@@transportenthusiast11 The quality of individual units is quite variable. The other day the one I got had a perfectly smooth ride and wasn't rattly, but the time before it wasn't great
@@grassytramtracks Hence why I generally don't like them. Too many of them are poor quality, and the seats are always bad. Luckily I never travel with GWR and the furthest I travel with LNER is Leeds so I can just book an IC225.
I once went to a CPD talk by a chap who designed coach interiors for BR (with the “16 bums per ton” rule!). He said in terms of customer satisfaction that the main interface with passengers is the seat. The 800s fail on this, even in first class which still has the usual hard seats of modern stock, slightly less than the standard class torture racks.
This lines up with what I thought of the LNER ones. Best 800 experience I had was on a Lumo, probably because of the seats being a bit better and not very crowded because they had just started service. Hopefully the'll upgrade the seats a bit on them cause they are probably going to be around for a while and the HST's are just getting too old, though I loved seeing them.
And not forgetting Avanti West Coast who have ordered the Class 805 and Class 807 AT300s (with the Class 805 Bi-Mode to replace the Class 221 Voyagers and cascaded to Crosscountry or to be stored) and East Midlands Railway have also ordered the Aurora Class 810 to replace the Class 222 Meridian and Class 180 Adelante.
Most of the complaints I have read are about seats, or a slight lack of power on grades or high speeds. One thing to note, Avanti West Coast will have significantly more trains when the 805s and 807s arrive, not less. They currently have 20 five-car 221 units, which will be replaced by 13 five-car 805 units and 10 seven-car 807 units for a total of 23 units, all of which will be longer than the current trains. I think the misconception comes from the idea they will replace Pendolinos outright, which is not true.
If I remember correctly, the 807s won’t operate on the North Wales lines, meaning the number of sets available for those routes will be reduced, sorry I should have clarified. I suppose the question is are there more than 7 voyagers operating entirely under the wires on any given day.
@@GWVillager According to Wikipedia many of the Voyagers run services to Scotland as double sets (I couldn't easily find how many). As far as I understand it, the plan is to use the 805s on the 221 services that did go to North Wales, and the 807s used on WCML services (especially stoppers) south of Preston, including some new services. These will stay south of Preston to minimize the effect of non-tilting running, while a few 390s will be displaced to run the services formerly operated by double 221s to Scotland (most likely 9-car). The 807s will be shorter than the 9-car 390s by a car and a half, but that will allow them to stop at some stations with shorter platforms. The 805s will also be around half a car longer than the 221s and have significantly more capacity. Wikipedia figures put 256 seats per single and 512 per double Voyager set; 300 seats per single and 600 per double 805 set; 453 seats per 807 unit; 469 seats per 9-car Pendolino; and 589 seats per 11-car Pendolino. A double 805 set would be slightly shorter than and have slightly more seats than an 11-car Pendolino set. No idea if they will run any double 805 sets in service.
@@andrewreynolds4949 It seems likely there will be double working of 805s given how commonly the 221s work in multiple on the North Wales line. From my experience virtually all Euston-Birmingham/Scotland services with Voyagers are doubled up, but as for how many sets operate these a day I don't know exactly. A brief look on Realtime Trains indicates that it's likely more than seven, so perhaps overall availability on the North Welsh routes will increase. As far as I know the main services that operate exclusively South of Preston are the Birmingham, Manchester and of course Preston services themselves, which are primarily Pendolino operated. It would make sense for the 807s to run Birmingham and perhaps Preston services, maybe the Blackpool North trains as well? I can't see them running to Manchester though.
@@GWVillager There is a major rewrite of the WCML timetable planned (I believe in December) which will completely change a number of service patterns. I saw a rough diagram a while back but I don't remember where it was. There was a decent amount of talk of the 807s on Liverpool services at least, because there was another major station in the area where a stop would be added that wasn't possible with the Pendolinos.
On the Avanti trains - the big improvements of the IET over the SuperVoyager are (1) non-tilting so doesn't have a squashed passenger cabin, (b) electric mode means that for the vast majority of the time they will be quieter and smoother - only between Crewe and Chester/Caergybi that they will use diesel mode - and better for the local air quality along the rest of the route, (iii) quicker acceleration is likely to offset the reduced top speed on sections where there is a higher linespeed with tilt, (D) cheaper to operate and more environmentally friendly, and (five) it isn't a Voyager, that alone should be sufficient for it to be counted as an improvement!
A cynical view might be that were designed by a committee. However, they are a step in the right direction. I haven’t had much experience of them yet, and historically I was used to the HSTs and their Mk3 carriages, over their whole service life, so that affects my point of view. It seemed to me that if you have the opportunity to choose which car to travel in on non-electrified routes, it’s best to avoid the ones with underfloor engines. There are, of course, some units on the LNER that do not have them (except one for short moves off route, I think). I travelled in a couple of them through the Severn Tunnel before they energised the overhead contact rail (OCR). I guess most of them now do not use the engines through there. Only a minor comment: If possible, minimise the use of “panning”, except for special effects. Holding it as steady as possible, and switching from cut to cut to cut etc, a bit like normal eyesight, is easier to watch. Most broadcast output is a bit like that.
In my experience, the diesel engines aren't really that loud at all, arguably quieter than the trains when on electric. I presume that they do run on electric through the Severn Tunnel now, seen as pure-electric 387s travel through it quite frequently. Thank you for the camera recommendations, I'll try and improve!
As in, run them on the diagrams in which 221s run entirely under the wires and then leave the 221s on the North Wales lines? That's a possibility but would involve complicated maintenance procedures. I quite like the early 2010s idea (how practical it was is a different matter!) of adding a pantograph to the 221s to allow them to run bi mode. Then there'd be no need for the 805/807s in the first place, and you'd have tilting bi modal trains too.
@@GWVillager Yes, I didn't think about the North Wales Coastline! I think I like the 2010s idea more than the 805s. I think, if they WERE to do that, the 805s would go to EMR and the 807s would go to Cross-country or GWR.
The trains could be really really really good with a few minor changes. Wouldn’t cost much, but doubt the dft would be up for it. 1: replace the seats 2: remove the terrible bike rack cupboards and instead install fold down seats for short hopper journeys. 3: take away some of the seats in the main cabin to allocate for bikes. Then we would have a very very good train. 3:
Yeah I completely agree. They’re otherwise great trains but a few minor alterations as you mentioned would help a lot. Even if entirely new seats would be too expensive, new seat moquettes would at least enhance the travelling environment.
@@GWVillager personally if they are going to go through the effort of replacing the seat moquettes they may as well go the full hog and replace the seats as well. My (admittedly very very basic) estimations is that all seats on all (TPE, GWR, LNER, Hull) class 800 trains could be done for about £75 million. It sounds a lot but in government infastructure terms £75 million is nothing, considering a new (Extrememly basic) railway station is cerca £20 million today. It just needs a government that truly commit money, and effort to the railways. The UK (in my view) could become a great public transport nation. We are a rich nation and there is nothing other than political will (and the treasury) to stop us having a railway network as good as the German's have it. Trams in all cities over 400,000, Proper metros in cities over 500,000 and HS2 and NPR and maybe even extend HS2 to Scotland to offer circa 2h London to Edingburgh journey times to effectively kill the domestic arilines (climate change). Yes this would be EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE bu if we are going to prevent climate change, congestion in cities it needs to happen. Also this whole process would take at least 60 years or so. Yes its a pie in the sky idea, but one worth (in my opinion) reaching for, becuase even if we only get half the projects done, that still is a massive improvement over what we have today.
£75 million is an obvious choice given the benefits presented. I’m not sure I’m too keen on all the waste disposing of the old seats would create though. But yes, it is absolutely vital Britain improves public transport, we are lagging behind other European countries and it will start to show economically and socially if nothing is done. Fortunately, Britain’s town centres are some of the most public transport friendly centres in the world, so it wouldn’t be hard (relatively). Though the longer we postpone improvements, the harder it will become to improve in the future- many modern developments are less transport orientated.
