I work on this line regularly as a guard, twice this week in fact. Great line to work, and used a lot by people coming and going from Kent going to Gatwick the “cheaper” way.
Great idea. In addition, say the new Redhill link becomes successful, I think it would be a brilliant idea to build an interchange station at Crowhurst (Surrey) where the Redhill to Tonbridge line crosses the East Grinstead line. The new station would be called Lingfield Parkway which will have four platforms: two east of the bridge towards Redhill or Tonbridge and beyond, and two south of the bridge towards London or East Grinstead, similar to Worcestershire Parkway. The Park & Ride/station entrance can be built from Caterfield Lane.
Virtually impossible, as you now have the M23 in the way, plus housing development at Crawley Down, near the site of the old Grange Road station , and the entire line has now been converted into a cycle track/bridleway (called the Worth Way). East Grinstead high level station has also been developed somewhat .
As a resident of Redhill , I can tell you that a flyover would be stupidly expensive and difficult to build with an industrial estate , residential road, main road and hill in the way. The station also can't really be expanded because of a housing estate on one side and steep wall to a car park on the other , so until there's a genuine need and enough funding , nothing will happen at Redhill.
@@xaviw Could there be a sort of "underslung" flyover that misses all the industrial estate and most of the hill? Maybe put a station - let's call it South Redhill - on the line? Ok, I accept that my suggestion may reck merry hell on the end to end times from Reading to Tonbridge, but the line is otherwise very straight, and with a new formation, the wobble in the middle could be acceptable. So now, with that improvement, access from the channel ports to the north would have another outlet that doesn't have to go through London. Surely this would be cheaper than blindly blasting the flyover right over the top?
This line is very important along with Redhill to Reading. So many connections can be made to the south and with the GW line at Reading. A journey can still be made from Tonbridge to Penzance and North..Good Vid pointing out the problems which are not insurmountable. The line between Redhill and Reading is kept in top condition for the small amount of passenger traffic it carries..Although freight traffic uses the line 10pm-7am.
I remember taking this line, and I think it is ridiculously underrated. That is because I would consider a bit of a "Bridge line", in that it bridges the Southern network at Redhill with the Southeastern network at Tonbridge, providing some useful orbital connectivity. If it wasn't for the line, that could have made numerous journeys much worse, as you would either need to go into Central London, which is more expensive with many ticket options, or you would need to go via Hastings and across the Marshlink line (a line which Beeching wanted to be closed, but got saved) or up the Hastings line and then doubling back on Tonbridge. Some responses I would give however: 4:10 - I am not sure how politically possible that would be, because if you did that, you would get complaints from Redhill officials complaining about their town being left behind by being bypassed. As a result, it would be more desirable to many to retain the reversal at Redhill, or maybe have high level platforms (4 and 5) for Redhill on the new bypass chord. Ultimately, for a station which was used by almost 4 million passengers before COVID, serving Redhill by some means would be highly desirable 5:54 - That is an excellent point, because pending upgrades at Reigate, trains can only be 4 carriages, and that is for the full-length of the journey from Victoria, except during peak times where they divide with an extra Gatwick portion. That in turn can easily lead to plenty of overcrowding in London with any 4 carriage trains out of Victoria thesedays, unless it was just some connecting shuttle, which Victoria to Reigate is most certainly not. In many ways, you would only need a very small number of additional units, because if it was able to replace the current shuttle, with a little shuffling around of 3-car and 4-car units, you would only need a couple more trains and that's it. Such a service would however make sense to be a stopper, given from Tonbridge, it would be a supplementary service to the main SE services into Charing Cross and Cannon Street, and then have separate faster services along the line proceeding to non-london destinations. That would be a good idea, because no new paths would be needed as well, given in all likelihood, it would only be one of the current Reigate services. The only risk is that like any train division, you could get a bottleneck, particularly if there is disruption on the Tonbridge line, leading the signalpeople with no choice but to dispatch the service from Reigate on its own into London, and terminate the Tonbridge service at Redhill, because otherwise you could block Thameslink trains. A solution though could be to make platform 1 a through platform. 6:30 - That is a good idea, but finding some extra train paths would be a must there, given GWR would be reluctant to truncate a train to Redhill already, given they only extending that service quite recently 7:51 - That would greatly enhance some intercity connectivity from Kent, as currently, which the South West gets pretty good connections to the Northeast or the Northwest. By comparison, other that a few Thameslink services across London to East of England London commuter towns, there are few long distance services from the Southeast (specifically east of Southampton) to destinations other that London, so that could help to resolve that connectivity problem.
I've used this service many times to get between Tunbridge Wells and Gatwick airport. The connection times at Redhill are really poor. Even putting one extra train on the service to make it half hourly would greatly improve things. It may block the junction at Redhill, but surely for a few minutes more an hour it would be worth it.
Originally Tonbridge to Redhill was electrified for Channel Tunnel freight. It's definitely under used and would provide a useful electrified link to Gatwick from Kent (possibly terminating at Ashford) with stops at Paddock Wood, Tonbridge and Redhill (reverse) as a minimum.
@@MartinAvison Better than going all the way into London. I travelled from Exeter to Canterbury the other day avoiding London completely. It is viable.
As someone who lives less than 400yds from Penshurst station I use this line frequently and always thought it was underutilised. It was a great shame when the line became just a shuttle service. Before 2018 the hourly service (more frequent in peak hours) alternated between running to Charing Cross and Victoria which made connections far easier. I believe Southern Rail have recently agreed to reinstate a service from Tonbridge to Gatwick after a campaign led by our MP.
It is a very scenic line to pootle along, especially in summer, as long as you're not in a rush. I live on the east Sussex coast and regularly travel to Redhill, to do this I can either get the Southern service and change at Gatwick or take the Southeastern service to Tonbridge and change there for the Redhill service. The former takes around 2 hours sometimes less depending on connections at Gatwick the journey via Tonbridge takes about 15 minutes less. Neither is ideal, but I would prefer to go via Tonbridge, as it is less congested. Sadly, the trains on the line between Tonbridge and Redhill are getting very shabby and often very dirty especially if you travel later in the day. Just recently, I've noticed on the last three times I've used it, rather than Southern staff operating the service it has had Southeaster staff doing the job, which seems a little odd. But it would be great to see the line better used and more frequent services.
