Well to be fair, a real diag would include looking at the actual wiring diagram. I have used topology for a diag but in the end I used the wiring diagram to actually dig in an do some work. Good observation however.
@@737mechanic Yes I 100% agree with, I would not buy a scantool based on if it has topology or not. If the scantool meets my needs, and just do happened to have topology then that great. I use it (loosely) as a guide but never as the gospel.
I asked the Snap-On guy on RUclips why Snap-On doesn't offer topology. He said because it's not reliable. Yet. So, yeah, the "topology map" is a gimmick.
@@keltecshooteruntil you get to graphing pids. Snap on does that extremely well. They sure make test drives a breeze with the event marker function too. The price we pay for that….
@@glenforehand Your kidding right. Snap on is the clunkiest POS I have ever used. The Autel smokes it for graphing and freezing and replaying data. At my old work, Zeus sat on apprentices box charging and Autel was always my first grab.
@ Autel makes a great tool but their scope isn't great, the graphing is definitely not better, and they sold out to NASTF- so there's that. Ya they stole a bunch of OEM info so they do more functions at times on foreign vehicles. The bottom line is we need multiple tools but for test drives and convenience of the scope I grab my Zeus quite often. Connector views are right there and the split screen is nice. The time it takes to get a pico etc ready I'm already done because everything is on one tool. The price is ridiculous but it does make money by saving a lot of time. When I had it on demo I recorded the time I saved in comparison to using my other equipment. It pays for itself if you have the workflow.
It's kind of impossible to make it work flawlessly unless the vehicles have a clear file somewhere in a module describing exactly what is present on that given car. This is how BMW does it with their vehicle orders, so the topology on a BMW with an aftermarket scan tool is exact because there is one or typically two modules with the vehicle configuration that these scan tools can pull and decode. You can tell when a car is going is going to have inaccurate topology when the tool asks you questions such as high/low level heater controls, transmission type, nav and so on. The other major problem that topology faces is that modules are mapped depending on how it talks to the gateway, but doesn't show with topology whether that module is a master to a sub bus that may be down, or whether it has multiple buses that go to the gateway for redundancy or as a passthrough from A-B that is shorter if taken through an extra data line routed through the gateway that the gateway is part of. These are the long and complicated answers to the problem. Topology in general is good to have at a glance, the real diagnosis is and will always be a factory diagram whether OEM or redrawn. In the future I can see it being perfect when cars are more technologically advanced, but at the moment it's pretty difficult with the cars out there to distinguish just exactly what is installed in a 2013 Cruze or a 2019 Camry.
It would be interesting to see which one is accurate, if either. I’ll admit (and lucky) that I’ve yet to be so deep in the weeds on a repair to even need topology. Edit: Insightful demo, I recall you making the same statement in another video and I moved topology way down on my hit list of needs. I’ve never had it and thus far don’t wish I did.
I have a launch pad 7 , the topology is awesome and useful because I am able to select a particular system to scan or just clear the codes in one system not disturbing the others.
I didn't see where your checking this against a diagram. Short of comparing against a diagram this is called talking shit. This is called misinformation
Hi I just need your advice on which scan tool I should go for a need that can show wiring diagrams folks as I am not mobile engineering and also an electrician
This couldn't come at a better time. I literally have the xtoool d8w and the IP819TP and have been undecided about which to keep. The D8W feels more solid, with a bigger screen back stand, and the main difference is that it has a topology. The IP819Tp is smaller, more outdated, and no type c charging, but it has TPMS functionality. For the topology, I was weighing keeping the D8W and buying the TP150 to go with it. But think I'm going to do without Topology and keep IP819TP
Just at a glance it looked like the Launch was more accurate. The Xtool seems to just bunches everything together but we wouldnt really know without confirming. I've heard Autel has the most accurate Topology, im sure its not without its faults though.
I would point this out to both manufacturers and see if they can update them and make them more accurate if enough people mention it maybe they will correct some of this and eventually they will be more accurate.
If you have no communication with a module, you need an idea where. If it's communicating past the module you know it's not broken wire. Go directly to the module. Saves tons of diag time. If a module is not communicating and the ones after are not communicating means u may have wiring issues
Reiterating that topology is not a wiring diagram. On one hand, Launch arranged the topology by bus (no need to have a radio or HVAC on a high speed bus). On the other Xtool groups the modules differently (power, chassis, body, other). Or alternately (PT CAN, COMFORT CAN, INFO CAN). Neither of these are wrong and shouldn't shake your confidence or trust. Clearly, each module has the same status on both scanners. What I found interesting is CAN 3,11 (PTLAN+/PTLAN-). While not being one of the 5 communication protocols to be OBD-II compliant, it was still discovered by the scanners. Perhaps there is a topology file to define the bus of each module. If so, edit the file to make whatever topology turns your crank and perhaps the diagnostic tool can dynamically display your topology.
