F-5E vs MiG-21 - Their First Clash, Ogaden War 1977
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- In July 1977, Somalia launched a war against Ethiopia with the objective of taking control of the Ogaden region. With superior ground forces, they made big advances. But Ethiopians had one strong card to play - their air force. Trained by the USA and equipped mostly with various versions of F-5, their pilots would prove crucial in the outcome of the war. But Somalis begin with a couple of victories. Their ground troops shoot down an F-5A while their MiG-17s shoot down an C-47 transport aircraft. Ethiopians now start to fly regular Combat Air Patrols with their F-5Es and sure enough, two of them are guided by a ground radar against a pair of Somali MiG-21s. This will be the first time in history that these two popular light fighter aircraft confront each other in battle.
Source: Tom Cooper - Wings over Ogaden: The Ethiopian-Somali War, 1978-1979 (Africa@War Book 18)
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Fun Fact: The Soviet manage to acquire an F-5 from Vietnam they did a mock aerial combat with the mig-21bis and mig-23 flown by some of the best soviet test pilots and the F-5 won every engagement it also influenced the cockpit layout of the Su-25 and Mig-29 and it also influenced the Aerodynamics of the Su-27.
I knew they tested them and found them effective in combat. Didn't know about the influence on future Russian designs.
@@showtime112 Makes sense I guess. Soviet designs were not known for great ergonomics. So when one of their top guys straps into an F5 and goes 'oooh, oh this is much better! This makes things easier on a pilot and therefor more effective!' I think the designers are going to take note of that.
The Somali's really shouldn't have been in the air, the lack even the most basic fighter pilot ability, seems they were lucky just to take off, fly a mission and return safely to land.
It's a classic example in which a leadership dramatically overestimated abilities of their own forces and underestimated those of the enemy.
In every sense the Somalis where winning, but the russian planes and their training which was obviously poor was what lead to the losses of the SAC, but when decisions are made by power hungry literally ex fascist foot soldiers like Siad Barre any faults in the plan are ignored.
The Somali supported rebels already controlled the region and then did so again after the 77 war in the late 80s
@@dh.k363 The Somali army crushed the Ethiopian army only got saved by Cuba and Soviet the only cancer Somali have is its own ignorent population.
You do a great job at exposing these lesser known aerial battles and shedding some light on this part of military aviation history! Your channel is growing fast and I hope it keeps on going! Great job man, keep up the great work!
100% agree! I love how he just give the facts regardless of who’s feelings get hurt
I sure will, thank you for watching and giving a positive feedback!
Thanks. Many get hurt but that's primarily their problem 😁
Wow! You do come up with some less known ariel engagements. Wonderful stuff. 👌
I'm a sucker for obscure 20th century conflicts 😁 Thanks for commenting!
Yesssss I've been waiting for you to do this! The Ethiopians did really well in this air war, especially ace Tefera Legesse. The Somalis lost air superiority because of this which cost them the war.
12,000 Cuban, 1,500 Soviet, and a number of East German intelligence, artillery, and rocket troops made a not-insignificant contribution to Ethiopian victory as well.
@@patrickcloutier6801 Yes of course they helped on the ground but it was the Ethiopian aviators themselves who virtually wiped out the entire Somali air corps - exposing the Somali ground forces to aerial attack against which they could not reply.
That's absolutely true. Somali ground troops suffered greatly from constant Ethiopian Air Force attack from which their own air force couldn't protect them. They were especially effective against the supply lines and performed several daring airfield raids too.
But why fight for land that belongs to Somalia 🇸🇴 Ethiopia wants the whole of Somalia
@@daviroza4700 It belongs to Ethiopia wariya. Maybe try keep Hargeisa under control first.
Well done again! Always a pleasure viewing your aviation history lessons. Keep up the great work, the channel is growing as it should!
Thank you for your support, keep watching!
My god, DCS is looking so good these days. From the cockpit I don’t notice so much but in recordings like this the improvement over the last year or so really stands out. Also, really interesting story.
Thanks for the comment! 2.7 was definitely a major improvement and the Syria map is the best one. If they only fixed the replay track.........
