Forgot to add one thing... part of what also makes the musical sequences work so well with Harley's character is that she sees Joker and that part of Arthur's life as a performance. She loves the thrill of it and the fantasy. Which is why we get so many musical sequences where they look like they are performing for a crowd.
Most of humanity is really dumb. The movie was awesome. I am glad I heard so much negativity before I saw it because my expectations were so low it ended up pleasantly surprising me. The criticisms of the musical parts not being great are so dumb. It wasn't meant to be Oacar winning musical performances, but a depiction of imperfect emtional states and madness through imperfect musical expression.
It wasn't terrible but I never felt he went all out into Joker mode. I usually don't like musicals but this one was bearable in that sense. It just felt like it didnt go all out and with Joker you do expect that tbh.
I agree with your review, I'm surprised no one has mentioned this but Arthur is only "Joker" when he is off his meds. In the 2nd movie It literally shows him taking medication to supress the urge to be Joker. That's is what the songs are fantasy scenes are about, basically he is NEVER Joker from the first film In the second film. Even the courtroom scene he just did that to rile up the fans watching the trail until Gary's testified. Then Lee dumps him when he won't be the Joker she wants. Brilliant movie. No one gets it.
Stunning and brilliant movie. I see people throwing tantrums because they didn’t get the movie they expected and wanted. To each their own. I liked this better than the first one.
Tf? The parallel Isn’t genius it’s so on your face during the movie, not subtle at all. Also this movie contradicts Arthur’s evolution from the first movie. Movie has terrible writing and is inconsistent
@@elhombredelsaco3995 Want to be more specific? Because from what I see, realistically this is exactly what would happen to him. There is no way Arthur Fleck from the first movie could ever turn into the comic book Joker. Because Joker isn't real, while Arthur Fleck is as close as it gets to "real" in fiction. Frankly some of the stuff that does happen in the movie like him and Harley setting the theater on fire or the court room explosion we're taking it to the brink of believability.
@@verpen8108 Arthur was established to be joker by the end of the first movie. It’s why he kills the psychiatrist just for giggles and dances right after. But nope, here they say it’s just a fantasy. They expect us to feel bad then for someone who fantasizes about killing innocent people? I already knew this joker wasn’t gonna be comic book joker. But by the end of the first one he was as close as he could get, and they ruined even that.
Yes! I'm so happy that people like you are really sticking up for this film. I liked the first one a lot but this one blew my mind. I absolutely loved it. Thanks for recognising this masterpiece.
Finally, someone gets it! Everyone complaining about the lack of action or clever violence in the style of the Joker misses the point-they themselves are like Lee Quinzel. That was the fun part of the movie, and it went over everyone's heads. Like Lee, they came to see the Joker, not Arthur Fleck. The whole film revolves around Arthur’s fantasy of becoming the Joker, something he strives to bring to life. However, he never becomes the Joker they imagine. The Joker is just a symbol of rebellion, created by the people as an escape from their miserable lives. Arthur is nothing but an accidental catalyst. His followers know him only as the Joker, through the eyes of the media and his actions-not as Arthur. They don’t care about Arthur. Lee joins the mental ward just to manipulate him into becoming the Joker she saw in the news and on TV. The moment Arthur accepts that he’s not who everyone thinks he is, Lee abandons him. The audience expected a DC Joker massacre, but there wasn’t one. There is no Joker, and just like Lee, the audience discards Arthur. The second movie’s goal was to remind everyone that Arthur is not an anti-hero; he’s a mentally ill man who became famous for his bizarre crimes (I know this portrayal of mental illness isn't perfect, but it's a hyperbole meant to simplify the concept introduced in the first movie). The focus of Joker is that Arthur is a victim of abuse-from his mother and from society. He's neglected, treated horribly, and lacks any kind of support system. He’s simply a victim in clown makeup at his breaking point, who happened to stumble upon a gun. Afterward, he finds himself in the middle of a perfect storm, where people latch onto the rebellious enigma they see on the news. For the first time, he feels seen, which fuels his desire for attention and adoration. Arthur is no criminal mastermind; he didn’t even intend to kill Murray. Joker, to Arthur, is just a dissociative state, a mask of confidence through which he can release his pent-up rage. But to Gotham, Joker is the voice of chaos, rebellion, and hope for the underdogs of society. Joker was never a real person-just a symbol that people could adopt to finally feel seen and heard. That’s why it makes sense for the audience to feel deceived when there’s no violence in the movie-there is no Joker, only Arthur, who had a psychotic break in the first film. Nobody cares about Arthur-that’s the core of the Joker series! His mental health is overshadowed by the Joker persona! He may be a criminal, but he’s not a mastermind villain. I really enjoyed how the Joker movement in the film sets up the origins (in this universe) of the real Joker, Harley Quinn, and other villains. I doubt they’ll make movies about them, but you can infer what happens next. Sure, there were a few too many musical moments, but they were beautifully done, and a great way to express Arthur’s inner struggles, joys, and delirium. I do wish they had developed Lee more, though. That's all folks
“Victim in clown makeup” uh- uh- so Arthur killing the psychiatrist at the end of the first movie for giggles and dancing right after is just insecure arthy putting up an act? Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but there’s no denying it contradicts the first movie and ruins Arthur’s evolution with terrible writing
theres at least two shots in the trailers, that immediately spring to mind, that got cut out of the movie and include lee- but in regards to the the way, the film is edited, it made sense limiting her role, though i agree with wanting to see more of her, which i felt, was kind of the point, because after seeing it twice, i wouldnt necessarily take all the narrative, that isnt distinctly marked as dream scenario, to be taken at face value. ill drop some examples. im convinced that the narrative of the movie was either severely changed up, during the editing, or theres at least three harley scenes, two of them in close proximity to each other, that are in arthurs mind alone and not distinctly marked, as delusion....pretty sure, that despite phillips course correcting, by explaining, that certain scenes were real (which he also did, after the first movie) you cant take all of the surface story, at face value- one of the more obvious examples is harley telling him, shes pregnant and after the close to you sequence, hes dancing inside his cell, in a way, that this time around, suggested he might imagine the song in his head, due to the way, it cut immediately from the song, to the shot of arthur, dancing in dreamlike manner (and i think his delusion stars with the sex scene, hes thrown into solitary confinement, imagines them dancing on the rooftop, shes already there, when he wakes up, he makes it a point, to tell her, hes not taking his meds anymore, before they have sex and later on, in the courtroom, what causes him to snap and fire mary anne? the suggestion, during sophies testimony, that arthurs a virgin)- i also picked out, that at least half the time, if not more, the next song title, or a lyric, is suggested in the dialogue, by a person, that usually isnt arthur, or lee (an example would be mary anne, telling him she knows, what its like to love somebody, after telling arthur about lee and then him dreaming up the performance of to love somebody, during which arthur is shot) and while on the topic of that joker and harley show performance, it starts with both singing to love somebody and ends with only arthur, singing to last lines of build a mountain, that lee previously sang solo- theres a clear throughline here, in her taking over, the shared (?) fantasy and him ending up dying alone, imagining her- which leads us, to the divisive ending- the visitor, at the end, was likely just a ruse from the guards- to clear that up, in the last scene, jackie tips his hat to arthur, in a mocking way, to suggest hes saying adios, then he sings the song we three (my echo, my shadow and me) and one of the other guards, tells him to stop singing the song, seemingly finding it, to be unnecessarily macabre. notice also, how the guard, that tells arthur to follow him, looks back only once and is way ahead of arthur and that the proto-joker inmate doesnt come out, of the same room, where the other guys watch tv. and when he finally stabs arthur and he imagines singing the last part of the lyrics, to build a mountain, while imagining lee kills him, he sings Ah, what a fine young son to take my place (suggesting that the pregnancy of harley always foreSHADOWed the inmate at the end, taking up the joker persona)- on a sidenote, i found it interesting, that so many people hate this ending and are cool with the ending of dark knight rises, which goes a similar taking up the mantle route, with john robin blake, taking over as batman, a symbol, which is very much specific to bruce. true, we knew john blake for a whole movie, but that only deepened my conviction, that him taking up the mantle would never work and i wouldve preferred rises ending, much more, without the last couple of shots, showing bruce chilling in italy, with selina, although foreshadowed, felt like a cheap solution, because they knew, they couldnt kill off batman. back to the main topic at hand- The Scene, in which Lee does her Harley Makeup, in Arthurs old Flat, is purposefully not being portrayed, as iconic, as the originasl Birth of the Joker Persona. Its about mirroring the first, the whole Movie does this and shatters the Pieces, in its final Act. I feel, that not only Todd Phillips, but his Lead Actors, purposefully went for broke, to make an artistic Statement and cant disagree more, with this being just some cynical Cash Grab, they mustve known the Risk involved, by doubling down, on making an Outsider Movie, on a deeper (Meta) Level, than its Predecessor. And in this Day and Age, where honest, romantic Sentiment is often deemed Cringe and the Objective is about proving People right (through Strength of Numbers, if were talking Social Media, which very much includes RUclips), Phillips did exactly that. Whether the Film made Bank, or lost Money, the Response to what is really mostly the final Act, (as a Claim to critique the Fanbase and that the whole Film somehow only exists, for that Purpose)- the Response pretty much plays out, in a Way, where so called Content Creators are proud, of their own Mob Mentality (some proudly proclaiming, they havent even seen it....Titles like i watched x, so you dont have to, etc)- they ridicule Phillips Film, without, in Fact, getting it (to paraphrase the first one)- theyre arguably ridicule themselves further, if they feel strongly, about the way, it portrays them, as unhinged lunatics. and no, i wouldnt go this deep, into analysis, of the film, if i just wanted to hate on fanboys (who 1. would probably never read all of that and 2.i am a fanboy myself, its pointless to be a purist, when it concerns characters, that have been around for 85 years and interpreted in so many different ways, already)
It occurs to me that a lot of people were really angry in the first movie because the Joker doesn’t need an origin story about a guy named Arthur Fleck Now we have a Joker that no one knows about at the end of the movie and they are still angry People want to see Batman I guess not realizing that he’s 12 years old But fill the hole because if that kid is in his early 20s, he’ll only be in his mid to late 30s when Bruce is Batman You got Harvey Dent You got Harley Quinn And she studying to be a psychologist I really don’t know what else people want I liked it
I liked it. I don't understand the amount of hate it is getting. This character is too interesting to not find something to like about this. I love the first one (just rewatched it last night) and do find it very empowering to see him realize his potential as the Joker. And while these things are bad, there is always a reason that you understand for him to be killing. He is hurt. And with all that has happened to him in his life, you do side with him a lot of the time. (Or at least i do. Maybe im a bit of a psycho.) But one of the things i has just told myself i wanted from this sequel (a thing that i didn't think i would actually get) was to humanize him and break him down. Kind of redeeming him in the process. And they actually did that! While that Joker High is very powerful, and it is a lot of fun; at the end of the day, i wanted Arthur to find his way. And i love that we get to see a bit of that in here. He is a human. He is broken. He is not a superhero. Nor is he a supervillain. He's just Arthur. Great stuff. Sad stuff. But real stuff. This was a great journey with the character. Just wish he got a happier ending.