Actually, both of these scanners are wrong. The scanners themselves do not find anything on any buses; the scanner manufacturer has to program the topology into the scan tool and they would have to program each and every car since all year makes and models are different. The purpose of the topology is to show the mechanic the layout of what modules are on what CAN bus, but unless it is the manufacturer's factory scan tool, this shows that you can't trust topology on aftermarket scanners. A factory scan tool has accurate topology and can be relied on.
@@737mechanic You are halfway toward knowing what you're talking about and I don't have time to educate. Disagree if you want but I'm unsubscribing so I won't see it.
Exactly, Obviously, the factory scan tool will have accurate topology and they should because of the price you pay. Aftermarket scan tools are a fraction of the price and cover all manufactures so they can't put the time and energy for every year make and model to make sure the topology is accurate at the price they offer their tools at.
Its a tool, not the end all be all. Still got to use your brain and schematics. I also second the dude that said you didn't even compare it to the factory schematics. I have found Launch to be pretty accurate.
So I will probably do another video because I have compared the Tacoma to the wiring diagram and neither machine is accurate. The point of this video is to show that people who think topology is everything should rethink it.
@@737mechanic If a scan tool has topology then it is going to have everything else that you need as far as bidirectional controls. There is not a tools out here that has topology and not the other stuff. Regardless topology is nice to have and serves as a starting point but it can't replace schematics which I don't think many people or any would ever claim. I will say it appears that Xtool is grouping the modules based on the location/type of module and is not showing you what network they are actually on. I think saying topology is not useful is a strange hill to die on.
@@737mechanic Using topology makes it faster to see what modules are online and a good Idea where they are on the network or in xtools case what part of the vehicle they would be on. Still useful and if I am going to spend at least 1g on a tool I expect it. Now you can get it on a lot of tools that are below $1000. So like I say with carrying my gun. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
@2:18 , Who uses topology as a wiring indicator? Everyone I know or watch research what network each module is on, I don't know of anyone who uses topology for that. What topology is used for is as a very convenient access point to access individual modules, rather than the crap menus provided with scan tools that don't have topology. @5:27 a failed module can take out the entire network as well. An internal module fault on a series circuit can do exactly what a broken wire will. Again I would love to know who uses topology instead of wiring diagrams to diagnose? The idea is as ludicrous as the action. pure laziness. LEARN how to read wiring diagrams. I'll tell you that topology is BETTER than ridiculous menus that have meaningless names and force you to screw around exploring the menus every time you plug into an unfamiliar vehicle. With topology you select the exact module you are concerned with in just 1 touch, instant access.
Professional mechanics use it all the time on factory scan tools. The entire reason topology was created in the first place was to show the layout of what modules are on what network bus and how they communicate with each other. Chrysler was the first, as far as I know, to use topology on wiTECH, which was so useful for seeing how all the modules related to each other that others started using it. Everyone I know who has access to factory topology uses it to see how the modules are laid out on the network so if an entire bus is dead you instantly see it on the scan tool and it gives you some direction right then. If it is not accurate, not only does it not need to be on the scan tool, but it has the potential to lead you down a rabbit hole. You may not realize an entire bus is dead because it may show some modules active on the same bus that is actually dead. You do realize what you are saying is ridiculous right, you say "With topology, you select the exact module you are concerned with in just 1 touch, instant access" You do realize in list mode not only does it give you the name of the module without having to click on it but you still click it with one touch and you are in it. List mode is faster than using topology to figure out what module is which. Point being Topology on aftermarket tools is a marketing gimmick that way to many people have fallen for.
Damn good video! I hope this video goes viral because there’s a false assumption out there that can really screw up a lot of good people. Thank you for sharing this information!
@@waterfall8526 why do you say this serious question I just ordered one after hours of research and most reviews I have seen were positive? If it turns out I don’t like it I can return it within 90 days.
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Well to be fair, a real diag would include looking at the actual wiring diagram. I have used topology for a diag but in the end I used the wiring diagram to actually dig in an do some work. Good observation however.
Totally agree which goes back to not being able to rely on the topology but many people seem to believe the y need a scan tool with topology.
@@737mechanic Yes I 100% agree with, I would not buy a scantool based on if it has topology or not. If the scantool meets my needs, and just do happened to have topology then that great. I use it (loosely) as a guide but never as the gospel.
@@katzenpapato be honest diagrams are often wrong too. It’s a pickle sometimes. lol
I asked the Snap-On guy on RUclips why Snap-On doesn't offer topology. He said because it's not reliable. Yet.
So, yeah, the "topology map" is a gimmick.
There's no comparison with speed and functionality between the autel , launch to the Zeus.
