Correction. At 5:12 screenshots were mistakenly flipped during the edit. tRFC is LOWER w/ X3D Turbo Mode, tREFI is HIGHER. Sorry about that little hiccup. Realized a few seconds after posting live and I've added a Correction Card to the video as well. - Mike
I was interested in this feature, if it worked per game/app, meaning if you could disable/enable smt /ccd per game/ app instead of just simply disabling SMT/CCD and lowering trfc/ increasing trefi . But seeing that this is all it does, i'll stick with normal curve optimizer, memory oc with manual tightening timings to get better results.
There is a program called process lasso that forces the CPU Affinity for games. so you don't need to do these brain gymnastics tasks to get better perf. windows Scheduler sucks but Process lasso is a permanent fix. its $32 lifetime license or if you don't have the means to buy it, you can always sail the seas
@@Rentta Technically it still does unless you're using it for its intended purpose. Multicore-heavy tasks will suffer from lack of SMT (just see Intels Core Ultra which is slower allcore than anything past 12th gen but faster in select games).
@@Rentta That's true, but turning half of your CPU off makes it technically slower as well. This is just not too visible in lightly-threaded applications.
honestly seems like a good feature to have if you KNOW which games to use it with. if something like this didn't require a reboot it would be far more practical.
Yup. A correction card was added to the video and there's a pinned comment to. Totally a mistake on our part that happened when we moved the TEXT above the images but forgot to move the images themselves. :(
Awesome video, thanks for all the info. I just tested the turbo mode on my Aorus mainboard with my 9800x3d in 4-5 games and compared it to stock. I saw an uplift in every game. I'm gonna run it for a while and see how it goes
@@HardwareCanucks Hey. I'll try to show the data as short and understandable as possible here in this comment: Dragon Age The Veilguard - X3D Turbo - - Avg 153.1 FPS - Min 132.9 FPS - - Avg 165.6 (+8.2%) FPS - Min 140.3 FPS (+5.5%) --- Remnant 2 - X3D Turbo - - Avg 174.0 FPS - Min 140.5 FPS - - Avg 185.2 FPS (+6.4%) - Min 160.7 FPS (+14.4%) --- A Plague Tale Requiem - X3D Turbo - - Avg 198.8 FPS - Min 168.1 FPS - - Avg 206.8 FPS (+4%) - Min 166.6 FPS (-0.9%) --- Hogwarts Legacy - X3D Turbo - - Avg 168.0 FPS - Min 137.5 FPS - - Avg 179.8 FPS (+7%) - Min 151.7 FPS (+10.3%) --- I also tried Black Myth Wukong but couldn't get out of the GPU limit. The only negative number I got was the 0.1% Framerate in Dragon Age Veilguard. With X3D Turbo ON I saw there quite huge fps drops.
@AdamCountryman very true 😄 luckily I got it for free and only played it a bit to see how bad it really is. Now I'm just using it for benchmarking : D it's actually a quite CPU intensive game
10:02 Many thanks for testing Flight Sim. I was sure that disabling SMT would negatively impact MSFS2020 but apparently not, good to know I don't have to switch modes.
I know this will sound silly, but it's not clear - for the 9700X and 9600X, did you test turbo mode using the default 65W power mode or AMD's newish warranty approved 105W mode?
Out of box. Sorry for not being clear since I thought the Power numbers would make that evident. If we had tested in a modified way (105W mode), then it would have been clearly indicated.
@HardwareCanucks no problem, just wanted to be fully sure. Prob get the same mixed results either way at anyrate. And from what I understand, 105W mode doesn't really do anything for gaming. It does help a scotch with productivity though, and Turbo mode would certainly hurt that.
@@dkindig PBO on the 9800X3D (assuming you meant that) is rubbish. See TechYesCity's video on it. Either you allcore overclock it properly, you just undervolt or leave it stock.
I dont understand why this needs to he a bios thing. In Linux you can basically do this at runtime with affinity settings. My desktop is a VM with PCI passthrough and its startup script pins its QEMU threads to a single CCD. I dont lock off the SMT virtual cores though. I presume you can do something similar in Windows?
Thanks for the heads up, I don't have much of a reason to watch now. That would be the processor to test in this, given that it was the poster child for scheduling issues back in the day.
@@leonfrancis3418 Exactly my point. It would help to show the viewer how a chip with two CCDs performs for a mode literally created to benefit that! If they were going to review a 7x3d chip, one would think that would be the one!!!
And they would then release i9ks 15gen with Turbo enabled just for this chip because no one can afford it but people would buy it anyways even if it cost 800$ and intel would swim in all that money.
Ugh. Why would I want to turn off features of a CPU I paid for? Testing on Linux shows almost no downside to SMT, so it seems like scheduling across virtual threads or second CCDs is more of an OS issue.
Great data. I know how hard you worked to do this. My only problem with ANY CPU data is that Windows is such a mess that it doesn't bench reliably anymore. You can have one Windows installation and it works great, then another same supposed version of Windows installed and it's worse with the exact same setup parameters. Until Microsoft sorts this out, I consider any CPU data basically impossible to grasp any definitive conclusion and that's not any reviewer's fault. It's not just a 24H2 vs 23H2 problem. Or even a Windows 10 vs Windows 11 problem, it's purely a Windows problem.
What about 7800x3d vs 7950x3d? Are perfomance even now?
Месяц назад+2
This should work in runtime by altering thread scheduler parameters on OS level. I see no reason for Windows scheduler to pin all game threads to one CCD, it is not a rocket science, or there are some really bad programmers and management at M$.
Soooo, what I am getting from this is to buy a 9800X3D whenever I can afford it to make a major upgrade to my system, no matter what the digital turbo button does.