Here's the deal, people were already on guard because of the musical aspects and to top it off the story todd wanted to tell from the 1st movie of the Arthur who was empowered at the end becoming Joker, turns out that Arthur according to this movie doesn't get a happy ending in the name of realism. Arthur is weak broken and alone. This movie made that 1000% clear whereas the 1st one gave you hope in the form of the Joker persona. And it's actually funny thinking about, this movie ended the exact opposite and yet the same as last one. Arthur isn't Joker at the end of this one, instead the Joker mythos he created, the same one that killed the Waynes "you get what you f*cking deserve" in the form of Joe Chill, killed the very man who ignited it in the form of the now presumed "Joker." I think I now get the line from the first movie: "Find something funny Arthur?" "Just thinking of a joke" "Mind telling it to me?" smiles "You wouldn't get it." That wasn't Arthur saying that line, that was the Joker personification who made his return killing Arthur in this movie. That's why movies like this work. Even if you think you hate it, they leave enough layers to hopefully make it make sense.
I overall had a good time with it, but I still prefer the first movie because I love that journey Arthur goes on but Joaquin Phoenix carries the film in my opinion and I liked his chemistry with Lady Gaga and nice to see someone defend this even though it's not perfect.
I completely understand why you liked the movie-its ideas and concepts are definitely solid. But to me, a great concept also needs great execution, and that’s where this film falls short. I do appreciate the idea of a sequel, the choice to make it a musical, and the whole theme of it being a deep dive into Joker’s mind. But when it comes to how it was actually put together, there are problems in the writing and structure that really hold it back. in terms of musicals, for me, is how many musical sequences there are. Don’t get me wrong, a few of them could’ve really added something special to the film. But because there are so many, they end up watering down some of the most intense moments. Instead of enhancing the drama, they interrupt it. In fact, the constant switching to music stops those powerful scenes from reaching their full potential. It’s almost like the film had the perfect opportunities for certain musical moments to shine, but by overdoing it, they lost that magic. Another thing is the introspective moments between Arthur and Joker. While they’re meant to dig into the character’s psyche, they felt too sudden and out of place. There wasn’t enough buildup, so they didn’t land with the emotional weight I was hoping for. I also think the film's message, especially about a man stuck in a corrupt system, could’ve been handled better. Instead, it paints a bleak picture that leaves you feeling like there’s no real way to fight back, and while I get that anarchy isn’t the answer, the subject deserved more thoughtful treatment. Then there’s Arthur’s journey. Most protagonists face obstacles, struggle, evolve, and either overcome or fail. But Arthur never really fights but just loses. Also the actions of those corrupt cops is the worst possible trigger point for the introspection to occur, that even validates the above point. I think it would’ve been more interesting if Joker had won at the court and be extemely brutal about the corrupted system in Gotham and the system needs to be burned, Only to then see after the blast, the unintended chaos he caused. Looking at what his devotees have become (That would have been a better way to depict people who ideolise joker in real life). That moment of realization could’ve sparked some real introspection, leading Arthur to try to undo the damage, Trying to convice Harley that are better than that, which ultimately leads to his downfall, his rejection and him being executed. Personally I have made that my headcanon. But that’s just my take✌
Can I just say I’ve just got out of the theatre and I feel like an outcast. I feel like I’m the only one who thought the movie was incredible! I understand the criticisms but I personally thought it was a perfect story! Thankyou for making this video, you eloquently nailed exactly how I felt when watched it, you helped me make sense of what I just watched and why I liked it so much! Many thanks 🙏
right there with you, man, in sheer emotional impact, this one beats the first, imo- its flawed, but all of the things, that i wasnt sure about and had to mull over a bit first, make it feel that much more real to me, in a way this flick felt like coming to terms, with a really messy breakup
The voice of reason, people watched the original movie with their asses, like there isso much singing and dancing in that movie, and then they asked why the sequel has so much singing in it...
I just finished watching this on line, "mannic" streaming, i seen it in the theater as well, and i really liked it, the 3rd time watching. I have a better perspective on it. Everything you're saying is right on mate👍🏻💯 The musical is not overwhelming and made sense. Joaquin is brilliant as always, hes my favourite actor. The film, It's really a sad, and fukxed up. I really felt bad for arthur. The guards pissed me off more, and arthur not fighting back got me crossed. The scene with Gary was moving. It was funny when arthur couldn't pronounce Randall's last name😂 Lee was bullshite dumping him..smh..her character was rushed. It's really a brilliant move they did going into the psyche of Arthur and the guards and Gary..all the characters. This continuation of Art's journey is one of the most captivating character studies, im serious, and it does so by blending the grotesque with the beautiful, the madness with the melancholic. 🃏👍🏻🤡 good review, cheers mate.
Just dropping in to applaud your perspective. I share many of your opinions on this film and truly believe it's an excellent follow up, or perhaps a natural evolution, from the original. I get the sense that this is a series that will have decades of analysis in storytelling and video essays. Truly feels like an honest commentary on the fetishization criminality and its appropriation to serve a given narrative. It gets better and better the more I think about it.
There’s so many different variations and origins stories to these characters and this one is just another one. For people to get so butthurt because it did not align to their favorite version, is so silly. This is just another version of Joker. And I happen to like this one a lot. 😊
Arthur sings That’s Life at the end of the first one to the social worker in Arkham so we already get a little taste of him singing. 2nd movie was perfect. Sad ending to Arthur but we all knew from day 1 he was never going to be the Joker that faces Batman
This film is absolutely BRILLIANT and a character study with so many levels. As I am not particularly a fan of musicals, the music is used perfectly as a device to portray Arthur’s emotions that he cannot express - as we know from the first film Arthur has music in him and an interesting device that, to me, is seamless throughout the story. There is no question this is an “Art House” film. Everything from the cinematography, performances, art design, score etc. are top notch. Shame some only seeing this at the surface level & turned off by the musical numbers. This is not THAT Joker or THE Joker, just A JOKER. “Knock, Knock? Who’s there? Arthur Fleck? Arthur Fleck who?”
The ending was unsatisfying, but up until the last 15 minutes it was actually great. I think it’s just popular to hate it rn. The hatetrain from the dc incels and stan Twitter haters is ridiculous
Since this is a spoiler discussion for Joker: Folie à Deux, here are my issues with the film. The first Joker-which I considered a masterpiece-borrowed heavily from other films, especially Martin Scorsese’s Taxi Driver, starring Robert De Niro. Interestingly, De Niro also played a pivotal character in Joker as Murray. Both films explore themes of social alienation and mental health, but the key difference is that [MAJOR SPOILER for Taxi Driver] Travis Bickle (De Niro) tries to save a young prostitute (Jodie Foster), while Arthur Fleck in Joker becomes the cause of the chaos, driven over the edge after being bullied one too many times. His descent into madness transforms him into the iconic Joker, making it a grounded, realistic take on the origin of a supervillain. Even if I didn’t know who the Joker was, the film makes it clear that Arthur is unstable and chaos surrounds him. I felt sympathy for him, but I could never see him as a hero, even if his victims were unsavory characters. In Joker: Folie à Deux, we pick up shortly after the events of the first film. Arthur is not the triumphant Joker, but still the vulnerable Fleck, mocked by guards, including one played by the excellent Brendan Gleeson. Gleeson’s character starts warming up to Arthur, but we know their relationship will sour-and it does. While incarcerated in Arkham Asylum, Arthur meets Harley “Lee” Quinn as played by the musically gifted Lady Gaga, and they form a bond through song and dance. Unfortunately, these are mainstream pop songs, and at times, I just wanted the singing to stop, particularly the overused “When the Saints Go Marching In.” I have no problem with musicals-I grew up on Bollywood films-but these musical interludes felt like distractions, stretching the runtime without adding much to the story. As I mentioned in my non-spoiler review, there’s a scene between Arthur and Lee that made no sense, especially given the film’s unreliable narrative. Lee is granted private time with Arthur, during which they have sex-a bizarre turn considering the earlier hostility from the guards. This scene is presented as real because Lee later claims she’s pregnant, but this plot point is never revisited or used to build dramatic tension, especially during their final moment together on the infamous staircase. I understand the film’s intention to portray Arthur as something other than the fully-formed Joker, but they could’ve crafted a stronger narrative. The only real highlight of Joker 2 for me was Leigh Gill, who gave a standout performance as Gary Puddles.
I watched the movie yesterday when it came out on digital because people were talking so badly about it that I wanted to save the money on going to the theater. I don't know if I went with my expectations so low or what, but I swear I can't see the bad in this movie. I thought it was GENIUS. I don't want to be overbearing and say “oh, but you didn't understand” because I can perfectly understand those who didn't like the movie, but I understood the meaning and the layers throughout. Maybe it's me philosophizing beyond the film itself, trying to justify the scenes, but idk, I thought it was great. Almost all the songs had a reason and few sounded out of tune. Okay, sometimes they went on too long, but most of them made sense with the story they wanted to tell. And the movie takes a heavy turn after the scene with the guards when they rap... Arthur. It seems that the film breaks Arthur and shows everyone who projected themselves onto the Joker in the first film that he's just some guy projecting himself above what he was and in reality he's an extremely broken and traumatized guy. I thought the ending was valid, after all, if he didn't die, what would he be? He'd go to jail?! But I thought it was a bit random that the guy killed him. But I think it must be some kind of metaphor that I didn't catch. Edit: I saw some people saying that it could be heath's joker who killed Arthur and I went back to review the scene and I think it's a valid interpretation. I thought the ending was better now but I personally would make Arthur stay stuck in the miserable arkham like he was, that way we would see Arthur at the beginning of the movie stuck in a miserable state, being manipulated to rise as something he is not (joker) so that in the end he only ends up in the same state he started, stuck in a miserable state. Again, I don't want to be overbearing because I understand those who didn't like the movie, but I personally thought the criticism was so explicit that everyone would pick it up And just to conclude: that part of the trial where they say “you spent less than 2 hours with Arthur and you think you know him” he is an TERRIFIC meta commentary
this movie felt like coming to terms, with a really messy breakup, including missed opportunities, wish fullfillment, cruelly interjected power fantasies (prison rape?) and finally acceptance- i already got ridiculed for it, a fair bit, but i love this, more so than the first. it just feels genuinely vulnerable and naked to me, not in small part, to joaquins slightly off key wavering voice. actually teared up, during joaquins phone performance of if you go away and it fucked me up even further, when people left the cinema moaning, during that part
Liked is not the right word for me because Arthur’s life story is so sad and the themes in it are so heavy and uncomfortable. The only people who seem to see Arthur with any sympathy at all are his lawyer and Gary… But the acting, musical performances, visuals, etc were awesome! I found that Joaquin Phoenix can make Arthur and Joker so charismatic even when he’s not committing violence which is notable considering the storyline. And I think the movie is right in showing that mental illness, supreme trauma, sexual assault, etc are not sexy at all… I was still able to lose myself in the story and connect to Arthur. It would have been fun and exciting to see Arthur and Lee turn into comic book villains - I am sure they would have been cool performances - but I guess it wasn’t meant to be.
