Rome's Gay Emperors and Soldiers DOCUMENTARY
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- Опубликовано: 9 июл 2024
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Cultural ideas of sexuality have evolved over the centuries and were very different in the ancient world. For the Romans, records show that they were less concerned with the gender of partners so much as they were worried about who played the active role. Free male citizens were expected to be dominant in all relations, be they with men or women, in order to preserve their virtue.
Thus the Roman army would punish troops who engaged in homosexual relationships with each as it necessarily followed that one party would be taking the submissive and thus shameful role. BUT these same soldiers were free to engage in same-sex relationships outside of camp with those of lesser status such as slaves, youths, or social infamis. Roman commanders do seem to have had some leeway here and we have numerous reports of their same-sex relations while on campaign.
In this episode we seek to explore these ancient ideas of sexuality through the lens of the most powerful figures of the Roman Empire, Rome's Gay Emperors. In doing so we look at the cases of Nero, Trajan, Hadrian, and Elagabalus. Each of their stories helps shed light on this topic.
What other topics should we cover next?
Check out our other recent How They Did It episodes on daily life:
What Was Roman Sci-Fi and Literature Like? • What Was Roman Sci-Fi ...
What was it like to Grow Up Byzantine? • What was it like to Gr...
Where did Gladiators come from? • Where did Gladiators c...
What were Naval Gladiator Battles like? • Naval Gladiator Battle...
What was a day at the Roman Colosseum like? • What was a day at the ...
Magic, Spells, & Curses in Ancient Rome • How They Did It - Mag...
Credits:
Research = Chris Das Neves
Script = Chris Das Neves
Narration = Invicta
Art = Beverly Johnson and Penta Limited
Sources and Suggested Reading:
"Sexuality in Rome and Ancient Greece" by M. Skinner
"Homosexuality in Greece and Rome: A Sourcebook of Basic Documents" by T. Hubbard
"Same-Sex Desire and Love in Greco-Roman Antiquity" by Verstraete
"Latin Sexual Vocabulary" by J.N. Adams
"X-Treme Latin" by H. Beard
#history
#documentary
#rome
Ancient sexuality rarely gets talked about and its yet another aspect of daily life in the past that I am excited to explore. What other "How They Did It" topics would you like to see us cover? Inflation, natural disasters, vacations...?
Inflation sounds awsome. The story of Portugal going bankrupt 4 times in a decade is always fun to hear.
@@VieneLea yeah but remember how good we were at sailing?
Welp. Up until this moment, this was my 5 year old's favorite history show, this and kings and generals. But I see, our agenda in modern day is being pushed now, I doubt we will see the brothels and other sexual services of the Roman empire which were vast, unfortunately, which goes to show the modern influence in reading the past. This crossed a line where now I have to prescreen it for him. 🤦
@@jerryjohnson4008 So emperors like Elagabalus were totally straight, right? 😂 The gays have always existed. You can talk about agendas all day long, but every time a gay person comes in history, that's too much and we have to revise history to exclude them? You're the ones trying to rewrite history, and hopefully one day your 5 year old learns that you don't have to hate people who are different from you
@@neroxen_ um. No. I'm not. I'm not speaking nonsense. You know I'm not speaking nonsense. The fact that EVERYTHING has to be sexualized to appease a specific group of people be that whoever it is...is becoming...borderline abusive at this point. Everyone knows Rome was a sexualized, and the reason become corrupt, in some cases can be directly linked to its over sexualizing of their society...it did rot...from the inside. Pretty much every society that over sexualized, became weak and collapsed. We can tell by pottery, we can tell so well by images in pottery, we can now guess within a century of a particular kind of warrior when it's sexualized it's signs of internal collapse. 🤦 But we don't want to say what it meant when warriors in pottery went from being soldiers thrusting spears to soldiers looking feminine in couchs. This is a direct link to collapse. We know, it wasn't just Athens and Rome, it was also the Minoans, who preexisted both, too, show this effect. 🤦 But we won't mention it, cause it doesn't suit our modern agenda as a society. But those are signs of society in the process of eating itself from the inside. 🤦 Want to talk about the history of the sexuality but they don't want to tell you the effects were detrimental to those societies in the long term 🤦...and it's almost 100% of the time.
“Rome wasn’t a society of straights and gays; it was an empire of Tops and Bottoms”
Absolutely, the fact that (in Roman opinion) a Roman has full control over his body and no one else controls him but he controls others like s!aves, youth and poor by being Top in relationship, being Top is status symbol of being the controller of others' bodies, it was not like today where for a woman is on top (cowgirl) of dominant male in a heteros*xu@l relationship is seen as not controversial, but for Romans it was evidence of that man's lack of control and "dominance" over others be it female, and so explains the logic of why their s*xu@lity was in terms of Top and Bottom
Well said!
Reminds me of so many blackadder quotes...