The 9700x and 9600x have a completely different character as in Low wattage and would suit ITX builds on an air cooler or small AIO, They do pack a punch at stock and are modestly priced especially after the recent discounts and it will be interesting going forward on how far these chips can be pushed for daily use. IMO these chips are very good for a quiet, cool, small factor system or a top spec middle tier build delivering around 90% or so of what a 7800X3D delivers at only 65/88 watts it's a madness really.
Can you guys try this with the 7950x3D? The reason the 7950X3D is worse than the 7800X3D in gaming is because of the dual CCD setup along with CCD #1 hooging almost all the 3D V cache. With the Turbo mode it should be faster than the 7800x3D. Not because of the X3D boost itself but everything being scheduled on CCD0 with 128mb of L3 cache. Compared to the 7800x3D which has 96mb of L3 cache, the 7950x3D should have 33.3% more L3 cache shared across 8 cores on CCD0. @Hardware Canucks pls try the 7950x3D next.
Each CCD of the 7950 has the same amount of L1 and L2 cache, just to be clear. These are only shown as double on 7950 parts due to the fact there are twice the number of CCDs, and the spec sheets show the sum of L1 and L2 on both of them. Disabling a CCD on the 7950x3d turns it into a 7800x3d with exactly the same L1, L2 and L3 cache amounts. We could absolutely not want the L1 and L2 of a second CCD shared over the infinity fabric!
with 7950x3d to have very good performance in gaming you need to activate the v-cache and you will see a massive improve in games and everything...i run 8 CPU on 5.5 ghz and the other 8 on 4.8 to 5 ghz and I must say temp are fantastic if you have watercooling and the outcome is wwowowowwowo....
The L3 is split, and one half gets the extra 64. So CCD0 has 96MB(32+64) and CCD1 has 32MB CCD0 is getting the same amount as the R7. What you may nbe thinking of is the 7900X3D vs the 7950X3D. It is getting the same L3 cache spread over 6 cores instead of 8 cores per CCD, so in instances where core scheduling is functioning properly the 12 core beats the 16 core in gaming.
@@douglasmurphy3266 The L3 isn't split on the 7950x3d, it is a single block on only one of the CCDs (that CCD being exactly the same as the 7800x3d's). Apologies if this was what you are already saying, I may have mis-interpreted the world "split." What I meant to be clear about is that turning off a CCD in the 7950x3d turns it into a 7800x3d with identical L1, L2 and L3 amounts; it does not have any more cache in this mode. OP said "... everything being scheduled on CCD0 with 128mb of L3 cache. Compared to the 7800x3D which has 96mb of L3 cache." They would be identical, i.e., 96Mb of v-cache + 32MB of "regular" L3 in both cases. I hope that clarifies.
@WSS_the_OG Each ccd has 32MB of L3, this is the "split". The 3D vcache module is 64MB and stacks on one CCD. Every Zen 3 and Zen 4 X3D is this exact config of 32MB + 64MB linked on top for its only CCD or primary CCD in the case of R9.
If the feature was available and marketed on the Ryzen 9000 series cpu launch, imo, it would have seen a much warmer reception and enticed more to upgrade to AM5 🥰✊💪😇👍
Windows and games should be able to extract top performance from a CPU without manual test-tweaking per game basis. Are we going to need AI for this, or they will properly code.
Thanks for this video. I heard about this turbo mode and wondered if I should change the motherboard I'm planning to get. Now I know it's just a sledgehammer hack around windows' inefficient scheduler (+ some slight tuning), I can confidently disregard it. I wonder if this partly explains some tests showing better AMD performance on Linux.
I'm not sure how much set up in configuration is involved with something like processor lasso, but it might be a good option for people wanting better gaming performance without losing all those threads for other workloads.
Hey HC just have a legitimate question here. I just purchased all my parts including a 7900xtx GPU and looking to pair it with a 7950x3d because the 9800x3d and 7800x3d are both completely sold out everywhere in my region. I have the Gigabyte b650 Elite AX ice which supports turbo mode. Since the 7950x3d is supported by turbo mode by my motherboard, would this be a better buy that those other 2 CPU's to make use of this tech from Gigabyte? Really interested as this would make me pull the trigger on this CPU. (Gaming in 1440p at all times, and do a mix of gaming+productivity).
Ultimately this is a band-aid that cripples the hardware in some ways when it should really be the OS and/or game developers coding the software to dynamically query and use the NUMA architecture of the CPU it runs on. Unfortunately, the consumer space is well behind the enterprise space where some of this has been worked out already as software might have to deal with hundreds of cores across multiple physical CPUs (like a CCD technically).
What's the point of buying a 16/12 core CPU if I need to half their core counts every time I want to game.. a lot of people buy the higher count cores to edit/stream WHILE gaming as well..
correct AMD is just lazy with this solution. Need to reboot and change bios settings when you want to game with max performance. They should have worked with Microsoft and solved this from the start.
I have a dual-boot system, one OS for work and one for gaming. I'd love to have this option automatically turn on when booting into the gaming installation.
i played with smt off with my 9800x3d and there’s a benefit with pbo and +200mhz where you can get it stable at max 5425mhz at bigger negative pbo settings. so for games that see benefit its very nice.
wow warhammer total war loves something about those non x3d chips. Seems to b e one of the games even the default 9800x3d lost. But 800fps+- range is def pushing a crazy high point where even things like game engine limits can start to factor in.
IDK how feasible it would be, if its even possible, but it would be nice if they could toggle this on for certain applications and off for ones where theres no benefits. Like Resizable BAR
Perhaps this could be added to the manufacturer's software stack. However, we recommend avoiding Armory Crate, Gigabyte Control Center, etc at all cost.