I agree if they did at one end like they did with the kitchen and made that a bike area it would be a big improvement. The GWR fleet need a complete overhaul and proper GWR interior, new first class seats and a buffet.
there would still be the issues of ride quality, a cramped interior, lack of seats, lack of vestibule space, bad build quality and a general poor, off-the-shelf design thats not suited to service in britain
100 percent agree with the seats. They’re fast, they’re quiet and lots of legroom. All these pros but the biggest con for me is the lack of seat padding. I usually travel from Cardiff to Swansea and I’d rather stand than sit on those seats for more than 20 mins
GWR is a rebranded FGW. The Avanti West Coast IET's have more of them than the voyagers they are replacing and non tilting issue is some what fixed by the IET's accelerating faster than Voyagers and the Voyagers can not run as fast as the 390's even though they both have tilt, it is due to the amount of tilt the unit has which means that even though the IET's will be limited to 110mph unless they have changed some areas to make it so that the IET's can run up to 125mph on the West Coast in some areas.
acceleration is irrelevant on limited stop passenger trains that spend most of their time at their top speed, on express trains top speed has a larger impact on journey times than acceleration, they should have just bi-moded the voyagers
@@Trainman10715 Acceleration does matter for example when the HST were replaced with the IET's the trains were arriving at the stations between 2 & 5 minutes before they wer meant to just becuase the IET's could accelerate faster than an HST. IET's for Avanti will also be longer than Voyagers with them being made up of 5 & 7 coach units unlike the voyagers which are 5 coach units only.
@@joshuaritchie3836 no it doesn't, not on limited stop expresses, on tube trains yes, not on trains that are doing 300 miles with 6 stops, top speed has a much bigger impact on journey times when stops are infrequent. 2 to 5 minutes is nothing, certainly not worth the enormous cost of the IETS, plus the downgrade in quality, just for 5 minutes. They won't be longer that voyagers since the voyagers ran as 10 car sets predominantly so the length won't change, the 7 car IETs are to suppliment pendolinos and will be shorter therefor
It's all a matter of taste when it comes to appearance. Haven't been on an 800 yet - might not ever - but I miss the old HST, I think it looks better than all the modern trains most of which are only different in their livery. AND best of all , the HST was British through and through. All these new trains are of foreign origin even where they are assembled in the UK. As for the quality of your video. first time? Not at all bad, perhaps your voice could be a little more lively but then, that's a matter of taste too! Well done!
Yes, buffets are very good. They are fitted to to the LNER sets, and GWR have a trolley service on all Class 800/802 workings. However, trolleys are completely inadequate compared to buffets, it’s impossible for Standard Class passengers to get a sandwich, let alone a substantial meal, from them
These trains were originally specified by the Department of Transport who decided no buffet for Great Western so they could fit more passenger seats in. GW are currently trialling an app that has the food brought to your seat. You can also blame DoT for the seats - they and LNER were forced to have the Fainsa seats. Operators like LUMO, EMR and Avanti have ordered the trains privately, so can have what they want!
Personally, they lack that 'wow' factor. I say this for the following reasons: - Anytime a HST rocked up to the station or blew past one, they surely made their presence felt with the sound and power they had. Granted the 800s have the MTU packs installed, still isn't the same! - No real visible shop or buffet, comparing to modern trains like the pendolino; they have something at least whereas the 800s haven't really nailed that aspect. - the ride comfort is appalling on the 800 as you get the odd rumble here and there along the main GWML when the train operates under diesel sometimes, HSTs on the other hand; it was not obvious the train is pulling off as the carriages were sound tight and allowed for a comfy ride. Overall, I think because the UK GOV are pushing for more of the 800s simply because of the cost effectiveness they offer, coupled with their ironing board seats. Are they truly a great replacement for the 225s and HSTs? IMHO - a big fat NO, would have rather liked to see the HST2 come to life and see the engineering capabilities of the UK as opposed to palming such contracts out abroad.
I would say they very much still have a "Wow factor" -they're quite elegant and that acceleration under electric is something else. But they don't quite have the same charm, though I tend to put that down merely to nostalgia. The HSTs were fantastic, but it was time for a replacement. Again though, I think the HST2 would have been a much better option.
@@jokera7763 Just because they can tilt, does not make them modern. The Stadtler FLIRTs are far more modern than the Pendolinos and 221s, both of which are over 20 years old, while the FLIRTs cannot tilt. The eldest Stadtler FLIRTs are 6-7 years old. Heck, the APT could tilt, the APT pioneered tilting technology in the UK in the 1980s! You cannot say a train that is 40 years old is modern, can you? That's like saying the HSTs are modern!
@@mastertrams the FLIRTs are built for a different purpose though? Granted they are more modern and have S-O-T-A tech, their design and way of build is different to that of a Pendo. Given how bendy the WCML is, it would make complete sense to replace Pendos with like for like equipment. 800s IMHO are not like for like because they are limited with not having the ability to tilt around bends. When Project Rio was happening, wasn't the WCML heavily invested into so that it can cope with tilt capability? I take into consideration that HS2 is in the pipeline, but we're talking 20 years at least till services start serving the Northern Powerhouse region.
I was on one of these yesterday going into London and was shocked to see Rust around the entire window frame on the doors. On both sides of the Carriage. Lots of bubbling of the paint where rust is pushing through. So these have maybe 2 years left and they will need all new doors.
I miss the 365 networker and the 321/317s on Great Northern :( . Nostalgia + Better seats. 319s being removed from thameslink saddened me too. Now we have these stupid ironing board 700s.
The biggest disadvantage of the 800s is the fact they’re DMUs. DMUs are great for local or regional services but for intercity services having a loco or locos is far superior for comfort. The general feel you get with 800s is that they were designed to carry as many people as possible and that’s it. The bike lockers are useless. They won’t accept a mountain bike’s wheel so I ended up having to stand with my bike for the whole journey. Another plus for power cars, as they have room for cargo like bikes. The lack of buffet/shop is criminal too. If nothing else, it gives you a good reason/reminder to get up and walk around a bit on long journeys.
There's nothing inherently wrong with MUs on long distance services, it can be done very well, see trains such as the Class 390 or German ICEs. However the 800s are really lacking, buffets ought to be provided as you say and the bike storage is dire.
Technology wise yeah these ones are better then the original HST 125s because they are much safer and smoother however, spiritually, the original HSTs were the best. They were better looking and seemed like caring queens to all of us.
I think it's unfair to compare the last refurb of the HSTs with that of the 800, the original seating in the mark 3s was far better, with lower seat backs which made the coaches very airey.
Every old train has comfortable seating, most modern trains have crappy ironing board seats such as the 387s, 700/707/717s, 195s, 701s etc. it’s a joke
I live in honeybourne and love these trains and also i go on these to london atleast once every fortnight and the reservation boards are always working
@@GWVillager nanny state at it again. These trains have fire extinguishers, suppression systems, smoke alarms, and trained staff. Not to mention they’re electric and carry much less flammable fuel than their older counterparts.
@@GWVillager the dft dose not know what they er doing because fires er rare enless you er going on a 17 or 220 form 2005 so why do they say it’s bad to have comfortable seats?
Instead of building an EMU that's more like a commuter train than an intercity train, they should have used the same design with a power car at one end and a DVT or a power car at each end and focused on making an actual successor to the HST and IC225, with more comfortable seats, even better ride quality and none of that double unit nonsense.
Nice video! Pity about the Fainsa seats on the 800's though. I can't tolerate them for more than a short while. Still I've got a comfortable car........
This is the problem: cars are getting more and more luxurious but trains seem to be going the opposite way. The fire safety regulations need to be re-evaluated, encouraging more people to use road vehicles is a very counter productive activity when trying to improve public safety - rail is many times safer overall. It is also beggars belief why an electric train with hardly any battery to speak of, let alone combustible fuel, and equipped with fire extinguishers, trained professionals and fire alarms has to have a much smaller and harder seat than a car with essentially anyone at the helm and large amounts of fuel (or flammable lithium battery in the case of an electric car) stowed in far closer proximity to the passengers than on a train.