A few comments here about how to deal with the Redhill conundrum. Personally I'd go for something even more ambitious (but also more beneficial) in the form of a new line via Gatwick Airport. This would branch off the Reading - Redhill line somewhere around Dorking (where a potential chord could also allow use of the line by services from London via Epsom) before running cross-country to Gatwick, approaching the station by running parallel to London Road/Riverside Garden Park. The station itself would likely be constructed with new high level platforms to the north of Airport Way. Alternatively high level platforms could be built closer to the existing station, but this would likely require the demolition of the multistorey car parks and Hilton Hotel to the east of the station. From there, the line would run cross-country to somewhere around Edenbridge (this route would also have potential for a chord where it intersects with the East Grinstead line allowing some trains to run London - Gatwick via Oxted) where it would rejoin with the Redhill - Tonbridge line and services could continue east. Such a route would make more sense in my mind because Gatwick is a much more major interchange hub than Redhill, and services such as the Reading - Gatwick trains could use the new line instead of the BML, leading to a faster journey time and more capacity on the BML for services to London via Redhill. It would also be very useful as an east-west freight link as trains would no longer have to reverse at Redhill, and for the same reason could also be very useful for other potential long-distance services such as the ones you suggested in this video. Looking very long term, it also lays the groundworks for the proposed HS4Air which would run from Ashford to Heathrow via Tonbridge and Gatwick. It's not likely to happen for a long time (if at all) but this line would present one less potential barrier to such a plan as much of the route would be shared. TLDR: New line from Edenbridge to Dorking via Gatwick instead of putting a chord in at Redhill - useful for freight, express passenger, and also relieves the BML.
Whilst ambitious I want to raise my concerns with the above. As with HS2 the challenge is to remove the faster services from the current Brighton Mainline and it’s feeders in the Brighton, Burgess Hill, Haywards Heath and Three Bridges areas to allow the existing infrastructure to focus on more local travel - this should also link to the BML2 project at East Croydon in a manner that can allow services to head via Gatwick or Uckfield southbound or northbound via Lewisham, Canary Wharf and Stratford (BML2) London Bridge, Farringdon and either St Pancreas Intl or Euston (Thameslink) Victoria, Paddington, Wembley and Watford Junction (Southern) as this would increase capacity for express services with additional platforms at Gatwick to take into account longer dwell times due to luggage loading delays. Naturally this would be a phased project interlinked with the HS2 and Crossrail2 projects which have opportunities to link in This would allow the Tonbridge and Reading services to both continue to serve Gatwick we don’t need to prioritise one over the other especially if the station redevelopment is blocked and we could remove the freight lines and realign platform 3 into a new island platform that can also accommodate the Tonbridge service on a new through platform. In the video there is talk of a new link over the Ford Garage site and this is a long way from the current station so for disabled passengers that would be suboptimal.
This line used to have far more trains back in the 00s during the Connex era, SE used to run a London Bridge to Tunbridge Wells service over this route, as well As the Strood/Maidstone to Three Bridges service operated by Southern, of course until 1993, the service used to run from Tonbridge to Reading, this line is woefully underused
Then if you can pursude Eurostar to restart using Ashford international station, entire areas of the country would also be connected to Europe without the inconvenience of haveing to travel into London 😀
Exactly! I used to regularly travel from Canterbury to Ashford Intnl. and catch the Eurostar for weekends in Burgundy. The closing of that connection is totally baffling.
@@garethomas1951 I honestly don't think Ashford will EVER re-open for Eurostar. They may as well re use the platforms for Javelin services, and the proposed high speed services to Hastings/Bexhill. Sad but true.
The hourly Reading to Tonbridge service used to be worked by Southern Region DEMUs. It was slow but a long distance cross country service that I remember using to go from Reading to the channel ports
@@JezzTransport I guess what I'm saying is, that whatever the sensible thing to do is, when it comes to railways in Britain, from my experience, they don't do it, they won't do it, they'll strive to do the exact opposite, and to boot, they'll make it so that no-one can possibly do that in the future either. If a minister for transport watches this video, they'll decide to remove the track somewhere around Edenbridge, build an office block and a road junction in its place, then make all trains terminate at Edenbridge and make travelers walk to South Godstone where the line restarts on a new train (whose timetable is in no way compatible with the times of the trains to Edenbridge). All because of your impertinent sensible suggestions.
Look at the old Bradshaws railway guides. At the time of the grouping 1920-1923 there were through trains from the Kent coast to Reading, BIrmingham and the North West. In addition some ran to South West England. In the 1970's there was a plan to add a South to West curve at Redhill so that trains from Gatwick could directly access the Reading line. Also in the Glory days of Inter-city there were direct trains from Brighton (also the occasional one from Dover) to Birmingham and beyond. Most of these ran via Kensington Olympia. These were withdrawn because they interfered with the local London commuter services.
In the noughties I used to commute from Tunbridge Wells to London. On some days the route via sevenoaks would by blocked, my train would be diverted on this line to go via Redhill. Not sure if this is possible now after the realignment at Redhill as the track now ends in a buffer. BTW that Redhill work which was building platform 0, a lift and moving the track around cost £50m!
I have been on a diverted service from Hastings back towards London which took a diversionary route via Redhill and went up the BML as far as East Croydon, before rejoining to get to London Bridge via the East London Line from Norwood Junction. Looking at a track diagram, this diversion is still possible as the route into Platform 0/1 is connected to the line through stanard points rather than crossovers, however still has the ability to block the main running lines when used. Another diversion I have taken before was the Thameslink route to Swanley at Sevenoaks before rejoining the SEML via Lewisham by a single track section between Beckenham Junction & New Beckenham on the Hayes route. Redhill - Tonbridge is certainly an underutlised route. A friend of mine remembers the days of BR and the Tonbridge - Reading service, ran with Tadpole sets before being replaced with DMMUs. He also told me that it used to take a very long time to traverse the route on the service, requiring the obvious reversal at Redhill. Arguably, it is still viable to run the service in this fashion, but the overal line speeds and reliability would have to improve, first in partof laying more thirs rail between Reigate and Guildford and then onwards through to around Winersh to fully connect the system to Reading. Unfortunaly, Network Rail has a massive phobia of laying down more third rail, in contrast to BR still laying it down when the SWML juice was extended to Weymouth in the mid - late 80s as well as the Redhill recieving the rail initially for the 92 diagrams when Dolland's Moor was opened (but was found the Dysons were too powerful for the substations to cope). It's more or less the main reason why the Ukfield and Marshlink still run on diesel to this day. Speaking of Marshlink, I believe it suffers the same problems as the Rehill route, although faces much steeper challenge, being hamstrung with single track running between Ore & Appledore, reducing overal capacity. If double tracking was reinstated and electrification done, not only can services on the East Coastway from Brighton be extended beyond Ore to Ashford, but can then also serve as another diversionary line for Hastings services by simply running via Ashford nd run up the SEML from there (Markshlink was the original SER route to Hastings before the 1066 via Wells was built)
@@Pedro_Dactyl I recall the ton Redhill line itself was electrified in the 90s. I was at Redhill today and a class73 came to platform 2 from Tonbridge so the diversion must be possible. That is a very complex junction.