Have you guys test on a 7600x too if it works? I still use a b650 Asus Strix with new Bios update i see Turbo Mode Problem is still i can't click ok to accept is there any other option i need to turn off.
@@HardwareCanucks question is which Board you Guys use, every time i will enabled Turbo Mode on Asus Strix B650 Board to test my self i get Window with Notice but cant click OK. the bios only freezes with this option, and i still run Version 3057 on ROG STRIX B650-A GAMING WIFI.
Where do u get 800 fps in cs 2 ? When i compete 1080p 440 fps average fps.. 800 fps do not exist how u test ? I have 4090 7800x3d. Build in benchmarks are not relative as real gaming.
OK so these BIOS tweaks are 99% to mitigate the Windows scheduler. There's already software that can pin threads to specific CPU cores out there and "Ryzen optimized" games are supposed to do that by themselves. I've noticed that lowering tRFC is also beneficial on Ryzen 5000. It lowers DRAM latency quite a bit, but need thorough stress testing and a safety margin for increased temperatures (where the DRAM cells lose their charge faster).
I dont think this should be the case with variable differences with different motherboards. Amd should incorporate this feature in their software. Even if it’s a motherboard feature amd can itself change the smt/clock speeds from the software and give similar experiences to all the users.
Yeah a few seconds after posting this live I realized the images were flipped in the edit. There's a Correction Card as well as a pinned comment about it. Sorry. :(
To make this a really useful potential feature AMD needs to incorporate this into Radeon software so Turbo Mode can be enabled on a per game basis and not forced to be used all the time either on or off. A lot of people will not want to jump in and out of BIOS as their needs change. Putting this into Radeon software and allowed to be tied to specific games would make this much more meaningful in my opinion.
@@HardwareCanucks well sort of, I mean it is based from a feature it appears was introduced in a base BIOS update from AMD. I do get some of the "secret" sauce others are backing in could not be done this way, but the base system could be.
Pretty sure this isn't possible without a reboot, sadly the Windows scheduler tries to use everything it has available to it, rather than ignoring bits in software. Not to mention you couldn't get Gigabyte's aforementioned performance improvements in the video with memory timings without a reboot.
@@NANOTECHYT I understand, I am just saying the need to drop to BIOS, change it, use the PC and return the BIOS and change it again to do something else is just nuts. This implemented so you can turn it on and off for specific app usage, thus using it when most effective only, would be a much more practical solution.
@@ELCrisler It already exists, it's an option in Xbox Game bar and it works exactly as you would expect a software solution to work, it works horribly and has none of the memory improvements Gigabyte has done which you need to manually do in the BIOS anyway. Perhaps it has improved since the 7950X3D launch where it was broken and didn't detect stuff properly, but I highly doubt it since this is Microsoft and AMD having to work together and Microsoft make awful software. It takes 30 seconds to reboot these days, not 5 minutes like in 2002, so if you want to play a game, reboot into the BIOS, turn on Turbo mode, save and exit the BIOS and 20 seconds later you're on your desktop, you can launch steam and play the game you want and it works as intended. When you're done another 30 seconds later you've turned it off in the BIOS and you've rebooted. It's not that inconvenient. Get up while the computer is booting and get a drink and come back and you're on the login screen or desktop. I agree in a practical sense, it would be much easier to have it just be an automatic software option or a toggle in Windows Settings or in the Properties of the .exe, but the reality is you cannot get faster memory timings without a reboot or retraining of the memory and even if you don't bother with the memory stuff, Windows scheduler is terrible and buggy where it does whatever it wants even when you set affinity with Task Manager or third party tools and software anyway. In essence, Windows needs a total re-design to meet the modern architectures that it's using.
This should have a button in ryzen master or something to tunrn on or off before gaming if the game makes good results with it. Going into bios and setting it off or on everytime is kinda lame tbh
My x870e taichi lite runs my 9800x3d all the way up to 5.7ghz all core just using pbo mobo limits. asrock has an early and not very descriptive turbo mode. Performance mode: Cinebench v1 & cinbench v2. guessing it's geared towards benchmark results. This cpu while hitting 5.7ghz in games will only go up to 5.45ghz in synthetic benchmark tests.
Stellaris and Factorio aren't CPU bound in a conventional way. Much like Rocket League and Flight Sim, they are single thread focused and not really multi core aware. However, we will look into adding these because a lot of people have been asking for them.
@@HardwareCanucks noone is posting their results with PBO enabled for the 9800x3d it's all stock and perhaps with smt disabled with these "turbo mode" toggles (accomplishing the smt in one click)
SMT is simultaneous multi threading wherein a single virtual processing thread is created that's linked to each core. Thus, one core can functionally offer two threads CCD is a Core Compute Die that houses 8 processing cores. AMD uses a single Die in Ryzen 7 and 5 models and two of those Dies in Ryzen 9 CPUs which are linked via the Infinity Fabric. The IF is a link that ties together the various items in AMD CPUs.
@@HardwareCanucks Unless I read the charts wrong, benefit is is not that high (in my subjective opinion), and for that you must give up on all extra performance that's used outside of the games. This expensive CPU is not purchased for gaming in the first place, only to be crippled to 8c/8t, but even with default settings behaves pretty good in modern games.
Saying the feature is a Russian roulette gives the impression if you “mess up” your system is gone. Maybe next time say “flipping a coin” either it works, or it doesn’t on a certain game.
