-people make the heroics, the powers, the costume all seem like a dime a dozen. There's already more than a handful of Wolverines, Captain Americas, Ironmen, etc. Comics trivialize their characters with these "What if"scenarios. If Marvel sees this, then (respectfully), I vote "No".
@@Aeis_Arcade i feel like you missed the actual point of this video
@@Aeis_Arcadewhy are you only able to connect to a Character based on their Sexuality? If Spider-Man is Gay, he’s still the same guy. Unless the only reason you related to Spider-man was because he was straight(which I highly doubt) him being gay shouldn’t affect how you relate to this character. Queer people exist outside of their sexualities in the same way you exist outside of yours
@@Aeis_Arcade Straight people famously having very little straight icons to connect to
@@calicomarker yeah, u obviously do not understand sexuality and sex and the attraction markers that are relevant. For a heterosexual man, a relation towards women is their biggest inspiration to why they do what they do. There is always the possibility of creating a family together thru sex, an element of that dynamic that is absent from same-sex relationships. Therefore Ure literally erasing parts of his motivations for who he is by making him able to be attracted to someone without the potential of creating a family while being intimate. I will never be able to relate to a person that has sex and goes into an intimate relationships with another person without the potential of creating a life.
Let's be honest, even if Spider-Man has a boyfriend, it will end horrifically like every other love interest.
diversity win!
Imagine the gender bent version of the whole Paul situation 💀
@@allancastellon9248 If Paul was a hot woman, there is a 50/50 chance Paul would be less hated. I say 50% because Riasing of the Shield Hero proves an entire fan base will hate a hot character.
@@allancastellon9248 Peter stealing Paul from MJ would be the funniest thing imaginable and would go so hard
He should dump mj for Paul💀
the best part about the possibility of Spider-Man being bi is the opportunity for “swings both ways” jokes
I had to stop myself from laughing cuz my family is asleep but this was HILARIOUS. You win the internet for the day as far as I’m concerned
No, stfu
This topic just went from “I wouldn’t mind,” to “I need this!”
.....Oh no... This needs to happen 3 weeks ago! 🤣🤣🤣
SONYYYY MAKE SPIDERMAN BI FOR THE JOKES AND MY LIFE IS YOURS!!!
It really is discouraging to see how bisexuality is treated by media and people. It's like we constantly have to justify our existence and it's kind of exhausting
I feel ya, I’m bi and just watching this video made me feel drained!
Same… Just watching this makes me feel like I’m back in middle school. It’s always stunning to see how immature some adults can be.
i think the key lesson to take here is to stop justifying it and just live your life without focusing on trying to explain yourself to people who don't need things explained to them. i'm assuming here, but you're an adult, and usually, so are the people questioning.
"there's a comet coming! i have to go get my bf! should we ev--", "oh but you had a gf last time", "yes, and now i have a bf. so about what i was saying about that giant comet about to crash into our planet... should we evacuate or not?"
ps, still no idea what the difference between bi and pan is.
@@eksynn ....I was going to explain but you are right, one means you like both genders and the other means you don't care about gender, is it that basically the same?
Agreed
Anyone else think it's funny that the black costume lets him break the serious moral rules, but not say the f-word?
Symbiotes have standards!
which f-word? 🤨
@@AdallynD yeah which one 🤨
To be fair, Venom (the symbiote) literally has a child with Eddie. If there's one core spider-man villain that is anti homophobic, it's Venom lol.
Edit: I may be thinking about the wrong f-word... Then again, there was that gay joke in one of the films lol.
Coke: ✅️
Torture: ✅️
Genocide: ✅️
Fu-❌️❌️❌️❌️❌️❌️❌️❌️
I fell like there's something to the conversation that queer women are recieved more acceptably than queer men, because wlw eroticism is hotter to straight male egos.
Maybe also because it doesn't contain the "rejection of masculinity" that mlm couples are perceived to be guilty of. Part of the reason(definitely not the only one, and I think there are way bigger reasons) for why there's a hyperfocus on trans women over trans men. It's like if someone else engages in certain behavior that is "unmasculine" it's as if it's perceived tainting the image of masculinity itself, and the image and aesthetics of masculinity is all that matters to these types of men. Because traditional masculinity _is_ fake. It's as fake as the cowboys smoking marlboros that sold the image of rugged masculine individualism in order to sell the products attached to that image.
Queer women in contrast are at worst fetishized and at best ignored/erased because what happens to marginalized women is generally to just be considered "lost causes". Unless that specific type of queerness in a woman is trans. Regardless of how objectifiable that trans woman is(though that does sometimes help her case), she's now guilty of some kind of transgression for having "abandoned" masculinity; _their_ masculinity. It's like it challenges that Masculinity is this god-given, unchanging, superior trait that defines so much about who a person is because it defines so much about who _they_ think they are, and if this isn't bequeathed through the transitive properties of being born with a schmenis and a person can actually just abandon something that fundamental to them and become something else, that shakes them to their very core.
It's why I think transphobia is always so... angry. Resentful. Bitter. Reeking of personal insecurity, as if someone else's existence is a personal offense to them, and I think this was true of gay men in gay relationships before it was true of trans women as well.
@@gwen9939I want to print this reposons on my brain in case I encounter a bigot online
@@gwen9939 I can change that ;)
@@gwen9939 To add to the angle with LGBT afab people, there's the way that traditional femininity is seen as weak or bad, whereas traditionally masculine traits are seen as superior. So a woman (or someone who is perceived as a woman by transphobes) who is engaging in traditionally masculine acts is seen as empowered and independent, which helps them being more well received by more progressive people.
Yeah, networks see wlw relationships as more palatable because sexism. They know women won't complain cause, why would they? They know men won't cause, hot.
I remember seeing that contract between Marvel and Disney where it said that Peter Parker must be heterosexual. But don't forget that he's allowed to sell weed if infected by the venom symbiote. Still holding out hope for that one
We now know what a rated R symbiote spider-man arc could look like... he ends up selling weed
@@tomgames8616 But he still can't say a certain four letter word beginning with F...
That’s an original marvel thing, given to Sony. Disney wasn’t involved yet
I’m just imagining Tom Hollands goofy ass selling weed to kids in the park dressed like bully maguire 🤣
Peter in the symbiote: “MILES YOU STUPID…..”
It's way more realistic for a bi person to forget they're actually bi than for them to think stuff like "oh, i'm so bi" cause of all the erasure and heteronormativity. The idea of introducing bi character with a phrase like that is hilarious though
Imagine if the Justice League or Avengers have their first official meeting when the team is formed and all the characters introduce themselves with gender identities, sexualities, blood types, and their preference for Windows or Mac PC's (I do not think it's ridiculous to specify one's gender, but it's the info dump nature and the specificity of which traits need to be explicit for these weirdos)
@@Alkeeros In fairness, if anyone tells me I have to use Mac OS I am fighting them in public. LOL
@@hawktalon7890if anyone tells me I have to use mac or windows they're catching hands
@@qorso Perfectly understandable.
Clearly youve never met a teen going thru the baby queer phase. As a former teenage baby queer myself, i did actually think and say "im so bi/gay" very frequently lol.
People forgetting Kitty Pryde is bisexual is sooo hilarious because she's literally named PRYDE
Slay :)
But she and Colossus were a thing for so long...😐
@@eddierascalhaskell4954 did you watch the video, she can date him and still be bi. I feel like you didn’t watch the video. You can find out you’re bi and keep dating the person you were already dating, cause that’s what it means to be bi.
😐
@@eddierascalhaskell4954 what does this mean
"Items with a * are permitted if Spider-Man is wearing the black/symbiote suit."
Spider-Man can't be gay. But if he's wearing black, he can totally have his own meth empire.
Also, "queer people can be queer without realizing it".
As an ace person, totally. I spend years being absolutely confused about what I was.
I thought I was a late bloomer straight until my mid-20s. Some people don't come out until they're elderly.
I didn't even know the word "asexual" until I was in my 20s. I wish I knew about it sooner. It would have made expressing how I felt about things so much easier when I was a teenager.
@@IceFireofVoidYou didn’t even hear the word “asexual” in science class?
You know, living beings that can reproduce without a mate?
I mean, it has a different meaning, but it’s still the same word.
@g.masterlordoftheg-force4770 I have but I meant in reference to human sexuality. It is very different from animals who reproduce without the need for another contributor of genetic material.
Maybe because asexuality has nothing to do with homosexuality and the umbrella term queer is a worthless political term that has little to do with reality
Let him date Deadpool. He'd be happy with a man who can't die
No.
@@XMissGX yes
Hell yeah
@@XMissGX Do you realise that saying "No." doesn't actually stop anything? What if I respond with "Yes!"? I could defeat your argument simply by saying "Yes." if I wanted to.
Deadpool could date Wolverine 😏
As a bisexual guy who's dating a woman, this video gives me so validation. So many times I continue to be told that it doesn't count because I'm dating a girl so this felt good to watch.
Yeah the biphobia within and outside if the lgbtqia community is insane. Saw a content creator I really liked get his hard by Twitter peeps arguing that he can't be bi cuz he in a straight relationship and it was a sad day.
hetero🤢
@@StarMechV I'm a bi in a same sex relationship and you're just as valid as I am 🫡 keep on the good fight
Been there. Bi solidarity ❤
We all just wanna love who we wanna love and be validated
The fact that " not a homosexual" is on the same list as "does not torture" and "does not have sex with anyone below the age of 16" is so messed up to me, as a gay man. Marvel really does believe that Spider-Man being gay is just as damaging to their brand as it would be if he commited terrible crimes.