"I don't care if he's been rogering the Duke of York with a prize winning leek..." +
And the whole situation with Percy and the Bishop of Bath & Wells
And male Hooker Baldrick
+ that aged well 🤦♀️😳
Not to mention that because slaves were ''non-people'' sexual acts between them and their masters where not regarded as substantial. Even in relation to marital faithfulness.
Based Romans?
Biggus Dickus was noted for his generosity under the stands in the Colluseum.
How can we be sure Biggus Diccus was gay?
He had a wife, you know…
@@legateelizabeth so did Nero.
@@legateelizabeth His wife was actually formal centurion, Titanus Testus, but she transitioned and married Biggus Dickus, who we now formerly know as Tightus Absentus Cervicus.
@@legateelizabeth oh really, didn’t know. Do you now what she is called?
Yeah, his cousin, Testicules the Huge, was rather unlucky in this department, and swore vengeance upon him one day.
Testicules would eventually be found dead in a ditch, bleeding profusely
>Nero involved in a love triangle with a man named pythagoras
The writers of this stuff just got lazy at times
lol, didnt even notice that.
@@nvmtt1403 That's the first thing I noticed, like "WTF was his name again?!"
Bah-dum-dum-tsss!
feels like they were just obtuse people, thinking this was a good joke
Bada bing!
"Found him when stripped to be equal to his reputation"
The amount in which the scandalous undertones are kept downplayed in this delivery is amazing.
What the hell that even mean???
@@damonmitchell8088 The guy's reputation was that he had a big dong. When Elegabalus saw him naked, he learned the rumors were true.
@@damonmitchell8088 Dude was hung
@@Imagionis #AmeriKKKa
@@damonmitchell8088 "He wanks as high as any in Rome!" That's what it means 😆😆😆
If there is one rule to human history, is that if you are powerful enough, every social rule becomes a suggestion
"Duly noted."
Glad that Alexander the Great destroyed the gayest city in Greece.
When you are a star they let you do it, you can do anything - 🍊
It's funny, because as history enthusiasts we spend hours studying about laws and traditions when some of these mfs simply don't give a damn.
It takes only one man to change the course of history.
As a soon to be historian i do have to say that roman emperors were often portrayed feminine, subservient etc by sources like cassius dio due to their bad relationship with the senate. This makes some claims quite dubious by the ancient authors.
That's certainly valid and many of these accounts are likely exaggerated. But even if the claims are not true they still help give us understanding of sexual mores.
@@InvictaHistory also true. If you need help with research in the future i might be able to help to a certain extent. Especially ancient history is my forté
They knew this and still made the video. How bastardly.
@@InvictaHistory
We have to be careful not to romanticize Roman homosexuality that was about power, dominance, and masculinity. Free, upper-class Romans imposed their power over usually unfree men with a lower status. The free Roman should always preserve the masculine role in every sexual encounter. Otherwise, he will be mocked, humiliated, and despised by the Romans. Hence homosexual relationships between free Romans were a big taboo.
@@gianlucarossi5672 we included this context in the beginning portions of our video
In contrast to the modern view, social class mattered greatly in the acceptability of homosexual relations. In ancient Rome, sexuality for men was related to ideas of masculinity and male domination. The upper classes were much more likely to indulge in homosexual acts, and masters had the sexual use of their slaves. But homosexual relations between freeborn Romans were regarded as disgraceful. There was no equality between the sexes in regard to homosexual acts. While subject to certain strictures, male homosexuality was tolerated in many cases. Lesbianism, however, was much less common and seems to have been universally considered reprehensible. Hence, unlike in Greece, relationships between two freeborn males of the same status were not typical and indeed, the Romans disdained and condemned such relations as demonstrating the participants’ effeminacy. Instead, ‘acceptable’ same-sex relationships were between freeborn Roman men and slaves, prostitutes, entertainers, or foreign men as long the Romant is the active, dominant, and not the passive party during intercourse. Furthermore, according to the Romans, the necessary attribute for sexual intercourse was the phallus. Because females were seen as unable to take on an ‘active’ role in a relationship, lesbianism was generally taboo throughout Roman history.
This is great additional context. Thanks for posting
What about the actual era of the Roman Empire? Obviously the scandalous history of Elagabalus happened during the late and decadent period of the empire.
When we look at the history of the Roman Empire, the timeline or era does actually matter. I don't think it's different when it comes to history from a sexual point of view.
(Obviously I understand it is a very difficult subject to research with an independent sight because sources are biased.)
Wow the elite have always been degenerate freaks
I'm curious, why was it taboo if they didn't even really count intercouse between women as real sex?
It was bisexual empire tbh
"It's not gay if you're a top' - Ancient Rome (Great video in all seriousness, deals with a complex topic in a very accessible manner)
Yeah I'm sure the rainbow flag in the thumbnail doesn't make a mockery of gay men. And this video doesn't push any agenda. Tomorrow's the day all the Twitter profike pics stop being rainbow colored and go back to their normal logos. I'm always amazed how much pandering people can take without seeing it as demeaning.