@@HardwareCanucks jk, good video! i'm an AMD fan but still playing indies on a 2600X i'll upgrade somewhen next year so it's good to hear what they got coming
What this really does, is marketing. This makes AMD set the discussion on hyper threading, not Intel. Like this very video. It seems like its real purpose, is to nullify the no-more-hyperthreading argument of Intel. As for all this complaining about AMD, just look at this vid. Insanely well played, making other other people do their marketing, for free.
Appreciate the effort, BUT 720p gaming benchmarks are pointless on new hardware in 2024. NOBODY with that hardware is playing games at that resolution.
This sounds more like handicapped mode. Welcome to the 2020s marketing. Also, from your task manager screenshot it also disables HT as you had 6 cores not 12
@ so why use it? U may as well just twik the affinity and manually set to that CCD. That way u actually gain more as windows can use the other cores for background processes. Vs having 6 cores that do gaming and background
Correction. At 5:12 screenshots were mistakenly flipped during the edit. tRFC is LOWER w/ X3D Turbo Mode, tREFI is HIGHER. Sorry about that little hiccup. Realized a few seconds after posting live and I've added a Correction Card to the video as well. - Mike
I was looking and this and had a wtf moment. Good thath this comment is here.
Offtop, you can gain the same by just optimising your RAM.
Which memory kit are you using?
I was interested in this feature, if it worked per game/app, meaning if you could disable/enable smt /ccd per game/ app instead of just simply disabling SMT/CCD and lowering trfc/ increasing trefi .
But seeing that this is all it does, i'll stick with normal curve optimizer, memory oc with manual tightening timings to get better results.
also 3:40 the x870e Hero is called Crosshair for AMD. Maximus is for Intel.
please create THREADRIPPER or EPYC pc for your renders (create 4-5 video from steps buy to render)
This should be controlled by the OS, not the motherboard. The scheduler should know how the CPU behaves and balance thread accordingly
Yeah. This is a work-around for Windows' scheduler issues which, even after countless updates, still fail over and over again.
I'll never use this on my 7950x because I'll have to turn it on and off in bios 5 times a day
There is a program called process lasso that forces the CPU Affinity for games. so you don't need to do these brain gymnastics tasks to get better perf. windows Scheduler sucks but Process lasso is a permanent fix. its $32 lifetime license or if you don't have the means to buy it, you can always sail the seas
Or at least make the Task manager affinity persistent across reboots.
@@pedro.alcatra You can create a script for that but yeah, it's a bummer it doesn't work out of the box.
now they should return the turbo button just for throwback's sake.
We need this. Badly.
was thinking the same! Maybe get an old 1992 case
Activating turbo back in those days made CPU run slower though. It was just confusingly named feature :D
@@Rentta Technically it still does unless you're using it for its intended purpose. Multicore-heavy tasks will suffer from lack of SMT (just see Intels Core Ultra which is slower allcore than anything past 12th gen but faster in select games).
@@Rentta That's true, but turning half of your CPU off makes it technically slower as well. This is just not too visible in lightly-threaded applications.
honestly seems like a good feature to have if you KNOW which games to use it with. if something like this didn't require a reboot it would be far more practical.
One can hope that it can eventually be a button press to toggle between the two options.
@@OHWACHACHAahhh yess the good old Turbo button
Solution: for CPU in /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu[0-9]*; do; if [[ $(cat "$CPU/topology/die_id") -eq 1 ]]; then echo 0 > $CPU/online; fi; done
wirh lunux you dont need a reboot
keep on doing your stuff the way you want to. For me it's refreshing to see another approach to things. Thank you.
5:09 These images are flipped! Lower TRFC is better, and so is higher TREFI for bandwith and latency.
Yup. A correction card was added to the video and there's a pinned comment to. Totally a mistake on our part that happened when we moved the TEXT above the images but forgot to move the images themselves. :(
Fantastic reporting, Mike! Thanks for all your hard work!
Mike is the best, thanks for the quality no BS testing!
Awesome video, thanks for all the info. I just tested the turbo mode on my Aorus mainboard with my 9800x3d in 4-5 games and compared it to stock. I saw an uplift in every game. I'm gonna run it for a while and see how it goes
Which games?
@@HardwareCanucks Hey. I'll try to show the data as short and understandable as possible here in this comment:
Dragon Age The Veilguard - X3D Turbo - - Avg 153.1 FPS - Min 132.9 FPS - - Avg 165.6 (+8.2%) FPS - Min 140.3 FPS (+5.5%) ---
Remnant 2 - X3D Turbo - - Avg 174.0 FPS - Min 140.5 FPS - - Avg 185.2 FPS (+6.4%) - Min 160.7 FPS (+14.4%) ---
A Plague Tale Requiem - X3D Turbo - - Avg 198.8 FPS - Min 168.1 FPS - - Avg 206.8 FPS (+4%) - Min 166.6 FPS (-0.9%) ---
Hogwarts Legacy - X3D Turbo - - Avg 168.0 FPS - Min 137.5 FPS - - Avg 179.8 FPS (+7%) - Min 151.7 FPS (+10.3%) ---
I also tried Black Myth Wukong but couldn't get out of the GPU limit. The only negative number I got was the 0.1% Framerate in Dragon Age Veilguard. With X3D Turbo ON I saw there quite huge fps drops.
@@striker241186thanks for the extra info. Looking forward to trying it on mine
@@striker241186 You should be embarrassed playing Veilguard. Shame on you.
@AdamCountryman very true 😄 luckily I got it for free and only played it a bit to see how bad it really is. Now I'm just using it for benchmarking : D it's actually a quite CPU intensive game
10:02 Many thanks for testing Flight Sim.
I was sure that disabling SMT would negatively impact MSFS2020 but apparently not, good to know I don't have to switch modes.