It’s things core to Spider-Man’s / Peter Parker’s identity so it makes sense
@@logandelaharpe6362so where are, on the list, the other consistent traits of Peter Parker? Like the fact that he lives with his Aunt May. It's clear that Marvel's selection is not without any bias.
When you consider the time period that contract was made in, it’s really par for the course
All three options would damage the character, obviously.
No one said those would damage him at the same level, actually.
@@luluzin5022 Except living with May is specifically for a young Peter. Would be stupid to have that as a clause cause then he is stuck, as a 50 year old, in his aunts house
The guy who ranted about all the LGBTQ+ content on Disney+ and how it would condition young children to be gay makes me laugh when you stop to consider that for the majority of pre-mid 2010s, Disney mostly put out heteronormative content and yet said heteronormative content never made future homosexual people from existing. Like, speaking as someone who is straight, that is not how the development of sexual identity works. If it did, then there would be next to no LGBTQ+ people today because the long millenia-spanning history of heteronormative media and storytelling would have conditioned everyone to be straight and we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.
although they did do a lot of anthropomorphics, and, well, ask any furry about maid marian...
@@NowolfThays just filling an already existing niche that no one else was. Marians popular because she's an early "sexy" anthro in a mainstream movie before anthros where really a thing.
I mean, yeah, how do they think LGBTQ+ people were born before the demonization of 'Woke culture', they suddenly appeared out of the pits of Hell ? XD
Gay and trans people and in-betweens existed for forever, there was few media at that time lmao. Maybe one day when they're at their lowest, someone they hate will actually save them from theirselves and change their hatred into love, dunno, isn't it the whole point of christianism ? I'm not praying and I understand that better than american conservatives, damn I'm happy not living in the US
Stay safe out there and be proud !
As someone born in 2002, I obviously grew up watching the heteronormative content that was on all TV channels.
Yeah I'm gay as fuck
Fr, like bro you don’t turn gay💀 you were and always was gay like tf?!
I still remember how excited I got when I found out Jon Kent was bisexual… and that Tuesday one of my high school teachers went on a rant about how angry he was over “Superman being gay.” After class I explained that it was actually his son, that it’s Jon who’s bisexual. He said “thank god! I’m glad they didn’t actually ruin Superman.” Somehow that made me feel worse 🫠
noo ☹️ man teacher can be the worse and what type of teacher goes on a rant like that but I'm sorry that happened to you
Batman definitely kisses men for all I care. You can ship this guy with everyone batlantern, superbat, ghostbat, catbat, brutalia and they'd all work. AUUGGHHHHHH.
Ur teacher definitely sucks tho
On the note of Jon Kent unfortunately his character has been brushed aside not because he's bi, but his whole character in general has been ruined after the aged up. He doesn't seem to have his own personality anymore and every writer seems to be avoiding him like a plague. Jon Kent as a child and Jon Kent as an teen is like two seperate character it just kinda sucks. Just speaking as a Jon Kent fan AUGGHHHH
W teacher
Jon coming out was the catalyst for me getting over the internalized homophobia i got from growing up in church in the south, i remember seeing that and thinkning "if Superman can be Bi, why can't I?" ill love Jon for that forever
@@GmrGod10000 Of course someone as pathetic as him would consider him a w teahcer.
Andrew Garfield straight up just wanted to kiss Michael B Jordan😭😭
he's just like me fr
and I respect that. 👏🏾
I just realised. He at least kissed Ryan Reynolds. Spiderman literally kissed Deadpool and I only realised it now 😭
same i also want to kiss Michael B Jordan
Guys I forgot to kiss men for 2 years because I have a girlfriend guess I’m not pan anymore 😔
very bad of you
kiss a man
*NOW*
That's not how it works? I think.. can we get a expert over here?.. I'm like 99.9% sure that's not how it works..THIS FROG NEEDS VALIDATION PEOPLE!
@@xenomorpher5458 *enters with fake mustache and glasses*
hello it’s me the pan expert guy unrelated to that other frog guy, yeah that guy seems pretty pan to me, I would know, I’m an expert
What the difference between bi and pan? I'm genuinely confused
@@jaxe8321 this is the type of question that can start a war my friend. I jest but what I will tell you is that the only answare that makes sense to me is there is none.
We just ended up with diferente terms for it due to the nature of how the language developed and now we have two big sections of the community using one or the other to identify and it is kinda shitty to just bar one of them from doing so.
I don’t want Spider-Man to be gay cause I don’t want Spider-Man’s boyfriend to die horrifically
deadpool would fix that, just sayin
@@ItsAcedTeaWADE BELONGS TO LOGAN
@@guywholikesanimations1018hE HAS TWO HANDS
@@guywholikesanimations1018 They can be a thruple.
@@guywholikesanimations1018HELP😭
Harley Quinn and poison ivy are the only prominent bisexual characters in comics that gets equal representation for relationships with men and women
Poison Ivy is a lesbian
Harley yes, Ivy? Not really she most of the time see with womans. She has flirt with by the Past for crimes manipulation (except maybe for batman) even if she is bi.
sadly it's DC comics and not marvel :(((
Also isn't there tim and connor in DC comics?
@@everleighsage Rachel Summers and Betsy Braddock (Psylocke) are bisexual and currently in a relationship. If I recall correctly, Rachel was dating or either married to Franklin Richards in the timeline she's from and she's dated Nightcrawler. Betsy has dated Cable, Havok, and Angel as far as I recall.
@@everleighsage tim and conner actually aren't together. it's pretty heavily implied that conner is bi, and tim is canonically bi (he's currently dating bernard, an old high school friend!) + some of the writers who worked on the young justice '98 run said tim's bisexuality was openly mentioned, but tim and conner aren't a thing. sorry to burst your bubble :(
Also, speaking of Deadpool, he has two children with Spider-Man, a robot called Master Matrix who refers to them as his dads, and a biological clone child called Itsy Bitsy.
Finally, someone brings that up. Also, you beat me to it, oh now.
technically itsy bitsy isnt really their biological clone child, because she was a girl injected with their DNA.
None of them were really his children. The first was a crazy fan of both, the second was a robot that had no sense of right and wrong and was taught that. Plus, Peter never agreed to be called a father."
@@CHARLYE-b4h Okay, that's rude. Also, he did accept Master Matrix by the end of the bits with Master Matrix. It's the other writers not keeping it up in later comic series that makes the problem there.
@@sacrificiallamb4568 I'm sorry, English is not my native language, but to me it seems a bit strange how people in the United States seem to want representation in absolutely everything, even with that comic, because I read it and while Peter accept it, it was always more about being a mentor and friend than a father. Deadpool didn't see it that way because, well, he was crazy.
26:10 Sorry, this was bugging me: If the “ship” has an & instead of a / between two names, then the fic isn’t relating to a romantic relationship between the two characters, but rather an exploration of the two characters interacting together (it can be familial, platonic, whatever as shown by the Jason Todd & Bruce Wayne below it). So, really the most popular “ship” is Clark Kent/Bruce Wayne.
thank god someone said it
I was thinking that when they they started talking about the list haha
I was like hmmmmmm, thats not the proper reading of the notation... ;>>
I opened the comments specifically to say this LMFAO
true, but the first ship “/“ pairing when u go down the list is still jason todd and dick grayson. i’m assuming he ignored batman & superman bc they weren’t relevant to the topic of the robins
Concerning bi-erasure, you should have brought up how they say Tim was 'settling' for Stephanie before bernard, and how she was a "reminder of how he avoided examining himself'
Thank you
That's not bi sexual erasure?
He could be dissatisfied with his relationship with Stephanie and want to explore his now awared non straight attraction. That doesn't mean he'll never be attracted to a girl again (let's be real; he will and probably be portrayed as just straight in adaptations more often than not)
You're just mad that your ship was broken up
@liamlennon3316 I understand what you mean but this idea that a bi person was settling for their opposite gender partner is often used to erase or undermine a bisexual person's attraction to the opposite gender. There's this idea that they have to over perform their queer attraction or reject their opposite gender attraction to be valid which is where that type of stuff becomes harmful
@@newlydeviant In Tim's case they said Tim was settling in his past relationships (all women) before bernard (a man) and said his relationship with steph was a reminder of how he avoided examining himself on purpose. They are saying he wasn't his real self while with women and was using his long term relationship with a woman to avoid examining himself as if the relationship prevented him from being his true self as a bi person.
@@kareemguimba9714 That's so gross man :(( I'm happy Tim and many other DC/Marvel characters are bi but it seems like writers never handle them well. I hope bisexual writers get to write them more I really only have hope with them
I love how the spider kan requirements are:
He cant kill
He cant torture
He cant steal
....
HE ALSO CANT BE A FA-
Thats a good thing
@@GmrGod10000 OH BROTHER!! YOUR GOOFY A§ AGAIN?!
@GmrGod10000 I'm so sorry that queer ppl existing hurts your lil fifis, go whine somewhere else.
@@zeflowerdemon8866 keys
@@GmrGod10000I suppose it would be if I also was carrying two brain cells. Fortunately I am not so I can tell it’s a bad thing.
People don’t realize that bisexuality can VERY EASILY go unnoticed in one’s own head. Straight culture loves to normalize “intrusive thoughts” and that idea combined with feelings of attraction to the “proper” gender makes it easy to ignore and not explore any homosexual attraction.
People don’t seem to understand that not everyone is gay or bi not everyone has to be made bi. Peter has been around for what 60. Years so fuck no I don’t care Peter is not bi he’s not gay he’s not any of that he’s a straight male get over it create a new Spider-Man like you did miles
@@jonathanhill3668you’re boring.