@@caesertullo1824 que
@@psyssi actually yeah I am. and I find pride month to be extremely pandering. I just want to find a husband and live in peace. I don't need companies trying to woo me, I don't need historians to create videos for me. I'm an educated gay man. I understand how things worked in rome, we've been hearing about it for decades. This video isn't new or interesting.
@@caesertullo1824 How is it hard for you to realise other people might not have the same knowledge around this topic you do? for an educated person you seem to lack common sense.
@@caesertullo1824 how are you so self centered you get annoyed that people make content for people who ARE interested in it.
Roman Grindr profiles would be like: "Masc4Masc, no fems, no fats, no twinks, Str8 acting only"
Also basically everyone would label themself as a top even if they weren't
🤣🤣🤣
Kek
@@Akimittsun "I'm a top. Except if you're of a higher social class than me, in which case I will bottom, but only for the sake of propriety. Not a bottom. Equites and Senatores hmu"
Same as today then really emanuel. The Romans did have the luxury of having no mobile phones back then though and had to actually meet each other in their daily lives. It was like that until about the year 2000 really which was so much more fun. Then everything changed in how we meet partners to just a lazy finger swipe.
Prince was so right back in 1983 with his hit song '1999' when he sang '2 thousand zero zero, party over, oops, out of time'. That man saw the future.
The good illustrations, with just the right amount of subtle movements, sincerely helped my ability to process the names, circumstances and details. I have trouble paying attention, and this animation was like a light-bulb, going on, this late in life.
Hadrian lost his lover so turned him into a god and nearly wiped an entire cultural-religious group from existence because he was in such grief.
Talk about relationship goals.
Well he did drown himself to save the emperor's life out of love.
if only it was more than nearly...
@@eduardolombello1776 dare I say based?
@@Michael_the_Drunkard thank you, basileus. how is Basil doing?
_I learned about it from my tutor. I took mental notes and applied the lessons in full when in Caledonia. My trigger though was them leaving their women and children to us. As a dedicated family man, that made me _*_very_*_ angry. Too bad I couldn't finish the job. >:(_
"I'm not gay. I have relationships with women... and sex with men"
Emperor Trajan
Therefore bisexual
Fellas is it gay to have relationships with women... and sex with men
-Emperor Trajan (probably)
“And I got news for you; that means you're gay”
Some Christian living in Roman
@@huntarthebarbarian8407 😂
@@huntarthebarbarian8407
How the persecutions against the Christians really started
"How they did it" takes on new meaning in this video 🤣👌
Romans:its okay to be gay as long he is lower than you in hierarchy and you are on the top.
That is the Prison Ethos today.
@@arrow1414 And navy.
@@ktheterkuceder6825
Mostly the Marines.
@@arrow1414 Come on. We bothknow the navy is gay butt of the jokes in us military.
Still not gay. Bisexual.
I have to say, that our binary sexual identities didn't exist back then. Pure homosexuals were rare. Usually you had dominant males with wife or sometimes multiple, who banged effeminate low-status males for pleasure. That was the way of pagan sexual morals, atleast until the arrival of Christianity.
I know that there was no such thing as 'gay' or 'bisexual' back then, but today most of these men would be considered bisexual rather than gay.
Yeah, like Invictus said & from what I've read it was more of a dominance thing among the males that participated (mainly the upper class who did.) One thing I don't think I heard in this video was that it was generally looked down on within Roman society if they were the male in the "passive" role. Of course social views on same sex relations in general back then went through various changes over the many many centuries of the Roman Empire.
Imo our modern lens on these things don't allow us to hold a proper perspective from which to truly understand how they culturally viewed this subject. There's too much modern baggage surrounding same sex relations to ever allow us to grasp how every day average Romans honestly viewed these things.$
@@Dang3rMouSe He actually did mention this in the beginning of the vide
it’s an umbrella term
They would sexually fluid or homo-flexible by todays standards. To be bisexual, you need to know their intentions or active attractions. Two straight guys can play with each other without being bisexual. He said in the video, sexuality wasn’t based on gender but dominance. It’s why today they say its “masculine” to top another guy.
Vercingetorix: "Why are you gae?"
Caesar: "Who says I'm gae?"
Vercingetorix: "You are gae."
Caesar to Vercingetorix: why are you running, why are you running?!?
LGBTI, where is the H?
LMAO
confusion of da highest orda🤣
Caesar: "I'm not gae!"
Vercingetorix: "So who is gae?"
my jaw dropped hearing "he gave political positions to men according to the size of their genitalia" holy shitt 😭
5:58 Id like to clarify here that the word you're looking for is "Catamite" not "Sodomite" which would creep up in the Latin vocabulary much later.