I know this will sound silly, but it's not clear - for the 9700X and 9600X, did you test turbo mode using the default 65W power mode or AMD's newish warranty approved 105W mode?
Out of box. Sorry for not being clear since I thought the Power numbers would make that evident. If we had tested in a modified way (105W mode), then it would have been clearly indicated.
@HardwareCanucks no problem, just wanted to be fully sure. Prob get the same mixed results either way at anyrate. And from what I understand, 105W mode doesn't really do anything for gaming. It does help a scotch with productivity though, and Turbo mode would certainly hurt that.
@@nukedathlonman If you unlock it and apply +200 in PBO the 9800 pulls 165W at full tilt...
@@dkindig PBO on the 9800X3D (assuming you meant that) is rubbish. See TechYesCity's video on it. Either you allcore overclock it properly, you just undervolt or leave it stock.
@@whohan779 Didn't ask you what you thought about PBO, was just saying that can push them to full power with no problem.
no 7950x3d is a weird thing to not test, especially in hindsight after some of the most recent 9950x3d leak
Good video , been waiting on some testings, but you guys should have included the 7950X3D as its both dual CCD with 8 cores and has 3D V-cache.
I dont understand why this needs to he a bios thing. In Linux you can basically do this at runtime with affinity settings. My desktop is a VM with PCI passthrough and its startup script pins its QEMU threads to a single CCD. I dont lock off the SMT virtual cores though. I presume you can do something similar in Windows?
You don't want it to be software based because then you'll be forced to install Armory Crate, GB Control Center, etc.
@@HardwareCanucksat least you would have the option to not have to reboot
Why did you guys not show 7950x3d? That seems like a must to show.
Why?
why would the cpu that's worse than the 7800x3d at gaming and worse than the 7950x at multicore tasks be a must show
Thanks for the heads up, I don't have much of a reason to watch now.
That would be the processor to test in this, given that it was the poster child for scheduling issues back in the day.
@@VinmonoBecause it's better than both at being a well-rounded product.
@@leonfrancis3418 Exactly my point. It would help to show the viewer how a chip with two CCDs performs for a mode literally created to benefit that! If they were going to review a 7x3d chip, one would think that would be the one!!!
if it was intel they would have limited this mode to latest i9s and call it a day
If it was on intel everyone would dipsh*ting about its performace and call it a day
And they would then release i9ks 15gen with Turbo enabled just for this chip because no one can afford it but people would buy it anyways even if it cost 800$ and intel would swim in all that money.
@@policeman5768deserved.
Actually if it was Intel, they would have made it a monthly subscription service, for a low fee of just $20 per month.
10:21 Those 1% gains in Spiderman are crazy! 😲
Yeah, but they're cancelled out by all the performance losses in other games.
Ugh. Why would I want to turn off features of a CPU I paid for?
Testing on Linux shows almost no downside to SMT, so it seems like scheduling across virtual threads or second CCDs is more of an OS issue.
it's a windows skill issue
Great data. I know how hard you worked to do this. My only problem with ANY CPU data is that Windows is such a mess that it doesn't bench reliably anymore. You can have one Windows installation and it works great, then another same supposed version of Windows installed and it's worse with the exact same setup parameters. Until Microsoft sorts this out, I consider any CPU data basically impossible to grasp any definitive conclusion and that's not any reviewer's fault. It's not just a 24H2 vs 23H2 problem. Or even a Windows 10 vs Windows 11 problem, it's purely a Windows problem.
What about 7800x3d vs 7950x3d? Are perfomance even now?
This should work in runtime by altering thread scheduler parameters on OS level. I see no reason for Windows scheduler to pin all game threads to one CCD, it is not a rocket science, or there are some really bad programmers and management at M$.
MSI has it. Its called X3D Gaming Mode. My x870e Carbon has it, but I get worse performance on my 9800x3d outside of games.
Interesting. At the time of filming neither MSI nor ASRock had it in the BIOSes we have. Guess a week or so makes all the difference. :)
Soooo, what I am getting from this is to buy a 9800X3D whenever I can afford it to make a major upgrade to my system, no matter what the digital turbo button does.
The 9700x and 9600x have a completely different character as in Low wattage and would suit ITX builds on an air cooler or small AIO, They do pack a punch at stock and are modestly priced especially after the recent discounts and it will be interesting going forward on how far these chips can be pushed for daily use. IMO these chips are very good for a quiet, cool, small factor system or a top spec middle tier build delivering around 90% or so of what a 7800X3D delivers at only 65/88 watts it's a madness really.
Can you guys try this with the 7950x3D? The reason the 7950X3D is worse than the 7800X3D in gaming is because of the dual CCD setup along with CCD #1 hooging almost all the 3D V cache. With the Turbo mode it should be faster than the 7800x3D. Not because of the X3D boost itself but everything being scheduled on CCD0 with 128mb of L3 cache. Compared to the 7800x3D which has 96mb of L3 cache, the 7950x3D should have 33.3% more L3 cache shared across 8 cores on CCD0.
@Hardware Canucks pls try the 7950x3D next.
Each CCD of the 7950 has the same amount of L1 and L2 cache, just to be clear. These are only shown as double on 7950 parts due to the fact there are twice the number of CCDs, and the spec sheets show the sum of L1 and L2 on both of them. Disabling a CCD on the 7950x3d turns it into a 7800x3d with exactly the same L1, L2 and L3 cache amounts. We could absolutely not want the L1 and L2 of a second CCD shared over the infinity fabric!
with 7950x3d to have very good performance in gaming you need to activate the v-cache and you will see a massive improve in games and everything...i run 8 CPU on 5.5 ghz and the other 8 on 4.8 to 5 ghz and I must say temp are fantastic if you have watercooling and the outcome is wwowowowwowo....