I liked the movie was going in ready to hate it from what i was hearing but thought it was good i didn't mind the ending too. Also i don't think it attacks the fans that understood the first movie.
It’s a mixed bag for me personally. I was super disappointed, but I didn’t despise it like everyone else did. It had some really good moments so I’d give it a 6/10. I personally think the idea of the joker being multiple people is idiotic even in the comics and what Gotham did with the character. He’s not ghost face. He should be one guy with multiple backstories and designs.
No. People didn't like the movie because it was bad. Thats literally it. The acting was good, and some of the cinematography and visuals were good. But goddamn the story sucked so bad. The "musical" aspects were just thrown in randomly. I could keep talking about the many many flaws, but im already bored just thinking about that shit. Megalopolis was at least hilariously bad. It's a movie to laugh at. This was just frustratingly bad.
@@Tequila_Wolf ur saying it sucked cuz it wasn’t what u wanted. Which was the point of the movie The irony. That nobody gives a fuck about Arthur fleck and only the joker THATS THE POIJT OF THR MOVIE ITS MAKING FUN OF U
@@Tequila_Wolf Yh I tend to agree. The message of the film is fine and its conflict with the first film is also fine and kind of cool, unfortunately it has all the depth of a 250 character tweet that Todd could've just put out instead of wasting $200m lol
It's because of this culture of doing remakes, sequels, which are getting increasingly detestable. I can see why many would be averse to anything sequel-related.
Absolutely loved your thoughts on and align w/mine I posted earlier. Funny how people didn’t think he was Joker yet now wanted him to be Joker and Harley being symbolic of audience is brilliant like you said. Arthur is such a tragic character that even gave a hidden middle finger to those ppl who wanted only Joker not the aftermath of what he did.
I actually loved it. He always felt like Joker but not quite like Joker, he isn't the agent of chaos and disorder who is a terrorist/mastermind/crime boss for sake of a msg/laughs or Batman. And never was going to be. Joker isn’t a tragic/sympathetic-emo reactionary + can ya see a 70 yr old Arthur fighting Batman? Bruce is a kid. Arthur served as the proto / inspiration w/ that ending and that Joker more of an ideology. (Also, in comics they did a 3 Joker story) I think that’s the problem w/those who have issues. Everyone had their minds made assumed he was just Joker - for me I never completely felt it. Missing a point they cannot see w/o feeling that way too. Lot more nuanced than those to just say it was a rehash of first. He didn’t feel alone anymore. Fell in love. And for him to be love starved / touch starved. Imagine how’d that make him feel and after 2 yrs he was in Arkham, he became far removed from Joker /fantasy world and his acts. As compared to who he was his whole life. And he was never loved for who he is and why it might cause a split. But we saw Different perspectives and ramifications for first. Got to hear even more testimonies how awful his mom was, endured, there wasn’t anything to build upon or develop cause he’s a version of Joker but he’s not. And never going to be. His death. Can think of it as him dying by hand of an obsessed fan betrayed on tv like Murr-ARY. But he cuts a smile, laughs to take it on - you know how monumental that would be to make a mark, for how Arthur and his killings impacted Gotham. We seen bits enough of him, that blind side makes it even more powerful. Ideology of Joker passed/embraced, til next. not a tragically doomed life Arthur was in the end. He couldn’t claim being Joker cause of awful things done to him and who he was truly at his core but got what he f******* deserved ;).. Can’t remember if it was said but how much more tragic was if visitor is Lee he was on his way to see. Oh yeah Loved Dent low key becoming Twoface
Some people said that was in his mind, but I kind of think it was Harley Or someone said the guard was just setting him up to be killed But I don’t see why the guard would want him to die because he called him fat Seems like a bit of a overreaction I can’t imagine anyone else going to see him except Harley I too, found it a very compelling performance and a nice book end to the first one For people who don’t want him to be the hero he got what he deserved For people who don’t want an origin story of the joker you got that too I really think people are just pissed off because they want Batman They want chaos But you can’t have chaos without someone to stand against it and Bruce is 12 years old And I appreciate your point of view
Blade Runner 2049 and Top Gun: Maverick weren't necessary, and yet they were FANTASTIC, and even surpassed the originals. Unfortunately Blade Runner 2024 flopped😔
Oh, so spoilers. Not gonna watch it then. I'm gonna say just that Joker is my favorite movie of all time too and I'm gonna enjoy Joker 2 regardless if it's nowhere near the 1st movie or not.
I really liked the film, imo there are some technical problems with it (mainly editing and the transition from dialogue to musical scenes). But the story and acting REALLY WORK. it's a solid 7/10.
"JokerFolieADeux is a sequel that will leave you empty. Because you, like the blood-thirsty society, wanted explosions, fire, passion... But you got what you deserved: another truth - that no one cared about good people, everyone only cared about the entertainment."
People love Halloween 4 even though it undoes the events of Halloween 2 So it seems like it’s just a lot of bias I think people want Batman and they’re pissed off if they don’t get him
Ummmmm people are pretty split on Halloween 2 as a whole but most people don’t like the brother sister thing they tried to do in that movie. So it’s not anything alike. Everyone pretty much prefers that Michael is targeting random people and not Laurie because she’s related.
Halloween, with all its different Timelines, has the Passage of Time to thank, for some of its Entries being re-evaluated, i remember, when Halloween H20 was praised, as the second Coming of the OG and even Resurrection has gained somewhat of a so bad its good Reputation- just like i dug Season of the Witch and Halloween Ends, i dug Folie a Deux, for giving me something unexpected and only Time will tell, if more People will come around to this Flick, i could see it gaining a Cult Following (which in itself, would be kind of ironic, considering Arthurs Impact), in the Years to come
consider the fact, that its not without precedent, that filmmakers, writers etc have spoken out against the interpretation of their respective movies, take fight club, for instance, from which many young men took a similar message and arguably missed the same point- or more recently, breaking bad- phillips just went one, or rather several steps, step further, because not only did he attach an original IP to it, but during folie a deux, theres several moments, that lead the audience on a bit.... i saw people walk out, during different points in the movie and though i think, it was mostly due to them, having had enough of the singing portions, it was clear to me, that many thought, until arthurs confession in court, even up to the prison rape, that this will bring out joker/they will get what they fucking deserve.... and as a fan myself, i can understand why some might feel righteously pissed, it didnt happen, but also, because they probably dont want to admit, they were invested, up to a point, in the now so popular narrative of critics, that it hates its fans....its made really clear, that this regards only a certain sub-set of the first jokers fan base and it mostly gets addressed directly, after the court explosion.... not a whole lot of time is devoted, to showing how unhinged some of his followers are, so i dont buy into the movie existing purely out of spite, i think phillips may have actually trusted his audience too much, because he gives several chances for an out, only to pull you back in- the unfortunate thing about that is, that it really only works once, thankfully it worked for me, that first time and that i rewatched the movie today- i think some fans are taking it so personal, that they take too much of the narrative, at face value, theres a lot more going on here, underneath what some assume is the reality, within the movie.... i can explain, for anyone who is interested, but for now, let me just say, that neither the argument that this movie exists only to spite people (it was joaquins first oscar win and his first sequel and he wouldnt have done it, if he hadnt known about the risk), as a cynical cash grab, its simply too big of an outlier and the claim, that the character of arthur ends, exactly where he started, really makes me question if we watched the same movie
Since the first came out, I've listed it with the "Dark Knight" trilogy, the 2017 "Wonder Woman" movie and the one "Aquaman" movie as really good DC comic-inspired ones (so far) this century. I appreciate the soundtrack to this new sequel, but not the entire deal. It was obvious to me that this line Juaquin Phoenix was in IS NOT canonical to any basic "Batman" continuity, as it were with some that came straight to video, courtesy of Warner Bros animation!
Perfect timing for me with this upload. I saw this movie this evening. I watched your first video on the bus home, and this was published pretty much as I walked through my front door, wanting something to watch with dinner. You've given me a lot to think about when I give it a second watch. I feel let down by it, but honestly, I think I was one of those Harley audience members. I feel kinda stupid for that, but hey, that's why I'm already planning to see it again. Afterall, I saw the first Joker in theatres 7 times 🖐✌️
I enjoyed the beginning half of the movie the cinematography was great and I liked some of the songs that they sing (my favorite scene was when Arthur tap dances) and the scene with Gary was great but where it lost me is when it was implied that he was sexually assaulted by the guards that was when I was like “Was that really necessary?” After that I was completely disconnected with the rest of the film unfortunately I didn’t understand the reason as to why they would go that route with Arthur and maybe I’m wrong maybe they didn’t do what I think they did but how it was set up and the aftermath with Arthur being somewhat lifeless after being tossed back into his cell kinda makes me think they did what I think they did. My rating is atleast a 3.5/10
Strange isn't it. I remember when the J1 came out ppl were moaning about how unfeasible it was to imagine Arthur Fleck becoming a criminal mastermind. I wonder if the same ppl are moaning that Phillip's saw their point all along. While I prefer J1, J2 was a far deeper and even more tragic film than J1. J2 isn't anywhere near the worst movie I've seen this year. I think a lot of people wanted/expected a Heath Ledger Joker role to be acted out in J2 (even more so than in J1). Phillips however wanted to tell the tragic tale of Arthur Fleck. He stuck to his guns and told it. Didn't like the musical elements personally except for the sad songs used, as they added to the hopelessness and doomed love Fleck endured. I actually think they could've gone further with the tragedy and changed the ending where he was executed instead of being murdered by who everyone presumes is Heath Ledger's joker (which doesn't tie in well with The Dark Knight's timeline). I don't understand why Gaga's character was referred to as Lee and I don't know why Harvey Dent was in it either if we are to believe that Phillips took note of Nolan's trilogy. Which is probably why so many see this as a mess of a movie. I'm guessing those same people will be critical of the next Bond movie if/when it comes out too. It wasn't the best movie of the year... and it's fair to say J1 wasn't my favourite movie of 2019 (I preferred Parasite over all that year). But there is no denying that JP is one of the best actors in the film industry. He made me feel sad for his character. The prison yard scene where he's laughing and crying in the rain nearly brought me to tears it was so moving. He's outstanding... as was his late great brother River. I do think though his singing wasn't all that tbh.
Thank you so much for this. I didn’t hate the movie…maybe not as good as the first and could have been a little shorter, but the overall plot line and purpose was pretty amazing. Now having seen it, I understand why Lady Gaga said it was not a “musically.” I thought that was a strange comment at first, but having seen it, I totally get it. The music is a coping mechanism for the character, not a driver for the plot. Or perhaps it is a plot driver when you realize it is a coping mechanism for the character. Either way…not a traditional musical. I was genuinely surprised by the level of animosity for this movie. I thought it made a lot of sense and illustrated how legendary figures, not unlike Paul Bunyan, are rarely based on one person and even if they are, the story evolves and embellishes over time until they become the tall tales that they are. All in all, I thought it was a solid follow up.