I learned that from HBO’s Rome
“Do you not see that Pompey may be broken like a Dacian catamite and still be dangerous?”
Yeah. Sodomite is a biblical word. A bit weird for early Romans to be using it.
@@joellaz9836 Im blown away by how we still use it. Like every now and then you'll hear a report saying someone got "sodomized"
Correct
One take I can get from this is that Nero threw some WILD parties.
Listening about Nero made me think, it would be good to see a mini series on the Years of the 4/5/6 emperors:
4 emperors in 69 AD (Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Vespasian)
5 emperors in 193 AD (Pertinax, Didius, Niger, Albinus, Severus)
6 emperors in 238 AD (Thrax, Gordian I, Gordian II, Pupienus, Balbinus, Gordian III)
Byzantines too I guess:
4 emperors in 641 AD (Heraclius, Constantine III, Heraklonas, Constans II)
4 emperors in 1042 AD (Michael V, Zoe, Theodora, Constantine IX)
Yes!!! Also, should be made a video about the First Roman sassanid war,with hatra Armenians and parthians joined Roman Side
@RadBaeron lol
You grossly missunderstand the word love And how it was used in ancient text.
In a book "Caesar Against the Celts" by Ramon L. Jimenez there's mention that Julius Caesar's enemies sometimes mocked him by referring to him as "Queen of Bithynia" over an alleged scandal from his youth during Rome's war with Mithridates.
Quote: "Caesar was dispatched to Bithynia on the southern coast of the Black Sea to persuade King Nicomedes II to make his fleet available for use by Marcus Thermus in the Aegean. In return for the use of the fleet, Nicomedes desired that Caesar share his bed and, reportedly, Caesar complied. Although sexual encounters of this kind were commonplace in the Mediterranean world, the idea of a patrician playing the role of a male prostitute caused a scandal in Rome."
Caesar always denied this and there's no way to know for sure if it's true but it stuck with him to an extent and it tracks with the idea of Roman sexuality revolving around social standing and role.
As a Pretorian Guard I can confirm.
Moreover as Pretorians we don't discriminate between sexual orientations, we just slay them all equally! For the Glory of Rome, of course!
And increased salary
To paraphrase Cohen the Barbarian...
"Never enter an ass kicking contest with a Roman Emperor who just buried his bit of rough trade..."
And look up the LOTR secret diaries, I'm sure you'll appreciate it. Do not be eating or drinking. *I MEAN IT*
One of the funniest bits of info is how the Romans we often associated the most with ultra-masculinity, were famous for their romances with their boyfriends. Sulla/Metrobius and Hadrian/Antonious comes to mind.
Alexander the Great tho on the Greek-culture front
@@markmuller7962 Alexander's is a bit more contested, ancient sources vary from calling him gay and hating women's bldies to saying he's straightest man ever who kept large harem of women
@@PraveenJose18551 Yes and I don't think the different sources are mutually exclusive
This is a modern interpretation of ancient history. Early Romans called homosexuality a Greek import, a costume that has weakened the Romans. Hadrian was criticized by the Romans for not quitting his relationship with Antoninus. Plus, in Roman homosexuality the "preservation of a man’s masculinity" was predicated upon his taking the masculine role in every sexual encounter and that "the slur was to have taken on the woman’s role in such acts."
@@PraveenJose18551 yeah large harem of women for the guy who spent most of his life surrounded by men 😆🤣
Very interesting topic. And it seems like the animator had a field day
This kinda explained why quite the number of the old Roman emperors had no biological successors (Trajan, particularly).
Those emperors had to adopt a man to succeed them while in later era people with the same kind of power and position would've had succession problems because they had too many biological sons.
Don't matter, Hadrian might've been gay but he was probably the most based Emperor of his era.
Not really.
First of all, it isn’t at all clear what Trajan’s sexual habits were, and no evidence whatsoever to suggest he was against having children with a woman.
Instead, it was actually expected of the emperor during the era of the five good emperors to not pass down the throne by inheritance but instead choose a candidate which the senate could agree with. The Nerva-Antonine dynasty was after all was born out of the dethroning of a spoiled brat born in the purple.
In this circumstances to have a son was not advisable. To have a son meant to out one’s child in danger, as the successor might inevitably have to do something about a potential enemy.
Marcus Aurelius was the first to have many sons, and was also the man whom ended the reign of the five good emperors by allowing his son to become emperor.
Antoninus Pius (a distinguished senator, in fact the richest private citizen and perhaps the most popular senator) for example, was chosen in part because he had no living heir: Both his sons had died and his successors were not chosen by him.
@@somethindarker Exactly
@@somethindarker I wasnt arguing about the quality of the emperors. Its just the fact about the lack of biological heirs for quite a lot of Roman Emperors.