Seats are uncomfortable for long periods. The padding is nothing. But leg room is far better on the 800s. Noise, quieter than HST in the quiet carriages. If the door window is open and corridor door opens on the HST, it's noisy and cold. But I do have the option of sticking my head out of the door window on the HST.
I've been lurking around here for several months now, I feel it's finally time to comment. I would agree with many of your points, but I would prefer comfort over nice colour schemes or bright lights. When I'm on a train I'll usually be reading a book or staring at my laptop, so the surroundings aren't such a concern. Sitting on an uncomfortable seat for any amount of time is a nightmare though. I'd also appreciate more leg room in modern trains, but that can't really be helped if they want to fit more passengers in. Another problem which I've noticed, especially while travelling on the EMR class 222s, is how woefully inadequate the air conditioning seems to be in many long distance trains
Leg room is fortunately quite good on the IETs. Though I agree with you in other regards, my opinion on them has soured recently, the seats are not aging well at all.
Honestly I feel that it would just be better if Avanti found a way to stick a pantograph on the super voyagers or the dft should ban any high speed emu or DMU from the wcml that can't tilt unless it's a railtour but because Avanti were given the choice they went with a non tilting unit because it doesn't waste diesel however with however many rolling stock manufacturers there are in the world surely one is capable of building a 125mph tilting bi-mode unit
That was an idea of the early 2010s, and a good one if it could be pulled off. However the modification required for the Voyagers to run off OLE would have been so extreme it's hard to consider it viable. However yes, I really wish more tilting train manufacturers entered the UK market, something like the SBB ETR 610 would be great for HS2 trains running north of Manchester.
@@GWVillager you're right it would be difficult to convert the voyagers for bi-mode running and yes we really do need more tilting trains in the UK but the dft probably won't allow it as tilting trains are a bit more complex and obviously more expensive but surely that would be worth it in the name of giving passengers a faster and more efficient service
Interesting to see you have essentially the same opinion as I do on the 800s. The seats are a major let down, enough that I for one don't bother to travel by rail, now that getting a LNER Intercity 225 is much more miss than hit. Other than that, they are a good replacement for the HSTs and 91s. I find the 800s handle the ruts and bumps better than the older stock and its easier to move (walk) at speed down the isles. The seats of the 800s' first class line up very badly with the windows, unlike the MK3 and MK4 coaches which had an excellent view. I can also say the refurbished Class 390 Pendolinos now emulate the 800s uncomfortable seats, especially in standard. Again, in my case it means I just don't bother travelling by rail.
The question is, would it be worth spend money refurbishing HSTs and Mark 4 sets to ironing board seats standards just to keem them running a few more years when Hitachi fleet is cheeper to maintain?
The HSTs werent going to last forever, and with the progress of electrification, it made sense for trains to be able to make use of the wires wherever possible. To Scotland, London to Abredeen and Inverness workings can now work under the wires as far as Edinbrugh/Sterling, whereas before, HSTs had to be diesel powered throughout from London. The main drawback is the seats, inevitable comparisons with the HST seats will be drawn by those who remember them. Seats in Lumo 800's are more ergonomically frendly and comfortable than the LNER and GWR ones, so this proves it is possible to improve the situation.
You see as an American I never cared about HSTs. No nostalgia because even with Bi-yearly trips to the UK, I don’t remember being on one. The IETs are fine. They are a perfectly sensible train in every respect. LNER (the operator I ride the most) has fine IETs, and the seats are fine (though I may be jaded by Republic Airways ERJ-175 economy seats).
I dare you to take a trip from Paddington to Penzance on a 8XX and not in 1st class, although it's not much better.. Your view on its suitability will change dramatically. Not only are they uncomfortable but once they leave the wires they are noisy as hell if you pick the wrong seat. As for the ride quality, like the build quality their bad. The HST had a better ride
@@thearsenalmisfit2414I take them on diesel for the section between Bath and Chippenham and don't find that being on diesel mode is that noticeable, and the ride quality of the HST wasn't really silky smooth
Aside from the seats there is also no excuse for seats with no windows which just seems lazy to copy the error from Voyagers. I’ve never travelled in First on the new trains as the seats look the same as Standard.
Keeping HSTs is amore about nostalgy and seating capacity. The thing is, government wants to get rid of loco hauled stock as available traction is or too old, problematic and too powerful to provide traction to a relatively light rake. There are exceptions when this formations are needed and charter operators come in action promoting their abilities out of special charter tours, the case of LSL Intercity.
The seats on the high speed trains were much more comfortable before the recent refurbishment. Fire regs are not the problem because the seats on the South Western 159s are far superior and are comparitavely modern builds. I'd rather take the slow run to Waterloo in comfort than the fast to Pad on a glorified bench!
The SWR 159s still use the original British Rail seats dating from the early 1990s (the design is, I believe, based on the 1970s IC70 seat, making it even older), so they're not modern by any definition!
Got a corner seat on one of GWR's 800s. There's a completely pointless protrusion from the wall there, perfectly positioned for smashing your elbow on. I smashed my elbow on it. A lot.
I found the LNER ones a bit shaky compared to the old 125's. They're a massive improvement on the 200/221/222 DMU's though. There's much more overhead storage space.
Yes, the ride quality of the 80xs appears not to be aging too well, I'm certain they don't behave as they used to at speed. Though the 125s were never amazing at that, far too squeaky for my taste! The IC 225s were much better on the ECML though. And almost anything beats a Voyager!
@@GWVillager Every time I rode an HST in Scotland I noticed how much the gangways squeaked. I wasn't sure if that was a common problem. Far more annoying to me than the 800's seats.
To be honest the lack of comfort from new fleets reflects what a minority of customers deserve after giving bad use to it. So this new seats are more suitable for resting feet during a journey for example. So why investing in more comfortable seats if they are prone to bad use and more expensive to maintain?
I hate the IETs, I will do anything to avoid riding on one! Uncomfortable, hard seats and a rough ride quality. Not to mention they are pretty much everywhere! Transpennine, LNER, Lumo, Avanti now, GWR, Hull Trains and soon EMR… They will be replacing my local 222 meridians which I have been traveling on for over 11 years. I don’t care if I have to wait an extra half hour for another train, I will avoid IETs!
Unfortunately I do not like the GWR IET's. They're a massive downgrade from the HST's to me. The seat comfort is shockingly uncomfortable the interior looks very unpleasant looking with Green and Grey as they don't go together at all there is no catering service on them at all and the First Class don't make any difference to standard class on this type of train.
Heres an idea, tbh it wont happen brcause if the DFT, but take the seats from the MK2 and MK3 carriges and stick them in the IET, we get the best of both worlds
These are more about corporate image than existing for the customer, which is a shame. As these were spawned from the "Javelin" electric train, why on earth did they not get the same seats?
is it just me that thinks only the gwr ones are bad, because i ride the lner ones alot and everything works and it is about as comfortable as other trains i ride.
Compare HST's with class 800s on electrified routes makes non sense. If compared to Mark 4 sets, that would make more sense, even on non electrified routes. The comparison is all about interior comfort and not operational performance in my point os view. HST's fleet after a refurbishment would be able to accomodate more seats than hitachi units. Meanwhile in comfort standards that would depend on what seats TOCs would provide according to new safety regulations.
The HSTs just did not have as many seats as the 800/802s and are smaller, how would refurbishment change that? It would mean reducing legroom, and/or making the seats thinner so you can squeeze more in but if comfort is an advantage of the HST over the 800/802, that advantage would be gone
in a word no...! Passenger comfort...zero!! Give me a BT10 comfort anytime...lets be honest....are they any faster...?....HST are still running after 40 years.....will Hitachi....dont think so!!