Since electrification, projection of the service beyond the Redhil - Tonbridge "core," at various times Strood/Maidstone West tio Three Bridges, Tunbridge Wells to London via Edenbridge, Horsham to Tunbridge Wells, but these have all ceased now, as 2 trains per hour Victoria to Reigate was seen as more preferable; the Tonbridge service also rerminares at the very top end of Platform 1 at Redhill, inferring a long walk for most connections, except towards Mersthan/Purley/East Croydon.
I looked for a route from Upper Warlingham to Sevenoaks, avoiding London. That's where this line comes into focus, together with the Uckfield Line and the South Eastern Main Line.
I wish there was a Redhill to Strood (or even Crawley to Rainham?) link via Maidstone. It could be the first part of a lesser redo of the old HighSpeed4Air idea. Edit: Ah I should have waited till 2:30 before commenting. Had no idea there used to be a direct route! Talking of Redhill, why does East Surrey Hospital (a 700 bed 5000 staff building) not have a station? Its literally 100m from the track and most of that is wasteland, it'd also give Earlswood and White bushes a transit link.
I did think about including a section about new stations, they are already pretty frequent along the line so I thought it wasn't the line's biggest issue. Honestly it sounds like a job that would be better served by busses but a station could also work.
Honestly the frequency is fine for a local service, its the fact that it doesn't go anywhere meaningful, with the connections at either end being lacking
For years I’ve had the idea to build a new orbital railway around London just beyond the M25 to supplement it and take traffic off it, giving people like me, who’d much rather use the train, the option to avoid using the M25 all together. The Tonbridge to Redhill line would become part of Orbirail, as I’ll call this new line and service, with a new spur line branching off just after Leigh and linking up with the Southeastern Mainline just north of Hildenbrough. It would also use the Redhill to Guildford line and the Sevenoaks to Swanley line. Your proposal for a new flyover at Redhill seems much more sensible than the tunnel I had planned to link the 2 lines together, much less expensive too. This was a good video. Hope you like my idea for how the Tonbridge to Redhill line could be used more.
Living in Hertfordshire, only a few miles north of London, we definitely need something cutting across east to west, traffic is crazy. There used to be a number of lines that would be useful now that closed in the 50s and 60s like Braintree to Bishop's Stortford, Hertford - Welwyn Garden City - Luton and the Abbey Line used to extend to Hatfield. Some kind of rail link that parallels the Dartford Crossing is needed in my opinion or failing that, a new HS1 station at Purfleet which is near the M25 as an ideal place for a park and ride station. As for Sussex, can't help but think Three Bridges to Tunbridge Wells would be a busy line today. But how'd we make all these different routes into a circular railway would take a lot of will and effort, but until we have a government that looks ahead long term, it seems unlikely which is frustrating. Another line that feels under-utilised goes from Gatwick and Redhill to Reading via Guildford so the potential is definitely there.
@@aaronsmith9209 I’m so pleased you like my idea, thank you. I already know how to make all those lines into a circular route though, there are plenty of existing lines to the south of London that could be used. The northern half of Orbirail would need completely new lines built though.
@@trainlover16 I don't know about the other counties, but Hertfordshire County Council seems to be well aware of the East to West problem with public transport and their idea is the HERT between Harlow and Hemel Hempstead plus a branch to Watford but that seems to more of a bus rapid transit scheme which probably won't solve the problem as well as a train or light rail. Getting the different counties to work together always seems like the hard bit!
It's like a mini version of the SNCF's Lyon - Nantes line, which the SNCF treat like c$!p for many many years until it was going to blow-up in their faces. Improvement is being made, but boy, it's late to come! Sadly, the Lyon - Bordeaux line has too many end-on reversals to be improved in similar fashion, unless either a completly new line or smoothing out of the end-on reversals.
This really is a neglected route that would much benefit from improvements. The only time it sees more than one train an hour is when the SE Hastings-London route needs to avoid Sevenoaks, then two trains an hour run fast between Tonbridge and Redhill. These no longer call at Redhill (or Croydon), however, apparently due to a dispute with Southern wanting to charge spurious amounts of money to dispatch trains at those stations. This wasn't a problem until SE went into public ownership though... Kent in general is only "well served" if you want to get directly to or directly away from London. If you want to make journeys anywhere else though where your destination isn't on the way to London, then the mentality is very much "that's your problem, enjoy one train an hour as long as it isn't cancelled" because the timetabling and frequency is incredibly hostile to non-London journeys. Services are not timetabled to make any logical connections at any of the historic interchanges, e.g. Orpington, Sevenoaks, Faversham, Ashford, Tonbridge. This makes life hard for any customers looking for any route between Tunbridge Wells/Tonbridge and Redhill, Ramsgate, Dover, Strood or any of the intermediate destinations. I feel like timetables started to prioritise London over local journeys about 8 years ago, but a lot of cut-backs in service were made "due to Covid" but this was 4 years ago now. Passenger numbers are now pretty much back to pre-pandemic levels, but the times of day that people travel have changed, e.g. people work from home more days, commute on fewer days, and instead do a lot more off-peak, leisure and weekend travel than they did before Covid. This has likely resulted in less income through rail due to less Peak/Anytime/Season tickets and therefore less revenue, so cuts to service have remained even after Covid, hoping people won't realise the service is less frequent than before.
That Flyover at Redhill would not be possible, too tight and too steep. Instead I would build a high level line with platforms north south replacing the through lines for the Thameslink services. this would enable services from Reigate and Tonbridge to stop at Redhill attach/detach or reverse without causing conflicts with the north south traffic
That would be a much simpler solution, allowing trains to either reverse at Redhill Platforms 0 & 1 (which would also become bi-directional platforms for the London - Reigate service), or for the construction of a new chord which could also be diverted beneath the flyover for east-west services (including freight) to traverse Redhill without the need to reverse.