@@leonardodavid2842 interesting, I might look it up later. Thanks for the insight buddy.
Incredibly interesting video! Great content! Thank you
Rome's sexuality in a nutshell:
"Never be a reciever."
Unless you were a child or young teenager in which case you were considered more desirable than a woman. Or if you were a slave.
At least never admit it. I'm sure the roles were fairly equal in private.
Of course the emperor gets to bring his twinks with him.
Invicta!
Please make a long video about the death of Antinous. What the theories are, who disliked him, who benefited from his death, all and everything you can dig up. 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
As Invicta mentioned, themselves, it's not entirely clear how Antinous died. The sources conflict regardless of relative reliability, and obviously there's no archaeological evidence almost 2000 years later. All we know for sure is that he died in Egypt, probably on the Nile, and that Hadrian was so devastated that he deified Antinous. It's unclear who (if anyone) may have benefitted from the death of Antinous.
The minute you mentioned under aged boys. Alarm bells blared in my head
Remember: It ain't gay if he's your slave
Thanks, you gave me an introduction point for a journey into more knowledge.
Very informative video. Thanks 😊
Honestly this is just another one of those tiny slices of life that I know so little about, but makes ancient history so nuanced and interesting! Good job Invicta and team!
Tominus Maximus did an excellent video about who was gayer the Romans or Greeks
Fantastic video. Thank you for all your research!
So it's like prison. If you're pitching, it's not seen as being gay.
9:30 "in his relations with boys he harmed no one" i'm curious, what do "harmed no one" mean? that he didn't straight up abused them? that it was consensual? what were the standards for no harm done.
seen as I can not imagine any of the boys would have been in any position to refuse
He literally had sex with boys which were probably under 18 years old.
Disgusting, I cant believe people see this and act like there is nothing wrong.
Harmed no one as in didn’t offend anyone, unlike Nero or Elagabalus
@@dimitartodorov4826 i don't, I was just asking for the Roman standard of not harming.
Besides it happened in the past so we can't really change anything about it. I don't have to begin every sentence about the topic by saying "this disgust me"
And there more hetosexual people, so these things happened even more to underage girls. But people become more outraged when it's boys, I don't get it.
They got candy when they were sent on their way. No harm done.
Well compared to other sex slaves, that is
"What happens in Germania, stays in Germania"
10/10 quote
Excellent reporting!
Cheers🇨🇦
this being part of a "How They Did It" set of videos is very apt.
I have always thought that Cassius Dio's writings about Trajan and Hadrian being lovers was just anti-Hadrian propaganda. Senators really despised Hadrian, so it's not suprising.
But if i remember correctly, didn't Dio also suggest something that Trajan and Nerva had relationship too? Anyway usually roman historians should be taken with huge grain of salt.
Edit: Found that quote. It's from wikipedia so idk reliability
"Trajan's putative lovers included the future emperor Hadrian, pages of the imperial household, the actor Pylades, a dancer called Apolaustus, Lucius Licinius Sura, and Trajan's predecessor Nerva."
Cassius dio sure sounds like a degenerate fujoshi
Or there was a relationship that was gossiped about and they straight up used that as propaganda material. Or to use that to mock him.
It does not mean that they werent lovers , at least not at a point. Hell the rainbow press drags real relationships the most around. Which , i dont think gossip worked different then.
Прежде всего Траян и Адриан были родственниками,а императором последнего сделала жена Траяна подделав усыновление мужем Адриана.
My complements to the person who animated the Roman citizens, it was very chic and stylish, very great presentation.
I saw this recommended on my history teachers RUclips and I was intrigued.
my toxic trait is wishing i was born during this era to live my bottom fantasy
me too bestie
BRO?????
I HAVE A DAMN TEST TOMMOROW. WHAT I AM WATCHING
…….
Gotta say I love the video, great work and thank you for giving us the rare insight not often talked about!
Very good, thank you
Such a cool video, thanks for making it! I'd love to see more similar
Unfortunately, Hadrian's autobiography was lost to the sands of time. On the bright side, there is still the wonderful novel 'Memoirs of Hadrian' by Marguerite Yourcenar, which provides us with a very vivid account of Hadrian's affair with Antinous.
So a woman born in 1903 gives a very vivid account? Huh.
@@doweetoz3607
Oh look, a pedantic child on the internet found an insignificant writing error to whine about. Wow, such a rare occurance! Thank you so much for this unique experience!
There are literally zero ancient sources claiming Hadrian had homosexual relationships, please do your research if you doubt me
No thanks, i don't feel like reading some obscure fujoshi fanfiction literally pull out of her ass
super gay tbh
@@GyroGarrison The gayest gay of all gayness. And cheese.
Very good job in this video.
Damn. I was not expecting poetic historical smut when watching this. Those last few minutes were intense.