Class 800s and 802s are the worst intercity train and the seats are very uncomfortable. Honestly the InterCity125 and InterCity225 sets were so much better with comfortable seats
just want to say, based on the looks of them, even the HSTs 1st class doesn't look as comfortable as standard Amtrak coaches, Amtrak gets a lot of hate, but if there's one thing they do unequivocally right, it's comfortable seats in their coaches
Yes, Amtrak benefit from not being held back by Britain’s extremely strict fire safety regulations, and their journey times are long enough that a comfy seat is vital. Even still, Amtrak are generally pretty good at rolling stock interiors (as you say), the problem is that they have neither enough places to run them or get them up to speed.
@@GWVillager north east corridor services are really nice, I just wish the same could be said of the rest of their system :/, I live right by DC and Baltimore, but thanks to big brain transit planning, despite a Marc line having a station within about a mile of my college, for most of the day, I'd have to take 2 metro lines to Union Station and then a different Marc line to get to Baltimore
@@haxorouse3265 Poor integration is a real irritation, some places prove it can be done and when it is it's fantastic. Unfortunately that's usually not the case outside of cities, in the UK, at least.
Not been on a train for years. The last was a 165 turbo set on Chiltern back in the 90s. It seems to me that each generation of train gets smaller than the one before. Odd when we are entreated to dump the car at every opportunity. l don't see the logic. However, quite an interesting look at a modern train. Still made to carry people, as long as they don't have more than a carrier bag apiece. No space for a bicycle that you need to be eco friendly at the end of your journey either. You mention wheel chairs, but those vestibules look rather tight to me. Mind your knuckles!! Hey ho . . . . Loco and coaches for me, luggage van and a guard, lol 👍👍🤣🤣
When last Pendolino trains finish their careers, Hitachi 800 family on their own along to older brothers Javelin class 395, will be the best and the worst high speed trains running on british metals. Simple as that.
The GWR class 800's are horrible trains. Appalling seats, rough & noisy ride, noisy underfloor engines, loud whining traction motors, harsh overbright lighting, and lets not forget the structural cracking after three years service. There is a reason why so many companies are using them; they are cheap and it shows through in every aspect of the passenger experience.
The structural cracking is a shame, if only the GWML electrification was completed to Swansea and Bristol, then 801s could be used which are more resilient.
They're a great train with terrible seats. And it's a lie that is put about by people who buy terrible seats that "It's the fault of fire safety laws". It's just not true, it's just that actually comfortable compliant seats are expensive, and the penny pinchers won't cough up to do it.
I love the HST sets. I hate these class 800s. Not just for the fact they replaced the Hsts but when you get on a Hst it looks and feels pretty sturdy and well made, when you so much as look at the class 800s exterior you see some cheap rubbish. I mean the inside is littered with sliding doors everywhere, the tiolet walls look like they are made from cardboard, the seats are dreadfull. the worst thing is the engine, theres no gradual built up in accelleration, its all or nothing and pretty instantly, you feel it massively! I will never ever look on the 800 with fond memories or even love, same as those voyagers (even though the voyagers are superior to the class 800s in honesty
the 800s ... the GWR ones , as these are the only ones i have been on... seats are terrible very uncomfortable . the fire safety regs are red herring, they are just cheaper seats. The lighting is far to bright ... no buffet car ... There is on the LNER one .. but not GWR ...mmmm trolly is pointless... as most of time it's 2 x 5 cars... so you dont see the trolly.. or there are bags in the way, etc .. next .. the drone.... non stop drone !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.... all the time ... drone........................................... overall has it stopped me going on trains with my family ... from Cardiff to london .... yes.
They sound like a tractor when pulling away on diesel mode and to the point of view of a passenger who just sees them as a vehicle to get them from point a to point b they probably think that the engine sounding tractory makes it dirty, disgusting, coughing and beltchey on diesel mode
@@OnTheRailwayOfficial no they wouldnt, just look at cornwall, the 4 car HSTs recieve much better reviews than the IETs. theyre just a better rider experience, more comfortable ride, more spacious, better built. the IETs are completly unsuitable for the services they do
@@Trainman10715 you have obviously not done your research or I don’t think you have ever been in a HST. The interiors are horrible, cramped seats, dull lighting, and the windows are rubbish. Compared to the IET which has unparalleled seat legroom in standard class, much better lighting, and windows which make the cabin feel lighter and more airy. Additionally, the IETs are quicker going to their destination than their older counterparts. I’m sorry but from the view of an average commuter I can’t see why the IET wouldn’t be better?
either youre just trolling or youve never ridden on the two, obviously the seats are poor, but thats an issue with the operator, not the train. even then as far as the passengers are concerned theyre worse than the HST in every aspect apart from acceleration. modern means jack shit when it also means junk, theyre fast (in acceleration) till they break down or tear the OLE down, their maximum speed is of course the same as the HST and will be for the forseeable future. they have a smaller capacity with fewer seats per coach (by a considerable margin) than HSTs with a generally cramped and cheap interior. the HSTs werent gonna last forever, but we deserved so much better than what we got as a replacement
@@Trainman10715 your either older than 50 or you are very stupid. HSTs are loud, the luggage compartments rattled. You dont have any valid points just moaning because your favourite train is old cope more
@@profmargins you are either younger than 15 or retarded, probably both. HSTs are infact incredibly quiet, among the quietest trains on the network with an average sound level of around 57 decibels from what I measured, compared to 61 on the IET. The luggage compartments rattled? No they did not. I've infact stated several valid points, why don't you actually try to debate them? Just marching in proclaiming I have no valid points while lacking any validity yourself doesn't disprove anything. I'm not moaning I'm stating fact, theyre old? Well done, that's the only valid thing you've said and it means little, cope harder kiddo
Great vid, a seat refurbishment would really help these trains. i like these trains but the seats need to be improved a lot
+ride quality and sound proofing
@@transportenthusiast11 definitely need a suspension fix
@@transportenthusiast11 The quality of individual units is quite variable. The other day the one I got had a perfectly smooth ride and wasn't rattly, but the time before it wasn't great
@@grassytramtracks Hence why I generally don't like them. Too many of them are poor quality, and the seats are always bad. Luckily I never travel with GWR and the furthest I travel with LNER is Leeds so I can just book an IC225.
I once went to a CPD talk by a chap who designed coach interiors for BR (with the “16 bums per ton” rule!).
He said in terms of customer satisfaction that the main interface with passengers is the seat.
The 800s fail on this, even in first class which still has the usual hard seats of modern stock, slightly less than the standard class torture racks.
This lines up with what I thought of the LNER ones. Best 800 experience I had was on a Lumo, probably because of the seats being a bit better and not very crowded because they had just started service. Hopefully the'll upgrade the seats a bit on them cause they are probably going to be around for a while and the HST's are just getting too old, though I loved seeing them.
And not forgetting Avanti West Coast who have ordered the Class 805 and Class 807 AT300s (with the Class 805 Bi-Mode to replace the Class 221 Voyagers and cascaded to Crosscountry or to be stored) and East Midlands Railway have also ordered the Aurora Class 810 to replace the Class 222 Meridian and Class 180 Adelante.
Lucky thing is, EMR is having someone actually experienced with making train seats, instead of hitatchi
I live on the cotswold line and sitting on one of their 800's reminded me of when I laid down on a rock when i went on holiday
It doesn't help that the Cotswolds line is painstakingly slow.
Most of the complaints I have read are about seats, or a slight lack of power on grades or high speeds.
One thing to note, Avanti West Coast will have significantly more trains when the 805s and 807s arrive, not less. They currently have 20 five-car 221 units, which will be replaced by 13 five-car 805 units and 10 seven-car 807 units for a total of 23 units, all of which will be longer than the current trains. I think the misconception comes from the idea they will replace Pendolinos outright, which is not true.
If I remember correctly, the 807s won’t operate on the North Wales lines, meaning the number of sets available for those routes will be reduced, sorry I should have clarified. I suppose the question is are there more than 7 voyagers operating entirely under the wires on any given day.