@@Wildcard71 There could be station if you follow the same system as at some other stations with high and low levels. Also it isn't called the South Central Mainline but rather Brighton Mainline. Also it would allow freight for the first time to avoid London. At worst you are looking at 1:50 on the Downs side of the flyover as you only need to gain at most 8m of elevation as you already have a 1.5m differential between Flyover and Brighton Mainline ware you would cross. If you can start the Downs climb before Upper Bridge Road and/or reduced the amount it needs to climb then the grade can be reduced as on the Tonebridge side you have a lot more room to play with. Also I would install a Bay platform on the Tonebridge side of Redhill to remove conflicts.
I always found it amazing that only two lines straddle the Surrey/Kent border. Also as it was technically (or at least it appeared that way) an extension of the Reading-Redhill route it's crazy the way the station developed with the line coming in from the south and then out again south. Same reason the Reading-Gatwick drivers have to walk down the other end of the train at Redhill.
Quick note on your proposed long-distance (Margate-Bristol & Dover-Birmingham) services: As I understand it, between Shalford Junction and the 4tph going Ash-wards, Guildford is already hella congested. Oh, and unless they changed things very recently, the platform at Farnborough is way too short for the trains to consider stopping there. It'd be non-stop from Guildford to Wokingham.
Hmm the problem with not being able to stop at Farnborough is that it means people wouldn't be able to transfer onto the South Western line. Guildford may be an issue, but four trains an hour isn't the limit of what is possible, it is possible to go much higher, but if it isn't grade separations could be made, and potentially quad tracking that section could be worth it but honestly I doubt it. The Farnham - Guildford services could be cut to hourly, but honestly I don't know that area too well so don't really know how much demand that service gets
@@JezzTransport IIRC the announcements on the NDL suggest changing at Guildford for travel towards London, not Farnborough North. Considering the amount of trains already heading in towards London from the Southeast, and Guildford-Woking already being 3TPH, I don't imagine transferring there from southwards being too much of an issue. There's also a line from Reading to Basingstoke already, so I don't see that being too much of an issue either. If SWR's timetables are up-to-date, then Farnborough Main only gets 3tph anyway with the Southampton and Weymouth/Bornemouth services skipping it entirely, so I think it wouldn't be that good of a transfer anyway without a major timetable change and/or the installation of a centre platform. I've also double-checked the stations and, unless there are plans to change it soon, the platform at Farnborough North is still a whole three-and-a-half carriages long, so would need to be lengthened (or stopped at with a too-long train) if you plan to run the routes with any reasonable capacity. Considering that the faster trains along the route between Wokingham and Guildford only stop at North Camp and Blackwater, which are both double that length, the station seems like more of an afterthought than a proper interchange to the SWML - if Google Maps is to be believed, there isn't even a bus between Farnboroughs Main and North. I can't say how much demand the Farnham-Guildford service gets, but I am under the impression that (and I may very well be wrong here) it is currently run using solo 450s when it used to be doubled pre-pandemic. Or maybe I'm just being too cynical for no reason. I don't actually know how many people use Farnborough to transfer between lines. It might be more than I currently believe.
What resources do you use for the timetable? Interested in that 'pass' time functionality. Also, the 4:12 flyover would prevent exchanges to Thameslink/airport. The tonsbridge line doesnt have enough people for two different lines.
It’s a shame that Southern don’t still operate the Tonbridge to Horsham via Redhill and Gatwick service as they did for a while back in the early 2000s.
Thanks, some interesting thoughts. The photo at Tonbridge in 1979 (at 2:30) is one of mine, by the way. Historically, there have been quite a few longer distance trains over the line, although these have gradually faded out over the years. Kent County Council have argued for a through service from (say) the Medway Towns and Maidstone to Gatwick Airport, and it was considered in one of the Kent Route Utilisation Studies but Network Rail concluded the potential benefit wouldn't justify such a service, rightly or wrongly. Unfortunately, the lack of Eurostar services at Ashford make through services via Redhill from there less attractive.
About a decade ago I commuted to Redhill on the North Downs Line from near Farnborough, so know Redhill station (before platform 0 ...). The curve from Reigate to Redhill is on the limit of what the existing stock can manage - you wouldn't want to add points to connect a line to Tonbridge to it ... A more useful link would be to have a curve from the Tonbridge side of Redhill station, crossing near the tunnel entrance and going over the Brighton main line on a bridge then dropping down to share platforms 0 & 1 with trains to Reigate and beyond. The link to platform 3 might need to be sacrificed depending on how gradients and distances work out (hard to tell from my armchair with only Google maps!). Unless more could be changed to avoid trains having to reverse ... that would be preferable for goods trains, which can make use of this link (they do on the Reading link). It's probably the Channel Tunnel's fault - if Redhill to Tonbridge hadn't been electrified to provide an alternative route it would probably have remained part of the Reading Guildford Redhill route
Wait until Sevenoaks tunnel gets the heavy maintenance is has needed for years, then you'll see the old "main line" get some use. Long distance? Bring back the old Birkenhead - Eastbourne/Hastings/Ramsgate service. And rebuild and reinstate the Crowhurst spur onto the Oxted - East Grinstead.
I work on this line regularly as a guard, twice this week in fact. Great line to work, and used a lot by people coming and going from Kent going to Gatwick the “cheaper” way.
hello fellow south guard :)
As someone very familiar with the line would you agree with me about what should be done?
Great idea. In addition, say the new Redhill link becomes successful, I think it would be a brilliant idea to build an interchange station at Crowhurst (Surrey) where the Redhill to Tonbridge line crosses the East Grinstead line. The new station would be called Lingfield Parkway which will have four platforms: two east of the bridge towards Redhill or Tonbridge and beyond, and two south of the bridge towards London or East Grinstead, similar to Worcestershire Parkway. The Park & Ride/station entrance can be built from Caterfield Lane.
Reopening the line from Three Bridges to East Grinstead and on to Tunbridge Wells would be very useful.
Virtually impossible, as you now have the M23 in the way, plus housing development at Crawley Down, near the site of the old Grange Road station , and the entire line has now been converted into a cycle track/bridleway (called the Worth Way). East Grinstead high level station has also been developed somewhat .