Thank you for discussing this topic. This video was very interesting and educational. Too many people think that Ancient Roman culture reflects the Christian-dominated Western societies that we are familiar with.
shutup woke
THIS!!!
When the ancient pre-christian society were in fact not a carbon copy of Christian societies.
? Realy ? The Romans are very diffrent from the Roman church especially in their values. War, Sex, Partys the Romans were full of sin in the eyes of the church. They were indeed labled as heathens by the later roman church.
This is all lies
I was born in the wrong era… like man i wanna be deified by my emperor boyfriend 😩
For real brah I need a femboy wife
@@DarkSamael55 ask and you shall receive
@@ewest4817 Ayyyt you'll become my femboy wife
😂😂😂😂😂
I speak Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to men, and German to my horse.
And you type in English to RUclips.
404 funny not found
lmao of course this comes from a guy called Napoleon
I know where this is from and I approve lmao
There are different versions of that quote, and you chose the degenerate one.
He said "Hablo latín con Dios, español con las tropas, francés con las damas, italiano con los músicos, alemán con los lacayos e inglés con mis caballos y perros".
I SPEAK LATIN WITH GOD, SPANISH WITH THE TROOPS, FRENCH WITH THE LADIES, ITALIAN WITH THE MUSICIANS, GERMAN WITH MY LACKEYS, AND ENGLISH WITH MY HORSES AND DOGS.
I am refreshed by the comments here. Laughing at their own corny jokes is much better than a prejudiced meltdown. I applaud you, fellow tone deaf comics. The channel is awesome for their unapologetic addressing of this topic.
Thank you for putting this out there, the good, the bad and the ugly. As with things now history is complicated.
This is like a happy pride month video... 🤣🤣💅
@@pgroove163 History is not that complicated. We just looking at the past and interpretation it through a modern lens that makes it seem complicated.
@@mutsuzawa what do you mean?
@@bigbeefy1 What I mean is we need to stop including the minority as if they are the norm they are not. Even in antiquity homosexuality was not the norm and was frowned upon. Besides why does a minority group get a whole month of celebration just because of who they sleep with. It's stupid. It's a slap in the face of Black Americans and a slap in the face of all peoples in the world. If a person is a homosexual who cares. It is nothing special, nothing to be celebrated. Focus on what the people from the past did and their contribution to world. Just being a homosexual means absolutely nothing. Just the same as being heterosexuals means nothing. The same sex community needs to get over itself. Focus on history, not who they slept with.
Before people get mad, notice I said often and not all straight people.
Great well researched video on the subject and I was glad you focused on three of Ancient Rome's notable gay Caesars while there was a whole plethora of them. Even Julius Caesar was referred to as "Every woman's man and every man's woman." Nevertheless it is intriguing how attitudes towards same sex relationships predating Christianity were, how they fit within the structures of societies at the time and did not carry the ramifications as they did in later periods. Yet when it comes to sex in Imperial Rome, it presents a timeless hard truth of the effects that rulers, good and bad, can have on world superpowers.
gross
@@Elzimbabwe. Hey, that was Ancient Rome for you.
@@LGBTR3naissance yup, we should stay away from it, totally agree, thanks
@@Elzimbabwe. I am not sure what you are implying. If you do not approve of LGBT relationships then you are entitled to your own beliefs (if that is what you meant). Correct me if I am wrong. The main point I was making in my comment is that when you have people who can satisfy their passions with no moral or legal accountability coupled with corruption, it can create monsters.
@@LGBTR3naissance true
Very interesting
"Without God, everything is permissible" -Dostoyevsky
Think the romans had their gods too
@@dynamite953 that's called paganism
@@SeriouslyAwesome paganism is so much cooler.
Basically they were bi, not truly gay. This is what I get from observing Roman history.
bisexuality was more tolerated than homosexuality, but there were still gays. there are multiple sources that indicate trajan preferred men, and from all accounts it seems like hadrian had a very deep relationship with antinous
I think our modern terms in general are way too rigid to encompass human sexuality. This understanding and rigid categorisation is literally not even 200 years old, and I think though we have a general obsession with rigid categorisation in the modern age, every human regardless of their label is much more fluid than we are led to believe.
I get the impression from some of these stories that they were gay, and just trying to keep up appearances by having wives
There's also the fact that ifu were dominant role during sex regardless if they were copulating with a man or woman, the emperors were still straight in the eyes of their Roman peers
@@GoErikTheRed Correct. Both Trajan and Hadrian had wives who made a name for themselves (especially Pompeia Plotina, Trajan's wife) but there's a reason they were both childless.
Ancient drama is so fascinating
Can you make a part 2?
This was a lovely, thoughtful episode and the art in particular was fantastic-- it always is, but in this episode it was especially sympathetic and tender in a way that gave me a lot of big feelings. :') Thank you for discussing this topic.
So are you guys in the comment section just really *passionate* about the topic or just *uncomfortable* about yourselves?