@@GWVillager According to Wikipedia many of the Voyagers run services to Scotland as double sets (I couldn't easily find how many). As far as I understand it, the plan is to use the 805s on the 221 services that did go to North Wales, and the 807s used on WCML services (especially stoppers) south of Preston, including some new services. These will stay south of Preston to minimize the effect of non-tilting running, while a few 390s will be displaced to run the services formerly operated by double 221s to Scotland (most likely 9-car). The 807s will be shorter than the 9-car 390s by a car and a half, but that will allow them to stop at some stations with shorter platforms. The 805s will also be around half a car longer than the 221s and have significantly more capacity.
Wikipedia figures put 256 seats per single and 512 per double Voyager set;
300 seats per single and 600 per double 805 set;
453 seats per 807 unit;
469 seats per 9-car Pendolino;
and 589 seats per 11-car Pendolino.
A double 805 set would be slightly shorter than and have slightly more seats than an 11-car Pendolino set. No idea if they will run any double 805 sets in service.
@@andrewreynolds4949 It seems likely there will be double working of 805s given how commonly the 221s work in multiple on the North Wales line. From my experience virtually all Euston-Birmingham/Scotland services with Voyagers are doubled up, but as for how many sets operate these a day I don't know exactly. A brief look on Realtime Trains indicates that it's likely more than seven, so perhaps overall availability on the North Welsh routes will increase.
As far as I know the main services that operate exclusively South of Preston are the Birmingham, Manchester and of course Preston services themselves, which are primarily Pendolino operated. It would make sense for the 807s to run Birmingham and perhaps Preston services, maybe the Blackpool North trains as well? I can't see them running to Manchester though.
@@GWVillager There is a major rewrite of the WCML timetable planned (I believe in December) which will completely change a number of service patterns. I saw a rough diagram a while back but I don't remember where it was. There was a decent amount of talk of the 807s on Liverpool services at least, because there was another major station in the area where a stop would be added that wasn't possible with the Pendolinos.
and this is where a legend was born.
On the Avanti trains - the big improvements of the IET over the SuperVoyager are (1) non-tilting so doesn't have a squashed passenger cabin, (b) electric mode means that for the vast majority of the time they will be quieter and smoother - only between Crewe and Chester/Caergybi that they will use diesel mode - and better for the local air quality along the rest of the route, (iii) quicker acceleration is likely to offset the reduced top speed on sections where there is a higher linespeed with tilt, (D) cheaper to operate and more environmentally friendly, and (five) it isn't a Voyager, that alone should be sufficient for it to be counted as an improvement!
A cynical view might be that were designed by a committee. However, they are a step in the right direction. I haven’t had much experience of them yet, and historically I was used to the HSTs and their Mk3 carriages, over their whole service life, so that affects my point of view. It seemed to me that if you have the opportunity to choose which car to travel in on non-electrified routes, it’s best to avoid the ones with underfloor engines. There are, of course, some units on the LNER that do not have them (except one for short moves off route, I think). I travelled in a couple of them through the Severn Tunnel before they energised the overhead contact rail (OCR). I guess most of them now do not use the engines through there.
Only a minor comment: If possible, minimise the use of “panning”, except for special effects. Holding it as steady as possible, and switching from cut to cut to cut etc, a bit like normal eyesight, is easier to watch. Most broadcast output is a bit like that.
In my experience, the diesel engines aren't really that loud at all, arguably quieter than the trains when on electric. I presume that they do run on electric through the Severn Tunnel now, seen as pure-electric 387s travel through it quite frequently.
Thank you for the camera recommendations, I'll try and improve!
For Avanti, what they should have done is run them along side the 221s. Great video as always!
As in, run them on the diagrams in which 221s run entirely under the wires and then leave the 221s on the North Wales lines? That's a possibility but would involve complicated maintenance procedures.
I quite like the early 2010s idea (how practical it was is a different matter!) of adding a pantograph to the 221s to allow them to run bi mode. Then there'd be no need for the 805/807s in the first place, and you'd have tilting bi modal trains too.
@@GWVillager Yes, I didn't think about the North Wales Coastline! I think I like the 2010s idea more than the 805s. I think, if they WERE to do that, the 805s would go to EMR and the 807s would go to Cross-country or GWR.
@@GWVillager Didn't they used to just pull a Pendolino along the unelectrified lines with a Class 57? I like that idea more.
@@transportenthusiast11 They did, but that was quite slow.
The trains could be really really really good with a few minor changes. Wouldn’t cost much, but doubt the dft would be up for it.
1: replace the seats
2: remove the terrible bike rack cupboards and instead install fold down seats for short hopper journeys.
3: take away some of the seats in the main cabin to allocate for bikes.
Then we would have a very very good train.
3:
Yeah I completely agree. They’re otherwise great trains but a few minor alterations as you mentioned would help a lot. Even if entirely new seats would be too expensive, new seat moquettes would at least enhance the travelling environment.
@@GWVillager personally if they are going to go through the effort of replacing the seat moquettes they may as well go the full hog and replace the seats as well. My (admittedly very very basic) estimations is that all seats on all (TPE, GWR, LNER, Hull) class 800 trains could be done for about £75 million. It sounds a lot but in government infastructure terms £75 million is nothing, considering a new (Extrememly basic) railway station is cerca £20 million today. It just needs a government that truly commit money, and effort to the railways.
The UK (in my view) could become a great public transport nation. We are a rich nation and there is nothing other than political will (and the treasury) to stop us having a railway network as good as the German's have it.
Trams in all cities over 400,000, Proper metros in cities over 500,000 and HS2 and NPR and maybe even extend HS2 to Scotland to offer circa 2h London to Edingburgh journey times to effectively kill the domestic arilines (climate change). Yes this would be EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE bu if we are going to prevent climate change, congestion in cities it needs to happen. Also this whole process would take at least 60 years or so. Yes its a pie in the sky idea, but one worth (in my opinion) reaching for, becuase even if we only get half the projects done, that still is a massive improvement over what we have today.
£75 million is an obvious choice given the benefits presented. I’m not sure I’m too keen on all the waste disposing of the old seats would create though. But yes, it is absolutely vital Britain improves public transport, we are lagging behind other European countries and it will start to show economically and socially if nothing is done. Fortunately, Britain’s town centres are some of the most public transport friendly centres in the world, so it wouldn’t be hard (relatively). Though the longer we postpone improvements, the harder it will become to improve in the future- many modern developments are less transport orientated.
I agree if they did at one end like they did with the kitchen and made that a bike area it would be a big improvement. The GWR fleet need a complete overhaul and proper GWR interior, new first class seats and a buffet.
there would still be the issues of ride quality, a cramped interior, lack of seats, lack of vestibule space, bad build quality and a general poor, off-the-shelf design thats not suited to service in britain
8:30 don’t forget that GWR is still owned by First. The franchise holder hasn’t changed, just the branding.
Yes, but their internal design choices have changed.
100 percent agree with the seats. They’re fast, they’re quiet and lots of legroom. All these pros but the biggest con for me is the lack of seat padding. I usually travel from Cardiff to Swansea and I’d rather stand than sit on those seats for more than 20 mins
GWR is a rebranded FGW. The Avanti West Coast IET's have more of them than the voyagers they are replacing and non tilting issue is some what fixed by the IET's accelerating faster than Voyagers and the Voyagers can not run as fast as the 390's even though they both have tilt, it is due to the amount of tilt the unit has which means that even though the IET's will be limited to 110mph unless they have changed some areas to make it so that the IET's can run up to 125mph on the West Coast in some areas.
acceleration is irrelevant on limited stop passenger trains that spend most of their time at their top speed, on express trains top speed has a larger impact on journey times than acceleration, they should have just bi-moded the voyagers
@@Trainman10715 Acceleration does matter for example when the HST were replaced with the IET's the trains were arriving at the stations between 2 & 5 minutes before they wer meant to just becuase the IET's could accelerate faster than an HST. IET's for Avanti will also be longer than Voyagers with them being made up of 5 & 7 coach units unlike the voyagers which are 5 coach units only.