Awesome video. The Ogaden War is largely forgotten now, but it was a fierce conflict back then.
Thanks a lot! It sure was fierce and costly to both sides.
Wonderful seeing a little jet shoot down a kind of a fat pig. I know they make 21 is kind of a hot jet, but Northrup got it right with a little light weight fighter and it will kick ass on the Mig 21 or it’s big brother, the F4 Phantom in close combat, where in fact at this time, that’s where virtually all combat occurred. Big jets are big targets, it’s that simple. Given an equal number of F-16s versus the much bigger F 15, and F-16s will kick their ass. It’s David and goliath.
@@steveperreira5850 the F-5 also ran circles around the MiG 23, not just me, when the Soviets tested one captured from the now defunct South Vietnam. They were really impressed by it's handling and agility.
And the above reason is why the F5 and the A4 Skyhawk are still relevant as aggressor aircraft in the West.
Forgotten by you westerners but never by us my Grand Father died Capturing the Ethiopian Air Defence Radar at Karamardha allowing the SNA to move on DireDawa.
Ethiopia should change their trinity to include father russia and the virgin cuba 😭
@@dh.k363 father Russia and virgin Cuba 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
The F-5 twin engined fighter was/is a pretty potent little airplane. It isn't stealthy and old be out maneuvered by many of today's newer, more agile fighters but what if....what if the F-5 were given the kind of upgrades, new wing design, new stableziser(s), upgraded avionics, etc! It could be a helll of a good air superior fighter even in today's skies!
That was the F-20 Tigershark. But it never entered production. As I understand it, it would have competed with F-16 so it never received proper support.
The F-20 Tigershark design, which was an F5 on steroids, influenced the creation of the F/A-18 Hornet.
Nice job, man! Another awesome historical enactment. Especially interesting to me because I’m trying to decide which module should I buy next F-5 or MiG-21
Thanls! You won't go wrong with either of them. F-5 is generally easier to fly, land and such. MiG is a bit harder but it's an interesting challenge.
Love these re-enactments and learning about these battles, great channel and interesting work!
Thank you very much for your positive feedback, it's very helpful to the channel!
Love this duels when MiG-21 participating. Great music also!
It participated in a lot of duels 😁 Thanks for the comment!
Most of this pilots (Somali) haven't even a bicycle before this. And then flying' a MiG 21. 🤣🤣
Talk about a steep learning curve 😁
Fun fact: Somali pilots weren't allowed to be equipped with parachutes
A very interesting fact in the "Ogaden War"....................was the "First Combat" of the legendary Mi-24!!!!
The war is really interesting for many factors. Sadly, there doesn't seem to be many details about the Mi-24 use. At least as far as I can see.
@@showtime112 I read two things. the Mi-24 were the "A" model with cuban pilots..
Nice history!!! That must have taken some time!!! Thanks!
Thank you so much for commenting again! The research took a while. Recording actually went rather smooth and DCS replay track was behaving this time 😁
It seems like whenever US-built fighters encountered Soviet-built fighters in one of these Cold War era conflicts between third-party countries, the American planes came out on top. Was it just a coincidence due to better training, or were the US designs actually so much better?
Not always, for example in the 1971 Indo-Pakistani War, MiG-21 defeated F-104 in several battles. But generally speaking, Americans seem to have provided much better training to their allies than the Soviets. In this particular case, it is especially true.
Maybe the Soviets knew the Somalis couldn't handle much more anyway. Have you seen the state of there country nowadays?? Good lord. Primitive.
This change of an alliance was relatively rare in the Cold War but not entirely unusual. There's info that Soviets were trying to ally themselves with Iran after the Revolution and cut their relationship with Iraq. But the Iranians were apparently not interested.
24. Srpanj 77. Rodio sam se dan ranije, 23. Dok je MiG-21 naveliko ratovao
Another great video! I was today's year old when I learned about this particular conflict. Keep up the good work.
Thank you, I appreciate your support!
As usual, keep on the good work! Sretan Božič :)
Thank you very much!
What an interesting story! Thanks for making this
Thanks for watching!