The L3 is split, and one half gets the extra 64. So CCD0 has 96MB(32+64) and CCD1 has 32MB
CCD0 is getting the same amount as the R7.
What you may nbe thinking of is the 7900X3D vs the 7950X3D. It is getting the same L3 cache spread over 6 cores instead of 8 cores per CCD, so in instances where core scheduling is functioning properly the 12 core beats the 16 core in gaming.
@@douglasmurphy3266 The L3 isn't split on the 7950x3d, it is a single block on only one of the CCDs (that CCD being exactly the same as the 7800x3d's). Apologies if this was what you are already saying, I may have mis-interpreted the world "split."
What I meant to be clear about is that turning off a CCD in the 7950x3d turns it into a 7800x3d with identical L1, L2 and L3 amounts; it does not have any more cache in this mode. OP said "... everything being scheduled on CCD0 with 128mb of L3 cache. Compared to the 7800x3D which has 96mb of L3 cache." They would be identical, i.e., 96Mb of v-cache + 32MB of "regular" L3 in both cases. I hope that clarifies.
@WSS_the_OG Each ccd has 32MB of L3, this is the "split". The 3D vcache module is 64MB and stacks on one CCD. Every Zen 3 and Zen 4 X3D is this exact config of 32MB + 64MB linked on top for its only CCD or primary CCD in the case of R9.
I really wish you'd have tested the 7950x3d
If the feature was available and marketed on the Ryzen 9000 series cpu launch, imo, it would have seen a much warmer reception and enticed more to upgrade to AM5 🥰✊💪😇👍
great video!
Windows and games should be able to extract top performance from a CPU without manual test-tweaking per game basis. Are we going to need AI for this, or they will properly code.
Ironically, Ai would simply take more processing power.
Thanks for this video. I heard about this turbo mode and wondered if I should change the motherboard I'm planning to get. Now I know it's just a sledgehammer hack around windows' inefficient scheduler (+ some slight tuning), I can confidently disregard it. I wonder if this partly explains some tests showing better AMD performance on Linux.
5:15 doesnt make any sense. Higher TRFC is higher latency and not lower. Maybe the pictures got swapped while editing?
Yup. There's a correction card as well as a pinned comment about it. We moved the text without flipping the images too. :(
@@HardwareCanuckswould You Turn on x3d Turbo Mode on ryzen 7800x3d With asus b650e-e for Call of Duty black ips6?
I'm not sure how much set up in configuration is involved with something like processor lasso, but it might be a good option for people wanting better gaming performance without losing all those threads for other workloads.
MSI's version is called "X3D Gaming Mode".
Yeah was going to say. Got it for the X870 Tomahawk in the latest bios.
Does the x670 Tomahawk hás it?
Can confirm, I have the X870-P Pro Wifi
@@tkgg Nice! Have my x870 THawk and 9800x3d sitting next to me, just waiting for new cooler to be delivered and I can slap it together.
exactly what I needed
Will it work on the Non-X 65w processors?
It depends on which motherboard but if you use an ASUS / RoG one, technically yes according to our conversations with the brand.
Hey HC just have a legitimate question here. I just purchased all my parts including a 7900xtx GPU and looking to pair it with a 7950x3d because the 9800x3d and 7800x3d are both completely sold out everywhere in my region. I have the Gigabyte b650 Elite AX ice which supports turbo mode. Since the 7950x3d is supported by turbo mode by my motherboard, would this be a better buy that those other 2 CPU's to make use of this tech from Gigabyte? Really interested as this would make me pull the trigger on this CPU. (Gaming in 1440p at all times, and do a mix of gaming+productivity).
Thanks for the insight
This memory thing that Gigabyte is turning on, can it be done on the 5800x3d? I can't hear what he called it. Xbo high memory timing or something...
Tested on all CPUs? The most interesting ones here would be the the dual CCD x3D chips and they aren't even tested.
Ultimately this is a band-aid that cripples the hardware in some ways when it should really be the OS and/or game developers coding the software to dynamically query and use the NUMA architecture of the CPU it runs on. Unfortunately, the consumer space is well behind the enterprise space where some of this has been worked out already as software might have to deal with hundreds of cores across multiple physical CPUs (like a CCD technically).
What's the point of buying a 16/12 core CPU if I need to half their core counts every time I want to game.. a lot of people buy the higher count cores to edit/stream WHILE gaming as well..
Because you have the high core count when you need it and the frequencies when you don't.
correct AMD is just lazy with this solution. Need to reboot and change bios settings when you want to game with max performance. They should have worked with Microsoft and solved this from the start.
@dimwillow7113 Yeah sadly Microsoft has a favourite so I don't that will ever happen (Intel)
MSI B650 motherboard has no Turbo Mode?
At 3.37. Chart names are wrong. They have listed the ROG X870 as Maximus. Maximus is Intel boards. This should read Crosshair Hero
Yeah we listed a correction.
I have a dual-boot system, one OS for work and one for gaming. I'd love to have this option automatically turn on when booting into the gaming installation.
great video! thank you :)
What brand is that sweater? Looks great, nice texture.
Haha. Its from a Montreal based company called Frank and Oak.
@@HardwareCanucks THANK YOU!
i played with smt off with my 9800x3d and there’s a benefit with pbo and +200mhz where you can get it stable at max 5425mhz at bigger negative pbo settings. so for games that see benefit its very nice.
The Asrock version of this works on my R9 7900 non-x but the fact that you have to reboot every time is jut not worth the trouble.
If for anything, turning on X3D mode is really good for lowering temps and power consumption.