@@joshuaritchie3836 no it doesn't, not on limited stop expresses, on tube trains yes, not on trains that are doing 300 miles with 6 stops, top speed has a much bigger impact on journey times when stops are infrequent. 2 to 5 minutes is nothing, certainly not worth the enormous cost of the IETS, plus the downgrade in quality, just for 5 minutes. They won't be longer that voyagers since the voyagers ran as 10 car sets predominantly so the length won't change, the 7 car IETs are to suppliment pendolinos and will be shorter therefor
@@Trainman10715 that is 2 to 5 minutes per stop.
@@Trainman10715 The 800's will also increase capacity when compared to the voyagers.
It's all a matter of taste when it comes to appearance. Haven't been on an 800 yet - might not ever - but I miss the old HST, I think it looks better than all the modern trains most of which are only different in their livery. AND best of all , the HST was British through and through. All these new trains are of foreign origin even where they are assembled in the UK. As for the quality of your video. first time? Not at all bad, perhaps your voice could be a little more lively but then, that's a matter of taste too! Well done!
First great western is gwr, so i'd expect what we have as the gwr IETs would be much the same as what FGW would have offered
And Hull Trains is probably fairly indicative of what a FGW class 800 would look like
There's one thing I wish these sets had is a Dining/Buffet car. That or even a cart that comes along.
Yes, buffets are very good. They are fitted to to the LNER sets, and GWR have a trolley service on all Class 800/802 workings. However, trolleys are completely inadequate compared to buffets, it’s impossible for Standard Class passengers to get a sandwich, let alone a substantial meal, from them
GWR first class is a ripoff, at least LNER provides a full meal service. GWR don't even have complimentary booze, let alone any hot food!
These trains were originally specified by the Department of Transport who decided no buffet for Great Western so they could fit more passenger seats in. GW are currently trialling an app that has the food brought to your seat. You can also blame DoT for the seats - they and LNER were forced to have the Fainsa seats. Operators like LUMO, EMR and Avanti have ordered the trains privately, so can have what they want!
Personally, they lack that 'wow' factor. I say this for the following reasons:
- Anytime a HST rocked up to the station or blew past one, they surely made their presence felt with the sound and power they had. Granted the 800s have the MTU packs installed, still isn't the same!
- No real visible shop or buffet, comparing to modern trains like the pendolino; they have something at least whereas the 800s haven't really nailed that aspect.
- the ride comfort is appalling on the 800 as you get the odd rumble here and there along the main GWML when the train operates under diesel sometimes, HSTs on the other hand; it was not obvious the train is pulling off as the carriages were sound tight and allowed for a comfy ride.
Overall, I think because the UK GOV are pushing for more of the 800s simply because of the cost effectiveness they offer, coupled with their ironing board seats. Are they truly a great replacement for the 225s and HSTs? IMHO - a big fat NO, would have rather liked to see the HST2 come to life and see the engineering capabilities of the UK as opposed to palming such contracts out abroad.
I would say they very much still have a "Wow factor" -they're quite elegant and that acceleration under electric is something else. But they don't quite have the same charm, though I tend to put that down merely to nostalgia. The HSTs were fantastic, but it was time for a replacement. Again though, I think the HST2 would have been a much better option.
I'm sorry, did you just say the Pendolinos are modern trains? They're 20 years old!
@@mastertrams yes they are, err which other train is capable to tilt on the UK railways aside of c221s?
@@jokera7763 Just because they can tilt, does not make them modern. The Stadtler FLIRTs are far more modern than the Pendolinos and 221s, both of which are over 20 years old, while the FLIRTs cannot tilt. The eldest Stadtler FLIRTs are 6-7 years old.
Heck, the APT could tilt, the APT pioneered tilting technology in the UK in the 1980s! You cannot say a train that is 40 years old is modern, can you? That's like saying the HSTs are modern!
@@mastertrams the FLIRTs are built for a different purpose though? Granted they are more modern and have S-O-T-A tech, their design and way of build is different to that of a Pendo. Given how bendy the WCML is, it would make complete sense to replace Pendos with like for like equipment. 800s IMHO are not like for like because they are limited with not having the ability to tilt around bends. When Project Rio was happening, wasn't the WCML heavily invested into so that it can cope with tilt capability?
I take into consideration that HS2 is in the pipeline, but we're talking 20 years at least till services start serving the Northern Powerhouse region.
In my experience, there's nothing wrong with the Class 800's but, Good God - the SEATS!!!
You'd find more comfort sitting on the floor!!!
I was on one of these yesterday going into London and was shocked to see Rust around the entire window frame on the doors. On both sides of the Carriage. Lots of bubbling of the paint where rust is pushing through. So these have maybe 2 years left and they will need all new doors.
Great video… you also have a great voice for commentating 😊
I miss the 365 networker and the 321/317s on Great Northern :( . Nostalgia + Better seats. 319s being removed from thameslink saddened me too. Now we have these stupid ironing board 700s.
Yep, I want them to be replaced with new seats too.
@@Nathanstrains """fantastic"""
The biggest disadvantage of the 800s is the fact they’re DMUs. DMUs are great for local or regional services but for intercity services having a loco or locos is far superior for comfort. The general feel you get with 800s is that they were designed to carry as many people as possible and that’s it.
The bike lockers are useless. They won’t accept a mountain bike’s wheel so I ended up having to stand with my bike for the whole journey. Another plus for power cars, as they have room for cargo like bikes.
The lack of buffet/shop is criminal too. If nothing else, it gives you a good reason/reminder to get up and walk around a bit on long journeys.
There's nothing inherently wrong with MUs on long distance services, it can be done very well, see trains such as the Class 390 or German ICEs. However the 800s are really lacking, buffets ought to be provided as you say and the bike storage is dire.
wait this is the first video? Holy, that was some amazing editing for a first vid.
Thank you very much!
Technology wise yeah these ones are better then the original HST 125s because they are much safer and smoother however, spiritually, the original HSTs were the best. They were better looking and seemed like caring queens to all of us.
I think it's unfair to compare the last refurb of the HSTs with that of the 800, the original seating in the mark 3s was far better, with lower seat backs which made the coaches very airey.
Every old train has comfortable seating, most modern trains have crappy ironing board seats such as the 387s, 700/707/717s, 195s, 701s etc. it’s a joke
I live in honeybourne and love these trains and also i go on these to london atleast once every fortnight and the reservation boards are always working
Hard seats that protect passengers from fire so well that they go by car instead. The same approach to safety is used in Australia.
What's with the Starsi "we have ways of making you talk" lighting, the seats and rattles prevent relaxation anyway.
Why do the regulations say sests cant be too comfertable?
It's for fire safety - too deep seat cushions increase fire risk.
@@GWVillager nanny state at it again. These trains have fire extinguishers, suppression systems, smoke alarms, and trained staff. Not to mention they’re electric and carry much less flammable fuel than their older counterparts.
@@GWVillager the dft dose not know what they er doing because fires er rare enless you er going on a 17 or 220 form 2005 so why do they say it’s bad to have comfortable seats?
Instead of building an EMU that's more like a commuter train than an intercity train, they should have used the same design with a power car at one end and a DVT or a power car at each end and focused on making an actual successor to the HST and IC225, with more comfortable seats, even better ride quality and none of that double unit nonsense.
Nice video! Pity about the Fainsa seats on the 800's though. I can't tolerate them for more than a short while. Still I've got a comfortable car........
This is the problem: cars are getting more and more luxurious but trains seem to be going the opposite way. The fire safety regulations need to be re-evaluated, encouraging more people to use road vehicles is a very counter productive activity when trying to improve public safety - rail is many times safer overall.
It is also beggars belief why an electric train with hardly any battery to speak of, let alone combustible fuel, and equipped with fire extinguishers, trained professionals and fire alarms has to have a much smaller and harder seat than a car with essentially anyone at the helm and large amounts of fuel (or flammable lithium battery in the case of an electric car) stowed in far closer proximity to the passengers than on a train.
Seats are uncomfortable for long periods. The padding is nothing. But leg room is far better on the 800s.