Man, when I think how many beautiful airplanes got destroyed..! I wish they all teamed-up and participated in an airshow instead. 😥🤭
Great video, man! (As always.)
If I had a PC powerfull enough, I'd buy these two modules and a Hornet - and that would be it! 😁
Alternatively, they could be used to found hundreds of aviation museums everywhere so everybody could see them.
And if you think that you could just stop at only three modules, you are very much mistaken 🤣
@@showtime112 Yeah, you're probably right, but for now I can't afford neither. And from St.Nick I didn't even get a bag of coal! 😥😉🤣 So, yeah...
Airplanes? How about all the lives lost? 🤦♂️
You mean, from the beginning of the humankind?... Or just some particular period? 🤦🏻♂️ I hope you get payed for trolling, otherwise it's just a waste of time. 😓
@@PappaBear_yt From the time of homo habilis , or about 2.4 million years ago. But yeah , those planes are pretty though. (Funny you felt you were being trolled simply because I mentioned loss of life) 😂 HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Silly snowflake
Wow ogaden war, never heard of it thanks for recreating a less known conflict
Merry Christmas ☃️🎄🎅❤️!
It's very obscure but also very interesting. Thanks for commenting!
An underrated war. Nice rendition!
Thank you very much!
this dogfigth with f-5 vs mig,-21. real air combat in horn of africa.
h
That's right.
Alright! A Christmas present in my RUclips stocking!
Ho ho ho! 😁
It,'s so beautiful air dog fight
Thank you for the feedback!
Yay! I have been waiting for this one! Thanks for doing it!!!
Thanks, glad you liked it! There's good info to make a few more videos about this conflict sometime in the future.
There is indeed. It is a short conflict, but very interesting!
Cheers. Am a Kenyan. Very informative documentary Sir. Cheers
Thank you for your comment, I'm glad you liked this content.
I think you missed adding this in the "African Conflicts" playlist. I've been watching every series and eras you've made for the nth time😊
Hey, that's right. Thank you for reporting. And for watching :)
F-5 is far more better than MiG-21, that's why they produce the Flogger.
As Somali Poor Management military personnel training and Planning cost us Losing the war.
Nice video,thanks
Thank you for watching!
Isn't that the mig 28 😅😅😅
Yea, that is one of its aliases :)
Although I have known about this war for many years, up until seeing this video I have never seen any details on this conflict let alone scores of individual pilots.
Thanks for commenting! Details of the war are generally not well know. There are stories about Israeli mercenaries and so on. But they don't seem to be true, once you dig deep into it.
F-5 is so beautiful
Yup, it's like a 60s sports car.
Great vídeo again, it's really good to know about this less knowed air actions in that forgoten wars, great work.
I appreciate this positive feedback!
Wele xarood waa lawasay cagdheer sidee dareemi hooydin nacal kyaal xarood wasa
Trying to catch up on the back catalogue of this excellent channel.
Thanks for that, hope you like that content too!
Bravo...Great vid mate. All the best for 2022.
Thanks! I also wish you a great year!
Ethiopia air forces who play big roles
So much for Marxists brotherhood. Two Marxist countries going at it, only one of them had previous American training. Then of course the failed Marxist dogma killed (as it always does) something like a million Ethiopians from starvation in the 1980's not that long after they took over from their monarchy.
The Ethiopian Junta/Derg was not originally communist, but it gave in rather to marxist student demands dating from the Emperor's era.
@@SelfRaisingWheat makes sense. It’s happening in my country now.
Hate has no respect for colour or creed.
Everybody who was alive in the 80s remembers the great famine in Ethiopia. Live Aid and everything else.
@@showtime112 And now Mengistu, who is responsible for all this, is enjoying fat plates of food in Harare Zimbabwe.
The thing about the Cold War many of the combatants nations fight each other were divide by ethnicity rather than Communist ideology, Somali Ethiopia war, Cambodian Vietnam war and the Chinese Vietnamese conflicts wars, guess nationality is important more than political believe, many of the people did not understand Communist believe meaning either.
That is certainly true.