It's almost cute how mad they get.
You forgot Constantine the Great's youngest son, Constans I who had male favorites among his among elite guard and barbarian hostages.
And was killed by the sadly heretical but very capable Constantius II.
@@andreascovano7742 Constantius II didn't kill his brother, but they did have an uneasy alliance as co-emperors. It was the usurper Magnentius in Gaul who managed to turn Constans legions against him and killed him.
That would be interesting, after all, he was the son of the first Christian emperor when gay stuff was beginning to be seen as sinful
@@maximusmedia8412
Small correction: Constantine *legalized* christianity and allowed religious freedom through the empire, but it is still unclear whether he himself ever converted.
@@sherlocksmuuug6692 Good point; in fact the overwhelming material evidence indicated that Constantine's 'deathbed conversion' story was a later fabrication.
Thank you. Please slow down; I lost so many words in your interesting video.
I imagine that, much like today, there was a lot of “don’t ask don’t tell” going on between freeborn men of any stripe.
Sponsored by the merchants guild. "Since Hadrian didn`t finish the job!"
A history Professor once told me, the Romas had a large book were all thinable heterosexual and homosexual "poses" were described and judged if the manly man would be regarded as "on top" enough.
Love it
Awesome video as always!
Thank you for making this video. Lots of ruffled feathers in this comment section but frankly I think it'll be a net positive for your channel. Those who are angered by this are most certainly not people who are interested in actual historical study and knowledge, but rather simply wish to be entertained and feel mildly intelligent at the same time (as a degreed historian, I could scream for hours about my loathing for the impact that RUclips pop-history content has had on history as a field of scholarship, but I don't feel like typing it at the moment). Invicta always cites their sources and this is a top-down pretty bulletproof video essay. Amusing as well to see that many of the detractors are commenting asking about why didn't you cover this thing or that thing, or random grab-bags of "well, actually" fodder and it all ends up being stuff... That Invicta addressed. LOL. C'est la vie. Thanks again for this video. Happy Pride month!
Dude calling this video bulletproof essay is not only stupid but also inaccurate since none of you people can even prove anything. Since most of the stuff written about the roman's are exaggerated at best or completely false at worst. Beside most of those sources if not all of the where written long after the end of roman empire. But i guessing thinking is to hard for certain people.
This.
100% Most of the angry comments are from the crowd of people who only like military history or the study of the 'great men' they think are cool. I remember how many feathers got ruffled when Tigerstar made a video about King Frederick the Great's sexuality a few years ago. Even I had this kind of view on history when I was younger. Now that I'm in university I cringe when I see people still resorting to false equivalencies and homophobia. I really hope that they're young and will grow out of it for their sakes.
You should do a video on the daily life of Roman emperors.
Invicta: REALLY INTERESTING video!
I’ve been subbed this channel ever since the Roshar special, I have to say I’ve been hooked. I never in a million years thought it would lead to learning about naughty femboy Emporers of Rome though. This was an altogether fascinating episode, I love when you all cover aspects of daily life or other areas like this that are easy to overshadow in “traditional” history content. Keep it up!
Leather Apron Club has a great video on this topic. Interesting how sources describe homosexuals in a mocking tone in the historical sources.
Leather is alt right joke.
The negative ancient sources about homosexuality come from the dichotomy top/bottom. The bottoms were discriminated , not the tops.
@aoxy87 It was negative for both top and bottom. Roman's had specific laws against it for around 2/3 of their 1200 year history. The historical documents we have show that it was used as an insult against rivals and mocked in theater. If it was acceptable for top vs bottom, then we wouldn't see that level of derision. Passives were definitely looked down on even more, but both were mocked and looked down upon.
@@thomassandoval8025 Not true at all. Roman empire didn't last 1200 years (Byzantine time was Christian so it doesn't count in this conversation). Romans definitely had nothing against if passive side was lesser in law, like servant or not free person.
'The historical documents we have show that it was used as an insult against rivals and mocked in theater. ' - And??? Today it is also mocked by many - does it mean it is universally not accepted? No - it simply means opinions are complex.
Ever heard of sappho?
Comment section isn't as funny as the one under al Muqqadimah video on homosexuality in the Islamic world, now that was a shit show 😂
Exactly
I'm a Syrian Arab lemme tell you why they get offended by that
A big portion of Muslims, specifically the Islamists, like to think that every single Caliph was generally a great man with only minor flaws
So to tell them that that caliph either was homosexual or tolerated homosexuality is akin to telling them he's a horrible Caliph
And another factor is this: since they're not a power in the modern world, a lot of them believe that the entire world is controlled by the west in a dystopian 1984 way, meaning the entirety of the historical narrative is controlled by westerners, ergo any claims about homosexuality in Islamic world are western propaganda to smear Islam
@@totalwartimelapses6359 Well thank you for giving me some insight as to why they view it that way, I did indeed see what you mentioned about them viewing it as western propaganda.