Well I guess it's a bit bad timing. Because ASRock just dropped their implementation of Turbo Mode just today
Yeah I think I'll add that to the corrections tab RUclips has.
On my 9800 x3d with turbo mode on, I get worse performance on 1440p timespy. Very confusing. Aorus gigabyte.
My games crash After enabling turbo mode 🤔 MSI X670e gaming wifi MB
How is this different from core parking via the xbox game bar? Is it pretty much the same?
Core parking is more dynamic. This is literally on / off.
@@HardwareCanucks ok ty
It's a shame you didn't do any benchmarks involving CAD modelling and rebuild times...
wow warhammer total war loves something about those non x3d chips. Seems to b e one of the games even the default 9800x3d lost. But 800fps+- range is def pushing a crazy high point where even things like game engine limits can start to factor in.
What's the memory CL ?
IDK how feasible it would be, if its even possible, but it would be nice if they could toggle this on for certain applications and off for ones where theres no benefits. Like Resizable BAR
Perhaps this could be added to the manufacturer's software stack. However, we recommend avoiding Armory Crate, Gigabyte Control Center, etc at all cost.
Wouldn't using process lasso be massively superior to this?
Technically, yes though much more involved from a setup and maintenance standpoint.
Have you guys test on a 7600x too if it works? I still use a b650 Asus Strix with new Bios update i see Turbo Mode Problem is still i can't click ok to accept is there any other option i need to turn off.
Yes it works on a 7600X on the ASUS boards we've tested.
@@HardwareCanucks question is which Board you Guys use, every time i will enabled Turbo Mode on Asus Strix B650 Board to test my self i get Window with Notice but cant click OK. the bios only freezes with this option, and i still run Version 3057 on ROG STRIX B650-A GAMING WIFI.
Where do u get 800 fps in cs 2 ? When i compete 1080p 440 fps average fps.. 800 fps do not exist how u test ? I have 4090 7800x3d. Build in benchmarks are not relative as real gaming.
We aren't testing built in benchmarks. We are testing in Dust 2 with bots.
@@HardwareCanucks lol, test vs humans and baggage map :D U will see maybe u get 300 fps average maybe.
@@HardwareCanucks There is an FPS benchmark map in the Steam Workshop. Could you try and see if its worth using in these videos?
OK so these BIOS tweaks are 99% to mitigate the Windows scheduler. There's already software that can pin threads to specific CPU cores out there and "Ryzen optimized" games are supposed to do that by themselves. I've noticed that lowering tRFC is also beneficial on Ryzen 5000. It lowers DRAM latency quite a bit, but need thorough stress testing and a safety margin for increased temperatures (where the DRAM cells lose their charge faster).
Correct. Windows is shit. Tell us something we don't know. 🙃
@@HardwareCanucks ..win 98SE is OP
theres no maximus hero x870e?
Where's that wallpaper on the computer behind you from?
Wallhaven. It's an amazing wallpaper.
It is out for ASRock now.
I dont think this should be the case with variable differences with different motherboards. Amd should incorporate this feature in their software. Even if it’s a motherboard feature amd can itself change the smt/clock speeds from the software and give similar experiences to all the users.
How about dual CCD ryzens with just SMT off? 32 threads are way too much for most games, while 16 real threads should be optimal.
You'd still get the issue we highlighted with some tasks being shunted to the second CCD.
is gigabyte good motherboard manufacturer?
This just seems like it’s a one click for people who don’t wanna mess with ram timings, overclocks, PBO etc.
But the aorus turbo mode raised tRFC and lowered tREFI. That should net less performance not more performance. That doesn't make sense
@@tresnugget The images are just flipped
Yeah a few seconds after posting this live I realized the images were flipped in the edit. There's a Correction Card as well as a pinned comment about it. Sorry. :(
Process Laso or equivalent app.
To make this a really useful potential feature AMD needs to incorporate this into Radeon software so Turbo Mode can be enabled on a per game basis and not forced to be used all the time either on or off. A lot of people will not want to jump in and out of BIOS as their needs change. Putting this into Radeon software and allowed to be tied to specific games would make this much more meaningful in my opinion.
This isn't an AMD feature though.
@@HardwareCanucks well sort of, I mean it is based from a feature it appears was introduced in a base BIOS update from AMD.
I do get some of the "secret" sauce others are backing in could not be done this way, but the base system could be.
Pretty sure this isn't possible without a reboot, sadly the Windows scheduler tries to use everything it has available to it, rather than ignoring bits in software. Not to mention you couldn't get Gigabyte's aforementioned performance improvements in the video with memory timings without a reboot.
@@NANOTECHYT I understand, I am just saying the need to drop to BIOS, change it, use the PC and return the BIOS and change it again to do something else is just nuts.
This implemented so you can turn it on and off for specific app usage, thus using it when most effective only, would be a much more practical solution.
@@ELCrisler It already exists, it's an option in Xbox Game bar and it works exactly as you would expect a software solution to work, it works horribly and has none of the memory improvements Gigabyte has done which you need to manually do in the BIOS anyway. Perhaps it has improved since the 7950X3D launch where it was broken and didn't detect stuff properly, but I highly doubt it since this is Microsoft and AMD having to work together and Microsoft make awful software.
It takes 30 seconds to reboot these days, not 5 minutes like in 2002, so if you want to play a game, reboot into the BIOS, turn on Turbo mode, save and exit the BIOS and 20 seconds later you're on your desktop, you can launch steam and play the game you want and it works as intended. When you're done another 30 seconds later you've turned it off in the BIOS and you've rebooted. It's not that inconvenient. Get up while the computer is booting and get a drink and come back and you're on the login screen or desktop.