That means the train would have to change ends a lot. Jezz is suggesting less of that
As a resident of Redhill , I can tell you that a flyover would be stupidly expensive and difficult to build with an industrial estate , residential road, main road and hill in the way. The station also can't really be expanded because of a housing estate on one side and steep wall to a car park on the other , so until there's a genuine need and enough funding , nothing will happen at Redhill.
Oh but the council will happily spend millions on road works.
@@xaviw Could there be a sort of "underslung" flyover that misses all the industrial estate and most of the hill? Maybe put a station - let's call it South Redhill - on the line? Ok, I accept that my suggestion may reck merry hell on the end to end times from Reading to Tonbridge, but the line is otherwise very straight, and with a new formation, the wobble in the middle could be acceptable. So now, with that improvement, access from the channel ports to the north would have another outlet that doesn't have to go through London. Surely this would be cheaper than blindly blasting the flyover right over the top?
This line is very important along with Redhill to Reading. So many connections can be made to the south and with the GW line at Reading. A journey can still be made from Tonbridge to Penzance and North..Good Vid pointing out the problems which are not insurmountable. The line between Redhill and Reading is kept in top condition for the small amount of passenger traffic it carries..Although freight traffic uses the line 10pm-7am.
I remember taking this line, and I think it is ridiculously underrated. That is because I would consider a bit of a "Bridge line", in that it bridges the Southern network at Redhill with the Southeastern network at Tonbridge, providing some useful orbital connectivity. If it wasn't for the line, that could have made numerous journeys much worse, as you would either need to go into Central London, which is more expensive with many ticket options, or you would need to go via Hastings and across the Marshlink line (a line which Beeching wanted to be closed, but got saved) or up the Hastings line and then doubling back on Tonbridge.
Some responses I would give however:
4:10 - I am not sure how politically possible that would be, because if you did that, you would get complaints from Redhill officials complaining about their town being left behind by being bypassed. As a result, it would be more desirable to many to retain the reversal at Redhill, or maybe have high level platforms (4 and 5) for Redhill on the new bypass chord. Ultimately, for a station which was used by almost 4 million passengers before COVID, serving Redhill by some means would be highly desirable
5:54 - That is an excellent point, because pending upgrades at Reigate, trains can only be 4 carriages, and that is for the full-length of the journey from Victoria, except during peak times where they divide with an extra Gatwick portion. That in turn can easily lead to plenty of overcrowding in London with any 4 carriage trains out of Victoria thesedays, unless it was just some connecting shuttle, which Victoria to Reigate is most certainly not. In many ways, you would only need a very small number of additional units, because if it was able to replace the current shuttle, with a little shuffling around of 3-car and 4-car units, you would only need a couple more trains and that's it. Such a service would however make sense to be a stopper, given from Tonbridge, it would be a supplementary service to the main SE services into Charing Cross and Cannon Street, and then have separate faster services along the line proceeding to non-london destinations. That would be a good idea, because no new paths would be needed as well, given in all likelihood, it would only be one of the current Reigate services. The only risk is that like any train division, you could get a bottleneck, particularly if there is disruption on the Tonbridge line, leading the signalpeople with no choice but to dispatch the service from Reigate on its own into London, and terminate the Tonbridge service at Redhill, because otherwise you could block Thameslink trains. A solution though could be to make platform 1 a through platform.
6:30 - That is a good idea, but finding some extra train paths would be a must there, given GWR would be reluctant to truncate a train to Redhill already, given they only extending that service quite recently
7:51 - That would greatly enhance some intercity connectivity from Kent, as currently, which the South West gets pretty good connections to the Northeast or the Northwest. By comparison, other that a few Thameslink services across London to East of England London commuter towns, there are few long distance services from the Southeast (specifically east of Southampton) to destinations other that London, so that could help to resolve that connectivity problem.
I've used this service many times to get between Tunbridge Wells and Gatwick airport. The connection times at Redhill are really poor. Even putting one extra train on the service to make it half hourly would greatly improve things. It may block the junction at Redhill, but surely for a few minutes more an hour it would be worth it.
Originally Tonbridge to Redhill was electrified for Channel Tunnel freight. It's definitely under used and would provide a useful electrified link to Gatwick from Kent (possibly terminating at Ashford) with stops at Paddock Wood, Tonbridge and Redhill (reverse) as a minimum.
It already provides a good link to Gatwick Airport.
But only if you change at Redhill.
Changing platforms with suitcases is not easy.
@@MartinAvison Better than going all the way into London. I travelled from Exeter to Canterbury the other day avoiding London completely. It is viable.
As someone who lives less than 400yds from Penshurst station I use this line frequently and always thought it was underutilised. It was a great shame when the line became just a shuttle service. Before 2018 the hourly service (more frequent in peak hours) alternated between running to Charing Cross and Victoria which made connections far easier. I believe Southern Rail have recently agreed to reinstate a service from Tonbridge to Gatwick after a campaign led by our MP.
It is a very scenic line to pootle along, especially in summer, as long as you're not in a rush. I live on the east Sussex coast and regularly travel to Redhill, to do this I can either get the Southern service and change at Gatwick or take the Southeastern service to Tonbridge and change there for the Redhill service. The former takes around 2 hours sometimes less depending on connections at Gatwick the journey via Tonbridge takes about 15 minutes less. Neither is ideal, but I would prefer to go via Tonbridge, as it is less congested.
Sadly, the trains on the line between Tonbridge and Redhill are getting very shabby and often very dirty especially if you travel later in the day. Just recently, I've noticed on the last three times I've used it, rather than Southern staff operating the service it has had Southeaster staff doing the job, which seems a little odd.
But it would be great to see the line better used and more frequent services.
A few comments here about how to deal with the Redhill conundrum. Personally I'd go for something even more ambitious (but also more beneficial) in the form of a new line via Gatwick Airport.
This would branch off the Reading - Redhill line somewhere around Dorking (where a potential chord could also allow use of the line by services from London via Epsom) before running cross-country to Gatwick, approaching the station by running parallel to London Road/Riverside Garden Park.
The station itself would likely be constructed with new high level platforms to the north of Airport Way. Alternatively high level platforms could be built closer to the existing station, but this would likely require the demolition of the multistorey car parks and Hilton Hotel to the east of the station.
From there, the line would run cross-country to somewhere around Edenbridge (this route would also have potential for a chord where it intersects with the East Grinstead line allowing some trains to run London - Gatwick via Oxted) where it would rejoin with the Redhill - Tonbridge line and services could continue east.