@@phillips9738 It's not western propaganda and never will be, this is propaganda by a certain tribe
@@lordwhyte i didn't say it was western propaganda, I said they viewed it as such.
@@totalwartimelapses6359 Well honestly The west control big part of narrative and moreover the media is really controlled by different lobbies the Zionist being the strongest especially in world banks it is not a lie or delusion
I never had a clue about this or even thought about it. Very informative.
Can you do a chapter on the Bar Kochba revolt in 132?
Elagabalus was not "born into the purple." I'm not sure the term was used at all prior to the 6th Century, and when it was used it generally meant an heir presumptive born while their royal parent was reigning. Although perhaps Elagabalus was born into the purple of the Royal House of Esme.
Yeah that may have been a bit of sloppy language. As you say they weren't born with the title lined up for them yet.
Finally there will be something about my beloved TRAJAN! I have recently admired his buildings in Egypt, Turkey and Greece!💗
I just love your channel!
Yes, finally something about Trajan. All they ever talk about is Hadrian
12:00 whose poem is this?
Thanks a lot for doing this. Really ❤️
What crazy examples. Elagabulos, what hell of a character. Suprising how much I did not know about him.
Today he would have definitely been labeled as a Liberal 😂😂
I already knew Hadrians story. But this went into great detail. Fascinating and very well presented
How is Hadrian exclusively homossxual, if he had a wife as well? Makes no sense!
@@Michael_the_Drunkard
I mean, you *can* marry someone without loving them...
Point of fact, such was the norm for almost all but a handful of nobles until fairly recently... Marriage was more about producing legitimate heirs than it was about love or s*x...
@@Michael_the_Drunkard They did have a notoriously poor marriage, which Hadrian only put up with for convenience. From the ancient sources, it seems that he did have a clear preference for men, but there's still a lot we don't know about the guy.
@@Michael_the_Drunkard Marriage was often used for political reasons. Marrying into a powerful clan raised man's social status, and was considered a sign of capability since he had to be accepted by the patriarch.
He was a femboi enjoyer
This is well known
He wasnt gay at all. He didnt take dicks like plenty mentioned here
He and trajan were cousins so its normal trajan favored him more than others
Can you please make a similar video about Greece?
Too compilacated; Greek society was (is) much like Greek grammar: for every rule there are a myriad exceptions.
There is a game called "Expedition Rome" that even as a "Male" Main Character, have a romance option on male characters from the start such as Bestia and Caeso.
Speaking of a game, Invicta, can make a review about "Expedition Rome" like you did to "Rome 2 Total War"?
Hbow good would you say this game is
@@danielchequer5842 excellent! Very immersive and if you like turn based rpg this would be a near perfect game. Every choice has consequences as well
Welp, this going to be an interesting comment section.
Try to stay calm.
dude most comments are going to be fine
@@handsomeboi3767 Yeah I hope so as well but the other part of me knows how the comment section can be.
@@LazyLifeIFreak and you are absolutely right the further down you go in the comments :)
Going from the start a little around 3:40, saying love and marriage are separate, but wasn't there that famous story about the emperor executing his wife for having a marathon of sex outside of the marriage? I didn't think too much about it until the parallel to modern day was being drawn
It was one thing if the husbands enjoyed himself outside the marriage, for women it was looked down upon.
Because that broke social mores (wives were expected to be faithful even if their husbands weren't) and if she got pregnant the emperor could've passed on everything he owned to someone who wasn't his actual heir. So in that case love and marriage is still separated.
Women in the prime of their life couldn't cheat at all, you risk the bearing of the other man's son. But older women were allowed.
Claudius and Valeria Messalina
Yes, the infamous Messaline, wife of Claudius. But it wasn't that an issue until she plotted against the Emperor and married one of her lover, who was a senator. She was executed because of that.
Also, the accusation of her competing against other prostitutes is quite dubious (the same accusation against Elagabal, so to be taken with a big chunk of salt).
Hadrian and Antinous relationships sound the most legitimate overall. Other pieces of history have more to do with "rich people being crazy" rather than being homosexual.
Mate, Trajan rubbing Hadrian is even making me uncomfortable
Yes, that bit was curiously unsettling, and I'm not averse to buggery.
Do you feel it now, Mr. Krabs?
It is bullshit tho
Dont take it as truth
Here is a list of the most mentioned by different sources:
-Adrian
-Nero
-Heliogabalus
Although there are more, those are just accusations and nothing is really "confirmed", so you need to be very skeptical of other accusations
Maybe in these specific cases but there’s plenty of proof of homosexual behavior being fairly widespread in Ancient Rome.
Hadrian really is one of the best
i was not prepared for elagabalus lmao
Roman legionnaire: dominant and infertile
Greek femboy slave: submissive and breedable