@@jonathanhill3668reporting you for spam bestie
@@JadeRGFA Because he spoke the truth; it's been established for 60 years
@CHARLYE-b4h you're on several comment threads, you are so worked up over this.
It’s funny how they act like comic book characters don’t change with every person that writes them. Nothing would be lost if one writer has him like both guys and girls.
Edit: “He’s always been straight” is not an argument. He’s a fictional character. Instead, explain without sounding homophobic why bi spiderman would be worse than straight spiderman.
Just the war for the worlds sanity.
@@perplexed89 corny ass comment
@rasputin4775 Ok. How about a more serious one. The integrity of the book and the company would be lost if they allowed writers to drastically change characters on a whim. There would be no point in following any series because there would be nothing to get invested in. Characters can "change" and should change. That's called character growth. However, people generally don't want to see characters' core elements thrown away because some dickhead of a talentless writer wants to pander with frivolous, unwanted vanity changes.
@@perplexed89 how about you get a life bro 😭
@@rasputin4775 I love gays and all but I would lose my respects to them if they starts messing up with Peter Parker
I feel like if some writer had the balls to have Peter Parker date another guy, it wouldn’t last very long. I’ve always been a Parker-Watson endgame kinda person, but I wouldn’t mind there being a continuity where Peter briefly dates a guy. Either he discovers he’s bi, or he comes to realize he isn’t bi. I think it could make an interesting story, though it would be met with a looooooooot of resistance.
I know some Spidey fans are tired of the Spider-Verse defining a lot of Spidey media these days, but I do appreciate the concept for allowing creators to explore new ideas for Spider-People, sexuality included. It’s one of the best things about the multiverse as a concept.
Imagin wade is punching air if he ever found out.
Imagin wade is punching air if he ever found out.
@@angrybrony Who is wade?
@@Animation_Noob-t5e wade wilson?
@@angrybrony OOHHHHHHH , ok now I get it XD
Marvel: “Anyone can be Spider Man… unless you’re gay.”
@@thegayghost872 Or trans, or bi, or pan, or poly, or ace, or are a cis gal, or maybe you can be trans so long as you've had bottom surgery before college and only got powers after.
Also, assuming Spider-Woman (specifically Gwen) isn't from a universe where bottom surgery happens for people under 18, she canonically has a dick so long as she ever went by "Spider-Man" before transitioning.
@@cyl_genderfluid-furry That always seemed disgusting to me, she is a teenager, obviously she is not trans, even more so with her father, it would be irresponsible to let her do that and nothing you say is true, there are 4 to 5 Spider people in Marvel who are bi, pan or whatever, but no. They are not Peter Parker and there is nothing wrong with that
@@CHARLYE-b4h Coping and seething over a minority existing? Really? This is the best you can do?
I’m pretty sure spider-man is allowed to be gay. Peter Parker on the other hand is specifically straight. Which I honestly don’t see the problem with tbh
@@cyl_genderfluid-furry Anyone can be Spider-Man but Spider Gwen being so young and people wanting representation in that seems disgusting to me, they do deserve to be represented but from there to that I think there is a very big line.
If they ever make Spider-Man bi they BETTER have a panel of Deadpool seeing his BF and screaming something like “It should have been me not him, it’s not fair”
If they ever make Peter gay or bi then I genuinely think fans should riot
Thatd be perfect
@@jonathanhill3668riot w joy
@@jonathanhill3668 is there nothing more important going on in your life?
@@jonathanhill3668> clicks on video about bi erasure
> “fans should riot if Peter was bi”
Dude make it make sense
Sometimes I wish "You're gay, you're just in denial" and "Pick one" would be treated like the hate speech that I think they really are. I apologise if that's not really related to Spider-Man, and also for paraphrasing what I believe is hate speech.
I agree that it’s hurtful when people say those things, but I think hate speech is more than just something that is hurtful. Hate speech would be like if someone suggested all bi people should be k*lled or that they are “sub-human.” That is hate speech. Even when religious people say it’s wrong, I think that should be allowed even though it hurts me as a bi person. Hate speech should be reserved for very serious human rights issues beyond hurting someone’s feelings or making them feel uncomfortable.
Bi men are just treated like gay men and bi women are treated as straight women who would be willing to have a threesome with a girl. It gives straight men an excuse to hate/be repulsed by bi men and also objectify bi women. It's all centered around very weird, old, and outdated ideas of gender and sexuality.
@@spacedaze1860 I respect your opinion, but I simply believe what you are describing is hate crime, because that is advocating for death, or the loss of someone's humanity. This is why I said what I said was only hate speech.
I don't know how the law would define the difference, though.
@@spacedaze1860as much hate speech as saying “it’s just a phase you’ll grow out of it”
@@ZelnyairI respect your opinion, too, but I do know that hate speech can be a crime outside of the US, and even in the US it can reach that level, as I mentioned. A lot of dissenting opinions can be defined as hate speech, which is why I would be careful to label things as such.
I personally headcanon Ms. Marvel (Kamala Khan) as being either bi or pan since she once said “everyone has a girlfriend except for me” when she learned her best friend Bruno was dating Mike and her older brother Aamir just got engaged to Tyesha.
Kamala's conflicted about a bunch of things, unfortunately she will never be given a 'challenging' storyline because Marvel avoids offending someone. Kamala being bi or pan would put her against her faith directly, since she seems to come from a somewhat conservative islamic family (especially her brother).
@@Bothrops_Asper_89 Kamala’s parents and brother are shown to be very accepting and loving people though…
I remember that scene. I mean i definitely can see it
@@Bothrops_Asper_89 which makes for a good personal conflict, reckoning with how her faith community has a tendency to not accept her. Writes itself
@@Naruto85RasenShurike Your parents can love you and want the best for you and can accept your oddities but it doesn't mean they will accept you if you do something that goes "against" their beliefs. My parents ignore my sexuality at all cost. They would never come to my wedding if I had one because I would be marrying my girlfriend and they believe marriage is between a man and a woman. Not two of the same sex. They still love me but they will never accept that one aspect about myself. That was a hard concept I had to learn in teenage years. I wish I had a story that explored the duality of accepting that your parents love you even if they disapprove an aspect of who you are.
As a bi man married to another bi man, the most annoying kind of homophobia I see is the equation of someone being gay/bi with being penis-obsessed. It’s so annoying, and it comes from people who generally don’t come off as overtly homophobic and even try to frame their argument as some kind of intellectual standpoint. Second to that is using gay sex terms as punchlines. Like saying someone sucks cock is an insult still and there doesn’t seem to be any pushback against people who normalize it.
A lot of what I don't like about our communities is so casually rooted that whenever I do push back people act like I'm demonizing them. I keep saying "it's not Normal but Normalized". Like where is the actual vanilla? I get that things take time but if people don't even want to consider what their saying is weird or harmful then I can't see them changing for the better.
More blunt examples are slurs. I do not mess with the F slur. I caught the R slur early in my child/teenhood and so rarely use it. The B slur is VERY interesting as I think it's one of the most "it's ok till it's not" type and it's the hardest for me not to say so like with misgendering I correct myself, apologize and move on. The N slur is another one I grew up on that I would never really say online cuz YALL can't see my face. Frame 1 yall do not know I'm black af and I see it as poor etiquette to communicate any kind of way online.
You'd hear me use B or N in my videos (like when dumb stuff happens) but even with friends I'm not really using those terms. If I get invaded in Dark Souls sure but talking to people? Nah.
People even asking "Why they gotta be gay" is the wrong move. I know it is habit for people to say that but...yall see my username. There's nothing wrong with being gay and while people may say it with well intention the negative insinuation is still there. Stuff like that I call out as I do want to teach people what they are actually saying cuz honestly it can be SO easy to just stop saying dumb stuff.
"How can spiderman be gay if he's never had an inner monolgoue box about it?"
Idk as an ace guy i don't have internal monologues in how I very much have 0 attraction to everyone.
Also read a book you could describe like that once where everything would stop to have the gay kid stop and masturebate to the setting's superman stand in regularly to... remind the reader he's gay I guess?
Being lgbt I think is in our heads a lot less often than a phobic's head
We queers are in many phobic's brains for rent free 24/7 like that ending scene in crash twinsanity.
a
@@sketch-eee4165 was not expecting a Twinsanity reference in a video about bi people, bravo good sir
Inner monologue boxes are gay, it is known lmao
LMAO, like "ah yes, it's time to think about how straight I am"
There’s also being completely oblivious. Up until the age of 13 I had had dozens of crushes on boys that I had told people about (mostly fictional, but I’d had some child friendly dating as well). I had ALSO had the same exact feelings about girls, but I didn’t know being gay was even a thing. Somehow it was never even mentioned so I never identified those feelings as the crushes they definitely were. It took same sex marriage being legalized for me to learn that was an option, and then it took another five months of active processing for me to realize I liked girls as well haha.
That’s the thing with figuring out sexuality! So much of it is looking back and recontextualizing these feelings that didn’t used to have something to link them to!
When I was little I thought that because the "only" possible way a romantic relationship can exist is if it's between a man and a woman if I had certain feelings for people of the other gender I liked them romantically, while if I had those same exact feelings for a person of the same sex I just REAAALLY wanted to be their friend 😂
I knew same sex relationships were a possibility but I thought I'd already figured it out because I had crushes on the opposite gender as early as when I was 5. I utterly panicked when I realised I'm bi.
The experience I see rarely mentioned is how back then I wanted to be a boy. I didn't realise then but by my logic it would have allowed me to openly like girls. I assumed that I can't like girls since I already am one and again, I didn't know about bisexuality.