Such a route would make more sense in my mind because Gatwick is a much more major interchange hub than Redhill, and services such as the Reading - Gatwick trains could use the new line instead of the BML, leading to a faster journey time and more capacity on the BML for services to London via Redhill. It would also be very useful as an east-west freight link as trains would no longer have to reverse at Redhill, and for the same reason could also be very useful for other potential long-distance services such as the ones you suggested in this video.
Looking very long term, it also lays the groundworks for the proposed HS4Air which would run from Ashford to Heathrow via Tonbridge and Gatwick. It's not likely to happen for a long time (if at all) but this line would present one less potential barrier to such a plan as much of the route would be shared.
TLDR: New line from Edenbridge to Dorking via Gatwick instead of putting a chord in at Redhill - useful for freight, express passenger, and also relieves the BML.
Whilst ambitious I want to raise my concerns with the above.
As with HS2 the challenge is to remove the faster services from the current Brighton Mainline and it’s feeders in the Brighton, Burgess Hill, Haywards Heath and Three Bridges areas to allow the existing infrastructure to focus on more local travel - this should also link to the BML2 project at East Croydon in a manner that can allow services to head via Gatwick or Uckfield southbound or northbound via Lewisham, Canary Wharf and Stratford (BML2) London Bridge, Farringdon and either St Pancreas Intl or Euston (Thameslink) Victoria, Paddington, Wembley and Watford Junction (Southern) as this would increase capacity for express services with additional platforms at Gatwick to take into account longer dwell times due to luggage loading delays. Naturally this would be a phased project interlinked with the HS2 and Crossrail2 projects which have opportunities to link in
This would allow the Tonbridge and Reading services to both continue to serve Gatwick we don’t need to prioritise one over the other especially if the station redevelopment is blocked and we could remove the freight lines and realign platform 3 into a new island platform that can also accommodate the Tonbridge service on a new through platform.
In the video there is talk of a new link over the Ford Garage site and this is a long way from the current station so for disabled passengers that would be suboptimal.
This line used to have far more trains back in the 00s during the Connex era, SE used to run a London Bridge to Tunbridge Wells service over this route, as well
As the Strood/Maidstone to Three Bridges service operated by Southern, of course until 1993, the service used to run from Tonbridge to Reading, this line is woefully underused
Then if you can pursude Eurostar to restart using Ashford international station, entire areas of the country would also be connected to Europe without the inconvenience of haveing to travel into London 😀
Exactly! I used to regularly travel from Canterbury to Ashford Intnl. and catch the Eurostar for weekends in Burgundy. The closing of that connection is totally baffling.
@@garethomas1951 I honestly don't think Ashford will EVER re-open for Eurostar. They may as well re use the platforms for Javelin services, and the proposed high speed services to Hastings/Bexhill. Sad but true.
The hourly Reading to Tonbridge service used to be worked by Southern Region DEMUs. It was slow but a long distance cross country service that I remember using to go from Reading to the channel ports
Great ideas. So that'll be exactly what doesn't get implemented.
Absolutely! I mean I myself admit I don't know everything; but something has to be done
@@JezzTransport I guess what I'm saying is, that whatever the sensible thing to do is, when it comes to railways in Britain, from my experience, they don't do it, they won't do it, they'll strive to do the exact opposite, and to boot, they'll make it so that no-one can possibly do that in the future either. If a minister for transport watches this video, they'll decide to remove the track somewhere around Edenbridge, build an office block and a road junction in its place, then make all trains terminate at Edenbridge and make travelers walk to South Godstone where the line restarts on a new train (whose timetable is in no way compatible with the times of the trains to Edenbridge). All because of your impertinent sensible suggestions.
@@JezzTransport PS great video! Looks like a good deal of work went into it. :)
They could also be a Eurostar like service to Bristol from the contient. Stopping at many local towns both in the contient and in the uk
Was far better when it ran through to Reading. Really handy way of getting across the south of England while avoiding London.
Look at the old Bradshaws railway guides. At the time of the grouping 1920-1923 there were through trains from the Kent coast to Reading, BIrmingham and the North West. In addition some ran to South West England. In the 1970's there was a plan to add a South to West curve at Redhill so that trains from Gatwick could directly access the Reading line. Also in the Glory days of Inter-city there were direct trains from Brighton (also the occasional one from Dover) to Birmingham and beyond. Most of these ran via Kensington Olympia. These were withdrawn because they interfered with the local London commuter services.
That would have been extremely useful!
In the noughties I used to commute from Tunbridge Wells to London. On some days the route via sevenoaks would by blocked, my train would be diverted on this line to go via Redhill. Not sure if this is possible now after the realignment at Redhill as the track now ends in a buffer. BTW that Redhill work which was building platform 0, a lift and moving the track around cost £50m!
I have been on a diverted service from Hastings back towards London which took a diversionary route via Redhill and went up the BML as far as East Croydon, before rejoining to get to London Bridge via the East London Line from Norwood Junction. Looking at a track diagram, this diversion is still possible as the route into Platform 0/1 is connected to the line through stanard points rather than crossovers, however still has the ability to block the main running lines when used. Another diversion I have taken before was the Thameslink route to Swanley at Sevenoaks before rejoining the SEML via Lewisham by a single track section between Beckenham Junction & New Beckenham on the Hayes route.
Redhill - Tonbridge is certainly an underutlised route. A friend of mine remembers the days of BR and the Tonbridge - Reading service, ran with Tadpole sets before being replaced with DMMUs. He also told me that it used to take a very long time to traverse the route on the service, requiring the obvious reversal at Redhill. Arguably, it is still viable to run the service in this fashion, but the overal line speeds and reliability would have to improve, first in partof laying more thirs rail between Reigate and Guildford and then onwards through to around Winersh to fully connect the system to Reading. Unfortunaly, Network Rail has a massive phobia of laying down more third rail, in contrast to BR still laying it down when the SWML juice was extended to Weymouth in the mid - late 80s as well as the Redhill recieving the rail initially for the 92 diagrams when Dolland's Moor was opened (but was found the Dysons were too powerful for the substations to cope). It's more or less the main reason why the Ukfield and Marshlink still run on diesel to this day.