I actually respect Phillips for making the film he wanted to and that this wasn't another Studio Committee feature. Was it good no, but it was at least a film. Marvel never bothered to try making one.
@@tjdw5251 And that’s why it’s flopping and majority of the audience doesn’t like it, gonna go down as one of the worst sequels since the first one was so good
@@gualacheesesteak yh it is bad unfortunately. But I am happy seeing all the misguided fans that misunderstood the first film getting mad because the film made it clear that they were stupid lol. All Joker 2 does is to explain in dumb language to people who misunderstood the first film what they were supposed to think. As a troll on those fans I respect it. Otherwise the film is kind of worthless. Again I have said this before but he could have just said this in a 250 character Tweet and not a 2+ hour $200m film.
I love Lady Gaga and when I first hear that she is in this movie, I was excited of it, but when it was release, I feel like she was kinda waste in this one and the only spotlights that we get from her is the musical sequences with the Joker
Everyone loving and hating this movie all seem to think they have the right view. It all comes across as very pompous. From what I’ve seen online is that even the haters typically like the cinematography and acting and maybe a small handful of the songs. The people then say that a lot of the songs feel unnecessary and hurt the flow of the movie. But the people criticizing the movie say they understand what the movie is going for, they just don’t think it works. They also say the story and writing aren’t great. To do a continuation but have the main character revert back his meek self and then engage him in a romance almost seems silly. No offense but when you kill someone on live tv after going ape sh*t and then people go crazy throughout the city because they believe in what you say, spending time on a new relationship seems silly. I think you are just the type of person who likes cheesy things. Super hero movies, stranger things, etc. That’s okay but to act like people don’t get it is a little bit of a cop out. They just don’t like the corniness as much.
Problem is that people didn't know its musical, i knew and i loved movie. I knew from the start that it will be something different. And it took the biggest part from first movie, sadness and hard life, which is the whole point of the movie
@@kermitthefrog592 i know I'm from different country, but nobody knew here before I told them. Everybody saw few songs in trailer, but didn't make connections 🤣
Your the very few channels on RUclips that is breakdown the film and I support you and I love and support TODD PHELPS vision it’s ridiculous how much hate the film is getting and too be honest I love musicals and the storytelling within this world too me it’s a masterpiece yes it’s not like the first film but that what makes it great it’s different
Those who hate it HAVENT CAUGHT ON YET- I’ll say it again, YOU HAVENT CAUGHT ON YET. I was one that was confused af at the end lol bc I didn’t want him to die … or Harley to leave him… I felt bad for Arthur… but I also wanted to see Him and Harley to escape and reek havoc to make us be like “THIS IS WHY WE NEED A BATMAN” - but again… Batman is a child still … (first movie: you see child Bruce) so…
Why am I biased and influenced by the Joker 2 movie that most people hated? Because I see it as a very important cinematic work that embodied one of the forms of human suffering in a sharp and deep way without falsification. Or in the language of the movie, I liked Arthur himself more than the Joker. It was important for me to delve into Arthur's suffering and failure more than to see the Joker destroying the world. But the majority did not appreciate this bold and different work, and they rejected Arthur and wanted the Joker. They were looking for the Joker at every moment in the movie, and they found nothing but Arthur and his suffering, so they became frustrated. You can accept this from the audience, but from the reviewers and film critics who are supposed to have a taste for art?
I think this character specifically should dance, but not sing. Like if he'd be singing during the stairs scene in the first movie, it would ruin the scene, or if he'd be singing during the bathroom dance. He never should have been singing, the dancing itself should've been his thing..
The hate train this movie got (decided even BEFORE it was out) it's really pathetic and sad. The movie has its flows - like all the movies? - and the actors did an excellent job. I read people blaming Gaga for it being bad, as if she forced Todd Philips to change the script and the scenes, like make it makes sense.
I loved it! the film was amazing and fitting! I loved the ending so much! thankful they did it this way! to me it creates a origin story that makes a lot of sense to me. the movies show what people don't like to face. that reality is lot less 'grand' then it really is. darkness isn't some perfection of darkness. the world often sees what it think it wants to see. and people really wanted joker to be some comic book without depth, this. . .shows reality of what it would be like. aurther fleck. the original. the truth of what it looks like when people take a piece of someone and think that is who they are. they didn't want him to be anything more than than just an image or idea they wanted him to be. but that isn't who he was. Jim carry knows what it is like to act as a character too long and realize that isn't who you are, it is just a persona. a mask. the joker is about what the outside world sees and wants for their own reasons, not for who someone is. the ending to me shows how the world will use what they can from others. the bad people. how many times in history was it written with a bend towards what others wanted not what was. microsoft bought their first OS and it wasn' them that created it. Apple, stole the idea from Xerox, the Lisa. now knowing as the Macintosh. Those whom invent often aren't the ones whom profit.
I agree the criticsm that Joker didn't need a sequel is lazy and unjustified, Joaquin and Todd even had plans for a sequel before the first movie released and at least they are not setting up a Joker cinematic universe or a Joker 3!
I really enjoyed this movie. Not quite as good as the first but pretty close to it. And this is coming from someone who does not like musicals whatsoever
LOL You gave away the ending; however, you gave a brilliant review. I'll be watching your videos! Most people. do not have critical thinking. I really believe that somehow people (politically for Oscars) wanted this movie to fail and paid people to give bad reviews.
Sir, The people trashed 🗑 this movie 🎬 so badly....... I was sitting there thinking "DID THEY SEE THE SAME THING IM WATCHING???" I thought it had a deep message. I'm wondering if the message just went over their heads? I liked it BETTER than the original film.
Joaquin Phoenix and todd philips didnt even want to make a sequel. And this movie fundamentally destroys the first one. I cant even enjoy the first now. Shouldve remained a mystery whether or not killing murray was just in his head. This an awful cash grab. And the "singing" is more like talking
@@kennystephens7098 I think u need to rewatch the first movie bud it was never a question if he killed Murray Like that’s just being ridiculous saying that bud. He shot his brains out clear as day bud
If it were a “cash grab” they would have played it a lot safer and not have made it a whole ass musical, do you think musicals are a huge cash cow these days? I think todd phillips knew exactly what he was doing making this movie.
@@kennystephens7098 that’s just wrong, they sing lots of songs. Joaquin Phoenix isn’t the best singer but that’s definitely intentional, I don’t think Arthur is supposed to be a good singer to anyone except himself. He talk sings but lady gaga is singing her ass of. I’ll admit some original songs would have been cool but I loved the songs they chose.
For me, it was painfully bad. The songs were terrible, and while I generally enjoy musicals, this wasn't it. I was bored, and it's surprising how you can get bored during a musical. Honestly, it felt like Todd Phillips didn't want to make this movie and created something that would ensure there wouldn't be a third one. I expect this film to underperform at the box office.
I do. I didn't think so at first but when we learned she wasn't actually a criminal and rather she committed herself, I think the guards just didn't really care what she did.
No one wanted to see what they saw as a iconic comic book villain be in prison doing nothing, be in court doing nothing sing about being in love and being whipped and used by a girl.
If you were going to this movie expecting the exact same Joker from the comics, then obviously you will be disappointed. Arthur's Joker was never meant to be comic accurate. It's a more grounded take on this character. The movie isn't an action film. So yes, most of the movie is dialogue. There's nothing wrong with action-less movies.
@@MovieFusion this movie would of floped if it was made into a comedy or made the last movie a long dream, people wanted to see the evolution of the joker from the last movie.they didn't want to see a song and dance courtroom drama ,no if Todd Phillips made this movie about another loser without using the title joker who was being played by a girl not modeled by the comic book Harley Quinn then maybe it would been a hit.should of been titled loser in love not joker 2
@@MovieFusion That sounds like absolute dissonance of genres It is like making one movie action thriller and sequel into animal document Kinda weird and make sense why would people not like it much
Forgot to add one thing... part of what also makes the musical sequences work so well with Harley's character is that she sees Joker and that part of Arthur's life as a performance. She loves the thrill of it and the fantasy. Which is why we get so many musical sequences where they look like they are performing for a crowd.
Most of humanity is really dumb. The movie was awesome. I am glad I heard so much negativity before I saw it because my expectations were so low it ended up pleasantly surprising me. The criticisms of the musical parts not being great are so dumb. It wasn't meant to be Oacar winning musical performances, but a depiction of imperfect emtional states and madness through imperfect musical expression.
Just realised, That Bathroom Dance scene is the MVP of both Joker film s 🤯🤯🤯🤯 Genius of connecting the storytelling 📈
I thought I was crazy because I thought it was perfect.
Same 😂 I actually liked it a lot. It’s a great companion to the first movie!
It wasn't terrible but I never felt he went all out into Joker mode. I usually don't like musicals but this one was bearable in that sense. It just felt like it didnt go all out and with Joker you do expect that tbh.
this is by far one of your most underrated videos, you deserve all the credit and recognition in the world
I agree with your review, I'm surprised no one has mentioned this but Arthur is only "Joker" when he is off his meds. In the 2nd movie It literally shows him taking medication to supress the urge to be Joker. That's is what the songs are fantasy scenes are about, basically he is NEVER Joker from the first film In the second film. Even the courtroom scene he just did that to rile up the fans watching the trail until Gary's testified. Then Lee dumps him when he won't be the Joker she wants. Brilliant movie. No one gets it.
Stunning and brilliant movie. I see people throwing tantrums because they didn’t get the movie they expected and wanted. To each their own. I liked this better than the first one.
I think you smelled too much perfume buddy
@@CT-5555-7 ❤️❤️
@@CT-5555-7 he's allowed to have his own opinion. You sound like a nazi
@@CT-5555-7 This movie is not for simpeltons like you bud. Go watch twilight.
@@KyleCox404 lmao yeah it takes a real genius to understand this pile of garbage. How dare I
Your parallel between Harley and the audience is genius. They really are like that
Tf? The parallel Isn’t genius it’s so on your face during the movie, not subtle at all. Also this movie contradicts Arthur’s evolution from the first movie. Movie has terrible writing and is inconsistent
@@elhombredelsaco3995 Want to be more specific? Because from what I see, realistically this is exactly what would happen to him. There is no way Arthur Fleck from the first movie could ever turn into the comic book Joker. Because Joker isn't real, while Arthur Fleck is as close as it gets to "real" in fiction. Frankly some of the stuff that does happen in the movie like him and Harley setting the theater on fire or the court room explosion we're taking it to the brink of believability.
thank you!! I sat there watching this like omgggg, I didn't out the two concepts together at first GENIUS
@@verpen8108 Arthur was established to be joker by the end of the first movie. It’s why he kills the psychiatrist just for giggles and dances right after. But nope, here they say it’s just a fantasy. They expect us to feel bad then for someone who fantasizes about killing innocent people?