Its slow and cumbersome,
Snap On must think hundreds of service functions existent in other scan tools are also unreliable because their tools don't have them. (yet) (right)
@@keltecshooteruntil you get to graphing pids. Snap on does that extremely well. They sure make test drives a breeze with the event marker function too. The price we pay for that….
@@glenforehand Your kidding right. Snap on is the clunkiest POS I have ever used. The Autel smokes it for graphing and freezing and replaying data. At my old work, Zeus sat on apprentices box charging and Autel was always my first grab.
@ Autel makes a great tool but their scope isn't great, the graphing is definitely not better, and they sold out to NASTF- so there's that. Ya they stole a bunch of OEM info so they do more functions at times on foreign vehicles. The bottom line is we need multiple tools but for test drives and convenience of the scope I grab my Zeus quite often. Connector views are right there and the split screen is nice. The time it takes to get a pico etc ready I'm already done because everything is on one tool. The price is ridiculous but it does make money by saving a lot of time. When I had it on demo I recorded the time I saved in comparison to using my other equipment. It pays for itself if you have the workflow.
It's kind of impossible to make it work flawlessly unless the vehicles have a clear file somewhere in a module describing exactly what is present on that given car. This is how BMW does it with their vehicle orders, so the topology on a BMW with an aftermarket scan tool is exact because there is one or typically two modules with the vehicle configuration that these scan tools can pull and decode. You can tell when a car is going is going to have inaccurate topology when the tool asks you questions such as high/low level heater controls, transmission type, nav and so on.
The other major problem that topology faces is that modules are mapped depending on how it talks to the gateway, but doesn't show with topology whether that module is a master to a sub bus that may be down, or whether it has multiple buses that go to the gateway for redundancy or as a passthrough from A-B that is shorter if taken through an extra data line routed through the gateway that the gateway is part of. These are the long and complicated answers to the problem.
Topology in general is good to have at a glance, the real diagnosis is and will always be a factory diagram whether OEM or redrawn. In the future I can see it being perfect when cars are more technologically advanced, but at the moment it's pretty difficult with the cars out there to distinguish just exactly what is installed in a 2013 Cruze or a 2019 Camry.
It would be interesting to see which one is accurate, if either. I’ll admit (and lucky) that I’ve yet to be so deep in the weeds on a repair to even need topology.
Edit: Insightful demo, I recall you making the same statement in another video and I moved topology way down on my hit list of needs. I’ve never had it and thus far don’t wish I did.
I have a launch pad 7 , the topology is awesome and useful because I am able to select a particular system to scan or just clear the codes in one system not disturbing the others.
We can see that the Xtool just has faux 'topology' map. It only groups the modules by category and not necessarily canbus networks.
I didn't see where your checking this against a diagram. Short of comparing against a diagram this is called talking shit. This is called misinformation
Topolgy helps but is not enough standalone. You really will need proper repair info to supplement the scan tool/topology.
Hi I just need your advice on which scan tool I should go for a need that can show wiring diagrams folks as I am not mobile engineering and also an electrician
This couldn't come at a better time. I literally have the xtoool d8w and the IP819TP and have been undecided about which to keep. The D8W feels more solid, with a bigger screen back stand, and the main difference is that it has a topology. The IP819Tp is smaller, more outdated, and no type c charging, but it has TPMS functionality. For the topology, I was weighing keeping the D8W and buying the TP150 to go with it. But think I'm going to do without Topology and keep IP819TP
What you prefer xtool or launch? I been eyeing the same xtool you have
I like them both but I prefer my Launch Pro3 Ace. When it comes to programming keys though I grab my xtool.
Just at a glance it looked like the Launch was more accurate. The Xtool seems to just bunches everything together but we wouldnt really know without confirming. I've heard Autel has the most accurate Topology, im sure its not without its faults though.
I agree but of course, Autel is a more expensive scan tool, so they probably put more time into the topology to ensure it is as accurate as possible.
Yeah I agree they don’t show proper can or Lin ect . I just look for failures in a module then use wiring diagrams to check lines
I would point this out to both manufacturers and see if they can update them and make them more accurate if enough people mention it maybe they will correct some of this and eventually they will be more accurate.
thanks for this interesting video
Nice insight
I could care less about topology. Does it do a function I need it to do? I don’t need a pretty picture
If you have no communication with a module, you need an idea where. If it's communicating past the module you know it's not broken wire. Go directly to the module. Saves tons of diag time. If a module is not communicating and the ones after are not communicating means u may have wiring issues
Reiterating that topology is not a wiring diagram.
On one hand, Launch arranged the topology by bus (no need to have a radio or HVAC on a high speed bus).
On the other Xtool groups the modules differently (power, chassis, body, other).
Or alternately (PT CAN, COMFORT CAN, INFO CAN).