It makes me angry - I can't even laugh about it - that there are still people that believe denying this part of sex education is the right thing to do. We got that and were did it leave us?
@@ellanaa9464 ooh yeah same for me. I would inexplicably imagine myself as the husband when I imagined getting married and I didn’t know why. I thought it was a sexism thing at first but it turns out it’s just bc I wanted a wife haha
@@thecolorjunedon’t start with gender stuff, like hehe haha but also damn it kinda isn’t funny how long I suffered just cause nobody wanted to tell me trans people exist.
When bringing up the Tim/Ariana scene you're leaving out the context. Ariana felt presurred to sleep with Tim cuz she was almost RAPED and he made the right call here in trying to talk her instead of jumping her bones. Ariana felt bad when Tim turned her down cuz it brought up those feelings again and she didn't know how to handle them. Also using him saying he's not ready as proof kind of veers into some toxic teenage boy mindset of "oh a teenage boy doesn't want to jump at sex, must be gay". Tim also could tell there was something up with Ariana as well.....ignoring the context feels gross.
Okey, thats...thats kinda fucked up when you put it liek that-
Not to mention that the page of Tim hugging Connor was the first time that Tim had seen Connor since Connor came back from the dead. Connor died during Infinite Crisis, Bart Allen was murdered by the Rogues shortly after that, Bruce was killed by Darkseid, and then when Dick became Batman, he replaced Tim as Robin with a bratty kid who had tried to murder Tim on multiple occasions. To say nothing of his real father being murdered by Captain Boomerang a few years earlier. In a short amount of time, Tim lost two fathers, his best friends, and the identity that he chose for himself. The "Red Robin" persona was representative of his self-destructive spiral. Painting the scene of Tim hugging Connor as homoerotic instead of as Tim stepping away from a proverbial ledge is toxic masculinity. Men can't be vulnerable unless it's in a romantic context, right?
Thank you for bringing up that context, that feels very important and I wish it wasn't used in this instance then.
@@DrLipkinI wouldn't call it toxic masculinity because there's nothing wrong with it being read as a deeper connection of a hug if someone chooses to see it that way. It doesn't mean straight men can't be vulenrable with other men if you interpet their relationship in a different way. But that context is also pretty important for someone who had experienced a tone of loss in a short amount of time.
@@bobtheball5384I’m that scenario it probably would read more like a brother hugging a brother
I think 97% of this video is fantastic, but I have to raise one point around Tim and Ariana, becaus even if we ignore all other context around that scene, Tim telling his girlfriend "I'm not ready" is one of the most important moments to me.
I really appreciate that you talked about that moment as one that can resonate with queer readers feeling pressured to have sex with someone of a gender identity that they aren't attracted to. I also think it's important to acknowledge that there is a really common and problematic stereotype of "boy isn't instantly onboard with jumping girl's bones? Boy must be gay" (also recognizing that this stereotype contributes to the on/off binary of gay or straight without recognition of bi/ace/other sexualities). I had a pretty strong emotional reaction to only verbally connecting that moment to experiences of sexual orientation rather than sexuality as a whole, because it's one where I think that feeling connected to that moment is less about sexual orientation and more about attitude towards sex.
Tim's not ready to have sex with Ariana and tells her so. 1) I love and always have to highlight the communication here and importance of consent from both parties. 2) Does Tim's sexual orientation play a role in telling Ariana this? It could, and that's one valid way of reading/connecting with the scene. But watching this part of the video felt to me like "no one is not ready for sex unless if they're repressed," when Tim Drake was always one of my favorites because he demonstrated that he was going through life feeling the same as me (or at least as I try to be). This is true of a lot of his attitudes and beliefs, but the relevant one here is knowing and respecting that you personally aren't ready for sex, without thinking less of people who are, and still having your relationships be treated as valid.
-Then the New 52 happened and Tim slept with 3 of his female teammates in a single comic issue and yes I miss Stephanie teasing Tim about being the Boy Virgin because he had a momentary panic about her being pregnant after they started dating.-
But anyways, outside of that critique, fantastic video as always. You brought me in with your Nightcrawler video, and you've quickly risen to becoming my favorite video essayist. Keep rocking on, dude.
Another thing about the Ariana scene is that the context was Ariana felt presurred to sleep with Tim cuz she was almost RAPED and he made the right call here in trying to talk her instead of jumping her bones. Ariana felt bad when Tim turned her down cuz it brought up those feelings again and she didn't know how to handle them. I do agree using him saying he's not ready as proof kind of veers into some toxic teenage boy mindset of "oh a teenage boy doesn't want to jump at sex, must be gay". Tim also could tell there was something up with Ariana as well hence him saying "we're not ready" and got to the gist of it instead of jumping her bones.
What did Tim is what we should encourage in young men, talking to their partners about sex and communicating instead of jumping their bones and communicating to really see if both are ready and if not, it's ok and there's no need to call the attraction in question. A romance just isn't based on sex and that's an attitude we shouldn't reinforce and the whole 'he didn't jump her bones, so he must gay' veers into it.
Yeah I’m with you on this one! His reading is valid, but I feel the stronger reading was validating that everyone has their own pace with sex and emphasizing that mutual consent it’s important. Honestly that speaks more to me.
such a good comment
As a bisexual demigirl the comment about the symbiote made me laugh cause it just made me think "the bisexuality takes over like the venom symbiote"
Talking about _symbiotic shipping,_ am I the only person who likes the idea of MJ/Venom? Not MJ with Eddie or Flash or any of Venom's _hosts,_ but MJ with the symbiote itself.
What does demigirl mean? I've heard it before but never seen a definition.
@@yharleththegrandobserver236It means partially a girl, so not 100%
@@earthyemeraldy just sounds non-committal lmao
@bfnmo7750 I mean, historically that's a huge thing. Hijra, vakasalewalewa, two-spirit, wakashu... a kind of third "in-between"/"non-commital" gender has existed in tons of cultures across the world. It's just most were for those born male. So now that we have more equality and binary obligations havw faded away, it makes sense that we'd be getting more identities since there's more freedom to discover them.
This makes me think back to Ultimate Spiderman. In the ultimate universe Spiderwoman's a genderbent clone of Spiderman so she shares not only his memories and personality, but also his love for Mary Jane and Kitty Pryde. So what's interesting about this is...in one of the later comics she winds up making out with Johnny Storm. When Peter finds out about this he just completely freaks out, like his thought bubbles were just *filled* with his internal screaming. Reading that as a kid I didn't know how else to interpret it other than him being a closeted bisexual who was just suddenly forced to confront his feelings for Johnny for the first time.
Honestly? 1610 Peter being bi would make _so much sense._
@@DammitVictor-8H No, it doesn’t make sense. The Spider-Woman from that universe had an identity crisis arc because she literally had the memories of a man. She mentions waking up in the morning and forgetting that she doesn't have a penis. Johnny Storm literally kisses her, but in the end, she doesn't reciprocate and looks for women. Ultimate Peter Parker was never bi.
Dude your content fucking rocks. As a bi guy struggling with Christian faith your nightcrawler and magneto videos hit hard and now you’re dropping a video on bi erasure AND Spider-Man? Yea dawg I’m subbing 🙏🏾
As a fellow Bi fellow The Bible passage that condemns homosexuality only applies if you are a top. If you’re the one getting fucked in the butt that is not as a man lye with a women thus you are fine.
Gramuglia makes terrible videos
Nightcrawler is best X-Man
If there had been a lot more bi representation out there when I was a teen, I wouldn't have had such a problem to figure out that I was, too. For a while, I was convinced that I had to be either straight or gay, because that was the only alternatives, right? Wrong. But that was some truly angsty time. Now it's many years later and you know what? I'm bi, and am comfortable in my sexuality.
SLAY🎀
Nobody cares u don't need to see that someone else is bi to find yourself that's stupid and make new characters peter parker isn't bi
I think there’s a version of Dick Grayson that is bisexual. Specifically in Gotham knights. He did an interview where its’s said:
“The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, it seems. Dick Grayson, much like the recently departed Bruce Wayne, is an irresponsible flirt. The tabloids are flush with mentions of his exploits and gorgeous company that he keeps. I asked Dick Grayson if he had a specific type, and he leaned close then, his voice lowered to an intimate purr, his gaze for me and no one else. ‘People are gorgeous. All of them. Why restrict myself to an archetype when this world is full of beauty? Gorgeous, gorgeous people everywhere. Including the ranks of gothams elites.”
And I think he has a bi-sexual mug.
Dick Grayson isn't bisexual.
@@TheBackseaterYT the Gotham knights version is. Get over it.
@@Akira-Akari No, it 's not
@@carlosdavidsabogalmotta4327 because saying you like all people is straight.
@@Akira-Akari by some motive that somone like You said it is not amazing.