I agree in a practical sense, it would be much easier to have it just be an automatic software option or a toggle in Windows Settings or in the Properties of the .exe, but the reality is you cannot get faster memory timings without a reboot or retraining of the memory and even if you don't bother with the memory stuff, Windows scheduler is terrible and buggy where it does whatever it wants even when you set affinity with Task Manager or third party tools and software anyway. In essence, Windows needs a total re-design to meet the modern architectures that it's using.
This should have a button in ryzen master or something to tunrn on or off before gaming if the game makes good results with it. Going into bios and setting it off or on everytime is kinda lame tbh
what about CS2? is it usefull in this game?
We have a benchmark for it. ;)
@HardwareCanucks bring it on :)
9:32
You should check this by yourself because i saw someone test SMT off on 7800x3D in CS and got high fps spikes.
Thanks for telling us what the feature actually does, cutting through the marketing BS. 🙂
My x870e taichi lite runs my 9800x3d all the way up to 5.7ghz all core just using pbo mobo limits. asrock has an early and not very descriptive turbo mode. Performance mode: Cinebench v1 & cinbench v2. guessing it's geared towards benchmark results. This cpu while hitting 5.7ghz in games will only go up to 5.45ghz in synthetic benchmark tests.
Please use CPU bound games for benchmarking CPU's, i.e. stellaris/factorio
Stellaris and Factorio aren't CPU bound in a conventional way. Much like Rocket League and Flight Sim, they are single thread focused and not really multi core aware. However, we will look into adding these because a lot of people have been asking for them.
@@HardwareCanucks Correct, they are single threaded CPU bound specifically, that would be great thanks.
What about PBO???
What about it?
@@HardwareCanucks noone is posting their results with PBO enabled for the 9800x3d it's all stock and perhaps with smt disabled with these "turbo mode" toggles (accomplishing the smt in one click)
I run my PC with Proxmox as my OS.
Pass the first CCD of my 7950X3D to a gaming VM (Linux) and give other VMs access to CDD2.
Whats smt and ccd
SMT is simultaneous multi threading wherein a single virtual processing thread is created that's linked to each core. Thus, one core can functionally offer two threads
CCD is a Core Compute Die that houses 8 processing cores. AMD uses a single Die in Ryzen 7 and 5 models and two of those Dies in Ryzen 9 CPUs which are linked via the Infinity Fabric. The IF is a link that ties together the various items in AMD CPUs.
The new bios has a new mode in it was just updated few dàys ago😊
I am not sure but I thought that I saw a turbo mode option on my asrock motherboard.
They just rolled it out yesterday LOL
It boggles my mind that disabling cores improves CPU performance for games. Clearly games don't utilize cores as they should do.
I hate these left and right graph layouts. Definitely harder to read than the standard bar graph to the right
Its so we can increase the amount of information and avoid long, pointless monologues. Then again, you can pause at any point. :)
Please do a video regarding PBO
We did.
It will be a forgettable feature unless it can be done directly inside OS environment..
No reason to turn it on on 9950x
I'd argue that's the CPU that most needs it.
@@HardwareCanucks Unless I read the charts wrong, benefit is is not that high (in my subjective opinion), and for that you must give up on all extra performance that's used outside of the games. This expensive CPU is not purchased for gaming in the first place, only to be crippled to 8c/8t, but even with default settings behaves pretty good in modern games.
It's not really worth getting anything past 8 cores for gaming.
Saying the feature is a Russian roulette gives the impression if you “mess up” your system is gone. Maybe next time say “flipping a coin” either it works, or it doesn’t on a certain game.
RUclipsrs and traditional media love to exaggerate and fear monger.
Thanks for the lexicon suggestions. It was more referring to the fact that if you turn it on, it could destroy performance in some titles. But sure.
its the same thing ryzen master does with game mode......the EXACT same thing, it even has to reboot.
I don't think this option is meaningful, and it certainly shouldn't be a BIOS option. Rather, the scheduler in Windows needs to improve.
Sure but until that point where the Windows Scheduler improves, hardware manufacturers are doing everything they can to properly up performance.
Asus x870 roll out a couple days ago or weeks don't remember rn.. turbo mode gaming I think is. Called
All i hear is that some games lose performance, so its a no from me
Then you missed all the games that benefit from it.
i paid for the whole cpu - i'm gonna use the whole cpu
But in some cases using the whole CPU will hold you back.
@@HardwareCanucks jk, good video! i'm an AMD fan but still playing indies on a 2600X i'll upgrade somewhen next year so it's good to hear what they got coming
My rog strix b650e-f has new turno mode in bios when i updated it😊and yes was a big difference with 7 7700 non x
I don't think I'll ever play at 720p
The idea behind 720p is to reduce GPU bottlenecking and allow us to actually see which CPU is best.
What this really does, is marketing. This makes AMD set the discussion on hyper threading, not Intel. Like this very video. It seems like its real purpose, is to nullify the no-more-hyperthreading argument of Intel. As for all this complaining about AMD, just look at this vid. Insanely well played, making other other people do their marketing, for free.
Should let you Toggle on and off in software
I don't think it's worth it, unless you really use it for pure gaming
Appreciate the effort, BUT 720p gaming benchmarks are pointless on new hardware in 2024. NOBODY with that hardware is playing games at that resolution.
its for emphasizing CPU contribution to fps
This sounds more like handicapped mode. Welcome to the 2020s marketing.
Also, from your task manager screenshot it also disables HT as you had 6 cores not 12
Yeah that's what I said. It turns off SMT as well.
@ so why use it? U may as well just twik the affinity and manually set to that CCD.
That way u actually gain more as windows can use the other cores for background processes.
Vs having 6 cores that do gaming and background