Neither of these are wrong and shouldn't shake your confidence or trust. Clearly, each module has the same status on both scanners.
What I found interesting is CAN 3,11 (PTLAN+/PTLAN-). While not being one of the 5 communication protocols to be OBD-II compliant, it was still discovered by the scanners. Perhaps there is a topology file to define the bus of each module. If so, edit the file to make whatever topology turns your crank and perhaps the diagnostic tool can dynamically display your topology.
Actually, both of these scanners are wrong. The scanners themselves do not find anything on any buses; the scanner manufacturer has to program the topology into the scan tool and they would have to program each and every car since all year makes and models are different.
The purpose of the topology is to show the mechanic the layout of what modules are on what CAN bus, but unless it is the manufacturer's factory scan tool, this shows that you can't trust topology on aftermarket scanners.
A factory scan tool has accurate topology and can be relied on.
@@737mechanic You are halfway toward knowing what you're talking about and I don't have time to educate. Disagree if you want but I'm unsubscribing so I won't see it.
@@cknox64 Sounds good dude.
Topology map in those 3rd party scan tools it is just a cool feature.
SO brand specific scan tool (Chevy Ford and Jeep...) have accurate topology of modules connected on the bus ?? Generic DO NOT .... Nice video fella
Exactly, Obviously, the factory scan tool will have accurate topology and they should because of the price you pay.
Aftermarket scan tools are a fraction of the price and cover all manufactures so they can't put the time and energy for every year make and model to make sure the topology is accurate at the price they offer their tools at.
@@737mechanic Right on Sir. Have yourself a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Peace too. vf
Its a tool, not the end all be all. Still got to use your brain and schematics. I also second the dude that said you didn't even compare it to the factory schematics. I have found Launch to be pretty accurate.
So I will probably do another video because I have compared the Tacoma to the wiring diagram and neither machine is accurate.
The point of this video is to show that people who think topology is everything should rethink it.
@@737mechanic If a scan tool has topology then it is going to have everything else that you need as far as bidirectional controls. There is not a tools out here that has topology and not the other stuff. Regardless topology is nice to have and serves as a starting point but it can't replace schematics which I don't think many people or any would ever claim. I will say it appears that Xtool is grouping the modules based on the location/type of module and is not showing you what network they are actually on. I think saying topology is not useful is a strange hill to die on.
@@737mechanic Using topology makes it faster to see what modules are online and a good Idea where they are on the network or in xtools case what part of the vehicle they would be on. Still useful and if I am going to spend at least 1g on a tool I expect it. Now you can get it on a lot of tools that are below $1000. So like I say with carrying my gun. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
Need to compare them to factory scan tools this is useless for comparison.
@2:18 , Who uses topology as a wiring indicator? Everyone I know or watch research what network each module is on, I don't know of anyone who uses topology for that. What topology is used for is as a very convenient access point to access individual modules, rather than the crap menus provided with scan tools that don't have topology.
@5:27 a failed module can take out the entire network as well. An internal module fault on a series circuit can do exactly what a broken wire will.
Again I would love to know who uses topology instead of wiring diagrams to diagnose? The idea is as ludicrous as the action. pure laziness. LEARN how to read wiring diagrams.
I'll tell you that topology is BETTER than ridiculous menus that have meaningless names and force you to screw around exploring the menus every time you plug into an unfamiliar vehicle. With topology you select the exact module you are concerned with in just 1 touch, instant access.
Professional mechanics use it all the time on factory scan tools. The entire reason topology was created in the first place was to show the layout of what modules are on what network bus and how they communicate with each other. Chrysler was the first, as far as I know, to use topology on wiTECH, which was so useful for seeing how all the modules related to each other that others started using it. Everyone I know who has access to factory topology uses it to see how the modules are laid out on the network so if an entire bus is dead you instantly see it on the scan tool and it gives you some direction right then.
If it is not accurate, not only does it not need to be on the scan tool, but it has the potential to lead you down a rabbit hole. You may not realize an entire bus is dead because it may show some modules active on the same bus that is actually dead.
You do realize what you are saying is ridiculous right, you say "With topology, you select the exact module you are concerned with in just 1 touch, instant access" You do realize in list mode not only does it give you the name of the module without having to click on it but you still click it with one touch and you are in it. List mode is faster than using topology to figure out what module is which.
Point being Topology on aftermarket tools is a marketing gimmick that way to many people have fallen for.
Damn good video! I hope this video goes viral because there’s a false assumption out there that can really screw up a lot of good people. Thank you for sharing this information!
First and for most there the same just different layout so really make no difference
Xtools its worst scan to buy
@@waterfall8526 why do you say this serious question I just ordered one after hours of research and most reviews I have seen were positive? If it turns out I don’t like it I can return it within 90 days.
I still like my xtool especially when it comes to programming keys.