I'm honestly perfectly okay with the base iteration of spiderman staying straight, I'm just upset by the sheer volume of people who act like it's a personal attack on them if he's anything other than what they consider normal. Like it's some horrible atrocity if suddenly he's like "nah guys are pretty hot too", despite it not changing anything about what's happened to his characterization. He'd still have been into Mj, or Black Cat, or Silk, or whoever else, but also "yeah that guy's pretty attractive" and somehow it's just not the same spiderman to them
I don't mind a gay or bi spider man, but with how we have explored main 616 spidey in all facets throwing it on him doesn't feel like representation but changing a character just to change them
Now a multiverse spider man being gay or bi is fine
Its why people have had issues with other characters, they took very established characters and added new sexuality not because it makes sense for the character but because they want that character to be that way, especially when it messes with relationships a character has had for decades
Ngl i have a few problems with your statements,
1: No one said it had to be 616
2: People having problems with characters because they were already established is a half truth, yes some of the characters were already very established, but at least half of the people hated gay/bi characters hated them because they were gay/bi
The kitty pride coming out as bisexual is so real though, think about , you're a bisexual woman who was about to marry a guy and had several homoeromantic relationships with her girl friends so she needs to coming out every time she goes out on a date ... As bisexual thats so real lol
Also , another incredible bisexual character who actually never came out, but this case the marvel editorial didn't allowed, its, surprisingly, GAMBIT. I think the writer Asmus in his 2012 solo talked about how he was supposed to have a more explicit coming out bisexuality but the editorial didn't allow it..... Which is so crazy to me bc if there's a man I know is bisexual is my guy Remy Lebeau......
@@leonis5664 it was Chris Claremont’s idea for Gambit to Bisexual right from the beginning, but openly queer characters were prohibited by the comics code authority at the time. I’m surprised that they never wrote a story where Remy came out, especially during those long periods in the books where he and Rogue were broken up/ on different teams or just doing their own separate things.
@@Dhampir101980 oh yeah i heard about that! Very similar with Kitty Pryde also. Oh and I looked it up and the writer James Asmus for his 2012 comic said in an interview he intended to have a scene where Remy seduced a man in one of his missions but the editor stepped up and said no luck lol, also i do remember Marjorie Lou (another writer) implying Remy's bisexuality in some reddit QnA or something....
And yeah i think he never came out officially but i know Remy has been written to subtle flirty with men (ex. Bishop, Northstar , Doctor Voodoo( like not as overtly as he does with women 🤔) so it's like, an open secret situation almost lol.
I dont expect him to come out because he's married to Rogue now so to Marvel that means he's straight and thats it ( even though he was seeing hanging out with Black Cat, another bisexual thief in the Pride issue Lmao, so it's like, here some crumbs for us bisexuals but never something concrete is coming i fear. But we in the know, know 💜💙
I don't consume a lotta of X-men (Sort of, I consumed X-men since I was a kid but it's a weird hard to explain situation ok) but from what I've of Gambit, Yeah, that tracks
Although, I wonder how it would be like if the "hes an imaginary friend" plot point stuck around. Would he help that one kid navegate his sexuality later on or...?
"Just some guy" is the type of person who will go out of his way just to hate.
Not only making a tweet but a whole ass video😭he probably got mad after making the tweet and couldn't get it out of his mind
unsurprisingly, he’s a “Miles Morales is Miles Morales” type guy
Just Some Guy says in the full video that he's a bi man himself. So his opinions on bi representation are probably more nuanced than simple hate for the sake of hatred.
@@DrLipkin And being bi means you can't be wrong? I don't get your point.
@DrLipkin Well I'm Bi and I disagree heavy with him. Guess the debates at a net 0 then.
thanks now i get to live with the phrase "phallic unicorn" in my brain for the rest of my life
I’d rather them just call me a slur than “phallic unicorn” like what does that even mean?? A creative read doesn’t always equal a good one💀
@@matrixiekitty2127 reminds me of that one clip where pat is making fun of bigoted politicians who pretend to care when dealing with groups they hate, and woolie just starts begging him to call him the n-word because the dancing around it was infinitely more annoying
like if you so blatantly hate gay people just say the slur bro, people already wanna deck you
My grandmother came out to me as bisexual when she was like 70 years old. She was married to my grandfather still and it changed nothing, but she just casually said, "I never even thought of going with other girls as an option. I didn't even know that was something you could do growing up. I probably would've done it if I knew back then."
this
With bisexual characters in fiction (probably all LGBTQIA characters), I think there needs to be a fair acknowledgement of the challenges in being critiqued. If they came out later in life, they've been "woke-ified" or are "pandering". If they enter a monogamous relationship, they "stopped being bi". If they predominantly show attraction to one gender over the other, they're "not performing their bisexuality enough". If they show too much attraction all the time, they're "promoting harmful stereotypes and/or are being fetishized".
I think that, rather than pushing every LGBTQIA character to perform to some ideal of perfect representation, we just need... more representation. We can have the monogamous bisexual and the flirty bisexual and the 90/10 bisexual. There's enough room in fiction for everyone to feel seen.
Bi representation is so tricky because we're such a large group with so many varying experiences, even if you're not using it as an umbrella term for all orientations based around attraction to multiple genders and just counting the people who explicitly identify as bisexual. We're a mixed gender group and our dating pool is a mixed gender group, so it's hard to appeal to that desire to have every example of bi rep show off every aspect of bisexuality at once. Theoretically we would need a lot of bi rep if we were to try and represent all the different ways to be bisexual (not unlike non-binary representation, where there's an infinitely huge swath of genders under that label... which also feeds into that whole "our dating pool is mixed gender" thing.)
To me at least what's more important than personal representation which I consider mostly a feel-good moment for me personally, is the normalization that showing diverse sexualities and gender identities to audiences who're usually not exposed to those ideas as being normal. Like, even if there's a trans character that is not at all my vibe or represents my experiences I think it's really important that _a_ experience is being portrayed so that it's no longer such a stretch for others to imagine what kind of person I am and what my experiences have been.
I do think intersectional identities are important for showing intersectional issues that are often unique to those experiences(Like Sun-Spider), so rather what I consider less important when it comes to representation and how it aids in normalizing queer identities is like, the different ways you can be a trans woman, the different ways you can be bisexual, the different ways in which you can be non-binary, etc.. Those are still good things to show and show awareness of, but maybe you show the depth of experience of a character who is agender and asexual and they have minor characters around them that are less explored but represent different queer spectrum characteristics. I think depth in a character is way more important for establishing familiarity with marginalized experiences that having a long checklist identities and experiences to check off but doesn't get explored enough.
aka then you DFO NOT do it and specially do nto turn a character bi for the sake of it.
For queer spider-people there was MJ Spider-Woman from the original Exiles comics. She was a lesbian, I believe. She was in a relationship with Mariko. They were so cute together.
If I remember correctly they killed her off during the Spider-Verse stuff. 🤦🏽♀️ And Mariko died way before that in the Exiles comics.
Of course the lesbians both died.
That's been my main problem with "oh you can have a queer SIDE CHARACTER" but you and I both know those characters are either offed or ignored or not allowed romance or pushed into romance with another obscure character all while being BACKUP to the main guy and we don't even get normal talks highschool and even adult life is full of dating/relationship type talk but when it comes to queer characters they put a piece of tape over their mouths and go "shhhh"
Bury your gays at full effect again?
I don’t believe Peter is straight in EVERY universe. That doesn’t make sense
I don’t think think there’s any universes we’re aware of where he’s gay though.
@paleospino4956 and some spider man aren't Peter parker
To clarify- Dick Grayson & Jason Todd is the most PLATONIC pairing as indicated by the '&' while Clark Kent/Bruce Wayne is the most ROMANTIC pairing as seen by the '/' .
i knew this was already gonna be a banger but bringing up peter parker’s situationship with johnny storm really was the cherry on top
As a bisexual woman, the first American comicbook I ever bought was Deadpool. How anyone can read that character as straight is beyond me... especially after seeing the Deadpool & Wolverine movie!! So many of these characters are queer-coded, it blows my mind. 😂 Excellent video! I really enjoyed it -- lots of well made points.
Wait, There's people that see Deadpool as Straight? _Deadpool?_
@@teddybear766 Yup! Because he's "never been with a guy" full stop. Technically he only ever dates women in the books/movie. So all the flirting is seen as non-serious jokes.
Yeah for me I see Gwen/Ghost Spider as bisexual. Sure she had a relationship with Miles but in Marvel Rising cartoon. She would ignore others on the team except the leader Daisy Johnson & showed the bisexual fingers. Besides that in the comics I’m not into MJ but have seen panels of them together as like a parallel to her & Spiderman
Deadpool is a Pansexual people!!!
@@aspenfallen In the comic series there once a serious discussion of Cable and Deadpool getting together. Cable told him forget about it LOL.
I think the hardest part of the video to listen to are at the people crying about making the characters queer. I do love this though! It really resonated with me, and I wish more people would listen to the bi experience. 10/10 video. Def sharing it around. Probably my favorite video of yours so far. Then again maybe I am Bi-ased... 😂❤
Oh yeah, the bitching felt like nails on a chalk board but I stuck through it to gain perspective. Even if it meant my eyes rolling back so far I saw my brain😅
@@matrixiekitty2127 tell me about it
Watching those parts genuinely felt like someone showing everyone their unwashed toe with pulsing leaking pus I had to pause and take a shower
i think listening and seeing stan lee (who, yeah, i realise, i idolised maybe abit) making fun of and rediculing only the IDEA that spiderman could be anything other than straight and having the WHOLE room laugh about it was the most painful part
There's a great documentary that I've seen too much called "Casting By", about Casting Directors and their struggle for recognition. A large focus of the documentary is on an incredibly prolific director named Marion Dougherty.
Richard Donner recounts the casting for Lethal Weapon, particularly for Murtaugh, where Marion suggested Danny Glover. Donner's reaction was, "But he's black", to which Marion just stared and him and said, "And?". He had no excuse. There's no reason Murtaugh COULDN'T be black, and Donner later said that hiring Danny Glover elevated the film and it was the best decision they could've made.
So put simply: Why CAN'T Peter Parker kiss a dude?
Simply put: because we already explored his sexuality, and found out he's straight.
Honestly, it's just that, a part of the character identity that is so well defined that to change it you'd need a new character - which is why there's the spider-verse, so you could explore those ideas without compromising a character.