In fact, my Western friend, the communist ideology is very simple to understand by anyone regardless of ethnisity or nation, or even level of education. The basic idea is that there should be no exploitation of one human being by another human being. That is all. This is why this idea experienced such a broad and quick success almost everywhere where western propaganda had limited access back then.
However, in the West, the level of intelligence of an ordinary citizen is so low and/or damaged by propaganda, that even such a simple idea seems to be extremely hard to acquire.
@@DenisPetrov1980 the ideology of Communist is feudalism, but far worse in its destruction of lives and human development, there class exploration of people by the Communist elites, just look on Stalin, Mao, Kim Jong- un and the Castro brothers lifestyle they rule there people like serfs, funny how 90% of U.S.S.R technology comes for the Western nations Companies even the MIG 15 engine is Rolls Royce Nece copy the British Government licence to the Soviet, the Soviet K-13 missile is American AIM 9 copy they will have to pay for on there balance of trade bill. The Gorky Automotive Plant was very profitable for the Ford families, a lot of Soviet and other Communist Nations resources and wealth was give to Western elites families freely by the Communist overlords for little or nothing, the late Fidel Castro said in the 1980s to a Washington Banker Bill Rhodes he made a mistake putting Che Guevara encharge of Cuban economic and chasing out the IMF, the World Bank and Inter American Development Bank they could have help the Cuban economic problems, Fidel Castro was not a Marxist in 1959, but turned to this ideology because of Eisenhower and Nixon's antagonism toward Castro, some mistake the western leadership should learn from.
@@bjornsmith9431 communism is feudalism... 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️ I do not know, how to deal with this. This is a catastrophe...
@@DenisPetrov1980 Yeah, every communist state ended in a starving population and totalitarian tyrannical government, but, I guess thats too hard to understand. Denis be like "govern me harder, daddy." 🤣
never heard about that war, never see Somalia markings before either, outstanding job as usual, great footage lovin'it , merry christmas by the way!, ( merci beaucoup et joyeux Noël)
Thanks a lot for your comment and merry Christmas to you too!
Awesome video! Happy Holidays!
Yea Glad to see this also.Merry Christmas 🎄
Thanks, happy holidays to you too!
Merry Christmas to you too!
Only Vietnam and India ( apart from the soviets ) performed well with the mig21
A few Iraqi Mig 21s got kills on various Iranian fighters too in the 80s and dont forget the Egyptian Mig 21s vs the Isrealis.. A few kills achieved there also.. But quiet a few lost aswell.
Its training and tactics. Plane without those 2 means nothing.
Because they used it correctly as an interceptor. Other countries like Somalia and the Arab countries had poor pilot training and they used it as an offensive dogfighter - bad idea.
@@265justy yeah but suffered huge loses compared to kills and yeah in Vietnam it had more loses but only by a bit and did well to prevent complete air superiority from the US.
For the Indians they achieved complete air superiority with their migs with high kills for very low loses
@@SelfRaisingWheat If you payed attention there wasn't much of dogfighting. It was who got who first.
AiM 9b? Very low kill probability target has to be basically a 1G strafe target.
Top ! Like
Thanks for the comment!
Thanks for this great work. Just want to know what kind of AIM-9? AIM-9B?
Thank you for watching! It was AIM-9B.
According to the narration, it was an "MI-9" Sidewinder. No such animal. Producer needs to pay attention to details. Its AIM-9.
@@mikearmstrong8483 That is an error and they sometimes happen, despite all the attention. English subtitles have the correct description.
the somali mig-21mf vs.ethiopian f-5e real dogfithg.
Storyteller strikes again! 👍
Thanks for commenting again! Glad you are still around.
SUUUPEEERRR😎
Thanks for commenting!
I am not a video game guy.... but I have heard Showtime make reference to whatever video game he shows for his recreations.
Why the hell wouldn't they have MIG 17 ???
DCS World is a very realistic and accurate simulator. For the official modules, at least. It takes years to develop a single module (up to ten years, in case of the F-15E that was recently released). But a studio is working on the MiG-17 and we will have it someday.
@@showtime112
Cool !!!!