I already knew this joker wasn’t gonna be comic book joker. But by the end of the first one he was as close as he could get, and they ruined even that.
@@elhombredelsaco3995 It was left up for interpretation whether he killed her or not. Only the bottom of this footwear was blood stained nothing else.
Finally a healthy comment section about the movie
Yes! I'm so happy that people like you are really sticking up for this film. I liked the first one a lot but this one blew my mind. I absolutely loved it. Thanks for recognising this masterpiece.
Finally, someone gets it! Everyone complaining about the lack of action or clever violence in the style of the Joker misses the point-they themselves are like Lee Quinzel. That was the fun part of the movie, and it went over everyone's heads. Like Lee, they came to see the Joker, not Arthur Fleck. The whole film revolves around Arthur’s fantasy of becoming the Joker, something he strives to bring to life. However, he never becomes the Joker they imagine. The Joker is just a symbol of rebellion, created by the people as an escape from their miserable lives. Arthur is nothing but an accidental catalyst.
His followers know him only as the Joker, through the eyes of the media and his actions-not as Arthur. They don’t care about Arthur. Lee joins the mental ward just to manipulate him into becoming the Joker she saw in the news and on TV. The moment Arthur accepts that he’s not who everyone thinks he is, Lee abandons him. The audience expected a DC Joker massacre, but there wasn’t one. There is no Joker, and just like Lee, the audience discards Arthur. The second movie’s goal was to remind everyone that Arthur is not an anti-hero; he’s a mentally ill man who became famous for his bizarre crimes (I know this portrayal of mental illness isn't perfect, but it's a hyperbole meant to simplify the concept introduced in the first movie).
The focus of Joker is that Arthur is a victim of abuse-from his mother and from society. He's neglected, treated horribly, and lacks any kind of support system. He’s simply a victim in clown makeup at his breaking point, who happened to stumble upon a gun. Afterward, he finds himself in the middle of a perfect storm, where people latch onto the rebellious enigma they see on the news. For the first time, he feels seen, which fuels his desire for attention and adoration. Arthur is no criminal mastermind; he didn’t even intend to kill Murray. Joker, to Arthur, is just a dissociative state, a mask of confidence through which he can release his pent-up rage. But to Gotham, Joker is the voice of chaos, rebellion, and hope for the underdogs of society. Joker was never a real person-just a symbol that people could adopt to finally feel seen and heard. That’s why it makes sense for the audience to feel deceived when there’s no violence in the movie-there is no Joker, only Arthur, who had a psychotic break in the first film.
Nobody cares about Arthur-that’s the core of the Joker series! His mental health is overshadowed by the Joker persona! He may be a criminal, but he’s not a mastermind villain.
I really enjoyed how the Joker movement in the film sets up the origins (in this universe) of the real Joker, Harley Quinn, and other villains. I doubt they’ll make movies about them, but you can infer what happens next. Sure, there were a few too many musical moments, but they were beautifully done, and a great way to express Arthur’s inner struggles, joys, and delirium. I do wish they had developed Lee more, though.
That's all folks
And finally the mantle of violence is picked up and the cycle begins again.
Great take - gotta agree with this.
“Victim in clown makeup” uh- uh- so Arthur killing the psychiatrist at the end of the first movie for giggles and dancing right after is just insecure arthy putting up an act? Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but there’s no denying it contradicts the first movie and ruins Arthur’s evolution with terrible writing
@@elhombredelsaco3995 its a fantasy, folie a deux confirms it never happened
theres at least two shots in the trailers, that immediately spring to mind, that got cut out of the movie and include lee- but in regards to the the way, the film is edited, it made sense limiting her role, though i agree with wanting to see more of her, which i felt, was kind of the point, because after seeing it twice, i wouldnt necessarily take all the narrative, that isnt distinctly marked as dream scenario, to be taken at face value. ill drop some examples.
im convinced that the narrative of the movie was either severely changed up, during the editing, or theres at least three harley scenes, two of them in close proximity to each other, that are in arthurs mind alone and not distinctly marked, as delusion....pretty sure, that despite phillips course correcting, by explaining, that certain scenes were real (which he also did, after the first movie) you cant take all of the surface story, at face value-
one of the more obvious examples is harley telling him, shes pregnant and after the close to you sequence, hes dancing inside his cell, in a way, that this time around, suggested he might imagine the song in his head, due to the way, it cut immediately from the song, to the shot of arthur, dancing in dreamlike manner (and i think his delusion stars with the sex scene, hes thrown into solitary confinement, imagines them dancing on the rooftop, shes already there, when he wakes up, he makes it a point, to tell her, hes not taking his meds anymore, before they have sex and later on, in the courtroom, what causes him to snap and fire mary anne? the suggestion, during sophies testimony, that arthurs a virgin)-
i also picked out, that at least half the time, if not more, the next song title, or a lyric, is suggested in the dialogue, by a person, that usually isnt arthur, or lee (an example would be mary anne, telling him she knows, what its like to love somebody, after telling arthur about lee and then him dreaming up the performance of to love somebody, during which arthur is shot) and while on the topic of that joker and harley show performance, it starts with both singing to love somebody and ends with only arthur, singing to last lines of build a mountain, that lee previously sang solo- theres a clear throughline here, in her taking over, the shared (?) fantasy and him ending up dying alone, imagining her- which leads us, to the divisive ending-
the visitor, at the end, was likely just a ruse from the guards- to clear that up, in the last scene, jackie tips his hat to arthur, in a mocking way, to suggest hes saying adios, then he sings the song we three (my echo, my shadow and me) and one of the other guards, tells him to stop singing the song, seemingly finding it, to be unnecessarily macabre. notice also, how the guard, that tells arthur to follow him, looks back only once and is way ahead of arthur and that the proto-joker inmate doesnt come out, of the same room, where the other guys watch tv. and when he finally stabs arthur and he imagines singing the last part of the lyrics, to build a mountain, while imagining lee kills him, he sings Ah, what a fine young son to take my place (suggesting that the pregnancy of harley always foreSHADOWed the inmate at the end, taking up the joker persona)-
on a sidenote, i found it interesting, that so many people hate this ending and are cool with the ending of dark knight rises, which goes a similar taking up the mantle route, with john robin blake, taking over as batman, a symbol, which is very much specific to bruce. true, we knew john blake for a whole movie, but that only deepened my conviction, that him taking up the mantle would never work and i wouldve preferred rises ending, much more, without the last couple of shots, showing bruce chilling in italy, with selina, although foreshadowed, felt like a cheap solution, because they knew, they couldnt kill off batman. back to the main topic at hand-
The Scene, in which Lee does her Harley Makeup, in Arthurs old Flat, is purposefully not being portrayed, as iconic, as the originasl Birth of the Joker Persona. Its about mirroring the first, the whole Movie does this and shatters the Pieces, in its final Act. I feel, that not only Todd Phillips, but his Lead Actors, purposefully went for broke, to make an artistic Statement and cant disagree more, with this being just some cynical Cash Grab, they mustve known the Risk involved, by doubling down, on making an Outsider Movie, on a deeper (Meta) Level, than its Predecessor.
And in this Day and Age, where honest, romantic Sentiment is often deemed Cringe and the Objective is about proving People right (through Strength of Numbers, if were talking Social Media, which very much includes RUclips), Phillips did exactly that. Whether the Film made Bank, or lost Money, the Response to what is really mostly the final Act, (as a Claim to critique the Fanbase and that the whole Film somehow only exists, for that Purpose)- the Response pretty much plays out, in a Way, where so called Content Creators are proud, of their own Mob Mentality (some proudly proclaiming, they havent even seen it....Titles like i watched x, so you dont have to, etc)- they ridicule Phillips Film, without, in Fact, getting it (to paraphrase the first one)- theyre arguably ridicule themselves further, if they feel strongly, about the way, it portrays them, as unhinged lunatics. and no, i wouldnt go this deep, into analysis, of the film, if i just wanted to hate on fanboys (who 1. would probably never read all of that and 2.i am a fanboy myself, its pointless to be a purist, when it concerns characters, that have been around for 85 years and interpreted in so many different ways, already)
This video was NEEDED
It occurs to me that a lot of people were really angry in the first movie because the Joker doesn’t need an origin story about a guy named Arthur Fleck
Now we have a Joker that no one knows about at the end of the movie and they are still angry
People want to see Batman I guess not realizing that he’s 12 years old
But fill the hole because if that kid is in his early 20s, he’ll only be in his mid to late 30s when Bruce is Batman
You got Harvey Dent
You got Harley Quinn
And she studying to be a psychologist
I really don’t know what else people want
I liked it
we don't have a Joker that no one knows about, we don't have a Joker here at all, that's the problem
Finally someone seeing the movie as what it is and not what "they" thought it should've been! Great video!
This movie was just brilliant to me
I liked it. I don't understand the amount of hate it is getting. This character is too interesting to not find something to like about this. I love the first one (just rewatched it last night) and do find it very empowering to see him realize his potential as the Joker. And while these things are bad, there is always a reason that you understand for him to be killing. He is hurt. And with all that has happened to him in his life, you do side with him a lot of the time. (Or at least i do. Maybe im a bit of a psycho.)
But one of the things i has just told myself i wanted from this sequel (a thing that i didn't think i would actually get) was to humanize him and break him down. Kind of redeeming him in the process. And they actually did that! While that Joker High is very powerful, and it is a lot of fun; at the end of the day, i wanted Arthur to find his way. And i love that we get to see a bit of that in here. He is a human. He is broken. He is not a superhero. Nor is he a supervillain. He's just Arthur. Great stuff. Sad stuff. But real stuff. This was a great journey with the character. Just wish he got a happier ending.
Harley leaves him. but she is seeking the joker. the real joker. the one at the end
Lee is looking for any joker, she's sick. She has no life. I wish they dove more into her mind.
Here's the deal, people were already on guard because of the musical aspects and to top it off the story todd wanted to tell from the 1st movie of the Arthur who was empowered at the end becoming Joker, turns out that Arthur according to this movie doesn't get a happy ending in the name of realism. Arthur is weak broken and alone. This movie made that 1000% clear whereas the 1st one gave you hope in the form of the Joker persona.
And it's actually funny thinking about, this movie ended the exact opposite and yet the same as last one. Arthur isn't Joker at the end of this one, instead the Joker mythos he created, the same one that killed the Waynes "you get what you f*cking deserve" in the form of Joe Chill, killed the very man who ignited it in the form of the now presumed "Joker."
I think I now get the line from the first movie: "Find something funny Arthur?" "Just thinking of a joke" "Mind telling it to me?" smiles "You wouldn't get it." That wasn't Arthur saying that line, that was the Joker personification who made his return killing Arthur in this movie. That's why movies like this work. Even if you think you hate it, they leave enough layers to hopefully make it make sense.