Noise, quieter than HST in the quiet carriages. If the door window is open and corridor door opens on the HST, it's noisy and cold. But I do have the option of sticking my head out of the door window on the HST.
I've been lurking around here for several months now, I feel it's finally time to comment. I would agree with many of your points, but I would prefer comfort over nice colour schemes or bright lights. When I'm on a train I'll usually be reading a book or staring at my laptop, so the surroundings aren't such a concern. Sitting on an uncomfortable seat for any amount of time is a nightmare though. I'd also appreciate more leg room in modern trains, but that can't really be helped if they want to fit more passengers in. Another problem which I've noticed, especially while travelling on the EMR class 222s, is how woefully inadequate the air conditioning seems to be in many long distance trains
Leg room is fortunately quite good on the IETs. Though I agree with you in other regards, my opinion on them has soured recently, the seats are not aging well at all.
Honestly I feel that it would just be better if Avanti found a way to stick a pantograph on the super voyagers or the dft should ban any high speed emu or DMU from the wcml that can't tilt unless it's a railtour but because Avanti were given the choice they went with a non tilting unit because it doesn't waste diesel however with however many rolling stock manufacturers there are in the world surely one is capable of building a 125mph tilting bi-mode unit
That was an idea of the early 2010s, and a good one if it could be pulled off. However the modification required for the Voyagers to run off OLE would have been so extreme it's hard to consider it viable.
However yes, I really wish more tilting train manufacturers entered the UK market, something like the SBB ETR 610 would be great for HS2 trains running north of Manchester.
@@GWVillager you're right it would be difficult to convert the voyagers for bi-mode running and yes we really do need more tilting trains in the UK but the dft probably won't allow it as tilting trains are a bit more complex and obviously more expensive but surely that would be worth it in the name of giving passengers a faster and more efficient service
Interesting to see you have essentially the same opinion as I do on the 800s.
The seats are a major let down, enough that I for one don't bother to travel by rail, now that getting a LNER Intercity 225 is much more miss than hit. Other than that, they are a good replacement for the HSTs and 91s. I find the 800s handle the ruts and bumps better than the older stock and its easier to move (walk) at speed down the isles. The seats of the 800s' first class line up very badly with the windows, unlike the MK3 and MK4 coaches which had an excellent view.
I can also say the refurbished Class 390 Pendolinos now emulate the 800s uncomfortable seats, especially in standard. Again, in my case it means I just don't bother travelling by rail.
Great video!
The question is, would it be worth spend money refurbishing HSTs and Mark 4 sets to ironing board seats standards just to keem them running a few more years when Hitachi fleet is cheeper to maintain?
I found the ride quality (shackling and rattling) to be awful on these! At least on the Azuma’s that is…
The HSTs werent going to last forever, and with the progress of electrification, it made sense for trains to be able to make use of the wires wherever possible. To Scotland, London to Abredeen and Inverness workings can now work under the wires as far as Edinbrugh/Sterling, whereas before, HSTs had to be diesel powered throughout from London. The main drawback is the seats, inevitable comparisons with the HST seats will be drawn by those who remember them. Seats in Lumo 800's are more ergonomically frendly and comfortable than the LNER and GWR ones, so this proves it is possible to improve the situation.
Enjoyed the video, your voice is excellent. Do you by any chance work for GWR ? Voice seems familiar.
You must be thinking of someone else, I (unfortunately!) don't work for GWR.
Nothing can replace the legendary HSTs
You see as an American I never cared about HSTs. No nostalgia because even with Bi-yearly trips to the UK, I don’t remember being on one. The IETs are fine. They are a perfectly sensible train in every respect. LNER (the operator I ride the most) has fine IETs, and the seats are fine (though I may be jaded by Republic Airways ERJ-175 economy seats).
I dare you to take a trip from Paddington to Penzance on a 8XX and not in 1st class, although it's not much better.. Your view on its suitability will change dramatically. Not only are they uncomfortable but once they leave the wires they are noisy as hell if you pick the wrong seat. As for the ride quality, like the build quality their bad. The HST had a better ride
@@thearsenalmisfit2414I take them on diesel for the section between Bath and Chippenham and don't find that being on diesel mode is that noticeable, and the ride quality of the HST wasn't really silky smooth
Aside from the seats there is also no excuse for seats with no windows which just seems lazy to copy the error from Voyagers. I’ve never travelled in First on the new trains as the seats look the same as Standard.
Keeping HSTs is amore about nostalgy and seating capacity. The thing is, government wants to get rid of loco hauled stock as available traction is or too old, problematic and too powerful to provide traction to a relatively light rake. There are exceptions when this formations are needed and charter operators come in action promoting their abilities out of special charter tours, the case of LSL Intercity.
Cool
The seats on the high speed trains were much more comfortable before the recent refurbishment. Fire regs are not the problem because the seats on the South Western 159s are far superior and are comparitavely modern builds.
I'd rather take the slow run to Waterloo in comfort than the fast to Pad on a glorified bench!
The SWR 159s still use the original British Rail seats dating from the early 1990s (the design is, I believe, based on the 1970s IC70 seat, making it even older), so they're not modern by any definition!
@@GWVillager good for them.....btw 1990s is very modern! Shit man they had the internet then so it can't be that long ago!...
Got a corner seat on one of GWR's 800s. There's a completely pointless protrusion from the wall there, perfectly positioned for smashing your elbow on. I smashed my elbow on it. A lot.
I hate those too. They really ought to be replaced by luggage space.
I found the LNER ones a bit shaky compared to the old 125's.
They're a massive improvement on the 200/221/222 DMU's though. There's much more overhead storage space.
Yes, the ride quality of the 80xs appears not to be aging too well, I'm certain they don't behave as they used to at speed. Though the 125s were never amazing at that, far too squeaky for my taste! The IC 225s were much better on the ECML though. And almost anything beats a Voyager!
@@GWVillager Every time I rode an HST in Scotland I noticed how much the gangways squeaked. I wasn't sure if that was a common problem. Far more annoying to me than the 800's seats.
To be honest the lack of comfort from new fleets reflects what a minority of customers deserve after giving bad use to it. So this new seats are more suitable for resting feet during a journey for example. So why investing in more comfortable seats if they are prone to bad use and more expensive to maintain?
2:43 why would you want to be able to clearly see the vestibule
I hate the IETs, I will do anything to avoid riding on one! Uncomfortable, hard seats and a rough ride quality. Not to mention they are pretty much everywhere! Transpennine, LNER, Lumo, Avanti now, GWR, Hull Trains and soon EMR… They will be replacing my local 222 meridians which I have been traveling on for over 11 years. I don’t care if I have to wait an extra half hour for another train, I will avoid IETs!
Unfortunately I do not like the GWR IET's. They're a massive downgrade from the HST's to me. The seat comfort is shockingly uncomfortable the interior looks very unpleasant looking with Green and Grey as they don't go together at all there is no catering service on them at all and the First Class don't make any difference to standard class on this type of train.
Nice video eep up the good work.
9:21 weren't the first pendolinos powered by pantograph wire?
Heres an idea, tbh it wont happen brcause if the DFT, but take the seats from the MK2 and MK3 carriges and stick them in the IET, we get the best of both worlds
Unfortunately they violate new fire safety regulations.
@@GWVillager which part of the seat
These are more about corporate image than existing for the customer, which is a shame. As these were spawned from the "Javelin" electric train, why on earth did they not get the same seats?
I believe the old seats no longer comply with fire safety regulations.
As a normie and not a train enthusiast, I went on one of these all the way to London to Cornwall - and thought it was really good.
is it just me that thinks only the gwr ones are bad, because i ride the lner ones alot and everything works and it is about as comfortable as other trains i ride.
The GWR sets are definitely the worst of the lot, yes.
Compare HST's with class 800s on electrified routes makes non sense. If compared to Mark 4 sets, that would make more sense, even on non electrified routes. The comparison is all about interior comfort and not operational performance in my point os view. HST's fleet after a refurbishment would be able to accomodate more seats than hitachi units. Meanwhile in comfort standards that would depend on what seats TOCs would provide according to new safety regulations.