The MiG-17 is nothing more than an improved MiG-15 with a thinner, larger wing, and an afterburner added to the same engine. The MiG-17 at Mach 0.89 was only marginally faster than the MiG-15, which had a top speed of Mach 0.87. The MiG-17 had the same armament as the MiG-15.
The MiG-15 is in DCS - so whenever you need a MiG-17, just use the MiG-15 instead.
It's pretty interesting yet awkward to know that the Soviets would actually be happy with me being shot down by an American plane for once.
That was a very strange war 😁
Somalia's decision to put a cadre of fresh and minimally trained pilots into their newest fighter was certainly... interesting. I guess it eliminated the need to take the more experienced MiG-17 pilots off of active duty as well.
It made sense, in a way. The MiG-17 was an air superiority fighter (dogfighter). The MiG-21 was an interceptor - designed for hit and run attacks, not air combat maneuvering (ACM). So newly trained pilots would be less inclined to use combat tactics that the MiG-21 wasn't designed for.
As they say, you get what you pay for.
good
Thanks for another comment!
Any way I could work the tower and ground for your ops? Love your videos keep it up
Hello! Thank you for offering your assistance. The 'operations' are not exactly full missions, from beginning to the end. Rather, they are filmed from small segments. Couple of reasons for that. Often, scenes need to be repeated many times until you get a desired outcome. And longer replay tracks tend to break.
But if you want to fly and play a role in some of that work, I plan to work with human pilots in the future.
You could have had the mig 15 stand in for the mig 17.
I suppose it could be done and MiG-17s were no more than targets in that large battle. But the real MiG-17 is being developed for DCS and there are some more interesting stories from the Ogaden War that could be done before that one.
Surprising that there's no Mig-17 in DCS
Not so much, Cold War era is a bit slim. But MiG-17 is being developed so we will have it.
Somalies did a really bad job, MiG21 easily out turns F5 if properly used, when Americans received their first Fishbed from Israelies and tested it against their own air frames the only fighter fully capable of out performing 21 was Phantom, and even that had a hard time doing so over Vietnam before getting their guns back, tho, the Fishbed that Americans got their hands on was also one of the earlier versions also without internal guns...
That's nonsense.
An interesting thing happened in the later phase of the war. Ethiopians and Cubans did some practice dogfights, F-5s versus MiG-21s and MiG-17s. F-5 won every time. It has proven clearly superior to both types especially at low speeds. Automatic flap system has proven to be an important factor there.
MiG 21 is an interceptor. It's not supposed to enter extended dogfight with the multirole F5, which will beat it everytime in that scenario. MiG 21 can only win if it uses hit and run intercept tactics using its superior speed. But in this war, Somali pilots were poorly trained and they tried to use the MiG 21 as an offensive fighter - it didn't work.
@@SelfRaisingWheat despite Ethiopia having air superiority Somali nearly captured Addis Ababa unless Cuba and Soviet intervent.
@@mahadljama4578that's pure bs Somalis had no chance of getting addis abeba lol yall literally invaded Ethiopia during our weakest point and backstabbed us in Civil War on every corner of Ethiopia economic and oil crises and famine but keep in mind Somalis never had the balls to do anything this large and was bowing and kissing emperor and then mengistu until the Civil War and still got annilated lol fyi the only reason somalia even survived for a second was sovit refused Ethiopia to push further in somalia because of the us and Ethiopian civil war tell me what happened in 1982 right after 1977 when ONLY 10k Ethiopians invaded Somalia and completely destroyed fifty thousand Somalis outnumbered and occupied central Somalia with very easy until sayid Barre declared state of emergency and begged the us for guns and signed peace treaty leaving claims to ogaden like a cowerd 🤣we could of captured Mogadore unlike yall we didn't run away we walked out of Somalia making your leader vow his head with only 10k Ethiopians and imagine if Ethiopia invaded during emperor halie Selassie or before the civil war if 10k Ethiopians shakedown the whole somalia around central somalia 🤣
Mig 28 vs Mig 21!! 😂
Yup, except that the skin of the MiG-28 is wrong 😁
Remember Somalia started the war they knew Ethiopians are nothing but Russia Cuba and USA helped u otherwise Somali could have colonized you😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Ethiopia.Eritrea War 1998.............Su-27 Vs MiG-29..................no more words!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, it will certainly be done someday 😁
When you want to tell stories, you do it the way you want.