I overall had a good time with it, but I still prefer the first movie because I love that journey Arthur goes on but Joaquin Phoenix carries the film in my opinion and I liked his chemistry with Lady Gaga and nice to see someone defend this even though it's not perfect.
I feel really thankful for this video you've made. This feels like someone finally makes movie criticism make sense.
!!!!!
I completely understand why you liked the movie-its ideas and concepts are definitely solid. But to me, a great concept also needs great execution, and that’s where this film falls short. I do appreciate the idea of a sequel, the choice to make it a musical, and the whole theme of it being a deep dive into Joker’s mind. But when it comes to how it was actually put together, there are problems in the writing and structure that really hold it back.
in terms of musicals, for me, is how many musical sequences there are. Don’t get me wrong, a few of them could’ve really added something special to the film. But because there are so many, they end up watering down some of the most intense moments. Instead of enhancing the drama, they interrupt it. In fact, the constant switching to music stops those powerful scenes from reaching their full potential. It’s almost like the film had the perfect opportunities for certain musical moments to shine, but by overdoing it, they lost that magic.
Another thing is the introspective moments between Arthur and Joker. While they’re meant to dig into the character’s psyche, they felt too sudden and out of place. There wasn’t enough buildup, so they didn’t land with the emotional weight I was hoping for. I also think the film's message, especially about a man stuck in a corrupt system, could’ve been handled better. Instead, it paints a bleak picture that leaves you feeling like there’s no real way to fight back, and while I get that anarchy isn’t the answer, the subject deserved more thoughtful treatment.
Then there’s Arthur’s journey. Most protagonists face obstacles, struggle, evolve, and either overcome or fail. But Arthur never really fights but just loses. Also the actions of those corrupt cops is the worst possible trigger point for the introspection to occur, that even validates the above point.
I think it would’ve been more interesting if Joker had won at the court and be extemely brutal about the corrupted system in Gotham and the system needs to be burned, Only to then see after the blast, the unintended chaos he caused. Looking at what his devotees have become (That would have been a better way to depict people who ideolise joker in real life). That moment of realization could’ve sparked some real introspection, leading Arthur to try to undo the damage, Trying to convice Harley that are better than that, which ultimately leads to his downfall, his rejection and him being executed. Personally I have made that my headcanon.
But that’s just my take✌
Good honest opinion. Glad you like it man!
Can I just say I’ve just got out of the theatre and I feel like an outcast. I feel like I’m the only one who thought the movie was incredible! I understand the criticisms but I personally thought it was a perfect story! Thankyou for making this video, you eloquently nailed exactly how I felt when watched it, you helped me make sense of what I just watched and why I liked it so much! Many thanks 🙏
right there with you, man, in sheer emotional impact, this one beats the first, imo- its flawed, but all of the things, that i wasnt sure about and had to mull over a bit first, make it feel that much more real to me, in a way this flick felt like coming to terms, with a really messy breakup
The voice of reason, people watched the original movie with their asses, like there isso much singing and dancing in that movie, and then they asked why the sequel has so much singing in it...
I just finished watching this on line, "mannic" streaming, i seen it in the theater as well, and i really liked it, the 3rd time watching. I have a better perspective on it. Everything you're saying is right on mate👍🏻💯
The musical is not overwhelming and made sense. Joaquin is brilliant as always, hes my favourite actor. The film, It's really a sad, and fukxed up. I really felt bad for arthur. The guards pissed me off more, and arthur not fighting back got me crossed.
The scene with Gary was moving. It was funny when arthur couldn't pronounce Randall's last name😂 Lee was bullshite dumping him..smh..her character was rushed.
It's really a brilliant move they did going into the psyche of Arthur and the guards and Gary..all the characters. This continuation of Art's journey is one of the most captivating character studies, im serious, and it does so by blending the grotesque with the beautiful, the madness with the melancholic. 🃏👍🏻🤡 good review, cheers mate.
For me personally it’s a 6/10
Just dropping in to applaud your perspective. I share many of your opinions on this film and truly believe it's an excellent follow up, or perhaps a natural evolution, from the original. I get the sense that this is a series that will have decades of analysis in storytelling and video essays. Truly feels like an honest commentary on the fetishization criminality and its appropriation to serve a given narrative. It gets better and better the more I think about it.
There’s so many different variations and origins stories to these characters and this one is just another one. For people to get so butthurt because it did not align to their favorite version, is so silly. This is just another version of Joker. And I happen to like this one a lot. 😊
The problem is that the director is telling the audience how to perceive the art. That’s a massive faux pas.
I loved it, it's in my Top 5 of the year.
Arthur sings That’s Life at the end of the first one to the social worker in Arkham so we already get a little taste of him singing. 2nd movie was perfect. Sad ending to Arthur but we all knew from day 1 he was never going to be the Joker that faces Batman
This film is absolutely BRILLIANT and a character study with so many levels. As I am not particularly a fan of musicals, the music is used perfectly as a device to portray Arthur’s emotions that he cannot express - as we know from the first film Arthur has music in him and an interesting device that, to me, is seamless throughout the story. There is no question this is an “Art House” film. Everything from the cinematography, performances, art design, score etc. are top notch. Shame some only seeing this at the surface level & turned off by the musical numbers. This is not THAT Joker or THE Joker, just A JOKER. “Knock, Knock? Who’s there? Arthur Fleck? Arthur Fleck who?”
Gotta say thanks. Thanks for giving us a different perspective on the movie! And even have new conclusions from it. Maybe it's kind of planned...
Came out imax today with my dad - thought this was absolutely brilliant, just as good as the first one
Saw it with my dad too thought it was great
finally the one RUclipsr with a brain
Most of the haters haven't even watched the movie, it's very flawed but still very decent and far more interesting than most big budget movies.
I thought it was a step down from the first but not bad….they should’ve only kept one musical number but I’d give it a 6/10….i loved the cartoon intro
Thanks for this and im so excited for you defending it❤
The ending was unsatisfying, but up until the last 15 minutes it was actually great. I think it’s just popular to hate it rn. The hatetrain from the dc incels and stan Twitter haters is ridiculous
Dc incels? Huh? Movie is just bad
Who is stan?
Since this is a spoiler discussion for Joker: Folie à Deux, here are my issues with the film.
The first Joker-which I considered a masterpiece-borrowed heavily from other films, especially Martin Scorsese’s Taxi Driver, starring Robert De Niro. Interestingly, De Niro also played a pivotal character in Joker as Murray. Both films explore themes of social alienation and mental health, but the key difference is that [MAJOR SPOILER for Taxi Driver] Travis Bickle (De Niro) tries to save a young prostitute (Jodie Foster), while Arthur Fleck in Joker becomes the cause of the chaos, driven over the edge after being bullied one too many times. His descent into madness transforms him into the iconic Joker, making it a grounded, realistic take on the origin of a supervillain. Even if I didn’t know who the Joker was, the film makes it clear that Arthur is unstable and chaos surrounds him. I felt sympathy for him, but I could never see him as a hero, even if his victims were unsavory characters.
In Joker: Folie à Deux, we pick up shortly after the events of the first film. Arthur is not the triumphant Joker, but still the vulnerable Fleck, mocked by guards, including one played by the excellent Brendan Gleeson. Gleeson’s character starts warming up to Arthur, but we know their relationship will sour-and it does. While incarcerated in Arkham Asylum, Arthur meets Harley “Lee” Quinn as played by the musically gifted Lady Gaga, and they form a bond through song and dance. Unfortunately, these are mainstream pop songs, and at times, I just wanted the singing to stop, particularly the overused “When the Saints Go Marching In.” I have no problem with musicals-I grew up on Bollywood films-but these musical interludes felt like distractions, stretching the runtime without adding much to the story.
As I mentioned in my non-spoiler review, there’s a scene between Arthur and Lee that made no sense, especially given the film’s unreliable narrative. Lee is granted private time with Arthur, during which they have sex-a bizarre turn considering the earlier hostility from the guards. This scene is presented as real because Lee later claims she’s pregnant, but this plot point is never revisited or used to build dramatic tension, especially during their final moment together on the infamous staircase.
I understand the film’s intention to portray Arthur as something other than the fully-formed Joker, but they could’ve crafted a stronger narrative. The only real highlight of Joker 2 for me was Leigh Gill, who gave a standout performance as Gary Puddles.
I watched the movie yesterday when it came out on digital because people were talking so badly about it that I wanted to save the money on going to the theater. I don't know if I went with my expectations so low or what, but I swear I can't see the bad in this movie. I thought it was GENIUS.
I don't want to be overbearing and say “oh, but you didn't understand” because I can perfectly understand those who didn't like the movie, but I understood the meaning and the layers throughout. Maybe it's me philosophizing beyond the film itself, trying to justify the scenes, but idk, I thought it was great.
Almost all the songs had a reason and few sounded out of tune. Okay, sometimes they went on too long, but most of them made sense with the story they wanted to tell.
And the movie takes a heavy turn after the scene with the guards when they rap... Arthur. It seems that the film breaks Arthur and shows everyone who projected themselves onto the Joker in the first film that he's just some guy projecting himself above what he was and in reality he's an extremely broken and traumatized guy.
I thought the ending was valid, after all, if he didn't die, what would he be? He'd go to jail?! But I thought it was a bit random that the guy killed him. But I think it must be some kind of metaphor that I didn't catch.
Edit: I saw some people saying that it could be heath's joker who killed Arthur and I went back to review the scene and I think it's a valid interpretation.
I thought the ending was better now but I personally would make Arthur stay stuck in the miserable arkham like he was, that way we would see Arthur at the beginning of the movie stuck in a miserable state, being manipulated to rise as something he is not (joker) so that in the end he only ends up in the same state he started, stuck in a miserable state.
Again, I don't want to be overbearing because I understand those who didn't like the movie, but I personally thought the criticism was so explicit that everyone would pick it up
And just to conclude: that part of the trial where they say “you spent less than 2 hours with Arthur and you think you know him” he is an TERRIFIC meta commentary
this movie felt like coming to terms, with a really messy breakup, including missed opportunities, wish fullfillment, cruelly interjected power fantasies (prison rape?) and finally acceptance- i already got ridiculed for it, a fair bit, but i love this, more so than the first. it just feels genuinely vulnerable and naked to me, not in small part, to joaquins slightly off key wavering voice. actually teared up, during joaquins phone performance of if you go away and it fucked me up even further, when people left the cinema moaning, during that part
“Do you want to know how I got these scars?”
No. If that’s the story , no. 😂
Liked is not the right word for me because Arthur’s life story is so sad and the themes in it are so heavy and uncomfortable. The only people who seem to see Arthur with any sympathy at all are his lawyer and Gary…
But the acting, musical performances, visuals, etc were awesome! I found that Joaquin Phoenix can make Arthur and Joker so charismatic even when he’s not committing violence which is notable considering the storyline. And I think the movie is right in showing that mental illness, supreme trauma, sexual assault, etc are not sexy at all…
I was still able to lose myself in the story and connect to Arthur. It would have been fun and exciting to see Arthur and Lee turn into comic book villains - I am sure they would have been cool performances - but I guess it wasn’t meant to be.