The HSTs just did not have as many seats as the 800/802s and are smaller, how would refurbishment change that? It would mean reducing legroom, and/or making the seats thinner so you can squeeze more in but if comfort is an advantage of the HST over the 800/802, that advantage would be gone
in a word no...! Passenger comfort...zero!! Give me a BT10 comfort anytime...lets be honest....are they any faster...?....HST are still running after 40 years.....will Hitachi....dont think so!!
How many times you going to ask the same thing?
Theyre better than Grand Centrals 180, especially coming down Durham Coast and Tees Valley lines.
Class 800s and 802s are the worst intercity train and the seats are very uncomfortable. Honestly the InterCity125 and InterCity225 sets were so much better with comfortable seats
You mentioned that seets can't be too comfortable these days
Why is that?
Fire safety regulations - too deep cushions are considered a risk.
just want to say, based on the looks of them, even the HSTs 1st class doesn't look as comfortable as standard Amtrak coaches, Amtrak gets a lot of hate, but if there's one thing they do unequivocally right, it's comfortable seats in their coaches
Yes, Amtrak benefit from not being held back by Britain’s extremely strict fire safety regulations, and their journey times are long enough that a comfy seat is vital.
Even still, Amtrak are generally pretty good at rolling stock interiors (as you say), the problem is that they have neither enough places to run them or get them up to speed.
@@GWVillager north east corridor services are really nice, I just wish the same could be said of the rest of their system :/, I live right by DC and Baltimore, but thanks to big brain transit planning, despite a Marc line having a station within about a mile of my college, for most of the day, I'd have to take 2 metro lines to Union Station and then a different Marc line to get to Baltimore
@@haxorouse3265 Poor integration is a real irritation, some places prove it can be done and when it is it's fantastic. Unfortunately that's usually not the case outside of cities, in the UK, at least.
The 800s have the looks, not the feel, the HSTs have the feel, they're opposites
Not been on a train for years. The last was a 165 turbo set on Chiltern back in the 90s. It seems to me that each generation of train gets smaller than the one before. Odd when we are entreated to dump the car at every opportunity. l don't see the logic. However, quite an interesting look at a modern train. Still made to carry people, as long as they don't have more than a carrier bag apiece. No space for a bicycle that you need to be eco friendly at the end of your journey either. You mention wheel chairs, but those vestibules look rather tight to me. Mind your knuckles!! Hey ho . . . . Loco and coaches for me, luggage van and a guard, lol 👍👍🤣🤣
The seats are so uncomfortable.
When last Pendolino trains finish their careers, Hitachi 800 family on their own along to older brothers Javelin class 395, will be the best and the worst high speed trains running on british metals. Simple as that.
The GWR class 800's are horrible trains. Appalling seats, rough & noisy ride, noisy underfloor engines, loud whining traction motors, harsh overbright lighting, and lets not forget the structural cracking after three years service. There is a reason why so many companies are using them; they are cheap and it shows through in every aspect of the passenger experience.
The structural cracking is a shame, if only the GWML electrification was completed to Swansea and Bristol, then 801s could be used which are more resilient.
They're a great train with terrible seats. And it's a lie that is put about by people who buy terrible seats that "It's the fault of fire safety laws". It's just not true, it's just that actually comfortable compliant seats are expensive, and the penny pinchers won't cough up to do it.
LNER First class seats on 800s fleet is far better than older Virgin East Coast.
It's starting to get down right suspicious off there the Shera amount of class 80x train
I dislike how much you judged the trains that weren't out, maybe re-visit this once they're out
Trains that weren't out? What exactly are you referring to?
@@GWVillager trains that weren't in service, such as the class-810
@@smudgycat6750 I didn't discuss them extensively, and will review when they enter service.
@@GWVillager aight bet
Seats. Let’s not forget they are specified by the government. As cheaply as as possible.
I love the HST sets. I hate these class 800s. Not just for the fact they replaced the Hsts but when you get on a Hst it looks and feels pretty sturdy and well made, when you so much as look at the class 800s exterior you see some cheap rubbish. I mean the inside is littered with sliding doors everywhere, the tiolet walls look like they are made from cardboard, the seats are dreadfull. the worst thing is the engine, theres no gradual built up in accelleration, its all or nothing and pretty instantly, you feel it massively! I will never ever look on the 800 with fond memories or even love, same as those voyagers (even though the voyagers are superior to the class 800s in honesty
ok
the 800s ... the GWR ones , as these are the only ones i have been on... seats are terrible very uncomfortable . the fire safety regs are red herring, they are just cheaper seats. The lighting is far to bright ... no buffet car ... There is on the LNER one .. but not GWR ...mmmm trolly is pointless... as most of time it's 2 x 5 cars... so you dont see the trolly.. or there are bags in the way, etc .. next .. the drone.... non stop drone !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.... all the time ... drone........................................... overall has it stopped me going on trains with my family ... from Cardiff to london .... yes.
They sound like a tractor when pulling away on diesel mode and to the point of view of a passenger who just sees them as a vehicle to get them from point a to point b they probably think that the engine sounding tractory makes it dirty, disgusting, coughing and beltchey on diesel mode
Simple answer is NO!!
In my opinion No. They are a terrible replacement.
No
Terrible for bikes, commuter trains are far better
no way, the hst is way better for me
The IETs On GWR Are Worse Then The Great Depression But The HSTs On The Other Hand Are Alot Better 👍
look better than a hst, crikey ask the passengers which they prefer!
Unless you ask them about the seats on them, they will be giving you a different answer for that lol
I think the average passenger would probably choose the class 800 over the HST.
they certainly dont look better, they look generic and boring
@@OnTheRailwayOfficial no they wouldnt, just look at cornwall, the 4 car HSTs recieve much better reviews than the IETs. theyre just a better rider experience, more comfortable ride, more spacious, better built. the IETs are completly unsuitable for the services they do
@@Trainman10715 you have obviously not done your research or I don’t think you have ever been in a HST. The interiors are horrible, cramped seats, dull lighting, and the windows are rubbish. Compared to the IET which has unparalleled seat legroom in standard class, much better lighting, and windows which make the cabin feel lighter and more airy. Additionally, the IETs are quicker going to their destination than their older counterparts. I’m sorry but from the view of an average commuter I can’t see why the IET wouldn’t be better?
The class 800s are modern, fast and efficient trains, they have excellent capacity. They are a great HST replacement.
The seats are fine too.
either youre just trolling or youve never ridden on the two, obviously the seats are poor, but thats an issue with the operator, not the train. even then as far as the passengers are concerned theyre worse than the HST in every aspect apart from acceleration. modern means jack shit when it also means junk, theyre fast (in acceleration) till they break down or tear the OLE down, their maximum speed is of course the same as the HST and will be for the forseeable future. they have a smaller capacity with fewer seats per coach (by a considerable margin) than HSTs with a generally cramped and cheap interior. the HSTs werent gonna last forever, but we deserved so much better than what we got as a replacement
@@Trainman10715 The seats are obviously an issue with how morbidly obese you are
@@James-bp7uc ah yes the kid who isn't loved by his parents and makes up for it by spouting shit on the Internet, you'll go far kiddo
@@Trainman10715 your either older than 50 or you are very stupid. HSTs are loud, the luggage compartments rattled. You dont have any valid points just moaning because your favourite train is old cope more
@@profmargins you are either younger than 15 or retarded, probably both. HSTs are infact incredibly quiet, among the quietest trains on the network with an average sound level of around 57 decibels from what I measured, compared to 61 on the IET. The luggage compartments rattled? No they did not. I've infact stated several valid points, why don't you actually try to debate them? Just marching in proclaiming I have no valid points while lacking any validity yourself doesn't disprove anything. I'm not moaning I'm stating fact, theyre old? Well done, that's the only valid thing you've said and it means little, cope harder kiddo
No!