Speaking of Marshlink, I believe it suffers the same problems as the Rehill route, although faces much steeper challenge, being hamstrung with single track running between Ore & Appledore, reducing overal capacity. If double tracking was reinstated and electrification done, not only can services on the East Coastway from Brighton be extended beyond Ore to Ashford, but can then also serve as another diversionary line for Hastings services by simply running via Ashford nd run up the SEML from there (Markshlink was the original SER route to Hastings before the 1066 via Wells was built)
@@Pedro_Dactyl I recall the ton Redhill line itself was electrified in the 90s. I was at Redhill today and a class73 came to platform 2 from Tonbridge so the diversion must be possible. That is a very complex junction.
At Victoria station you can see this line on the original network map and other lines that were acted by Dr.Beeching in 1960s he was such a W**ker!
This line wasn't touched by beaching
Since electrification, projection of the service beyond the Redhil - Tonbridge "core," at various times Strood/Maidstone West tio Three Bridges, Tunbridge Wells to London via Edenbridge, Horsham to Tunbridge Wells, but these have all ceased now, as 2 trains per hour Victoria to Reigate was seen as more preferable; the Tonbridge service also rerminares at the very top end of Platform 1 at Redhill, inferring a long walk for most connections, except towards Mersthan/Purley/East Croydon.
I looked for a route from Upper Warlingham to Sevenoaks, avoiding London.
That's where this line comes into focus, together with the Uckfield Line and the South Eastern Main Line.
I wish there was a Redhill to Strood (or even Crawley to Rainham?) link via Maidstone. It could be the first part of a lesser redo of the old HighSpeed4Air idea.
Edit: Ah I should have waited till 2:30 before commenting. Had no idea there used to be a direct route!
Talking of Redhill, why does East Surrey Hospital (a 700 bed 5000 staff building) not have a station? Its literally 100m from the track and most of that is wasteland, it'd also give Earlswood and White bushes a transit link.
I did think about including a section about new stations, they are already pretty frequent along the line so I thought it wasn't the line's biggest issue. Honestly it sounds like a job that would be better served by busses but a station could also work.
Hourly service?!?!?! It could definitely be better, but at least that’s better than then Heritage Corridor commuter rail line in Chicago 😭
Honestly the frequency is fine for a local service, its the fact that it doesn't go anywhere meaningful, with the connections at either end being lacking
Could cut and cover be used for the link from the Redhill to North Downs line?
Hmm yeah I didn't think of a tunnel. but as both lines are elevated it would make sense to elevate it
For years I’ve had the idea to build a new orbital railway around London just beyond the M25 to supplement it and take traffic off it, giving people like me, who’d much rather use the train, the option to avoid using the M25 all together. The Tonbridge to Redhill line would become part of Orbirail, as I’ll call this new line and service, with a new spur line branching off just after Leigh and linking up with the Southeastern Mainline just north of Hildenbrough. It would also use the Redhill to Guildford line and the Sevenoaks to Swanley line. Your proposal for a new flyover at Redhill seems much more sensible than the tunnel I had planned to link the 2 lines together, much less expensive too.
This was a good video. Hope you like my idea for how the Tonbridge to Redhill line could be used more.
Living in Hertfordshire, only a few miles north of London, we definitely need something cutting across east to west, traffic is crazy. There used to be a number of lines that would be useful now that closed in the 50s and 60s like Braintree to Bishop's Stortford, Hertford - Welwyn Garden City - Luton and the Abbey Line used to extend to Hatfield. Some kind of rail link that parallels the Dartford Crossing is needed in my opinion or failing that, a new HS1 station at Purfleet which is near the M25 as an ideal place for a park and ride station. As for Sussex, can't help but think Three Bridges to Tunbridge Wells would be a busy line today. But how'd we make all these different routes into a circular railway would take a lot of will and effort, but until we have a government that looks ahead long term, it seems unlikely which is frustrating. Another line that feels under-utilised goes from Gatwick and Redhill to Reading via Guildford so the potential is definitely there.
@@aaronsmith9209 I’m so pleased you like my idea, thank you. I already know how to make all those lines into a circular route though, there are plenty of existing lines to the south of London that could be used. The northern half of Orbirail would need completely new lines built though.
@@trainlover16 I don't know about the other counties, but Hertfordshire County Council seems to be well aware of the East to West problem with public transport and their idea is the HERT between Harlow and Hemel Hempstead plus a branch to Watford but that seems to more of a bus rapid transit scheme which probably won't solve the problem as well as a train or light rail. Getting the different counties to work together always seems like the hard bit!
@@aaronsmith9209 Yeah lol.
Are you paying for that?
It's like a mini version of the SNCF's Lyon - Nantes line, which the SNCF treat like c$!p for many many years until it was going to blow-up in their faces. Improvement is being made, but boy, it's late to come! Sadly, the Lyon - Bordeaux line has too many end-on reversals to be improved in similar fashion, unless either a completly new line or smoothing out of the end-on reversals.
This really is a neglected route that would much benefit from improvements. The only time it sees more than one train an hour is when the SE Hastings-London route needs to avoid Sevenoaks, then two trains an hour run fast between Tonbridge and Redhill. These no longer call at Redhill (or Croydon), however, apparently due to a dispute with Southern wanting to charge spurious amounts of money to dispatch trains at those stations. This wasn't a problem until SE went into public ownership though...
Kent in general is only "well served" if you want to get directly to or directly away from London. If you want to make journeys anywhere else though where your destination isn't on the way to London, then the mentality is very much "that's your problem, enjoy one train an hour as long as it isn't cancelled" because the timetabling and frequency is incredibly hostile to non-London journeys. Services are not timetabled to make any logical connections at any of the historic interchanges, e.g. Orpington, Sevenoaks, Faversham, Ashford, Tonbridge. This makes life hard for any customers looking for any route between Tunbridge Wells/Tonbridge and Redhill, Ramsgate, Dover, Strood or any of the intermediate destinations.
I feel like timetables started to prioritise London over local journeys about 8 years ago, but a lot of cut-backs in service were made "due to Covid" but this was 4 years ago now. Passenger numbers are now pretty much back to pre-pandemic levels, but the times of day that people travel have changed, e.g. people work from home more days, commute on fewer days, and instead do a lot more off-peak, leisure and weekend travel than they did before Covid. This has likely resulted in less income through rail due to less Peak/Anytime/Season tickets and therefore less revenue, so cuts to service have remained even after Covid, hoping people won't realise the service is less frequent than before.