Same thing goes for queer characters, its part of their identity, so don't change it.
Also, the social norms of the time influenced it quite a lot, at least for the "legally not allowed to"
when was this stated? @@teddybear766
I'm really taken by your definitions of bisexuality and pansexuality!! They're so succinct and respectful without putting them against each other, relying on transphobia or bioessentialism. I think that you describe them both really beautifully and kindly. Thanks for sharing your thoughts n words, my guy.
I would like to point out that said definitions are far from universally accepted among the bisexual community. There are plenty of people who self-identify as bisexual who aren't attracted to genders, just to people. It's engineering a division that just doesn't actually exist.
So there’s nothing saying Spiderman can’t be a trans man then lol
They say he has to be man, not that he couldn’t be trans 😎
Honestly I think superhero stories in general work well as trans allegories or part of trans narratives since you have the aspect of the double life. One half being the person you were born as with the name normally associated with you, and the other half. An identity that was created by the hero, including an appearance they made for themselves (the costume) and a name they chose. I think it could be cool to have a closeted trans hero who presents as their biological sex in their civilian identity but pass as their actual gender when they put on the superhero mask.
No.
Is this a rage bait???? Woke can't be stopped 😭
@Nanxi_wei7865 can't have fun anymore, because of woke :(
@@IceFireofVoidyeah, the Spider-Verse Gwen is already seen as a huge allegory by trans women.
Marvel isn’t even brave enough to let spider-man be able to state he’s Jewish cause they’re afraid of “alienating” him. No way they’d let Peter kiss a dude. The response would be homophobic AF, & not just from str8 shitheels. I’ve had more than enough negative experience with queer spider-man fans. The internalized homophobia from those ppl is worst I’ve ever seen online.
Peter should be able to kiss Harry Osborn, Johnny storm, Marc Spector, Miguel or Deadpool but we will never get it cause the company, the fans, & even members of lgbtqia community would rather fall on a sword than see that happen.
he’s jewish in the spider-verse movies. he doesn’t SAY “erm, i’m jewish” but he is. had a jewish wedding. he also just uses obviously jewish phrasing throughout the movies. those movies pay a great deal of attention to culture and identity, even if they aren’t holding your hand through it.
He shouldn't kiss Harry or Johnny because the dude isn't gay or bi, not every character needs to be
@@MRSHREKJR nobody said he “needs” to be, it’s just fun. bisexuality also just literally opens up twice as many doors for romantic storytelling. it’s just a fair direction to take a character.
@tonoornottono yeah it can be fun for certain characters, but not for Spider-Man or other characters who are already confirmed to be straight
@@MRSHREKJR how many times has he been “confirmed” to be dead? who cares?
As a bi person, I hate bi erasure. And I wish there was more properly nuanced bisexual representation in media
Then make your own characters and stop hijacking our characters.
@@TheBackseaterYTsomeone’s crying
@PrinceDoggie07 Yeah, it's Kyoneko because he wants something he's not gonna get.
@@TheBackseaterYT well there’s been lots of heterosexual characters in marvel etc. So I feel like diversity is better for films and comics 🤷♀️
connar not being bi feels like the worst timeline
We were so close to greatness
@@nkosig4995 Why so?
Moar like Bi-derman
I hate this got a chuckle out of me
Take your like and know this joke was horrible and I have a terrible sense of humor
does whatever a bi-der can
We had enough of Mary Jane, let Peter have his Matthew James
Please don't make my boy date some named Matthew💀💀💀
@@niharika3280 lol fr. Do you have a better name idea?
Matthew better not be ginger, nor have blue hair and pronouns
@@DungEnjoyerr if Matthew doesn't have pronouns how will we talk about Matthew
@@niharika3280 Matthew bad. Matthew ginger therefore bad. Caveman talk.
Hot take, I guess:
Morph (or any other shapeshifter, for that matter) being non binary is boring.
It's as boring as making your gay character a flamboyant fashion diva or your lesbian character an overly masculine dominant boss lady.
I'll repeat, it's not bad, it's not offensive, it doesn't make a character automatically badly written, you can make anything work, With enough talent and dedication, but it's the most stereotypical, lazy and boring way of writing those particular queer characters.
All I'm going to say is baby steps. After the Hayes Code, restoring non-hetero sexualities has been a slow fight. Eventually, your representation will come, but the audience is getting eased into it through the easy route.
I somehow feel it's more okay to be boring in the "enby shapeshifter" way than the "flamboyant gay" way. The latter feels reductive and stereotypical, since there's a much more tenuous connection between being gay and being flamboyant than there is being a shapeshifter and enby. Being able to put yourself in the shoes of multiple genders with unthinkable ease has got to open your eyes to some things.
I do agree that it's boring though. It could be very interesting to see how a strong binary shapeshifter could feel having to occupy a different gender for extended periods of time.
@TheThirtyFourth I'd say I agree
Same for Autistic-coded Robots.
THANK YOU! I wasn’t offended by Morph being non-binary, it just felt obvious and boring. Even their design as a blank face person makes the character more boring.
also why was bernard and tim drawn looking like 14 year olds when they came out as bi like
bernard used to have a beard lmao
Gay fetishism unfortunately. Like seriously how did they turn a alternative guy into a generic yaoi twink besides to appeal to yaoi fangirls
The twinkification of DC
In all seriousness, I have never seen a 14 year old that looks like that. They look more like CW actors that are very obviously in their 20’s but the showrunners pretend are what 16 year olds look like. It would’ve been much cooler though to see Tim be interested in a very masculine presenting man as opposed to some twink, it would’ve shown a more nuanced perspective of his bisexuality as having an attraction towards both highfemme cis-gendered women and burly buff guys. Would also retroactively explain his childhood adoration of Superman lol.
@@handsoaphandsoap actually so true. Plus Jon Kent's boyfriend is already in that more femme/twink space. It's not necessarily bad to repeat that, but it would've been cool to see tim take another direction
Bernie has been drawn in a million different styles. Exhausted gym bro, aerodynamic collection of polygons, used car salesman in training, etc. It feels like the only thing DC artists can agree on about Bernard is that he's blonde. Like, just wait for Red Robin to get another solo run, Bernard will probably look different again lol.
Again I’m here wishing I was living in a different timeline… the one where Spider-Man got bi representation on the big screen
It is was a wiser decision for them to turn that down though.
Well, that'd require them using a version of Spider-Man that isn't Peter Parker, since Peter Parker is straight.
I wish you brought up Ultimate Jessica Drew/Spider Woman/Scarlet Spider/Black Widow as a queer spider-person. She's a clone of Peter and is confirmed to be a lesbian (since she litterly says that she has an attraction to "Red heads and Jewish girls" that Peter has), and she has heavy trans-coded implications with her struggle with her identity as a female clone of a male person who sees and identifies herself as female but has all her male counterparts memories.
RIP Jessica-1610. We hardly knew ye.
Let's be honest, she was never bi. Johnny literally saw her, but she never reciprocated, and then they mentioned she was dating a woman. So, she's not bi; she's a lesbian. But in her case, it's more complicated because she has a body with female hormones, not male.
@@CHARLYE-b4hwhat do the hormones have to do with anything? I feel like I missed a step.
26:07 actually on Ao3 a ship with a "&" between the names is usually just a platonic/familiar ship, so all those "Dick Grayson & Jason Todd" fics probably explore their relationship as brothers. (Romantic would be "dick grayson/jadon todd")
Being a bi nerd is the worst of both worlds with one silver lining: I feel the constant need to perform acts of nerdiness to prove my feelings are valid but then they are dismissed anyway because I'm queer. *sigh* At least everyone is hot.
Tim Drake being into Conner is something I've believed for years, but I never once got the sense it was reciprocated. Bernard was a strange choice but I don't think Conner would have made sense.
Conner constantly calls Tim "his" Robin. And he was far more hurt when Tim kept secrets from him than any of his girlfriends. Plus, he is a clone who was raised without any preprogrammed prejudice except for maybe "Superman must date people whose name and surname start with the same letter"
@@luxshine I didn't mean to imply that Kon was prejudiced, not at all.
just that his bond with Tim wasn't romantic for him.
@@andyenglish4303 Sorry, sorry, I didn't think you implied Kon was prejudiced, just wanted to point out that there's absolutely no reason why Kon couldn't also be Bi, considering both his biology and how he was educated :) I think Kon was far more into Tim at first than Tim into Kon, but hey, that's the beauty of shipping. Different flavors for different people!
@@andyenglish4303 In TT03 Tim and Kon's relationship was based off that of Geoff Johns and his brother who wrote scenes such as Tim changing his costume to honor Kon and trying to clone him
@@luxshinethey feel way more like actual close friends. That’s part of why I love their dynamic. They came off like Bruce and Clark IF Bruce and Clark were allowed to be more open with their friendship and didn’t have the pressure of being the world’s finest. They felt like found brothers. Conner calling Tim his Robin doesn’t feel romantic. It’s literal, especially after Damian takes up the role, and with how close they are. I’m over Tim being bi, despite not liking Bernard: but shipping Tim and Conner will never not feel like tumblr shipping.
Honestly, I would have liked if Jonathan kent would have stayed a kid and realized he was bisexual via his relationship with Damien.
They had good chemistry, and they wouldn’t even have to make damien bi. It could have just been a crush, one they would talk about, and Damien would be harsh, insensitive, but supportive. Could even have a line like, "Out of all of the qualities I hate about you, your sexuality isn’t one of them, kent."
This absolutely this.