But when it's history, you have to be careful, accurate, and revised.
Who was training the pilotos of both sides⁉ What ranks was the training officers 🤔
How many flight hours was minimum for Somali fighter pilot 🤔
Look at the history before going wield on the design
Right
Yes we were shit in airpower but still the Ethiopians were running away and Somalia was 700km inside Ethiopia thanks to Cuba and Soviet for rescuing.😆😆😆😆😆
Air power wins wars
You lost. Keep crying 😂
Ma Somalijski piloti su krivi, ne MiG-ovi... 😆
I kako su se to MiG-ovi sudarili? 😳
Da te ne znam, rekao bih da si pažljivo slušao 😁 Što se tiče sudara, svaki je napravio zaokret na svoju stranu i onda su se našli na početku 😬
@@showtime112 a da me znas... sta bi onda rekao
@@domovinivjerni Da si pristran 😁 Ali zanimljivo je da su Etiopljani kasnije letjeli na MiG-ovima. Čak su im se i Kubanci pridružili a to je tvoj fah.
@@showtime112 pristran sam? Nemoj vrijeđat 😆
@@domovinivjerni To su samo činjenice 😁😁😁
"Victory for American design and pilot training" not appreciation for the brilliant Ethiopian pilots. What a racist assessment!
Why is that racist? Had Americans trained the Somalis and supplied them with F-5s while Ethiopians only received training from the Soviets, Somalis would have probably won the air duels.
@@showtime112 Despite them having best air power more experienced pilots older airforce and army they did not stayed and fight they run away and within three months Somalia was 700km inside Ethiopia thanks to Cuba and Soviet. 😆😆😆😆
@@mahadljama4578 Achieving a surprise often leads to initial advantages. But unless you win early, you often lose.
@Mahadl Jama oh really yall literally invaded Ethiopia during our weakest point and backstabbed us in Civil War on every corner of Ethiopia economic and oil crises and famine but keep in mind Somalis never had the balls to do anything this large and was bowing and kissing emperor and then mengistu until the Civil War and still got annilated lol fyi the only reason somalia even survived for a second was sovit refused Ethiopia to push further in somalia because of the us and Ethiopian civil war tell me what happened in 1982 right after 1977 when ONLY 10k Ethiopians invaded Somalia and completely destroyed fifty thousand Somalis outnumbered and occupied central Somalia with very easy until sayid Barre declared state of emergency and begged the us for guns and signed peace treaty leaving claims to ogaden like a cowerd 🤣unlike yall we didn't run away we walked out of Somalia making your leader vow his head with only 10k Ethiopians and imagine if Ethiopia invaded during emperor halie Selassie or before the civil war if 10k Ethiopians shakedown the whole somalia🤣 tell me what Somalis did when Ethiopians were dancing in literally central somalia ? Wait no more sovit Excuses 😂😂
Woow💣💣👌
Hvala 😁
MiG 21 vs. MiG 28
Not sure, I think MiG-28 always had black camouflage 😁
👍👍👌👏👏👏
Thanks!
Ethiopian pilots were trained to go on immediate hunger strike if captured by the enemy.
Didn't know that.
I hate Liberty Mutual.
?
@@showtime112 You tube plays the same Liberty Mutual commercial at the beginning of every video on youtube. Ive sen the same commercial 4572 times in a row. Luv the channel btw.
@@glennpham2763 I'm not sure why YT thinks that's the only add for you but apparently, it does 😁 Thanks for the comment!
so, there are white somalis? or is it just an albino somali flying the mig 21?
DCS doesn't yet offer such a level of political correctness. Maybe someday there will be a choice of various races or ethnicity in the future.
@@showtime112 LOL!!!!
It was the Russians and Cubans who defeated somalia not the Ethiopians don't just put here the few airplanes hit how many ethiopian airplanes exploded?
Yeah, right!
@@showtime112 this is literally what they are taught all Somalis lmaoo
😂😂😂