I liked the movie was going in ready to hate it from what i was hearing but thought it was good i didn't mind the ending too.
Also i don't think it attacks the fans that understood the first movie.
Great review. I enjoyed watching this.... and you are totally right!
It’s a mixed bag for me personally. I was super disappointed, but I didn’t despise it like everyone else did. It had some really good moments so I’d give it a 6/10. I personally think the idea of the joker being multiple people is idiotic even in the comics and what Gotham did with the character. He’s not ghost face. He should be one guy with multiple backstories and designs.
Hey I have that comic in your profile pic
Loved it Brian Azerrelo joker ❤
I found the movie great
You're brilliant,👍🏻💯 I loved the film as well.
I agree it was brilliant
I feel like 25% of the criticisms are accurate
The other 75% are just mad it’s not the movie they wanted
No. People didn't like the movie because it was bad.
Thats literally it.
The acting was good, and some of the cinematography and visuals were good. But goddamn the story sucked so bad. The "musical" aspects were just thrown in randomly. I could keep talking about the many many flaws, but im already bored just thinking about that shit.
Megalopolis was at least hilariously bad. It's a movie to laugh at. This was just frustratingly bad.
@@Tequila_Wolf ur saying it sucked cuz it wasn’t what u wanted. Which was the point of the movie
The irony. That nobody gives a fuck about Arthur fleck and only the joker
THATS THE POIJT OF THR MOVIE ITS MAKING FUN OF U
@@Tequila_Wolf Yh I tend to agree. The message of the film is fine and its conflict with the first film is also fine and kind of cool, unfortunately it has all the depth of a 250 character tweet that Todd could've just put out instead of wasting $200m lol
@@crashingcoyotejeez it made fun of me for paying to see a movie expecting to see what the name says and what the marketing says. The nerve.
It's because of this culture of doing remakes, sequels, which are getting increasingly detestable. I can see why many would be averse to anything sequel-related.
I loved it too. I thought the twist was clever and insightful.
Absolutely loved your thoughts on and align w/mine I posted earlier. Funny how people didn’t think he was Joker yet now wanted him to be Joker and Harley being symbolic of audience is brilliant like you said. Arthur is such a tragic character that even gave a hidden middle finger to those ppl who wanted only Joker not the aftermath of what he did.
I actually loved it. He always felt like Joker but not quite like Joker, he isn't the agent of chaos and disorder who is a terrorist/mastermind/crime boss for sake of a msg/laughs or Batman. And never was going to be. Joker isn’t a tragic/sympathetic-emo reactionary + can ya see a 70 yr old Arthur fighting Batman? Bruce is a kid. Arthur served as the proto / inspiration w/ that ending and that Joker more of an ideology. (Also, in comics they did a 3 Joker story)
I think that’s the problem w/those who have issues. Everyone had their minds made assumed he was just Joker - for me I never completely felt it. Missing a point they cannot see w/o feeling that way too. Lot more nuanced than those to just say it was a rehash of first. He didn’t feel alone anymore. Fell in love. And for him to be love starved / touch starved. Imagine how’d that make him feel and after 2 yrs he was in Arkham, he became far removed from Joker /fantasy world and his acts. As compared to who he was his whole life. And he was never loved for who he is and why it might cause a split. But we saw Different perspectives and ramifications for first. Got to hear even more testimonies how awful his mom was, endured, there wasn’t anything to build upon or develop cause he’s a version of Joker but he’s not. And never going to be.
His death. Can think of it as him dying by hand of an obsessed fan betrayed on tv like Murr-ARY. But he cuts a smile, laughs to take it on - you know how monumental that would be to make a mark, for how Arthur and his killings impacted Gotham. We seen bits enough of him, that blind side makes it even more powerful. Ideology of Joker passed/embraced, til next. not a tragically doomed life Arthur was in the end. He couldn’t claim being Joker cause of awful things done to him and who he was truly at his core but got what he f******* deserved ;).. Can’t remember if it was said but how much more tragic was if visitor is Lee he was on his way to see.
Oh yeah Loved Dent low key becoming Twoface
Some people said that was in his mind, but I kind of think it was Harley
Or someone said the guard was just setting him up to be killed
But I don’t see why the guard would want him to die because he called him fat
Seems like a bit of a overreaction
I can’t imagine anyone else going to see him except Harley
I too, found it a very compelling performance and a nice book end to the first one
For people who don’t want him to be the hero he got what he deserved
For people who don’t want an origin story of the joker you got that too
I really think people are just pissed off because they want Batman
They want chaos
But you can’t have chaos without someone to stand against it and Bruce is 12 years old
And I appreciate your point of view
I didnt like it after my first watch but after thinking about it more i think i can respect it.
Blade Runner 2049 and Top Gun: Maverick weren't necessary, and yet they were FANTASTIC, and even surpassed the originals. Unfortunately Blade Runner 2024 flopped😔
Actually prefer both on repeats then the 1st ones
The original Blade Runner is far better than 2049. Maverick is on par with the first Top Gun movies. Both Top Gun movies are fun.
Oh, so spoilers. Not gonna watch it then. I'm gonna say just that Joker is my favorite movie of all time too and I'm gonna enjoy Joker 2 regardless if it's nowhere near the 1st movie or not.
Great comments. Agree with most of what you express.
The movie is 50/50 for me
Understandable this movie is not for everyone
So just 10/10? Lol
I really liked the film, imo there are some technical problems with it (mainly editing and the transition from dialogue to musical scenes). But the story and acting REALLY WORK. it's a solid 7/10.
"JokerFolieADeux is a sequel that will leave you empty. Because you, like the blood-thirsty society, wanted explosions, fire, passion... But you got what you deserved: another truth - that no one cared about good people, everyone only cared about the entertainment."
People love Halloween 4 even though it undoes the events of Halloween 2
So it seems like it’s just a lot of bias
I think people want Batman and they’re pissed off if they don’t get him
Ummmmm people are pretty split on Halloween 2 as a whole but most people don’t like the brother sister thing they tried to do in that movie. So it’s not anything alike. Everyone pretty much prefers that Michael is targeting random people and not Laurie because she’s related.
That makes 0 sense, if that was the case then the backlash would’ve happened for the 1st movie since Bruce was a kid and joker is already in his 50’s
Halloween, with all its different Timelines, has the Passage of Time to thank, for some of its Entries being re-evaluated, i remember, when Halloween H20 was praised, as the second Coming of the OG and even Resurrection has gained somewhat of a so bad its good Reputation- just like i dug Season of the Witch and Halloween Ends, i dug Folie a Deux, for giving me something unexpected and only Time will tell, if more People will come around to this Flick, i could see it gaining a Cult Following (which in itself, would be kind of ironic, considering Arthurs Impact), in the Years to come
They are, and I don't get it because Batman is extremely boring.
Wow for some reason a 13 minute standing ovation at Cannes film, does not resonate with the masses. Shocking...
I think they are gonna connect this joker we see in the end cutting his smile in the Robert Pattinson Batman movie
consider the fact, that its not without precedent, that filmmakers, writers etc have spoken out against the interpretation of their respective movies, take fight club, for instance, from which many young men took a similar message and arguably missed the same point- or more recently, breaking bad- phillips just went one, or rather several steps, step further, because not only did he attach an original IP to it, but during folie a deux, theres several moments, that lead the audience on a bit.... i saw people walk out, during different points in the movie and though i think, it was mostly due to them, having had enough of the singing portions, it was clear to me, that many thought, until arthurs confession in court, even up to the prison rape, that this will bring out joker/they will get what they fucking deserve....
and as a fan myself, i can understand why some might feel righteously pissed, it didnt happen, but also, because they probably dont want to admit, they were invested, up to a point, in the now so popular narrative of critics, that it hates its fans....its made really clear, that this regards only a certain sub-set of the first jokers fan base and it mostly gets addressed directly, after the court explosion....
not a whole lot of time is devoted, to showing how unhinged some of his followers are, so i dont buy into the movie existing purely out of spite, i think phillips may have actually trusted his audience too much, because he gives several chances for an out, only to pull you back in- the unfortunate thing about that is, that it really only works once, thankfully it worked for me, that first time and that i rewatched the movie today- i think some fans are taking it so personal, that they take too much of the narrative, at face value, theres a lot more going on here, underneath what some assume is the reality, within the movie....
i can explain, for anyone who is interested, but for now, let me just say, that neither the argument that this movie exists only to spite people (it was joaquins first oscar win and his first sequel and he wouldnt have done it, if he hadnt known about the risk), as a cynical cash grab, its simply too big of an outlier and the claim, that the character of arthur ends, exactly where he started, really makes me question if we watched the same movie
Since the first came out, I've listed it with the "Dark Knight" trilogy, the 2017 "Wonder Woman" movie and the one "Aquaman" movie as really good DC comic-inspired ones (so far) this century. I appreciate the soundtrack to this new sequel, but not the entire deal. It was obvious to me that this line Juaquin Phoenix was in IS NOT canonical to any basic "Batman" continuity, as it were with some that came straight to video, courtesy of Warner Bros animation!
the way i wish for a movie with Gaga’s Harley but giving her more than 5 lines and singing; there was something there
Perfect timing for me with this upload. I saw this movie this evening. I watched your first video on the bus home, and this was published pretty much as I walked through my front door, wanting something to watch with dinner.
You've given me a lot to think about when I give it a second watch. I feel let down by it, but honestly, I think I was one of those Harley audience members. I feel kinda stupid for that, but hey, that's why I'm already planning to see it again. Afterall, I saw the first Joker in theatres 7 times 🖐✌️
I agree, when I realized this was really a jonkler origin story I was blown away.
I enjoyed the beginning half of the movie the cinematography was great and I liked some of the songs that they sing (my favorite scene was when Arthur tap dances) and the scene with Gary was great but where it lost me is when it was implied that he was sexually assaulted by the guards that was when I was like “Was that really necessary?” After that I was completely disconnected with the rest of the film unfortunately I didn’t understand the reason as to why they would go that route with Arthur and maybe I’m wrong maybe they didn’t do what I think they did but how it was set up and the aftermath with Arthur being somewhat lifeless after being tossed back into his cell kinda makes me think they did what I think they did. My rating is atleast a 3.5/10
Strange isn't it. I remember when the J1 came out ppl were moaning about how unfeasible it was to imagine Arthur Fleck becoming a criminal mastermind. I wonder if the same ppl are moaning that Phillip's saw their point all along. While I prefer J1, J2 was a far deeper and even more tragic film than J1. J2 isn't anywhere near the worst movie I've seen this year. I think a lot of people wanted/expected a Heath Ledger Joker role to be acted out in J2 (even more so than in J1). Phillips however wanted to tell the tragic tale of Arthur Fleck. He stuck to his guns and told it.
Didn't like the musical elements personally except for the sad songs used, as they added to the hopelessness and doomed love Fleck endured.