I believe every single fictional character is canonically bisexual UNTIL they tell me directly their actual sexual preferences. Unless Batman looks directly through the hypothetical camera and says “By the way I’m straight and only like women” I will just assume he’d be ok with guys too.
😭
Stan Lee dijo que era heterosexual. Su creador
Great video! One tiny thing... you did dabble in a bit of asexual erasure at 44:30 when you said "they're just attracted to people like everyone else." Obviously this video isn't about asexuality at all, I get that, but I think it's also important to not erase other people when we're talking about why being erased ourselves feels bad.
if making a straight guy just a little bit more gay is such a problem to you, then you aren't a real fan tbqh
peter can still be bi and have mj as endgame idk why that's such a hard thing to understand, this isn't astrophysics we talking bout
But he doesn't need to be bi
Because for some people, that isn't enough. Because I seriously suspect people will never want MJ to be an endgame because it somehow invalidates that. People are pretty damn irrational and don't view characters as people, just husks to project themselves onto.
@@MRSHREKJRPeter didn't "need" to have organic webbing, or be represented via totem in the Web of Life and Destiny.
That doesn't mean those stories didn't have value
@zacharybosley1935 Brother, those are completely different things
@@MRSHREKJR Peter also didn't need to be married, own a company, have his body swapped with Otto, don the black suit, rip the face off kraven's wife, become possessed by the sins of Norman Osborne, none of these were critically mandatory for his character or his arc, so why is being Bi suddenly the sticking point?
bi-erasure is so pervasive. my best friend is bi and she's been in a relationship with her husband since high school. she realized a couple of years into their marriage that she was bi and that's ok. they are still happily married and they are monogamous. you don't have to prove that you're bi by dating other people and you can certainly be bi and be in a heterosexual relationship. it's not that hard to grasp. i don't understand how people can be so inflexible in their thinking.
I think Peter could discover his bisexuality later in life as it’s not a change but an addition to his lore. It doesn’t erase any of his attraction to his love interests and just opens up more attraction possibilities.
I think the key feature is to build upon hum in a way that be understandable.
Exactly. Nothing gets destroyed with that as an addition (other than fragile incel's egos), and it opens up many character arc possibilities.
I'd say just leave that for a different spider character to discover for themselves. Peter is way too well established for something like that.
@@mattd5240Peter's been through more retcons and reboots than nearly any other A-list character. Any one of those iterations could make room for a little spidersexual exploration.
@@sketch-eee4165 (your not using that right)
AND FUCK NO peter fucking parkers been straight since before i and you were born he'll be straight before my kid is born he'll be straight before they ever fix his marriage
@@mattd5240 you seem quite aggressive with the amount of comments you have left
26:09: the & symbol indicates a platonic pairing, the most popular DC romantic pairing on AO3 is Batman/Superman, aka Superbat.
I was 63 before I realized I was bisexual. I don’t think I was suppressing anything, because I was always open to the idea, but it was definitely an evolution. Anyone can learn of new dimensions to their sexuality over time.
I have a strange relationship with bi characters in fiction. There's something about them that makes it feel like, at a glance, the easier orientation to include because they can be hidden away by just having them in a relationship with the opposite gender, which I know is incredibly unfair for me to think because there are bi and pan folk who only ever have a relationship with one gender, or even never getting into a relationship with anyone.
I think this stems from not having any explicitly visible representation in media growing up. Even now its still pretty rare. I want more representation as a whole, for every orientation, but I will likely always gravitate to characters in same sex relationships just because you're getting to see it. This would make it a lot harder to include bi and pan character though, as like with Kitty Pryde, its only shown once in a blue moon then folk are likely to forget and see the character as either gay or straight.
Sorry for talking about cartoons when this is a comics space, but I think The Owl House and its handling of bisexual characters is really interesting.
Hunter, a boy, and Willow, a girl, have crushes on eachother and get together by the end of the series. They show no onscreen interest in anyone else, and there's no discussion or "evidence" for either of their sexualities otherwise. But it was "confirmed" by the series creator that Hunter is bisexual and Willow is pansexual. That's something that could be really frustrating, could even seem like pandering or queer baiting, but honestly it doesn't bother me one bit!
The reason for that is that the show's protagonist, Luz, is a bisexual girl with a lesbian girlfriend. She's openly bi, showing interest in both genders, and even coming out to her mom with a powerpoint that says "Hi, I'm bi!"
Basically, what I'm trying to get at is that there's room for all kinds of bisexual representation in media. There's no inherent problem with bisexual characters who only date people of a different gender, since sometimes that's what happens in reality. The problem is with creators who treat bisexuality as "straight-lite" exclusively. When we see more bi characters onscreen who date same gender charcters regularly or dicuss same gender attraction in a normalized manner, that's when I'll stop complaining about all the ones who don't.
Peter Parker has never been a static character, he's evolved a lot in the past 60 years, the world has changed so much that the writers had to make countless tweaks to his character to keep the way he fits into the world despite the changing circumstances.
That why I ship Garfield & Reynolds's SpideyPool.
ps: Glover's Spidey for Pudi's Batman being head over heels is also my Roman empire.
People being so defensive of Peter changing over time in such relatively innocuous ways (he is not any different or less as a person just for realizing he may have further preferences beyond what he originally thought) and considering it "political" is so sad. Sadder still for the ones that have already crossed that threshold like Tim. So regressive. Reminds me of the push-back, mostly past but still partially present, of rejecting Miles as a "true" Spider-Man simply for the colour of his skin. Just Some Guy and the like are so insecure and shallow.
I liked when Deadpool has a spell that brought his one true love to him, and it seriously summoned Spider-Man. One cannot joke with a magic book, despite what the "haters" will say, and I am glad Deadpool is able to express himself therein.
Man deadpool is mostly a comedy character and peter sees him as a friend deadpool sees spiderman as his soulmate but spiderman not peter's soulmate is MJ but he's not interested in him more than that and deadpool says he wants to be around of spidey because he wants to be a good person to raise his daughter so that she is not a murderer like him .And not all characters have to be BI they made tim drake bisexual but there is no need to do the same with peter
Comedy does not preclude serious romance, ignoring the fact Deadpool straddles the line regardless.
I never said Spider-Man reciprocates, I just find it heartwarming Deadpool has Spider-Man so close to his heart.
What is "needed" is subjective.
@@CHARLYE-b4h Yuh.
this video gets better and better the more it goes on. when you said "on ao3" i almost fell over.
13:31 as a Spider-Man fan, who has never read the comics the fact that they ripped off their shirts to seduce the Symbiot caught me off guard so much that I had to walk away cause like wait what that was the only way
The line read of "Who the fuck is Bernard?" was pretty brutal
19:09 i think black cat, and those like her (ivy, selina harley) when straight male writers are involved that a lot of the girls’ bisexuality feels performative, fetishisation, and truly a base-level understanding of what wlw relationships are, and that’s if they even pair them with other women. a lot of straight men’s only experience with sapphic relationship are the hub, and other media depictions in comics, film and tv shows. so sensual aspects of their sexuality is jacked up, but the minutiae of everyday relationships feels so hollow. a lot of them use it as an excuse to draw two hot women kissing, for one of them to eventually run back to an ex-male fling (which don’t even get me started on the layers of biphobia in that consistent trope). which in turn is why we see very little representation for lesbians.
everyone’s got their own headcanons but honestly, to me tim’s bisexuality feels like a waste (but still the right call), it don’t think it was handled well because the editorial seemed to be scared of tim’s coming out journey, instead just turning to bernard and being like (oh, tim’s into guys) like yeah, we know, have you read young justice? but how tim realised was kinda ignored. to a extent, even with his writing with kon, it felt like dc is one again too scared to change the status quo with dick and honestly, jason. (dick’s two biggest queer ship to be fair, isn’t really something i think dc should ever purse anytime soon, considering jason is is brother and wally… is so utterly in love with linda, it drove him insane).
to this day i’m still surprised they’ve not went fully in on ace lesbian cass + fellow bi disaster steph.
also, “fish with his chips” is such a weird way of describing women.
i remember jon’s sexuality being discussed on british morning news (basically GMA but it’s GMB) and gay, conservative (“actor” more reality tv show star) came on whinging about “superman being gay” and i remember being so pissed off that not only a old white gay would be so reductive (oh my sweet optimistic child brain) but also, they were discussing this at length without mention that jon was in fact bisexual and not clark.
25:25 While talking about Tim Drake and Bernard, made me remember the injustice they did Jon Kent as well. Fans had been routing for him and Damian since the Supersons comics and the when DC finally made him canonly Bi, they shipped him off with some dude named Jay? Like who the hell are you?? Just give us our JonDami content! It's not gonna change the image of either Damian or Jon, grow a spine, DC
Ngl I see where you’re coming from but I really don’t see Damian as bi/gay just because of how much he is like his father. They are committed to their mission first always even if they do have love interests they never seem fully committed. Maybe Damian could end up with Jon but I feel like that would seem like they forced them into it because of their chemistry instead of because the characters actually feel that way. Not hating I just seriously can’t imagine damian with anyone esp not Jon even with their chemistry. In my opinion I think he’s Asexual, I see damian more committed to the “mission” than Batman sometimes, though I’d love to have my mind changed
@@danielboss5968 fair point, I also head canon him as somewhere on the ace spectrum, but maybe it's just my personal preference that Jon and Damian would be cute together. Damian and Bruce's commitment to the mission of Batman and Robin don't negate the possibility of their sexualities, in fact their jobs as vigilantes have nothing to do with their orientations, it's more so to do with their own personal traumas and attachments/commitment issues, but that's a whole new topic
@@danielboss5968 sorry for the yap sesh, I personally didn't read all the comics so maybe my information is wrong, but that's just how I feel
i feel like i have to point out that the ‘dick grayson & jason todd’ tag is strictly platonic-it’s not an actual relationship tag, but otherwise, this was an amazing video essay!
i knew there was a weird dynamic with superhero and bisexuality, but this was very insightful :D
Say what you will about The Amazing Spider-Man movies, but Andrew Garfield seemed genuinely invested in the character and had what I consider a much better insight into how to characterize Peter than even the writers (see: his thoughts on how Peter would view Tony Stark, his thoughts on Peter's relationship to Judaism, his thoughts on what Spider-Man represents).