That Flyover at Redhill would not be possible, too tight and too steep. Instead I would build a high level line with platforms north south replacing the through lines for the Thameslink services. this would enable services from Reigate and Tonbridge to stop at Redhill attach/detach or reverse without causing conflicts with the north south traffic
That would be a much simpler solution, allowing trains to either reverse at Redhill Platforms 0 & 1 (which would also become bi-directional platforms for the London - Reigate service), or for the construction of a new chord which could also be diverted beneath the flyover for east-west services (including freight) to traverse Redhill without the need to reverse.
The flyover would be possible with enough length.
Even if, the station wouldn't be served any longer. So you couldn't change between this line and the Southcentral Main Line.
@@Wildcard71 The station could be served by a high level station.
@@Wildcard71 There could be station if you follow the same system as at some other stations with high and low levels. Also it isn't called the South Central Mainline but rather Brighton Mainline. Also it would allow freight for the first time to avoid London. At worst you are looking at 1:50 on the Downs side of the flyover as you only need to gain at most 8m of elevation as you already have a 1.5m differential between Flyover and Brighton Mainline ware you would cross. If you can start the Downs climb before Upper Bridge Road and/or reduced the amount it needs to climb then the grade can be reduced as on the Tonebridge side you have a lot more room to play with. Also I would install a Bay platform on the Tonebridge side of Redhill to remove conflicts.
I always found it amazing that only two lines straddle the Surrey/Kent border. Also as it was technically (or at least it appeared that way) an extension of the Reading-Redhill route it's crazy the way the station developed with the line coming in from the south and then out again south. Same reason the Reading-Gatwick drivers have to walk down the other end of the train at Redhill.
Great thinking - thank you. Anything which adds significantly to inter-regional passenger rail is to be welcomed!
Quick note on your proposed long-distance (Margate-Bristol & Dover-Birmingham) services: As I understand it, between Shalford Junction and the 4tph going Ash-wards, Guildford is already hella congested.
Oh, and unless they changed things very recently, the platform at Farnborough is way too short for the trains to consider stopping there. It'd be non-stop from Guildford to Wokingham.
Hmm the problem with not being able to stop at Farnborough is that it means people wouldn't be able to transfer onto the South Western line. Guildford may be an issue, but four trains an hour isn't the limit of what is possible, it is possible to go much higher, but if it isn't grade separations could be made, and potentially quad tracking that section could be worth it but honestly I doubt it. The Farnham - Guildford services could be cut to hourly, but honestly I don't know that area too well so don't really know how much demand that service gets
@@JezzTransport IIRC the announcements on the NDL suggest changing at Guildford for travel towards London, not Farnborough North. Considering the amount of trains already heading in towards London from the Southeast, and Guildford-Woking already being 3TPH, I don't imagine transferring there from southwards being too much of an issue. There's also a line from Reading to Basingstoke already, so I don't see that being too much of an issue either.
If SWR's timetables are up-to-date, then Farnborough Main only gets 3tph anyway with the Southampton and Weymouth/Bornemouth services skipping it entirely, so I think it wouldn't be that good of a transfer anyway without a major timetable change and/or the installation of a centre platform.
I've also double-checked the stations and, unless there are plans to change it soon, the platform at Farnborough North is still a whole three-and-a-half carriages long, so would need to be lengthened (or stopped at with a too-long train) if you plan to run the routes with any reasonable capacity. Considering that the faster trains along the route between Wokingham and Guildford only stop at North Camp and Blackwater, which are both double that length, the station seems like more of an afterthought than a proper interchange to the SWML - if Google Maps is to be believed, there isn't even a bus between Farnboroughs Main and North.
I can't say how much demand the Farnham-Guildford service gets, but I am under the impression that (and I may very well be wrong here) it is currently run using solo 450s when it used to be doubled pre-pandemic.
Or maybe I'm just being too cynical for no reason. I don't actually know how many people use Farnborough to transfer between lines. It might be more than I currently believe.
What resources do you use for the timetable? Interested in that 'pass' time functionality.
Also, the 4:12 flyover would prevent exchanges to Thameslink/airport.
The tonsbridge line doesnt have enough people for two different lines.
That is Realtime trains detailed mode
great video but whats with the windows movie make music?
The Redhill- Tonbridge line used to be run by southeastern until Dec 2008
A Ramsgate to Brighton service would be good.
It’s a shame that Southern don’t still operate the Tonbridge to Horsham via Redhill and Gatwick service as they did for a while back in the early 2000s.
"I propose you build a flyover" 😅
Southern is getting 387s from Great Northern.
Thanks, some interesting thoughts. The photo at Tonbridge in 1979 (at 2:30) is one of mine, by the way. Historically, there have been quite a few longer distance trains over the line, although these have gradually faded out over the years. Kent County Council have argued for a through service from (say) the Medway Towns and Maidstone to Gatwick Airport, and it was considered in one of the Kent Route Utilisation Studies but Network Rail concluded the potential benefit wouldn't justify such a service, rightly or wrongly. Unfortunately, the lack of Eurostar services at Ashford make through services via Redhill from there less attractive.
About a decade ago I commuted to Redhill on the North Downs Line from near Farnborough, so know Redhill station (before platform 0 ...).
The curve from Reigate to Redhill is on the limit of what the existing stock can manage - you wouldn't want to add points to connect a line to Tonbridge to it ...
A more useful link would be to have a curve from the Tonbridge side of Redhill station, crossing near the tunnel entrance and going over the Brighton main line on a bridge then dropping down to share platforms 0 & 1 with trains to Reigate and beyond. The link to platform 3 might need to be sacrificed depending on how gradients and distances work out (hard to tell from my armchair with only Google maps!).
Unless more could be changed to avoid trains having to reverse ... that would be preferable for goods trains, which can make use of this link (they do on the Reading link).
It's probably the Channel Tunnel's fault - if Redhill to Tonbridge hadn't been electrified to provide an alternative route it would probably have remained part of the Reading Guildford Redhill route
Wait until Sevenoaks tunnel gets the heavy maintenance is has needed for years, then you'll see the old "main line" get some use.
Long distance? Bring back the old Birkenhead - Eastbourne/Hastings/Ramsgate service. And rebuild and reinstate the Crowhurst spur onto the Oxted - East Grinstead.
The TON - Redhill service is Supplied by southern and operated by southeastern. its weird
It’s Southern stock using a mix of Southern and Southeastern crews
Ridiculous, this line is gunbarrel straight across the crest of the Weald, should be used.
Honestly 100 mph is the minimum I would expect from the alignment, could probably manage much higher, but I doubt it would be worth it