I actually think they could've gone further with the tragedy and changed the ending where he was executed instead of being murdered by who everyone presumes is Heath Ledger's joker (which doesn't tie in well with The Dark Knight's timeline).
I don't understand why Gaga's character was referred to as Lee and I don't know why Harvey Dent was in it either if we are to believe that Phillips took note of Nolan's trilogy. Which is probably why so many see this as a mess of a movie. I'm guessing those same people will be critical of the next Bond movie if/when it comes out too. It wasn't the best movie of the year... and it's fair to say J1 wasn't my favourite movie of 2019 (I preferred Parasite over all that year).
But there is no denying that JP is one of the best actors in the film industry. He made me feel sad for his character. The prison yard scene where he's laughing and crying in the rain nearly brought me to tears it was so moving. He's outstanding... as was his late great brother River. I do think though his singing wasn't all that tbh.
Thank you so much for this. I didn’t hate the movie…maybe not as good as the first and could have been a little shorter, but the overall plot line and purpose was pretty amazing. Now having seen it, I understand why Lady Gaga said it was not a “musically.” I thought that was a strange comment at first, but having seen it, I totally get it. The music is a coping mechanism for the character, not a driver for the plot. Or perhaps it is a plot driver when you realize it is a coping mechanism for the character. Either way…not a traditional musical. I was genuinely surprised by the level of animosity for this movie. I thought it made a lot of sense and illustrated how legendary figures, not unlike Paul Bunyan, are rarely based on one person and even if they are, the story evolves and embellishes over time until they become the tall tales that they are. All in all, I thought it was a solid follow up.
This movie was a slap to the face to the fans that made the first Joker movie a billion dollars, I’m glad Todd is stepping away from DC
I actually respect Phillips for making the film he wanted to and that this wasn't another Studio Committee feature. Was it good no, but it was at least a film. Marvel never bothered to try making one.
@@tjdw5251 And that’s why it’s flopping and majority of the audience doesn’t like it, gonna go down as one of the worst sequels since the first one was so good
@@gualacheesesteak yh it is bad unfortunately. But I am happy seeing all the misguided fans that misunderstood the first film getting mad because the film made it clear that they were stupid lol. All Joker 2 does is to explain in dumb language to people who misunderstood the first film what they were supposed to think. As a troll on those fans I respect it. Otherwise the film is kind of worthless. Again I have said this before but he could have just said this in a 250 character Tweet and not a 2+ hour $200m film.
I mean it honestly wasn't. The fans thought they were going to get something that was never intended to be given to them.
I love Lady Gaga and when I first hear that she is in this movie, I was excited of it, but when it was release, I feel like she was kinda waste in this one and the only spotlights that we get from her is the musical sequences with the Joker
The movie wasn’t bad it’s just every time a song came on I was like “🙄🙃ok…..lol”
Everyone loving and hating this movie all seem to think they have the right view. It all comes across as very pompous. From what I’ve seen online is that even the haters typically like the cinematography and acting and maybe a small handful of the songs. The people then say that a lot of the songs feel unnecessary and hurt the flow of the movie. But the people criticizing the movie say they understand what the movie is going for, they just don’t think it works. They also say the story and writing aren’t great. To do a continuation but have the main character revert back his meek self and then engage him in a romance almost seems silly. No offense but when you kill someone on live tv after going ape sh*t and then people go crazy throughout the city because they believe in what you say, spending time on a new relationship seems silly. I think you are just the type of person who likes cheesy things. Super hero movies, stranger things, etc. That’s okay but to act like people don’t get it is a little bit of a cop out. They just don’t like the corniness as much.
❤️🔥❤️🔥❤️🔥❤️🔥❤️🔥❤️🔥❤️🔥❤️🔥
Thank you! Thank you for not getting on the herd mentality for likes! THANK YOU
Love both films so much!❤️
Boring, dissapointing, a real mess 👎🏻
Problem is that people didn't know its musical, i knew and i loved movie. I knew from the start that it will be something different. And it took the biggest part from first movie, sadness and hard life, which is the whole point of the movie
i dont get this bc everyone i heard talking about it before release knew it was a musical
@@kermitthefrog592 i know I'm from different country, but nobody knew here before I told them. Everybody saw few songs in trailer, but didn't make connections 🤣
Your the very few channels on RUclips that is breakdown the film and I support you and I love and support TODD PHELPS vision it’s ridiculous how much hate the film is getting and too be honest I love musicals and the storytelling within this world too me it’s a masterpiece yes it’s not like the first film but that what makes it great it’s different
Great summary. 👍🏻 Especially the first point, the stupid 'this movie didn't need to be made' argument.
subscribed.
Those who hate it HAVENT CAUGHT ON YET- I’ll say it again, YOU HAVENT CAUGHT ON YET. I was one that was confused af at the end lol bc I didn’t want him to die … or Harley to leave him… I felt bad for Arthur… but I also wanted to see Him and Harley to escape and reek havoc to make us be like “THIS IS WHY WE NEED A BATMAN” - but again… Batman is a child still … (first movie: you see child Bruce) so…
Why am I biased and influenced by the Joker 2 movie that most people hated?
Because I see it as a very important cinematic work that embodied one of the forms of human suffering in a sharp and deep way without falsification.
Or in the language of the movie, I liked Arthur himself more than the Joker. It was important for me to delve into Arthur's suffering and failure more than to see the Joker destroying the world.
But the majority did not appreciate this bold and different work, and they rejected Arthur and wanted the Joker. They were looking for the Joker at every moment in the movie, and they found nothing but Arthur and his suffering, so they became frustrated.
You can accept this from the audience, but from the reviewers and film critics who are supposed to have a taste for art?
I think this character specifically should dance, but not sing. Like if he'd be singing during the stairs scene in the first movie, it would ruin the scene, or if he'd be singing during the bathroom dance. He never should have been singing, the dancing itself should've been his thing..
The hate train this movie got (decided even BEFORE it was out) it's really pathetic and sad.
The movie has its flows - like all the movies? - and the actors did an excellent job. I read people blaming Gaga for it being bad, as if she forced Todd Philips to change the script and the scenes, like make it makes sense.
I'm a defender of it too, it's my favourite movie of 2024 for sure and one of my fav comic book movie sequels🤡!
I loved it! the film was amazing and fitting! I loved the ending so much! thankful they did it this way! to me it creates a origin story that makes a lot of sense to me.
the movies show what people don't like to face. that reality is lot less 'grand' then it really is. darkness isn't some perfection of darkness. the world often sees what it think it wants to see. and people really wanted joker to be some comic book without depth, this. . .shows reality of what it would be like.
aurther fleck. the original. the truth of what it looks like when people take a piece of someone and think that is who they are. they didn't want him to be anything more than than just an image or idea they wanted him to be. but that isn't who he was.
Jim carry knows what it is like to act as a character too long and realize that isn't who you are, it is just a persona. a mask.
the joker is about what the outside world sees and wants for their own reasons, not for who someone is.
the ending to me shows how the world will use what they can from others. the bad people. how many times in history was it written with a bend towards what others wanted not what was.
microsoft bought their first OS and it wasn' them that created it. Apple, stole the idea from Xerox, the Lisa. now knowing as the Macintosh. Those whom invent often aren't the ones whom profit.
I agree the criticsm that Joker didn't need a sequel is lazy and unjustified, Joaquin and Todd even had plans for a sequel before the first movie released and at least they are not setting up a Joker cinematic universe or a Joker 3!
Not true. Joaquin and Philips didn't want to make a sequel
Totally agree!
I really enjoyed this movie. Not quite as good as the first but pretty close to it. And this is coming from someone who does not like musicals whatsoever
Love the movie
LOL You gave away the ending; however, you gave a brilliant review. I'll be watching your videos!
Most people. do not have critical thinking. I really believe that somehow people (politically for Oscars) wanted this movie to fail and paid people to give bad reviews.
Thank you!!!!!! I loved this movie
Sir,
The people trashed 🗑 this movie 🎬 so badly.......
I was sitting there thinking "DID THEY SEE THE SAME THING IM WATCHING???"
I thought it had a deep message. I'm wondering if the message just went over their heads? I liked it BETTER than the original film.
Joaquin Phoenix and todd philips didnt even want to make a sequel. And this movie fundamentally destroys the first one. I cant even enjoy the first now. Shouldve remained a mystery whether or not killing murray was just in his head. This an awful cash grab. And the "singing" is more like talking
@@kennystephens7098 I think u need to rewatch the first movie bud it was never a question if he killed Murray
Like that’s just being ridiculous saying that bud. He shot his brains out clear as day bud
@@crashingcoyote I think u need to rewatch it. There were subtle hints thru the whole film that it was maybe not happening for real
If it were a “cash grab” they would have played it a lot safer and not have made it a whole ass musical, do you think musicals are a huge cash cow these days? I think todd phillips knew exactly what he was doing making this movie.
@@JohnJohnson-ej7qr it's really not a musical. They talk "sing" songs and most of them aren't good
@@kennystephens7098 that’s just wrong, they sing lots of songs. Joaquin Phoenix isn’t the best singer but that’s definitely intentional, I don’t think Arthur is supposed to be a good singer to anyone except himself. He talk sings but lady gaga is singing her ass of. I’ll admit some original songs would have been cool but I loved the songs they chose.
Thank you for defending it seems no one likes musicals these days. When they were once the most popular genre of movies.
For me, it was painfully bad. The songs were terrible, and while I generally enjoy musicals, this wasn't it. I was bored, and it's surprising how you can get bored during a musical. Honestly, it felt like Todd Phillips didn't want to make this movie and created something that would ensure there wouldn't be a third one. I expect this film to underperform at the box office.
I loathe and am bored by musicals, but I loved it..
Do you think that Harley was really in his cell when they were together?
I do. I didn't think so at first but when we learned she wasn't actually a criminal and rather she committed herself, I think the guards just didn't really care what she did.
The problem man,is no you can't watch the first,then watch the pile crap that is the second,so no it's not a good connection
No one wanted to see what they saw as a iconic comic book villain be in prison doing nothing, be in court doing nothing sing about being in love and being whipped and used by a girl.
If you were going to this movie expecting the exact same Joker from the comics, then obviously you will be disappointed. Arthur's Joker was never meant to be comic accurate. It's a more grounded take on this character. The movie isn't an action film. So yes, most of the movie is dialogue. There's nothing wrong with action-less movies.
@@MovieFusion this movie would of floped if it was made into a comedy or made the last movie a long dream, people wanted to see the evolution of the joker from the last movie.they didn't want to see a song and dance courtroom drama ,no if Todd Phillips made this movie about another loser without using the title joker who was being played by a girl not modeled by the comic book Harley Quinn then maybe it would been a hit.should of been titled loser in love not joker 2
@@MovieFusion That sounds like absolute dissonance of genres
It is like making one movie action thriller and sequel into animal document
Kinda weird and make sense why would people not like it much
EXCELLENT