Also, the "thought bubble" argument from the person disparaging your opinion is so funny. Do...do they not understand how comics work? That there are literally infinite possibilities in an infinite number of universes that can be explored? Like imagine if in every comic iteration that Peter had to exposit what has happened in every single universe before the new story could be told because otherwise the fabric of space and time would fall apart.
I kind of regret not mentioning on your community post that Spideypool has been one of my most constant ships throughout my life. Quick shoutout to that time in the Monsters Unleashed tie-in when Spider-Man was summoned to Deadpool's location by magic because he's Deadpool's "heartmate." It is incredibly frustrating that Deadpool's attraction and/or flirtations with men are presented as comedically predatory. Everyone wants to highlight his attraction to men but never as a positive quality, only as a chance to make other men uncomfortable.
Closing thoughts, 19 Women & Death should be a metal band to be completely real with you.
1:36 what did he say? The audio is really muffled
He said, "I don't know- I seriously- I don't know anything about that. And if it's true I'm going to make a couple of phone calls."
Is it just me, or does Jason Todd seem very (most likely unintentionally) Aromantic coded??
I would say so, yeah
Feels crazy how easy it is to follow the story along as someone who has next to none knowledge about Marvel. Great video mate
Eh i feel theirs a third valid response to the 60+ years of straight Spiderman line
"So what? comics change and retcon stuff all the time"
Like how punisher was a ww2 vet for 5 years, a Vietnam vet for 30 yrs and an iraq vet for 20 years
that legal document pisses me off so badly. "we have decided that there are circumstances where spiderman can be bad even though he is a good character through and through. but homosexuality? oh god no. not ever. no exceptions." that is some bullshit.
Why u want him to be gay so bad
@@zlvno Spiderman is a make-believe character with many different versions of peter parker. The problem is that they are willing to bend their idea of who peter parker is from everything to science nerd, to hot guy, to skate boarder, his race etc. But they draw the line at being bi or gay. Thats fucked up. Whether he kisses boys is the thing that makes them uncomfortable but they make exceptions for character traits that are not kid-friendly speaks volumes to the level of homophobia in hollywood.
@@zolmation it’s not homophobia just not every character needs to be gay spiderman was never gay from the start pretty sure those are Stan lee’s rules since he made the character Stan lee wouldn’t be proud seeing Peter kissing dudes
@zlvno when you make an exception for everything except sexuality, then yes that is homophobia.
@@zolmation I get y’all want more representation but tryna ruin already established characters with your gayness is kinda lame vouch for original gay characters instead of tryna make a already existing straight character gay if u want that so bad write a fan fic it’s just a make believe character as u said so why u so pressed over this
It's just that Spider-Man, specifically Peter Parker, is a character that is straight. Any other Spider-Man can be whatever. But thats who Peter is, and we shouldnt keep trying to change character's sexualities.
That whole "if you want spiderman to be black/a woman/gay/whatever make another character" attitude was always just a half-assed shutdown because of the often-unspoken part: "so I can ignore them". Like, writers WILL do exactly that-introduce a new character with a legacy hero's title-and then they'll get shat on or ignored by fans and writers. Even heroes that are _explicitly_ a legacy that gets passed along catch flack if they deviate from the archetype, like the Flash/Kid Flash. Miles and Gwen as Spiderpeople are some of the few examples of a deviation that gained wider popularity, and even then, Gwen was already an established character before she donned the mask.
Too many times it becomes clear that they don't care about "preserving the character", they just don't like the idea of centering someone that they can't """relate""" to.
@@thatdude337 That’s the best way to go though. It’s not wise to make a significant change to an already popular and established character.
@@paleospino4956 why not? It happens all the time and we get retcons left and right but when it changes a characters sexuality it's wrong? Was killing Jason Todd a bad idea because it made a significant change to a popular (well I guess he wasn't that popular, they did vote for him to die) character? What about turning him into red hood?
@@paleospino4956I mean what kind of change is significant? If characters never changed they’d be the same as their first appearance now. The ultimate universe is actually nothing like the other ones. The public absolutely can accept large changes especially in the case of “it’s a different canon”.
If we can have one universe where a character who is good is made evil, without the fans complaining about changing an important character, how is making them bi a bigger change?
People would get more upset about Peter being bi than about any of the other major changes that have been made.
If he’s not poor, if he’s alone vs in a relationship, how much he is involved with the avengers, how old he is, what level of school, people may like or dislike all these changes, but none are so major they killed the character’s popularity.
Why is sexuality so different? To me it seems pretty much inconsequential. The answer obviously being that people see those with different sexualities as fundamentally different somehow.
So I don’t think going off “how big of a change” it actually is matters
It's just an excuse for bigots to get their way in a way that can be presented as reasonable or nuanced. I think it's very similar to arguments that are along the lines of "Don't make gay characters so in your face/don't make being gay their whole personality!" Because to a LOT of people, a person being gay at all is "making being gay their whole personality", the correct amount of "subtlety" is "not gay at all".
It doesn't make sense to call out a company for not making a change when the majority of people want to release to someone who is like them, it's also easier to not doing anything.
Hobie brown has a boyfriend in the comics so I kinda hope in the next Spiderverse movie there’s some mention of that
@@Odd_Designz Oh really? What run was that in?
@paleospino4956 I'm sorry I don't know :( I don't read the comics I've just seen it talked about a lot!
His boyfriend I believe is an indigenous man who takes up the Captain America mantle or something? Idk how explicit the relationship is but I've never heard people dismiss it as noncanon !
I was a repressed bisexual until about 3 years ago. Looking back now, I definitely always was into women despite the fact I to this day have only been with men since I didn't realise until I was already dating my current boyfriend. I realised that he way I felt when I had a crush on a guy or thought a guy was hot was exactly the same as with girls. The only difference was that in my head, I was like "well that's obviously different because that's a woman. I just ADMIRE her. I want to BE her, not be WITH her" but then I realised that a lot of the feelings I had towards girls were not just a universal experience for all girls. Straight girls didn't have those same thoughts and that was really insane to me. Like, the attraction was always there, it's not that I was actively trying to push down my feelings, not conciously anyway but with my religious upbringing, I had just never thought of liking girls as an option.
I think what did it was seeing memes and stuff from other bisexual women about being bisexual and I was like "haha yeah that's so me, this is relatable... wait a goddamn minute"
The whole 'spider-man can't be gay' thing is exactly why people love the spider verse so much. because anyone can actually be behind the mask. not just straight, white cis men.
"The most popular Batman ship on AO3 is Dick Grayson with Jason Todd"
Nope, look at the "/" instead of the "&". According to your screenshot, it's Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne.
Great work. I know you draw on it a little but I was wondering in this context what being more visibly bi would entail in this context? While you bring up social issues impacting the community, I know from similar discussions that stopping with simply visibility of social problems can result in presentations that are flat and often marginalising. Off the top of my head I can imagine this as being more open to a character moving back and forth while dating? Including more options in flashbacks of the characters past boyfriends, girlfriends and partners? Engaging more with attraction in narration as something other than a joke both in story and in fandom? Engaging more with the theoretical side through allowing standards of masculinities and femininities that are attractive to be more fluid and highlighting how they can be closer together (writing a character who specifically into assigned 'masculine' traits rather than men for example on both sides of the gender dipole)?
I suspect the answer is 'all of the above' but I would be interested in anyone's ideas about how biness becomes visible distinctively in ficiton, given the earlier discussion about the way it can be flattened into a false binary of gay or straight.
Not enough bi characters talk about other people they think is hot with their partner. In fact, not enough straight characters do that either. Let characters have casual conversations with their romantic partner about how they just passed by a smoking hot dude and wanted them to know how hot he was!
@@handsoaphandsoap You’d have to convince people in real life that openly talking about how hot other people are in front of your partner isn’t cheating before we get to that.
@@frankieloinandgroin In no universe is that cheating. If you have a partner that you can't have a frank and honest conversation with about physical attraction then you are likely in a toxic relationship.
@@handsoaphandsoap not many people do this true. Some people don't want to hear it either so. Some people just don't find other hot while they are ina relationship and others just find someone attractive and move on. Kinda weird convo that could only work if both people are bi tho no?
Peter should be allowed to date/have romances/flirt with Harry, Flash, Eddie Brock, just like he already does with Mary Jane, Gwen, and Felicia Hardy. Imagine the possibilities for new storylines, dramas, and adventures overall
Iv always liked the idea of Peter flirting with flash SPECIFICALLY because flash can't think of insults when he's flustred
For exampel
Flash: oi parker
Peter: hey hotstuff, you been working out more then normal?
Flash:* red* i- you- wha? Nevermind!!
Peter: hah.
Harry: why do you pretend to flirt with him?
Peter: pretend?
@@COOLERthenU Harry: Why do you pretend to flirt with him? Peter: Why do you care? Are you jealous?
Harry: *flustered* No!
@@Ammy-q4w you, you understand!